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who could benefit. So go to the Youtube, search for leading scenes find our familiar red logo and subscribe. Larry Richmond, welcome to the leading Sai podcast guests. Thank you. So I hear Kurt. We've known each other over several years. And Yeah.
And you... You've had some cool roles at the church that think a lot of church members they just just magically these handbook come out of the church or happen This curriculum or the diminishing program, but there's people like yourself behind the scenes making it all happen. So how do you describe your career? How do I describe my career? It's been varied. Yeah bit. It really started on my mission I was called the Guatemala El salvador mission, and I then Spanish
in the Mt, Mh. Which well Lt what was called the point. That's how the far back it goes. And after 4 months there speaking Spanish, I was called into a program to learn 1 of the maybe Indian languages in Gu wow. Ko Kill. So things sort of changed, and, they brought down a professor from By, Robert Blair to basically teach us how to learn a language from the people. He brought us down a textbook and gave us some pointers for a few
weeks and said, good luck. Because there wasn't like a dictionary in English Ko dictionary areas. There was 1 grammar that he had written years before. So he knew this... He knew the language. Okay. And he brought in a bunch of members there and we had a 2 week crash course in how do you pronounce things and mostly, how do you listen to people and how do you learn from them? Wow. Does this sound anything like as no
completely. Wow has different route. Spanish is a Latin language and the You're starting over languages. Kind of starting over, But it was really fun. It's So my point for my reason for bringing that up is that kind of led to interactions with the church. Mh. Nothing had been translated into C ke church
materials up until that point. So the last few months of our mission me and a couple of other elders were called to prepare the missionary discussions, and the Joseph Smith Pamphlet and So when I went back home afterwards, they hired me during the summers to help continue that work. Oh, wow. And so I went back to Guatemala a couple of summers after that and began working for the church part time in translation work. Do they still teach the gospel in this language? They do.
It's a real interesting social economic kind of issue there. Kind of a clash of cultures. The Latin Latin race who speaks Spanish versus the native Indians there who speak Ko or K or Ke or 1 of the other 17 or so languages fascinating that we've dealt with. So I began working for the church as a translator And so for the next several summers went back to Guatemala and worked while I was going to be while part time. Cool. And that kind of led to my introduction in
the church. Of me even thinking, well, do I wanna work for the church? That how did the... Did you... Like, what where how did your Crew progress progressed through the church You work in different apartments. Idea that I bounced around a bit. I started working actually not even in the translation department, but with materials management. Helping with the printing and distribution of church materials.
And then I ended up in the translation department and eventually the curriculum department, which was later merged with the Priest family department. So I've been involved with the production of Church materials and helping with the development of church programs, basically my whole career. Yeah. Well, and then how many years were you in the family priest department? About the last 15 or so years. Okay. Yeah. And then you recently went on a
mission to South Africa. I did and came back and started a new mission in the it I did. Yeah. I retired in May of 22, and my wife and I immediately went on a mission. My last day of work was a Friday and the next Monday morning, my wife and I were in the Mt. Oh, headed to South Africa. That's cool. So we were there year and a half and came back and now In a church service missionary working with some of the same people. Cool
special practice. And there's all sorts of church service missionaries missionary throughout the, like, the the corporation of the church. Right? Like, church offices. There are lots of church missionaries, not nearly as many as they need. Oh, yeah. Right. So this is that a call out that we need some... That's a call out. Yeah. You know, And people don't think of it very much. You know, you can serve as a senior missionary
at age 40, Mh. And on. In fact, if you're single, you can be a church service missionary at age 26, the church needs lots of missionaries. So it's not just a thing to think about once you retire, you can serve part time from home before you retire. Or full time after you retire, whether it's away from home or at home. A lot of people think well, I can't serve a mission because my family or my economic or my the situation or my health situation preclude what you
can concern from home. Yeah. The hundreds of different ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's really cool the different change they put out there that to make it easy for you. Right. In fact, when we were in the Mt about half of our district was going to the Poly cultural center in Hawaii. And they were going to be seams stresses with costumes or 1 couple was they were assigned to the Ukulele experience to teach a visitors how to play the Ukulele like ran
the gift shop. But if a person has any idea that they wanna go on a mission, They should go to senior missionary dot Church jesus christ dot org. Just look. Yeah. At the possibilities. Yeah. We had 1 couple that they were farmers and they were assigned to church ranches. And so they went on their mission after they retired in their Rv. And they would go from 1 church farmer ranch to the next. That's cool and just doing different things at church ranches. But Yeah. It... It's amazing the
opportunities that are out there. Nice. Nice. So, like, having your current that church... Did you imagine, like, is you're a few into it, you'd spend your majority... I mean you're your full career there. Or there's always maybe 5 more years or 3 I was in graduate school at the time, and I had been studying instructional science. It was called at that time
nowadays, they call it instructional technology. Mh But my idea was to get into language learning programs, going into business to do that, and I was offered the a full time position with the church, right in the middle of grad school. And I just knew it was the right thing to do. So I finished that up as quickly as I could and started working for the church. Yeah. And so it ended up you know, I in project management kinds of
responsibilities. Mh. And then I was with the translation department for 5 8 year or something like that. And then ended up again in project management, product management, Mh. Program management, just helping the church implement different kinds of projects. Now... And with projects and efforts that the church is working on? Like, what are some misconceptions of maybe the general membership has or
what can... You know, what's a peek behind the curtain a little bit as far as just understanding it goes on by the scenes that, you know, that ends up just sort of our Sunday experience or our church experience. Yeah. Well, that's interesting because the the pre student family department is responsible for those kinds of things. Mh. The Sunday experience that during the week experience, the the church organizations, A Quorum relief society, primary, Sunday School, young men women.
