Does a youth leader ever feel like they have it figured out? This hasn't been my experience. However, I couldn't be an effective youth leader today without Dan Duckworth's presentation about going from youth worker to youth mentor. Mentorship is a key concept to understand when leading youth. In his presentation, Dan talks about ways to really turn the traditional approach to leading youth on its head. How can you better know your purpose? How
can you find out their life goals? How can you build a relationship that is transformational rather than simply filling time during the weekly youth activity. You can watch Dan's presentation in the Young Saints virtual library by going to leading saints.org/14. You'll get free access for 14 days and that will give you plenty of time to watch Dan's presentation a few times. Let's give youth the leadership they deserve.
So my name is Curt Frankem, and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and, obviously, the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog, and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking
with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how
is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about, sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, k. I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share.
Another episode of the Leading Saints podcast. I'm excited to welcome in a European, or is he South American, or is he a what what is he exactly? This is Andy Rosas. I know that. That's his name. Andy Rosas. He was so kind, while visiting Utah to step into the studio, and he, helps un help us understand the world of YSAs in the UK. He lives just outside of London and has, such a unique journey that led him to
Ireland and then, London. And he talks about not only his personal experience as a YSA, what's the, what's the makeup, what's the, the dynamic happening in, in the UK with YSA's. And then just from his personal experience as a Bishopric counselor, as a high counselor, as a elders quorum president, what are some things that he's learned about leadership? And it's a phenomenal journey, a phenomenal, discourse, a phenomenal, perspective about leadership. So here is my interview with Andy Rosas.
All the way from just outside London, England, Andy Rosas is with us. How are you? Good. Thank you. No. Thanks for having me. You fell into my trap. You see, anytime I get a listener outside of Utah, especially outside of the country, and they come to Utah, I I make them come to them at the studio and record an interview. So here you are. How do you feel about that? Good. Yeah. I mean, some of our ideas good. You know? Nice. Nice. Now how long have you been aware of listening to
Leading Saints? Oh, I think it's been at least 3 years. It could be 4. Yes. Oh, cool. Yeah. Someone recommended it to me. So yeah. Nice. One of the best. Now, your British accent is lacking. So I love your story. So you were born in Chile? Right? No. No. That's, like, the worst thing I could have said. Like me calling you Canadian. In Argentina. Argentina. I'm sorry. Yeah. Argentina. Southern South America. Yeah. But you moved your family moved there when you were 4. Right? So I can tell
it. Yes. Give us a give us a story. I'll I'll try to guess. So in 6, we we moved to Utah from Argentina. We were here for maybe 4, no, 5 years, maybe 6. And then we moved to Italy, to a small village outside of Milan. We were there for a year and a half and then Ireland. So Dublin. So for the rest. So it's been a while. And now currently I live in London. But yeah. Nice. Now, what's the word? You're not trilingual. You're quadrilingual. I'm not sure if you say that. A
word. Yeah. Yeah. So you obviously were raised in a Spanish speaking home from Argentina and then learned English just along Just in school and In school, living here. Right? And then you learn it Italian? Yep. Pretty fluent in Italian? Yeah. Yeah. I can speak it. Yeah. And then you're called on a mission to France? Yeah. France, Lyon. So so, I mean, were you, when you got that call, were you kinda were you excited to learn another language? Or No. No? I actually didn't like French.
And I yeah. My parents took me and my sister, Cecilia, to French lessons when we were small. And we both said we didn't like it. And my parents were like, okay. You don't have to go anymore. And so yeah. I didn't, but I do like it now. Yeah. Love the language. Yeah. And then, move to Dublin. So you speak a unique, unique approach to English there. Right? Nice. Nice. That's fascinating. And so you are I mean, do people see you I how do you identify?
Because you're you're Latino, but Yeah. You know, by blood. Right? But, I mean, what do you feel like you know the most like home? I don't know. It just depends. It depends who's asking. Yeah. Kinda change up the story. No. I just, I think, I feel it's in between Argentine and Irish. Uh-huh. Maybe just from what I'm used to, what I grew up with, you know, friends and going to school there for the most most majority of my life. So Nice. Yeah. A
mix of the 2 maybe. Cool. Now you are just to put you in the context today, like you are a young single adult, maybe on the edge of young. How would you describe your, your current state in life? Yeah. So I'd say young single adult. Yeah. And you've been involved in that? I've been for a while. So I just turned 32. Okay. Like, 4 days ago. Yeah. And so I've been in the YSA scene for a while now, and it's been mostly in Dublin and London. Yeah. So that's been my my experience in church in the YSA.
Yeah. Now I'm mainly familiar, obviously, with just sort of the YSA experience in Utah. You know, just obviously, I live here and I associate with YSA's. I've been to the the church's YSA conference here. I'm gonna be there here in a few weeks. What how would you describe, like, what is it like being a YSA in in Europe or in the UK? Well, I was trying to think of that the other day, and I I don't really have anything to compare with. It's kinda what
I know. But, my search is small, and it's very, it's very intimate. You usually know all the way, say, in the country you live in. So in Ireland, even though I was living in Dublin, I'd know or have some sort of relationship or friendship with all the YSA in all of Ireland.
