- - Have you ever heard of Scrupulosity? This is a mental health concern that is impacting more latter day Saints than you think. Scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder where individuals are hyper obsessed about their worthiness and repentance. Sam Baxter, a former bishop, sat down with me to talk about his lifelong struggle with Scrupulosity and how he got treatment.
You can watch this interview for free in the Mentally Healthy Saints Library by going to leading saints.org/fourteen. This gets you 14 days free access to Sam Baxter's interview about Scrupulosity and 25 plus other interviews about ministering to those who struggle with mental health. The content is priceless for leaders. So visit leading saints.org/fourteen for free access.
So my name is Kurt Frankham, and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints, and obviously the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now, I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog, and it grew from there. By the time, uh, 2014 came around, we started the podcast, and that's really when it got some, uh, traction and took off. Uh, 2016, we became a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since.
And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now, this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling. And we simply ask them, how is it that you lead?
And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good. And, uh, we just talk about, uh, sharing what the other guy's doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, okay, I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so we publish these how I lead segments to share. All right. Today we're headed to New Zealand.
I love having some, uh, some diverse accents here on the Leading Saints Podcast. And today we're with Wilson Wu. How are you? - I'm good. Fine. Uh, great. How are you? - Very good. This is, this is great. Now, um, are you born and raised in New Zealand? - Yeah, I was born and raised in New Zealand. Uh, my parents actually immigrated, uh, back in the 1980s. Uh, and I've been here ever since. Yep. Nice. Never moved. - And, and where did they immigrate from?
- Um, so they immigrated from mainland China, um Oh, wow. From a city called Thun. Yep. - Nice. Did they raise you speaking Mandarin or anything, or? Yeah, - So that's a funny story. So I actually, um, grew up speaking Tese, um, and I didn't actually learn it that well, nice. But now I, um, I speak, uh, Cantonese because of my mission language, um, and I speak a little bit of Mandarin. - Nice. Where did you go on your mission?
- Uh, so I served in the China Hong Kong mission, and, uh, I was awesome. That's where I actually met my wife, actually, so. Oh, - Wow. Nice. That's that's fantastic. So, and, and you're a convert to the church. Maybe give us a brief summary of that story. Yeah, - Yep, sure. Yeah. So, um, I'm a convert to the church. Me and my brother. We are the only members in our family. Um, we were baptized when I was 13 and he was 11. Um, our family has no religious background at all.
Um, so we didn't actually get taught anything about gold or anything like that, um, in the home. Um, it all started when I was about probably seven years old when, um, we had, uh, a person from a local church actually come to our school and actually teach us about Jesus Christ. And, um, that's what they used to do in our public schools, but they don't do that anymore.
Wow. , I bet. And, um, ever since he was talking about Jesus Christ, I just, oh, no. I just believed in Jesus Christ and started to believe in God. And, um, and I think I was about 10 years old. I made the decision to actually go to church. Um, it wasn't our church, but it was just to go to church in general. And, um, I remember I had a friend who actually gave me a copy of Book of Morman. He wasn't a member of the church. His parents actually gave it to me.
And, uh, I started reading the book of Morman, like maybe like five pages of it. And I just remember reading the book of Mor just reading about Nephi killing Laben and how he made, um, is it c room to, to follow him. And, um, oh man, it was such a cool story, and I thought, oh man, this, this book is awesome. Um, but then, I dunno what happened to that copy of Bor, but it just happened that, you know, I was 10 at the same time.
Um, we had a family that moved in and, um, there I became really good friends with this kid. And, um, apparently the , the mom and the dad and the whole family, they were all members of the church. And it wasn't until maybe three years later when I was 13, they, um, the mom actually invited me to meet with the missionaries, and, um, they taught me the lessons and, um, they got me and my brother, and then they invited us to get baptized, and yeah, we've been members ever since.
- Wow. Fantastic. And then, uh, just going through the emails that, uh, we've corresponded through, you know, not just about this interview, but just in general, and I, I was reminded of an, of an email you sent just about, uh, how leading Saints has helped you and maybe through a dark time in your life. What what's the story behind that? Yeah, - So, so yeah. So, uh, it was probably in, uh, 2021, um, the start of that year.
I, I just felt really, um, just overwhelmed and, um, I don't know how to describe it. It was, it was kind of like a depression that just came over me. Um, and I was talking to my bishop at the time, so, um, I, so under a different bishop we have from the new Bishop now since then.
