Have you ever had a loved one leave the church and your relationship becomes awkward? This is so common and so sad. I got the chance to interview the Packard family who have been down this road. Cindy and Blair Packard are orthodox believing parents and Josh, their son, and his wife have left the church. We came together to discuss their journey and it was amazing what they taught. They talked about the communications they regretted and how other siblings responded in positive and
negative ways. They learned how to pick up the pieces again, express love, carry on, and build a beautiful relationship. This has become a favorite in the Questioning Saints virtual library. You can actually gain access to this interview at leading saints.org/14. This will give you 14 days to watch the Packard's interview and many others related to helping individuals who begin to question their faith. Go to leading saints.org/14 and get access now.
So my name is Curt Frankem, and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and obviously the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast and that's really when it got some, traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization
and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors, PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that
you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about, sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, k. I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Leading Saints
podcast. This is an atypical introduction as if you're watching video, you can see I'm in my office, but we are painting. So, it's not ideal time or situation to, record an intro, but, nevertheless, I've got to get this interview out because you're gonna love it. It's with Joshua Dennis. Many of you who lived in Utah in the late eighties remember the story of a young boy who was lost in an abandoned mind and the miracle
of it, of him being found. Now, that Josh Dennis was found and grew up, went on a mission, and is now serving as a stake president, and they made a feature film, under the direction of Garrett Batty, our favorite film director, and it's coming out September 12th, and I wanna make sure we interview Joshua Dennis to, you know, get some of his leadership perspective, but also make you aware of this upcoming
movie that you've gotta go see. So on September 12th, it comes out in a good handful of theaters all across Utah and then later on in the month I believe September 26th nationwide in theaters all over the nation. We've got to support these movies so that we signal to Hollywood and the film industry that we want more faith based films. Just a wonderful
story. This will be a great youth activity, church activity, take a group to or just take your family to to watch this miraculous story that shows that miracles do that miracles still do exist and that, the faith of angels are carrying us through mortality more than we
more than we expect. So here's my interview with Joshua Dennis, stake president of Tails of Utah, long ago lost in an abandoned mind and, share some of his leadership principles and, just what he learned from that experience as a young boy that now impacts him as a state president. So here we go. Alright. Josh Dennis, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Thank you. Thank you, Kurtz. Great to be
here. Yeah. No. This is, one of the first of many interviews that you're you'll probably be involved in as you promote, the the movie Faith of Angels, which comes out in the fall of 2024. I don't have exact date, but because we're recording this early. But, I think the 2nd week in in September is when it'll it'll hit theaters, and it's a story about you. Is that right? It's it's about me, but it's about a lot of other people too. And That's right. That's right.
And maybe just give us the general framing of what what happened in your life, and and then how how did it end up becoming a a film? Yeah. So this took place a long time ago. It's actually 35 years this year in September when the movie will release. And so we were a group of, young men from our church congregation and went to a ghost town called Jacob City where there's lots of, abandoned mines in the area, and there's one in particular called Hidden Treasure.
So this was connected with Boy Scouts, back in 19 scout camp you're going on then? Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Young men of all ages, a big group. There was 30 boys, and 11 leaders that were there. And, so I was actually 10 years old when this happened, so I wasn't even boy scout age. But there was me and a couple other boys that were with our dads. So we tagged along with our dads and Was your dad a scout leader then? Or Yeah. He was a scout leader. So like I said, the boys of all ages from 11 up till 17
ish. And, the place that we went was really popular at the time. People were exploring this abandoned mine, pretty much every weekend when weather was okay and they could get up there. And so it wasn't, that big of a deal. It was just kind of this one of those things that you did, and it was an adventurous outing. And so we we got up there, and, the leaders were great. They were really really experienced, and they made sure they took
precautions. And they said, okay. You got everyone has to have a flashlight and go in as as groups. You have to be with a leader. And and there was different groups, going in and out of the mine, and I went in with my dad and 3 other Boy Scouts. And as we were venturing down, we met up with one of the other leaders who heard us coming, and he said, hey. We're
just up ahead. And a little bit of confusion happened when one of the boys didn't wanna keep going in further, so my dad offered to take him out. I was holding my dad's flashlight, pass it to him, and he went one way to the entrance. The other 2 boys followed the other leader down, and I was tagging along behind and caught left in the middle in the dark. Oh my goodness. And that's how I got separated. And at the moment, I mean, do you remember sort of the that the panic you
felt in that? You know, suddenly gets dark because all the flashlights are walking away. Right? I mean, do you do you have a clear memory of that that panic? I do. I have a clear memory. I just remember them going down the tunnel around a bend. It just kinda turned. And as they went around, the light just faded and disappeared, and I was left in that pitch black darkness. And and one of the miraculous blessings of this experience is what is that
there wasn't a panic. I didn't didn't have a moment of fear, and then I I stopped. I didn't keep going forward. I turned around. My dad was gone, so I was just left in the dark. And my first thought was to pray. And as a 10 year old boy, that was what my mother and my father taught us as kids. They just said you can pray always no matter where you are, and that was the first thing that came to my mind. And so I said a prayer, and I felt
calm. I felt okay. I felt peace, and I prayed to, please help me find my way out of here. Yeah. And so I started walking towards where I thought was, the entrance of the mind where we had come from, and I was following alongside the wall, feeling alongside it. And and after a while of walking, I just got to a point where I realized that I didn't know where I was, and I wouldn't be able to find my way out. And and so I I stayed in one place and waited to be rescued.