So because the church is just so small, so it just feels a little lonely, a little, you know, there's few of us feels more family like maybe even though, you know, when there's less of you, you feel more connected even though you may be super different Yeah. In character. So it's very much like that. And it's, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, you attended a YSA award. I mean, do they have YSA awards? Or There's only 2 in Europe.
So there's Manchester and London. Those are the only 2 YSA And they're both in the UK. Well, okay. They're both in UK. Dublin doesn't have one. No. Yeah. It's too few. Yeah. Yeah. And so you but you've lived in just outside of London for how long now? Almost 5 years. Okay. And during that time, you're quite involved in Yes. And the the ward there. Too involved. Yeah. What are some of the callings, leadership roles and callings you've had there? So I had okay. So I
came in. I was asked to be clerk, almost 3 months in. And then after a few months, I I was in the bishopric, so second counselor in the bishopric of the YSA award, and then high council and then elders quorum present. And so that was, yeah, back to back. Nice. Yeah. Nice. And is it, I mean, is it typical thing that you're everybody sort of takes their turn with those things just because there's not a lot of, other members. I think it's more common. Yeah. Because there's
just so few of us. And, I don't think, yeah, it's I have friends who have after I finished up in the bishopric, you know, they took my place and they were wise, and there's been 3 now that have gone through the similar experience. Yeah. So it's not super rare. Yeah. Yeah. So with this experience, I mean, if you were to, be surveyed maybe by, you know, departments in
the church, they say, okay. Give us, like, what is the what are the biggest issues or concerns that you've seen, you've witnessed as far as the YSA demographic in in the UK? Wow. It's a loaded question. Right? But, I mean, what comes to mind? First time you have, I think just very similar to things here. Yeah. You know, I don't think that it
changes too much. Yeah. It's usually to do with current events, current concerns about, you know, how inclusive we are of diversity maybe and people who have different, let's say, backgrounds or even, different sex attractions that, you know, the church kind of, you know, those questions trying to clarify where the church stands and how they stand, you know, how they feel in the church, if they feel welcomed or not. You know, if, I have in London, we have,
a very inclusive group. We have so many YSA of different, countries, and even beliefs that some people have converted, you know, from different religions. And so everyone's trying to find their place in London. Everyone's different. And even though they're in the same city, everyone's situation is so different. And background has to do a lot with
that. Yes. And I imagine just like you're, I mean, you you've probably had, had close friends or, acquaintances that have maybe stepped away from the church and, you know, sort of deliver that news. And I mean, is there anything, anything to say to that or your experience seeing that or how you encourage or what comes to mind? How to encourage those people? Yeah. Or just like, what's that experience been like? I mean, just see it. Would you say that happens a lot or
Yeah. I think like many big cities, London is, you know, very distracting. It has a lot of things going on. And if, and there's, there's a place for everyone and in a way that's a great thing. But at the same time, I think, it's also a place where people try and find their identity and they try different things or they may, whether it's a different religion or a different lifestyle that they've grown up with, you know?
But, yeah, I've had quite a few friends who have come back or are kind of unsure or maybe they've kind of left. The good thing about the YS in London is that, even if someone's, you know, I felt like our friends that maybe were questioning things or question whether they should keep going to church, they they still attend. They still feel welcomed. It's not as intense maybe, the church culture. And so
they still feel more welcomed, maybe. I don't know what it's like here, but I could see how in Utah with such a huge concentration of members, it could feel a bit overwhelming or like you're being judged or watched. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. It's always hard to see a friend, you know, kinda lose their faith after you you've seen them grow or seen them share their testimony. But I try not to focus on that. Just focus on the friendship and Yeah. Sure.
What we still have in common, and that doesn't really change much for me in terms of my relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How does the like, the the any, like, the basics of how a YSA, either the ward or just the YSA community functions? You know, here Monday night, there's usually, some type of activity or, you know, lots of activities going on focuses, maybe mingles after church.
I mean, is that similar or anything you'd add to that as far as how the YSACE, organizations function there? Yeah. So, it's from my experience, it's mostly run at the steak level. Mhmm. So because there are no y say words, you usually have steak reps. You might have some ward reps, but you usually, it kinda falls on the steak reps to organize things like institute Mhmm. Family home evening because it's just such a lot less people. Right? And so, yeah, usually Monday's FHE, Thursday's Institute.
In London, we have that. We one big thing in Europe, and you might have heard of them, and you've just mentioned our conventions. And, like, conventions are a massive thing. They've been around since forever, you know, and that's So these are YSA conventions? Yeah. It's YSA. So and they're held in different cities all over Europe. And the UK in particular is really good at having them. They've been having them since forever. So every almost every major city has a convention once
a year or at least they try. Mhmm. And so and they invite it's a multi stake thing. So they and even people from other countries come, and that's always welcome because the church is so small that, you know, we don't mind. The more the better. So conventions are really the main way people get to know each other. They get to meet each other, and why I say get to together and conventions. Usually, the average size conventions, maybe 2, 300 people.
