It's finally available. I've been working on a manuscript for the past 4 years and it is finally a book I can hold in my hands. It's titled, Is God Disappointed in Me? Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. This book has gotten so much attention that it is already a number one Amazon bestseller. I'm beyond amazed. In just a few words, I wrote is God disappointed in me for Latter day Saints who often feel overwhelmed by the gospel and who are constantly worrying if they are doing enough.
It's for the Latter day Saint who have stepped away from the church. It's for the individuals who appear to be living right but still can't find peace and happiness. And frankly, it's for everyone who enjoys listening to the Leading Saints podcast. You will love and cherish this book. Now warning, you might want to consider purchasing multiple copies to share. 1 bishop who got an advanced copy, read it in 1 weekend, and then literally purchased 100 additional copies.
You can order it on Amazon. The link is in the show notes. Or starting in March, you can find it in your local Costco in Idaho, Utah, and Arizona. It's called, is god disappointed in me? And you can order it now. Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading Saints, it's important that you know what is this Leading Saints thing. Well, Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better prepared to lead. And the way we do that is through content creation. So
we have this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We have virtual conferences, so much more. And articles on our website. I mean, I could go on and on. Right? And we encourage you to, jump in, check out Leading Saints, go to the search bar at leading saints.org and and type in some topics and see what pops up. We're just glad you're here to join us. The following episode is a throwback episode, one that was published previously and
was extremely popular. To see the details of when this was originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this throwback episode. Welcome back to the Leading Saints podcast. My name is Kurt Frankem. I will be your host. Once again, nobody seems to fill this chair but me, so I'll keep filling it. Now if you're new to Leading Saints, it's important that you know what we are. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter
day saints be better prepared to lead. And we primarily do that through content creation like this podcast. We have a website that you need to go visit at leading saints.org, and there you can produce all the other forms of dynamic content that we have around leadership principles in the context of being a Latter day Saint. Now this episode is a bit different. I have a cohost on this one coming up because, it's a collaboration episode, a simulcast,
if you will, with, Faith Matters. Now if you're not familiar with Faith Matters, well, put that on your agenda to go to faithmatters.org and check out the good content that, they're producing. It's a phenomenal podcast as well that you should subscribe to. And we have some upcoming exciting announcements as far as collaborations and and things that we're gonna partner with, with Faith Matters. They're a faith promoting awesome organization.
The more I get to get to know the people behind the scenes and that are they're running that organization, I'm just, like, man, we could do so much together and, there's there's some exciting things coming in the future that you'll hear all about with Faith Matters. So Bill Turnbull is, one of the directors there at, I don't know what exactly what how he's entitled himself. He's just an awesome guy that's running a faith matters in a dynamic way.
And so he joins me for this interview where we interview Thomas Griffith. Now if you're a legal mind out there or a political junkie, you may be familiar with the name of of Thomas Griffith. He is, according to his Wikipedia profile, is a former federal judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. Before his appointment to the bench, he was senate legal counsel, the chief legal officer of the United States
Senate. In November 2011, Griffiths was included in the New Republic's list of Washington's most powerful but least famous people. And in his personal life, brother Griffiths actually served as a stake president and worked as legal counsel at Brigham Young University from 2,000, 2005. He's a convert to the church. He joined the church. What does it say here as a junior at Langley High School in McLean, Virginia. Did I say that right? Is it McLean? All
you Virginians are yelling at me. And so he's a convert to the church, but has been since, being in high school and served a mission and just a phenomenal individual, a legal mind. And we thought it would be interesting, both Bill and I, to sit down with, Tom and discuss president Oakes' recent talk about the constitution. As you may remember, in the April 2 2021 general conference, president Oakes surprised everybody by standing up and saying, I will now speak about the United
States Constitution. And it was a dynamic, incredibly interesting talk. And, we wanted to talk about in the context of that talk, how it applies to maybe our religious experience as leaders as far as when we have political discussions happening, how can we, unify a ward with maybe diverse political views and, on and on echo chambers and, you know, things that the poison of social media and and some of these things. So it's
a phenomenal discussion. Like I said, a little different than your typical Leading Saints episode, but it was fun to sit down with the people of Faith Matters and, put this together. So I'd like to thank Bill Turnbull for being my cohost on this, interview with Thomas Griffith. Hello, everyone. I'm Bill Turnbull from Faith Matters, and we are doing a joint podcast episode today with the good faith folks at Leading
Saints. So we have That's right. Kurt Frankemon with us, and, we brought judge Thomas b Griffith or Tom to friends into this conversation because we're going to be talking about something pretty important that has implications to the law and politics and society more generally. So, Tom, welcome from Virginia. Hey. Thank you. Good to be here. Tom is a constitutional scholar, teaches at Harvard currently. He's just barely retired as a
federal court judge. He's been general counsel for Brigham Young University and general counsel to the US Senate for a number of years. So that's quite a, it's quite a life you've lived. I've been lucky. I've been very fortunate. Yeah. And it's kept you on the East Coast for most of your life. Yeah. I'm a native native Washingtonian. So we miss you. We don't we don't see you often enough. But, anyway, it's brought Tom in to talk about this. I think he has some particular insights on this topic.