Wow. And do you remember, like, calling out for somebody? Or I mean, I I think that would be my initial thing is, you know, I'm gonna yell until they hear me. But Yeah. Yeah. It happened so fast, the separation, and I didn't even think to yell out. And, I was a quiet boy. I was little. You know, I I already felt like a tag along. All the voice seems so much bigger than I was, and so I didn't even think to yell.
But, eventually, as I was waiting for someone to find me, I would hear noise in the distance very, very faintly, and I would cry out for help. But by that point, my, voice was, like, hardly could speak. It was started to get dehydrated and, you hardly make a sound. But Now so this is in was it in September then? It did. Yeah. It happened in September. Okay. So it's it's still, you know, warmer months per se, but then when it gets night,
I mean, it it's gonna get cold. When you're out in the wilderness, you know, it's it's gonna be a cold night. Right? Yeah. No. It was actually the 1st day of fall. It was it got a little chilly in the evening and but the the interesting thing about mines is they maintain a constant temperature usually. And this mine I guess they're insulated, so they're cool. They're they're actually cold. And even in the summer, they they they
stay cool. So this one, what I've learned from it is it had about a 55 degree Fahrenheit temperature almost all the time, so even in the day and at night. So it was chilly, but it wasn't freezing. Yeah. It was just this cold. Dude, you weren't gonna necessarily freeze to that. You I mean, you'd be quite uncomfortable. Right? Yeah. And it's more the threat of dehydration that was probably that you were facing. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And then I and, obviously, I mean, there's no you're in a cave, so
it is it is pitch black. Right? There's no there's no even, like, you know, any any flash of of light or a subtle, light coming in. So do you remember just being in that pitch black and just constantly? Yeah. Yeah. It definitely leaves an impression. It's so dark that you you are waiting for your eyes to adjust and just doesn't happen. There's just nothing. It's that, you know, put your hand in front of your face, and you can't see it. Yeah. And and old miners, they used to have a
a phrase. They would say that the darkness of a mine is so thick that it can put out a match. Oh, yeah. Just, like, would suffocate the light. It just feels so consuming. Wow. Now you're in there for, several several days, and and, obviously, people we want people to see, faith of angels to get the full story because it is so I mean, it is a powerful, powerful story. Obviously, the spoiler is you do make it out, but, people need to go check out the movie to see just the the miraculous
process. And, obviously, it's it's called faith of angels. Right? So there's some angelic encounters in this that really brought you comfort and others comfort. Anything just generally you'd say to just the the miracle of it and how God showed up for you in such a tragic event. Absolutely. Yeah. There's so in in the scriptures, there's a passage by Paul who talks about peace that passes understanding, where it's a peace that is not doesn't make sense. It's not logical, but it's real.
And that's what I experienced. You would think that that would be your worst nightmare, right, being alone in the dark, in the mine, and those mines were are dangerous. You know, there's lots of danger, lots of things that could happen at cave in. There's old dynamite that they found in this particular mine. Just all sorts of things. You could be walking and fall down a shaft without any warning, 100 of feet, even up to, like, a 1000 feet. So very dangerous and scary,
but I didn't feel it. I didn't feel afraid. And, usually, when people ask me about this experience, they will ask the most common question was, oh, weren't you scared? Weren't you terrified? And and they're expecting, of of course you were. I would you know, that that's awful. And it comes as a surprise, but I have to be honest. I will say that I didn't feel my life was in danger. I didn't feel afraid. No worried. How do I get out of here? But and when are they gonna find
me? But I had this this overwhelming, optimism that I just have to wait, and someone's gonna come and they'll find me. Yeah. And I continue to pray, and and I just feel that that was, for me, the miraculous blessing was I didn't feel alone. I didn't feel afraid, and I just knew that they were gonna find me. Yeah. Did you do you remember that, I remember as young kid people telling me if you ever get lost, you know, stay where you
are type of thing. Did you find that the vast majority of time you were just in one spot sitting, waiting, or did you, you know, wonder if they were coming that you needed to move? Absolutely. Yeah. So I had the same experience growing up. That was, I think, a common thing that our parents would teach us. If you ever get lost, stay where you are. And the the second thing that I remember after that I could pray, I remember what my mom used to teach us is is that
very thing. And so, initially, I tried to find my way out feeling alongside and making my way through the darkness. But once I realized that I wouldn't be able to do it and I I didn't know where I was and where I had gone, that's was the thought, was stay where you are. And I just stayed in that same place. I didn't move after that point for the whole time.
