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So look for Leading Saints in your inbox by going to leading saints.org/fourteen, or click the link in the show notes. So my name is Kurt Frankham, and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints, and obviously the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now, I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog, and it grew from there. By the time, uh, 2014 came around, we started the podcast, and that's really when it got some, uh, traction and took off.
Uh, 2016, we became a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now, this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling. And we simply ask them, how is it that you lead?
And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good. And, uh, we just talk about, uh, sharing what the other guy's doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, okay, I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so we publish these how I lead segments to share. I wanna welcome in Angela OTA
to the Leading Saints podcast. Welcome. - Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. - Yeah. Now, I'm, I'm, correct me if I'm wrong and, and how I'm remembering this, but you reached out to me about, uh, having more content out there about just the, the experience of single adults in the church, not necessarily young single adults, you know, in that, uh, 18 to 29 age, age range.
Um, and we went back and forth, and the more I talked to you, the more I felt like, you know, it seems like Angela has some perspective here, that, uh, would be worth sharing. And so I said, well, why don't we sit down and just have a conversation and see what we can learn. Um, and here we are. So are you ready? Jump into this - . I'm ready, - . Nice. Maybe just give us a little bit of your, uh, your background.
I mean, obviously you're, uh, since the topic of this conversation, you are a single adult, but maybe Mm-Hmm. , uh, bring, give us some general background of yours. - Yeah. So, um, I grew up in Cody, Wyoming, and I'm currently living here in Saratoga, and I'm a speech pathologist and Oh, really? So, yeah, so work for an elementary school and, um, just, um, and currently I'm serving as a Relief Society president in my ward. And I was in a mid singles ward prior to this and mm-Hmm.
, um, after the change from visiting teaching to ministry, and they talked about how 14-year-old, um, young women are able to now be ministers like that just put kind of like this prompting or thought in my head of like, oh, that would be so neat to, to serve with that, to like, have that be your Yeah. Companion. And also, um, just like, kind of missing the primary kids and just having that variety in the ward.
And so I thought, I guess I'll, maybe I'll see about like going to the family ward and so that I went to the family ward and that first Sunday I kind of was confirmation that I was supposed to like change my record. So here we are. Wow. - . That's great. That's great. How long were you in this ward until you were called as Relief Site president? And what's the story behind, uh, you being called?
- Yeah, so, uh, it wasn't too long after I moved to the ward that I was called as the first counselor in the Relief Society. Um, and then it was about a year after that is called to be the Relief Society President. And so it's been about three and a half years, four years. - Wow. Okay. Yeah. And, um, what, what do you remember from just starting this, this calling as Relief Society president? Just like picking counselors or, or Mm-Hmm. establishing a rhythm to it.
- Yeah. Um, I think like with any one you have like the initial feeling of being a little overwhelmed. Um, especially because I knew some of the, the commitments that it would involve, like the time commitment and just our ward is a transient ward and a lot of, um, needs. And so that, I was a little bit nervous about that, especially because I work full-time and so it's not, you know, I only have a certain amount of time in the day.
Um, so I was a little bit worried about that, but I, I knew that it was gonna be a great opportunity for, um, hopefully to, to impact the lives of the sisters in the ward and to strengthen my testimony and hopefully strengthen their testimony. Um, as far as like counselors and secretary, there's been a lot , um, just 'cause our ward is transient, but that initial, um, when I was able to go to the temple and then just think about it and I, I knew pretty, pretty, um, soon after I was called.
And, um, and then each subsequent like new counselor or new secretary that I've had to call, um, sometimes it's been a little bit of a process, but, um, God has always like, yeah, - That's great. Given - Me the name Uhhuh - . And, uh, is there a lot of, uh, temporary housing, like apartment buildings and things? Is that what makes it transient or? - It is all, uh, uh, we have an apartment complex. Wow. And then wow. Condos and town homes, so there's no single family homes in - Ward.
Oh, nice. Oh, that's great. I I love to hear, uh, when wards are, are like that. 'cause that's where when I was bishop, that was the makeup of, of my ward. You know, I lived in a condo and a bunch of apartment buildings and it sometimes breaks my heart when I see, you know, maybe sometimes they'll get really creative with drawing the lines and splitting up apartment buildings.
