- It is finally available. I've been working on a manuscript for the past four years, and it's finally a book I can hold in my hands. It's titled, is God Disappointed In Me Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace? This book has gotten so much attention that it is already a number one Amazon bestseller. I'm Beyond amazed in just a few words I wrote, is God Disappointed in Me for Latter Day Saints who often feel overwhelmed by the gospel and who are constantly worrying if they are doing enough.
It's for the Latter Day Saint who have stepped away from the church is for the individuals who appear to be living right but still can't find peace and happiness. And frankly, it's for everyone who enjoys listening to the Leading Saints podcast. You will love and cherish this book. Now, warning, you might want to consider purchasing multiple copies to share one Bishop who got an advance copy, read it in one weekend, and then literally purchased 100 additional copies. You can order it on Amazon.
The link is in the show notes, or starting in March, you can find it in your local Costco in Idaho, Utah, and Arizona. It's called Is God Disappointed In Me? And you can order it now. Hey, did you know that we video record the vast majority of our interviews on the Leading Saints podcast? That's right. And then we upload it to YouTube because we have a Leading Saints YouTube channel.
And you should subscribe, especially if you're the type of person that, uh, listens to the podcast while you do the dishes or work out. You can put up the video and get the more immersive experience by seeing my beautiful mug and also the face of the various guests that are on the Leading Saints podcast.
And, uh, it really helps us out to go to YouTube anyways, subscribe to the channel 'cause that helps us dial in the algorithm and reach more people and get these powerful interviews out to leaders across the world who could benefit. So go to YouTube, search for Leading Saints, find our Familiar Red logo and subscribe. So I had the opportunity to head on over to Grant Collins home and record an episode in his basement in his studio he has in his basement.
I'll Tell, I'll tell the story why and how we ended up there. I wanna give a shout out to Dave Olson, who, former guest of the Leading Saints podcast who lined this interview up with, uh, grant. When I first connected with Grant, this was sort of meant to be a How I lead episode where we'd explore his time as a counselor in the Bishop Rick of his YSA ward, serving as one of the first ysa in a, uh, Bishop Rick that way, and also his time as Eldor president.
But the moment I sat down with Grant, we discovered there was a whole different topic that we needed to talk about. And it really starts with his efforts in an organization and effort that he runs called Grassroot Giving. And so we explore this concept of how do we motivate people to give, to serve? And this is a question that so many leaders in the church are wrestling with. Now, I want you to pay special attention to the story he tells about this food drive that his war did.
And there are so many incredible principles embedded in the story and we talk about those, but that story alone is worth listening to. And there's some mic drop moments that Grant has. So listen up, this is awesome. Here we go with Grant Collins. Welcome to the Leading Savings podcast. Uh, we are in the bunker today. We we're hiding on with Grant Collins. How are you? - I'm wonderful, Kurt. - Us. Now this is you're stomping grounds here.
This is your podcast studio? Yeah. And my studio, the one I part typically use is under construction. So I was shocked when like over emailing back and forth and you're, and I'm explaining this to you, like, I dunno if we can do it in person, but Yeah, I got a studio like who just has a studio in their basement. But you do. - Yeah. Yeah. - Nice. So why do you have a studio? - No, we, uh, we do a lot of things of the basement down here, but really what we focus on is helping individual givers.
So it start off as basement philanthropy, so that, that makes it a little bit more, like, brings in the context a little bit. But we recently rebranded, but, but really at the beginning it was really meant for us to have a space that we could speak into our community, which involves a lot of people who are on the sidelines of giving, helping them get involved into the giving space. And there's really no better way to do that than in somewhere that is accessible, like an unfinished basement.
And so that's really like the, the tone that we wanted to set for the messaging that we were putting out into the community is like, Hey, we can do this out of our basement. Like you can likely get involved on your end of the equation. And so that's kind of how the basement studio became, what it's, - So you have a podcast giving is a skill? Yes. And that is a podcast under what umbrella? Yeah. - So it is under the community grassroots giving. Okay.
And specifically what, what giving is a skill is supposed to be involved with is those two big words, giving and skill. A lot of people don't feel like giving is a skill. A lot of people think that it's like this natural experience and everybody just inherently has it. But if you get involved with giving in any way, shape or form, you'll know that it takes a lot of work. It's really hard. And if you don't treat it as a skill, it can cause a lot of mess in the world.
And so really what we want to be around and be about is just helping individuals start to see that they matter, that they can make a difference, that the big hairy challenges like hunger and poverty and these types of things, individuals can use their time, talents, and money to make a difference. And if we all did that, a big, big difference could happen in the world. And so we just wanna tap into that resource and make it a little bit more - Accessible.
You know, you say time, talents, and money, that sounds very familiar to a covenant that we've made in the temple. Exactly. And this is, I'm, I'm actually doing some writing on this, this in, in the newsletter we sent out. 'cause this is a really interesting dynamic. You think of our theology, the temple, which is the pinnacle Yeah. Of our theology. Right. And it's amazing. Yeah. It's beautiful. Like it no other church, in my opinion, can stand up to that theology.
Mm. And we sit there and we go, you know, we go through the routine and, and you know, the, the rote you know, the presentation, everything. Yeah. But I don't think we really know what to do with that. Like, we make the covenant, we're like time talent. Sure. But does that mean I just like show up on Sunday and help stack chairs. But to really step back, like, this is where I want to take the leading Saints audience to really step back and say like, no, like, what does that look like?
That doesn't mean you wait around until you're call does elders go president or release site, but today Yeah. Like how do you give that to the kingdom of God? And uh, and so this is really cool that that's sort of the effort you're doing. - Yeah. And when I think about Jesus, like we just talk about Jesus for a little bit. Yeah. He, throughout his ministry, his main ministry, what's recorded in the New Testament is him getting outside of his normal community.
Mm-Hmm. and helping people that are disadvantaged. Yeah. That's, that's all his ministry really was. All the stories that we have, the woman at the, well, the woman with the issue of blood, the people that had leprosy, the blind men, like these are people that are outside of their community. Yeah. He's stepping outside of his comfort zone. I don't know if that is an accurate statement, but outside of people's comfort zone, and he's making a difference Yeah.
In their lives. Yeah. - Even telling the story of the Good Samaritan, I mean, he's saying get out of your silos. Like we gotta help the larger community, the larger world. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. So now this is because another impression that people have with like, oh, I want to, you know, philanthropy Yeah. Is, and we're in, we're sitting in Lehigh, Utah. Yep. And obviously this is like a hotbed for startups. Yep.
