Have you ever heard of scrupulosity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more Latter day Saints than you think. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with scruplosity and how he got treatment. You can watch this interview for free in the mentally healthy saints library by going to leading saints.org/14.
This gets you 14 days free access to Sam Baxter's interview about scrupulosity and 25 plus other interviews about ministering to those who struggle with mental health. The content is priceless for leaders. So visit leading saints.org/14 for free access. Before we jump into the content of this episode, I kinda feel it's important that I introduce myself. Now many of you have been around a long time. You're well familiar with my voice and the the with Leading Saints as an organization.
But if you're not, well, my name is Kurt Frankem, and I am the executive director of Leading Saints and the podcast host. Now Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead, and we do that through, well, content creation like this podcast and many other resources at leading saints.org.
And, we don't act like we have all the answers or know exactly what a leader should do or not do, but we like to explore the concepts of leadership, the science of leadership, what people are researching about leadership, and see how we can apply them to a Latter day Saint world. So here we go. Welcome back to another episode of Leading Saints. And in this episode, I talk with Rebecca Buffington, who is a life coach with a specific emphasis on ADHD.
That's right. It's attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I think that's right. She clarifies it, defines it, gives us all the the groundwork that we need to understand to work with people in our leadership roles. Because here's the thing. Obviously, we think of ADHD, and we probably automatically go to primary. Right? How do I get that kid to just sit and behave and be reverent? Right?
But you'll be shocked at how it maybe impacts those kids that grow up and now they're youth and they're craving certain dopamine hits, or maybe they struggle with pornography a little bit more than others, or they're a risk taker and we don't know. You know, they just won't
stay in line and do these things. And then what about in adulthood where I'm sure you've maybe worked with somebody and you thought, man, here we are in this presidency and that individual seems flaky or they seem to forget what I asked them to to do or they come late or all these things considered. And, again, this isn't as Rebecca talks about. It's not an excuse as much as it is an explanation of what's going on.
She gives us some great tips and tricks of how to approach these people, how to have more empathy and patience with them, and how to help them succeed because that's what the gospel and our faith community should definitely help us do. And, also, listen for the term that she introduced. I never heard this before of rejection sensitive dysphoria.
Really fascinating concept. Something that I probably felt a little bit in my life with struggling with my own level of ADHD, but just understanding these concepts, again, you can approach these relationships, these working relationships, these calling relationships in a such a more effective way. So I I think you'll appreciate this. So here is my interview with Rebecca Buffington. We talk all things ADHD in the church. Rebecca Buffington, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast.
Thank you. Thanks for having me. You are in Atlanta, Georgia. Right? Yes. I am. Very good. And, where where were you born and raised? I was born in Utah, but lived in Portland, and I did high school in Boise. So Awesome. Wow. Wow. Jumped around a little bit there. But you love it in in Georgia then? I do. I do. We do. It's nice to have a pool or something during the summer so you don't die, but the rest of the year is beautiful. So Awesome.
And I think it was your your brother who originally reached out to us and said, you've gotta have my sister on, and we listened, and here you are. So because you are are a life coach. Right? Yes. Yes. I've been certified as a life coach, but I specialize in ADHD. And so I help a lot of people with emotion coaching and all of that, all the things that go along with it. So Yeah. And I love I love life coaches.
I have a very specific, like, sort of a niche in it all because, you know, sometimes very broad that I'm, you know, we're not sure, you know. Yeah. You're generally helpful, but it's really good to be yeah. It's good to be specifically helpful at times. So Yeah. That's great. So why ADHD? So my journey is that I've never really known a lot about it. I'm not sure what your experience has been
with it. There's a lot of stigma out there, and I always thought it was, you know, just a little boy that can't sit still in school, and that's someone that has ADHD. So I have 4 children, and my oldest is 23. My youngest is 15. And you would never look at my children and think they have ADHD because they're very bright and smart, at least the understanding I had. Yeah. The stigmas of it. Right? Yeah. They're very bright and did well in school and all of
that. And so but my oldest, his junior year, there were a few things going on in his life, and I could we tried to get him help for anxiety and depression, and I could tell there was more going on. And I couldn't figure it out, but my youngest was in 3rd grade at the time. And the teacher said, you know, there's just a few things that make me wonder and she's not allowed to say it, but then she told me about it and what some other things that you can see with ADHD.
And it has changed my life and my family's life in finding these things out. And so I'm on a mission really to help more awareness out there and people to realize they're not bad people. There's a lot of good. I want people to see there's good, but just understanding it more so that they can move forward in their life and not feel stuck. So I wanna assume nothing. What does ADHD stand for? Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Nice. And it's not just a a
childhood thing. It's adults still with it as well. Right? Yes. Yes. And it's a terrible name, attention, because it really has so much more to do that with than just attention. But Right. We'll get to that. Sometimes it sort of help me. I forget the difference between or if there is a difference between ADHD and ADD. Is there a difference? There is.
The DSM 5, which is the psychological manual, basically, does not differentiate anymore because really so much of ADHD a d the real difference is inattentive, which is not so hyperactive. Kinda like the ADD was not having the hyperactive component where so people used to say, oh, yes. I have ADHD, but it's just ADD. It's not I'm not hyperactive. But really what they have found is it's not just it's not just a motor hyperactivity.
It's often mental hyperactivity that can be such a struggle, and both kinds will deal with that. So they don't differentiate anymore, but they do have different presentations. So you have the inattentive kind, the hyperactive kind that is more motor, and then the combined type where you have both. Gotcha. Now in just my personal journey, I've been you know, I've heard different traits of ADHD and experiences. And just looking back at my life,
I thought, you know what? I bet if I got diagnosed, I would I went through the test or whatever it is. Very likely I'd be diagnosed it. But sometimes there's that like you mentioned that focus on attention where I think, well, no. I mean, I I can focus, like, but sometimes I focus too much on things that maybe I shouldn't focus on. Right? And I'm, like, over focused because that is Right. One of the traits. Right? It is. Absolutely. And, really, that's what I like to tell people is
it's not that you can't focus. Usually, Sometimes you hyperfocus. Like you're saying, it's really a struggle with regulating your focus, and that can be challenging or or making your focus show up when you need it to. Like, even what's funny is I talked about my children. 3 of my 4 have been diagnosed, but, really, I was diagnosed as an adult as well, and I did great. I was really successful. I had a lot of friends. I went to BYU, did well in school, but I always felt
a step behind. Right? A little bit, like, not quite knowing what was going on with schoolwork or anything. But and I would look like I was paying attention, but a lot of times my brain was somewhere else without me controlling that. And I think, oh my gosh. Pay attention. You have to listen to this. But then someone else would have the remote on my brain is how I tell people. And so it's really frustrating, but it also can be such an amazing feature. When you hyperfocus,
there's nothing you can't do. When you're in the zone, do you know what I mean when I say that? Yeah. Absolutely. There's nothing you can't do when you're in the zone, but sometimes getting yourself in the zone or pulling yourself out can be challenging. Yeah. And with terms like deficit and disorder, sometimes it feels like this is a really bad thing or this is a disorder. Right? Like this something's off. But in my experience, sometimes I feel like, no. This is like a superpower.
