- How do you help someone tell their spouse that they have secretly been viewing pornography? Wow. These are tough situations. Thankfully, one of my favorite and most effective therapists, Jeff Reer, put together a presentation about disclosing betrayal. Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery and repentance so much more difficult if it isn't handled correctly. This isn't a rip the bandaid off quickly. Type of situation.
With a better understanding of betrayal, church leaders can be a strong resource in helping couples navigate the awful effects of pornography usage. You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no cost in the Liberating Saints virtual library. Simply go to leading saints.org/fourteen and you can sign up for 14 days of free access to Jeff's presentation and the entire library. It's one of my favorite interviews. - Alright, - Let's go around the room, do some introductions.
I'll start. So my name is Kurt Frankham. I am the executive director of Leading Saints, which is a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit organization. And we are dedicated, you know, have a mission here to help latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. Now, me personally, I live in Stansberry Park, Utah, which is in Twila County. I grew up in West Valley City and uh, been running leading saints really since 2010 when it started out as a hobby blog.
2014 is when the podcast started and now we are over 10 million downloads. And, uh, man, we're glad that you are now one of those downloads. Let's jump in. Alright. Today I'd love to welcome in my brother from another mother, Brian Herd. Welcome Brian. Hi, . Hi. He's a man of many words except when you get him on a podcast, all of a sudden just freezes up.
Right. I'm like, so I love doing these episodes where I bring a very thoughtful, experienced friend into the studio and we just have like the conversations we have, like when we go out to lunch. Yeah. Because they're like, man, I've been a great podcast that nobody will hear but us. But here we are. Now you're becoming the, the latter day Saint Podcast realtor. I don't know, . Yeah. Because you recently made a, a cameo on, uh, on Hello Saints with Jeff McCullough. Right. With Jeff.
- Exactly. It was great. - Now I get all the, 'cause I introduced you to Jeff as to be his realtor, so I get all the credit, right? . Hundred percent. Yeah. So Brian, you're a realtor. When people say, what do you do, what do you say? - So basically I help lead, guide, and protect people through the process of buying a house. Right. Home - Ownership. Nice. And, and you're my realtor. You recently helped me.
Yes. Buy a home. Now nobody wants to come listen to the podcast and listen to a, about a real estate transaction. But this was a miracle. Like the fact that I live in the home in American Fork, it's what we went through. So maybe just, what was the, like the, the abbreviated two minutes? Yeah. - The abridgement, the abbreviated the ament. Okay. - I mean, we close the thing in nine days. - Yeah. Which never happens.
- Right? Like people in real estate or mortgages be like, I don't believe you, but no, it really, - Yeah. I like to think of real estate. One of the things I like about real estate is I truly believe I can see the hand of God in my life every day. Mm-Hmm. . There are always - 'cause where, where people live matters. So especially - Totally matters. Yes. - Especially, I mean, in our faith tradition, I mean really anybody, but I mean, it sculptures your life. I mean the ward I'm in
because of where my house is. Right. Exactly. - Yeah. That's where your kids are gonna be raised. That's where you're going to find community. Right. That's where your life is going to happen. And so, like, I believe it is like a sacred thing. Mm-Hmm.
. And when I approach it that way wholeheartedly, and really that line between like doing all you can and exercising faith, the short version of your story is basically, we had someone that was gonna do an assumption on your loan, uh, out of the gates. It seemed like this is a slam dunk. It's gonna be done in a few months. - And just to, just to help the all ency of the audience, if you ever wanna do an assumption. And those in the mortgage industry know this.
Like don't do it. Like it doesn't. It's a unicorn. I was - Gonna say, in theory it's like communism. Like it's like this should work. This should totally work. There's - Work. Anyways, so, - So anyway, - We had a buyer lined up. We had a buyer assumed - The home we had buyer. It looked like everything was gonna work out really great. And like - We found a great home in American Fork. - Found a great home in, in Eagle Mountain actually at first. Oh - Yeah. We did at first.