So any church program happens on Sunday or during the week or curriculum that comes out magazines, leadership training. Those kinds of things are done by the pre student family department. Mh. Most things that get implemented are very, very well studied. The church is... Will we like to often would say this... It's like a big cruise ship. It's not gonna turn on and Dime. Mh. You know, It's gonna it's gonna stay the course. And that's the way the lord
wants it. You know, the the church doesn't flip this way and flip that way and change back and forth, but it's little course corrections. Yeah. But it's also really interesting to see how that happens and usually can't see that until afterwards, how the lord carefully orchestrated what happened. Sequence of things. So there were many times when, you know, the brethren would say, okay, we want you to study home teaching. Figure out what's working what's not working. Come up with some ideas.
And so we would run pilot tests or we would do studies. We would do member surveys. We would do all kinds of things to figure out what's really happening and then come back with suggestions. Yeah. And sometimes we come back with what we thought were really good suggestions. And the brethren would look at it, study it and think about it and pray about it and say, well, you know, it's a good idea, but time isn't. Yeah. And this sort of those flashes of revelation that you may be witnessed.
Right? Like, obviously, there's this And I you experienced in local leadership too. So there's there's this broad leadership by the time you're at the end of your time serving you look back. And he thought, wow. Like, look how God was involved in that. I didn't even realize, but then there's those those afternoons or the the meeting where it's, like, well, something shifted here, and that was cool to witness. Yeah. Yeah. It really is.
And to see, you know, I had a whole file of good ideas whose time has not yet come. Mh. Who I actually labeled the bad drawer, and and he will now read that file for us now. You know what? And sometimes even the brother sometimes may not know why. But they may say, no, it's not quite the right time. Yeah. And as you look back on things, you know, for example, I was I was... I I led the group that that implemented the the change from home
teaching of is teaching administering. Mh. And that combined the elders quorum and the the high priest group. Together. And those were ideas that had been thought about quite a while and been studied, and but it just wasn't the right time. Mh. If you look back now in the sequence of events, there were certain things that had to be in place before that really
really made sense to do. Yeah. And the brother steady these things carefully and they figured it out and and there may be pieces of it that they know the right things to do, but there's 1 other little piece that has to happen first. And that's where you see this gradual revelation. Mh. You happening. Yeah. Then so just using the home teaching,
experience visiting teaching experience as an example. Because I feel like in such this in the church with such a long history, and and we're very... I don't know the best way to say it, but formalized church where, you know, we're... If we create a... If the church creates a program is going out to the full church, Just not like, Oh, Africa is not doing this or Yeah. You know, like, everybody's doing where some programs like home teaching. It started out to this point where it almost felt like
it it gone stale. Now that wasn't as of the church's fault or could've have been, like every elders quorum issue. But of was sort of, like, alright. You know, and all the jokes come, and it just sort of becomes this thing we do, but we know we should do, but we're not doing it and administering sort of helped us breathe bring new fresh air do that. Right? Refresh fresh
air and trade it. So it's... So just from name from that home teaching journey, like, how do you approach sort of those programs it feels little stale from the the church side of things? Well, as employees, our job is to study it out, Come with recommendations. Then the brethren and look at those, and they see a lot more than we see. Mh. And they look at it and say as the time right is a sequencing right. Is there something else that needs to happen first.
And they think about it and pray about it and receive guidance on what to do? That... Let me just give you a quickly 2 quick examples. Mh. This 1 was about, I don't know, 15 years ago or so we were implementing 1 of the first church apps, mobile apps. And I sat in a meeting with the quorum of the 12, and I sat you know, in the chairs behind the horseshoe table where the core of the twelfth set and some technology experts
from the church's It department. We're in there presenting the concept and and seeking final approval on the budget and implementing this new app. And I remember Robert D Hale, the time he was in these eighties. He was not in great health. He was there in a wheelchair had auxiliary oxygen, and I was sitting right behind him.