We're talking about the address given by Balan h Oaks at the most recent general conference in which he made quite a an impassioned plea, and then finished by making a bold statement or challenge to the church. And, the oh, about a day after conference, I got a text from from Tom, text her out with some friends of ours, and I'm just gonna read these were the the money call them the money quotes, the money quotes from the Dallin
H Oaks address. So I think it's just why don't we start out and just read this, and then we can kind of take this discussion where it needs to go. Listen carefully to this. It's remarkable. So he says this comes from the Oaks the, Oaks talk. He says, on contested issues, we should seek to moderate and unify. There are many political issues, and no party, platform, or individual candidate can satisfy all personal preferences.
Each citizen must, therefore, decide which issues are most important to him or her at any particular time. Then members should seek inspiration on how to exercise their influence according to their individual priorities. This process will not be easy. It may require changing party support or candidate choices even from election to election. I don't think a lot of people do that, to be
honest. I think the the more commonly is people identify with political party almost in the way they are, identify with religion. In fact, there's, I've I've heard people say that political identity is the new religion, has become the new religion, and I don't think we're exempt from that, unfortunately, in our community. Any thoughts on that? Well, I I'll I'll start with, he's talking to me all my adult life.
I've been a single party voter, Republican. When I became a judge, I no longer affiliated with the Republican party, but so so he's calling me to repentance. I need to think things through more than I have. Now, in my defense, during that time, I never thought for a minute that my views about the role of the state and politics were driven by my
faith commitments. I and I've always thought that was just a really bizarre idea because I had plenty of Latter day Saint friends who were devout and fully committed who were Democrats, right? And so the thought never occurred to me that somehow, you know, I was representing the gospel better because I was, you know, voting for George W Bush. I go, what? That's just that's just strange. So but no, but I, yeah, but I'll go further than that. I'm a single issue voter, right?
I'm a pro life guy. That's always been the issue that's that's motivated me. And so President Oaks is saying, think about it, Tom, you know, think this thing through. So, I It gets more it gets a little more specific. I'm gonna continue to read this, but he says such independent actions will sometimes require voters to support candidates or political parties or platforms whose other positions they cannot approve.
This is one reason we encourage our members to refrain from judging one another in political matters. We should never assert that a faithful Latter day Saint cannot belong to a particular party or vote for a particular candidate. We teach correct principles and leave our members to choose how to prioritize and apply those principles on the issues presented from time to time. And then this final very strong admonition.
We also insist and we ask our local leaders to insist that political choices and affiliations not be the subject of teachings or advocacy in any of our church meetings. And this is why we bring Leading Saints into this conversation because this is what Leading Saints does. Leading Saints helps leaders at the various local levels understand and do their jobs better. They have conversations around just these kinds of things. And so, Kurt, does this sound like a challenge for Leading Saints to,
Yeah. For sure. You know, because this is the tricky part and and this is where general authorities have, like, president Oaks have the impossible job of speaking generally to an international audience about very specific issues in in a local area per se. And so, you know, you don't expect them to get very specific
on guidance. And so these are great points, but Tom, my question for you is like, you know, oftentimes leaders feel like, okay, we've heard this great talk now as a leader, what am I supposed to do with it? Like, you know, how can I apply this or how should this shift or change maybe the culture in my ward or stake? Any thoughts come to mind as far as how leaders can maybe what leaders can take away from this and apply in their service?
Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, I'm loathed to tell my leaders, what to do. But let's imagine I was a leader. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Hypothetically. But yeah. Hypothetically. So I think the first thing is, is it I? Right? Right? Look at me. Right? Am I doing what President Oaks counsels to do? Do I have those sorts of and I already confessed to you that the long bow that he drew hit me,
right, hit me. And so I think the first thing to do is each one of us, leader or not, members need to say, how did how does this apply to me? I don't participate in the Twitter world, but I've read some articles that apparently some people have characterized the the discussion in in Twitter world over President Oaks' talk was that every that too many people were saying, yeah. See, he's going after the other guys and and Right. Yeah. Not me and not me. That, you know, that's a human,
failing, a human danger. And I think that's the first thing that we have to do is say, okay. How can I change? How can I be a better disciple of Christ based on what he said? So I think that's the first thing. Right? That's step 1. I think I think it's worth it's probably worth recognizing. And, Tom, I grew up a republican, and I'm somewhat so all cards on the table. My political views are relatively conservative.
But, so I felt like he was talking to people that I'm the the problem seems to be I think he's recognizing a problem that the church seems to be pretty rigidly identified with a particular political party. Well, that's been a long time concern of the leadership
of the church. I mean, when was it that elder Jensen, elder Marlon Jensen, when he was in the presidency of the 70, was directed by the first presidency to speak to the Salt Lake Tribune in an interview in which he encouraged more Latter day Saints to be Democrats, you know. And that was an assignment, right, because it's just bizarre. Right? It's just for folks on the outside looking in, they just assume, oh, you're a Latter day Saint. You must
be a conservative Republican. And, and that and I think that blunts our witness to the world. It blunts towards our ability to do the types of good things we'd like to be doing throughout the world. So so I I this isn't a new thing. I think we're in a particularly polarized time, but I hear the leadership of the church urging been urging this for for quite a while. Yeah. But this polarization is really Yeah. It's different.
It's different. It's different and worse. Yeah. You can talk about why that polarization exists right now. It's complicated, right? And you take sociologists, psychologists, and anthropologists to figure it out. But we know the symptoms of it, and maybe they're
exacerbating it. And it's that, you know, we tend to be sorting ourselves by living with like minded people who share our views of the world, and then we get our information about the world from those same people, and then we talk to those same people, and we don't and increasingly, we don't have interaction with people who see the world very differently than we do. Or when we do have interaction with them, it's hostile. Right? So those are all the symptoms of it, and and they probably
exacerbate it as well. Now, Kurt, when when Tom and I were growing up, and you're young, so you wouldn't relate to this at all, but there were, like, 3 networks and 3 news networks. You got your information through these networks. Right? And they pretty much kind of agreed. There was a like, they were, they were respectable to the sets of facts. I think, you know, they were responsible considered
themselves responsible journalists. And so we sort of had the same set of facts that we were dealing with as a country since media has become fragmented and then particularly since social media began, media had and, Tom, you can comment on this, but cable news media and social media have really perfected the art of giving you that information that you already believe, confirming your biases, and then firing up your brain with news bulletins every 10 minutes that
keep your brain the fear centers of your brain fired up. And they create these we've created tribes around these media echo chambers. And so I guess the that first question you asked or that you brought up, Tom, is it I? The first question you gotta ask yourself is, do I live in an echo chamber? So as a leader, do I live in an echo chamber? And if I do, am I missing? Do am I not even understanding the people that are in my congregation?
Yeah. But but there's no question. We've got this proliferation of media outlets. Many of them make no pretense of objectivity. That's not a good thing. This makes it work harder. But I I don't wanna say that the golden age was when everybody, you know, was watching Chet Huntley or Eric Sevieride or Walter Cronkite, and then we ought to go back to that. But anyway, but I'm with you on the the the echo chamber. It's a huge problem. It's huge problem. We've got a nice place
to get out of it. I just want to say that I'm not in favor of going back to let's just have 3 white guys tell us what happened today. Right. Okay. Tom, I'm curious. Just, I think we're the the dynamic that happens, you know, as mortals, you know, this world would be so much better if we weren't all mortals, you know, but, that is the case. But then we deal with this thing called cognitive bias. Right.
And so I think the tricky thing about, you know, these political dynamics in our religious culture is that we often look for and find connections to our bias in doctrine or in tradition. And therefore we feel promoted in some of these opinions we haven't. So to me, it's, I think a lot of people hear this direction from president Oaks and think, yeah, great.