Like, when I when I get going, like, yeah, nothing has stopped me. And really, the success of Leaning Saints could be attributed to some of my experiences with ADHD. So I would absolutely believe that. And that's why it's so important for people to know it's positive. There's a lot of positive to it, but if it's not managed well and it's a little more intense because yours let's say you do have it. We'll just pretend. Okay. Doesn't really matter. Right? But you because you've
done well. But there might be more impairing things for others that have it. And you may just have some of the parts that are really impairing more mild. Or maybe you have a wife that is super, you know, good at the things you're not so good at. Right? And that's usually how couples work. But many times people with ADHD find others with ADHD because they're literally, like, some of the most creative, sensitive, incredible people, passionate, right, about things they do.
And it's almost everyone I know that has it has a dog loves babies. I mean, it's just great great people, but there are things that can be challenging. So Nice. Yeah. And I've just discovered it just my life that, you know, there's certain tools that really help me. You know, I have I go through apps that I use or there's a service out there called Focusmate. I pay $5 a month, and I can work on a task with somebody, like, with me, like, almost
like via Zoom, and it works phenomenally. I get all sorts of stuff done, but just that little little tweak. Right? And just like all things, it's a spectrum. Like, there are some people with ADHD that's debilitating. They can't function. They can't keep a job. They can't do things. Right? So as we say these things, like, we're not putting everybody in the same pot. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Please know that you've never met someone
with ADHD. You've never met the same person because we're all going to have something different. Mhmm. Yep. You talk about as far as, like, you know, ADHD isn't meant to be an excuse. Right? But more of a it's just an explanation of what's going on. And it could be a very liberating thing because I remember feeling a lot of shame in school at times where I'm like, oh, like, I just can't sit in that class or
nothing is interesting. I can't it's so hard to study or I find myself procrastinating and I beat myself up. Like, why do I procrastinate? I just gotta get it done. Right? But when you sort of have a label to put on there to say, okay. Something's happening here and it's okay.
Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up because and I'm not trying to brown nose hair or anything, but my other brother that not the one that wrote in, but my other brother let me know when I was telling him I was doing this about your book. And I was like, oh, that not just because I was coming on with you, of course, that's a added benefit, but I thought that is right up my alley. He's speaking my language here talking about shame and all
of that. And so to me, that's what is so challenging is you start to see it as a character flaw and something that's wrong with you, not just that you might have a struggle doing that, and that's okay. Right? And so, like, you're saying, it's an explanation, but it can't be an excuse. It can explain that maybe this isn't because I'm a loser. Right? Or just a bad kid that doesn't care. This is an explanation, but I have to
find a way to do it. And like you said, maybe there were things that you did in your life where you did find a way. Right? You found your focus app. You found all these things. But maybe if you hyper focus, you have your wife tell you you've been doing this too long and you haven't eaten and you haven't talked to
the kids or whatever. Right? And so you found those things and that's usually what can happen, but if you start young thinking that you are a problem and it goes into shame, that compounds often if you continue to have problems. Yeah. And that brings us sort of that in that religious context of just like we talked about obsessive compulsive disorder. Like, when you bring that into religious context, it can just inflame it more. And
the same with ADHD. Like, there's components of this that when we frame it religiously or bring it in that context, you know, there's some warning signs that red flags we can look out for. So anything else as far as just laying the groundwork of understanding ADHD, what it is, what it isn't that we haven't talked about? Yes. I would well, there's a lot, but I'll try to keep it brief.
I don't bore you in this part. But I would say some of the biggest issues about it is I would say that people it's hard to tell because it often looks like people that don't care, people that are lazy, or which we'll get into more of that, what leaders may face later. But I just wanna shout from the rooftops that that is not usually what's going on with with people because it can be more social behavioral or emotional. And it's really easy to see when someone
has a disorder. And this is a neuropsychological disorder. This is not just an imagined thing because really 20 years ago or so I mean, I'm not getting the exact years, but people thought it was made up. I thought it was I had my own understanding of it, and people thought it was just an excuse for people just saying, oh, well, boys just need to sit still. Why aren't they listening? You know? They just or the parenting needs to be better or whatever. And that's just not the case. There's
so much more to it. And so Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate that. And we'll get into that a little bit, especially as it relates to different callings and things because you can make these assumptions of, like, why is my first counselor just so, like, irresponsible? Doesn't fall through. Like, I told him
do this thing. He doesn't do it. And then we don't realize, well, there's something more going on there, and it's not because he's a bad person or irresponsible or wasn't raised right or, you know, there could be a lot more there that with understanding, you can
actually Yes. Offer some help. So let me ask you about as far as, like, diagnosis, like because this is a like, from a a mental health professional that would they would diagnose you with ADHD and but, like, is that important to do or important to consider, or do do we only listen to those people who have been or or someone like me that maybe I'm just using it as an excuse, you know, with the I don't have a diagnosis. Maybe there's nothing really wrong with you. It's all
been because of ADHD your whole life. They've never messed up You know? I'm just kidding. No. You know what? It can be because, I guess, it just depends on, like, how much shame you have around it. That's what I would say because, especially a child, you know, you have amazing celebrity psychologists out there, like, someone like Jordan Peterson that
has so many great things to say. I mean, I like his content a lot, but there are certain things that people just hear and will say, and it's really irresponsible to be sharing things about. I heard him, you know, refer to a study about how, oh, it's just little kids at school that can't that don't have enough recess and just have to, you know, especially boys, they need to run and play and blah blah blah blah blah. So that ADHD doesn't really exist. It's
that. And it's a neuropsychological disorder, and that actually really does a disservice to so many that really dealt these challenges. And I would say, especially women and girls, because they are often missed. They're most likely to have the inattentive kind, the daydreamer that you will not notice. And especially girls have a lot of expectation, I guess, to you know, as a mom, a mother, you need to do all the things and do it right and do it well.
There's so much expectation there. So sometimes in those situations, it can be helpful to know there's more going on. I think about my little babies or little little toddlers that would keep me up at night or something with an ear infection. And before I knew it was an ear infection, I would be so frustrated, like, stop waking up. Why aren't you sleeping? You know? Just so and then the next day, I'd go to the doctor and they're like, both ears are so infected. This they're
terrible. You know? And I'd be like, oh my gosh. I feel so bad that I was you know? Of course, I never showed I was a perfect mom. But That's right. Of course. I never showed that. Another episode that will interview you about yourself. Exactly. A whole another one. But it's really nice to know, you know, to have that compassion for yourself. So if you're dealing with that, I would say it would be helpful to get a diagnosis.
Also, for kids, you can get accommodations, which I know also a lot of people talk about accommodations. Well, we shouldn't take away hard things from kids. They need to go through hard things, but really it's putting them on the same level as everyone else to actually handle the hard things and deal with them. It doesn't take away your hard things in life. But even just as simple as I know so many kids that think they're terrible at math
or writing. Usually, those are the big did you have one of those that were difficult? Oh, I to this day, I get a little anxiety when I open a spreadsheet because I always struggle with math. Absolutely. So Okay. Yes. So tell me what it was like for you when you would do math. Did you have math anxiety every time you sat down to a test? Yeah. I guess it was one of those things of, like like, what am I doing here? Because I have much more of a creative mind where I'm like, hey.