And after the technology experts have given their presentation, and remember he raised his hand and he, he made a comment and suggested just a slightly alternative approach to the technological approach that they had presented. It was it was on the technology side. Mh. And they stopped and they thought about it, and they said, yes. That's exactly. What we need to do. Everyone in the room felt it at the same time. Just
settled. Yeah. And there was this 80 year old man that you would say, I don't know how much he knows about mobile apps and technology and and so on, but he presented an alternative. If he knew what the Lord wanted to have done. And he presented that, and the technology experts I talked to him in the hall afterwards and said, have no idea how he saw that perspective, and I don't have no idea how we missed that perspective. But this is 1 of the ways
The lord guides is church. Sometimes people think, well, the brethren and they're they're old. They come from the previous generation, do they really know what's going on? They do. Yeah. They really, really do. Yeah I believe it. And they get briefings every week, they have a regular meeting where they bring in experts in technology and sociology and legal issues and and that... They're presented with a lot of information and then they have in depth discussions
about? How does this apply to the church? Yeah. You know, What do we need to do as a church? They really are aware of what's going on in the world and very, very much up to speed? And very, very much guided by the spirit. Yeah. Yeah. I I've heard several stories just from different people. As far even president Nelson has been a huge champion for technology and And things that, you know, and he texted early on before maybe people of his generation
were texting and things like that. And and so I think there's there's a lot going on that that very, very bright, man. Yeah. Every 1 of them as you look through every member of the 12 in the first presidency. You look at how the lord prepared them before they were called to the collins they're in. Yeah. And it's not just about smarts. It's not just about experience that that they're humble and teachable and and they're guided by the spirit. Mh. All the
time. Yeah. I've seen it in day in and day out for 45 years that I was a church employee. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me just about as far as with working with general authorities, you've touched on a few examples here because we see... You know, we're recording the stay after April 20 24 general conference and Yeah. You know, a handful of general seventies we're release from with Meredith status. We see new ones called. They walk up there, and they sit in their their nice
red chair. And and we sort of always we see it. And then maybe we'll see them come through our state conference here and there, but look comes to mind just with working with general authorities how that works. You had this group of church employees like the salary, people that just... That's their job. And then you have general authorities who are also in that mix, but acting from representing keys and things like that. Right? How would you describe it? Yeah. Exactly. So every
church department has general authorities signed. As executive directors of those departments. And then all the church departments report to 1 of the councils of the church. There are 3 main councils the priest and family executive Council that I worked under most of the time, of the temple family history, executive Council and the missionary executive council. So each of those have 2 or 3 apostles on them. So... And they have maybe some sisters from the resetting for the half
year. Yes. Even though it may not for organizations and a member of the presidency of the 70. Gotcha And a member of the presiding bishop break so that you get a good mix of people looking at issues from multiple perspectives. Mh. So you don't have... I mean, whether it's missionary or family history or priest work, you get this varied perspective. Nice. And so they counsel together on everything. So you get day to day direction from the executive directors
assigned to your department. And then important things always go to that council, which gets even broader perspective. Before decisions are made before. Yeah. You know, things are done. Do any stories come to mind or lessons learned or moments that, you know, just working with general
thirties that bless your life? It's an interesting balance because they expect the church employees to do the homework to come in with good proposals to have thought it through, have carefully planned budgets and timelines and all those kinds of things. And then they look through it with ordained eyes as to... Is this what the Lord wants done? Mh. This may be the way the world would do it, But is this the way the Lord's church ought to do it.
And sometimes those things are adjusted and sometimes they say, you know, you haven't done enough homework. Think through this thing and this thing and this thing and come back with a better proposal. Mh. Or sometimes they say, great idea. Thank you for doing that. Mh. Time's not right. Yet. So put that in the drawer and maybe bring that back later. Yeah. They when the time is right. But they also look at it so carefully and so lovingly, and you know that they're thinking and praying about
it. I remember a meeting just a few years ago where they were setting up the guidelines for the F youth conferences. And they were so concerned that all youth would be able to attend and youth in unique situations. How can we make sure everybody can come and it can work and everybody can feel comfortable?
And they approached those guidelines so lovingly that it was obvious they wanted every single year from the church to be able to come no matter what was going on in their lives, no matter what the situation was, how can we structure this in a way that everybody can participate? And be blessed by that. I remember coming away from that thinking. Wow. Their level of love and concern to make sure everybody can be included was so far above what I had been thinking
to that point. Yeah. For example, it's just it's impressive. Yeah. Because I would imagine is general corporate setting or you're an employee. It's like, you know, I got a budget to deal with here. I'm... I just gotta get this project to the end of the end of the line and And... So to have some of these perspectives just come up realizing it. Yeah. It'll probably cost us more money or, yeah. It'd probably be more complicated. But this is You know, this is that's
a leadership moment. Like, this is really important that we make sure that this is available to all. That it works for everybody. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's cool. That's the level of love and support. That's the level of concern and thinking and prayer that goes into every 1 of the decisions they make. Yeah. And your thoughts with as far as we're with channel authorities programming... Well, you just... Again, they expect us to be the professionals So there were a number of regular meetings
with general authorities that I would conduct. We. We had at a monthly meeting, for example, with the president sees of all the organizations and our general authorities that led our department. And I worked hand in hand with Elder Cap on that. Mh and he's an amazing man. So organized and he and I would have discussions about. Okay. Well, how do we want these meetings to go? What do we wanna accomplish from this?
There's this fine balance between carefully scripting out a meeting with detailed to agendas and follow up items and and decision points to be made. If you program it too tightly, we discovered. Mh. You s the spirit. On the other hand, you can't have a meeting with 20 general authorities and general officer and just say, well, what do you want wanna talk about today? You know? And and so our task was to find what is that right balance?