Yeah. Wow. And so this is the type of thing that it maybe it's in London or, and and they bring in speakers. And it's is it like a one day thing on a Saturday? Or how do they generally function? Is that It's a weekend usually. So it can start on a Friday night and ends on a Sunday afternoon or kinda after church. You know, they might do a devotional. And, yeah, sometimes they have speakers come in. Sometimes it's just the state president, you know,
the local leaders. And, they they try and do some temple conventions now. They're trying to do that so similar, but at the temple, focusing on the temple. And it's just a it's a way to really it's only it's actually one of the only ways the wise say get together and like, en masse Wow. In Europe Yeah. Is through conventions. Because otherwise, institute and, you know, FHE, they're just smaller
stake gathering. Yeah. Yeah. So are are these managed and directed to serve by the area of pregnancy or by each individual stake? It's each stake. So why say themselves usually organize them? They lead them. The stake obviously helps, and they can help in with the budget or, you know Mhmm. Providing you know, facilitating things. But, the area seventy is always aware of every they have a whole calendar for the year of every convention that's going to happen, whether it's in London, Sheffield,
Leeds, Manchester, whatever it is. So are there conventions that happen maybe in Germany that you would, you would travel to as well as you heard those? Those are separate kind of different area. Yeah. That that's handling those. Yeah. The wise are kind of free. I feel like there's a lot of word hopping here And over there, you'd have more convention hopping. Oh, okay. Germans I guess, German wise, they would have their own conventions, and they're probably in German. Right. Although everyone
speaks perfect English. Mhmm. They might have some parts in English. But, but, yeah, if you know about it, you could just fly to Germany, cheap flights. And if it works out, you can go to they won't reject you. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Go to German convention. So and then how often, like just in the UK, are these conventions happening? So I think they used to be more common, just before COVID. Okay. And I think now they're still still trying to get that momentum.
But I'd say there's one every, at least, I think, 4 or 5 months now, and it used to be more. So, yeah, I think it normally was, like, 3 months. Every 3 months, there was something going on. Mhmm. Interesting. The attending like this, was it more blatant than other times? Or what was that like that emphasis on marriage? Yeah. I'd say, again, it's hard to compare because I haven't Right. Right. You know, I haven't But I'm just like, you know, what have you felt
in your experience? Yeah. Yeah. I try to always go into the comparison. You're good. I think because you always hear that. Right? You always hear, oh, Mormons or Latter day Saints get married young, you know, or they're pushed to get married young. And I guess compared to, you know, outside the church, that's kind of true. It tends to be generally very true. And and even in Europe, it is like people do get married young compared to, you know, just society in general outside the church.
I don't think not as much. Yeah. I think you're right. I think these last couple of years, it's like it's not the main topic. Mhmm. I don't think. It's it's been more a focus on, your testimony, your relationship with Christ, your activity in the church.
But I think it's in, of course, it's in everyone's, you know, mind in the back back of their mind anyways or maybe, you know, marriage is probably one of the bigger points people go to YSA or they, you know, to meet other members of the same, with the same beliefs and values to date and then maybe eventually marry. So it's not spoken of as much, but, but I think maybe older generations still kinda talk about it more. And
yeah. Yeah. What's the dating experience just, as a Latter day Saint YSA, you know, here there's such a business, you know, it's not it's not it's not odd for me to to meet a new married couple in my ward and say, oh, how'd you meet? And they say, oh, mutual. Like, oh, okay. Like, is mutual a thing there? I mean, or what what's that experience line as far as the dating experience? Well, I'm the wrong person there, But it depends. I'm gonna get a lot of stick for this and back back home.
But, I'd say mutual is a thing over there. It is. Again, I'd say you'd find more Europeans. You know, it's not like if there might not be many people in your local area on Mutual. Uh-huh. There might be more European wide and people date between countries in Europe in the YSA. That is kinda common and it is considered long distance, but it's kinda like, you know, it is one of the biggest options if you want, you know, if you want to date within the church.
But, yeah, I think I can speak for British culture and Irish culture. Okay. Every country is very different in Europe. And in some ways, they're very similar. But generally speaking, dating in the YSA and in church is is really more of a, it's more it's taken way more seriously. It's always people like to make friends first. They like to hang out, get to know each other. And then when you know you like someone, that's when you ask them on the first date. So it's just a whole different pace.
It's a slow game. It's just it. It's a it's a lot more, you know, time commitment. Yeah. And it's a longer run kind of thing. Whereas I feel here it's more like a I don't know you. I'm just gonna ask you out. I get to know you on my first date, which in Europe, it's like, woah, slow. No. That's not right. So that's different culture. That first date may feel to us more like a 3rd date because, like, I already know you. I know your background. We have common friends. Yeah. That's the
thing because the church is so small. You know each other. Like, you've either grown up in the same stake or you know a friend of a friend who's dated. You know? Yeah. And so it's it's different. It's not as yeah. There's not as many people. And so I think it's just a different way to navigate it. Yeah. I think. And there's also different culture to it. Asking someone on a first date right away for a British person or an Irish person might be a bit too too fast or too I don't know.