Wow. Wow. Now in the film, Kirby Hayborne plays your father, and we we've had he's been on the podcast before, just the the awesome person, and he gave some of his leadership perspective. And so part of the story is just that I mean, I can't even begin to imagine this, the the grueling, journey that, you know, parents would go on knowing that their their sweet 10 year old boy is in this cave and nobody can find him. You know? And so, it it's such a
a remarkable story there. Anything like after the experience and, you know, hearing your your parents' side of the story, that comes to mind or they can add context to this all? Yeah. No. My parents suffered greatly. It was very traumatic for them. It appeared that I had just vanished into thin air. I just there was no trace, and it was so confusing. As the search began, they were scouring the mine in, like, every level. There was multiple levels and miles and miles of tunnel. And my dad,
he was just wracked with guilt. You know? Just all those questions like why, you know, why did I bring my son? What why did we go in this mine? And felt that it was his fault. And in that moment of separation, why didn't we you know? And I'd just keep him with me, all those kind of things. It was really, really difficult. And, of course, for my mother as well.
And and the the terrible thought of losing your child, they're they're lost, they're most likely dead, and that you would never know what happened. That was very painful. That they would just never know for sure. Yeah. Wow. So, and so you get out out of the cave and and grow up, and and you were raised in the church. I mean, pretty traditional Latter day Saint upbringing in in Utah. Right? Yes. Mhmm. Correct. And, anything, like, didn't, anything from those from just your faith development?
Like, after that experience, was this something that after a time you kinda you you remember it happened, obviously, but, you know, life goes on and you kinda it kinda fades, and you're not necessarily the boy who was lost in a cave once. Right? Well, yeah, that's that's interesting. That's, like, another part of the story. So the the the, being lost itself for me wasn't a very a difficult trial. It was it was, afterwards, the the amount of attention that I that I got was actually hard for me to
to to cope with a little bit. It was on the news when it happened just the day after, you know, reports of a boy got lost in the morning. National news. Right? Yeah. So definitely in Utah, it was for the whole time, it was on the news, and it got some attention nationally. And and then with the rescue, it was big news. And so we had a lot of people that wanted to talk to us, superporters coming over to our house,
constantly. And and when I went back to school, after recovering a little bit, I was just a different experience. And I was this quiet kid that nobody really knew, and all of a sudden, I was the boy that was lost in the mind. And and interestingly enough, I've I've been really surprised. Well, When I was younger, I was surprised
as a as a parent now. I'm not so much, but I was surprised that people still remembered what happened, that this experience took place even as years went on, even after a decade and 2 decades, and now 3 over 3 decades, people would still remember. And and so even years years later, people would say, oh, you were the boy that was lost in the line. Kinda was like, yes. That's that's me. So the the attention was was a little
difficult. I I, a a little bit of a funny experience with that is is as I got back home and was just fully expecting just to go on as normal, like, that was a strange experience. You know? Like, you know, I spent some time alone in a mind loss, and I'm grateful to be home. And I just fully expected life to go on as normal. But as the attention just persisted, I thought to myself, I can't wait until 10 years from now when everyone has forgotten this ever happened. And for me, 10 years as a 10
year old, that was my whole lifespan. So that felt like, you know, like, this is an eternity where someday no one's gonna remember this ever happened. And Mhmm. And so it's it's I chuckled to myself as I continue to to share the story. But but now as a parent, as an adult, I I certainly understand, or at least I can identify somewhat with with my parents, what they went through. The joy that other parents expressed for our family that, well, they found this boy.
It's it's so amazing and so joyous, and I can understand why it's it's and continued to capture the interest of people. Yeah. And now, you know, if you go back in time, tell your 10 year old self, yeah, they're gonna make a movie about you. Oh, great. You know? Oh, yeah. That was my worst nightmare as a 10 year old. Nice. I'm glad they I'm glad they waited a little bit before they jumped on the the screenplay here. But, and, so how did it come to be that,
the the movie? And and it's, written and directed by our mutual friend, Garrett Batty, who's a remarkable filmmaker. Many Latter day Saints know his work as, you know, Freetown and Saretoff Approach. So it's just a, like, master of storytelling and and filmmaking. That so how did that come to be? Yeah. Yeah. It's actually thanks to my wonderful wife. She's amazing, and she likes to do background acting,
as an extra and whatever she can. And so she actually volunteered to do that for the Book of Mormon videos, and so she's been in involved in that for a couple of seasons. And and, of course, she knows about this, experience. And she with her interest in movies, she's just always thought, oh, this would be such a great movie. You know? Someone could do something really great with this. And and so as she was working on the Book of Mormon video, she was asking questions
to people that she was working with. And, she met someone that says, you know, there there's someone that a friend of mine that might be interested. I'll can give you his information. You can reach out to him, and that person ended up being Garrett. And so they got in touch, and she told him the story, and he there was, some couple things about it that he just connected with him. And you can imagine as filmmakers, they get lots of pitches to
make movies. Everyone has an experience, and and they're wonderful experiences and and things, but they're limited in what they can do. They can't make everything. So but there was something about this that caught his attention, so he reached out and and started that process of of making the movie. Nice. And now, you have a cameo in the movie. Is that right? There's a moment that you appear on screen. Tell tell me the story behind that.