I'm just going through these wrote exercises to know what the square root of this is or, you know, what a equals or what. It's like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything, and I just feel I'm being tortured about it. I don't know. So it's really their fault for sure. That's right. For making you do math. But really something as simple as math can be where you can have people that I know so many that say I'm terrible at math, and I'm just awful, and my kids
struggle because I was awful. They're awful. This is just how it is. And most of the time, they're actually okay at math. It's just they're working memory issues, which is an issue with ADHD. They have a harder time holding on to the formulas and everything. And even the memory retrieval can be difficult
in that moment. And so and you think about math and the complex problems, you can be looking at the problem you're doing, have to go over to the side and do some calculations, and then come back to the problem, and you can get lost in that moment. Like, where was I? And what was I doing? Or tiny little mistakes, you know, miss mixing up negative and positive. And why is this important for the church?
This is just important to understand that there are reasons and explanations for this where you're not as slow as you think or dumb or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Especially for a faith tradition that has such put so much emphasis on the concept of reverence. Right? Yes. You know, you take that to a primary. I mean, that's what I think all of us can remember times in primary where reverence was super emphasized. Right? Like, yeah, we'll do our wiggle songs, but now is
the time to be reverent. And for some kids, you look at a kid like, what's wrong with you? Like, why can't you just sit still? Or like I mean, don't we have songs about keeping your hands? You know, if Yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to think of one right now, but I can remember sitting in sacrament meeting even, and I had been taught. I grew up in a very orthodox Mormon home, which is great. Oh, sorry. I struggle sometimes. LBS home. You're doing great. Okay. You just correct me if I need
it. You know, to sit during the sacrament, it's quiet. There's no stimulation, and you're supposed to be thinking about Christ. And I remember thinking of that song, it shouldn't be hard to sit very still and think about Jesus' cross on the hill for all that he did and suffered and die you know, died for me or whatever. It shouldn't be hard to sit quietly. And I remember going, what's wrong with me? Why can't I sit and think about Jesus? Because I would think about so many other things while
I'm sitting there being quiet. And so, again, that's back to I wasn't really motor hyperactive, but I had verbal hyperactivity going on. Mhmm. And it was hard for me to put my brain when there was activity going on. Mhmm. And it was hard for me to put my brain when there was no stimulation on what I needed to at the when I was young. And I remember feeling guilt for that, you know, or shame even. It shouldn't be hard to sit very still. Why, you know, why can't I do that? And
that's just that's those things are difficult. And primary kids where you see some sitting and some yeah. We'll get to that for sure. And back in our day, Rebecca, they had 3 hour church, you know, so it was even I don't know how we did that. I honestly don't. Especially primary. Like, I'm like, wow. Like, that was quite a feat we asked them to do. But, talk to me about women and girls as far as the
experience. Because I think that we sort of the stigma of ADHD with little boys, like rowdy, can't sit still, blurting out answers, those things. But tell me about what are some early signs and then maybe some adult signs of ADHD in women? Sure. Absolutely. So like I said, it's it's often
easy to overlook. Now my son I have 2 sons with inattentive, so they were also easy to overlook, but it's not the typical ADHD behavior where they're sometimes they'll be more withdrawn, just quieter, just seem kind of, like I said, looking out a window, you know, their brain kind of daydreaming, whatever, but they also, they can go on the spectrum as well.
Right? They can be that daydreamer, but they so if you have a more hyperactive girl that's obvious, she's often a teaser or, like, verbally aggressive or anything like that. And those are not ladylike. Right? Those are like you get ostracized socially for those things. And if do you say a paraben? Yeah. So, like, almost maybe early on, they can almost be labeled as a little bit of a a bully. Right? Or they're like, that's a dramatic girl. She's causing
problems because she's She's got drama issues. Right? She Yeah. And often she does. And because you're seeking dopamine you know what dopamine is. Yeah. Yeah. This is a interesting component of it. Right? You need that dopamine hit. Right? You do. And the thing is people will tell me all the time, well, aren't we all a little bit ADHD? And I'm like, I understand you, but please don't say that because it really diminishes the true ADHD experience. Because, yes, we all
seek dopamine. We all get distracted sometimes. Right? That's how it goes. But if you I always describe it like this. If you have an under aroused brain and you have lower dopamine than normal, because that's usually what's going on. It's lower dopamine or something to do with the receptors grabbing onto the dopamine or something like that. Some scientist is gonna reach out and tell me that I'm describing that wrong, but it has to do with your neurotransmitter,
a a dopamine neurotransmitter. And so if this is a normal level, I know not everyone can see me, but let's pretend there's a horizontal line. If you have ADHD, your brain is under aroused. So you're kind of below that line. So that's why you're always seeking more dopamine. You're always needing it. So trying to make yourself do something that doesn't give you dopamine is very challenging. So again, everyone that's at this normal level
really enjoys things with dopamine. Right? Things that give us dopamine are running and eating something you love, doing something exciting, playing color by number. That's my favorite on my phone. You know? Yeah. I'll do it for hours. My husband's like, I don't understand how this gives you dopamine. It's amazing. But whatever. I love to see the colors and all of that. But anyway, so if you are at a normal level, you are going to enjoy the dopamine, but you
don't wanna do boring things either. It's just easier for you to make yourself do it because you're at that normal level. But if you're under that level, to get yourself to do something boring is orchard. It's so difficult. It's like a paralysis almost. It's like math homework. Yeah. It's for your mom to get you into math homework. Difficult. Right? Yeah. You dreaded it. Yep. And another issue is time blindness.
Time blindness can be such an issue with getting people to do boring things because you know time, you understand how to tell time, but feeling time and being governed by time is very difficult for people with ADHD. And so often, I'll tell my son, please empty the dishwasher, and he spends an hour and a half complaining about how long it's gonna take, how boring it is, and then we timed him and it actually only took 6 minutes. Right?
So math homework, same thing. You see all these problems you have to do and it's torture to make yourself do it. And so you feel like it's going to take 2 hours, and it probably does because of how much your brain is focusing on how long it's gonna take. Yeah. But you don't know how to recognize. Yeah. So And and the whole dopamine angle is really fascinating just because, like, when you there's so many levels to take it on. Even, like, you think about youth and pornography. Right? Like, that's
a dopamine rush. Right? Now Yes. And, again, it's and I wanna step back, and we'll talk about this more generally, but we're not saying, yeah, we should just let these people run amok. And, yeah, if they need to look at pornography, well, nothing to do there. Or if they need to show up to meetings late, well, you know, they'll deal with it. But It's not their fault. It's a different task. Yeah. Right. But it helps you
step back and say, okay. Maybe there's different tools needed here or get better understanding Yes. Or this youth who just can't seem to stop looking at porn or a grown man or whomever. It's like, maybe there's something else going on here that needs to be addressed rather than just this bad habit. Thank you. Yes. That's what I mean exactly by it's not always a character flaw. It's not always on purpose and you need to know that as a leader as much as they need
to understand that too. And are as the leader are you the one diagnosing everyone? Absolutely not. But like you say, taking that step back and considering because if you saw someone with autism, let's say severe autism, we have compassion for that. We're usually like, you know what? They're they can't, you know, they're not doing this on purpose, all of that. But but it when it's socially, emotional, and behaviorally an issue, you often it looks like it's on purpose. Yeah. And
that they could just change it. And I'm not saying they need to be held accountable. Yes. So we'll get into that for sure. Yeah. And these are just things that, you you know, again, even the bishop or whomever, it's not like he's diagnosing, oh, you're depressed, so you need to go see counsel. But there's sort of this perspective you can gain of, like, well, something's off here. Like, the stability in life seems to be off.