Um, but I was talking to my bishop and I was the Adams Corn person at the time, and yeah, I was just going for a really dark time, um, and it was really hard, and he just counseled me to actually, um, meet with a counselor, and I just thought, oh man, I don't wanna meet a counselor. Like, you know, there's all that stigma behind, um, meeting with counselors. And I just, you know, just swallowed my pride and just like, okay, I, I think I should probably see a counselor.
And, um, I was just talking to the counselor just unloading my burdens. And, um, yeah. And she just recommended me to listen to this podcast, and she think she thought that, um, this would actually help me out. And so I'm really grateful for that counselor to actually recommended this podcast to me. Um, - So so the counselor recommended Leading Saints to you? - Yeah, yeah. , yeah, she recommended it to me.
And at first I wasn't gonna listen to it, but then I was like, actually, I've, I'll give it a listen, and I just could not stop listening to you . Um, wow. It was actually everything that I, you know, I answered a lot of questions that I had, um, personally, but, um, yeah, I, I, I love how your podcast at the end ends with going to be Hinkley's, um, quote about leadership. And I was just thinking, man, like, why do I feel these feelings about loneliness and leadership?
And, you know, I've been thinking about that for a long time, you know, when I had this experience, and then when I was gonna listen to your podcast and I heard that quote, I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, this is what I needed. Like, Henley Farmer was looking after me, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, it really pulled me out of a dark hole, and yeah, I'm just so grateful for this podcast. - Wow. Cool. Well, you have to connect me with that, uh, that counselor that, that recommended it.
Yeah. Did she, did she recommend a specific podcast episode, or, - Um, no, she just recommended just a general podcast, yeah. Oh, cool. - Yeah. All right. Well, I, I, I definitely, uh, I don't see leading Saint as a general, you know, therapy, uh, tool or resource, but hey, if it helps, yeah, , that's great. You know, so really cool.
Now just tell me, uh, what, what the church is like in your, in your ward, in your area, the makeup of your ward, demographics, anything that, uh, would help us better understand your, uh, religious community. - Yeah, yeah, sure. So, um, den has actually had a huge history, uh, I believe it's like over 160 years or something like that. It took us a long time to go from a district to a stake.
We only just became a stake, uh, in 2016, and that was the time I became, you know, ward executive secretary at that time, um, of my ward. And, um, so we got two wards in Dunedin. Um, the unique thing about our stake is that to go from one to the other end of the stake is a, at least a five hour drive. Um, so it's actually quite large and geographic area.
Um, but the year, the two wards that I'm, well, that, that are near me, the, my local wards, the one that I'm in, the demographics is usually pretty old, like, probably like maybe a third of them. Uh, like really old people. And by that I mean like widows or really quite elderly. Um, and then we are starting to get really awesome, um, is that we're starting to get young families actually getting baptized into our ward. So probably a, a huge chunk of that is young families.
Um, and then, yeah, so that's pretty much the main demographics of our wards. We just got really old people and really young families as well. Um, and then the other ward here in Dunedin, um, that's mostly just young families. Um, they've got some little age people and then they've got a whole bunch of students. Um, a lot of people come down here to study, so we have a huge group of young, single adults, um, that come down here in that, into that ward. Yeah. Yeah.
- Interesting. And you've had a variety of different, uh, leadership roles from, uh, being secretaries and clerks, and now you're currently serving in the Bishoprick. - Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. - Nice. Awesome. Um, anything like in general, your approach to, and we'll talk about some of the principles you have and if, and I'm, you know, if you wanna jump into one of these principles, uh, feel free, but just that role as being a counselor in a bishoprick.
Like if you were giving someone else some advice of where to start, uh, in a bishoprick, what, uh, as a counselor, what, what advice would you give? - Yeah, so I think the, the best advice I would give, um, is if you go into a new bishop, um, brick or, um, being called as a, for the first time, um, dearly, you wanna talk to the Bishop, um, first and just get, um, get on the same page as he is. Um, 'cause you really want to know like what is his vision?
What is his, I guess what does he, is his goals for for the ward? What does he want to achieve under humanly father's direction? Um, because once you know that, then it'll make it easier for you to know how you can assist Bishop. 'cause you're not trying to, you know, do the opposite things of Bishop. You're trying to actually help him to move the water along. Um, and I guess the second best advice is read the handbook.