- And then we realized quickly like, hey, this timeline that the, the bank's telling us isn't gonna work. And then we kind of go back to the drawing board and we're like holding on. And then we kind of hit this point where it was like, we either need to decide we're gonna like wade this out until the end. Or we either need to tell them like, look, if this thing works out, that's great. If not though, like, we're actually gonna keep trying to sell the house so somebody can buy it.
Now I feel fortunate that buyers were understanding of the situation, right? Mm-Hmm. and the way things worked out, we basically got to like the 11th hour and then outta the blue. Right? This is where the miracle unfolds. Yeah. And then like 10 things had to happen, which half of them you didn't even know about because I was like, I'm not gonna tell 'em everything because it's just gonna freak out because it was like a day to day.
Yeah. But one of the things that I thought I told you after the fact, I thought that was the first time that lender had done that loan program. 'cause it was a brand new program and that like, it didn't even exist two weeks before that. Right. Right. So anyway, it ends up working out. You guys are where we're at. Your wife is incredible. I just wanted to tell you, she - Deserves her own podcast. - She does deserve her own podcast. The - Atlanta Frankham Show.
- I would listen to it just humble and faithful and just - Like, we had to put that in God's hands. Like when I think, look back on 2023, that was the number one miracle in my, in that year where God was like, I just want you to know I'm still, I'm still in charge. Dramatically in your life. Yeah. And I'm like, yes sir. Alright. That's right. And, uh, so anyways, if anybody's moving within Utah, I can't recommend be heard in real estate more like you, uh, you really do amazing job.
And uh, I trust you fully with that. And, uh, I hope other people thank you. Reach out. - So it really is, I feel so fortunate that I get to do it because I really do love people and I feel like I get a window into their life that most people don't get. Yeah. And I feel like I've done it enough that I trust the process, even when there's times where it's like, okay, this is, this is interesting. And yeah. When you can see the hand in your, the hand of God in your life every day, I think
that's something everybody wants. Now, - Let's go into that a little bit. 'cause this is like leadership adjacent and really, I mean, it is leadership and you've had an opportunity to be elders, corn president. I mean you've Yeah. Done the rounds and whatnot with, with leadership. But like when I go to, you have different company events like many realtors do, but like you, I go to your, like, your summer barbecue.
Mm-Hmm. . And everybody there, all your clients think like, well, I'm, I mean, I'm Brian's best friend. I mean, everybody else is Sure. They're Brian's friend, but he knows me the best. Like the way that you, you have a gift of stimulating and connecting, you know, relationship Yeah. With people. And I like, and maybe it's one of those things you were just born with or, but like, how would you pick that apart?
Like, what's the science behind that of connecting with people and, and building trust with them from the beginning? - Yeah, , that's a great question. My simple answer is I am a person that like my leading and guiding principles or connection and relationship. Right. And what I've learned is, is that oftentimes most of the time God teaches me through other people. And so it's not from this perspective. I mean, the truth is, is I just love God's children.
And what I found is the people that have friends, I usually get along really good with their friends. Mm-Hmm. . And it works out really well at a deeper level if I'm paying attention, like, it's amazing the things that I can learn about myself through just listening and going through something with somebody else because I see myself in them often. Right. And it's so much easier to sift through my things through the lens of that.
Right. Because then I go introspective and I'm like, oh, you know, this and that. And Mm-Hmm. it just, uh, it gives me deep perspective. And the sciences is like, I believe that everyone's walking around with a sign around their neck in big, bold letters that says, make me feel important. That's all we want. - Yeah. - And, um, that's not a manipulative tool. The truth is, is like, you know, people's name, they love to hear their name. They love when people ask them, what are you doing?
What's important to you? What's going on in your life right now? Right. And the art of listening and connecting. I think it's like, I think it's an attribute that we desire. I think it's like in our DNA. Yeah. And I feel like I've been fortunate where I've had a lot of people in my life that have been that person for me. And then I've just realized, like, I've just realized it's important to me too. Yeah. You know? - Yeah. You, you gain a lot from connecting with those people as well.