You know, Silicon Slope. So the idea is like, listen, I'm gonna go like build my company. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna sell it and I'll have a bazillion dollars , and then Yep. I'll just be writing checks. Right. Totally. Like, let Ryan, and hey, let me, those people should call me. I I'd love to take your phone call , but that isn't everybody's, I mean, that's such a small percentage of the greater, you know, the greater experience of Latter Saints.
Yeah. So that shouldn't we shouldn't wait round until we sell our, our uh, totally. - We often say that people wait until they are either rich or retired to get involved with giving. Mm-Hmm. . And actually my story in getting involved with giving has a lot to do with that mentality. When I was younger, I had this desire to get involved with philanthropy and I, I don't really know where it comes from. It, I always tell people it's like a seed that was just gifted to me at birth.
Mm-Hmm. . And I had to, you know, work the soil and put the water in place and those types of things. But I just had this focus that was like, I want my life to, to have something around it when it comes to giving and philanthropy. So that was my mentality. So I went into college saying, okay, here's the simple giving equation. I needed to go to school or start a business or whatever. Make a lot of money like what you were saying. Mm-Hmm. . And then when I'm rich or retired, then I'll give back.
And I had an experience when I was in college that shifted that paradigm and is why I'm involved with the work that I am today. And that was, I was in college and by no means was I the richest person out there, but I was better off than a lot of people, especially a couple of my roommates. And instead of having their family support, these roommates were actually supporting their families.
And so I was making a little bit more money at the time I was working full-time and I was on scholarship, so I just had a little bit of excess. And so I thought to myself like, Hmm, maybe I'll just like try this thing out. Like I have these people that I care about and I'll try and, and give them some money, like help them. Um, and it fell apart. It was a disaster. Hmm. Um, I almost lost both friendships.
And I realized in that moment that if I waited until I was rich or retired, that I wouldn't have the skill to actually do good with my money. Mm-Hmm. that I would have the resources, but not the skill. And those two, that mismatch creates a lot of challenge in the space. And so that's when I started to kind of go down this journey of like, okay, if giving is a skill, how does one develop it?
Mm-Hmm. And how somebody develop it is, is actually in the day to day, every living, uh, or everyday experience of their life, it's starting to live this lifestyle of giving and starting to get our outside ourselves a little bit at a time to be able to make a meaningful difference. And that compounds on each other are just like the stock market does. And you hear financial advices, Hey, you gotta get involved when you're really young so that you can take advantage of exponential gain.
The same thing happens with our giving, but if we don't start, then we're never gonna be able to have that exponential impact on the backend. And I think that the church gives us this beautiful opportunity to get involved and to have structure, but too often we see that as the end. And from my perspective, it's the training wheels like ministering or even church callings are the training grounds for us to get outside and into these big challenges that we have.
And there's no better place that I know of because I was raised in this community than in that community to do that. But it can't be the end all, be all the covenants, the, the church. Our interaction with Jesus has never meant to just be an internal focus. It's always meant to push out outside us, outside of our community. Yeah. - And there's so many directions to go here.
And, and we're talking mainly in the context of, I, I want to kind of lead our discussion in the context of the young single adult experience. Yeah. You're a young single adult. I am. Is that, uh, I, I How old are you right now? - So I just turned 29. Okay. - Yeah. You're on the edge. You're not so young anymore, but - You're still single. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a mid, mid single adult. I don't know, - I don't know if I'm on - The edge. I dunno if I'm there yet.
- But nonetheless though, there's, there's a lot of stigma in that, you know, misunderstood stigma that that's in that, that group. Totally. A lot of church leaders, you know, older church leaders are worried about that group. Yeah. Especially those with children in that group. Yep. And you know, we're, we're sitting in a basement, most people think like, uh, you're just sitting in the basement doing video games, , you know, like, and, and I think those are unfair generally.
I don't think most, I think most people are impressed with your demographic. Yeah. They see the potential. Totally. But, but they're also extremely worried. And so percent, I mean, I don't know where we, where the cross section is with, with this giving concept Mm-Hmm. or, but take us into that realm. Maybe just speak generally from that YSA experience in the context of everything you've said. Does that make sense?
- Yeah, for sure. I think that the challenge with the, the perception of ysa is that oftentimes we're not viewed as adults, young, single, and then adults is the third thing that comes through. And the challenge with that is that we often try and baby, or help people get involved in like a, a slow way so that it doesn't overwhelm them. And the challenge is, is that if we don't give people opportunities to serve, then they never grow.
Mm-Hmm. . And the really big thing that I, I would like to, you know, push out into the world is that if we help people or meet people where they are and then help them grow, that is where we have the opportunity to have this exponential gain, whether it's in church leadership, whether it's in giving, whether it's in business, whatever it might be. But if we meet people where, where they're at and then baby them or try and hold their hand, oftentimes it goes the other direction.
Mm-Hmm. , we actually don't get that gain. And so what, what I would just want to say is like, when you're helping people get involved, whether it's in a college ward or an after college ward, helping people and single adults see themselves as not lesser or as people that can contribute just like anybody else.
Mm-Hmm. and then seeing what happens because of that, I think that that's a beautiful place to start and it allows people to start to gain the skillset of giving, which is the skillset of being a disciple. Yeah. It's the skillset of being Christian. And, but it never happens unless we help people actually get - Involved. Yeah. So take me to the, like, what does that look like on a week to week level? Like you served in a, a bishoprick Yeah. In a YSA ward.
Yeah. And, and you were one of the first sort of when this transition was happening Yeah. You were one of the first called to be the young single adult who's actually in the bishoprick. It's a participating leader in that ward. And so, I mean, how can a leader facilitate that? 'cause I, there, I know there's leaders listening who, I mean, they get the superficial stuff. Like they're more than impressed by the YYSA generation. Yep. They've done a good job.
Stop calling them kids and things like that. , you know, they, they sort of made it through those initial things, but really like the, on the, on the ground floor of like what this looks like. I mean, what, what advice would you give? - Absolutely. So I actually would start out before service is extended. Mm-Hmm. . So if we're talking about in the realm of, uh, we'll maybe talk about in the realm of callings and then just in general. Okay. But maybe we'll start out in the realm of callings.
My experience is that it starts before a calling is extended. And what I mean by that is, let's say that you have somebody that's being called as a Sunday school teacher, really outlining what that looks like as far as the responsibilities, the time that's likely going to be needed, what that looks like, kind of that description of what that calling looks like. And the church has done an incredible job of outlining that for almost every role that you can have. Yeah. And it's
- Getting better. They're doing more and more. - Yeah. It's, it's getting even better and really understanding what that is before you call somebody in and then talking to them about, Hey, this is what it looks like to be a Sunday school teacher. Does that work for you? Hmm. And really creating an agreement that's like, yeah, I see myself being able to spend two or three hours a week studying for this or ministering or whatever that might look like.