Yeah. How do you structure it in a way that effectively uses everyone's time, but at the same time gets input from everyone and you're loose enough that the spirit can guide and direct, and sometimes you don't accomplish the agenda that you thought upfront you would have. But you also get to the things that need to be discussed and you do it in a way that comes to a really good conclusion.
So I think leaders in the church, same thing with, you know, our award council meeting or a youth council meeting. You've got executive secretaries and Clerk that ought to keep track of follow up items and agenda items and all that kind of thing.
But you do it in a way that's balanced enough that the spirit can guide if things come up, you don't push them aside something that might have been more important to discuss than had on the agenda, you've gotta have enough breathing room that those things can come forward. I think be tricky times when, you know, it's, in know a we're counsel setting where like, alright, guys. Let's get in this room. Let's get it done. I wanna go home where church is coming up We gotta get
the kids ready here. You know, that there's sort of this this urgency at times, but take... Just let it breathe a little bit. Or a topic... You know, I remember as a bishop, but topic could we be sort of discuss. I'm like, wow, like, this is... There's more passion in this room about this topic than I expected. This and need to dig too Maybe. Right? Maybe talk about it more here or table it or let's come back to this because we can't just, you know, make a decision to move on. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So that fine balance. The lord expects us to do all the professional work. Mh. But then he also to be guided by the spirit. And so I think finding that right balance is key to leaders. Yeah. Yeah. You cover pretty well that as far as learning for general authorities, Any if you leave missed there's to learn Yeah. From them. They'd
be whole of amazing people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, And on my mission, we were able to work right closely with the area presidency, you know, day in and day out, and it's just so inspiring. Yeah. To see how they work and to learn from them. That's cool. Just tell me about, like, church initiatives that we see come up and this the process as what what thoughts or stories come in mind with implementing the initiatives that come through.
I've mentioned a few, you know, when we moved from home teaching to visiting at home teaching and visiting teaching to administering. 1 of our tasks was, you know, how do we implement this change? Do we come up with something that's stark and different? Or do we, you know, because change theory tells you, you know, there... There's 2 extremes. 1 is you completely take away the old and you brand something brand new. Mh.
And you go with that. And that can be a motivator for change because people see it as something new and fresh and exciting. Mh. On the other end of that is that you make incremental improvements. You don't really rock the boat, but you continually find some way to make incremental improvements. And so sometimes in in the church, as well as in life, 1 will work better than the other. And I think for 50 years, they were trying to make incremental improvements in home and
visiting teaching. And it pretty much, like you mentioned earlier was... Became stale a bit. Became stagnant. People got in their minds that they would... Okay, make an appointment show up at a house, read a lesson from their magazines, pray, and on the way out the door, you'd Well, you know, if there's anything I never do for you, give me a call. So as we discussed it with the brother, and they felt like, no. We need to make this major change.
That's why President Nelson's stood up and said, home and visiting teaching as we know it is now discontinued. Instead, what we're gonna do is now move to this hire and h way of administering where you really really care about somebody. You're not just a person that shows up at the door and gives cookies, but you're somebody's best friend. Mh, that they can con in and Yeah. That you know well and you're there for them. Yeah. And so they
decided to go that way. And in fact, there was quite a discussion about what do we even call it. And I would say that president Nelson received a revelation that it should be called ministry. Yep. All the words we chose and all the background we studied? Well, what these different terms, How would we translate them in 50 languages a world around the world? Will it make sense? Is there a common way that this would work around the world and president nelson
came back. It's said, it's real easy. It's called men strain. Fits with the scriptures and had some ideas on how to implement it, yeah, how to announce it. Then... Yeah. Because we've been doing, like, block teaching was back in the day. Yeah. And, you know, now teeth for right. So... Yeah. I think strings is a a good brand for, you know, that's for like a better term. For that. 1, as you talked to about administering 1
on 1 to people's needs Yeah. And have save your minister in all kinds of scriptures. Yep. Speak to that. Oh, let me ask you just about, like, the implementation of some new technologies and online things. Because you're were involved in that. Right? With social media pages and it in blogs and things like that. What experience is come mind? Well, for a little while, I was responsible for l dot org for about 5 years
I was the director of the website. Well, right when we made some major changes where it really went from pretty much static pages to database driven, we implemented a bunch of new technologies on the bottom end of it. We did a lot of study in terms of Seo, search engine optimization, you know, how should we structure the pages? How do we title things.
We put in place a lot of guidelines as to what the website I would do, how it was organized, how you would write things, the underlying technologies, And that was a really fun experience. We got to learn a lot of things. Mh. And in fact, the church was recognized by some Seo experts, for example and Okay. We had some write ups and magazines. Look what the Mormon churches doing. Yeah. Look what's happened to their visibility in search engines and and that sort of thing.
Cool. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. A lot of fun. Facebook came along and the church was trying to figure out, okay, well, what do we do And how do we... And I thought? We're gonna miss the right name at that point, L was what we wanted Facebook dot com slash l. U. So I registered the name real quick and we got in just before other people got it to... Nice. So it was fun being on the the forefront of the social media. Yeah. You know? It it's interesting when a new technology comes along.
