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what Leading Saints is. Here it goes. Leading Saints is an organization that started as a hobby blog in 2010 and then really caught some traction in 2014 when the podcast started. We talk about all things leadership in the context of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. We aren't owned by the church, but we have a great relationship with them and always aim to be faith promoting even though we talk about the tough
topics. My name is Kurt Frankem. I'm generally the voice you hear as the host of the podcast. I've tried to get other hosts, but people demand my smooth tone, and I really enjoy it. Check out leading saints.org to really get into the weeds of what Leading Saints is and learn all about our mission to help Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead. So I came across an article in the Desert News a few months back by Megan Koehler, and it was about the case for low
production church. Right? There are so many other faith traditions, denominations who really get the excitement going, the entertainment, the lights, the fog machines, the bands, the music. Right? Where ours is maybe more of a traditional approach to a more more quiet, reverent approach to to worship, right, in the sacrament meeting. And some may even frame that, well, it's kinda boring going to sacrament meeting every week. But, actually, what if it that's an asset that we have, a benefit
to stimulate deeper faith? And we talk about just that that tradition of how we typically carry out meetings, maybe some things we could
do better. But for the most part, how we're doing a pretty good job, and hopefully you'll find encouragement in this that our faith tradition can stimulate faith, especially as we encourage people to commit to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to sacrifice for the gospel of Jesus Christ, doing those difficult things that actually stimulates more church attendance, more engagement in the gospel, and hopefully a more sanctifying life. So here's my interview with Megan Koehler.
Alright. Megan Koehler, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Thanks. I'm glad to be here. And we've we've interacted here and there at different events. I'd see the fair conference, and you've been on a few other podcasts and but your name often pops up in the desert news with your what what's your title there? I'm just a contributor. Contributor. Yeah. Nice. I well, the so the name of our column, it's with Jacob Hess and Stephen Cranny. It's
Latter day Saint voices. So Nice. So you're all you're typically writing from a place of, like, a Latter day Saint theme. Yeah. That's kind of our explicit mission is is to be able to talk about church topics from a believers Yeah. Point of view. Do they typically give you, like, a topic to go with, or you just come up with your own? It's more often, it's just kind of what I want to talk about,
which is good because I think Yeah. You could easily get really reactive with how much the church is in the news, and then sometimes we are writing responses. Nice. Well and I forget sent me the article or and we connected. I mean, it sort of came at different angles, and so this is meant to be. You'll see what comes from. It. But you wrote an article called The Case for Low Production Church. Is there a story about how this topic sorta hit the top of your list of
Yeah. If well, it was something that I've been sort of interested in, you know, just some of the data behind, you know, what drives church attendance. And it had just I'd been reading a book called The Great Dethurching, which I I think I referenced in the article. And that's by 2 pastors. Right? Or Yes. Okay. Yes. I I know one of them is a pastor. And it was also written using a bunch of data that was collected by Ryan Berg who he sometimes writes for the Deseret News as well.
But then I I was on Twitter, and I saw somebody, you know, comment that they just wished you know, he said, like, I don't wanna be entertained at church. And I thought that was really funny because it's like, I know I know the perfect place for you. You don't want an entertaining church experience. Yeah. But then it just got me thinking a
little more seriously about that. Yeah. And that's the and I'm so excited to explore this concept because from a leadership standpoint, you feel this pressure of, like, you know, I we don't do the bands and the light shows or whatever, but I want this to be a positive experience and what should I do and kinda feel this pressure of, I want this to be worth showing up for, the Sunday experience. Right? Yeah. And it
does sometimes get a bad rap. But, you know, it's when you you put up against maybe a more evangelical Protestant tradition, it's like, wow. Your church is kinda boring or, you know Yeah. But and sometimes it's easy. It's like, yeah. We should change that, but maybe we shouldn't. Right? And so I it's just an interesting dynamic to start with. It was like, what are we really trying to accomplish there? And should it be entertaining? I mean, I this should be engaging, I
would hope, to some degree. Right? Yeah. And I I think what you're asking, like, what are we trying to accomplish? I think that's really what it comes down to. Because I think our intuition is that the more exciting we can make the church experience, you know, then the more attendance will draw on. And, you know, it's looking like the data on this is still kind of limited, but it's, you know, what we have now is kinda
suggesting that that's not the case. Yeah. Being more entertaining is not necessarily it's not conducive to committed discipleship. Mhmm. Yeah. And our faith tradition is interesting because we don't necessarily like, the church leaders don't feel the pressure of, like, trying to market the church experience as much as, like, if I plant a church as a evangelical pastor. Yes. It's like, alright. I gotta get people in this seat. An entrepreneur. Right. Yeah.
