Anthony Sweat has easily become one of my favorite BYU professors to interview. He's been on the podcast several times and he also has a remarkable presentation about ambiguity of doctrine in our Questioning Saints virtual library. He discusses healthy and unhealthy ways we approach doctrine, how to help others reconcile doctrine they find difficult to believe, especially when we don't know much
about it. You can watch professor Sweat's entire interview in the Questioning Saints library by going to leading saints.org/14. This will give you access for 14 days at no cost to watch this presentation. You'll be better prepared as a leader when you do. So my name is Kurt Frankem and I am the founder and executive director of Leading Saints and obviously the host of the Leading Saints podcast. Now I started Leading Saints back in 2010. It was just a hobby blog,
and it grew from there. By the time, 2014 came around, we started the podcast, and that's really when it got some, traction and took off, 2016. We became a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we've been growing ever since. And now I get the opportunity of interviewing and talking with remarkable people all over the world. Now this is a segment we do on the Leading Saints podcast called How I Lead, and we reach out to everyday leaders. They're not experts, gurus, authors,
PhDs. They're just everyday leaders who've been asked to serve in a specific leadership calling, and we simply ask them, how is it that you lead? And they go through some remarkable principles that should be in a book, that should be behind a PhD. They're usually that good, and, we just talk about, sharing what the other guy is doing. And I remember being a leader just simply wanting to know, k. I know what I'm trying to do, but what's the other guy doing? What's working
for him? And so that's why every Wednesday or so, we publish these how I lead segments to share. Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Saints podcast, and I am still in my home office for those that are watching via video, and it's still being painted. And that's week not because I haven't addressed it in a week. It's that I recorded this episode and the previous episode in the same day. So, my lighting's off. I mean, this is terrible. You have to slide here, but, hey, that
doesn't matter what I look like. What matters is we get good quality content on the Leading Saints podcast, and that's what this is. You guys, last week's episode that you heard, so good. Right? Devin, Pope in South Side Chicago, which is so good. Right? And this episode with Becca Wolf in Spokane, Washington, I'm just like I just sit here in awe. Like, I'm so honored that I get to be the person that that organizes, talks into the mic, asks questions about these beautiful leadership experiences.
So Becca talks about her journey, not only her journey to find leading saints and, crying in the celestial room and a blessed temple worker. I don't know who you are out there, but bless your heart. A blessed temple worker saw her crying in the in the temple, in the slasher room and said, you know anyway, she gets in the story, but it leads to her recommending leading saints.
And then Becca tells her story about 6 months prior to being called as Relief Society president, sits her husband down and says, I think I'm leaving the church. Okay? These these stories just are full of God's glory. When 6 months later, you know, she talks about that journey. She's in a place where she accepts this calling as Relief Society president, and her faith, her, man, her testimony is just so beautiful. This this is this is what Zion's about.
This is what the gospel's about. You're gonna love this episode. Share it. You you must. I implore you to share this with, a fellow or another Relief Society president. They kinda hear it. Another member of the church. I mean, everybody needs to hear it. So here we go. Here's my interview with Becca Wolf from Spokane, Washington. Alright. Becca Wolf, welcome to the Leading Zanes podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me here. Now this started with an email you sent me,
which is Yep. I guess there's a story behind it. Maybe let's just start there. What's the story behind the email that you sent me? Yeah. I had never well, I got I was released as a Relief Society president and called as Young Women's president, like, right back to back Wow. And, felt, really, really, really overwhelmed by being called a young woman's president and also so sad about being released as a really steady president.
So I was in the temple, like, in the interim between, like, I knew, but no one else knew. So I was still acting as really steady president, but knew that the roles were changing. And I was in the temple one morning, and I ended up being in the slushroom by myself except for one little worker, and I was sobbing. And, the worker came over and was like, do you need someone to come talk to you? And I first, like, said no, and then I was like, I mean, sure. Why not?
So, the temple matron came and talked to me, and, yeah, she just, you know, was so sweet and told me lots of things, but she had mentioned your podcast and said, I just listened to a podcast about a bishop, who was grieving, and it was so great, and it's normal to grieve when you are released from these callings. And so then over the next series of days, I spent so much time on your podcast because I just felt so much pressure from so many different
angles. And so then I wrote you a thank you note and was super surprised to get a response. I know that you were busy, and then now we're here. So Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate that. And it means a lot to just know that this work we do, you know, makes a difference in an individual's life. Definitely did mine. And I love hearing it shared in the celestial room. It definitely was. Yeah. Leading Face Podcast, straight in the celestial room. Yeah.
That's great. Now going back to that, when you say you were and the episode series, it's a 2 part episode series that, we put together. It's called when being released hurts, and we'll link to it, of course, in the show notes. When you said that you were I forget the word you used. Sad or Grieving. Grieving. Right? Like, like, grief. Like, maybe go into that more. What what was it you were grieving or hurting about?
Was it the, like, resentment? Was it the feeling that you didn't do enough or, you know, regret? Or how would you articulate that? I loved being really steady president. So it was just sadness. I, like, you know, I I moved into this ward and was called I we moved in we moved to to Washington, and I was called a few months afterwards to be the early seg president, so I knew no one. And much of my time in those two and a half well, you know, 3 years were was spent just getting to know people.
So I felt like I I mean, yeah, I just felt like I had just loved these sisters with all of my heart, and suddenly, like, it was just gone. And I gonna anticipate I mean, I anticipated being in this calling for a little bit longer than that. You know, my bishop joked often, like, I'm keeping you until I get released. And and, you know, I I knew that that was just a joke, but I just thought I had more time.