I don't know what it is. I'm not gonna tell them what it I think it is, but maybe there's some resources I can point them to, some professional counseling, some diagnoses, some things that, you know, people who can actually do that. And then that gives us sort of a a baseline to start from a okay. There's ADHD here. You know, is
that medication? Do they give you tools like those types of things so that, yeah, you can overcome looking at the pornography or your life is sort of frustrated or out of in disarray or those type of things. We can get it back on track because that's where that consistency is gonna be really encouraging to somebody. You know, I can do life, and that'll Yes. Avoid other mental health issues. Right? Yes. And that's where they can direct
them to. And and that's a really good point you made because, obviously, this has become my hyper focus because I wanted people to understand this more. And so for some reason, everything I read and learn on this sticks in my brain so well. Where other things I'm like, oh, I don't know. I think I read that but I'm not sure what
it was about. Whatever. But it's just really important because like you said, I do always try to get the latest research and so I go to the ADHD conferences that they have every year, the national conferences, and try to get the most current research. And so even, like, in an addiction center, let's say, most of those places say 0 substances, really zero medication because it's a stimulant medication
is a problem. Right? It can be abused at times, but really you're more likely to not abuse things if you are treating your ADHD properly. And, so, they're starting to realize in addiction centers having your ADHD treated properly helps you with treatment rather than because so many people so I always say I'm not pro medication, but I'm anti suffering. And if someone is suffering ADHD, the medication is the first line treatment, the best
that helps the quickest. So if you have someone really suffering, that's going to help. Now I do life coaching for ADHD. So trust me, I don't believe medication is the only thing that's gonna help you. It's a tool in your tool belt. And sometimes you might not need that tool because coaching to me is let's figure this out together first to see if you don't need medication and you can just tweak a few things like you talked about. But if they get to a point where medication is helpful,
that's okay too. If I know many people are against it, all of that, but to me, that would be another reason for diagnosis. If you feel like you've you're still trying, you've hired a life coach, you figured out ADHD, you have those understandings, but you're still not moving forward, then sometimes the medication can bring the wall down. That's how I see.
Often what breaks my heart, you know, in the church context is there's so many I mean, I just my own experience of being in church leadership and these callings are such a blessing, such a remarkable opportunity. You witness so many miracles, you get close to people, relationships, community, I mean, goes on and on and on. And then in a sort of a simple meeting where maybe somebody suggested for calling and it's like, oh, oh, no. No. Like, he was my counselor, and
I was elder's born president. He was all over the place, and let's definitely not put him, you know, in a place of influence over. And, of course, we wanna make the best call and, you know, we don't want chaos. And naturally, as human beings, we avoid we want the safe choice that we want the person that is the attorney and and it just has everything lined up, and he's just gonna show up and deliver time and time again and not, you know, ruffle feathers
or cause any wakes or anything. When in reality, there's maybe a higher law, higher approach that we can do that. So with that with that context, like, what should leaders do if they do have that person who's, like, just a scatterbrained or whatever and and it does come back to ADHD? Okay. So you find out the best way. If you're noticing something, let's say you give them tasks and they frequently forget them or whatever. Right? That's when you kind of ask them, hey.
What would help you the most? You know, how can I help? Would it help if I remind you or, you know, whatever to do this? Does it help if you're I don't know. Just kind of trying to find out from them what would be the best best help for that. Yeah. Yeah. And really just having compassion for it because like I said before, you will never find more clever, loving people
that connect with people. There's just so much good there that can come that you're missing out on when you don't consider those people. Right? But when it comes to paperwork or even dates, my son, I signed him up after COVID for the ACT and I switched my planner in the summer before. And when I wrote down on my new planner with a date with the ACT, I did it on the wrong Saturday, the Saturday after the ace the ACT was supposed to happen. And he
was a senior and everything. It was his first time taking it, and I totally messed up his date, you know, and that stuff happens to me all the time. Just I was even so worried about our interview, like, is it at 3 my time or 3 his time or whatever? But that's the thing is their paperwork and all that. Maybe don't give it to that person. Right? Don't give the paperwork type of situations to him, because that's that's another thing. Have you heard of executive functions?
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Like, higher level things we do. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, really, it's one of the most difficult parts of ADHD. It really is what is impacted in your brain because your frontal lobe is kind of the executor of the rest of your brain. Okay. Yeah. And so right? Do you do you know what I'm talking about? Like, where it's the planning, prioritizing, all of that that can be really difficult.
And so a lot of times in adults, you see so so, like, someone you want to call to a calling or whatever, they struggle with planning and prioritizing and keeping track and all of that because all of that is requires executive function. Same with, like, writing a paper. If you're a good writer, my son we would say, hey, write a paper. He was an amazing writer, but he would write 10 pages and only needed to write 5. He had a hard time kind of, like, prioritizing which things were most important
to do. So a leader, that could be difficult. You could give them 5 things to do. They may only do the first three because those were kind of easy to get to and accomplish. But if there's other the other 2 that have multiple steps to get done, all of that, it is overwhelming and avoided often because that takes a lot of executive function. I guess the best way to describe executive function would be, like, if you have an orchestra
and there's the leader of the orchestra. I can't think of what that's called at the moment. The Here we are. Yes. This is the problem. Display. On display. It's definitely my my people. The director. Right? Or the Thank you. Right? The director? The chorister is the one for the singing. Let's let's sing. Everybody's screaming at their iPhone right now. Like, come on, people. Yes. We know what it is. Why don't you? But see once I listen, it's like, oh, but
yes. So the person directing the orchestra, they let you know when it's time for the violas to go and the bass to play and, you know, brings everybody together, tells us when to stop, and that's kind of what your prefrontal cortex does in your brain. It's the executor, the director of the rest of your brain. So it can't directs your emotions, your motivation, planning, prioritizing, all of that. And so that is impaired when you have ADHD
often. So I see this in my life so much of, like, if I just walk into my home office here, like, on the beginning of work day and I'm just like, oh, I'll just get at it. You know? Alright. Checking the email inbox. Like, Like, oh, wait. I gotta do this thing over here. Here we go. Do that thing. Oh, wait. I should I gotta get the newsletter out. I can write that. I get halfway through the newsletter message. I'm like, alright.
You know, over here now, and, like, suddenly, I'm, like, on this page or that page. Right? But and so sometimes I just have to step away from it all and just be like, I gotta go in the other room where all this isn't there and just gonna sit and think about what do I gotta do. And it's amazing how I'd be like, okay. I'm now I'm gonna go do that thing like that. So I'm sort of igniting that executive function of being like, okay. Let's put you behind the steering wheel again.