- A hundred percent. It's, it's totally not like they walk away and I think, oh man, I'm really glad they talked to me today. You know? Right. It's more like, I'm like, man, I'm really grateful for that person in my life. Yeah. - And you know, some people might see you in your, in your day-to-Day job as a realtor. Think, well, you know, the guy's gunning for a commission at the end of this. He wants to build relationships and, and sure. You gotta make a living. And that's Yeah.
Part of the recipe that you hope comes out at the end, but maybe just takes like when you show up to church, right? Like, and, and again, I don't think you even realize you're doing these things, but just that authenticity you put forward is like, I've watched it from a distance and thought like, how do I, I wanna be that person 'cause it's, so I want to sort of, you know, get on in the suit and suddenly I'm Bishop Fran. Like, Mm-Hmm. , how are you two today?
Like, it, I sometimes have a hard time just being Kurt. Yeah. All the time. But I don't, I feel like you never have a problem being Brian. So what, I mean, what thoughts come to mind? Is there anything to that? So - This actually kind of comes into the Elders Quorum president conversation a little bit. Mm-Hmm. . Right. So I was in, I kind of like shuttle between like elders quorum and youth. Like that's kind of like, like - Your callings - And what Yeah.
They just kind of just tennis me between the two, which I love. Yeah. It's great. And I was elder's corn president for a really short period of time before awards shifted. And then I wasn't, so it was like a six month span. But what I realized is like a, a few things. One, I was like, there's three dudes in my elders corner, basically there's the dude I never see that's on the list. - Like there's not literally three guys , but - We're gonna go. Sometimes - I, - I lose metaphors.
Metaphorically. Yeah. Okay. Loses me. Alright. So there's the dude I never see, there's the dude I do see, right. That's like, but he's checked out. And then there's the dude that's like there and he's trying to do the best he can. And that's like a scale, right? Mm-Hmm. . Some are like, dude, I'm, I'm on an upswing in life. Others are downtime, but they're like, I'm going to church 'cause I got a testimony. Right. And - Some of those guys are making comments a lot.
Other guys are like Exactly playing brick breaker at the back of the room. - Right. They're fantasy football team. Yeah. You know, and then there's the dudes. I don't see, and what I realized is, is that when I started to make an effort to reach out to people that I didn't see because I was an elder SCORM president, there was already a wall. It was like, why are you here? Oh, you must be right. You're the guy. You're the guy. - Right. You're supposed to do this. Right. Mm-Hmm.
- . And when I was released in that calling, it was very apparent to me that I was like, I can do more good outside of a calling than I can inside of a calling. And I'm just going to pretend like my calling for the rest of my life is to connect with the people in the ward. And oftentimes the ones that people don't see. Mm-Hmm. Right. So I, I am going to be the guy that's like, I get people together. I go to Topgolf once a month with like people in my elders quo.
And I remember I invited some people that like, don't go to church very often. Right. Or don't go to church at all. And the one guy in the middle of the thing's like, hey, so is there like a catch to this? - Like, when did the missionaries show up? Yeah. - Are you like doing home teaching right now? I'm like, no, we're actually just going to Topgolf, Uhhuh .
That's it. You know? And I just realized like, this is where I was kind of telling you like, the Lord's work is happening inside the church. Right. As it should. But it's also very much happening outside through people just being disciples of Jesus Christ. Yeah. No agenda. Because my job is to love. That's my job. - Yeah. And, and it is not dependent on any certain title or calling.
And, and I like that how you lay that out, that there's obviously great things happening within the context and structure of the church and callings and all that. Yes. But to not dismiss the, the greater picture, you know? 'cause you know, you think of one of those guys maybe that go to top golf with you in the eternities. He may meet his maker and be like, where were you? And he'll be like, Brian heard dude, like, I sent Topgolf. Like I was there the whole time.