And, you know, and it is typically their full time focus and their livelihood. And so it's like, this church has to succeed or I I get in the middle of business. I don't have, you know, money to feed my family. I have to move on to something. Right? So there is that sort of nuance, right, that everybody's assigned to a ward and you just have to go there. Like
it or not, here we go. Right? And, you know, that aspect of the church, I think, ends up being helpful in more than just that it takes some of the pressure off of the leadership. Right? Because the church isn't gonna go away if your ward is boring or something. But also the fact that the ward experience is so similar no matter where you are, I think that really helps with attendance too.
Because one of the things that comes through in that book, The Great Dethurching, is that people tend to fall away because, like, maybe they move to a new area. Mhmm. And that process of getting, like, reintegrated into a church family, there's a lot that goes into that as an individual. But in the LDS church, because everything's kind of the same and you show up and they're gonna give you a responsibility, it really integrates people into the church really quickly no matter where
they end up. Yeah. And this with this, the great de churching, maybe give us the premise of this. Is it mainly just talking about the general, you know, the general trend of people becoming less religious Yeah. And attending church? Or Yeah. It's more about why. Mhmm. Why that's happening. And there's a lot of drawing there's big numbers. There's, you know, like I said, Ryan Birch collected a bunch of data that was used for that book.
But there's also, just talking to individuals about their experience and trying to understand what goes into people sort of falling away. So, yeah, I think it's a really you know, if church attendance and religiosity in America is important to you, that's that's definitely a book you wanna read.
Yeah. I guess this came from that, you know, that tweet you saw as far as, you know, I don't need to be entertained to church, but because there is this feeling, at least, maybe outside our faith, and sometimes it pops up in our faith, but over engineering the experience. Right? And I must admit, I may sometimes be
the lead person with the leading saints. We're talking about innovative ways of approaching things, you know, inviting people to come into Christ, but, you know, we can't get stuck in these rote traditions that sometimes go stale for people. So can we do differently? Right? Yeah. And, but anything come to mind as far as this over engineering dynamic?
The thing that comes to my mind, it it it actually just kind of goes back to what I experienced as a convert in the church, which is that I definitely noticed how different things were much less, I guess, exciting than what I was used to. And what that I think has done is forced me to focus on why the content is exciting, maybe not so much looking at the delivery. And I think that that goes both ways.
I think that's for leaders and teachers, as well as just anybody that's out in the pews to remember because when you when gospel principles are real to you, when they are alive to you, they should be exciting. Mhmm. And I think that that should come through in how you're teaching or how you're leading.
And, you know, we've all been in sort of stale lessons before, but I try to remind myself that these principles, these answers that the restored gospel provides, they you know, there are a lot of things, but but boring is not one of them or shouldn't be one of them. So So I'm curious. What do you remember from that experience as you were joining the church? Because you're a teenager. Right? As you joined the church in
16 when I joined. What do you remember for that first experience in a Latter day Saint Chapel? I remember having very little idea what was going on because I expected there to be, like, somebody who was the leader of the church up there sort of telling us what to think. And, you know, the leadership takes a pretty limited role in a Latter day Saint meeting.
And I think it was just like I can remember it was just like this mom that was up there, you know, speaking to the congregation, not somebody that had really polished public speaking skills. And I do remember thinking that it was kind of boring. But I think when you're a teenager, I don't know. At least, I was not so sure about how everything was supposed to be done. And so it didn't strike me as that weird, but I definitely noticed
a difference. Yeah. And what were you used to, like, the more Protestant evangelical life bands and music and I was baptized as a Catholic when I was a baby, but I didn't attend mass very often. And then as a teenager, as I started kind of getting into religion, I went to a Baptist church. And, yeah, very kind of fiery. I I think the pastor was, you know, from the American South. And so, you know, there was the, like, hallelujah, you know, coming from the congregation and stuff. And
I learned a lot. I've I remember those lessons. And sometimes I even incorporate them into my own lessons now as a Latter day Saint. But but, yeah, very different very different dynamic. Yeah. And even then, I wouldn't consider that a very overengineered experience, right, because he was a very lively preacher, but, like, there there was no, like, laser show or anything. It was it was just him at the front. Yeah. And, you know, to I mean, people can worship how, where, and what they may.
So we're not necessarily trying to bag on those that are over engineered, but there are some churches that have the entire AV crew. They're I mean, it's like a stage production. Yeah. Right? Which, you know, if that's how they wanna worship, great. But it's not necessarily because that's the best way or that they even that they get the best results. Right?