But about a month leading up to to being called, I was in the temple again and got this really strong revelation that I was going to be released as released as president and called as an woman's president. So you think I'd be prepared, but I just wasn't. I wasn't prepared to lose that mantle, I guess, and I I didn't feel regret. I felt like I gave it my all. I just loved it. I loved it so much. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's great. And I I wanna normalize
just that experience more. You know, that's why we did that series and and thought having this conversation, that, you know, this it's not like people shouldn't or, you know, that your bishop or other leaders should have done more so that you didn't feel this way. It is what it is. Right? It's just mortality, and that's how you felt, and you gotta that's how your mind and body was processing it, and that's okay. You know?
It does make me think of, you know, as a as a bishop, which I think, you know, really say present is very similar to that bishop role, as far as the heaviness of the calling at times and the responsibility. You know, as a bishop, you sort of have this idea of, like, about 5 years. You know? And Yeah. Everybody's sort of on board with that or, and obviously, it's different for maybe different areas. But, how helpful is for maybe a bishop or somebody to say, hey. This is what I'm
thinking. I'm thinking maybe in the next year that we should start thinking about that. You know, just sort of giving you a heads up just so it doesn't sneak up on you too much. Because I think that that just adds to doesn't get rid of the, the the processing, the morning, or whatever, but it maybe will it'll be anticipated more and prepared for it that way. So yeah, very interesting. Very interesting. So I think Mhmm. I I just I think my I think my bishop, I think he struggled with the change
himself. Like, I I think it took a lot of I mean, when he called me as young woman's president, he was in tears because I think he he tried so hard to know if that was the right thing to do as well. And I think God gave me that, clear knowledge in the temple month earlier that the transition was going to happen, almost to be like, hey. Like, I actually think this is the right thing to do, you know, but it was still just hard.
I I don't think anything I don't think if I had had a year to prepare, it it would have been any less hard. Change is hard. When you put your whole heart into something, it's just gonna be hard. Yeah. It's just hard. I think that's a great way to to someone out there. So now you're in Spokane, Washington. Mhmm. So pretty, I mean, pretty solid area as far as the church goes. There's members around, but Yeah. You know? So anything else, and we're gonna talk about
your time as Relief Society president. And and when did that when did that when were you released as Relief Society president? I was released in July, so it's only been k. 3 months. Couple months? Okay. And, how long were you the release study present? 2 over two and a half years. Okay. So somewhere in between there and 3 years.
Yeah. Okay. Pretty typical for sure. Yeah. And anything about your the your ward, the demographics, the how it's laid out that would be worth mentioning as, before we launch into a discussion about that that experience? I mean, our ward is super long and skinny. It's like it's like not even I think it's like 2 or 3 blocks wide, and then it, like, it's just, like, 20 miles long. And and so that house is Holy cow. Like, my house is at the top on the south side, and then it goes
all the way down to the north. And and the further, it just it just creates a a different socio, economic, you know, standpoint from all the different places. Spokane itself isn't super diverse from, like, a race standpoint, but, we definitely had, you know, low income, and we had, people that had a lot of money. So
Yeah. Cool. Very cool. So I wanna go back to you mentioned this, sort of as a side note leading up to this discussion that your journey on, you know, being called as a research president, a little bit atypical, but maybe not so much. I don't know. We'll find out and see who resonates with it. But you said about 6 months prior to being called as research president, you had a very serious conversation with your husband as far as what would happen if you left the church. Like so,
there there's a lot to unpack there. So where does that where does, like, your how would you sum up just your faith journey story, that got you to a point of having that conversation with your husband? Yeah. So, you know, I grew up in church. I have super wonderful parents. My mom actually her name's Shauna Edwards. She writes a bunch of primary music. Oh, wow. And my dad, like, worked in the church for 10 years. He created gospel library and LDS tools. Like like, I grew up with, like, parents
that really truly believe. So, and and that was a blessing. I married a husband who's very similar. Like, he he just has this strong faith. I'm a questioner at heart, and I question a lot of things, and that wasn't a problem until I was on my own. And as in my twenties, I just started, like, questioning a lot of the things in the church, and I didn't really know where to
turn, and it felt lonely. And, so, you know, I I have a really close relationship with Landon, my husband, and we talked ad nauseam about all this stuff, but kind of a series of being on Instagram a lot and, COVID happening, you know. We moved a bunch, a little bit of some mental health, maybe. I just slowly started to feel I I just didn't believe. And I remember being in Kentucky and sitting in sacrament meeting right after COVID.
It was March of 2021, and we hadn't been to church for almost a year. And we I was sitting we had gone back to church. I was sitting in sacrament meeting, and we were singing and taking the sacrament. And I was like, I don't even what in that? What is this? What are what am I doing? Mhmm. And I read I happened to turn open.
I don't remember if I chose to go to the article of faith or I just turned open, but I I read that first article of faith, we believe in God, the eternal father, and in his son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. And I was like, I I don't even know if I believe in God. I'm like, I don't even know. So within a couple of weeks, my sweet bishop in Kentucky, he Bishop Parker I mean, we were there for 6 months. Like, when church was open, we were there.