And then that, then that level, that connection of godly level be there and be like, oh, so you never did abandon me. Okay. Well hey, sorry I stopped gonna church. But, you know, life mortality was tough. Okay. Yeah. Right. And recognize just that you're with every interaction. It's not because of the calling, it's not because the real estate commission, it's the, this is, this is the gospel everywhere. - Yeah. It's not a Sunday thing. - Yeah. Not a Sunday thing for - Sure. You, you know that.
- Yeah. Anything else around the just like showing up in church? I mean, being yourself that would be worth mentioning? Or is that, um, and I know these are like, these are elusive topics. It's hard to be like, yeah, here's the five step plan. Right. - So here's the things that I thought was interesting. The blessing about being with the youth is that it's sacred because you are a vessel or a portal for these parents, for their kids.
Hmm. And you get to see a window inside of them consistently showing up over a period of time through camp outs and activities and this and that. Where like, I personally believe that a youth leader doing it right is as influential, if not maybe some areas more than the parents. Right. And so it's like totally sacred. Right.
Elders quorum. What I think is sacred about that is is, I mean, I don't know what the exact stat is, but there was something that was saying like, most men don't have more than like three friends. And that's shocking. That's - Like including their wife. Right. Right. - It's shocking to me 'cause I sit there and think that's so sad. Yeah. But then what's funny is, is like I was sitting in Elders Quorum. This is what got the whole thing started up for me.
I was like, can I name everybody in the Elder Quorum? That was my first thing. Just all these are games I play with my myself, like - Looking around the, in - The back of the room. I'm like, can I name everybody John? Yep. And then the next level is that was could I name their spouse and could I name their kids and could I name something unique about them that I know about them? Mm-Hmm. . Right. And truth is, is like, I was way more than three, which I feel blessed because of that.
Right. Like, I, I've taken time to get to know people. Mm-Hmm. . But the other truth was, is like I couldn't do it all. And so then I thought, well, what's a way that I could authentically connect with these people? But it doesn't feel like, it's like, Hey, you know, it's embedded in something. It's purely just like, I wanna get to know you 'cause you're my neighbor. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And when people can feel that the wall just goes down.
Because at the core our DNA is, is we want to feel connection. We want to have relationship with other people. Right. Men don't want three or friends or less, but something's happening in their life that's creating that. Right? Mm-Hmm. . And, and I am a more outgoing person, you know, maybe - More of an extrovert than - Others. I am more extroverted than others. But here's the funny thing is I've gotten older. I don't think I'm as extrovert as I used to be. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
- So a few years ago, I forget w when you sort of brought up, you were, you had these ideas brewing your, in your head about men's work. Yeah. And you're not a therapist, like you said, where you're a realtor. Yeah. You know, nor are you an aspiring life coach or therapist or anything, but you just felt this call to create something that you can invite other men into and maybe unpack that for what purpose? I mean, what is, what was that journey like? Or what's the story behind that?
- So I believe that ultimately like when we can like, dig in and start to like really do our work with ourselves, we realize that like everything is an opportunity to grow. Right. And I believe God instills inside of us desires. Right. And things, you know, like, like in the youth thing, it says I'm a child of God and I have a work, God has a work for me to do. Right. I don't think it's a child of God. I'm a son of God. Uhhuh . And he has a work for me to do. Okay.
Well we all have a work to do. Right. And so what's funny is, is like I always knew in my heart that like I had built an identity around like I'm a leader, right? Mm-Hmm. . But the irony to that is, is like there was ego in that too. And over a period of time, like running a big real estate team, things like that, like while I learned leadership ship skills, it also kind of like burned me out.
Yeah. Okay. And the evolution project kind of became like this passion project that I had drafted up in my mind years before. And then life was just so busy I never got around to it. 'cause it was, there was always something that was pulling at me. You know, it's like we had a child, an unexpected child 10 years later that happens, right? That it does turns out . And that was like a shift. I had some changes in my business that was a shift.