. Yeah. And the handbook's got some really good stuff there for, um, new, um, Bishop, um, members or just any calling really if you want to know about. Um, but yeah, definitely talk to your bishop and understand what your portfolios are. Um, once you know that, then you can get the assistance you need. Yeah, yeah. - You know, it's funny, you have to mention to read the handbook, you think that would be assumed.
And and I think generally it is assumed, but you get into these roles and they're very administration heavy. And so week to week you just sort of get buried and, okay, we, we got speaking for sacrament meeting, or you know what, you know, I gotta meet with the primary presidency. And you sort lose yourself in these different demands.
And so to just have a routine of saying, okay, like, I'm gonna get through the full handbook in the next month or something and just, you know, with the Gospel Library, just take a chunk of it every day and just read, you know, a few pages or paragraphs or whatever and before you know it, you're through it. And then it's amazing. You'll be sitting in a meeting and think, oh wait, they referenced this issue or this dynamic in the handbook, let's go and see what review and see what it says.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like reading the handbook is just so, so useful and so helpful. Um, to be honest, I haven't actually read the whole handbook 'cause it's quite, oh boy. It's quite a thick . Yeah. Yeah. It's quite a thick book. Um, - Yeah, there's a lot in there. - Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, definitely I, I've read all the parts for my portfolio, so I know pretty well the, the things that I handle in the ward. Yeah. - That's cool. Very cool.
Well, you have four great principles here that I think will give us a lot to talk about. And the first one being, uh, beware the spirit guides you. Yeah. Unpack that. - Yeah, so I think it's a re um, really important, um, principle. It's something that I learned, um, when I actually became the Ward Executive Secretary.
Um, and it's got some, it's a lot of personal experiences for my life where, um, you know, I came back from the mission, um, in 2013 and, you know, my number one goal was to, um, get out of New Zealand as soon as possible, . And, um, that's because, you know, I served in Hong Kong, I served with all these American, um, elders, and I just thought, man, I want, I wanna go to America. I wanna live there, you know? And, uh, I was quite stubborn.
Uh, you know, I, I went to university and I got a degree in international business because I thought, just take me as far away as you possibly can from New Zealand . And, um, man, - There's no place I want to go right now than New Zealand. We should just, you know, we should exchange lives for a minute. - Yeah. Um, yeah. And so, you know, I, I really, I really wanted to leave New Zealand and, um, and I, I, you know, I got married in 2014 to my wife who I met on the mission.
She was another, um, sister missionary. Um, and, um, I was talking to - Is she from New Zealand as well, or - No, so that's a, uh, interesting part of the story is that, no, she's not from New Zealand. She's actually from the Philippines. Oh, okay. Um, and so she, yeah, so , it's quite, quite weird, eh, um, we, yeah, we both met in Hong Kong as missionaries and yeah, we just, yeah. Awesome. Cut it off since then. awesome.
- Awesome. Um, so keep going as far as this, uh, this you wanted to get outta New Zealand? - Yeah, so I wanted to get out of New Zealand, and I just talked to my wife and it wasn't until, um, so I got called as the Ward executive secretary.
And then it wasn't until like the start of 2017, um, that I, I just had a feeling and I just said to my wife, look, we got to, we got to save up for our house because at that time we were just living with my mom because she's actually got a pretty large house. Um, it's two story. And so pretty much the whole second, well the ground floor was, was was ours. So it was kind of living in our own house, but not .
Um, and so, you know, I just, um, said to my wife, look, we need to start looking for a house. And, um, and she said, yeah, okay. And you know, me and my wife, we were quite amateur, um, at it because like, you know, people know how to, um, get like a house broker and, and stuff like that. And, uh, look, we didn't do any of that stuff. We just had no idea what we were doing, and we were just following the spirit and just trying to fig figure things out.
And, um, and my wife just said, look, yeah, I, I think I agree with you. We need to start looking for a home and, and buy a house at that time. Um, at that time, um, I was working a fur minimum wage job. I was actually working at McDonald's, um, which is quite funny. Um, my wife has actually got, you know, she had a real job. She was actually, um, a a health, um, caregiver, um, at a rest home. Um, so she was making the money.