And if if you look back, you can see this from day 1, you know, that major inventions and many of the profits have spoken about this major inventions in technology and in industry and other kinds of things in in travel, the invention of the airplane that the Lord inspired all of these inventions to further his work. Mh. You know, look at what we can do today with the the 12 traveling around the world. They're every weekend, they're on a plane flying somewhere. What
if we didn't have planes. Yeah You know I mean, long train right. Get the way that at the way technology helps the lord's work move forward. When Covid happened, if we didn't hadn't had Zoom and other technologies, to have virtual meetings, you know, what would have happened to the Lord's work. And we've learned a lot from
that. Yeah. You know, the church now provides ways that sack meetings can be virtually transmitted into the homes of people that help their other reasons don't allow them to attend in person. Mh. So it was interesting all the way through Covid lots of the discussions of the bread about, how do we really make the Lord's work continue
when we can't meet in person. Mh. And then what they learned from that also is well, even after Covid now isn't a problem, there's still people with long term illnesses or social anxieties or, you know, that still can't come. Mh. And can't come back. And how do we provide for them? Similar to that discussion about F. They're so concerned about Yeah. Every individual and their situation. And is there a way we can accommodate
that? Yeah. It's really a testimony to me that the the great amount of love that our leaders have for us and they're really just reflecting the love that God has for us. Yeah. You know, every 1 of us, no matter what our situation is. And we'll get into that somewhere when I I wanna talk to you about some of the life help. Yeah. Yeah. Things of the church has created. Yeah. Let me ask you about the those years as far as the L 3 65 that you suddenly became this blogger.
Even though, nobody really knew it was you for... Buying the scenes for a while. Right? But put my name on it for a while. What was the in impetus of that? There's this problem, which is a great problem to have. The church does a lot of stuff. The church provides help and materials and resources and manuals and websites and social media accounts and so many things that there's this dichotomy of there's a lot to offer, but people can't use it if they don't
Know it exists. Mh. But if we were to tell everybody about every little thing, they would just be overwhelmed. So the brethren are really concerned that we don't overload leaders or even members with stuff, messages, programs, Yeah. Apps, whatever, from headquarters that gets in the way of local leaders and families. Because additional pressure, like, it's coming from headquarters. I'm I'm use use it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they're there are key things that Brethren
wanna make sure that we use. Mh. Scriptures. Yeah. That's good. We have Sacramento meeting. I mean, know, there's some core things in the church that need to happen, the church could exist without mobile apps. But some people find them very, very useful. Yeah. And in fact, huge time savers and amazing things. So on my own, I... Well, I consulted with our department leadership and said, would it be okay on my own if I started a blog and started talking about some of these
things? Because some people do wanna know about every little thing the church. Yes. Mh. And so I got permission from them to do it. I started a blog. It was called L Media talk, And then later I rebranded it to L 3 65. But that was 18 years ago, And I've written an article on the website every weekday since then. Really Wow. About 4600 articles, I think. Holy yeah. Just saying, okay, there's been an update to this. There's been a new resource added to the
website. You know, whatever that might be. New meetings coming up, a devotion this Sunday for young single adults, whatever that might be. I just thought there's a a group of members and leaders that would love to know about all of that. Mh. So... Yeah. And he sort of had the inside year on what was coming up and so you could kinda get ready for it. It to Yeah.
Put it out there. Yeah. In a way, I mean, I never announced anything that was right already publicly announced, but it was just a forum to talk about more of the details, more of the min that some people might wanna know about. Mh. And you do that even through your res submission, your did. I done it every... So do. Did you just sort of keep a keep your eye out there as far as what's coming out on the Gospel library app things, and then just make sure gets, yeah. Projected
out. Every day, I read the church news and the church's news site and Nice. Other communications that are going out and Yeah. Keep my ear to the ground so that I'm aware of those things. Yeah. Just point out 1 new thing a day that are they interested? Are there some more than others that you wish, like, you wish more people knew about that they don't seem to here even though you're right about it what what... Well, let me tell you about 2
of them. Okay. So 1 is a set of resources called life help. So if you go to the church website into the gospel library, life help is 1 of the tiles. And there are some amazing resources about life challenges to give some good practical advice to people, whether they're going through depression or a divorce or Lgbtq issues or a death in the family or just... There's a list of, like, 25 different topics. Mh. And all of us at 1 point in our lives are gonna go
through 1 of those things. But to know there's a resource there that's gospel based that teaches the doctrine and then give some practical principles to follow and even some practical advice about things to think about or, you know, things to weigh in a decision about what I do in in the middle of this challenge. They're just an amazing amazing resources out there. Yeah. So things like you know, suicide prevention resources. All of those are in this section.