Covid happens. That's a shift. There's all these things. And I hit this point where I had gone so long talking about thinking about journaling, about something and I never did it. That it literally was creating like cognitive dissidence physically in my life. Hmm. Like, I'm a very optimistic person, but I feel like if I was explained to you, like everything that I was feeling at that time, you'd be like, dude, that sounds a lot like depression. Yeah. You know? Mm-Hmm. . And it was manifesting in
I couldn't be the guy that I used to be. Yeah. - So I want to like take a snapshot of this. 'cause I think people around you, around Brian heard, they will see, it's almost like the Robin Williams dynamic where they're like, come on, this guy. Yeah. Like, he loves life. He doesn't have any problems. But really behind the scenes and, and again, not that you were hiding it, but you'd open up to those that were close to you just being like, I just, I can't sit with where I'm at in life.
Like something, there's something else calling me into this. Yeah. And I think your experience is very typical with other men where, you know, we go home and we look into the eyes of our children. Mm-Hmm. . And we feel this call of I am supposed to provide for them. And we're like, we jump out of bed ready to go. And generally speaking, if people looked at you, look, those that know Brian heard or have worked with him, they think he is called to be a realtor.
Like he's just good at, but behind the scenes you're starting to feel this burnout. Right. And so I think a lot of men go down this path where they're like, okay, I'm the man I'm supposed to provide for my family. Yeah. I go down, but then that burnout starts to come. They don't know what to deal with it. They're like, no, but this is what I'm supposed to do. Yeah. Like, I, I'm supposed to, I'm the provider.
I'm the, and then it leads to this hidden depression that they don't know what to deal with. And then, you know, let the, the suicide statistics prove the point here that it doesn't lead in a healthy way. So, Mm-Hmm. I think a lot of men get to this point where they're like, okay, I'm providing, I got a great business going. It's not even, you know, good or bad or indifferent, but there's something more that I need to do.
And that's sort of where you were sort of processing this and leaning into that and that what sort of led you to the next part of the story. Right? - Yeah. I think something that's a fallacy is like, external success does not mean internal peace or internal happiness. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And it's interesting 'cause you study like Neely Maxwell for example, and he talks about divine discontent. Right. And he talks about these concepts of like, the desires of our heart, right?
Mm-Hmm. . And he talks about these, I really identify with Elder Maxwell. Like, 'cause I sit there and go, like when I, what I've noticed is, is when when I hear someone that I feel like has gone through the depths, he calls it the wintery doctrines. That's what Maxwell describes us as - In such his way. Right? - It's such his way. Right. .
But like, there is something that when I hear somebody, like for example, if I hear somebody in like a 12 step program, like they have an understanding about that thing at a different level than most people. Mm-Hmm. . Right. Because they - Like the, the guy who, who comes back from war. You're like, well, you see the world differently - Than I do.
Exactly. Right. And what's interesting is like, I could be in a room of a hundred people, but when the people talk that have gone to that like deep part of the, well, I'm just like, yeah. They're talking from like deep experience. Like it hits my heart. Like I can feel it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and like, this is the quest of life, I believe. Right. The quest of life is like this desire God has instilled in us to become more like him and realize that this is right.
Like on this infinity scale, it's barely even blip. Like it's amazing. All we're trying to really pack into this mortal experience. . Yeah. - So true. - It really is. And then we get frustrated by a bad year. Yeah. And it's like, okay dude, what's a bad year in context to let's just say your life, right? Or eternity. You know, it's, I I think - About, I think about the, my twenties, right? Where it is like, there's, there's so much going on. You're like trying to establish a career.
And I look back now, I'm like, I could have just done nothing during my twenties. And I, and from this standpoint, I, I wouldn't have really been worried. And I get, you know, I don't, but the, just in hindsight it's like, oh, I actually was just treading water. Like I had, I had no clue what God was really doing with my story. - So, and imagine the perspective that this is what God's doing. Right? Mm-Hmm. , he's granting us perspective as we go through this like, mortal experience.
Right? So, you know, during that period, like what was coming up for me is, is like I knew I needed to do something. I wasn't doing it certainty that I found comfort in my life was being removed in different ways. Right? Like everybody was experiencing that. Mm-Hmm. . And I had to make sense of it in some way. I had to put, there's this line that says the best way to heal a broken heart is to put it to work for something to do good in the service of other people. Right?