Um, and it wasn't until probably about July of 2017 that we, um, actually started seriously to looking into getting a home for ourselves. And I remember we, we went to the temple, and, um, before we went to the temple, um, in July, we actually put an offer for our home that we wanted. But, uh, we didn't actually get it. But that wasn't that, I didn't actually feel bad about that.
It was, uh, you know, I felt confirmation in the temple that, like, you look, we, these, you know, out the sign to actually have our own home was correct. Um, and that we were to stay in Dunne in New Zealand for, for a while. Um, I had finally accepted the Lord's will, um, that that was it for us, for our family.
And so when we got back, we actually found a house like a month after, um, and we put an offer on it, and it was really, we, because the person, um, the real estate agent said, look, uh, no one's actually put an offer on this house. You're the first one. And so we put an offer in, and then the, you know, the homeowners at the time, they counted offered, and then we counted offered, and then we came to agreement , and then we finally got our home. And, um, yeah.
And it was really crazy because at that time, we didn't actually have that much saved up for a home at all. Um, we needed 10, 10, uh, percent deposit. That's not, I don't know if that's the same in America, um, but yeah, in New Zealand we needed like a 10%, um, deposit at that time. And, um, yeah, it was just a huge miracle how, um, the Lord actually guided our family into getting a home here in New Zealand.
Um, because, you know, with our home, we've actually had a lot of young single adults that stay with us, like actually live with us. Um, and we, we charged them barely any rent . Like we were, you know, we just, you know, we, you know, we just, we believe that this home was given to us by the Lord, and we, we use it to bless others.
And, um, yeah, that principle of being where the spirit needs you to be is, is really important because, you know, I think a lot of us, we have a lot of these desires to serve the Lord, and we want to serve our father in heaven. Um, you know, sometimes we seldom ask like, okay, where is it that you want me to be? Where is it that you want me to stay?
And I think sometimes, you know, we can get in our head like, oh, you know, I want to be here, but is that necessarily where the Lord wants you to be? Um, well, that's something that I've, you know, come to figure out for myself because the Lord has always directed us and given us a lot of opportunities to serve. Um, you know, and I, I was having this, uh, conversation with my state president, um, when I actually got called to be, um, brick council.
'cause I was his executive secretary at that time, um, . Yeah. And that's funny because I was the stake executive secretary of my state president, and when he was bishop, I was actually his ward, uh, executive secretary. So he just took me in when love, you know, um, yeah.
So I was just talking to him and we were just talking about like, callings and we were just having this long conversation about like, you know, our, how we served in the church and, you know, he's had a quite a big history of church leadership callings.
And, um, you know, one thing that we, we both noticed, like, you know, if I did actually go to America of somewhere else, maybe, you know, when I've had these opportunities to serve, you know, and these callings that I have had served, you know, to serve in, you know, nine to 10 different callings in the past 10 years is, is quite unheard of. Um, you know, I think Heley favor for a lot of those blessings, you know, to, to serve in those callings, you know, 'cause it, it's taught me a lot.
It's made me grow up a lot more . Yeah. Um, and to more mature up. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I mean, yeah, I, I think it's really important that we know where the spirit wants us to be. Um, and the spirit will actually guide you. Um, I, I guess I'll have, I have another experience, um, with this principal was when I was the, um, analyst Corps president. Uh, and this was back in 2020, so this was Covid lockdown. Um, and in New Zealand we had quite strict, um, lockdown rules.
And so this was after that period. So I think we had locked down, uh, from March until maybe like August of 2020. So that was quite a long lock lockdown for us. Um, and this member, um, he was actually my counselor in the , um, presidency with me. Uh, he worked with the local, um, Pacific Trust. Um, so, you know, we got like a lot of Pacific Islanders and stuff like that. And he was a part of that community.
And, um, he got this big massive box of meat, um, I think it was like a pork meat, and it was just tons of it. And he gave me this box and he just said, go and, uh, go and deliver this to some members that actually need it. And I was like, oh, okay. And I thought of like one or two families that I've thought of, um, because they were in my ministering family. So I was like, okay, I'll, I'll deliver some, some to them.
And then the, the rest of it was, it was quite strange because in my mind I had that, okay, I'm gonna go visit my friend who lives up the hill and, and then I'll come back down and I'll drop off some, some meats to other families that I think that will, will love this. And, you know, know, I just had this prompting to like just, Hey, actually don't go up the hill. Just drive around your, your neighborhood, um, and drop off this meat to this family.