Alright. What is it I gotta do? Right? So And that's exactly what I'm talking about where someone because, really, like I said, if you're doing a task, especially one that is mentally challenging. Like, for example, when I was young and I had to do homework I would need to sit down and do homework, but my room would need to be cleaned and cleaning my room I hate to clean my room when my mom told me
to. It was overwhelming, but doing my room felt less mental effort than doing my homework that particular homework. So I would spend time doing that and then I try to come back, but that's really a challenge because staying with the task for a long time and completing it is one of the biggest challenges because, like you said, you're often distracted
from the task. Now everyone's distracted from tasks occasionally, but this is a very common thing where and even someone that's neurotypical that doesn't have ADHD, they might be distracted from the task, but usually they come back and just keep finishing that task. But and there's a joke going around all the time that everything around me is 80% done and that's it because to finish it is you kind of lose interest and it's hard because have you heard of FOMO? You've heard
of Oh, yeah. You know the fear of missing out. Yeah. Well, at ADHD the joke is we have Foley Foley is f o l I, the fear of losing interest because if you lose interest, it is so hard to get your brain to engage in it again. So, yeah. So that is challenging. I tried to trick my brain. I'm like, I'm just gonna go do that for 5 minutes, and then I have full I have full, autonomy to just quit and just not stop doing it. But then I get doing it. I'm like, oh, wait. This
isn't that hard. And here I go and look. I just accomplished something that I needed to do. Right? But it's just that that first step sometimes it's like, Oh, it's it is. It's the paralysis of getting started and it's Yeah. Staying with it. And you asked a little earlier. I apologize. I'm really trying not to go off on tangents, but But, hey. It is an interview about ADHD. So here we go. And, you know, if you know? Yes. Definitely. But I do. I like it when people
talk fast and over each other. It's it's exciting. But, no, you know, you asked about women and girls. And one of the things with women that can be so difficult, When I was diagnosed, my doctor said, you know, your IQ is up here, but you're kind of operating down here because you're not able to show. So you can still do well. Like I said, I went to BYU. I had decent grades. I had a successful family, you know, met the guy of my dreams because my life is perfect. No. It's
not. There's definitely not friction there, but it's still I wasn't quite living up to my potential, and so I try to even just what are what are women judged on? You know? I wish they weren't, but we judge ourselves. Oh, that woman is more organized than me or has a cleaner house. Why can't I
keep up on this? You know? One of the things that was challenging for me is I would be busy all day long but not really accomplishing anything because like I like you just described I would go to a cupboard and start organizing it and then I'd be like oh where's that thing that I was looking for and I'll go look for it and go oh this closet needs to be done. Right? So I'm not finishing
anything. I'm multitasking but it's not really effective at all and that alone can be so hard and not to mention when you're folding laundry and you have a toddler that comes and pushes the basket off the couch that you just folded you've got to redo your constantly interrupted and that is really challenging because you're not really engaging in anything. Yeah. So you start it leads into shame and, you know, that you're not as good
as other people. Then we have Instagram and all the things that show us how good we really aren't. Yeah. For sure. Going back to that question, anything else as far as, like, if you're a leader who's sort of frustrated working people who seem you know, who are maybe experiencing ADHD, I mean, is there anything else to consider as far as how to approach that? Because I would imagine that I also don't wanna
be somebody's, like, caretaker of, like, okay. Like, I'll give you this assignment, and I'll call you 4 times this week and, you know, check-in with me, you know, every night or whatever. Like, you gotta figure out life. You know? Like, I'm asking you to do this. An adult now. Come on. Go figure it out and report back. Right? So help us.
Is there anything else as far as, like, how we can not, you know, just not simply skip over or overlook those people and just get the more focused individual in these Yes. I would definitely say just saying, okay. Like, if you don't see if they go, oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. I'll do that. And you don't see again, you don't have to hold their hand, but just having that external, like, hey. Did you write this down or whatever real quick? You know, they shouldn't have to be told that. Maybe
they'll be offended if you say that. I know. But just kind of, like, knowing what their strengths are, try to give them those things and leave the other items for someone else.
I would say would be the best, but, really, I think it's important to break things down the most because if you just say and this comes into more with, you know, board members you're working with, but if you just say go get a job, that often requires so many steps and it's going to be avoided or not remembered or, you know, the things that you're working on. And so if you're trying to have a leader do all of that, you know, just I
think the best you can't fix it. Like, you can't say go get diagnosed with ADHD and then come back to me, please. Right? We can't do it. Get on some medication and then come back to me. So I think you just need to have grace and patience and notice the positive And it seems like that makes them thrive even more, more than anything.
Yeah. That positive reinforcement. Because I don't know if you had this experience, not everyone's the same, some are more intense than others, but really kids with ADHD grow up with 20,000 more negative messages all the time. And, it may seem as from parents, teachers, all of it, often not meant to portray that. It's just you have a sensitivity to those things. Like, often you'll notice tone of voice and you'll think a teacher is mad at you or someone's mad at you. It happens
in adulthood as well. So you just having grace for things, laughing about it, reminding them again, and realizing changing your lens that they are not doing it on purpose is really helpful, but they're not going to be perfect at remembering every time. Right? Yeah. And I appreciate this concept of, like, sometimes we naturally wanna respond with, like, you know, like, get a job or, like, why don't you set an an alarm, like or why don't you do this or that? Like,
just it's so simple. Right? Especially the kids, like, just fill out the college application. Like, it'll take you 30 minutes. Right? Just do it. Right? And so what I'm learning here, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but just, like, realizing that some of those relationships are gonna need a lot more patience and you're gonna you know, I don't like being a leader that has to hold somebody accountable or follow-up with them and say, like,
hey. Let's meet 1 on 1. And in that 1 on 1 meeting, it's like, listen, brother Joe. It's like, I want you as my first counselor, but, like Yeah. I've got well, like, I gotta know that when I give you this assignment, it's gonna yeah. It's gonna happen. Right? So I don't know what needs to happen on your end, but I'm willing to give you as many chances as you need until you figure that out.
But I need a counselor that's gonna think about this between now and, you know, whatever, you know, or even the, ministering assignment. I think to some elders quorum presidents, like, really, like, how difficult is this? Like, you just kinda, like, text the person, call the person, but by the time they leave, they they may feel that spirit of, like and even commit in their heart. This
month, it's gonna be different. I'm gonna be the ministering brother or sister, you know, and then they leave the room and it's like and it's that out of sight out of mind dynamic. Right? Yes. Absolutely. And so I kind of love the way he would you just explained you would approach someone because to me, if you approach them that way, you're doing it with the lens of they're not doing this on purpose and being difficult.
Because, like I said, attention deficit is the dumbest name ever, and I've heard experts say that. So it really is. It's not about attention all the time. It's really a self management issue. And so if you have a counselor, let's say, that is trying to manage their job and their relationships and all these things and that's their struggle, then, yes, it's going to be a little bit trickier to do it in a calling, but most of the time they have a strong testimony
or they're working on that journey. They're going to want to serve and it's going to bless their lives. So they shouldn't be, you know, not given the opportunity, but do you just let it go and not hold them accountable? No. Do you text him every day to make sure he did it? No. But having that compassionate conversation kind of with that lens of understanding, I think, goes such a long way, and he's going to respond to you differently
and not be as offended. So Yeah. I feel like that's a bit of a segue. Maybe you had another question about that but No. No. We can segue. Go for it. Let's do it. Okay. Alright. Hey. Because with you talking about this and the reason I keep saying having that extra, you know, changing your lens of how you see them is so important when it comes to ADHD because rejection sensitive dysphoria is something. Have you ever heard of that?