Well, that's not my problem because obviously I follow a doctrine when in reality, maybe some of those kind of biases are highlighting certain aspects of doctrine over others. Any any thoughts on that? No. I I agree with you entirely. And I it gets back to the, you know, is it I at the last supper? Am I the one? It it am I gonna be the one to betray betray
you? And so that speaks to a sense of humility that that I certainly don't have, but aspire to, to be introspective and thoughtful and always questioning always questioning my assumptions. Right? And and, you know, and Jesus, that's who the person of Jesus is. Now I'm not watching The Chosen, I guess everyone else is sort of watching it, but Oh, you're missing out. Yeah, I'll catch up with it. I'll catch up with it. But I did see an advertisement for it that
really struck me. It's an interchange between, I think it's Peter and and Jesus, and and Peter says, Wow, that's different. Then Jesus says, Get used to different. Right? You know that that I love that. I mean, that's the Lord we worship. He's challenging us. Get used to different. That's the 9th article of faith. He will yet reveal many great and important things. So I think as as Latter day Saints, as disciples of Christ, there's a tentativeness about our views on these sorts of things.
We always need to keep in mind, we might be wrong. We might be wrong. And so, and especially when it comes to political views. There's a great essay out there by Hugh Nibley. For my generation, it's like canonical, it's scripture, it's called Beyond Politics, where Nibali, who was an anti Vietnam War Democrat, right, environmentalist Democrat, writing from that perspective, not necessarily from that perspective, but with that background, talks about the role of politics for
disciples of Christ. It's a brilliant essay. And the takeaway, so you don't have to go read it, I would recommend anyone go find it, but if you can't find it, it's online, it's easy to find. The takeaway, as I recall, is just be real tentative about politics, okay? Just be real tentative about that because that's not what we're here to do. We're here to build Zion. And if those 2 are ever intention, now forget the politics,
work on building science. Now, we live in the world, we're the salt of the earth, we ought to be involved in trying to make our communities better in politics. But we got to figure out a way, I think, as Latter day Saints to do it differently than the world has done. We're new to national politics. Right? It's really just been since the 1950s 1960s and then really recently, the last 20 years, where we have been become major players on
the national political stage. Prior to that time, it was all Utah. We're new to this, and and it's sort of like we don't have the self confidence to have a style of our own in politics. And so we just sort of ape what the big kids have been doing for a long time, you know, what the Democrats and Republicans do. And that's not that doesn't speak well. Which is really increasingly those you disagree with. You label them it's not enough to disagree with them. You have to infer that they're
somehow bad people or evil. Evil. Enemies to destroy. Yeah. And and then narratives develop around that. And since we don't have people create these compelling narratives, often they get into things like conspiracy theories, which by the way, the church just took another little stand kind of against. They're saying, if you if you're following sources that are leading you to what fear, contention, conspiracy theories, you need to back away from those sources.
I was actually added to the church handbook. So I guess one of the but, you know, everybody thinks, yeah, everybody's conspiracy theory is crazy except the one that I believe in. Right? So because I've got got all these great reasons, we get in these echo chambers, and I see it all the time, and you get this one line of thinking and it ends up demonizing an entire section of humanity. That's not what the gospel challenges us to do. So if we're heading down that road, we need to recognize that.
As leaders, I know both of you have been leaders. You've been bishops. Tom, you've been a state president. I'm really curious about how you would how you 2 would see this conversation. You see the challenge. I think we we know what the challenge is. How would you see this conversation unfolding in a ward since Elder Oaks is clear in his language, we insist that this happen in our stakes and wards? Well, I you know, if it were Bishop Griffith again, I I'd get up and I'd read that
language and then I'd expound upon it. And I would say, when you step into the foyer, no politics at all, not in your lessons, let's leave them out of the hallway conversations. Because as you're talking to your friend about your political views, someone else is passing by who has different views, and that creates contention. I mean, the the great symbol of our faith, in addition to the beehive, is the sacrament of the
Lord's Supper. And the way we administer that, right, and we pass it to one another, That's hugely symbolic. I mean, if if I if you're Roman Catholic, you you receive the Eucharist from the priest, and that's hugely symbolic. Right? We don't do that. We get it from one another, which is a symbol, I think, of the way we're supposed to be inextricably intertwined with one another. Right? It's a symbol that we offer to one another, the emblems of Christ's death and resurrection.