And then holding people accountable to what they've agreed to in those callings is really, I think, where the mess starts to happen. We often say, oh man, why say they're so busy? Mm-Hmm. , they've got so much going on in their lives. Like they don't have time for this. That's like the craziest thing ever. Like anybody that has a family knows that as soon as you have a family, like your time drops significantly.
Yeah. And yeah, maybe people don't know exactly how to manage their time, but that's where that infrastructure starts to come in. That support starts to come in. And so let's say that you have an experience as a bishop member and you just realize that that person probably wasn't prepared. Mm-Hmm. pulling 'em aside, just asking them, how's it going? Does it look like what we talked about? And then holding people to that standard that we've agreed to allows them to say, you know what?
It wasn't really that great this week. Oh, how could we do that better? That's the training. That's where we get to kind of develop that skillset Yeah. In people. But too often we view volunteer service as this thing that gives a free pass, man, I'm just glad they showed up. Mm-Hmm. But that doesn't do anything for anybody. It actually reinforces this idea that church service or service or volunteerism in general doesn't actually mean very much Yeah.
That we have to have this legal contract in place and we have to be exchanging it for goods or money to be able to be our word. And that's, that's crazy to think of it like that.
But we set people up for that failure when we don't set good expectations upfront or agreements upfront, and then help people live into those and be willing to be in that middle ground when they're struggling or when they aren't showing up in that best way, and not from a place of judgment, but from a place of like, Hey, tell me what it's like over there for you. And then helping them work through that messy middle Yeah.
To get to a place of contributing and being able to see themselves as something that matters. - So the first, uh, misconception you'd say is generally speaking, I mean, single adults that maybe there's this misconception that they're super busy. Yeah. Right. And, and true. I'm sure there's outliers, you know, so-and-so's in a, you know, intensive MBA program. Sure. But that's two years or, you know, or Yeah. Whatever.
But so how did you feel that, like, you know, why SA setting, how do you feel that like people, why are people interpreting I'm busy or I mean, do you feel like they were stepping into too soon? Or, or what Yeah. How would you - Articulate? I would really say that it comes down to this experience of when ysa are introduced, Uhhuh . So they are introduced mostly into wards in college.
And in college. What happens is that people go from being in a family structure, usually into this newness of life where they have to do their own schedule. They have to make their own food, they have to do their own laundry. You know, if, if they've served a mission there, there's a little bit of a training ground there. But even if they have, there's still this kind of newness to the situation. And I think that that gets transposed onto the next phase of life.
So in that moment we're saying, okay, yeah, these guys are a little bit overwhelmed, or it's really challenging. And we kind of just let them sit in that instead of creating infrastructure, instead of helping them along the way, we just are saying, Hey, like, yeah, you are busy. You're right. Like, and this is kind of outta control and you are right. Church callings aren't that important. It's kind of the bottom on your list. And so we kind of set that infrastructure up.
And so when someone has graduated or they have a little bit more handle, that's still how they're being treated. They're being treated like, yeah. They don't know how to handle this, so they don't know how to do this. Gotcha. So that reinforces the culture. It reinforces how people show up when if we switch that at the beginning and say, yeah, it makes sense that you're overwhelmed. Like, how do we get out of that?
But how do we put some tools in place that helps you be a little bit more, more organized? So you could spend an hour a week preparing for a Sunday school lesson like that. I think that's what we miss. We miss those opportunities to help lift and train because we're too afraid to step on people's toes when that's what people are begging for. Hmm. Like if you're a college student that's struggling with time management, like you don't, you need someone to show up with you in that space.
You don't need people to take away that space from you. Yeah. In a lot of sense. - Yeah. That's really insightful. So I'm hearing like there's this, there's definitely a dynamic happening and maybe A-A-Y-S-A like college Yeah. Ward, right? Like Totally. Yeah. Maybe they are a little more busy. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, they're, they're juggling a lot. And then, but there's a shift to there's or there's some in the ward who are not, who have graduated.
Yeah. They're in their career. Yeah. And that's a different dynamic. And so sometimes that the old dynamic, the college dynamic gets projected onto the, the career dynamic. Totally. - A hundred percent. And I, I love that the church has transitioned a lot of the leadership to young single adults, because I think that that in some ways reframes Mm-Hmm.
some of those things because it used to be like all the adults in the room were, you know, 40 plus individuals and they were making all the decisions. And so we were kind of treating YSA like they were at EFY again. But now we're starting to get this opportunity to have people start to have this experience of, oh my gosh, if the world's gonna run, I've gotta do my stuff and I've gotta get my schedule together.
And the challenge that I see, Kurt, is that in a world that continues to grow from an automation standpoint, we have more and more time than we ever have in our entire world. I mean, I work from home, I work remote that is like the equivalent of almost 40 days every year as far as a two hour commute. If I were to put that in, it's like 40 sick days that I have that my father didn't have. Yeah. What am I doing with that time?
Well, the challenge that I see is that a lot of what's happening is that that time's being sucked up by Netflix or Instagram or these types of things that don't really matter. And so we still have this perception that we're so busy, and yet we've had more time than we've ever had in the world.
And if we could shift some of that time into serving in a church calling or volunteering in our community, not only would we be able to learn and become better leaders, we'd also start to feel more connected to the world. Um, the surgeon General just released a report in summer of 2023. One out of every two Americans are lonely. Mm-Hmm. . And the equivalent, the health impacts of that loneliness, the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Wow. Because of that loneliness. I believe - It.
- Yeah. And like, that's why it's happening. It's because this, we have all this extra time and it's being sucked up by the things that focus us in on ourselves. And if we redistribute some of that time back into our communities, whether that's the church or organizations that need our help, it's this beautiful reciprocal solution that can solve two problems at the same time. We can reconnect people while helping them get involved with making an impact in their community.
Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. - So take me to the, you mentioned the word infrastructure even in the college, in the college years, right? Yeah. So walk me through like, what would that look like? 'cause you're saying like someone's having a time management problem, they're just, at the end of the day, they're just spent. Yeah. I mean, it's impacting their mental health, but hey, I gotta just get through accounting this semester.
You know, like totally. That, that's where they're at and they usually, they get through it and they're fine. Right? Yeah. So walk me through like, what is that providing or helping them develop infrastructure in that, from that ward setting? Yeah. - I think it comes back to setting those clear agreements around what it looks like to be in the calling. Because that's often what happens. We have this like mixture or blender of everybody's time.