Yeah. Yeah. And they range all the way from divorced to suicide and everything else in between. Yeah. And that they kinda of, you know, reflecting that with, like, the resources like, a bishop that we have. Right? And, you know, sometimes generally, bishop get. Little bishop is not a therapist but in my. And it's like, Yeah. But in our faith experience, we have a person to go to and say, I just need to help. Like... And then, he has resources to connect them to and And the app is as well
as like, it's a starting point. It's not like the life help section will solve all your problems, but it will give you a great place to start. Exactly. Exactly. I was in a state presidency and most of our bishop weren't even aware that life helping exist so the state president said, Larry, make up a little card that we can hand out to the bishop. Yeah. If you need help with all of any of these kinds of things, go there. Yeah. Another thing that and cards they get hand
out to members. Say okay. You're going through this tough time. You know, I don't know too much about it, but I know there's some church resources. Let me dig into it. Yeah. And you can go read some of these church resources too, and then let's meet it back together again, let's discuss it. Yeah. And that gives a bishop a chance to say, okay, Well, what are the boundaries here?
I am their spiritual leader, but can I give them some practical advice without pretending to be their therapist right Exactly, You know? And Yeah. And to me it takes a lot of that onus off the for that pressure they feel like, like, I've gotta solve this person's problem for them and read that right scriptures, like, no, like, like, point them towards these resources and say, Yeah, you know, let's meet in a little bit
and talk about that. See what you learn, and I'll I'll read and, you know, we'll see what what we can figure it out. And that's beautiful. The leaders often feel like they have to give an exact answer right on the spot. Mh. Went off and the right answer is, you know, I I believe don't know. Let. Pray about it. You think about it. Let's both go see what church versus there are. And let's go from there. Yeah. Let's... And the the gospel library have is so phenomenal.
And even like, even what the church history department has done with some resources like, in the history stuff, Like, you just spend your time and start poking around in there. You find some remarkable stuff and enhance your study or enhance answer your life experience that really make the gospel click and more applicable. So... 2 other gems in there that a lot of people don't know about. If If you click
on the tile that says topics. Mh There's a list of, I think, 200 and something gospel topics. And some of them are as simple as faith or tit and so on that that where you just learn a doctor perspective. But some of it is like same sex attraction. Mh. Or about church history issues or events all kinds of things to go there to answer questions. Mh. A lot of times we'll go to Google
or Ai nowadays. Yeah. To find an answer to something, but we may look at resources that aren't reliable or that exaggerate the truth. There's so much information on the Internet, and some of it is partially true, and some of it is just blatantly false. Right. Yeah. And everything if I could say it that way. And so identifying reliable trusted resources that you really can
trust. Mh. Is really important. Yeah. Or you hear people say, well, I've gone out and I've done my research, which usually means I put the search term into Google, and I clicked on the first 2 or 3 results. Yeah. And without really knowing what the sources were what's reliable. Yeah. Now these... In that topic section, that includes the like, you hear the, like, the blacks and the priest, like, gospel topic
guess. Is, like, those are all in there, but then there's, like, smaller resources for the maybe more minor 250 of them or something. Yeah. And we've heard her especially early on with the gospel topics executives essays were, like, even bishop didn't know where these came from and suddenly a member was using him, and he was uncomfortable. I was like, no The church literally produced this. Like, I... And again, back to your source.
Of the gospel topics. They've all been reviewed by the brethren and they're all doctor sound. They contain, you know, all the the best information that we have about church history events, for example, their sources that you can rely on. Mh. So life help gospel topics, There's a third 1 called My calling. Oh,
yeah. So if you click on handbook and instructions, you know, if you're a new Elders quorum president called Obviously, you wanna to go to general handbook and read the chapter about elders quorum.
But right next to the handbook, the next tile over, is a tile called Collins, and you can drill into that Elders quorum president, Elders Quorum Secretary, and it will go into more detail about what you're responsibilities are, give you links to resources for apps and things that you might use in you're calling I'd answer lots of your questions. Because I've noticed there... Like, for example, there's, like, in the handbook talks about being a bishop, but
then there's Also, additional clients that may... Aren't in the general handbook or additional resources that may address how to be bishop. Is that accurate? Okay. Exactly. And so you gotta make sure you read all of those to get a good understanding of what's expected. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. So when when you call people to a calling, you obviously, send them to the handbook, but you also suggest they click the tile right next, the handbook that might answer some of their more
practical questions. Well which meetings am I supposed to go to and what handbook, other handbook or Resources do I have access to it it just lays all that out in real short, very direct way. Yeah. Now, talk to me a little bit about the handbook, and I think just to my time associating with the family hit appreciative department. I think there's a few people that it's been suggest my interview, and hopefully, I'll I'll get them there here, you know, who specifically work on the handbook.
But... Yeah. For my experience, and and correct me, I'm gonna make a broad statement here, but and you can correct the nuances. But when I deal with local leaders or interact with local leaders, the feeling is, like, we've got to just hold on to the handbook, not let go. And any idea that deviate out of the handbook or isn't mentioned in the handbook
is probably a bad idea. So let's And then I work with, like, interact with church employees or the police department they're like, I wish like, you know, there's more local adaptation They took, you know, when some of these things. As so, there's sort of this spectrum that people find themselves on. Sometimes they default. So much of the handbook that they're like, if it's not, you know, I'm... We're gonna be so by the book that no I... No
inspiration coming out of this experience. And then others that are maybe too lucy on the handbook experience. Also what thoughts given to mind as far as leaders in the handbook and how to use it and things? The current version of the handbook is a whole lot less prescriptive than it used to be. Mh. The previous handbook used to get into a lot more detail details It's actually 2 handbook. Right? And that, yeah. So it wouldn't even fit in 1 publication.