Yeah. Yeah. So, my wife was anxious to be a background actor, and she was excited for that opportunity. It's just something that she likes to do. And and, of course, Garrett was very gracious, and he invited us to participate to the, you know, the level that we wanted to. So I was able to go on set a couple of times, and so there's
2 days that I was up there. And so there's 2 different scenes where I'm in the background, and one of them is, when they had volunteer searchers looking for me on the mountain, and I'm in there looking for myself. Yes. And you even scream your name. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's very cool. Any anything else about, about the the film, that experience, or, that that we maybe should insert here?
Yeah. I think maybe the going back to the title of the film, Faith of Angels, that was the the thing that interest Garrett the most about the story. And what hap the the connection there is there for me, I could feel that peace. That just wasn't wasn't logical, didn't make sense, but there was a there was a a a peace that I wasn't alone, that I was being protected, that I was safe. And and one of the calming thoughts that I had was that I knew that God knew where I was.
Even though I couldn't see and I didn't know where I was, I knew that he knew where I was, and I prayed for him to send someone to rescue me. And, someone named John Skinner, who we did not know beforehand, he had a very strong prompting. He was away out of state on a trip, had a strong prompting. He needed to come home, comes home to find out there's a boy that's lost in a mind that he was very familiar with. And he just felt this relentless, need to to help, and he kept being
turned away. They saw him like, no. We got it under control, and he just wouldn't give up. And he just had this impulse to keep trying to help. He's he just felt like he could he could help find me. And so the the movie portrays very beautifully those spiritual promptings and that help that we get that we can't see. And I and I firmly believe that more often than not, that help from from ministering angels that are sent from God are most likely people connected to us in some way,
and the movie portrays that. And and so it shows John's connection to that and and him continuing to search, and my feeling of not being alone. And something that I said after I was rescued, I was laying on a a stretcher in the emergency room, and my mom and my dad, you know, gathered around me. And and I just in my little wispy, dehydrated voice, I I told my mom, I said, angels are with me. And I don't know why I said that. I don't it wasn't a conscious thing that
I was gonna tell her or anything. I just I I feel like that came out of my mouth as something that my mother needed to hear. She needed to hear me say that because she suffered and my father suffered so much. And they had just moments before I was rescued had accepted that I was gone and that I had died. And then there there I was alive and well, and so that was for her. She just will never forget that feeling of that. My my son was okay. He was he was watched over.
Yeah. That's so powerful. And and, obviously, that's a a big part of our theology is, you know, we we believe deeply in in our ancestors and angels around us that associate with us and maybe influence us in some way that I I I would imagine when we get the other side, we'll be shocked at just how how much they were involved in our lives here in mortality, and and, it'll be just a beautiful experience, I think, once we we we see the bigger picture.
Right? So Absolutely. So I would imagine did they I assume they closed off that that mine and and sealed it. Is that, you know, how long after your your rescue they did that? Or Yeah. It was very shortly after. In fact, there was part of the, like, controversy surrounding this experience was that the the search was gonna be called off after so much time went all went by, and there was talk that they were gonna seal it up and basically
felt like I wasn't inside. And so that was already being discussed while I would while the search was going on. But then after I was rescued, that that became a priority. The the mine was sealed off. And in fact, the governor of the state of Utah at the time, this prompted an initiative to to seal off mines around the state, and so they started doing that pretty aggressively. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. So, I guess we'll we'll fast forward your life a little bit. I mean, maybe give us
some some mile markers along the way. Did you, serve a mission? I did. Yeah. Yeah. I served a mission. I loved it. Served in Honduras. Cool. Learned Spanish. It was wonderful experience. Nice. And that was about 10 years after you you were lost in the mind. So, did your wish come true? Did most people had forgotten about it by that point, or did it still come up? Well, I actually have a a funny story as a missionary with that.
So to the that exact time frame, 10 years later, I was a missionary in Honduras, and we were, going to be watching general conference. It's actually for the first time that I was there live via via satellite because a lot of chapels, they just weren't equipped for that. And so it was an area where we could go to a stake center and watch general conference. And so I in the one of the sessions, I'm I'm there with my companion members from all around and watching dinner conference.