He gave both of us callings. I don't know why he did that, but it was really sweet of him to do that. And he visited us, and and I he I had never opened up about my faith. But 2 weeks before we moved, he asked if he could give me a blessing just randomly. So we went into his, office, and and he told me like, he gave me a blessing. And in the blessing, he told
me 2 things. He told me to share my doubts with people, like, to be really open about it, and he said to hold on to the drops of faith that I had. And so then we moved from Kentucky to Washington and was really overwhelmed, and we were in this new community, and I thought, this is dumb. I like, I just need to decide now because I don't wanna start in this community. It's hard to leave the church. If I'm gonna leave the church, I'm gonna leave the church before I
meet all these people. Which is very typical to to lead the church with a move like a lot of people. That happens with a lot of people. Yep. Which makes sense. Like, you have to fall in love with the people, and and while that's a that's a good part, and a good reason to be in a faith, a church community, It it should not be the reason. Like, you should be there for Jesus and God. So I just said to Landon, like, I
I don't I don't feel this. I don't believe this, and I don't know if there's a God. I don't, Maybe I should stop going. And always in his wisdom, he's like, okay. Great. And I was like, are you gonna be mad at me? Like, is our marriage gonna be affected? And he just said, no. What? Like, I love you, and that's what you need to do. Great. And I'm still gonna take the boys to
church, so, like, good luck. And, I mean, it's obviously much more personal than that, but there was never this, like, what are you gonna do to our family? Like, you'll you'll hurt us so much. And and I think that he gave me the freedom in that moment to be like, okay. What do I want? I have all this freedom, and I have all the love and support from him. So what do I wanna do?
So, yeah, I was talking to a non member, a Christian friend of mine, and I asked her how, what she felt like her church did really well, and she's like, we know who God is. And so I said, how do you know who God is? And she said, we read the old testament, and you can get to know God in the old testament. And if you wanna know who God is, read the old testament. And I said, okay. I wouldn't expect that. That's like, well, the old testament? Alright. You're good. I know. I was like, okay.
I will do that. So I decided I'm just gonna start reading the Old Testament, and, I I think that those few things helped like, I I felt like I had this desire to figure out if God was real and if He was there, and, and that was kind of the start off of, like, you know, I'm not gonna leave yet. I'm gonna just start with something so basic. But it was kind of in that moment that I got called as Relief Society president. So I started off with a pretty fragile testimony.
Yeah. So I wanna go back a little bit, a few things you mentioned. You mentioned Instagram, and this is something I've got I've got a closet full of soap boxes that I could stand out about. Social media, Instagram, especially, like, the negative impacts on this in the most subtle ways, especially, for women.
Yeah. But tell me, like because, you know, the way I would frame is that, like, I have no problem with individuals, like, asking questions, like, investigating things, like reading reading really stuff that, you know, that's sort of raw and real and especially related to church history or theology or
doctrine or whatever it is. But the nature of, like, social media or TikTok or Instagram or reels or, you know, all these things, like, the way that information is communicated that way is just generally just in a negative way that it can really stimulate doubts more than other platforms. Right? So, I mean, anything you would add to that? Am I off my rocker? Or what what comes to mind when you say Instagram?
I just I mean, for some reason, I think my spirit are always knew that Instagram wasn't good for me, so I never had it to begin with. But in a for some reason, actually, I started I started doing come follow me chats with my boys, on and I would put up the little chats on Instagram. And I was honestly doing it to teach my boys the gospel. So it was, like, in 2018, 2019, and
I I would just do that. But what ended up happening is I would post it, and then I would just find myself on on Instagram for a while. And then So just to be clear, you would, like, have a conversation with your boys and then share it on Instagram? Or No. I would just like I I would kinda just map out, like, this is the 3 questions I'm gonna ask my boys this morning about Oh, okay. This scripture. And I put it on, like, a 5 a 3 by 5 card. I took a picture of it,
and I put it on Instagram. It was very, like, informal. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely wasn't doing it to, like, become something famous. I just wanted a place to keep it, and Instagram is a nice a nice place to keep things. Yeah. But it I found myself once I started that, just being on Instagram, which I I, you know, I was like, well, I'm doing something good. So what's the problem? And then it's just really easy to
find people that think like you. So I had doubts about a lot of things in the church, and you can just find someone else that has a doubt that way. And I just I I could not I could not deny, like and I even to this day, I I don't really go on Instagram because I I can see my testimony slide every time, because I can find someone that shares their doubts or shares why they don't believe anymore, and I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. That makes sense. I that's hard, you know, I don't
Yeah. I don't believe. So I really had to I really had to get to this point where I had to decide where are my sources gonna come from. And and I know that often it's like, well, you should go to the church website or you should go to the scriptures, and I've always read my scriptures, so I was and I was reading the old testament, but I I had my sources be the people that I knew loved me the most, you know, my husband, my parents.
One time I was talking to my brother Gary, and I was like, Gary, I don't believe, and he said, Becca, how long have you been a member? I was like, 22 years. And he's like, okay. Take 22 years. Take 22 more years to decide if you don't believe, and then leave. And I was like, that's it. Interesting. Yeah. That's cool. Take I can take my time on this. So I just I don't know. Instagram just
Yeah. Maybe it's for maybe it really helps some people, but I just found that when it came to my testimony being on there was really detrimental. Yeah. That's interesting. It's a fascinating discussion. I'm probably not expert enough to really delve into it. But and and I'd also never wanna be the leader or the husband or the friend who would who would say, don't read that, like, because it's anti Mormon state. Right?