Yeah. It's just how it is over there. The other day when we went to lunch, she alluded something. This I I don't know if you wanna go here, but, we can
cut this out if you want. But, like in in Utah, and again, it's been 18 years since I was, in the dating world, but, there's a feeling of like, yeah, I want to get married in the church and I haven't really found the right person or I'm waiting or, but there's this feeling of, you know, we're in Utah or even just in the United States, generally there's can be maybe more of a feeling of like,
Plenty of options here. So I'm going to just take it slow and get to know different people where you alluded to something and maybe you can correct how I articulate this, but just in, you know, in, in the UK, it's more of like, you know, people in your peers get to this realization of like, okay, I want to marry in the church, but I kind of, you know, I I've seen the field and I'm not encouraged by it. I don't
know. And so they kind of get the screw point of like, well, maybe, you know, as much as I want to get married in the church, I may just not. Right. I mean, how would you articulate that? Actually what you said is essentially I have, you know, loads of friends that have had different journeys in their dating life. And I have some that have done that. They've dated outside the church after a while because they felt, you know, oh, you know, there's nothing here for me, or Yeah. I don't
find someone that gets me. Although they may they may have similar values, we don't have Vibe, but we don't click or whatever. And so and there's great people outside the church. There's amazing there's great people everywhere. And so they meet someone and and they get married. And that's great for them when I, you know, wish them all the best, just like I would any in the church. So anyone
getting married in the church. So, but, yeah, I think that that probably happens maybe more than compared to here because, I have quite a few friends who've married outside the church. Mhmm. And to great people, they're just not members of the church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's my my heart goes out to them. It's such a paradox at times where It can be. Yeah. Again, even if they marry us with the church, I I it's
hard to frame it as this. You know, we we push such emphasis on covenants, but it's not like that's an act of rebellion per se. They're just trying, like, you know, I wanna have a family. I wanna get going. And so and you can still stay engaged in the church as a as a mixed faith marriage, you know? And, so, yeah, my heart goes out to those individuals. And I just imagine, especially in other you know, especially maybe in Europe, it's maybe more of a of a thing that Definitely.
That people have to really sit with and and process. And some people get to that conclusion pretty quickly. You know, they say, oh, well, there's no one here
for me. And when I look outside and and some people take a while, and they really struggle with that because they've always had that intention and that desire to marry in the church and be, you know, be married in the temple and not have that huge question mark in their head, you know, as to, oh, is this person one day gonna get baptized, or are they gonna lead me away from the church? And those are big questions Yeah. Someone has to ask themselves when they get to
know someone. Yeah. Really interesting. That's that's one of those things like there's not like a perfect answer or, but I think it's helpful just to recognize it and validate that it exists and that that's a really difficult part of, of this faith tradition we have. So, is there anything else as far as that YSA experience, your involvement? I know you've been on different committees and things. Anything else you would add to sort of paint the picture of the YSA experience in
the UK? I I I don't I don't think there is. I think it's just, again, the emphasis on there's few of us. And so with that brings, you have to keep in mind that members of the church in Europe, just in general, NYSA, they they they come to church, usually because they have a sense of family or community. It's not and they may not be converted. You know, people are different, you know, paths in their testimony.
But, there's people that go to church and friends, and I've been one myself that go to YSA activities because it's, you have friends and you you have you probably grew up with someone in that stake. And it's a, you know, it's a familiar place. But, what I'm trying to say is because in a way, you could say we're exposed to the outside world more, the mid I was the only young man in my branch in in Dublin. So I was the only young man for 4 years. I was the only member in my school.
So there isn't really a, you know, oh, I have an LDS friend in my school I can hang out with, or it's just you're exposed to your friends are of the world. You know? And I say that in the sense that they're not members of the church, and they may not share your values. My best friend or yeah. Best friend was atheist. He's a guy. He's Polish. We were so different. He was super atheist,
but we got along really well. And so I was from a very young age, I was exposed to questions like, all right, like, what do I really believe in? Like, why do I believe in God? Does that make sense? And so, yeah, I think it's just small. And so with that brings all those nuances. Cool. Yeah. Well, you mentioned some of the, the calling, the leadership callings you've had, which is just awesome experiences.
And, you've given me some leadership principles that we'll, we'll go over and I'm excited to unpack these. The first one is, an acronym spark, S P a r c. Yeah. Break that down for me. Okay. So in my mission, we had this saying or this acronym we used all the time, which is spark, you know, like spark in a fire or, you know, spark that starts a fire. And the acronym stands for it's in it's it's like French and English. It's kinda like a mix because it's French and English. Sure.
So the s stands for smile. The p stands for present yourself. So, like, introduce yourself as a missionary or whoever you are. And then a, which in French is amelior, which means to better someone's day or, like, give them a little compliment, you know, you know, make them smile. Like an mire maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. And then the r is for represent Christ. And so how you are and your demeanor, the way you you dress, or maybe the the way you act, the way you speak.