Right. Right. And I think you you mentioned that in the article that, you know, there's no correlation between the entertainment value of the church and if people are showing up. Yeah. No. You know, using the limited dataset that, you know, was available to the sources that I cite in there.
What is even interesting about that too is that that sort of, like, rock concert church experience tends to not resonate as much with younger people, which was surprising to me because that seemed to me to be the demographic that that would be aimed at, but it tends to younger people more and more looking for a more traditional church experience. Yeah. Yeah. And that's interesting.
I did a, you know, I'm good friends with pastor Jeff from Hello Saints, and there's one video where he actually takes me to 3 different evangelical churches on a Sunday. Right? And we did everything from the more liturgical, like, the it felt more like a LDS sacrament meeting to the megachurch. Right? And, you know, some you know, maybe there's more of a casual experience as far as you can show up in Levi's and, you know, a t shirt and, you know, you
feel very comfortable right at home. Right? But there's something of value for that I experienced in our faith tradition of, like, putting on the shirt and tie and helping my kids get ready for church. And I think over time, it it really sets it apart as as we try and do on the Sabbath day that there's there's a lot of value in some of those things that seem maybe old fashioned or boring or comfortable, but there's a lot of value there. Right? Yeah. And, probably, it affects a lot
how you feel Mhmm. Showing up. I mean, it I'm sure it affects the atmosphere for everybody, but like you said, it kinda forces you to set it apart. I like that. Yeah. Really good stuff. Is there anything more to the, like, entertainment versus engagement? Like, is there more we could do to create that engagement? Because I feel like sometimes we get trapped on the other side of
things where it's like, okay. This part where we do the ward business and, you know, this person you know, and we're sort of just going through the motions and we on on paper in the lecture, we know how important the sacrament is and we do it and we're like, okay. Oh, this person's right? We're sort of it's
not very engaging. Yeah. And any thoughts on on that as far as, like, what what advice would you give to leaders after sitting with this topic as far as what should we be doing more with our meetings? So I don't know. I I guess, I don't know what to do as far as, like, some kind of process or technique, but I really do think that sincerity is key. You know, people feeling the truthfulness of what they're dealing with. It's so easy, I think, to take it for granted. Mhmm.
And I recently went to Restore Conference and, one of the speakers there, her name's Elizabeth Oldfield. She's not a Latter day Saint, but she was talking about how people are looking for the answers that we have as people of faith. And we sometimes forget that, and we're only talking to other people who already believe all the things that we do. Right?
But thinking about it from the perspective of what these things could mean to somebody who maybe isn't familiar with them or doesn't know them changes my worship experience a lot. And, you know, even when somebody is saying something and in, you know, kind of a monotone or they're not being very engaging. And I I definitely think that there's room for people to take seriously, like speaking well and looking people in the eyes
when they're teaching, things like that. But just remembering that this doctrine could change somebody's life or that it should be changing our lives, I think, goes a long way towards the kind of commitment and the kind of discipleship that we're trying to facilitate at church. Mhmm. Yeah. And that's it goes a long way that oftentimes as I have opportunity to speak different places or, you know, I'm I'm a content creator.
I'm always, you know, researching some of the stuff, and I get to a point where I'm like, but everybody knows this. Right? Because what it could be, is like common sense to me. Yeah. And I'm like, well, this I kinda feel silly because I'm saying stuff that people already know. Right? And when in reality, we have a phenomenal message. We don't realize how many people maybe don't aren't there yet
or don't understand it. And so for the maybe the member that's been there a long time, we sort of try and play to that audience of, like, let's talk about faith again. Like, oh, man. We're just we're just talking about faith. Right? Well but and I'm sure you had this experience, but I've certainly experienced, you know, being at church in something that I have heard many times. I suddenly get it. Mhmm. You know, it's I the power of what's being taught comes through
in some new way too. And so, you know, even among people that have heard these things, it's different. You know? It's it's not necessarily just hearing it. It's it's different to know it. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Really powerful. And and just maybe playing more to the audience of who who's maybe seeking Yes. That's in the room, whether they're a member of the church or not. Like, let's talk to them rather than just do the sacrament talk as we do the sacrament talk. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's good.
So near the end of the article, you talk you're you cover this as far as what does work. Like, what what are generally people looking for in a church from with this from this limited data? Anything come to the surface of that? Yeah. People are looking for discipleship. So they're looking for something that asks something of them. Mhmm. And, I think that's a little bit counterintuitive.