And I think, man, like, you know, it's such an experience for those individuals, uh, even though, you know, I was a young bishop and probably wasn't prepared, but Mm-Hmm. and I grew so, so much from that, so. That's awesome. - Yeah. And it's nice just that everyone is like really close by and just, I feel like it, um, we really have to take care of each other. 'cause a lot of people are kind of in transition or they're newly married couples and they're away from family and so it's, yeah.
It's kind of a neat setup, so, - Yeah. That's awesome. Alright, well let's uh, jump into the principles a little bit here or, or ease into them. Did you feel like as a single adult, I mean, maybe you didn't even realize there was a change in the release society presence coming, but did you feel like you'd be on the list of options of, of people to replace the release society president? - Um, you, I dunno, to be honest with you, I I,
- Okay. You didn't, - Don't know if I, I it's not a thought you had or I think I kind have had a, a little bit of a feeling, but it's kind of one of those things that I, I you're just busy with life and work and serving and so, - Yeah. Yeah, sure. - Yeah. But I, when I was initially called, I was like, most of our ward is, is is married couples, like what? Mm-Hmm. do I have to offer to help them? Like, I don't. And so that was a, a concern that I had.
- So you say, at least for you, naturally there's sort of this, this thought that goes through your mind of thinking, you know, I'm, I'm sort of in different category as they are, you know. Mm-Hmm. that may sounds a little bit harsh, but - No, that's exactly it. - Feeling like, yeah. That maybe you can't, you're not ready or prepared to, to be their leader.
- Yeah. Yeah. Or just like, can they come to me with their problems when it's something that they know I've never experienced or have very little experience with, so, - Yeah. Interesting. Alright, so this first principle you have is, uh, says the principles of effective leadership are the same whether you are single or married and Mm-Hmm. and just to focus on those. Right. And, and this is sort of this well yeah, of course.
But, uh, what, what, what led you to this, this principle and maybe unpack it for us. - Yeah. So, um, I guess just no matter who you are, you've gotta serve with love. You've gotta follow the promptings of the spirit. You've gotta delegate and delegate clearly. Um, and the focus should be on people. And that, like, it doesn't, that doesn't change if you're married or single. And that was a realization that I came to as I was serving, like, you know, just that is what an effective leader does.
And you can do that as a single person in a family ward. You can use those principles, you can, you can love them. And that doesn't mean necessarily you know, what they're going through, but you can empathize and maybe, um, know kind of the feeling. 'cause we've all felt similar feelings. We felt grief, we felt loneliness. We felt betrayal. Like we've all felt those feelings.
And maybe the circumstance is different, but just focusing on empathizing because you know, the, the feeling, maybe not the circumstance, but the feeling. - Yeah. And I'm just thinking of that maybe that single adult early society president newly called that's listening to this and the, like, the big overarching principle that comes like is just take a deep breath and realize you're, you're not that different.
You know? And, and you can do this and the same principles apply and, uh, move forward with confidence. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. God called you for a reason and he is gonna help you so, so much. So, - Yeah. Awesome. So the next principle you put here is I would love to hear ideas about how building connections relate to sisters who are married. So what, what are some of those that you came up with? - Um, so I think you just start with the things that you have in common.
Um, we had a sister in our ward who was single, like, and then another sister that they both liked to run and walk. So they got together and went running every morning. Um, and so I think you just focus on what you have in common and just remove that category of single or married. And first of all, see yourselves as sisters in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like view people that way. And as a single person, like I love hearing about like the kids or hearing how you met your husband.
Like, it's okay to talk about those things and, um, because that is your life. And so don't be afraid to, as a single person, don't be afraid to ask those things. And just as a married person, like that's your life. And, and talk to them about it. Like know that a lot of single people love to hear about the kids and just, I don't know, just don't be afraid to be you and remove that stigma of single and married - .
Yeah. Is there anything particular you do as far as relating to the other women in your, in your relief society? Is it mainly like being aware of hobbies or activities they like to do? Or what comes to mind? - I think yeah. Yes, that, um, I think also just listening. I think, um, when people feel listened to, that builds a connection. Um, and that, that connection is what can form a friendship. So I think just listening to people
and you can do that whether you're married or single. So - , imagine that. Right. And excuse my left turn here, but you know, just when you talk about listening, it makes me wonder as far as, uh, ministering and, uh, you know, the ministering interviews or things like that. Is there anything you found that, that has worked well for you or approach you, you do to, so that you're in those situations where you can listen or, or do visits in the home or? - Yeah, we do visits in the home every month.