And and, sister, Virginia Jensen, who was a, church leader at the time, gave a talk, and she started her talk, sharing my experience. And she says, yeah, little Joshua Dennis, when he was 10 years old, he was lost in the in a in a in a pagan mine. And, you know, my my just my nature, I get embarrassed easily, and I'm just kind of shy. And I'm just, like, looking up and hearing her talk. I'm like, oh my goodness. She's talking about when I was lost in the mind. And I was like, well,
it's okay. Nobody knows about this, and it's fine. And so I just kind of was just listening to her talk. Just, you know, nobody nobody knew who I was because that this is that she's talking about me. Yeah. So you or your parents had no idea that that that your story was gonna be referenced? Or Oh, she did get yeah. She talked to my parents, talked to my mom, got permission and everything. And my mom had written written me a letter about it, but, like, the mail and stuff, it's kinda takes a
while to get there. And so I wasn't expecting it in that moment, and, and so she continues, gives her message, beautiful message. And then towards the end, she says, and remember little Josh Dennis, he's now elder Dennis, serving in Honduras, teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. There's a picture of me as a missionary, and everyone kinda, like, looked around, and they looked at me and, like, is that you?
And so I had to start over again and share the story multiple times over and over again with people for a while there. Oh my goodness. Are are they after that, are there any times in your life where the story kinda surprised you and resurfaced again? Or Yeah. Once in a while, I'll I'll get a phone call and ask to share it. And in fact, as when I came home from my mission, I, I've I realized the importance of sharing this
experience. You know, we have special stories in our lives, miracles, and for me, this was was a miraculous event. I believe that it was a miracle from god, and and so I've always accepted every opportunity to share it even though, you know, I'm I'm not the most talkative person maybe. But but I feel I feel it's a privilege to be able to share my testimony that God is there. He he loves us. He listens to our prayers,
and he blesses us. And and I and this particular story happened in a a very dramatic way, but we all have stories. You know, we all have experiences, and and, really, the the most important part about this story for me is is not about me, about the the boy that was lost. It was about those that search. And that's one of the the other beautiful things about the film that Garrett did really
well. I I loved his approach as he focused on the rescuers, and and that's was totally appropriate, you know, for them for them to be the the heroes because that they are the heroes, and they're my heroes. And and their example of searching for the one that's lost, I mean Yeah. It's it's amazing. And that you don't give up. You just keep searching and you keep searching and you keep searching, and and and so I I love that part of the story. And that's that's what I am most interested in sharing.
Yeah. For sure. And that's the thing with these stories. Right? You know, obviously, your natural embarrassment comes to the surface, you know, when you this in these experiences he's talking about. But these are remarkable miracles, and we glorify God when we when we share them because, obviously, God did this, right, with with the the tools of individuals and people involved, but it just glorifies the the miracles that God can
make happen. Right? Absolutely. Awesome. So, and then what after your mission, what did you do to establish a career? Yeah. So, got married. My wife, Joanna, she's amazing. And on what date did the boy in the mind story come up with your wife? With my wife. Oh, good question. You know, I'd have to have to think about that. It's alright. As we were getting to know each other, I shared this shared the experience with her so that I know I had this experience, and it was meaningful for me. And Yeah.
But, of course, afterwards, she learned a lot more with different, publications and things that's been written about it and things. But Yeah. We have 4 kids. They're awesome. My oldest is 17, Caleb, and Zachary's 15. Luke's, 13, and our daughter, Megan, she's 12, and they're awesome. We love them so much. Far as far as career, I, went to school, studied at the Salt Lake Community College in the University of Utah. Studied visual art
and design and painting and drawing. And, it's, just, actually, just barely before my wife and I got married, I started working for the church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints Yeah. And, work as a graphic designer. Cool. And, currently, I do work with, church magazines and on the for the strength of youth magazine and the gospel living app, and it's really fun. I love it. Nice. That is awesome. And so you're responsible maybe just for some of those layouts, or you do, like,
graphics or illustrations? Or Yeah. Yeah. The layout and the design and Cool. That's awesome. Do do you get to hide the CTR ring in the friend magazine? Oh, yeah. That's a fun job. That's gotta be a fun job. My kids love that, obviously. So very cool. And now you are currently serving as a stake president. You've been, in this role for just over a year. As, you know, with many stake presidents, there's it sort of is preceded by various leadership callings.
Is that has that been your case, or what's the story that led you to, being called as the stake president? Yeah. So since my wife and I got married, we've attended a Spanish speaking ward in our stake. And so that's been about 20 years almost. Oh, wow. And so part of that time, I served in the bishopric as a counselor and then eventually as a bishop of the ward. And then after that, I was called in to serve in the state presidency as a counselor for 2 years.
And then the state president I was I was serving with was released, and we were released. And new SIC presidency was called, and I got extended the call to serve as the new SIC president. Nice. And so being bilingual and having that that, Spanish ward, I mean, just you're able to serve those people just the same as everybody else in the state. Right? Yeah. And it's I love it. That's cool. It's the best. Any other are your counselors do they speak Spanish at all? Or
No. Both my counselors don't speak Spanish. I have, 2 of our our sexiest secretary and our clerk that speaks Spanish, their folks. And And we'll go through some principles here that you sent me as far as that have, helped you in your your service there. I'm I'm intrigued by just the the Spanish
dynamic of of your leadership experience. I I serve my mission in Sacramento Spanish speaking, so I have a special place in my heart for Spanish speaking or language wards in a you know, even though it may not be the the primary language of the area, you know, I think it's such a blessing when you have a, you know, a demographic of individuals who maybe speak a different language who can gather and and learn the gospel and and share testimony in their their native tongue.