But at the same time, I would say, like like, ask all the questions and, sure, read all the contrary opinions and perspectives, but maybe don't do it on social media. Right? Even even like a YouTube dynamic because it's just the way it's designed, algorithms, it kinda can it leads to, like, rumination on some of these things, and and the algorithm just beats you over the head with more more more more more. Right? And Right. There's
not a lot of space. And so I love how the what you said earlier of I I you decided to go to those. The primary resources would be those that those individuals who loved you. Like, I think that's powerful. Really powerful. So Yeah. And I think it makes sense that people turn to social media because and this isn't anyone's fault, but we we still are working on having a church where we can talk about the things we're struggling with. Yeah. And and and that just takes a lot of vulnerability.
And I think that it's easier to be vulnerable on Instagram. And so if we could create these church houses where someone can come in and say, hey, you know, my child's gay, and they're leading the church, and this is really hard for me, without feeling like you have, like, a bunch of judgment coming your way, you know. And I I do think we're
getting better at that. I just think that it makes sense that people turn to social media, but I I learned in my own experience that turning to the people I knew loved me and having those discussions with them was was the right place for me. Yeah. That's powerful. Because on social media, they're willing to have any conversation. Right? And they don't know you. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They don't know
you. Yeah. That's powerful. So would you say is it just sort of sit hearing a summary of your your faith journey there? Was there, like, some people frame it like the dark night of the soul moment where you just question everything, like, it and it was just this emotional, like, wreck wreckage of of life and belief, or it seemed like maybe more subtle. You sort of dip in and out, and you weren't sure, and then you thought you were sure. But yeah.
I think that I had to my husband always talks about faith not being a perfect knowledge, and I and how I had to choose it. And he was like, Becca, you just you've gotta just choose a direction. Like, stop sitting in this unknown. Yeah. Stop being like, I don't know. Just and and, you know? And Yeah. And that's just so hard. I don't even have I don't know. It's just always been settled. I actually think I will always have questions, and I think my faith will always be
something I have to fight for. Yeah. I don't think that and I think that's okay. I I Yeah, absolutely. I'm grateful for that now because I feel like I can relate to a lot of people. I feel like I'm I'm now at a place where I'm like, you know what? I can see all the good that comes from this. And if this is the fight I have to have, then I'll just keep fighting it.
Mhmm. Yeah. And would you say and maybe this doesn't matter, I believe, belaboring the the point, but, was there a certain was it, like, church history issues for you, theology, social issues? I mean, was there a thing that really was more difficult, or was it just everything? I mean, it was probably everything. I think I have this, like, giant heart who loves everybody, and I think I also can see people on the outside.
And, I want to defend the outsider, and so, you know, I don't I don't understand how our LGBTQ friends manage faith and and their and their love. You know, like, that's a really hard thing for me. And and I think for a while, there was some church history stuff, but, I don't know. Landon's always like, you gotta just be kind to the past. Like, we don't know what it's like. And similar to, like, Instagram, like, they don't
know me and I don't know them. So to judge these people that are so far back that I don't have really strong relationships with, that's probably not fair. So Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I think it was kind of a mixture. And it was there's probably some mental health in there too. I just, for a long time, couldn't feel him. So that felt frustrating.
Yeah. Man, that's such a to me, in my opinion, that's such a healthy way to sort of frame everything because even from a, like, a orthodox leadership standpoint, we wanna be like, oh, Becca has questions about, like, Joseph Smith's polygamy. So I'm gonna get her the answers, and that'll fix it. When in reality, it's like, well, yeah, you might get on the answers, but it might be a tough mental health day or, you know, there's just so obviously, as humans, we're complex,
you know, meat machines here. You know? So, in in yeah. I always really cringe when anyone says something like, well, they left the church because they stopped doing the things. Like, they stopped reading their scriptures and they stopped praying. And I felt like I was doing those with all my heart. Yeah. And, you know, the the adversary is strong. Like, who's to say he can't get into the person that's reading their scriptures and
saying their prayers and trying their hardest? Like, I think sometimes we forget that even the people that come from the strongest stock who are the leaders, like, of course, the adversary is gonna try to get them. Mhmm. You know? Why why why would he? So I I don't know. I I really I really think that there has to be, like, a a tender conversation with someone that is struggling. Like, you know, what are you doing to try to strengthen your relationship with God? Yeah. And and I'm sorry.
And you take as long you take 22 years. You take 22 years to figure this out, and I'll be here on the other end. Yeah. Alright. So let's step back into your, like, your leadership journey, your narrative here that okay.
So 6 months prior to being called the release site president, you have this discussion and, you know, flash forward 6 months, you're in the bishop's office, and he's extending this call, and, like, now you're super on board and just happy to do it, or, like, how did you navigate that with your with your faith journey? Yeah. So, I mean, I maybe I should make it clear that this bishop had no idea where I was with my faith, because we now are in a new ward with a
new bishop. He comes over to my house. We Landon and I think he's coming over to get to know us. Like, we're still new in the ward. We actually forgot he was coming, and we went to bed. And then I was like, wait. Landon, didn't Bishop text you and say that he wanted to come over? And he was like, oh, yeah. So we, like, run downstairs and turn on our lights and pretend like we're we're, like, ready for him and have
been preparing for him. And then, yeah, he just was like, I I don't really know why, but you're super young, and you just moved into this ward, but god wants you to be the Relief Society president. And, you know, I I think people say this all the time, but that calling, I I mean, it probably I know. It probably saved my life. It probably saved my kids' life. You know? Maybe I would have maybe I would have found my way back, but it definitely sped up.