And it was really wet because I was driving and I was gonna go up the hill. And then, um, I just turned and I drove into this really random, um, neighborhood, and I didn't really have any idea, um, you know, w where I was going. But the, but the Lord, uh, pressed upon my heart that I was to deliver this meat to this, um, new, uh, move in from a family that came from Samoa.
And, um, it was quite random because, um, just as I was driving around and I was about to reach the house, um, the wife, um, or the mother of that family, um, was walking on the street and I saw her and I stopped her and I was like, Hey, I've got some meat for you. And so she starts walking back to her house maybe like a minute away. And so I drive to the house and just as I get there, she's, she's there.
And, um, and then I knock on the door and, and the husband comes out and then I give them this meat. And they're really grateful for, um, the meat because they, they actually needed it, you know, they were struggling at that time. Um, so yeah, so that's a really great example of, you know, just be where the be where the spirit needs you to be, you know? Yeah.
- Yeah. That's powerful. And, and I just love the framing that there's sometimes we, we want more details and specific guidance of like, okay, who do I talk to? What do I say? You know, but just to be at peace that, well, at least I know I'm where I'm supposed to be, right? Like, whether it's where you live or today as you serve, you just be where, uh, you feel nudged by the spirit to be. And, and then, uh, it's amazing how things just work out that way.
So, yeah. Um, tell me about, uh, being willing to serve in the invisible callings. - Yeah. So this is, this is a, a really good principle. I, I guess I've learned over the years. Um, and, and, and it's quite interesting because, um, what , you know, this past general conference with, um, you know, outer David a Bedner, he actually touched a lot on the, a lot of the points that I actually wanna talk about.
Um, which is like, oh, I must have, I must have been in tune with Spirit or someone lovely. You know? Um, yeah. So I think, yeah, just yeah, don't, yeah, be willing to serve in the callings. And what I mean by those callings is that you don't have to, um, be upfront and the, and the frontline, I guess, battle. Um, so you don't have to serve, you know, as an analyst person or relief Sanji or Bishop Rick members or even, you know, the Ward Council.
Um, the invisible callings, um, that I would consider, well, the callings that I would consider invisible. 'cause you don't see them that often. Um, you know, like the nursery leaders, the primary teachers, the young men advisors, the young woman advisors, um, the secretaries, especially the secretaries, um, and the clerics.
Um, to me, those are the invisible coins because a lot of, um, the work that happens in the ward is actually like a huge bulk of the membership are not in, um, those, you know, the frontline callings. Um, just like Anna David a Benard said. Um, and you know, I, I learned this when I was the, actually the ward executive, um, secretary and the state executive secretary. It was just reemphasized that, you know, you can actually do a lot behind the scenes.
You know, people don't actually need to see what you do. Um, and I was actually reminded of this great, um, uh, principle, uh, that I learned in the Book of Mormon, um, from a friend. And he was just, um, you know, in the Book of Mormon, we, we hear about Nephi, we hear about layman and Mio, of course, and then we hear about Jacob. But there's only a few instances where Sam is actually mentioned. Um, and you know, Sam was a righteous brother of Nephi.
He, you know, he, he was a good man, a righteous man, but it doesn't really say much af you know, in the book of Mor about him. And you know, like, even though it doesn't say much about him, we just know that he was a good righteous man. And I think with the invisible callings, our ward, um, our members, they do so much. You know, they do so much for the ward. They do so much for, um, their callings, or even if they don't have callings, they do so much for their ministering families.
And, you know, they don't need to be, I mean, you know, you don't need to be recognized to know that you are building up and serving, um, God's kingdom, um, and helping those members. And it just reminds me of that, um, scripture, um, and first Corinthians 1223, you know, the, um, those members of the body that we think are less honorable, you know, upon those, we bestow more abundant honor, um, which is a really good, good scripture to describe this principle.
'cause I think, yeah, there are so many people on our ward that do so much, but you know, they don't, but they don't serve in the front line callings, you know? Mm-Hmm, , - Yeah. The last wagon, right? - , yes. Yeah. Yeah. - So yeah, that's, that's powerful principle. Anything else related to those invisible callings, uh, that needs to be said? - Yeah, I think, yeah, those are the callings that, that, well, for me anyway, it really helps me to understand like how the ward works.