And then the last the last one is a c. It's not a k. It's Christ. So it's to testify of Christ or, especially as a missionary. And that's the point of, you know, talking to people as well was to not only make friends and represent, Christ, but to testify of them and, maybe, you know, share your testimony, essentially. Yeah. Just a simple testimony, of your belief in Christ. Nice. So I I love this is sort of a a mindset reset, right, where I'm walking into a
new situation. I'm meeting somebody new. I'm going to smile, present myself, and give them a compliment or admire them. And then, the r was Represent Christ. Represent Christ. Right? And then and, obviously, lead them to Christ. So, any any story or or any other dynamic of this, Spark approach that's helped you in in leadership? Or Yeah. I so I really liked Spark. And, and funny enough, after the mission, we me and my companions, a lot of
them were British. And so we still use that acronym when we speak in a joking way, but it kinda, you know, stick to us. We usually in the mission and even after the mission, we'd say, oh, did you spark that person? Or, you know, they got sparked really hard. You know? They got, you know, and, yeah, we've had great examples of, you know, people in the street we've met, we've talked to, where maybe initially, you know, Swiss people can be very, you know, reserved
to say the least and not interested. And they'll let you just pass by saying, you know, oh, I'm I'm busy. I'm like, I'm in a rush. You know, I don't wanna talk. And, maybe not the people most into religion these days. But, but if we manage to to catch their attention or to to really find something in common and just normalize who we are. Like, we're just people just like you, and we're missionaries just doing the best we can to to kinda
share something that's important to us. And if by the end, we made them smile or or or laugh, you know, to us, that was a spark. And, yeah, I'm trying to think of an example, but right now I can't think of 1. I can come back to it. No. No. That's fine. Of 1. Well, I just love it that, again, you're you're trying to because it's so easy to get hyper folks, especially in a mission context on the end result of we need baptisms. Right? How can we have baptisms?
And that's that's like a heavy burden to, like, start your day with. But it's like if but if I create sparks Yeah. Throughout my day Exactly. Over time Yeah. It'll lead to that. Right? Or it'll lead to a relationship or it will lead to an opportunity to serve. Right? Yeah. And it's the whole idea of igniting a fire, uniting that candle. We we can only do so much. We can give the spark, but they gotta provide the fuel. You know, they gotta ignite their own fire. And we have to be those
little sparks walking around. And, like, that's the mindset we had in the mission. And and was it was a baptizing mission. We had baptisms, maybe not compared to places like the Philippines or, you know, South America. But, like you said, that's not the way to measure mission Yeah. Or or the success of a mission. So our our mindset was, let's light up the world as much as we can through sparking people. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I love
this. This comes up from time to time in various interviews that we've done is, like, a leader will share, like, an acronym or a phrase or, like, a sort of almost like a rally cry around this one concept. And so your mission president, I mean, you can show up to a reunion. He can say, you know, how many, how's the sparking going? Right. And, you know, like there's, there's so much data
in that. And it's like a it's a cultural seed that they can, give you a a a 10 minute lesson in with one phrase of or reminding you of that thing. And so this I I love that. Like, I just I do wanna underscore that. Never underestimate the power of, like, condensing what you want your culture to be in a phrase or, you know, a a moment that you can continually come back to remind people. It's really powerful. Yeah. I agree. And just even if you don't have an acronym, just creating a culture Yeah.
Or, you know, of of a common goal is very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. The next principle is grow a personality, not just a testimony. I love that. I love how this is framed. Oh, yeah. Tell some more. I got a lot of what to say about this. Okay. But, I love it when I and when I highlight, every once in a while, you get your accent comes your Irish accent comes through. I love it. It's a mix. It's a it's a
terrible mess. It's so cool. Let's see. So, initially, I sent you this phrase, and I and I put in get a personality, not just a testimony. A little more. Right? Yeah. I thought maybe let's soften it and be nicer and just say grow. Because it's true. I think I'm a big believer. It's I've thought I remember a few years ago thinking this is it was maybe in a leadership meeting. We were talking about the importance of testimony and how can we help strengthen YSA's testimony.
And, someone had mentioned how in another conversation, how they felt at church people were kind of the same or and and I just kinda made I kinda brought those 2 conversations in my head. I'm like, oh, I think getting a personality is probably really important. Like, it's I really believe, you know, we believe we existed in the preexistence. We lived with God before he created us. So surely we had a personality. Surely we had a persona or characteristics, and we've brought that with us.
So and maybe to some extent, we had a testimony. Right? I guess we just forgotten. And Yeah. And so Definitely. I think maybe we forgot our personality sometimes. I don't know. I I think people sometimes they go to church and they they and that's great. And we get testimonies because that's what we were told to do, and that's also great. That's exactly what we should be doing.
But, we forget to kind of add a little texture to church, like, to our lives and to, to include diversity, like, like get a personality, like grow on your talents. Like there's scripture about it. Like grow your talents. You know, get a hubby. You know, don't make church your hubby because that's 1, sad and 2, not a good idea. There's a lot of bishops out there that that need to hear that. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna yeah.
It's true though. Right? I think it's important to, don't make church your only social aspect of your life or circle. Don't make it just your only hobby. Don't make it your only your only. Right? Just get get out there in the world, make connections with people outside, grow your talents. And I think I think one of the people I really admire is Mr. Rogers. You guys Of course. British people don't know him very well because you know, he's American, and he he had a kids show here.
And in the UK, that wasn't a thing. I don't think they ever aired it, and he was great. And I even remember seeing him as a kid when we first moved to the US. And, and he impressed me because I didn't speak English. So I kinda, but he spoke English in the show, but the way he spoke and the way he was, he didn't need to communicate through words, his actions. Anyways, in an interview, there's a great interview you can find on YouTube.