It it definitely gave me the opportunity to speed up what I was hoping for, which was to know to know God. So, yeah, I he just called me, and I didn't sleep. I ever again. So Yeah. Yeah. That's Did did you say in that initial meeting, did you bring up these struggles at all, or you just No. Actually, I got called to I I got called to speak in state conference a couple of months later, and I I gave a talk,
that really, like, outlined this. It I I was called to speak in the leadership session, and I felt really prompted to share my story. I mean, bishop Parker told me to share my story, so I shared that story. And, it was 13 minutes, and I, like, watched my bishop's, like, face like, the blood go out of his face. He's like, I I I called the Relief Society president who didn't have a testimony. Like, what? So, I mean, I know he wasn't, like, upset or anything, but that's when he found
out. Yeah. Interesting. And but in that moment, like, you felt like you'd come to a place that again, you like you say, you probably have questions the rest of your life or be in that state. But, you felt like I can do this, you know, with integrity knowing that, you know, I'm still sort of navigating some things, but, yeah, I can step up and and leave like that. I mean, I I knew I knew that I could love, and I knew that I could help. I also was very open with everyone I talked to that I was
trying to figure things out. Everyone knows. Everyone knew. All the system like, when I started meeting them, when I was in Relief Society, when we did councils, when I was in their home, I just talked about it. Yeah. So I didn't feel like I, yeah, I felt like I was just authentic. I felt like I just was very honest. Mhmm. And it it felt like I think that that was I think being brand new
was really a blessing. I didn't the release study president came over to me, turned my house, and was, like, ready to tell me all the people that struggling were struggling, and I actually asked her not to tell me anything. I was like, listen. I have a clean slate here. I don't even know people's names. Like, I get to knock on someone's door and be like, hi. I'm Becca. I just moved to this stake. You're on the roster. Tell me about yourself.
And there was I just it was so nice to be able to do that. Anyways, I just felt like I I could really the the being new and being vulnerable, I think, created an atmosphere in our Relief Society that allowed these sisters who had strong testimonies, like, so grateful for them to, like, just cheer me on and help me. But also they were more vulnerable. And then the sisters who were struggling with their testimony was like, oh my gosh. The Relief Society president doesn't
know if there's a God. I think I mean, that's probably too harsh. I I I was working on that. I definitely I definitely was had all the desire and all the belief that God was there. I was just working on it. But it I think it helped them feel like, okay. I don't I I don't have to know as much as I think I need to know to be here. Yeah. Okay. So so unpack them more because I'm curious, like, because this, principle of authenticity is a is a big
one. Right? And we I think every leader leader listening knows the power of authenticity, wants it to be part of the culture of whatever organization they're leading. And so is there more to say, like, how do you show up that way? Begin because you wanna be like there's there's parts of all of our lives I feel like that we're not settled or we're still navigating where it would almost be inappropriate. I
I don't know. Like, if I'm if I'm struggling with some mental health issues and I'm not in a good space, like, that can spin out of control real quick because I'm not grounded in in it. And so I wanna be authentic, but I also don't wanna, like, spiral out of control and send others spiraling
out of control. Right? So, what tell unpack that more as far as, like, how do you show up and be authentic in that state or just, you know and being you, like, if you were to train a a room full of Relief Society presence, where would you start with that? Well, I mean, I think and I I'm I'm hoping to train the young woman this now. I think to be, you know, inauthentic in this in this way and and to be a great leader, like, I can't do I can't ask my sisters to do anything
that I wasn't willing to do. So one way that I was going to be authentic to the Relief Society is I was gonna I was going to study my scriptures. And one way I was gonna be authentic is I was going to go to the temple, and I was gonna pray, and I was gonna show up at church, and I was gonna magnify my calling. Those were ways that I feel like, like, I just wasn't going to ask anyone to do anything that I wasn't willing to do myself. Yeah. And so I don't know if that answered your question, but
Yeah. A little bit. But I'm just curious, like, did you did you find yourself raising your hand in class and making comments that are more authentic, or did you start the the meeting off just saying, let me tell you about my story. Or Yeah. No. That's a good question. I think I think it was just natural. Like, I shared it when I felt like it. I was hiding it. I think, I I wasn't just, like, pushing it on people, but Yeah. I didn't, like, step into the role and
be like, I don't have a testimony. You know? I just I I think I just shared, like, yeah. I I really have a hard time with that too. And I'm working on my testimony right now too. And I'm reading the Old Testament and to try to get to know God more. And I think it was just, you know, when the moment happened, I'm not sure that I didn't know everything. I knew very little.
And did it impact did you feel like you maybe needed to not teach as much because you couldn't really stand there authentically and get into certain doctrine? Or I mean, things that I believed when I was called, I believe that loving everyone is important. I believe that family is important. I believe that, I I believed that desire
was important. So that's a good question. I remember in Kentucky when I was in the prime I was in the primary presidency, and I was really struggling with my faith that I was asked to teach on prayer, to the kids. And I just had to be really I wasn't going to lie. So I had to really work through myself, like, k. What do I believe here, and what am I willing to come out of my mouth? Yeah. So I don't really remember exactly what I did.
I think my first lesson was Mother's Day, and we talked about the women in the bible, and what they did. And then we just had discussions on, you know, how does this inspire us, which I didn't really have to, like, have a super strong testimony. Like, I like, if that just that was how can we how can this inspire us to be good was enough. Like, being good is important. Even even if I'm struggling with my testimony, I can try to help women ins inspire them to be just a little bit better.
Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful. That's good. Did it and not that we wanna single anybody out who may be listening, but, I mean, did how did other sisters responded? I mean, did you get wind of, like, people going to the bishop being like, hey. You do know that Becca is sort of not totally in? Like I don't know. I mean, did any of that come up? I don't think so. I think everyone was cheering me on. I mean, listen. Oh, cool. That's awesome. The youngest ones in the ward. I was brand new.