I've not. No. Okay. Well, it is something that, especially with adults and older kids, but even little kids, it's one of the most impairing parts. It's not a diagnosis, but it's a symptom of ADHD, and it's only been talked about in the last 10 years or so. I guess don't quote me on 10 years, but the last 2 years. But, I mean, I could send you articles to link or whatever, but it is one of the most important parts about ADHD. And
let me just explain it. I'm really passionate about this part too because, like I said, you will never find you know, you've heard of the term empath before, and the most sympathetic, empathetic people that feel really deeply
is what you're going to find. It's usually our artists and our musicians and, you know, just wonderful, wonderful people that care and are are incredible, but they're also their senses are so heightened sometimes and their sensitivities that it can impact them very negatively, and it turns, you know, to shame. And so rejection sensitivity is something that goes along with ADHD most of the time. And what it is is it's an intense rejection feeling, but it's not just rejection because it is I mean,
nobody likes to feel rejected. We'll go to back to that again. Sure. I I nobody likes it. It's not fun. But usually people just feel kind of a discomfort with it. They don't like it, whatever. But you're going to have people with ADHD that deal with this more sensitive than others, you know. And so they're gonna be sensitive to rejection, criticism, obviously. So a lot of times it's perceived rejection, by the way. So it's not even, like,
a real thing. Like, almost like, I didn't get invited to that party or I remember one time my wife and I was we're driving through our neighborhood and we saw several of our ward members, like, out having a picnic barbecue, and there was this feeling of, like We thought it was fun. Why didn't you invite me? You know? Yes. And, again, it's not like anybody rejected me, but at the end of the day, it's like I can't invite the whole ward over
and, you know, I get it. So but there's this feeling of, like, ah, that hurts. Or in reality, nobody hurt me. Yeah. I know. And and I know this isn't your therapy session or anything, but, you know, how long do you hold on to that? Sometimes people with ADHD, and again, you haven't been diagnosed, so who knows? Yeah. But they hold on to it for a long time. Right? And they and so it's more even a correction, like, as a parent, you correct all the time and as a teacher, you're just like, hey.
I remember my son would click a pen over and over because he's a little bit fidgety in a boring class. And the teacher was like, who's clicking that pen? You know, just trying to get someone to stop. And he just thought she hated him, you know, because he usually had a lot of teachers love him because he was so smart and well behaved. Would you ever think of someone like that having ADHD? I would never think of someone that Yeah. That's interesting. You know? And so, but he
thought that she did not like him. He was convinced. Even teasing, if you have little kids that get teased by others they take it like they are not liked and hated or also your own perception of falling short or disappointing someone is really intense. And so it's often an intensity that doesn't go away like it does. Some things you can be sarcastic with
people and it just rolls off. But other people that deal with this type of thing are going to hold on to it for a week and think of it in their bed every night. Right? Or have something like you just described and can't let it go and it turns to internal shame of I'm not good enough. And that's where it's you can see the parallels of the gospel how that can be really dangerous in the way we redeal with people Yeah. Even
their relationship with God even. So Yeah. So it sounds like and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the you know, again, you may if you're working with somebody that's in this world, like, again, holding them accountable, being direct, and saying, listen. I really need you to come through, but also following it up with an immense amount of love and encouragement and saying, hey. Listen. You're my first counselor. You're my wingman. Like, we can do this. I have
full confidence in you. Like, that's the only reason I'm having this conversation is because I know how capable you are. Let's go get it. Let's keep talking, and here we go. Right? Is that fair to say? Absolutely. I guess I should just say it all and just be put a silly thing out there that I always tell people to do, and it's a positive sandwich. You've probably heard that
before. Uh-huh. Right? You just say the positive, what you're saying positive, give them the little bit of feedback, and then end with the positive. And that goes such a long way. Right? So just the way you approach it is so important, So Cool. Yeah. That's awesome. In the remaining time, maybe take us to unless is there any other point in that realm that you wanted to hit on? Or Mostly real quick just because it will matter later.
Uh-huh. I would say because people and, again, you're not gonna know everyone in your ward who's diagnosed with ADHD and who's not. But like you said, just kind of be aware of, you know, it's as inheritable as hyped. And so if you're a parent that has it, it's likely your kids are gonna have
it. And if I could go back to school and get my master's, which I probably should do at some point, but I would probably study the church because my parents each have 7 siblings and there's well, they wouldn't all say it but there have been a few diagnosed with ADHD and I'm like I can tell you this person likely has it, this person likely has it.
You know, if you have suicide in your family, if you have alcoholism, we are members of the church, we believe not drinking alcohol, but there are many that are closet alcoholics because they're self medicating. Right? And so if you have all these things in your family history, there's a very good chance there's ADHD going on. And many times we embrace like, oh yeah, there's some anxiety and depression, but a lot of times that's the smoke and not the fire. And so you've got to
dive into that. And it's, there's such good news if you get diagnosed with ADHD. A lot of people are misdiagnosed with bipolar, and it's usually just ADHD. And so I wanna say to people in the church because so my parents, like I was saying, the 7 siblings on both sides, they're like, oh, it just seems like everyone has ADHD. And they'll they'll be like, well, in the church, you're probably going to see it more. And, again, this is Beck Rebecca Buffington's theory. Okay? I don't
think this has been studied. But number 1, you had to have impulsive, riskier, willing to do all of that to go across the planes. Like, there were people that stayed behind that didn't want to. Yes. They had a lot of faith and that plays into it for sure, but, you know, a lot of people probably came over that have ADHD, willing to leave, you know, all of that with really strong faith as well. Some that weren't willing to do that. And then we have big families.
And if it's inheritable, you know, and you have someone that has 2 kids, maybe one of their kids has it, they have kids, you know, that's not as many. But if you have 8 kids and 4 or to 5 out of 8 have ADHD, they're going to spread it to more. You know? So it's I think it is more prevalent in the church. That's just my theory. But Yeah. And it's worth just being aware of. Right? That I think so. We're not
doing a blanket diagnosis, but No. No. No. This is all just really helpful to just, you know, put in the back of our mind. And as we see these things, it will maybe trigger us to be a little more patient, a little more direct, a little more encouraging. Right? And we'll get into I I'm not just saying just lay over and let it all happen. Oh, well. That's not what I'm saying for sure. But you do need to watch because you talked about even OCD and scrupulosity.