I think it's yeah. I forget the name of the interviewer, but he he explains how important it is for kids and people in general to see their parents do something they love. So whether it's playing the guitar and they're really good at it, it's showing them that love for that talent is very contagious. And I think as a good leader in the church or anywhere, you wanna have some,
you know, something contagious about you. You, or at least at least show people that you can be in this gospel despite of your, you know, whatever kind of personality or characteristics you have. And they can, you know, they can complement the church and the and your leadership. You don't have to be cookie cutter. And if you are, that's great. But if, I don't really know what that means actually because I think everyone is very
different. But I think focusing on your strengths as a person will come across in your leadership. So, I actually think I found a quote that I really liked. So it's actually in that book I was showing you called God Never Blinks. And, it's a chapter that talks about just hard times this lady had. And and she it's a paragraph from her book, and it says, life is a series of problems. The reason for this is that God is more interested in your character than your comfort.
He's more interested in making your life holy than he is in making your life happy. Wow. Not to make it sound, you know, like life is depressing. Yeah. But I think the point is to get a personality. Get you know, we're all your books mentions it. We're all gonna get the dysfunctional card one day dealt to us in life. And those are definitely opportunities for God to work with us. And and a lot of personalities built through those trials.
Or at least they can. Right? They can really build personality. And just as a leader, I'd say, just don't take yourself too seriously. I think we take callings way too seriously, and it just gets boring. Just make it fun because it's not you know, you're not getting paid. Right. So it wasn't fun doing it. Yeah. It's a volunteer thing. So that's great encouragement. And I love this emphasis on personality.
You know, as a marketing guy, I have such a strong belief in, in branding, you know, and even personal branding. And, and what does that branding bring to your ward or that personality? Right. And then let it be what it is that God gave you that it's a gift, right. Rather than trying to fit in a box or, I mean, of course, there's general boundaries that, you know, we stay in and and, societal boundaries. But, and I'd love just that emphasis of, like, lead lead out. It goes back to Spark.
Really, you're you're leading out with a personality first before you, you know, lead out with that testimony. Because sometimes that testimony can be it's a sacred thing that maybe you don't wanna, you know, throw those pearls before swine type of thing, you know? Yeah. So that's powerful. And I'd say just to, like, highlight part of what you said, it's not, you know, not everyone in leadership or just in church, not even leadership. I really feel like your podcast is for everyone,
not just leaders. I agree. It's I I think you don't need to have a great a huge persona. You don't need to have the best lessons in the world to be to lead or to to shepherd people or to, you know, bring people to Christ. You don't need to have the best, you know, voice or the best presentation skills or the best personality. I think you just I think it helps us when we don't make church our sole identity.
And because it can I think that can be dangerous because when church disappoints or someone disappoints you at church, you can really get offended very easily and you don't really have anything to fall back on? And that's been my experience. It's it's important, in a good way, and you know what I mean by this, have a life outside of church. I'm not saying have a different life with different standards or principles, but have, you know, really work. I think God
gave us talents. God gave us our personas, our minds, our bodies, all these gifts, not just to get a testimony, but to develop like, you like basketball? Go play basketball. You know, make friends while you make while you play basketball. Connect. Maybe teach the gospel through gospel through through basketball. You see on TikTok and on Instagram, all these missionaries now, they rap, you know, gospel verses.
Or they play basketball, you know, with random people in the street and then they teach the gospel through that. And I think if anything, the church should go more that direction. You know, not like I'm saying, you know, I'm not telling the prophet what to do, but I think service missions are the future. I think we need to serve and we need to really connect with people on normal daily things that they deal with. And they'll see our
testimony. They'll see our light, our spark, and that, you know, that's how that is contagious. But, yeah, I think it's just being real and just being of the world in some way. Yeah. I love that. It's really, really helpful. Anything else as far as growing personality, not just a testimony or do we cover it all? Yeah. Actually, one last thing. Okay. So I was attending a YSA award here and someone, and I'll connect to your book again. I'm really putting in these. Oh, thank you. I
appreciate the plaques. So no, because I really studied it and it's got lots of good stuff and, I think I showed you, but I got all these pages folded in here. I got notes means a lot and I got a shared page. So for whoever read it, you have a favorite page, page 76. Okay. It's like completely underlined. Yeah. Half of it. And you go into relationships and the, you know, difference of between expectations
and relationships. Mhmm. And, actually, someone in the ward I went to the other day said said this, and I'll read it out. He said, relationships I don't know if there's a doctrinal bone. Anyways We'll we'll give it a go. Yeah. We can say that. Relationship with Christ is not reciprocal. We give our worst to Christ, and Christ gives back our best. And I don't know where he got that from, but it was a quote, you know, kind of to do with repentance.
We can give God anything we have and he'll make it better. It's not about, you know, performance. It's not about how good are you or measurements to then, you know, measure your identity and who you are. It's your identity has already been established. You know? You are a child of God. God's gonna love you regardless. So it's not about outcomes. It's about that relationship. And, I think page 76, people can read it. Awesome. Has, I think, a little more insight into that. And I
really enjoyed that. I'm intrigued. I wonder what I said on page 96. I gotta go check. I can read part of it or I can yeah. We can we'll let people find themselves. Cool. Cool. Last principle is, let people lead themselves. What do you mean by that? Yeah. Well, I also added that. I edited it a tiny bit, but not much. I kinda changed it to let people lead and whether it's themselves, so that's included. Uh-huh.