And there's just no place in that symbol for division, whether where it comes from any source at all. And so if I, you know, if I were the Bishop again, I would give a talk about that, and I'd say I'd put it in a part of a larger context of we're here to have our hearts knit together in love, that we're here to to to everything that we do in the ward should be an echo of taking the sacrament one to another. And and here are some things that in our ward we don't do. Right?
And one of the things we don't do, and President Oaks has told me to insist on this with you, we don't do politics in our war. Once you step into the chapel, we don't do politics. You know, I wouldn't even go further than that. I would tell members that maybe this is out of line, maybe this isn't teaching correct principles and letting them govern themselves, maybe
this is trying to govern. It's to say, if you're real active in social media and calling out political positions and using your the gospel as a source of authority for that, cut it out. It's not helping, you're dividing. You're making people in our ward feel marginalized. And when you do that, you're going counter to the experience we just had taking the sacrament, and you're blunting our witness of Christ that John 17 tells us is the strongest witness we can offer is the unity that
we have. So yeah, I'd be pretty high minded and direct about it, but maybe that would be crossing the line. No, no, but no, the authority here is, president Oakes has said this. Right? Insist. Insist that that local leaders do that. That's strong language. Kurt, you related an experience you had. I think you're traveling in a it was a southern Utah, and you stopped in, and Yeah. We don't need to be too specific about where it was. What was your experiences?
Yeah. And just, you know, I've, generally grown up and lived in, in the salt lake valley, which in Utah context is much more progressive liberal area in the state. And, And so I'm, I'm maybe used to being in that context and hearing certain things or especially in a Sunday school class, whatnot. And just one weekend, I was traveling with my family and we stopped in a church in a much more conservative area of the state.
And I was just sort of intrigued by what was being said about specific political people and things. And I, and I just turned my wife and said, well, we're definitely not in Salt Lake anymore. Like this is, this is a different dynamic and, you know, politics and churches is interesting.
And I, and I'm not really sure if I have a solid answer for, you know, the, this, or solid response for this, but, you know, you think back and you, you to remember a better night since a bill brought up the age difference here for originally, but, you know, back when elder Ezra Taft Benson was speaking, you know, before he was president of the church and, you know, very clear where politically he stood even to the point of really rubbing people the wrong
way. And, and, but there, I think there's also a benefit of at least, you know, where the guy stood and then, you know, who QB Brown would stand up and you sort of knew where he stood. And, and so I have to wonder if there's a danger in sort of getting to a point
where we don't talk. Anything about our political opinions or perspectives, again, not necessarily in the context of Sunday school, but at least helping members understand and build the skillset of having conversations with people where you identify the differences, show empathy for those differences and move forward
as a more unified body. I just, I just worry if we go too far where now you sort of hear rumors like, Oh yeah, I think elder Razband is, you know, a lifelong Democrat or, but nobody really speaks in context of these differing political views, even though they wouldn't be really that controversial.
And so I wonder, you know, from a leadership perspective, if there's a way that we could encourage, again, not the hosting political day debates within the context of a church service or a Sunday school class, but encourage people to meet together, to discuss and, and even talk about maybe some skillsets they can do to talk through different opinions and walk away as friends rather than because right now what's happened, nobody talks in person.
And then we go to our social media, put on our mask of anonymity or whatever, and just, and, and spew these quotes and things that sort of hit people the wrong way. And then we think, well, I'm, I'm going to stay back from that person to church because he's crazy. Right. And so to me, like, it's a vacuum where social media has filled that void of, like, that political discussion is just so negative and
and nobody's better for it. You know, I'm with you on that, Curt, except there's gotta be a fundamental understanding, I think, that my political views are separate from my religious views. And that's a hard exercise to go through, in a culture that believes in revelation and inspiration and consecration.
So as I would say, yeah, have those discussions, but the ground rule needs to be a fundamental understanding that as President Oaks just taught us, you can have widely divergent political views and be an active member of the church. No one political party or even one political set of views is somehow closer to the Lord's will than another. It's got it's it has to be done in that framework. You've gotta take that off the table that Yeah. Hey. You know, I'm speaking for the
Lord here. The Lord's really with me. You know? Right. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Because Take that take that off the table, and then it's fun. And then it's fun. I I wanna hear. God does not have a an opinion, a strong opinion about marginal tax rates, for example. I'm pretty sure he does. I'm pretty sure he does. If anyway Which is not to say our faith shouldn't inform our political views. Of course, it almost Right. It almost Well, here's how it should inform our political views. Okay?