Um, but for as far as ministering, um, we, I had an interesting experience. We were, so we have like magnet boards of all the sisters, and we were kind of cool , we were, the people that had moved, were taken off and we were kind of filling in those spots and adding the new people. And I was kind of, um, maybe, oh, maybe this person would go with this person 'cause they have kids about the same age. And we were going like that.
And my, one of my counselors just said, you know what, Angela, I actually feel like we need to mix it up. Like, let's mix up the, the older ladies with the younger ladies. And like, I feel like that could create some bridges in the Lord. And as soon as she said that, um, the spirit felt the, the spirit filled the apartment. So we didn't just put, 'cause we actually have quite a few, like, um, maybe divorced women in the ward.
Um, not many people that haven't been married like me, but some divorced women. Um, and we didn't just put them all together as companions. Like we tried to, to mix it up. And I think that is, um, I don't know, I just felt like the spirit guided that, that decision so that the, they could feed off of each other.
- Love it. Anything else as far as just connecting with the sisters, uh, and, and relating to them that, that you haven't mentioned, - Be interested in their lives, like just be completely interested in, in their lives, generally interested. - Awesome. So, so this, uh, next principle is one that, I mean, no word escapes, just the, the trauma, the heartbreak that happens in individual lives, whether it's a divorce, whether it's a miscarriage, a uh, infertility struggles.
I mean, the, the list goes on and obviously this is the relief society, right? And we would hope that people would find relief as they engage with the society, but it is a daunting task at times, especially when it feels like it's on your shoulders as the relief study president. So, uh, take us down that path as far as how you, uh, approach that. Uh, obviously I don't anticipate you figured it out by any means, but what does that look like?
- Um, it looks like not being afraid to ask the hard questions and to go into sister's houses and ask them, how are you really doing? Or tell me what happened. Um, there's definitely been couples, um, that maybe are going through a harder time. We had a young couple that lost their first baby when she was eight months pregnant. Um, and that's not something like I've had any experience with, but I wasn't not gonna go see her.
I wasn't, I was gonna go see her and we just hugged each other and just cried together. Um, yeah. And because, yeah. And so I think that's just being willing to have those hard conversations and, and be there for them, I think is is part of it.
- Yeah. Do you feel like sometimes the dynamic arises, whether or not, not that you're saying it, they're saying it, but you know, here's somebody weeping over a loss and you know, they have two other kids and here you are, you know, you haven't even had an opportunity to have one child or a marriage Mm-Hmm. does. And again, not that you lead out with that or, but does that sometimes become a thing or is it pretty easy to move past that?
- Um, it's easy to get over that because I hope that alls they feel for me is love. And yeah, I feel like that and that they just, I hope they just feel that I love them and that's why I'm there. And I, I, you know, there's not any advice that sometimes you can give in hard situations that I try to just come from a place of love and empathy and listening.
And, um, so that, to be honest, I don't feel like that has been so much of a, a a a point of sisters have felt awkward, like, oh, well Angela doesn't know what she's going, what I'm going through, and here she is trying to, that hasn't, I think because I, and as a presidency we've worked really hard to make sure that the sisters know that we genuinely love them and care for them. Yeah. We say it often.
- And even just that example of being willing to like, go to their home, sit with them in that heartbreak, uh, regardless of each other's backgrounds or what each, each individual has experienced. 'cause that hurt is real in that moment, and you're willing to sit with them as they endure it. That's awesome. Um, tell me about, um, you have no here as far as about Mother's Day, which is , uh, can be a tricky dynamic on all levels.
Yeah. But even for single, maybe in a unique way for single sisters, uh, what comes, any stories come to mind as far as, uh, mother's Day? - Yeah. Well, I feel like, um, sister UBank had made a post on Mother's Day, like, I think it was just that first, uh, mother's Day that she was called in the General Leaf Society presidency. And she is single and doesn't have kids. And it was just a beautiful post.
And I remember, and this was a couple mother's day ago, um, I just remember feeling like there's a lot of sisters that can have some anxiety around Mother's Day. Um, whether it's because for, for a variety of reasons, I guess I should say. And I just felt really strongly that, you know, to, to express love and to, to express that. So I did a, a, a post or, and I sent it as a mass email to them.
And the response, um, just I felt like it, I felt like God through those words, just maybe helped relieve a little bit of anxiousness on Mother's Day. And it was just a letter to the Sisters that I mass email that says, dear sisters, I'm Cutely aware that there are a variety of emotions associated with Mother's Day. For some women, it's a simple, it's simply a day to celebrate their mom.