And for a new college student or for a new person that's in a YSA ward, the church is getting thrown into that mixture or that blend and what can happen when we say like, Hey, do you think you have an hour every other week to be able to prepare for a Sunday school lesson? They're like, I, I could probably do an hour.
That then lays the foundation and the infrastructure to say, man, if I'm able to do this, I wonder if I could do that with my accounting assignment or my accounting homework, or whatever that might be. I think clear agreements with clear follow up. Mm-Hmm. produces performance and outcomes. Yeah. - What do you do with the student or the individuals who's in a heavy career period who's just like, oh, Bishop I, I'm out the next six months.
Like, don't even like look at me and say, yeah, you're lucky I'm sitting in the pew. Like Yeah. How can you help them, invite them into the grassroots giving experience that the church offers? - Yeah. I would say from my perspective is we have to help people understand their own conversion and how important that is to those individuals. We can't force it. I think too often we kind of bludgeon people with this experience of like, you need to serve and you need to do all these things.
And it kind of shames people into that experience. Mm-Hmm. Instead of doing that, what I would suggest is helping be with people around what, like helps them become better in whatever phase of life they're in.
So if they're in a really heavy career, they're in a really big opportunity, it's likely that even if that's the case, that there's this space that needs to be created for someone to have a little bit of a break or to look outside of themselves a little bit and that, that would actually help or fulfill that. But it's not gonna happen unless someone can see that themselves. Mm-Hmm. . So presenting that idea to somebody, allowing them to be involved in that conversation.
And then, you know, if somebody says, you know, this isn't the right time for me. Instead of bludgeoning them with like, it is the right time, whatever. It's taking a step back and saying, what would the right time look like for you? Or, can we have a visit in two months and see if maybe that would be the right time for us to get involved And giving people this space to be able to be in their own lives.
People often know exactly what they need, but they sometimes just need some space to be able to discover that for themselves. Mm-Hmm. granting people that trust and that space, I believe from my experience, will allow people to see, you know what, I could do a little bit more here, but we have to have the follow up. If we just leave a minute, we're not gonna, we're not gonna be able to do that. So I think that's the crucial piece.
It's discovering what we have with somebody and then having a space to be able to fall with them. And then that, I think can create a really cool dynamic that we can start to build people off - Of. So a few principles come to the surface for me, if I'm understanding this right, that the, this typically the idea is like, you know, sister Jones is in a intense MBA program. Yeah. And so mentally we just like set her on a shelf and it's like, we're not even gonna mention her name in these meetings.
Yeah. 'cause she is busy and we wanna respect that and we'll shake her hand on Sunday, but then we sort of accidentally dismiss that individual Yeah. Rather than, okay, you know, I met with her, you know, on Sunday and this is what happened. I'm gonna follow up in two months. We, we set a time and I'm just gonna stay engaged there. Totally. Um, to continue to invite into this experience of service. Is that Yeah. What you're - Articulating.
Well, and I also think that we believe in a church of revelation. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And so if we are praying, we say, you know, we really feel like this individual is the right person for this fit. They come into the office, we interview them and they say, you know, I just don't know if I have time for that. I think that's an opportunity for us to say, you know, we can be around this with you. Like, let's take some time to be around this. Like, maybe it isn't the right time.
Maybe it was just that we needed to have the conversation so it could be on your mind for later. But just starting that, not making people off limits, starting that conversation, giving them the space to be able to make a decision on their end and then supporting them through with whatever that looks like. I think it's a really Yeah. Good winning formula. - Right. And it's just this, just staying engaged there.
And another principle is just like that one-to-one connection where you're totally, you've taken, or somebody in the leadership realm has taken the time to sit down with this person Yeah. And really understand like, wow, so tell me about this MBA program, or tell me about, you know, what it is like, like how late are you at school? Like, just really understanding that because people need these service moments, right? Yeah. Like they, it's part of our, our mental health to be engaged.
I'm giving to others, and again, they're seasons and things, but Totally. That that's sort of the, the principle or, or aim at and, and I'm just thinking even for like, what do we call 'em? Geographic awards? Yeah. Family awards. Mm-Hmm. , you know, I hear from leaders around the world who are, who tell me, like, and I experienced this as a leader myself. Like, people just straight up say no to callings. Yeah. Like, they don't have any space for it.
And, and even, you know, in the phase of life I'm in with young kids and you know, even though there's nothing on the calendar tonight or a few nights next week, it's like there's resistance of just like, I just wanna, I'm just finally home. Yeah. I wanna like, pretend like I'm engaging with my son on the floor as I'm scrolling, you know, social, you know, like Yeah, sure. It's just that initial push is, is difficult.
And so, I mean anything, 'cause I know people are listening thinking, no, grant, this is cute and all . But, uh, I literally have people who straight up tell me, no, not even gonna sit. And so it's, they won't even let me stay engaged in their, you know, and so it's sometimes difficult to create this culture of grassroots giving Yeah. When it just feels like the resistance is there. Yeah. Any, any thoughts come to mind?
- Well, I think that one of the principles that we can maybe steal from maybe the business realm is this concept like marketing. Like it often takes why do people pay for Super Bowl commercials or to be on the side of a bus or of these different areas. Like it's because over time somebody has an experience where they start to develop trust or loyalty towards something, or they see it as a problem that, or something that can solve a problem that they have.
And so if the first interaction is a no, like, I just think we need to just be there and present that to them and make sure that they know that it's an opening. And I think that the, maybe the most important piece of the equation is to help them see that it is their choice. We have to let people have their agency.
And as soon as we step into trying to take people's agency away, whether that's by shame or by saying that, you know, this is the right timeframe or whatever, kind of crosses that line. I think that actually is what turns people off more than anything else. It's taking away their ability to make a choice. And then once they've made a choice, it's just supporting them in that and saying, Hey, do you mind if I follow up with you Yeah.
In a couple months to see if there's a, a change because we really could use some help on our end. But we understand that like, you have your own life and we wanna support you in that and know that there's a community over here that could use some help. Yeah. - Ah, that's really helpful. 'cause I think the, the typical response that leaders give is they , you know, they're like, look at their ministering numbers.
They're like, ah, and the, the state president's breathing down their neck, you know? Yeah. Like, all right, Sunday, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get up there Sunday and, and the guilt trip will be a flying. Right. Like, I'm gonna give it to 'em. And they're sort of this totally like, you sort of beat him with it. And I'm like, are you ready to serve now? 'cause I mentioned you're gonna burn hell. You know, so it's like, okay. You know, and that's not a good path.