Is there anything, like, unique about that ward? Or, I mean, how would you describe it as far as, you know, a Spanish speaking ward in Utah? Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a really good question. It's important to remember those things. Like, we we definitely strive for that ward to just be another ward in the stake. You know, that it's not different. But by by nature, it's there's some differences,
so those to the language barrier. But members in our stake do such a great job of reaching out and and actually speaking Spanish or English because our our word is quite bilingual. But there are some things that some unique challenges, you know, as a bishop. So you're dealing with members who have immigrated to the state. So they're coming from different country, different culture, different language, and they're trying to navigate those challenges and limitations,
and that can be difficult. And and and also just people being far away from home, sometimes they're here alone. There's no family members, so they don't have that support. So the ward you know, we talk about a ward family, but in a language unit with a lot of, members who have immigrated, it is really their family. It's the closest thing that they have to a family close by. And so that is really special, and that can be really, really unify the ward and and be a very great experience.
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, you know, one one experience you have is that, obviously, if you're in a in a ward in Mexico or, you know, in Peru, like, obviously, everybody's from Peru, generally speaking. Everybody's from Mexico. But in it's much more of a melting pot when you get Spanish speakers from Mexico, and then you have some from El Salvador. You know? And sometimes there can be some tension there
where you know? And we naturally sort of gather with our people, right, that, you know, cook the same food and, you know, the Mexican people like the spicy stuff and, you know, the empanadas for, you know, wherever, you know. And so, did did you feel that tension? Sometimes the the countries would sort of gather together or I mean, how do you how do you create some unity in that? Yeah. It it's it's not totally absent, but my experience hasn't been, that so much.
Mhmm. The word is is fairly small geographically and total number of members. And so I just think that, you know, has its challenges but also can be a benefit. And people are regardless of the country of origin, they're going through a similar experience Yeah. Where they're here, you know, without family, generally speaking, and and things. So that that unifies the word. But, yeah, there's sometimes there's differences in, you know, different accents, different words.
You know, vocabulary is is always fun because it's like, can you pass me that whatever? And they're like, what is that? Yeah. And so you learn the nuances of different vocabulary and then think things. But but it's been fun. Like, we've over the many years, I mean, we've done all sorts of fun cultural activities where it's just everyone from the words their their country of origin is represented with food and and traditional dance and things like that, and it's just a great time.
Yeah. That's awesome. And now the first principle you sent me is, is focus on Jesus Christ. And this has been I think, just generally speaking, this has generally been a a more intentional focus that most leaders are are trying to striving to do. But I guess maybe in practice, it's it's harder than you expect. So I'm just curious from your experience, how have you created a culture whether in your in that ward or in the stake as as far as focusing on Christ?
Absolutely. Yeah. For me, that's been the number one most important thing that we can do. Sometimes we'll have the experience where you'll you'll hear a talk or you'll hear a a lesson given or a prayer or testimony, and and the savior isn't mentioned. You know? And other than in the closing. Yeah. And so that's something that's a priority for us, and I and I'd love to see the the change in the in the church generally where that's not so much the case anymore
and it's getting much, much better. But so that's definitely a priority. Couple scriptures that have been helpful for me in maintaining that focus is I love the way that Alma describes that. In Alma 77, he he talks about, there's gonna be many things that come. There are many things to come, but there's one thing. He says this is one thing that's more important than them all, and that's that the the savior or the redeemer liveth, and he's gonna come among his people.
And I find that helpful to relate to leadership because there's so many things. I mean, there's so many things to do. There's so many things to know, and we're very busy. You know? The church has great programs. The great has the church has great resources, and there's so many things to talk about, so many facets of the gospel that are important. And I wouldn't wanna minimize any of them, but but we can say there's one thing.
There's one thing that's more important than them all, and that's that Jesus Christ came into the world, and he atoned for our sins, and he was resurrected. And so as long as we're putting that as number 1 and we make sure that everything else is an appendage to it, as Joseph Smith wonderfully said, then we're gonna be in the right place. We're gonna be focusing on the right things. Yeah. That's powerful. Really powerful. And the next principle is be the person
you want others to become. Maybe unpack that for us. So I I think back in my time as a youth, and my leaders had a big impact on me. But if I were to try to share something that they taught me, I would it would be hard. I don't remember a lot of lessons that they gave. I don't remember specific teachings. You know, maybe generally, you know, you can think of, like, oh, they taught us to pray and read the scriptures, and and that's important.