You know, I had I I was open that I was really struggling with my testimony. I don't think there was if there was, I didn't know about them. I'm sure I mean, I know I I know that maybe there are people that weren't happy with me at some points, but I just felt so much love from everybody. It just felt like people were cheering me on. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think I mean, there's so many dynamics to to to consider here, but, like, I'm just thinking of those leaders who are maybe, like because there's this pressure of sitting in a bishopric meeting or and we're, you know, we're talking about callings. There's this pressure of like, well, if we're gonna call a relief site president, let's make sure we call the super member, you know, who's really in because we need that example. Right? And so we dismiss some names from the list to be considered.
But the beauty of revelation, like, leaving your bishop here, you know, even when he maybe was unaware of what your journey was and then which led to more authenticity, and and then it led to this this group of women who were cheering you on. And and I it's just beautiful even though it's like some may frame it as not ideal. Right?
Right. Totally. And I understand the the scary element of of a bishop and a bishopric trying to decide about calling someone who doesn't have a strong testimony like that, who openly shares or or or I don't know. Maybe maybe our actions need to need to speak for for us a lot. Like, if we see someone who is being open about what they're struggling, but they're there regularly, and they're being kind to people. And I think I think that and, you know, they're
willing. I think that those are good things. Obviously, if we have someone up there just breaking all the rules or breaking their covenants, you know? Yeah. Exactly. Not not necessarily sure if that's the right person to call, but I don't know. Revelation. Follow revelation. Yeah. Fascinating. I really love that. Alright. Let's as we do in these how I lead interviews, I had you send me three principles that that helped you in your leadership. And if any of these spill over to your
because you're now the young women's president. Right? And we can talk in that context as well. But first one being visiting sisters in their home at least once a year. Tell me more about that. Yeah. That just is in the handbook. That one stuck out to me. I think I was so eager to get to know these sisters. I mean, I remember the 1st month the 1st month that I was called, I called every sister on the phone. I still had a 9 month old, and he
took naps. And so every nap and every nighttime, I would set up these appointments, and I would just call and just be, like, for 30 minutes, chat with his sister. We have about 60 active sisters. So I called every sister on the phone just to get to know them a little bit more. But then I was I was pretty diligent about finding a way to be in their home once a year.
Sometimes it was like, you know, if it was if I was in someone's home for a scripture study and I visited with them for a little bit, that was that was enough. But it was it was often like I would just go visit them on Tuesday nights or after church on Sunday. I was constantly,
I guess you could say, dating them. Like, I I I I kind of like, you know, my husband talks I mean, we still go on regular dates, and it's you know, these relationships are not in order to have people and inspire people, you have to know them. And and to know them, it takes a lot of time. And so I just wasn't willing to ask anyone to do something if I didn't also know that their mom just broke their arm in the hospital, or I didn't know that their little one was really struggling to eat, you
know, any type of food. Like, I needed to know them before I could ask to them to do anything. So I think at least I mean, the whole time, but certainly up front, that was all of my focus was just getting to know them. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Anything else as as far as the the yearly visits that we were worth mentioning?
I did drop off like, I had a a list of all the birthdays, and so the super inactive sisters, I would drop, I hate phrasing it that way, the ones I didn't know, the ones I didn't know, the sisters I didn't know, I would drop stuff off at their house and often not know them or often not get a response. I didn't really care that much about cleaning up our roster. I didn't wanna spend my time doing that. I was willing to just drop stuff off of people's homes.
There was one time about a year into our presidency that, my presidency and I decided that we should do, like, a blitz. And so we blitzed all these these sisters' homes that I was unable to get in, and nothing came of that, except for a bunch of sisters that were willing to follow the response of the release study president asking them to come do the blitz. Nothing else came from that, but we tried.
Yeah. I love that, and I appreciate you saying that because sometimes you're like, we should do this, and it kinda doesn't work, you know, and that's okay. Just Yeah. Move on to the next idea. You know? Yeah. So that's awesome. Alright. Next, next principle. I and I'm just gonna insert this. I've gotta ask. Do you have a pink piano behind you? Oh my goodness. Look at that. Just painted. It's not a real painted it? Yeah. Is it it's not a real piano? Or
what do you say? No. It is a real piano, but someone that, like, is a pianist would call this furniture and not an instrument because you're not really supposed to paint instruments. You know? But I have 4 boys. I shouldn't have a pink piano, but I had to get some feminine in here. So Awesome. Love it. Sorry. My ADD just I just had to ask. So this next segment is brought to you by by Pink Piano. So
Yeah. Here we go. Alright. Next one is, ministering, which are all, you know, elders, corporate presence, really steady presence, always curious about ministering circles and ministering interviews. Go. Oh, this was my favorite part of the calling for sure. I I have to say that I had I I mean, I had an incredible presidency. I I when I was called, bishop told me to call people that, had the strengths that were my weaknesses. So I called sisters who had strong testimonies to help me compensate.
I also called sisters that, well anyway, so I just have to thank those 3 or 5. Actually, I had 5 at 1 like, I had a bunch for all their help. But we just decided, really early on that I I I believe people in this church are constantly trying to do good. And I I really dislike the rhetoric of I'm a bad minister. So I was like when we did ministering interviews and one of my sisters would tell me they were a bad minister, I'd be like, shut up. Like, that is that is not true.