And I think if you get one of those invisible callings, you really can serve and give it all. And just like Anna David said, he said, you know, to serve quietly, faithfully. Um, and then, and it's really important because, you know, it's not about, you know, it's not about the glory, you know, for your own gain or, or personal glory. This is, you know, all glory to God because this is his church, this is his kingdom.
And I love it when, um, you know, people, like, they compliment you and, you know, they say, oh, you are awesome at this. You know, you don't need to deflect it, but, um, just put it in the back of your mind and, and just accept it and to say thank you. But then when you're on your knees praying to your father in heaven, you know, thank him for, um, the glory that you've received and give it back to your father in heaven because it's, it's his work, you know?
Um, and that, you know, just be grateful that you remain an instrument in his hands that you can actually do this work, you know, and be a witness of it. - Amen, brother. All right. Next principle is love the people you serve. This is always a, a, an interesting principle 'cause it can be so elusive or it's, it can be kind of vague as far as how to love people. So how, how have you found it most effective to love those that you serve?
- Yeah, so, um, one of the things, um, that's really been on my mind around recently and lately is, um, you know, and we are Jesus Christ. He said that, you know, um, the shepherd leaves the nine, nine and always goes to the one. Um, he's always focusing on the one. And, um, and I really believe that all of us, we like individually, we always have someone that we can go to and to, to minister.
And in my mind, well, maybe it's just me, um, or maybe others may think it, but like, I do really think that, um, that for us, there is gonna be only there is gonna be that one person that only we can touch. Um, because we know then that well, like, we're the only ones that would be able to reach out to them or get through to them.
Um, and I had this, um, this experience when, you know, you know, when I came back from the mission, um, I was serving as the young, uh, men's, uh, presidency counselor. And I had this friend who had actually gone less active from the church, unfortunately. Um, and, and due to some unfortunate decisions he made, he actually, um, left church. Well, he was actually excommunicated actually. Um, and I just decided to reach out to him.
I was actually, um, studying one day and I was actually preparing for my exams, uh, for an accounting paper that I had at university. And, um, I opened up my personal study, like, you know, I, I said a prayer and I was about to, to study the scriptures. And I was actually reading, it's kind of funny how I'm talking a lot about him, but out of Dayday, Bens book, , um, acting Doctrine. That's a good one. Yeah. And it's awesome.
And I really wanted to practice the principle of charity, um, having charity in me. And I just prayed. And then I said, look, uh, I'm just gonna study my scriptures. I'm gonna, you know, study my personal plan, um, if you, you know, if I want to experience, you know, charity taking over me. And I just had this spiritual prompting to just, okay, you, you're not gonna study your scriptures. You actually just gonna go out and walk. And so .
So I just got outta my house and I'm like, man, this is really random. This is like nine o'clock in the morning. And so I just walked like, maybe like 10, 15 minutes, just aimlessly not knowing where, you know, I should be, you know, just like that description, you know, in the B of Mormon with Nefi. Um, and I, I went to my friend's house really randomly, and I just knocked on his door and there was no response.
And so I was like, oh, man, I don't want this walk to be a waste of my time, so I'm just gonna knock around the house and just make sure that he's not actually there. So I was just looking through the windows, making sure that no one's home, and yeah, no one was home. And then I was like, oh, what should I do? And then, uh, the spirit came to my mind and said, I walked to his mother's house. And so I was like, oh, okay. And so his mom's house is like another like five, 10 minutes.
So I walked to his mom's house and, um, just as I arrived at his mother's house, he comes in his car and arrives at the same time as, as I did when I arrived at his mom's house. And I was like, Hey, uh, do you, you came for a catch up? He's like, yeah, yeah, I'll just talk to my mom for a bit and I'll come out.
And so it was really interesting because what had happened is that me and him, we haven't actually caught up for a while, um, because, you know, I served a mission and, um, this is the man that actually baptized me when I was in comfort to the church. Wow. So he baptized me. Yeah. . And so, um, so yeah, I was talking to him and I actually spent like maybe like three hours with him, and he was actually, um, telling me, you know, a lot of things had actually happened.
Um, at that time, um, you know, he was going through marriage problems. Um, and unfortunately he separated from, well, he forced his wife at that time, and it was just going through all these hard difficulties and, and it was really good to actually see him. And it was like, well, actually, I wouldn't have actually had that experience if I wasn't able to actually love him, or if I didn't have any love for him.