But again, it's just the, the staying engaged, keeping them top of mind. Yeah. Whomever they are. 'cause I'm just thinking like, you know, going back to this example of the, the sisters and the intense MBA program, you're just constantly thinking and then you come to her again and like, you know, we are thinking about this new opportunity that came up or this calling, and you just kept coming to mind. Like, and again, you're just offering it to 'em. Yeah.
You're not, and the, the other way the guilt trip comes is like, we were praying in the office and scroll from heaven to send it down and your name was on it. And so you cannot say no, 'cause this came from God. Totally. But again, you're just putting it out there. Okay. That won't work. Well, there's a canning assignment next week. Like anything. And again, you're not that you're overwhelming 'em with opportunities, but you're just keep coming back and saying Yeah.
And giving them choice and saying like, and not that they're evil for saying no, but they need more and more opportunities. - Well, and I think that often we confuse a participation challenge with a conversion challenge. I think too often, , - We, let's back up, why don't we say that one more time. All right. - Yeah. I, I think we confuse a participation challenge with a, with a conversion challenge.
And what I mean by that is, so often we focus on the doing of things that we never look at what would actually help somebody draw closer to Christ so that they can have this experience of saying, you know, I have faith that if I put myself out here and I accept this calling, I'm gonna have the time I need.
Mm-Hmm. . But the challenge is that we focus so much on participation, showing up, doing a calling, those types of things that we don't have this experience of somebody knowing who Jesus is in their life. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. somebody knowing like, man, this is what it feels like to be forgiven. This is what it feels like to have faith. This is what it feels like to put myself out there outside of my comfort zone because that's what I've been asked to do.
Mm-Hmm. . But my experience just personally is I grew up in a beautiful family, totally focused on the gospel and went and served a mission and was in college and did all these callings. And why I say stuff, I didn't have a testimony that I could really live into of Jesus until I was probably 26 and a half Mm-Hmm.
. And if I were to look back and say, I, I wish that something had been different, the only thing that I would say, and this isn't a judgment, this is more just like, oh, this is what I can see now with the perspective that I have, is I wish that I had just been able to focus more on my relationship with Jesus and understanding what that actually meant.
And then I could see, and I'm seeing now that there's such a well mm of enjoyment and desire to get involved because I have that conversion towards Jesus and towards a relationship with God. And that actually supersedes like participating. It's like participation sometimes equates to testimony, but I think too often we see that it is the only way when people just need to have this experience of what is it like to have a relationship with Jesus.
Mm-Hmm. , what is it like to have a relationship with God? And my experience in that was, it just took me starting to ask the question on my end, what would it look like for me to have a relationship? And then personal revelation came and I followed that and it's become a really beautiful thing in my life.
- Yeah. And going back to your, your main point there of this, sometimes we look at others' lives and we think, well, they're not doing something in the ward or they're not engaged, or I'm not sure, you know, maybe they're too busy with school that we misinterpret that, that, that therefore they're not converted. Right? Yeah. Because we all know to do BA school, at least I would, I would need a lot of Jesus Yeah.
To make it through some of these daunting tasks that ysa are in the middle of these, these seasons of, of life, whether career or school or whatever it be. And so focusing on that relationship and then again, offering these service opportunities in an effort to help stimulate that relationship, not just to get things done in the ward.
- Yeah. One, one suggestion that I might have for leaders that are in this position, that they have someone that says like, no to a calling or whatever it might be, I would suggest just being in a conversation with them around what's their relationship look like with God? Mm-Hmm. , what does the relationship look like with Jesus?
And then having a conversation about like, okay, yeah, it's okay that you can't have a formal calling, but let's just make sure that you are in some way shape or form connecting with God mm-Hmm. in this time of, of craziness. And use that as the opportunity to minister or to help in that conversion process and that conversation be the beginning of that conversation. But the participation from my perspective, can't be the end all be all. It has to be the conversion back to Jesus. Mm-Hmm.
- . Love it. So another dynamic that that comes up that I'm thinking of is we often make the invitation of service through a particular calling. And I love this, this idea of setting clear expectations and, and really doing that before the call say, rather than having these hidden expectations and they were sort of like disappointed and this passive aggressive of like, oh, well maybe we can find something - Else for you that never happens. Kurt, I don't know what you're talking about.
That never happened. , - I've been in this world long enough. Um, and this is, this issue's magnified in YSA awards where there's just not enough callings to go around. So I've got all my Sunday school teachers, my ward council's packed with, I mean these are superstars and you know, everything is the Hyn book. We got 30 hyn book passer outers. Like I don't. And so how, how can you invite people in this grassroots service opportunities when, like making up callings at this point?
- Yeah. Well I think that that is, if we're making up callings, I think it's already gotten too far. Mm-Hmm. What I mean by that is since when has the reason that the church function is established only for one day a week? Yeah. Like when did our callings just revolve around Sunday from 10 to 1215 or whenever churches, my perspective is we need to start seeing our wards as this vehicle to make an impact in our communities.
I don't know why we often only view our impact in a demographic ward, geographical location. It's like, okay, if there's anything that's outside of this, like that's a no go zone. Like no, the wards are this perfect place for us to start to organize, to have relationships, to be able to make an impact outside of what is going on in church on Sunday. Hmm. So lemme give you an example. Yeah, tell me more.
So when I was serving in the Bishop Rick, there were a couple sisters in our stake who just had this experience that they were feeling disconnected, COVID had just happened. And we were kind of all coming out of that. And they were just realizing that we're having a lot of interactions but we're not really connecting. And they had noticed that if there was some sort of form of giving or service, that that seemed to be a little bit more connective for them.
And so they approached the stake and said, Hey, I wonder if there's something that we can do here. And because of the work that I do outside of church and outside of my work around kinda the grassroots giving space, I was invited to help this community or this committee start to think about how could we use our stake to get outside of ourselves. So we started to brainstorm and decided that what we were going to do is we were going to identify individuals who wanted to be involved with giving.
They had this feeling that they weren't, you know, participating enough or they wanted to do more, whatever it was. And so we went around to every single elders Corman release Society in the stake and just asked a simple question. We just said, Hey, does anybody wanna get involved with volunteering or helping outside in the community making a difference? And we had no idea what was gonna happen. We had over 500 people sign up saying, yeah, let's do something there.
And so we decided like, okay, we've got these firemen people and we can use them like we normally do. And we decided to do a food drive so we could use them like we normally would and be like, okay, let's do an activity. And everybody brings two cans. And so, but it's like, that's not that impactful. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And so instead what we decided to do is let's use this group that we have to start to access our community.