- Yeah. So I want, I wanna dig into that concept a little bit because there is this narrative in our culture and I think just in Christian culture of like, if you're having a hard time serve somebody else, right. Which I think is a sound principle. Yeah. But it - Almost - Almost - Gets overwork. Yeah. 'cause in the moment you're like, well that's not what I wanna do right now. Yeah.
- You're right. And I've talked with this about this concept with Steve Shields, uh, who's a therapist and he talks about the importance of doing our own work. And from a, and I can only speak from a masculine standpoint, from a male perspective, but that's, it feels almost so selfish. And so when somebody says, if you're having a bad day, go serve someone else. I'm like, great, I can do that. But to really go in this battle of the, the wintery doctrine right.
It's often an internal struggle and you don't know how to reconcile. And so you jump at it serving somebody else. Which, which again I endorse and is important however. Yeah. For men, I'm, I'm trying more and more with different episodes to really articulate this. 'cause I don't think men know it until they've gone on that journey where they feel what it's like to do their own work and they come back like, oh, I'm stronger. I'm more prepared. I can show up differently for my family.
Yeah. Now I'm ready to serve somebody. 'cause my cup is full before it was empty. Yeah. And I kept trying to feel it from these service things and it's like, that's not what they're for. That's right. You gotta go somewhere else and do your own work. Right. And, and I've seen you in that sort of philosophy that you believe in deeply. - Amen. Like you just said it like so well, like that's exactly right.
- So talk to the, the, that those men that are like, are sort of in that, you know, that physical cognitive distance, you feel like you almost can't even sit still because you feel like, ah, something's off in life. Even though you got the house, you got the job. Totally. You got the success. But like, speak to that as far as doing your own work concept. Like how would you approach that?
- Yeah. I think a good like groundwork to lay is that like, life is paradoxical when we can really grasp that idea. It starts to put a little framework on stuff, right? Because like so often you'll hear people talk about serving their mission and what do they say - Best two years of my life. - But in that moment, are they saying it's probably the best two years of life? - Like when they're Yeah. Knocking doors and Yeah.
- Probably not. Yeah. And I would even go to say like, there's probably more moments where it's like frustrating and challenging and all this stuff, however, right. Looking back in hindsight, it creates this foundation where you learn about yourself. You start to build a relationship with God. You are removed from your environment and everything that defines you. Mm-Hmm. . And you lose your identity, but you find your identity. Right? Paradoxical. Mm-Hmm. all this stuff.
And so like, you know, I think the interesting, the paradox of men is that we think we're so different. I'm so different than you because then I wanna go into my story, right? This, that, and everything. When the truth is, is like your story might be a little different than mine, but the feelings Mm-Hmm. That God has put in your soul and in your heart. That's universal. My brother Mm-Hmm. Like that ain't gonna change.
And these concepts paired with a gospel perspective, I believe is part of this whole becoming more like heavenly father thing. Mm-Hmm. . He's raising us up and we have to go through these things. I mean, imagine this, Kurt, of all the things I could learn in my mortal experience, right? Let's say I'm really smart. I'm a higher IQ than most people, which - I'm not . That's why you're in real estate. - Yeah, that's right. That's why I'm in real estate.
'cause I'm really good at just making people feel good. But I can't add math , But like in this grand scope, right? I live for 80 years. Okay? I have been confined to a mortal body. I've got, you know, my mind. Sure the spirit is teaching me things that are of the spirit. But when I really get on the other side, like the shackles are off from an int intelligence standpoint, it's like the matrix, right? Like God could plug me in and be like, I know kung fu now , right?
That's happen. The ma But it could also be like, oh, I understand the cosmos now. Mm-Hmm. , thanks heavenly father, that was great. Right? But he can't plug me into the matrix and go, okay dude, I want you to learn compassion. Here's the program for compassion. I have to experience it directly. Mm-Hmm. I want you to learn forgiveness. I want you to learn self-love. Because ultimately, like if you can't fully love yourself, right? It's hard to give from an empty Well yeah.