Matthew chapter 25. Right? Whatsoever you've done in the least of these, you've done it to me. My favorite quote comes from I'm a political conservative, comes from Mitch Daniels, former governor of Indiana, former budget director of the Bush administration, current chancellor of Purdue University. He said, in all things, our first thought must always be for those on the first rung of life's ladder and how we might help them climb.
So, yeah, I think the gospel does inform our politics in the sense that we need we understand that the purpose of politics is to help the least of these. Now, we can have vigorous debates about how you do that, right? Yeah. Bring on the debates. But we shouldn't have a debate about whether society should be ordered and structured in a way to help the least of these. So I will maybe is that too political? Am I just so
Jesus did live in this world, right? And He did start His resurrection started a new creation in this world, Right? We're we're trying to build Zion here and now. Right? How do you do that? It has real world implications. But I would say that's the gospel insight that begins the political discussion. Yeah. And so, Bill, can I just underscore
something that that Tom said? I really appreciate it as far as the leadership context is one thing a leader can do is not just encourage people to leave politics, you know, outside of these discussions in church, but also to give permission. Just, I think president Oaks did this this well, and you can be reiterated through local leadership, giving permission to say, you have permission to believe differently politically, and that's okay. And you have a
place here and we want you here. And, you know, we'd love to get your insight on the gospel and, and we hope that the gospel informs your political decisions, but you have permission to believe politically different than the other person. And that permission could go a long way in the context of of the local church. I think that's I think that's That's a good point. I think it's important for another reason. I was just looking at some some statistics from the last election. Apparently
okay. This there's a real age division here. So if you have a, you know, a certain age, an older age that is just assuming a certain thing is, you know, a certain political view is is more associated with the church. You've got it. Let me read this to you. So if this is from Harvard's study of the 2020 elections, more church members under the age of 40 voted for Biden than for Trump. K? So there's 47% Biden, 42% Trump. Those of those over 40,
80% voted for Trump, 18% for Biden. That's a pretty stark chasm between the ages, and so you run the risk. If you bring politics into too much, you run the risk of alienating a generation from a generation, and that's probably not even on our radar, you know, that that's the case. So that And and our evangelical friends are going through this moment right now as they see the the the identification with Trump, the Republican party general, and Trump in specific, has had a real negative impact
on their younger, younger members. And it's something that they're coming to, to, to grips with and a lot of self analysis of, you know, what's going on, what's going on here. That's a good lesson for us. Anytime a religion becomes too identified with a political movement, that's dragons me there. Yeah. Back to how you do this on the ward. So we got leaders now thinking, okay. Yeah. So I'm supposed to address this in my ward or in my stake. How should I do that? There's the option
of discussing ward council. You could do a 5th Sunday fireside on this possibly when we get back to that. Maybe a letter. How would you what are some ways that you would get this down to the end of the row in your stakes and awards? The $5,000,000 question. So So so I'm a I'm a big believer in active stake presidents and active bishops. Right?
Taking a lead. And so if I were, you know, a bishop, again, as I said, I would take, I would take SACRAMID and I would take a half hour talk and I would drill down on this point and I would wrap myself in the mantle of President Oaks so that no one would think this is just Griffith on his own agenda. And I'd that's what I would I would take Zach would be the time to do
that. I like that. You know, one of the the biggest, like, leadership mistakes that I claim is out there is that leaders often mistake an ability problem for motivation problem. So they may see individuals in their ward thinking, man, aren't they motivated to do what president Oaks says and not be so political and, and why do they do then? Why are they, why is sister so and so posting on Facebook, you know, and then this is not helping the ward. Oh, man. She just, she just put it in
the ward Facebook group. Now, what am I going to do? Right. And the reality is, is. It's not necessarily that they're unmotivated to be more kinder and not bringing their political views. Oftentimes they lack the skill and ability to do that.
And so through, like, Tom said, a sacrament, focus talk or a 5th Sunday or whatever it is focusing on the here's some things you can do to better, To better exercise the skill and practice it so that you can hear a different views or, or how, or you can keep the politics out. Let me, let's talk about the difference of doctrine and political views or these
things. So I think the more we focus on the ability component, it's going to help individuals be more motivated because they'll have the skillset to do so. So when I was a Bishop, it was a tiny ward. And, you know, it was a weak ward because I was the Bishop. Right? So it was a tiny ward. And when we had big issues that I wanted to talk about, what we would do is when SACRA meeting was over, we would just have everyone stay, and we call it a ward meeting. Everyone just stay in the chapel.