And or being a mom for others, this may be the first Mother's Day without their mom and the waves of grief are hitting in full force. So others are struggling to build a healthy relationship with their mother and more than the type of mother they wish they could have. Some women yearn to be mothers, but it feels like a dream that will never be reached. There are women who have lost children and ache to hold them again or ache because they never got to hold them.
There are women who wish their children were making different choices and his heartbreak because of the pain their children are going through. I love the way Sister Sh Bank expressed your feelings in the spot. And then I put a link to the blog Sisters, please hear me loud and clear, whatever your circumstance, the Relief Society lesson on Sunday will be for you. And our bishop taught a great lesson about the Parable of the 10 versions.
And I just didn't want any sisters to feel like that they couldn't come to church on Mother's Day because it would be too hard for them. Like, I just didn't want that. And hopefully that that helped a little bit. - Um, so you did, you sent that out like the week before Mother's Day? Mm-Hmm. - , yeah. - Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Just, and that's a, that's a, you know, good general leadership principle as well. There's sort of the anticipation, right?
You're anticipating, you know, how are people gonna show up and feel? Sometimes we wait for that moment to sort of then catch them or, you know, diffuse the, the tension. But to anticipate and take some steps prior to really help people feel welcome. So they'll come. 'cause many times maybe if they didn't get that email, many wouldn't have come. - Um, there was another experience that I had.
'cause I think one thing that it's hard to find a balance of making sure that single sisters feel included, but obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ is about families. And the, the ordinance and the temple, the ceiling ordinance is like, I mean, that's, that's the goal. Um, and so, and we wanna strengthen, um, husbands and wives like that is, you can't just not focus on that as well.
And so I remember sitting in, so our Stake Relief Society president and our former stake, um, she had all the relief Society presidents come in and talk, like we had like a brunch. And one of the Relief society presidents asked like, what is your ward doing to strengthen husbands and wives? And kind of conversation got going and the stake relief study president, who I will, I'm so grateful, she said, Angela, I think you have something to say about this.
Um, because there, it just felt like that single sisters were not being focused on, or single adults were not like that. And I gave an answer, but if I had to go back, - Now's your chance, Angela. Yeah. we're going back in time. - Yeah. If I had to go back, I would say focus on Jesus Christ. 'cause whether you're married or single, that is, you need the atonement of Jesus Christ.
And focusing on Christ is gonna strengthen, uh, husbands and wives and their relationship, their covenant relationship, and it's gonna strengthen single people who have to rely on the Savior as well. Um, and so if I had to go back, that's what I would say is focus on Christ and the atonement. - Yeah. Love it. - And, and I, I was the only single sister at that brunch and all eyes lit on me and I said, - . - So if I had to go back, that's what I would say. Now, .
- Yeah. And and similar to your first point, right? That leadership, effective leadership is, is the same, the gospel's the same, right? Yeah. I mean, obviously we have certain ordinances and ideals that we reach for and encourage people to, to walk towards, but uh, you know, at the end of the day, Jesus Christ will sit with any of us and strengthen us and make covenants with us and, you know, so we can, uh, face mortality. - Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Awesome.
- All right. Next principle here is, uh, just balancing, making sure that those that are, uh, single fill included and integrated in the world in the ward while we strengthen husband and wives is that's similar to sort of that, that story. Yeah. Anything else to add to that that we haven't covered already? - Um, one thing that, um, I brought up in Ward Council is, um, there was about four months the, our ward was, it was a husband and wife speaking in Sacrament meeting.
And that is all who is speaking except for - Week after week, right? Yeah. - Uhhuh except for Fast Sundays. And I, we had a couple high counselors speaking. Um, and you know, before I, you know, brought this up, I just made sure that I had it right. So I asked the clerk, I'm like, can you gimme a list of who's spoken in second meetings since, you know, since for the last four months? And as I looked through the list, it was, it was a married couple every single time.
Hmm. And so, you know, I, I brought that up at Ward Council. I said, you know, that's fine to do, but when it is almost every sacrament meeting, you know, and we have this many single people in the ward, what message does that send to them? Um, and so, and I think, so we've tried to mix it up a little bit and just make sure that it's not like, not necessarily husband and wife speaking all the time, um, or always a husband and wife saying the opening and closing prayer.