And I think the reason why I had that experience and could be, uh, prompted by the spirit to go where I needed to go was due to the fact that I actually loved him. Um, he was like a brother to me. He's always like a, an older brother to me. And, um, yeah, eventually, I think it was like a year later, um, he actually got rebaptized in the church. Um, I actually baptized him, so . Oh, - Wow. That's cool. - Yeah. So it's not every day you get to say, you know,
IBI re-baptized the person that baptized me. , - Well, I, I mean, uh, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry, you know, they sort have that Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. That dynamic. That's cool. - . Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so it's definitely, you know, important to love the people that you, you serve and you talk to, um, because it's not coming from you, if that makes sense. It's actually coming from the savior, Jesus Christ.
And, um, you know, another experience that I had was that I actually, uh, approached, and this is something probably that I don't know if other bishop members do, but I do it, but I approached members when their temple recommends are actually expiring. And I actually ask them, Hey, do you want to renew your temple Recomme? Yeah. I love it. Yeah. You know, um, just being proactive because, you know, I I, I sincerely want them to go to the temple and, and be in the house of the Lord, you know?
Um, and so anyway, I approached these two members that, that I don't really know that well, but I knew that they, they need to go to the temple, Lord, I just felt like they needed to go to Temple and they just need someone to say, Hey, look, we'll help you out. And anyway, I approached these two members and they both said yes to actually getting these temple recommend interviews.
And what really, um, impresses me is that when I did the Temple recommend interviews with both of them, um, like I expressed love from our savior to them, like all like at the start and, and at the end of the interview and you, you know what, they both didn't, they didn't actually pass their temporal recommend interviews, both of them.
And to me that was really humbling to to know or have their experience because when I asked them to have their temporal recommend interview, they may have an inkling or they may have actually had a thought, they like, I'm not gonna pass. But they were still humble enough to actually go through with the Temple, uh, recommend interview anyway.
And to me that was like, wow, you know, the savior really works in mysterious ways because, you know, I was expressing love to them saying like, the safety of loves you, you know, don't feel bad about not, you know, passing your temple. Recommend interview. I'll pass your name to Bishop and he'll work with you and we'll get you those temple recommend, uh, recommends so that you can go to Temple. And, um, yeah, so that's what I did.
I passed their names to Bishop, and Bishop worked with them for a couple of months and now they've both got their temporal recommends. Um, so, you know, you definitely have to show love or, or just be willing to feel the love that the savior has for them. And that will really transform how you actually minister to your family as minister to the members of your ward.
Um, especially, um, that's, that's something that I really as a elder core president, is that you really have to love these people and and sacrifice as much as you can for them. Yeah. - Yeah. I love it. Alright, uh, uh, this, this last principle is to be a great leader, you need to be a good follower. And so, uh, but I, at the same time, it correlates really well with the, the closing question I always do.
So the last question I have for you Wilson, is, uh, as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? - Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question. And, you know, in my, in my life, um, especially in, in these experiences with these leadership callings, um, you know, I learned theory early on, um, that to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower.
And sometimes that means that you have to follow leaders that maybe their decisions you disagree with sometimes. Um, and just accept and be humble to that because, you know, maybe they see things that you don't, and you know, the people that you follow, they hold preceded keys sometimes, you know? And so because they hold preceded keys, they, they hold the right to receive that revelation and you need to accept that. Um, and so I had this one experience with, um, with a leader in my church.
Um, he was actually a young men's leader at the time. He was my young men's president. And, um, me and him, we just had like a PPI, I don't know if PPIs still offering, or we call them PPIs, - Ministering interview, let's call it that. - . Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, and so he just sat me down. I was probably like 16 at that time, and I just love him. Um, and, you know, to me he was more of like a father figure to me.
'cause I, I didn't grow up with a dad in the home, so he was more of a father figure to me. And, um, you know, we were just talking about like callings and just serving interest in general and just talking about like the future, like what I want to achieve and, you know, serving a mission and stuff like that. 'cause he knew that I wanted to serve a mission.
Like, you know, I, I, I've always wanted to surf and he just, I don't know how we got onto it, but we just got onto the, um, topic of like serving in the church and I don't know why. And then I, I just remember having this experience with him. I said like, oh, I don't have a calling. Like, I just, you know, I just do my, you know, I just do my thing as a priest and I just, you know, and I, you know, come prepare sacrament and, and bless it and stuff like that.