But I I mostly remember how they were, the kind of the the men that they were. They were good men that with that gave good examples, and so what they did was more important than what they said. And so, of course, it's important to teach. We're teachers, and we need to teach the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and and we do that with words. But as as we we say, you know, actions speak louder than words. You know, the the words are hollow if they're they're not shown by example,
and that's what Christ did for us. You know, he taught his gospel, but he lived it. You know? You read the the Sermon on the Mount, love your enemies, you know, turn the other cheek, and do good to them that persecute you. And and he didn't just say it. He did it under the the most difficult of circumstances. So so the best way to teach, I believe, and the best way to lead is to be the person that you want other
people to become. So whether it's parenting or in work or with church responsibilities, just live those principles. Be that person. So if you want people to be kind and nice and calm and treat people with respect, then you be a kind, nice person that's respectful, and just do it by by modeling the behavior. Be that person, and that will actually be more powerful than telling people to do that. Yeah. Which segues great into your next point,
principles. When when you don't know what to do, which explains a lot of my leadership, when you don't know what to do, be loving and kind. And that's really good sort of baseline, right, for leaders. Yeah. Absolutely. There's so many times we don't know what to do. Yeah. So true. I mean, you just you just you don't know what to do. And so far in in my time serving as a leader in the church, I have never felt regret for being too loving and too kind. I
just haven't had that experience. I've never thought, I just I shouldn't have been that kind. I shouldn't have been that loving. But on the flip side, when there's been times of regret when I think, oh, I could've I could've handled that better. I wish I would've done this instead. It always comes down to be more loving, be more kind. And Yep. So there's there's times as a leader where we're gonna need to teach truth. We we we always teach truth, but sometimes this can be a hard a hard truth.
But you do that with love. You speak the truth with love. You show grace and truth. Like the saver, he was full of grace and truth. So always be loving and kind. And so if you don't know what to do, it's better not to overreact. Just just be loving and kind, and that will help you know what to do, how to handle a situation. Really helpful. Really helpful. I'm curious now that you're about a year
into this assignment as a state president. I'm just curious, like, reflecting back on that year, what do you remember as far as just, like, finding your footing in that calling or, you know, most all the a lot of these callings, even though maybe you've been a bishop or, you know, in other leadership roles in the past, you really can anticipate maybe the the experience that it's like, right, when you're actually in the seat trying to, you know, administer the gospel through that leadership.
So anything come to mind as far as just, how you handled that 1st year, what you learned, what what worked, what didn't? Absolutely. A a tremendous blessing that I've received is to be able to serve with as a counselor to previous leaders and to be able to see their example and and understand, you know, what is it that they did and their their mentorship. So before serving as a bishop, I had been a counselor to 2 previous bishops, and so that was invaluable.
I I think back on that experience, and I think, wow. If I if I were extended the call to serve as a bishop without ever serving in a bishopric, without having that close relationship with the bishop and seeing what they did, that would have been tremendously hard for me. That would have been very, very difficult. But I had that mentorship, and that was really invaluable. I served as a council on the state presidency 2 years before this call,
and so that was extremely helpful. Got to know the state president and and meet with him every week and and saw, you know, how he what he did, and and he was so great about teaching us how to do the calling and do and the the responsibilities that you have. So that was very important. So, I know that not everybody has that blessing beforehand. Sometimes they're just it's comes out of you know, it's a brand new thing, and and that that's that's difficult. But that was extremely helpful.
Something some advice that I received, as I was set apart, or extended the calling and and set apart, was by president, Pearson. He's the Utah area president. So he presided at our state conference when this change happened, and he shared something with me that was very helpful. He he said, this calling is not something that the Lord is doing to you. This is something that the Lord is doing for you, and
that's a simple teaching. It's it's simple, but it totally changed my mindset because, previously, I'd always thought, like, I am willing to serve and sacrifice, and I'll I'll I'm willing to do this. You know? It was something that that was more more happening to me, but I was willing to do it. You know? I'm willing to make the sacrifice. But he made it very clear, and I could definitely feel it, and I feel it now, that this is something that the Lord is doing for
you. This is a blessing. This is a gift. Your calling is a gift that is given to you, and it's a gift for your children. It's a gift for your spouse. It's a gift for your whole family. And that attitude adjustment for me has been very powerful because it's as I I look at it with gratitude, and it's busy. There's a lot of things that we have to do, and there's things that I need to do in my calling that I wouldn't normally have to do and I wouldn't normally want to do, but
it's a gift. It's a gift from God to me. And I try to, you know, help others in what I can, but but, primarily, it's been a gift for me. It's something he's doing for me and for my family.
And a lot of times, the the family dynamic can be the hardest part where you feel like taking dad away from the home and your and things like that, but having that change of mindset that this is also a gift for your children, it's a gift for your spouse, to involve them in your calling to the extent possible and help them be blessed by this opportunity to serve. And so one of those ways is is one of those important points for me is be the person that you want them to become.