'cause I think, um, unintentionally that can send a message of, of who's important in the ward, who gets asked to do things - Uhhuh, and you know, bless the hearts of our bishop Ricks out there. I know, you know, they're, they're doing their best. And, and sometimes, but this is, this can manifest itself in so many areas of leadership that Mm-Hmm. The practical sort of drowns out the personal Right. That it's so, it was so practical. I, I have to make one phone call Yeah.
You know, to this, this ale. And then I get two speakers for one phone call or, and mm-Hmm. , you know, and there's so many couples moving in, especially maybe in, in apartments or newlyweds or what Mm-Hmm. . And that, you know, , it's just easier that way. And then we get, and we don't realize we're doing it, but sometimes it, it takes someone like you who maybe has an different perspective to raise your hand and say, Hey, time out a minute. Like, let's regroup
and think about what we're doing here. Um, - And I, I think that says something about the, the culture that the Bishop created in the Ward council that I felt like I could, could mention that. Yeah, that's cool. And to, to bring that up and to their everlasting credit, they said, you know what? Good point. You know, and have made a set, um, shift and have, have tried. Yeah. And that, I think that, so I think it's, I think any ward council people need to feel comfortable speaking up.
And I think that's another principle of leadership, whether it's in a presidency, ward council. Like, you just need to make sure that people feel comfortable saying their perspective, because all of us have different perspectives. - Awesome. Um, and you know, in that word council dynamic, and it's cool to hear that, you know, it's encouraging to hear that that culture exists where you didn't feel or, or you did feel comfortable raising your hand and, and saying something.
Um, speak to me about the dynamic of you working with the bishop. You working with the elders quorum. I'm not to claim that your word has figured it out, but this is a question that a lot of wards have. Okay. What works for you? What doesn't, I mean, what, what struggles have you gone through or what successes have you had there? - Um, I think something that has worked really well, um, is our, so we, we got a new bishop a few months ago, and our previous bishop did this.
He said, Angela, I wanna meet with you once a month, um, just to touch base. And so our current bishop has done the same thing. Like, I just set up an appointment and I, I meet with him and we discuss things. So I think that is something that has really helped, um, the elders crime. Another thing that I think is really helpful is that the elders Corn president and I have a really open communication there, to be honest.
There's been some times where I've been a little frustrated and I can just call and say, I just need to vent just for a little bit. And he is so great and Oh, cool. You know, and just things like that. And so I think just open communication has been really, really helpful.
- Awesome. Well, let's take a moment here that obviously by example you've shown that you're, you know, like when you reached out to me, I, I know that you had no intention of, of wanting to be on the podcast, but here we are and we we did it. We recorded it, we did it. Um, and it's always the leaders that think, I don't really have much to share, you know, but you shared some things and I think it'll bless the, the lives of, of many that listen.
And so I hope So what request would you send out there to all the single Adult Relief Society presidents? What questions would you have for them? Or what would you like to hear from their experience? - I would say, how do you balance work life and church service when work life takes so much time outta your day. Yeah. - Love it. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll put it out there.
And we encourage individuals to, uh, step forward, reach out to me and or, uh, have a good friend, a counselor maybe who wants to nominate , uh, their, their friend who's a release site president. And, uh, 'cause this is how we find and, and share great content and leading Saints is, uh, getting those emails and then they lead to conversations like this. So That's awesome. Uh, Angela, last question I have for you.
As you reflect on your time as a Relief Society president, as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? - Because I think it has expanded my heart to love people that I don't necessarily wouldn't, uh, be buddy-buddy with, or go out of my way to build a friendship with. Um, and it's expanded my heart. And that I think is the essence of being a disciple of Jesus Christ is, is loving those around us. - And that concludes this how I lead interview.
I hope you enjoyed it. And, uh, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this, this experience. And this is how we, how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guy's doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, uh, that's, that's where great leadership's discovered, right?
So we would love to have you, uh, share this with, uh, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also, if you know somebody, uh, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the How I leads segment, uh, reach out to us. Go to leading scenes.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, uh, see if we can line 'em up.
So again, go to leading saints.org/contact and there you can submit all the information and let us know, and maybe they will be on a feature how I lead Segment on the Leading Saints podcast. And remember to get on the email newsletter list, simply go to leading saints.org/fourteen. - It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the Declaration was made concerning, the only and only true and living church upon the face of the Earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.