Primary's gonna be later. Sorry. The kids seem to be noisy. We get it. But we're gonna stay for the next half hour, and we're just gonna talk. And I come down off the stand, I get a chalkboard up there, and it would be like a town hall sort of meeting. And, I love that. And and they they worked really well. I mean, people aren't sort of used to that sort of format, so maybe that was maybe they, maybe they liked that part of it.
But I found that it allowed the Bishop to get in the role of of the teacher and to to have sort of discussions. So I in my thinking about it, maybe I wouldn't do a second meeting talk. I do one of these board meetings in the second hour to talk through this important instruction that's been given by president Oaks. Yeah. I love that. I think he goes with the principle. I think more most people would rather have a seat at the table
than to be preached to. Right. And, and sometimes in context, there's, it's appropriate to have that dynamic of preaching, but yeah, creating a forum where people can raise their hand and say, this is how it impacts me. And this is maybe something we could do. And, and getting that, you know, the town forum there. I love that idea. That's great. And in that process, the other part of that exhortation from Elder Oaks is is to show, charity and be open minded toward others.
We have to if we can't model this as a church, getting out of this demonizing people who don't agree with us, if we fall into that trap, that is the trap that the world has fallen into, and we can't fall into that trap. And just And and, Bill, let let let me just say, you know, this runs both ways. Right? I mean, you know, there are people, members of the church who cannot understand how any member of the church would vote for Donald Trump. Right? They believe that. Well,
you know what? That's not a very generous view. Right? They need to understand why good, reasonable people voted for Donald Trump. They need to understand. And if and if they can't do that, if they haven't exercised that level of empathy, they're not doing the hard work that's necessary. And and on the other side, the MAGA folks need to understand why, you know, a good member of the church
could vote for Joe Biden. That's an act of empathy, but we're called to do it by the covenants that we make and now by somebody we sustain as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Told us we gotta do it. So it works both ways. It has to work both ways. Yeah. It's gotta work both ways. Absolutely. Dom, I'm just curious, especially with your career and the different circles you've been in, you know, in politics and and on the East Coast and whatnot, how do you stay out
of your echo chamber? How do you, expose yourself to differing views to to consider some of these things? Yeah. Well, I mean, it, you know, it it it takes work, but I try to read lots of different sources. Right? Every day I read the New York Times, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and then I read Law and Liberty, Public Discourse, you know, on the right, and just try and try and see what other people are
thinking about. Now, you know, when I read public discourse and law and liberty, that's when I get the warm fuzzies and, oh, I'm right about everything. And then I read the editorial page of The New York Times, and I think, oh, how can people be sniffed out? So you have you try to do that. Now I have is this an advantage or disadvantage? So I used to be a Democrat. I worked for Moe Udall, Democratic Congress from Arizona, almost
president of the United States. I was a liberal anti war Democrat for until, I was joking earlier with Bill, until I learned to read, no, until my mid twenties when I Jack Kemp persuaded me to put his writings, speeches, that the party that would help folks on the margins most, I thought, was the Republican Party, so I made that switch. So because of that, I've never been able to demonize Democrats, because I was 1, and I have lots of friends who are that way.
And, same way, I'm also a convert to the church, so maybe I'm an unstable man. I mean, but I was raised as an Anglican, joined the church when I was a junior in high school. And because of that, I've never been able to demonize other faiths, right? These are my people, right? And they're not bad people. They just have different views than I do. They may be right in a lot of things, and I may be wrong in a lot of things. So anyway
but it takes work. I'm at a stage of life, in a position where I have the time, it's easier for me to do that than, you know, a young mother of 3 or 4 kids who's trying to do lots of other things. She doesn't have time to read all the things that Yeah. That that I do. And so I I get that. It's hard work. Questioning your own assumptions is a is a big one. And, you know, I we may end up cutting
this. I'll just tell you. But right before the election, I think it was the day before the election, we got a message from a friend, saying and it was, oh, no. It was not for the this this was just before the inauguration, actually. Just so the election had actually occurred. We got a letter from a friend on, it was a Facebook message.