Yeah. The current handbook is so much shorter than the previous 2 handbook. But it's also just a lot more doctor and principle based. You know, the first few chapters, I would hope every member of the church, not just leaders read that sets up the purpose of the church, the purpose of families and the relationship there, and then it gets into some of the more specific about but how does the church run? How does it relief society? How is it organized? How does it run and so on.
But 1 thing that elder Dub who was the area president in the Africa South area until just this conference just yesterday. Mh. Who was announced that he was called into the presidency of the 70 he used to explain it to leaders this way. He'd say, you have total freedom within this box. And he said now this box is bound on the 1 side by scriptures. It's bound by the general handbook, and it's bound by direction from your leaders.
But within there, you've got total freedom. As as long as the handbook book doesn't tell you not to do something. As long as your leaders will approve, but as long as it's not in conflict with the scriptures, You got freedom to organize it how you need to and and do it, how you need to. Yeah. So you can read through the handbook, and you can see there's a lot of a lot of flexibility. Mh. A lot more than people think they really have.
So for example, in the handbook, it's it says, you know, you call an organization president. And then if you have enough members and you need to, you can call counselors. Yeah. You know, you don't have to staff every presidency with counselors in the secretary and you don't you don't need small branches, you may not need that. Yeah. There's a lot of flexibility there. So as long as it it doesn't go beyond what the handbook explains beyond the scriptures beyond your leaders.
There's a lot more flexibility than leaders often think. Yeah. Sometimes we just see, well, you know, my parents are... I've seen bishop do this in the past assume a bishop has to do things a certain way. Yeah. Well, what can the handbook could've have... Yeah. Because sometimes eric, you've you've probably got some flexibility. Yeah. Because sometimes in that box that elderly debate reference like, sometimes a tradition is sometimes tradition is Comes in there. And be like,
we're gonna bind to you? Like, wait. Where did you come from tradition? You know, Like, So... Just... And that's what going to the handbook and resetting. I remember starting in the steak presidency, Ward conferences is coming up, and we came together and said, we're gonna pretend, like, we've never experienced award conference before and go to the handbook and see was this would v. And just and we approach out totally different. It was refreshing, but it still in in that box,
you know? And and I think a lot of the bishop appreciated it. So when else comes... Well, you... And and you see that same pattern that we just described in the handbook, and it's very principle based doctor based. If you look at the latest version of the... For the strength of youth guide. Mh for youth. I mean, the previous versions, if you go back several years, it would it would describe, okay, this sort of clothing is appropriate. This sort of clothing is not appropriate.
The new guide doesn't do that. Mh. It teaches you the principle of modest. And then says, now you choose the clothing that you feel accomplishes what has been described here. You know, how we respect our bodies and and so on. Instead of... Well, skirt can only be so many inches above the knee you know, Yeah. Things like that. That... So in general, in the church, you'll see leaders teaching the doctrine and letting people govern themselves. We we've heard
that before. Yeah. Yep. And we'll hear it again. For sure. Right. Now, with the handbook, and this is relates to your L 3 65 of updates and things because they've had... Like, last few years, they had, like, every quarter or something they would at least sort of a chunk of updates. Yeah. But sometimes, I'm in the handbook and I'm like, wait. Did they change this? Or... I mean, they they notify everybody when they update the handbook.
Right? Because before they just sent out print copy so you'd be like, oh, this is... I have the right version. But now it's like, it's in my. But I think it was different yesterday. So how do the updates? There's a section right in the front of the handbook, and it will outline the updates that have been made Okay. Just, you know, saying recently. Yeah. You have confidence that so you can refer to that section, and it'll explain what the updates were. Nice.
But it's it's really nice that we don't have the printed copies because people would have handbook from 30 years ago. Right. In the course office and that's what they would refer to. Yeah. You know, now it's not go to the app. You got the latest greatest, you know that this is the current direction. Yeah. That's awesome. Tell, I'm just curious as we have a few minutes left as far as you just got back from South Africa on a mission there. You're working with the area of parenthesis
I mean, yeah. What was that experience like? What do you remember what's the church like there? It was an amazing experience, You know, ever since my wife and I got married, we said as soon as we retire, we wanna go on a mission. Yeah. And so we did. And it was a great experience. Every couple in the church, otto 1 mission and served together. Africa was a good experience for us. You would think that people who don't have... Well, for example, you'd have routine blackouts
3 to 5 hours every day. Oh, 1 day we went, I think 18 hours with no electricity. Unemployment rate is 40 percent. Oh wow. And among young single adults or young adults, it's 70 percent. Many of the members will walk an hour to go to church. You would think that people that don't have as much as you have wouldn't be happy, but there's some of the
happiest people in the world. Well, we were just conference weekend yesterday, my wife saw some snippets between conference sessions of some African kids laughing and playing and jumping around and She just almost started crying. She's like, I sells a little kids so much. Yeah. Sometimes they're blessed because we have so many complexities in life sometimes get in the way.