So if we're kind of keeping track of people, we had a couple people at first that got involved and started to see themselves as making a difference. Then those, you know, three or four people expanded now into 500 people. And so that group, we then started to use that group and instead of using it just as what we were talking about as far as like, let's do an activity, let's get every everybody together, we decided we're going to leverage that group to access the broader community.
And so what we decided to do is let's do a food drive, but instead of having the individuals bring the food, let's have them pass out invitations for the community to get involved. So we went from, you know, four people to 500 people being interested. There was probably 150 people that actually like showed up on, on the evening. And we ended up being able to pass out 6,000 bags to the community. And from that number, we then had an activity. So the activities basically went like this.
We did the bags and the flyers one evening and then we passed them out and then we, you know, went and collected them. When we got to the day of the food collection, we just had like no idea what it was gonna look like. Right. We had done all this work, we had people show up and we had decided that we were going to bring the food to my house. We just, it was cold. We wanna make sure it didn't freeze. All those types of things. And the people went out and they started getting the food.
And we were just waiting here. There was about four of us. And we had, you know, a car come in and we were like, okay, like I guess this is, this is fine. And we decided we were gonna do this, like this assembly line to be able to get the bags down into the basement essentially is when we, you know, we thought this is a great place to, it end up not being a great place to it, but live and learn.
That's what we decided to do. We started to pass bags and after 45 minutes of bags consistently coming down, we were like, wait, what is going on up at the top? We had car after car after car after car for two and a half hours bags coming down here. This basement was like, it - Was this basement - Filled in. This basement was like filled halfway full of food. Um, and we ended up donating instead of just like, you know, 500 cans, we ended up donating 6,000 pounds of food to a local food pantry.
Wow. And everybody that in got involved with that activity, they gave us this feedback around this is the most connected or the most like involved that I've felt in a long time. Yeah. And so if we use this natural organization of the church to be able to start saying, what can we do with this group of people that can make a broader difference in the community, in people that we care about? That's when I think the church service actually starts to make a broader difference.
It's gonna make it, you know, Sunday school makes a difference, it makes a difference for people. But again, I think that's the training grounds for us to get outside of that experience and in the community. And there's so many organizations, there's so many causes that need our help, but for some reason we just like in our own little circles and we're not gonna get outside of them.
And so if you find yourself making up callings, like that's why I say, I think you've already gone too far in the sense of saying like, no, let's think of church service as like, we got a community, we got this group of people, let's start to use our combined desire to be like Jesus, to get outside in the world. - Yeah. And I bet at the end of that, everybody's saying, let's do this again. Right. Next year or in six months or whatever. Right. Totally. Totally. Because it's so connecting.
It's, uh, it feels like it's making a difference, you know? 'cause it is. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm sure the food bank was very pleased to take that money. It was that, - That food, it was incredible. It was, it was the biggest donation they'd received that season. It was amazing. - That's awesome. Okay, so a few principles are highlighted here for me is that this concept of, well, I dunno which, which word, but I think that, you know, the, the problem, a problem was identified.
Yeah. That, and I think a lot of people, if if you're hitting a wall thing, you know, the food pantry, we did that, you know, two months ago. Like now what, like, you may not be understanding the problems in your community enough. So that's like step one, right? You have to understand totally what's the need here. Totally. Because if we just keep showing up with food every day, at some point the food bank's like, listen, our warehouse is full.
We don't have room. Right? Yeah. And so maybe figure out what, what the problem is. And then the, I love this dynamic of self authorization of these, this group of people were like, let's do something. You know? Yeah. And, and then they approached the stake. It didn't literally grassroots, right? Yeah. Right. Like it came from the bottom. And then the, the question of who, who wants to participate in this?
I think one of the biggest missed opportunity any ward is that we never take the time to just ask generally or individually. Like, you know, like, grant, what do you want to do in the ward? Yeah. You know, like if, if someone asks me that, I'm like, I love to teach. Yeah. And I can't that there's, there's not a, a place for me to teach or, or whatever. But that's what I wanna do. Yeah. And if, if that bishop can find a way for me to do something that I'm really excited about, yeah.
Maybe I have a skillset. Like I'm really stimulated by that. Like totally. I I'm in this community. Right. But often we don't take the time to just say, what do you want? Yeah. You know, what, what do you want to do? And even if that means that, in my opinion, if I had eight people come to me in the war and say, I just love to teach Sunday school. Well, we're gonna have eight Sunday school classes. Right. - , - And we're gonna make that work.
Or something like that. Yeah. Like to really push to, to make that work. But I love this dynamic of looking more broadly in the community. Not, and we are, you know, it's often said President Nelson is the prophet of not the church of the world. Yeah. Well, you know, you're the ward, you're the bishoprick of that community. Totally. So go serve it, you know, go exercise your keys there. So what, what else comes to mind? - Well, and I feel like I love what you're saying there, Kurt.
And I also would suggest, like if we're finding that we have excess, whatever it is, there is something in the community that needs that help. Yeah. So I like the teacher example. I mean, do you know how many organizations teach and need help? Like big brothers and big sisters? Yeah. Or those types of things.
What if instead of we like utilizing these community members in our ward that already has access, what if we look to make connections with groups outside of ourselves and say, Hey, what if you went and taught in this capacity instead of here? So I'm not saying that we make formal callings for people to go out and to Right. Volunteer, but what I'm saying is we have excess, I don't care what ward you're in, in the Utah or Idaho or those types of areas.
That's what we're talking about. There's other wards in other areas that may not have as much Yeah. - They got four or five callings just to keep the word going. Right. Totally. - Totally. But in the areas that have excess, instead of saying, man, thank goodness we have excess. Let's just like be involved with that and redistribute some of that access into causes and communities that actually matter. And what we're gonna find is that our ward are going to be more unified.
Mm-Hmm. people are going to feel more tight knit. They're gonna feel more faithful because they're actually doing what Jesus did. Yeah. Like that is the, the thing that in some ways I'm like kind of beside myself and we talk about like, how, how do I help my ward be more converted? How do I help people? It's like, it's right there.
Uhhuh, . Like Jesus has said like Matthew 25, he's saying like, you know, like when saw we the naked or, or you know, in prison or all these, like, he gives us all these things that we could be involved with. Mm-Hmm. . And yet when we look at it, we're like, let's do another program. Let's have another fifth Sunday lesson. It's like, no, let's not do those things that didn't work last time. They're probably not gonna work this time.