And, you know, he said to me, look, you don't need a, a calling in the church actually. So you, you are doing a lot, um, in your, in your priesthood office. And, you know, that goes back to the, you know, the principle of serving in the invisible callings. You know, don't be afraid to just, just serve, you know, you don't need a calling to serve. You know, I think sometimes we get it fixated in our head that we, um, we need some sort of assignment to go out and serve.
But no, if as long as it's under direction of Heavenly Father and you know, you're not, you know, I guess going against the keys that the bishop holds, then it's all good. Like, you know, you're doing what you're meant to do. You go out onto you surf. And, um, he was, and then he just reminded me of like the example that I had among our young man. And I, I didn't think of it at the time because I was a recent comfort.
Well, look, I would've been in comfort for like, what, three or four years at that time. And he was just saying like, look, look at these young men that you've inspired to help go on missions, like to inspire 'em to go on missions because you've, you know, you're preparing so hard out right now to serve a mission. And it's robbing off on the, uh, the other young men. Um, and I didn't think about that.
Um, you know, sometimes, you know, to be a good fo um, leader, yeah, you have to follow the principles that our church leaders, um, set out. And, um, I, I guess there's another experience that I had was, um, when I was the, um, the state executive secretary, um, and for my state president, and I love my state president because he is very onto it, his theory, um, what's the word? Like straight to the point. Um, it, it, yeah.
So he won't, you, you know, he's not afraid to just tell you straight up how it is and you know, and he's not afraid to tell his ideas and feelings, which I really appreciate actually.
Um, um, but there was this one time in the meeting where we, uh, we were actually discussing callings and, you know, I really like, um, that principle, um, that you shared, you know, that, um, that scripture indoctrine covenants, um, about like, you know, if it's done faithfully, if it's done, you know, if you record it faithfully done in name Jesus Christ, and it, you know, it's all good. You know, it's - Doctrine covenants 1 28 verse nine. Yeah, - Yeah. That's the one. Yeah, .
Um, and I really love that, that scripture. Um, and yeah, we were discussing callings and it, it came to a topic, um, of what calling, uh, well, which person should hold this calling. And I put, I put maybe like a couple of names forward and everyone else put a couple of names forward and, um, you know, and, and the state president, um, just, I know, I, I think he felt like at that time, I mean, looking at hindsight is always 2020, right?
Um, at that time he obviously felt like it wasn't correct those names, you know, that we actually put forward. Um, and, you know, he called someone else. And it was kind of weird. 'cause at that time, at that meeting, at that time, I thought, oh, why, why won't you call this person? Like, this person would be great and they're excellent at this job. And then it was only for a split second. And then the spirit just reminded me, Hey, he's, he's suppressive leader, sustain him.
And so , so I had this, I guess I chastised it and a rebuke from the spirit saying, Hey, you need to su sustain, sustain him. And so I did. So, you know, I was really happy, um, um, with that experience. 'cause two weeks later, I think he actually proposed a name, um, for the, this calling. And I was like, okay, sweet. I sustain. Let's do it.
And you know, one of the things as a state executive secretary is that, um, you know, any callings from the stake, you, you, you pull it out to the, um, the high council for approval. And that's, you know, I was typing it in, I was pretty happy. And then, you know, send it off to the high council and just waiting for their responses to come in for approval.
Um, so yeah, that was a really, a good experience, humbling experience, just to be reminded, hey, to be a good leader, you need to be a good follower. And sometimes that means following leaders that make decisions that you don't necessarily like, but afterwards you might be able to understand or you might not understand those decisions. But, you know, our responsibility is to su su sustain those that hold the keys, those preceded keys. - And that concludes this how I Lead Interview.
I hope you enjoyed it. And, uh, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this, this experience. And this is how we, how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guy's doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, uh, that's, that's where great leadership's discovered, right?
So we would love to have you, uh, share this with, uh, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also, if you know somebody, uh, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the How I Lead segment, uh, reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, uh, see if we can line 'em up.
So again, go to leading saints.org/contact. And there you can submit all the information and let us know, and maybe they will be on a feature how I lead Segment on the Leading Saints podcast. Remember to watch the interview about scrupulosity, go to leading saints.org/fourteen for free access to the Mentally Healthy Saints virtual library.
- It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the Declaration was made concerning, the only and only true and living church upon the face of the Earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.