You've heard of that. Right? Yep. Mhmm. Scrupulosity and how people get really perfectionistic about, you know, living the gospel and being obedient, and that is really great. But someone with rejection sensitive dysphoria, they often become perfectionists so that they don't they're trying to not feel rejection. Right? They really don't want to do that. So they're going to try to do everything perfect and that is no way to live being, you know,
so worried about any mistake or whatever. They also become people pleasers and they lose who they are because they're trying to please them. And then you also see giving up. You see people quitting high school because they can't be what they feel like they're falling short. That's embarrassing and they feel rejected by people
if they do that. And so often they get to a place where they won't even apply for a job because they're so worried about the rejection or even applying for a job, going on a date. I mean, you'll see lots of things with kids, you know, or even applying for college. And so they'll give up before they even try. And so understanding what's at the root of that is so important, I think. Really helpful. So take us into primary, like, maybe the back to the children as far as what
do we do about it there? Like, as, you know, we can do the the wiggle songs. We can hyperemphasize that reverence and those things, but anything else we should keep in mind in the for the children? Yes. Absolutely. I do think most they're really I personally don't think there are any really mean primary teachers out there. Most people are really good Yeah. You know, with that and really sweet with the kids, and that's wonderful. But there's always I do think it's important.
So, again, I I do feel like the primary especially tries to understand that that there's kids and they're not showing a purpose and whatever. Because by the time they're youth, it's like, no. They should have figured it out by now. Right? They shouldn't do that. But I do think you still have those 1 or 2 that are really disruptive, can't stay in their seat. You know, as a sunbeam, you're like that's okay, but later that gets really hard.
And so I think the first thing, like, I've already mentioned is changing your lens and not I love Ross Greene's work. He talks so much about he has a book called Raising Human Beings, and he says kids do well if they can,
not if they want to. And that's really important because I literally have a boy in my class that will try I could tell that, you know, he's been told you need to sit still in our class or in primary or whatever, but he's just, like, almost tensing up, like, oh, my body just makes me wanna, you know, jump and do things that it's so difficult for him to keep that inside. And he really isn't doing it on purpose, but can I tell you how many times he's been to the principal's office? Numerous. Right?
In school. And so it can be really distracting in a primary. And so I like when you have especially those one to maybe 3 or 4 kids that are the real issues, I guess. Change your lens, realize they're not doing it on purpose even though you've told them every week to, you know, stop misbehaving. You've tried singing all the wiggle songs. It's
still not working. It's really to me, a really good way to approach them is not in the moment in front of everyone, of course, but take those kids individually to the side. Afterwards, go to their house and talk to them, but just approach them and say something like this. I love to use the right wording because it matters. And I you always say I've noticed that. So you say I've noticed you're not accusing. You're not saying you are doing this. Right?
You're I've noticed that it's difficult for you and a lot of times you wanna say not to get out of your chair or to be reverent or to not disrupt and shout out answers or whatever. I noticed it's difficult for you to that's not the way. You don't focus on the behavior. You focus on when the behavior is happening. So behavior is always a symptom. It's not really what's going on. So you say, I've noticed it's been difficult for you when someone's giving a talk. What's going on? And ask them first.
Show them that you care and you're curious. And then they tell you and you try to have them help you think of a solution. So I always say things like, okay. Well, I wonder how we could make that better. You know? Do you maybe we could have a secret code word that if I say
this, that means, oh, yeah. You gotta, you know, remember to do this or whatever, but they love that extra, like, interaction, having a secret relationship with you to, you know, make it better and that you're both partnering together to make it better instead of this adult that's assuming they know what's going on and telling the kid what they have to do. Right? It's learning about the kid individually. And, again, I think primary, we do that pretty well, but it can be challenging in the
classroom. I don't think you get as much awareness in the classroom as as, like, the presidency does. Usually, the presidency knows knows all those things. So I just think that's really important with primary to have them understand. And, really, this a lot of people have a hard time with rewards, but do you know that that video with from president Uchtdorf's talk about the marshmallow where the kids are sitting there? Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Stanford
experiment. Right? The Stanford experiment. Right? So yes. And delayed gratification is one of the most difficult things. It's hard to have foresight and hindsight, and you really just think more about now. I'm not saying it's not possible, but if you have something that doesn't give a consequence or a reward pretty quickly, it's difficult to to even consider that for someone with ADHD. So it really is a neuropsychological thing that not just them being difficult.
So Yeah. I think that's important. So so you think about, like, I've had people say, well, I'm gonna have them if they have good behavior for 3 months, I'll buy them this. Right? The sticker chart. Right? Yes. Exactly. And I'm not saying sticker charts aren't good because they're actually amazing, but do more small frequent rewards. So even literally a Hershey kiss for the end of primary, you know, he knows he's gonna get it right away or something simple. And and a
lot of people are, like, that's bribery. I don't want to say, you know, maybe make it just happy food. It's not bribery though. It's incentive. And if you kind of partner with them to do that maybe they could do this where we could get this little thing when we're done, you know, if you just just working that out with
them is really, really, really beneficial. Yeah. I I love that idea of that creating that partnership in it of, like, you're not the problem that we're fixing, but, like, let's come together. Like, how can we figure this out together? Yeah. That's that's really, really helpful. Any other point principle concept? I mean, again, people literally earn PhDs, written books, and, you know, dedicate their life to this topic. But anything else you wanna make sure we we cover before
we wrap up? Okay. In general, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I do want to for sure talk about the youth Okay. Working because we did talk about, you know, they are gonna be more prone to dopamine seeking behaviors. Right? Like I talked about I already told you about the under aroused and whatever. And so, yes, they are 3 times more likely to deal with pornography and sex before marriage, even just substance abuse, you know, marijuana, all of that, even suicide.
So to me, when I read your book about shame, you know, your book is called Is God Disappointed in Me. Right? And I, kind of, love the example you gave at the beginning because I related with it so much. And, again, I grew up in a very orthodox home and me and my dad was bishop and seminary teacher and, you know, all
these things. So I was I was a pretty good girl, but I remember having a very similar experience as you said at the beginning where I was like, oh, no. I need to go talk to the bishop about something and I was terrified. Right? Yeah. And the bishop was amazing. Like, there was so much shame about who I am or who I'm not and thinking about that because I internalized so much. And so, also, when I was engaged, I had bishop Brad Wilcox as my bishop Oh, cool. With my husband.
And, you know, I remember, like, we were kissing or something, like, and we laid down, you know, and we weren't supposed to do that. And, oh my gosh. And so I remember dreading going in to talk to him because I felt so much shame that I had made a mistake. You know? I was a perfectionist in trying to live obediently, and I'll never forget him, you know, me just so distressed, my now husband sitting there. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. We were kissing and
we laid down. You know, it was just no. And and he was, like, clapping for us and said, oh my gosh. I love that you guys are attracted to each other. And he gave us this huge hug. I don't know if you've met him, but he's Yeah. Amazing like that. Right? He is definitely that way. You're getting a hug if you meet Brad Wilcox. So You you're getting a hug no matter what. And so he just kinda was like, you're human. I love it. You know? And I was not expecting that experience at all.
And I think that's really important to understand the rejection sensitive dysphoria because if you are doing a correction with a kid like you said that is struggling to manage his, you know, pornography addiction or whatever, we all know it's stimulating for everyone. We all know that staying on video games is challenging for kids to get off, but it's going to be more challenging for people with ADHD because it's a constant immediate reward and it gives you that dopamine hit, you
know? So I think it's really important to understand. I don't know. Again, not trying to brown nose, but I think the leaders should read, especially bishops that deal with youth, should read your book about how to help them understand the difference between shame and guilt and what guilt is to help them move forward so that they don't because I promise you they are doing that, especially if they have ADHD. They are thinking I am wrong. I am bad.