Let's instead just start giving our people opportunities to be like Jesus, that's gonna help with the conversion. - Yeah. Oh, the fifth Sunday lesson. And I love the fifth Sunday lesson, but oftentimes, especially someone who's been in Bishop before, you'd think, alright, there, I've got a problem and a fifth Sunday's coming up, I'm gonna solve that problem. . Right, right. And it doesn't, it doesn't do. Yeah. You know, and that's so, that's so helpful. Just, um, what was I gonna say?
The, um, yeah, I mean I I, oh the, I'm sure after that food drive, I mean people, there was probably a handful of people who was like, I don't really want to go, but I'll go. And Yeah. And by the end they're, they're on fire. And then when they walk into elders quo on Sunday, it's a different culture. A di different totally different experience atmosphere because you're, you're stimulating the, the greater community.
- Yeah. Totally. One, one other thing that I would add here, Kurt, for especially leaders, is that it does take a leader to start to be a vanguard for these experiences to happen. A leader or somebody in in the ward needs to be involved or tapped into the community to know what these needs are. But guess what, like, we live in a, an era that has this thing called Google.
And if we can just type in like hunger in my community or opportunities to mentor in Lehigh, Utah, like, you're gonna have so many lists pop up and you can make a phone call and say, Hey, we've got a youth group that could, you know, how could we help out? Or what would it look like instead of just looking at a project, what would it look like for our ward to support what you're doing for the next six months? Yeah. Like, could we create something like that?
And there's likely things that you have to follow within the church handbook and all those types of things. So leaders will know some of those guidelines that they need to follow there. Yeah. But I think too often, like we just don't even think that that's an option, which is, in my perspective, like that is the option. That is why we're here, that's why we're in Sunday school learning. It's so we can get outside in the community and actually start to be with these people. Yeah.
- Now I'm gonna get a phone call from the church if we don't plug, just serve. Yeah. Right. That, that phenomenal resource out there. And, and I love this dichotomy of like, a lot of times larger wards or you know, YSA awards or Utah, you know, jello belt wards, they feel like they have too many people or they don't have enough callings for people. But we can flip that and say, what if you went out and find, got overwhelmed by the problems in your community? And here's the, the nuance.
I think that it's, you know, maybe they find, oh, the food being needs more help. Let's call a committee and call a bunch of people to serve there. It's not about calling people and saying, this is your assignment saying, and your example's. Perfect. Who wants to be, here's this problem. Who wants to fix it? Yeah. And people will be like, I'm in, like, I can, I can contribute. And so, forget the way I phrase it.
But oftentimes the, i I phrase it that the, the leader's role isn't necessarily to solve the problems and bring the solution to the community. The leader's role is to find the problem and bring it to the community and invite everybody to solve it. - Totally. Right? Totally. And we often, when it comes to this type of thing, sometimes we get in this trap of saying like, it's gonna be this big hurrah. We're gonna do this big project and then we're gonna be done with it.
No, I think we need to start looking at it from a sustainability standpoint. Yeah. If we're gonna be involved with a food bank, what would it look like for us to not do one food drive? But what would it look like for us to catalyze four or five food drives during the year so that they could reach what they needed to Mm-Hmm. And working with them to say like, is this even what you need? You need more food? Mm-Hmm. .
Or do you need people to sort the food Or like, being with those people, having people that actually understand what the need is, and then approaching it from a place of how can we not only be involved with this from a project standpoint, but a more sustainable standpoint of saying, is it an opportunity for us to do a food drive, you know, every other month for the next six months? Or Yeah. Whatever it looks like. That's when conversion happens.
Because conversion isn't a one-time experience. Mm-Hmm. conversion happens over a time period. And so if we don't give people the opportunity to get involved in service from a long-term standpoint, we're missing the opportunity to help them be converted. Yeah. - And even the busy people need it. They need those opportunities. So keep just overwhelm 'em with those opportunities, . And they'll, they'll find a place or be nudged into to step into that.
So, yeah. You know, grant, I haven't even looked at your outline here. What do we, did we cover anything that you proposed? We, we talk about? 'cause you've been a YSA bishop, remember? Elder Scorp president. Yeah. You said one thing that maybe everyone explore it. You said like sometimes they treat, uh, YSA wards like EFY Mm-Hmm. . And, and I've heard this, that a lot of people, you know, the older generations gets called as the bishop and their wife comes Mm-Hmm.
. And they only have this experience of serving with the youth and they can't help but sort of bring that with them Totally. And treat it the same way. Just like, you know, just on a different scale now. So unpack that EFY comment. What, what do you mean by that? - Yeah. Yeah. I, I would say that we often don't, we're often afraid that people will either mess up or like not have a good experience or whatever it might be. So we feel like we have to like hand cater.
What I mean by the EFY comment is that EFY is a structured hand catered experience. Yeah. That's awesome. For 14 to 18 year olds. And it's perfect the way that is or, or FSYI guess now. Oh yeah. Yes, that's right. Um, uh, and those different program, and it's a perfect experience for those types of people because they're just getting star in their lives. They, they need structure, they need infrastructure. But from a YSA standpoint, we're talking about adults here.
Mm-Hmm. , these people can rent cars, they can do whatever they want in a lot of terms. Mm-Hmm. . But sometimes we take that decision making away from them. And my perspective is when we help Ysa get involved and be able to make decisions, real decisions, not just like the, what you're gonna have for your munch and mingle. Mm-Hmm. , no. Like there are really big challenges happening in our ward with these certain things. How are we going to be involved with them?
And then giving them the space to be able to solve those problems and not jumping in and saying, no, well, that, that's probably not gonna work because X, Y, and Z. No. Giving them the parameters, making the agreements that we talked about earlier in this podcast around here's kind of what we're looking for here. And then letting people go and go and solve that. And then having the infrastructure, the support to be able to lean on if they need it.
I think that's the change in dynamic that we need. And FSY experience is a hand catered structured experience for people to be plugged into. Christian adult experience is something that somebody has to come into and bring themselves to and create that experience for themselves. And I think too often we get those two things kind of mixed up. And that's why it's a beautiful thing that more why ssas are getting involved in leadership experiences within their wards.
Because then they are actually the ones that are doing it. But the challenges, and this is what I, I I've seen is I've been involved in this space, is that sometimes as we bring Ys a into those positions and we don't have those clear agreements, then we actually have YSA bishops that are way overwhelmed. 'cause not only do they, you know, are they there in the YSA, but now they have YSA people that are involved.
And if the infrastructure isn't created, well, they just went from a three strong people to one person. And that can be an overwhelming experience itself. I didn't necessarily see that in the Bishop Bricks that I was involved in. But I have seen it in the transition that has happened that we've kind of cut Bishop support without having a good infrastructure that has either built leaders or has created a system to know what does it look like to be a Bishoprick member?