One of the things that they talk about in the great de churching, it's a topic that comes up a lot as the seeker sensitivity movement Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where, you know, churches, evangelical, Protestant churches were looking to create a church experience that would get people who were not in church in church. And this was like this is like a certain time period. Like, seventies, eighties,
seventies? And it really I think it really got going, like, probably in the the nineties is when it that movement started really taking off. Mhmm. So, basically, making church as fun and engaging as possible, comfortable. Like, we're not gonna harp on you about your sin or whatever. Like The idea was just get them in the door. Yeah. So And for a while, it looked like
that was there was something to it. And so one of the things that they were hoping to accomplish with the seeker sensitivity movement is that you get people into the church, and then you create disciples from that. But that wasn't really happening. You know, I quote a former pastor in my article who was really involved with
this movement. And one of the things that eventually sort of shifted him away from it was just noticing that all of the the people who were supposed to end up as these disciples that were then going out and ministering to others, right, and contributing to the church, that it just wasn't happening. And that, in fact, the opposite was happening, that people were leaving high demand religions and sort of tapering off of religion through some of these seeker sensitive churches.
Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating that I think there is and and I think it's maybe how God wired us that we want to go to a place that's centered spiritually and then to sort of check ourselves. Right? And maybe have people that look us in the eye and say, listen. Things gotta change. Yeah. Like, you're on a path that isn't where god wants you to be. Right?
And and that's hard to go because you wanna create this place that's just love and this Well and and one of the things that they talk about, you know, towards the end of the great day churching is that you really can't have both. You can have real discipleship. You can sort of, you know they talk about, like, not watering down the requirements of of real discipleship. And you can have that with warmth and with really caring about people. And I think the LDS church does a great job of
that. Mhmm. And so, you know, it's I don't think it has to be that either or, and and we kind of need both. Mhmm. We need we need the the justice and the mercy. Right. Yeah. I've I've often framed it as, I call, the gospel continuum that there's those days weeks months that you just need a big divine hug. Yeah. Right? And so you're on the love side, but the natural result of the grace of Jesus Christ is you can't help but turn to him and say, I wanna be like
you. Like, what what's the program I have to do in order to be like you? And he's like, well, let me show you my requirements, my commandments, my covenants. Right? And then I see at the same time, people get stuck on that love side where, you know, this what was it called? The the seeker sensitive movement. Right? We're stuck on the love side, and then we have really nothing to offer because they feel loved, then they say, well, now what? Right? Yeah.
But then on the other side, we can get really stuck in the behaviors, like, the, you know, the checklist, the the you know, where it's like, well, you know and so it's this natural dance of going back and forth from love to to covenant, you know, back and forth from love to commandments and the mercy and the justice that we we need that depending on where we're at in life, and that keeps us going as long as we're moving on that continuum rather than getting stuck on one side.
Right? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you were talking about covenants, and I think that that's kind of that's such a great way of conceiving of of both, like, the covenants contain the requirements of discipleship, but also the promises, the blessings. And I think that what, you know, is how people are looking for a transcendent experience at church. And a year or so ago, I I wrote another article
about this the great teaching book. And the truth is is when it comes to just, like, social benefits, people can get those in other places much more easily. And so they don't need a church necessarily just for those reasons. They need a church for those things that our institutions other institutions and social clubs and things cannot provide. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes the fringe benefits become, like, the core benefit accidentally.
Yes. Yes. Like, some people sometimes I find myself showing up to church for the community. Yeah. And I'm like, I love my ward. We get to sit together. Here we are. And I sort of gloss over the the core doctrines that are redemptive. Yes. Right? Or we we miss that message in our delivery as leaders where we we just want let's build a community here. And then we're like, no. The primary reason we come is for that sanctifying experience,
right, of of these covenants, commandments. And and even, you know, as you hear online and spend time on Twitter or x or whatever. And, there's sometimes a criticism of, like, why all the talk about covenants in general conference? And it's like, you guys, that of anything that sets us apart from other faiths Yeah. These Christian traditions, it's this emphasis on covenants that we go to a building and participate in rites and rituals that invite us into
a developmental path with god. And it's it's beautiful, but It is. It becomes so oh, this is what we do. Right? Doesn't everybody do that? No. Not everybody does that. You know? It's powerful. Well and I think just from Alicia's standpoint, what I take from this is, like, don't shy away from, like, those lessons. I think the the two things was the that stimulate commitment and sacrifice. Like, don't shy away from inviting your ward, your quorum, your lee say to sacrifice.