Or just in general, like, the point of a leader, in my opinion, in my leadership experience has been an enabler more than not telling people what to do. It's really just give people opportunities and give them an opportunity to find themselves in the church through service. And I think when we invite people to participate and they choose to participate, that lead that participation leads to conversion. And it's not necessarily just to do with covenants.
It can do, you know, it can be simple invitations. It can be, you know, can do the prayer or can you help us with this, you know, putting out the hymns, whatever it is. Or, even just an invite on you know, if you're an elders' comp president or whoever you are, just add them on Facebook or Instagram, send them a message and be like, how's it going? Don't even ask about church. Just because, you know, I think just you don't have to be best friends with everyone. I think that's not the role of a
leader. You need you don't need to have, you know, the best friendships in the world with everyone you help in in church, in your organization. It's mostly, to me, it's been more of be aware, you know, be aware of people, reach out both in a sincere, real way, not because you have to. Mhmm. And in my time in leadership, I've tried to focus on the people who come to church. I'm not saying I didn't focus on people who didn't go to church. That's not what I'm saying.
But I when they were at church, it was a good opportunity to to kinda see who's out there and feel who is the next person I should text maybe or maybe later on Sunday night, I dedicate 5 minutes to send a few texts to, like, hey, Mark. How's it going? You know? Are you okay? You know, it was nice to see a church. That's it. And, leading, I think, again, it doesn't have to be anything big. Oops. Sorry. There's, yeah, I'd say the main thing is just to give space, Make it a safe space to come to
church. When you're a leader, it's or anyone, not just leaders, make sure people feel okay or comfortable when they come to church. Don't do anything that won't make them uncomfortable. Everyone is in such a different mindset all the time. So you and it's hard to know how they're feeling. So, again, going back to your book, just lower your expectations. That's not what you said. I'm I'm really paranoid. I'm ruining your book for you. No. It's good that but I know what you
mean in the context of my book. But yeah. In relationships, it's important to sometimes, maybe not in your marriage. I don't know. I'm not married, but, lower expectations a bit. Maybe maybe that works too. I don't know. But in leadership, in my experience, don't, you know and again, it goes back to, like, just chill out. Like, have fun in your calling. Things don't need to be like clockwork. Being in Utah, I feel like there's everything's
so clockwork, and it's it's great. It's really cool, but the church culture here is very clockwork. And we can kind of forget the spirit of things. We've become very, you know, Pharisee Phariseeical. And the Pharisees, all they did was, you know, they, they kinda got rid of Christ and they wouldn't listen to him. They, you know, they shut him out. And so let's not shut out Christ through our own, you know, practices that can be kind of pharisee or go. We don't need to be on time all
the time. We don't need to finish on the minute. You know, it's not a big deal. Let, you know, let others have that safe space to to also teach, You know, lessons, should be guided, but in my opinion, the best lessons have been the ones where I've let others really do most of the talking. And recently, I had a great experience in Sunday school back in London where a friend of mine was teaching, shout out to David. Nice. Love it. And he's he got us to to reenact the trial of, the, Benedai.
Okay. King King. King. Noah. Yeah. And then I and Alma. Yeah. He got us to reenact it. And it was fun. It was a fun lesson. The time went really fast. And he helped us teach ourselves. He helped us lead the lesson ourselves because we were teaching the class and ourselves at the same time. And those are the best lessons in my opinion. And everyone has different learning styles and teaching styles. But I definitely think that, giving space to others to speak, church is a place to come in and
talk and share. It is. I think it's personally, I think it's more of a place to share than it is to teach. I think at home is where the teaching should happen to kids, to youth, and our own personal scripture time. That should be teaching moments. That should be the priority. But I think church is a place where we, you know, go and hear silly, crazy testimonies or give space to that. I don't think it's a big deal. I think we need to relax when someone goes off on tangents.
That's a good thing. That's a great thing that they're a church in the 1st place. Yeah. And so we should celebrate that more so than, you know, tell people, oh, no. We don't do this at church or we don't, you know, we don't go over, you know, this time or whatever. Yeah. That's awesome. Anything else as far as leading, let people lead. Does that cover it?
Yeah. One last thing I can think of, I had I have a friend here, and he was telling me about him and his wife, and they had different opinions. Oh, really? That's odd. Yeah. On on a particular subject Uh-huh. In terms of how they wanted to raise their child. And it was a big topic, and they weren't he's he's just worried. He's telling me, like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know what to think. And, you know, and they're great people. They're good members of the church. So they try.
They're not perfect. Like no one is perfect. And there were he was like, oh, you know, I don't know what's going to happen when they get older and how we're going to have that discussion. And and and then I remember we talked about it and we realized, well, as long as you try your best to live the gospel, do the things, you know, you should do, You're gonna have another member of in your parenting. It's gonna be the holy ghost. It's gonna be the the godhead.
And so that, again, going back to leadership, going back to being example, letting others see your spark, That example is gonna resonate. It's gonna show. It's gonna glow. You don't need to say certain things to to comfort someone. Your children will see it, and they'll figure it out. You have God on your side. You know, he's gonna help you parent your child. And same same with leaders. If you're trying your best, God is on your side.