I am this, not I've done something bad, you know, or something against the commandments. So helping them understand that, I think, is so so important. Even not going on a mission. Right? If you have guys that don't end up going on a mission, they need to know there's a place for them in the church, whether they do or don't. So many times they're gonna going to feel a lot of shame about that too because they have, you know, fallen short of the expectation or whatever.
So you don't I'm not saying just let it go that they're doing pornography or all the things I was just talking about, but hold them accountable for sure, but help them understand their worth. Right. Yeah. That's powerful. That's powerful. And I guess, I mean, if you force me, I guess we'll link to my book if people wanna check it out. Okay. It's really well done. I I'm still I'm on chapter 5, but still, so far, it's just been really good.
And and I just think that's a very important message in the church that needs to be Yeah. Brought out. Yep. Love it. So anything else in in terms of youth that need to be mentioned? Just they're going to struggle working on goals. Right? Things that when you have executive function issues, things that you're supposed to be doing over a long period of time, you don't keep that in mind. If you have working memory issues, which is an executive function, you're going to struggle to keep things in
mind. So you think of someone trying to lose weight. Right? They will likely do well not eating sugar or whatever their goal is for a while, but it's hard to make decisions. You're impulsive. You make those decisions in the moment more often when you have ADHD. It's not everyone's issue, but it can be such an issue. So you are not going to be able to work on the goal as as well. Make the goal smaller,
check-in with them more kind of thing. But if they're struggling to work on goals and they do start to feel that shame, it leads to isolation, not wanting to come, not ruminating is such an issue, you know, ruminating about overthinking everything, not wanting to come see the Bishop. So you just having that compassion and understanding about that is so so so helpful. Yeah. And that's really helpful especially with this focus, you know, the the quadrant, right, of in the in the program.
You know, I'm just thinking, like, you know, the goals are important and, you know, there's sort of this mark to reach for. But more importantly, seeing it is an opportunity not necessarily to accomplish the goal as much as, like, helping them begin to process. Like, what are some tools you can use to, like, you know, step back and and access that executive function? Like, let's just focus on what what are we trying to accomplish
today. Let let's see if we can do this by the end of the, you know, weekly activity tonight and see how it goes, and we'll follow-up. And I don't know. Just just focusing more on this, the the process, the the resources, the skill, the tools of of getting it done rather than actually accomplishing
it. Right? Absolutely. And kinda like we said, you're not gonna be able as a bishop to now understand ADHD so well that you can diagnose everyone in your ward, but I think changing considering these things will help everyone, especially youth because their prefrontal cortex isn't done developing yet. No matter what, they're gonna have a significant function issues. Right? You just have it more intensely with ADHD. But, you know, if you see them not writing it down or you make a goal,
say, hey. How are you gonna remember this? Who in your life again, it's not it shouldn't be the bishop. He has enough to do. But who in your life can help hold you accountable to this? Who can you check-in with? Who can you because if it's something they're embarrassed about, they may not wanna tell a parent. Of course, that's always encouraged, but they may not want to. So, you know, is there
a friend that you know? You know, at school, I always tell kids, if you forget to a lot of times they'll do assignments and forget to turn it in. So I'll say, okay. Who's your buddy in your class that will remind you every day that's good at that? You know? So just making sure that taking that extra step in time to make sure they can be successful in doing these goals and breaking them down for sure. It's huge. Cool. Well, this is so helpful, so informative.
I think my mom actually just reached out to me a few days ago and said and asked because she's in the state primary presidency, and she asked me about if I had any content about, reverence in primary, things like that. So now I have an episode to send on to her. Email lesson, it could be Yep. It's probably the ADHD kids rousing up the other kids. Yeah. Right. In primary way, it's such an issue. Exactly. No. Yeah. We don't wanna label, and it's definitely
not an excuse. They still need to figure it out and try to be reverent in all of that. But there's ways you can approach it. So Rebecca, if people wanna connect with you or learn more about your coaching practice and whatnot, where where would you send
them? Yeah. So I have a website it's just, rebeccabuffington.com and I don't know if you link things in the show notes, but I have some amazing, Russell Barkley is the leading clinical researcher on ADHD, and he has incredible content that's scientifically based, right, on studies, not just what you hear randomly. And I can link that because he does one on adults in ADHD and even parenting.
Kids with ADHD, 30 essential things you need you need to know, and he's really slow and boring, which is hard for my brain. So you can speed it up, but it's really good content and can help people understand even more. So if you don't mind, I'll send those to you and you can link
them. That makes me wonder. I wonder if we could do a study about what speed do people listen to audio content depending, you know, if they're ADHD because I'm I'm always at 2 point o. But some people say I can't get past 1.5, but anyways. So I'm 2.0 and I well, some it depends on who it is. Yeah. But, yes, sometimes I do 2.0 and I have to be doing something while I'm listening. Yes. Like my color by number or cleaning or because working with my hands, I really wish I could sit and crochet
during separate meeting. I would get so much more out of it, but whatever. That's, you know Well, some people do. Judged. But Some people say too. I love general conference, but after general conference at 2.0, so much better. I love that. Yes. It is. It is. It is. I love it. I love it.
So Yeah. Ravi, this is a great last question I have for you is as you reflect on your time as a leader or even in this effort of being a leader and and stepping up and creating resources for those, struggling with ADHD, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? I guess it's led me to the compassion I have for my clients and anyone I serve in the church that we're all doing the best we can.
And I think I realized that, you know, anyone that's sitting there thinking, why isn't this person at church? Or why do I smell alcohol on them? Or they don't seem to be doing everything they should be doing. I realized I need the savior just as much as they do, because I'm having a hard time seeing them like the savior would. And that is the biggest thing is it helps me see people and look past their behavior.
Being a leader of them, I realize how different we all are that way and the different challenges we face, and it's not always what it appears in front of us. And so, to me, that's me being successful in my business, and I know people feel that from me. And being like the savior is our ultimate goal. You know? It's it's not perfect, but it's easy to love people that are doing what you want. My husband's inactive right now, and and that was really hard for me.
Like I said, I grew up really orthodox. Like, no. And I I found the guy who was a return missionary married in the temple. You know? And he I know now we see a lot of people that have left the church, but that was years ago. And I didn't know what to do, but I wanted to stay married to him. So learning to see him was huge and love him and realize that that is my goal. It's easy to have charity when people are doing what you want, but our real test is can we do it
when they're not? Can we have patience, love, long suffering, you know, all those things in Moroni 7 I think it's 745. Anyway, I can't remember, but it describes charity. And that is the goal, and I have a long way to go. But being a leader helps me learn to do that better, I think. And I I love my time even though every time I get a big calling, it's very stressful, and I feel all those imposter syndrome feelings, like, I shouldn't be doing
this, so why'd they ask me? But that is what I come away with every time is knowing how to be more like the savior. That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. You can either leave a comment on the, post related to this episode at leading saints.org, or go to leading saints.org/contact,
and send us your perspective or questions. If there's other episodes or topics you'd like hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to leading saints.org/contact and share with us the information there. And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.
Remember, to watch the interview about scrupulosity, go to leading saints.org/14 for free access to the mentally healthy saints virtual library. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.