Yeah. And we have some great models in the church, you know, ministering and service assignments, things, but there's other ways we can do that. And I think a lot of people find that's what they're looking for. Yeah. I mean, there's you were talking about, you know, some of the criticisms that you see sometimes on social media. And I think one word that gets thrown around a lot is high demand religion. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, that's This has this negative connotation.
Yeah. You know, it makes you think of, like, The Handmaid's Tale or something. And I just think what's coming, you know, forward from the research is that high demand religion is really the only kind of religion that lasts. And because people, they are looking for meaning.
You know, they're looking for something bigger than themselves that they can align themselves with, which means that, like you said, we can't afford to be shy about sharing the things that people might not know, but that are gonna demand something of them. Yeah. Because that is really what people are looking for. And sometimes we hear the critics, but a lot of times, the critics are the people that are already in the doors and have been there for a long time.
And so we have to remember that there's all these other people out there, right, who are looking for those answers. Yeah. I've often reframed the the term high demand religion is we have a high redemptive religion. Right? Because Yeah. And as we step into that redemption a lot to change Yeah. For someone. Yeah. Exactly. And and God gives us these things not
to, like, burden us with Yeah. More things to do or service assignments or but because we'll be sanctified through these processes and become redeemed. I love that. You know? And and, so, like, own it. You know? That's that's great. Like, I I don't know. I'd use the term high high demand because God isn't just demanding just to demand, but he's No. He's inviting us into a relationship that's redemptive. And there's requirements in that. And Yes. When we feel that love, we
wanna we wanna do that. You know? And I also think it's interesting just watch modern society, like, from the 35,000 foot view of the people are seeking this demand or this high intensity life experience in secular context. Right? Thinking of, like I don't know if you ever heard of, like, 75 hard. It's like this 75 day, like, intense experience. Right? I've never done it. But you'll see someone on Facebook be like, oh, day 3 of 75 hard. And then after about day 10, you
stop seeing their Yeah. But, you know, bless their hearts. They're doing their best. But, like, the human soul craves this. Like, I want, like, an intense experience that's gonna help me grow. Yeah. And in the context of religion, better yet. Yeah. That's really cool. Awesome. Anything you wanna tease or if not, that's fine. I don't mean to put you on the spot. I mean, I'd like I said, I just cleared my plate Yeah. With articles and so Nice. I don't even know what's next on the horizon. So
Awesome. So now that you're in I mean, it's been several years since you've been baptized. Yeah. A lot of years. When you show up to church, like I mean, what advice would you give to someone who is kinda fresh or the bishop does this old same old way or I mean, any tips you give to that lay member who's just showing up and engaging that you haven't already mentioned? You know, so my husband, he's never been a bishop, but he's been in a bishopric or a or a clerk for most of our marriage.
And seeing how, you know, much he deals with in his everyday life and how tired he gets sometimes, and then he goes and gives what he can. It's just kind of reminded me that we are all doing our best. Mhmm. Trying to you talked about, like, sanctification. And and another word that comes to mind is consecration.
I think just remembering that person who is not a great teacher or kind of boring or does things the way you wouldn't necessarily do them, they're consecrating an incredible amount of time and energy. And when I think about it from that perspective, it makes me want to criticize less and want to roll up my sleeves a little bit more and say, hey, how can I help? You know, what what can I take
off of your plate? Because, yeah, my husband, he's come home sometimes with extra burdens, I think, that people have given him and, you know, criticizing, his service. And he wants to do better. He always wants to do better, but I think maybe just remembering that a lot of times people are doing their best. Yeah. Perfect.
And then lastly, what final encouragement would you have for a room full of church leaders who are trying to create an engaging experience but as a sacred experience, in their church? I really just think, like, conversion, you know, just when the scriptures talk about singing the song of redeeming love, I think they mean that those doctrines are close. They're powerful. They're fresh. They're real to you because you're using them and you understand what they mean.
And learning from people who feel that, who really feel sincerely the power, and the joy that those doctrines give. I don't I don't know that there's anything that is really better than that, you know, for those who are earnestly seeking. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. Hey, listen. Would you do me a favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints.
So would you mind taking the link of this episode or another episode of Leading Saints and just texting it to that friend? You know who I'm talking about, the friend who always listens to podcasts and is always telling you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell that friend about Leading Saints. So share it. We'd also love to hear
from you. If you have any perspective or thought on this episode, you can go to leading saints.org and actually leave a comment on the, episode page, or reach out to us at leading saints.org/contact. Remember, up your teaching game by listening to the David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leading saints.org/14. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.