And it's, it's I think it's not about becoming this perfect leader or this perfect lesson. It's just about building confidence in people. I think we say a lot of times at church, you know, church is about perfecting the saints. I actually will I don't like it is, but it isn't. I think it's about building confidence in the saints, confidence in in Christ, in the Holy Ghost, and those basics, because we know we're not
gonna be perfect. Yeah. And if we're so busy and so worried about becoming perfect, which again, in your book, you mentioned so many times. I really didn't pay him. No. You did. To, say this. He gave me a free book, though. I did give him a free book. But But yeah. And I think, if we emphasize too much on action and a checklist, we lose the the, you know, the vision of, oh, actually, the holy ghost is really important in in this decision or in this
relationship. So, yeah, we shouldn't forget, how important is to grow in confidence with the Holy Ghost. Yeah. I feel better instead of just feeling like, oh, you know, I I know I did this checklist, so I'm good. It's more of a learning how to feel confident about you and your relationship with Christ. Awesome. Andy, this is, I'm it's such a pleasure to to learn from you and and hear about the saints over, in in the UK and and, your experience,
your insights, all those things. Any other point, principle concept that you want to make sure we fit in here? Do we cover it all? Yeah, I think so. I think as I was preparing or kind of preparing, I'll be honest, to come here and speak to you. I was I kept thinking of the scripture that talks about, weaknesses and, you know, how Christ will make our weaknesses strengths. And Mhmm. I remember a mission companion telling me he hated that scripture. He's like, I don't think it makes
sense. And and, I I was, I think of that because I think we're given weaknesses, and that in turn, those weaknesses can actually be our strengths, because what we think we lack, it, it kinda makes us aware and open to correction. And if we are humble enough to follow that correction and, and that, that guidance from the holy ghost to how to improve and how to repent, That attitude in itself is is a strength, and that's all you need. You don't need to overcome weakness tomorrow.
It's just, it's like an attitude thing. And there's, Yeah. I always think of a little analogy someone gave me, but we don't have to go into that. It might be long. I don't know. Well, if you're teasing us with the analogy, what's the what Well, it's a little story someone made up. And so, like, there's this little story someone gave. I don't know who where who it was, but it's about this girl who goes and does karate lessons or wrestling. I don't know what it is.
You can tell I didn't prepare this story. You did great. And she was missing a left arm and from a tragic accident, you know, but she wanted to take up, you know, these lessons and do, you know, self defense and be stronger. So she starts going to lessons and her coach is this wise guy. And, you know, he sees her and he also sees, you know, she's missing a left arm. And so he teaches her a few moves, and then he focuses on just one move.
And and and it's her taking him down a certain way in this wrestling move or whatever it is. And he teaches her that, and that was the first lesson. And then she comes through the second, and he's like, great. Like, did you practice? You know, are you ready, to move on? But funny enough, he still does the same move. He wants to perfect it. He's like, oh, we should work on it more. And then the 3rd lesson, she does the same move, like the whole practice.
And she's like wondering, okay. Like, why are we just doing this? This is pretty boring. This is really repetitive. Like, does he think I'm really, you know, not great at this? And then the next, there was some tournament coming up, and he tells her, you know, get you know, don't worry about it. Just stick to what you know, like the 1 or 2 things you know. And and so she goes to its first tournament, you know, very novice people, and she starts fighting or wrestling these other opponents.
And she takes them down, all of them, one after the other. And she's amazed. She's like, wow, these guys are either really bad or, you know, something, you know, this is the magic move that no one knows about. And then, after that, she goes to the coach saying, I don't get it. Like, you taught me one move and I've I've won, you know, I've taken down all these opponents.
And and he's like, yeah. The only def like, the only way to defend yourself from that move is to grab the the the other person by their left arm, which you don't have. You know? And and so I think it's a cool analogy, a cool story because we have weaknesses as people. We have faults. We are missing things. We might be incomplete in many ways. But, back in in a weird kind of funny way, with God's help
can turn to our advantage. When I read that scripture, weaknesses can become strengths, I don't always look at it as, oh, I can repent and I can fix my weaknesses. It's like, okay. I can own my weaknesses. And through my weaknesses, through obedience or trying to, you know, do everything I can, it's gonna be a strength. I can I can overcome the adversary? So Love it. I'm so glad you shared the story Yeah. Yeah. The analogy. So that's awesome.
Oh, well, and as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ? You always ask this, don't you? I do. You weren't ready for it? I see who listened to your podcast. No. It wasn't funny enough. But then I'd say the best leaders from my experience that have led me or been examples to me have
been the best followers. They're usually the the ones that are the humble ones, the ones that try and to be compassionate and, always providing, you know, some space to others. It's yeah. I think it's as simple as that. It's how can I, as a leader, be the best follower? And then don't worry too much about the leading bit. Just delegate more. Let others lead more. Don't take it too sir don't take yourself too seriously and just, yeah, just help others, you know, through your talents. And I think
those are the best leaders. It doesn't there's no I don't think there's any magic potion or magic formula to to become a a good follower of Christ. There's so many types of followers of Christ and so many different levels. It's just being a follower of Christ is good enough. I think. And that concludes this how I lead interview.
I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who could relate to this this experience. And this is how we how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guys doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And,
That's where great leadership's discover. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also, if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the how I lead segment, reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see see if we can
line them up. So, again, go to leading saints.org/contact, and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future how I lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast. Remember, go listen to Dan Dachhorst presentation about youth mentorship by visiting leading saints.org/ 14. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.