Mm-Hmm. . Like what does that actually look like for a YA to step into that? And so there's this potential that bishops can then be way overwhelmed if we aren't clear about those agreements upfront. And if someone isn't pulling their weight in some respects, being with that individual and making a change if that's needed. Yeah. - Yeah. That's really, and I think your, your food drive example's a great, where it wasn't so much of, okay, you wanna do food drive, well here's some ideas.
And it's more of like, they came, you know, what do you wanna do? Yeah. You wanna do a food drive? What would that look like? Yeah. Right. And you're just there if they need a budget, you know, you can look at the numbers and Yeah, we have this much, or, you know. Yeah. - Yeah. A hundred percent. - Anything else principle, story concept that we didn't cover that you wanna make sure we mention while you're on the platform? , - Give me an open mic. That's - Right.
This a little dangerous. Bring the soapbox out. So is - A little, this is a little dangerous. . Let's see. I feel like maybe the, the place that I would want to end off as I've thought through things on my side is that individuals and leaders starting to see their word as mattering or being what people can count on that can make a tremendous difference in people's experience. We've talked a little bit about it throughout time, but we're starting to read the book of Mormon in, come Follow Me.
Mm-Hmm . And in the very beginning of the Book of Mormon, in first Nephi chapter four, there's this beautiful exchange that happens that I think sometimes is missed because there's a lot that happens in that first part of the Book of Mormon. And the exchange happens between Nephi and Zora. And for those of you who are kind of just new to this story, essentially what has happened is that Nephi in his family and fled into the wilderness, they've come back to get the plates.
Zora, who's a servant of Laben, has just been kind of deemed homeless in some respects because he was kind of involved in this experience where they got the plates and Laben was killed because of that. So Zora's kind of in this really precarious situation, and what happens is this exchange between Nephi and Zoro and the end of first Nephi chapter four, and after what we can only imagine as Nephi tackling Zoro.
That's right. , there's, there's words used in there, like on Nephi being very strong and way bigger than Zoro. That's right. I was raped . I was able to, you know, pummel him to the ground for a second.
But there's an exchange that happens that says, in some respects that Nephi gave Zora his word, that if he would come into the wilderness with his family, that he would not be harmed and that he would be able to live this life of traveling through the wilderness and, and being able to become a disciple of Jesus. That's essentially Nephi's invitation. And he gives, he makes an oath.
He's, that's the wording that's used is he makes an oath and in a couple verses later it says something to the extent of Zora that his fear of nephi, of the experience, that he lost that fear because of the oath that was made. Imagine what the world would look like if our word actually showed up in the same way that these two people who were enemies, there was an oath that was created and that person trusted that so much that they were willing to waltz into the wilderness with this person.
So often in our dayday lives, and I'm speaking to myself in this experience, this isn't me jumping on a soapbox because I'm still in this myself, but too often we don't view our word or what we've agreed to as meaning very much. Especially in the volunteer space. Especially when it comes to being in our wards or being involved with communities or being involved with in causes.
And if we started to view our word as what actually matters, I just feel like we would be able to create a world that could not only start to count on each other again, but a world that we could actually create a meaningful difference in the lives of people because they could start to count on us. And what better way to be remembered then, man, I could count on that person. Yeah.
- Love it. If people wanna learn more about grassroots giving and your organization, your podcast, where, where would you send them? - Yeah, just go to any podcast feed that you have and uh, type in giving is a skill You can find the podcast, the weekly podcast that comes out every Tuesday where we specifically talk about how individuals can start to develop this skill set of giving that we've talked about within a church sector.
But it can be involved in whatever experience or community these people are, are involved with. You can also follow us on social media, grassroots giving, both on LinkedIn and, and Instagram and Facebook. - Cool. And, and I love the, uh, giving as a skills dynamic. One thing I, you know, I get a lot of emails about the motivation, you know, in, in the context of church leadership. Like my, I can't get my people to do things right. Yeah.
And I always say never interpret an ability problem for a motivation problem. Yeah. A lot of times they just don't have the skills. They don't know how to give. They don't know how to wake up and make that phone call and check in on that person or whatnot. So I love the, the focus on the skillset because we don't see it as a skillset. We just think if people were more motivated, they'd give Yeah.
It really is a skillset. Well, - And why would they, like what have we done in our community to really foster and zero in on like development of this skill? Like we just haven't done that very often. And so it isn't something that people can really like access really, really easily. And so it just starts with us starting to realize like, yeah, this is a skill and how am I gonna develop any type of skill that I have, whether it's golf or football or accounting or whatever it is.
You start out at the very bottom, you get a little bit involved and over time and over a lifetime, we have this opportunity to really have exponential impact. And that's what I'm really interested in. - Love it. Alright, grant, last question I have for you. As you reflect on your time in, in the Bishop Rick Elders Corn President or being a leader in various ways in your life, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
- Yeah. My experience is that as I look around for people to emulate when it comes to leadership, I find a lot of different examples. There's people in, in my community, there's people at my work. One of those individuals was on your podcast. Yeah. Dave Olson. Yeah. A huge - Influence. We'll link to that episode. - He's awesome. Huge in, in influence in, in my life and also in my, my church community and, and and others. But the biggest example that I see of leadership is that of Jesus.
And I often attempt to ask myself a question that's a little bit different than the classic, what would Jesus do? Sometimes I feel like that might be a little bit overwhelming or might be kind of too high level for me. I actually sometimes flip that question to just start off with where would Jesus be? And if I can show up to where Jesus would be, then I'll probably be able to understand what Jesus would do.
And it's through those little experiences of leadership, micro leadership or getting involved or putting myself out there that I have started to be able to understand what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus Christ. And to be able to emulate his leadership, which was mostly one-on-one. And mostly focused on the individual's experience of themselves and of the world around them.
And so as I reflect on leadership in the context of church, or really just my life, I really just love to ask that question, where would Jesus be? And then what would Jesus do in this scenario? And look for those examples in my community around me or in the scriptures, and then attempt to try and start being that person. And I found that over time that that has resulted in my conversion and my leadership being able to continue to grow. And I'm just starting out in that area.
I am so grateful that I have so much more left in my life to be able to continue to build that skillset. - Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good? You know, I tend to pinch myself that this is what I get to do. I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impactful conversation.
I hope you'll share it, drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode. I mean, you're not done with the dishes or mowing the lawn or working out. So you might as well keep it going at the bottom of those show notes.
And, uh, make sure you listen to each one, maybe a couple times on a few of them. And remember, grab your copy of my new book, is God Disappointed In Me on Amazon or in select Costco stores? - It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the Declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.