Model being a disciple of Jesus Christ by serving faithful in the church. You know, model that behavior and let them see the blessings that you are receiving. Talk to them about spiritual experiences. Get them involved. When you visit someone, take one of your children or go with your wife or your husband, whatever calling you might have. So involving the family and and re recognizing that this is something the Lord is doing for you. It's not something he's doing to you to to torture you or to
to punish you. It is a gift. It is a gift, and it is a blessing. Yeah. And there are those, those weeks or weekends or months or where you kinda slip into the burden mode. Like, this is such a burden. When is this over? How many more months? How many more years? Right? And so I think that's a just a really helpful framing there. So I'm curious to know, like, just sort of pivoting back to your story as a boy being lost in the mine. Obviously, it was a miraculous rescue, and
not everybody gets that rescue. Right? And, of course, we know that there's purpose in all things. And and, someday, hopefully, we'll understand the tragedy that happens to some people or those that they don't get the the rescue party. They get to go to a funeral. You know? Is that is that do you have maybe
a perspective on that? Or, I mean, as you especially as a leader, as you see so many, you know, experience tragedy that seems to not have that miracle, What what perspective could you share there? Oh, that's yeah. That is so hard. That's something that I've been very mindful of, because not every story has a happy ending. And and our family was blessed with that happy ending, but that doesn't always happen.
And, if I could mention maybe a connection there, a thought that I've had, we before we started recording, we mentioned a mutual acquaintance. Yeah. The Andersons, we'll give them a shout out. So Yeah. Yeah. And I and I and I don't wanna share anything too personal of Yeah. About their family. But, so when I was 10 when this happened, I had a friend that was their son named Brody, and he actually died just 2 months before I was lost. Wow. So same age, 10 years old, 10 year old boys.
He was sick. He was had an illness as a child, and it affected him his whole short life. And and his parents had prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed for him to have healing, to be well, to live, and he died. And as a and as a 10 year old, that was my first experience of knowing someone personally Yeah. And being my age, dying. And I was at his you know, remember that, his funeral and everything, and that was,
Yeah. I was there too. I remember, seeing his little body in the gasket in a baseball uniform, if I'm if I remember right. I mean, just so innocent. You know? Just heartbreaking. Yeah. And so for my for for Brody's mom, she could identify with my mother and what I was what she was going through. Like, her son probably has died and will never be found. But then when I was found, miraculously, those questions surfaced of why did Josh 10 year old Josh get to live and 10 year old Brody not?
And I don't have an answer. I don't know. Yeah. But, yeah, it's it's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. But what what Brody's mom would express is that with the with the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ that we have, is that in time, there's there's comfort, and we know that there's unanswered questions. But the lord knows us all, and it's in the end, it's it's gonna be okay. Yeah. Yeah. The miracle is still there for all of us with through Jesus. Right? And, what he did for us and what how
he made things eternal, even relationships. It's awesome. It's awesome. Well, I appreciate that. I know that's it's just, you know, that's a I think encompasses leadership is there's never you know, you wanna go to your your bag of tricks and and pull out the perfect answer for every scenario or problem, and that's usually seems like more often than not, there's never a perfect answer or a reason other than that just that broader plan and perspective of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and what he
did for us. You know? So I appreciate you exploring that that perspective with me. Any other thought, principle, leadership experience that you wanna squeeze in here before we wrap up, or how'd we do? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Maybe just one last connection to this experience that's been very helpful for me and and going back to that first principle of of focusing on Jesus Christ. One of the the the thoughts that I've had regarding this experience is is that I you know, one one boy out of 30 was lost.
The the the scout leaders, the the church leaders, they didn't go home with 29 boys and say, well, that was pretty successful. You know? 29 made it home. That's not bad. Right. We don't feel that way when when someone's lost, you know, physically and their life is in danger. Everything stops, and you go and search. You know, you leave the 99, and you go after the 1. And this experience is is like Luke chapter 15 played out in real life.
It's the lost sheep. It's the lost piece of silver or the prodigal son, and you just keep searching and you keep searching. And as a leader, that is so important. Just don't ever give up on anyone that you're ministering to, anyone that you're serving. Don't ever give up. Just keep going after them. Just keep searching and keep searching. And and in the end, really, the the rescuer of us all is is our savior, Jesus Christ. You know, we're all like a little boy lost in a mine.
And if it wasn't for him, we would be in that darkness forever. But it's because of him that we're rescued and we're saved, and so we get to participate in his search and rescue. He's the rescuer that saves us, and we get to help him. And so that would be, I think, my call to to church leadership is just to join his team, join his search and rescue effort, and go out and look for those that are
lost, and don't give up on them. Just keep searching and keep inviting them back, and and you'll see miracles like like we experienced. And that concludes this how I lead interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense, and share it with somebody who
could relate to this, this experience. And this is how we, how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guys doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, That's where great leadership's discovered. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And, also, if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the How I Lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leading scenes.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see if we can line them up. So, again, go to leading saints.org/contact, and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future how I lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember, go to leading saints.org/14 to hear the Packard family's experience of when loved ones leave the church. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.