Like, you literally just picked up this this little girl from school and took her to her mom's house. Or, like, I know that you have this family over for dinner. Like, I know that. Like, you know? So I I started, like, seeing this this idea that, like, oh, I'm such a bad minister. I was like, what are you talking about? You're constantly doing good. That's what ministering is. So we have this discussion as a presidency of how can we make ministering more authentic.
And we ended up we've we we had this idea of creating groups instead of companionships. And and these groups, Yeah. So we had this idea of creating groups. So then we went to the Relief Society, and we had a council about it because it you know, in the handbook, it talks about counseling. And we said, we're we're thinking about changing ministering. We wondered what you guys thought of changing from companionships to groups, and being in a group of 6 and, kind of like being taking care of each
other. And they were like, yeah. We love it. Let's do it. So then we asked questions like, would you prefer being ministering sisters to people that are really close to you in proximity? Would you prefer being ministering sisters to your friends? Or would you prefer being ministering sisters to whoever? And we kind of got in in one of that's what we did with one of our ministering interviews, is we just
asked those questions. And, yeah, they shared their thoughts, and it was a really cool experience because we got all these thoughts, we compiled all the information, and the 4 of us got together, and we said a prayer, and within 1 hour, we had re like, revamped all of ministering, and it was definitely led by God. Like, you ministering is a lot of work, but, this just, like, came. We put friends with each other. We put people that are close to each other. We put, like, in proximity.
You know? It just felt like suddenly we were you know, had all these we had all these circles, and we introduced it, and and people were excited about it. It it ended up I mean, I've I've now heard other people doing it. I mean, I started sharing this in our stake, and a lot of our ward other wards in the stake have kind of shifted, and I know it's different for every ward. But a lot of things happened from this where, like, we we released the compassionate service
leader because she was no longer needed. Like, when a sister had a baby, there was 5 other sisters there to support her. And when a sister, you know, when the sister lost her husband, that's her there were I mean, there was a whole stake there to support her, but she had 5 sisters right there cleaning her house and ready and willing to take her dogs and help her with that. So it just I just and we did.
We paired these we paired these women with their friends, a lot of them with some of their friends, and, we have a blessing in our ward that there are no cliques. So I just didn't worry about that. And I I I think that that made it easier. Like, it's not like people are like, oh, I'm not in the cool ministering circle. But, they just were you know? And then and then we started this rhetoric of, like, and
then it just become easy. Like, these sisters were calling the people that they would naturally call to help them, and then suddenly they were like, oh, I am ministering. Like, so often, I feel like we think we need to pair, like, complete strangers with each other and then have those 2 strangers with a stranger. And sometimes that's great, and and, obviously, revelation takes a key. But sometimes it's okay to pair best friends and let them know that they're doing God's work by taking care of
each other. Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful. Love that so much. While we're in the topic of ministering, is there any anything that's worked for you or any tips you give from what you've learned about ministering interviews as far as getting them done, or I don't know what to say or yeah. We always prepared 3 questions. We only did ministering interviews in that Q1 of 1st month of the quarter because I refused to have my whole life be ministering interviews.
So true. I was like I told my presidency, like, I don't care what you have going on. We are getting our interviews done this month. Uh-huh. I feel like there are very few things we can be perfect at. We can't be perfect. We can be perfect in our tithing, and I feel like we can be perfect in our ministering interviews. They don't have to be super formal, but we have a way of connecting to our sisters, even if it's like, Hey, I know you're super busy. Here's a text message.
You know, how is it how are you doing? How is your sister just doing? Anything we need to know. And a lot of times we would ask, you know, Where is your faith? 1 the question we asked right before I was released was, what's your relationship like with the temple? And we got all this information back from 60 Sisters of their relationship with the temple. So, yeah, I think we asked 3 questions. I I even had my secretary interview because that just divided up a little bit more.
And I we kept them we tried to keep them brief. We tried to say, like, we only need you for 10 minutes. We did with the circle. You know, often you do companionships, but with the circle, we just inter we interviewed each person individually. So we were often interviewing somewhere between 40 to 55 sisters individually and connecting with them every quarter. And that was such a blessing, because then we just knew what was going on in people's lives
no matter what. Yeah. So Yeah. So these three questions, so those would change every time you just come together as a president so you decide we're gonna ask these three questions and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, often it the first one was almost always, how are you? How are you doing? Tell us what what's going on. Mhmm. And then the second one was always, you know, anything we need to know about your
sisters or you're concerned about? And then there would be a third one, you know, what's your relationship like with the temple? What's the best way to reach you? Is there, is there something that you feel like you can offer to the world that we don't know about? I I can't think of all of them, but we would we would often yeah. We would just come up with Wow. What we felt like. We wanted to know about the sisters to get to know them
more. Yeah. That's that's great. Because some of them are, like, more thoughtful or spiritually related. Others are just more practical. Right? Yeah. Yeah. A chance to get more information. Alright. Last one is, prayer and fasting. So you talked about your time as teacher primary about prayer, but, I mean, you're on the prayer train, sounds like. I'm actually not still a great pray er. Prayer? Prayer?
I definitely am not great. I I feel like I don't think I've ever seen Landon not, like, say a prayer before bed or say a prayer when he wakes up. Like, it's just instinct. He gets down on his knees. He leaves. He gets down on his knees.
He gets in bed, And I've never been really good at that, but I felt like I was able to in in my calling maybe there's something in me that feels like I can't ask God for things that I need, But I felt like there were oftentimes where I was incapable of of helping sisters, but God could do it. So it just felt like I you know, there was a time where one of one of the one of my friends text me, and she was like, my baby hasn't slept for 4 nights, and I am so tired.