Mh. What I was impressed with the African people, when we first got there was their not just their humility, but their focus on the things that are most important. You know, people really aren't happy because of what they have or what they don't have. The gospel brings joy. And whether somebody has something or doesn't have something else that doesn't necessarily stand in the way of their happiness. Yeah. And it helped them focus on the things that really matter the most.
In their prayers and their testimonies, they talked about things that mattered. Thank you, God for letting me be alive today and for the beautiful sunrise. And things that we just take granted and don't even notice and don't even appreciate sometimes, because we're so caught up in that. The busy and the complexity of life. Yeah. That's awesome. So it was a refreshing thing from that way. There were lot of things I'd
learned from those great people there. And then just give us perspective, how an area of presidency works, you know, that's says usually a presidency of 3 seventies. Right? And they're just managing the church in that part of the world. Anything else you'd say that's right. They run all the ecclesiastical cooperation, and then there's a director for temple affairs, a D that handles all the physical things.
So they handle church buildings and finances and purchasing and fleet and all of the, you know, buildings and mission homes and there's just amazing the complexity of the things that they have to deal with. But you've got an area presidency seed that's decentralized from headquarters. They report to a member of the 12, and they also have a reporting relationship to 1 of the presidents of the 70. But they run everything.
In the area. So they're going out to state conferences and calling new state presidents or making sure that the missions are going well or the mission breast has a question, They call them type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Wow And and they set a direction for the area. Each new area presidency that comes in focuses on what they call the area of vision. Mh. So in our area, for example, 1 of the goals that they had was to dramatically increase the number of young missionary serving.
Mh because they saw that as key to growth in the area. Even though missionaries showed up in South Africa in Cape town in 18 53, the church really didn't take off in South Africa until the revelation on the priest did in 19 78. And a lot of the members of the church there are first generation. So they haven't seen their parents in previous generations function in the church. Sometimes the bishop only been a member of the church a couple of years. And so he doesn't really know what it means to
be a bishop. Yeah. And maybe hasn't been in his profession blessed with something that has taught him leadership skills or organizational skills or interviewing skills those kinds of things. And so sometimes they really struggle with what they need. And so the idea was if we can get more young people out on missions, missions teach. Yeah. A lot about the doctrine of the church, but they also see the church in action and they earn leadership skills through their whole mission experience.
So if we can get more young people on missions, we're blessing the next generation with all these marvelous leadership skills. Yeah. So their goal was to double the number of missionaries and they bid it within a year. Wow. That's awesome. So they really here again, we talked about tradition, you know, some of the leaders there. Well, is there counseling young people going on a mission well. If you've been saving up for your mission? In the economic situation, maybe their parents don't
even have a job? Yeah. How much are they supposed to save up for a mission? Well, So the area of presidency went back to Doctrine and Covenants section 4. Well, you have a desire are you worthy, and you've been a member of the church for at least a year. U. Those are the 3 requirements. Everything else will take care of itself. Yeah. And there was just this huge push and doubled the number of missionaries. That's it's gonna
make a huge difference. Yeah. Larry, last question for you, as you look back on your time, both as a leader as a, you know, working for the church, but as a leader, you know, as a lay leader in the church, how is being a leader, become a better follower of Jesus Christ? It's a good question. You know, I don't think any leader can truly lead if they're not willing to do the things themselves that they ask others to do. You can only fake it so long when somebody
sees you as a leader of... Well, you... You're not really doing that yourself or you wouldn't be willing to do what you're asking me to do. People will see through that, but more importantly than that, a leader's got to lead with the spirit. I mean, you've gotta be in a position that you're bringing people along with you, not just trying to push them to somewhere you've never been yourself. So in the church, we'll go back and forth between being a leader and a follower.
We may be a bishop 1 day, but then the next week, we're teaching a class or we're doing something else and we're following other leaders. And that's by design. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that you asked me what else I'd learned from the the general authorities that you see. They'll be in a position 1 day where their the president and they have other people as counselors, and then they're given a a different assignment where they're now a follower.
And they may not now be a counselor to somebody that they used to be a president over. And there's none of the there's no jo for position. There's no feeling that 1 assignment is less than another assignment. And the same thing the the local level. Like I say, you know... Yeah. Somebody's a state present 1 day in the next day they're in the nursery or their they don't even have a colleague, you know, for a while. I think we've gotta be willing, and that's part of the humility of being a follower
of Christ. Is you do what you're asked, you know, and you may have 1 assignment 1 day. That's a leadership position and the next day you have another assignment where you're a follower. And we gotta be willing to do that. Doesn't matter where we serve. That the lord knows our heart, and that's what matters. Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly wanna thank you for supporting the leading Saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider
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And remember, grab your copy of my new book his god disappointed in me on Amazon or in select Costco stores. It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth. We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with bold and courage and ability.