And this is she was quite, animated about the fact that the election was going to be overturned, and she's this is this was going to happen, and she's we kinda said, you mean it's you know, there's going to be a march on the capital? They're gonna overturn this election? Absolutely, it's going to happen. And and she was in favor of that? Or She's in favor of it. Actually, she's a friend of ours now. Okay? And, you know, we pushed back and she kinda doubled down and she sent us a video. She's, of
it was a video. It's quite carefully made video that that basically the message was laid out the case for Mitt Romney being part of a global conspiracy to destroy our freedoms and, any number of things. And the way it did that is it showed that his firm, Mitt Romney's firm, which is Bain Capital, had invested in companies, and these companies, Monsanto Chemical and others. It was it was a ludicrous presentation, but presented in a way that could be persuasive if you didn't really know. Right?
And she was she said, these are the facts that you need to know about. And that I think it was that very day that Mitt got assaulted in the airport on the way back to Washington DC. And I just I looked at this and see this this terrible, you know, this Bain Capital. I I don't know Mitt. Do you know Mitt, Tom? No. No. I you know, I've met him, but we're Yeah. But I don't know Moe. But I do know a good part of the senior management at Bain Capital because they left Boston eventually
and and settled in Utah. And so one became a business partner of mine, and he was an original Bain Capital investor. And one was when I was it was in my ward, I was, immense president, he was our, scout master, these awful people that have conspiring to destroy our freedoms. Right? And one was my son's mission president and is and is now serving as a member of the presidency of the 70. And I know those 3 guys really well, and I can tell you, I can vouch
for all of them. They're wonderful people, and I think, oh my goodness. Even a member of the church is putting is sharing widely with other members of the church this, you know, like, it's not it's not that she just disagrees with them. She's going to make sure that everyone understands that they're evil, and this is the kind of thing that we just can't that is so inimical to the gospel of Christ. We have to do better. We have to check ourselves. We have to
fundamentally question our assumptions. And I think that that's what I'm And and a similar vein, so I'm I'm a product of Washington DC. I'm a product of the swamp. Right? I went to school with the sons and daughters of the deep state. And let me tell you about the people in the deep state, best people I've ever met. Well educated, patriotic, love their country,
serving their country. They could be making a lot more money elsewhere, but they wanna be working in government because they love the United States of America and what it stands for. Best people around deep state. Listen, I, you know I'm sorry. When did you start using that deep state term? It's a it's a I don't know. I don't know. It just sounds so sinister, you know. And so, yeah. No. There isn't a conspiracy that's running
the government of the United States. It's just not it's just not so it's a complicated entity, lots of interests, good people, bad people, any any mix. When when I was the counsel for the Senate, I got to know a 100 senators pretty well, you know, some much better than than others. And I would often get asked, so what's it like to be the counsel for the Senate? And my response was, you know, there's like any other group of a 100 people. There's some who are really smart. There are others
less so. There are some people who live saintly, holy lives, others less so. One thing in common is they all see the president of the United States when they look in the mirror in the morning, the future president of the United States when they look in the mirror in the morning. But other than that, they're just like, they're just like the rest of us. And, so, yeah. So I've the conspiracy theories have never held a purchase with me.
When they start talking about things that I've had some experience with and just doesn't work. That concludes our interview with Thomas Griffith. A big shout out to Bill Turnbull for being my co host or I should say I was his co host. Right? We were co hosts together. Really fascinating discussion with, Thomas Griffith. Hopefully this is, the first of many conversations we can have with him and it's fantastic legal mind
and and fantastic leadership mind. There's so much that he's done privately in his leadership experience that I'd love to dive into maybe another time, but I would love to get your feedback. What were your impressions of President Oaks talk? What how's it changed? What things are you trying? Are you trying a 5th Sunday lesson? Are you doing the sacrament talk? I mean, how are you unifying the word who may be silently disunified,
right? Because of different political views or they just sort of smirk at each other or or or growl each other through Facebook and it gets kinda heated there. How can we better approach this topic of politics without, poisoning the gospel discussion that we go to church to find? So, I'd love to hear from you. Go to leading saints.org/contact. If there's any other angles or topics, in this world, I'd love to hear it maybe enriching the content we hear at Leading Saints.
And don't forget, go to faithmatters.org and check out what they're doing. Subscribe to their podcast, and you will be blessed with, some of the content you hear there. And that concludes this throwback episode of the Leading Saints podcast. And remember, grab your copy of my new book, Is God Disappointed in Me? On Amazon or in select Costco stores.
It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the god of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.