And, you know, I'm it's 11 o'clock at night, and I'm like, I can't I can't do anything for you. But I remember being like, heavenly father, like, I am the release study president of the 6th word, and I have access to priesthood power, and I need you to help little Elena sleep tonight because, you know, Caitlin is really tired. And I did that a couple of times where I, like, I just gave all of it to God and was like, I can't do anything about the situation, but you can. And then it was great.
I mean, this didn't always happen, but Elena slept for 4 hours that night, and she got some sleep, and that was really great. So I I definitely used that tool, a lot. And and fasting, I you know, when you have babies and you're breastfeeding and, you just get out of the habit of fasting, I've been doing that for 10 years. I hadn't really fasted a lot.
And but every Fast Sunday, I had sisters who needed help, and I had, I had I had things I needed to try to discover to help them, and I just I religiously fasted, and I fasted for them, and I fasted. And, I mean, I remember one time, we as a presidency fasted that we would be able to knock on some doors, that we we couldn't get into. And we were we knocked on 9 doors, and we got into 8 of them on that fast Sunday, which is just, like, never ever happened again.
So from a testimony standpoint, I guess this is maybe less for the sisters, but just I just used those religiously. I fasted and I prayed, and I read my scriptures as much as I could Yeah. To try to help. Love it. And just those because there there will be those moments in leadership experiences where it's like like something terrible is happening or, like, someone needs help.
And I literally, as a mortal, I cannot like, I don't I'm out of bandwidth or I don't I can't reach them or they're far away or, you know, whatever it is where literally all you have is to drop on the powers of heaven and bread and pray for them. And that's and that's okay. You know, that's in, just, you know, these sweet experiences come from. It's powerful. Sure. Anything else about prayer or fasting that you mentioned? Or you got it? I do
think I've gotten better at it, though. Like, even just retelling that, like, sometimes I say I'm not a good prayer, but maybe I should stop saying that because There you go. Like, I should give you your dose your own medicine. Like, come on. Yeah. You don't know what you're talking about. Right? I I do think I pray. I do think I do think I'm learning Look at that. How to do that. Yeah.
That's awesome. Awesome. Any other point, principle, story that we need to make sure we include, or how'd we do? I loved being a release study president. It was really great, and I I I still feel very overwhelmed as young woman's president. And I think every day I wake up and think, it's so much easier being the Relief study president. So Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't have anything else. I'm really grateful grateful to a bishop a a couple of bishops who
followed Revelation. And Yeah. I should say I should say that my elders' quorum president was really great at listening to my doubts all the time and loving me still, so he was also really helpful and and my presidency. So Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So I have 2 more questions for you. I usually have 1, but I I'm curious, like, to come full circle here. Like, what did being a really sighted present do for your your faith and your, you know, your belief, your testimony.
Yeah. I mean, if you haven't caught by now, I did a lot. I I decided at the beginning that I was gonna give it to God, this God that I wasn't sure existed, and I was gonna give him my everything, and that I hoped that by the end that I would know that, that he was he was real. And I do. I know that he's real, and I think that we can do that with
all sorts of things. I don't think we have to be the Relief Society president, but we can give our whole effort into trying to know God is real, and and we can take our time in doing that, and I hope that people, do that who are struggling. Yeah. Isn't that just a beautiful grace that God gives us that even he allows us to have faith in him even when we're not sure that he exists? Yeah. That's so amazing to me. I mean, it's simple, but it's it's amazing. He's like he's
probably like, Becca, you're such an idiot. Like, come on. Like, I've showed you so many times. It is it is sometimes I get frustrated with myself. Like, I must I have this weird thing where I watch a TV show, and I can rewatch that TV show and forget everything that's ever happened. And I feel like that's part of my problem is I just, like, I have a harder time, like, remembering all these spiritual experiences and relying on them.
Yeah. And so it's just this constant, like, you know, Groundhog Day for me with with my testimony, and I've just accepted it. Well and you can do that as many times as it takes. You'll always I'm just gonna keep going. I'm gonna keep doing it. That's right. Alright. Last question I have for you, Becca, is as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
So I I think that as a leader, you have a beautiful opportunity to to see some really hard things, and things that are not the fault of that person or things that are. And, and I I I mean, I went and did lots of needs assessments and food orders and visits where I would leave and think, man, if every single person could just have these experiences, they would want to do so much more.
And, you know, that's that's what the savior did is, he just he just went and, tried every all he could to to to help people's loads be lighter. And I just see him as only doing good, and I I just wanted to be more like him. And that concludes this how I lead interview. I hope you enjoyed it. And, I would ask you, could you take a minute and drop this link in an email, on social media, in a text, wherever it makes the most sense and share it with somebody
who could relate to this, this experience. And this is how we, how we develop as leaders, just hearing what the other guys doing, trying some things out, testing, adjusting for your area. And, that's, that's where great leadership's discover. Right? So we would love to have you, share this with, somebody in this calling or a related calling, and that would be great. And also if you know somebody, any type of leader who would be a fantastic guest on the, how I lead segment,
reach out to us. Go to leading saints.org/contact. Maybe send this in individual an email letting them know that you're going to be suggesting their name for this interview. We'll reach out to them and, see if we can line them up. So, again, go to leading saints.org/contact, and there you can submit all the information and let us know. And maybe they will be on a future how I lead segment on the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember, go to leading saints.org/14 to access the remarkable presentation by Anthony Sweat about ambiguity and doctrine. It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, We were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.