And like, we learn these things. Faith, not just faith. We learn faith in Jesus Christ. We learn what trusting God means in different levels when things don't go our way, paradoxically as much as when they do our way, if not more sometimes when they don't go our way. Right? Yeah. And it's like God knows exactly what he's doing. PS Satan knows exactly what he's doing and the things that I choose to give my presence to submitting myself and keep showing up. Like that's all I can do.
And so this concept, like for me, my time is early in the morning. I get up at five o'clock in the morning and from about five to about six 30, nobody bugs me. It's quiet. I can hear myself think my brain is clear. That's when I do my best thinking. Mm-Hmm. . And then what I know is, is that person, that's the person I choose to bring to my day. And then the gift that I'm trying to give other people is presence.
Mm-Hmm. . Not like I'm anything special, but in a world that's so fast with so many things coming at us, when somebody shows up and is present with you, it's sacred. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah. And that's really what the evolution project in my opinion really is. Yeah. - And let's go back to that timeline. 'cause this led into you creating this, this thing called the Evolution Project.
Totally. And how would you describe it? You know, - I'd actually say this is actually a really good precursor too. 'cause I know obviously you're really involved with Warrior Heart. Mm-Hmm. Warrior Heart, the first Warrior Heart. We, and these - Were the men's retreats that we did, - Shared a bunk bed that was awesome. Not the same bunk bed , but we were bunk mates there we were. Yeah. That was great. The first Warrior heart that I went to that was actually the pin prick in me.
Hmm. And the pin prick was, Brian, you should do something like this. And I was like, okay, that sounds cool. And then there was a series of events and reasons. I was like, no, not now. Not now, not now. Covid hits. I'm like, no, because it's hitting a point where it's like, it's sinking me in the ocean right now. There's something dying inside of me that I'm supposed to do. Mm-Hmm. . And so I started, and the truth is, is like you don't know what, you know, what you don't know.
And action is the best way to get outta your head. Yeah. - So in, in your mind at that point, like what were you trying to create like a, a men's retreat or a mastermind or how would you describe it? - Well, at the time I was trying to create a men's retreat, even though it's like there was like levels to it that I'd created in my mind Mm-Hmm. by the time I was like, I just want to go do something cool out in nature with a bunch of guys. And I'm not even sure what it is yet,
but like, this is what I wanna do. Yeah. - Actually, I think that's an important point that oftentimes as we're, we feel this dissonance, we're leaning in. There's not like a clear path that forms. It's like, just go do something. See what you learn. Right. Totally. And your first, the first evolution project that looks much different than the ones you do now. Totally. - Totally. And I think that's it, right? Like the how is where a lot of people get choked up in a lot of their dreams.
And I think, you know, that goes back to imposter syndrome that goes back into perfectionism, right? Self-sabotage all things. Mm-Hmm. that, you know, battles that I fight Right. Privately universal, I'm willing to bet. Right. Deep down we feel these things as a whole Mm-Hmm. in areas of our lives. And I think that's the cool part. I think the fallacy people believe is like the leaders on top of the mountain holding the flag victory posts.
Right. But the reality is the leaders right next to you on the mountain, usually they're may be one or two steps ahead. Right. But what gives them their stripes on the mountain is that they're on the mountain. Mm-Hmm. - They're in their, the arena has that - They're in the arena. Exactly, dude. Yeah. And like, that's what I love about the Evolution project because it gives me, you know, I do it a couple times in the spring and a couple times in the fall.
Okay. Yeah. And, uh, they're small groups. They're only eight to 12. Pretty intimate. Right? You've been, yeah. - It's - Great. But the intention is, is like the intention is to create a space in nature where people can connect, disconnect to reconnect. Right. We go through a few conversations and discussions. We do some different activities.
And the hope is, is at the end they have a fresh perspective and a mindset that they're coming back into their lives where they go, I see things a little differently. Right. And I believe no matter where you find yourself in this relationship with God, I am convinced that if a man goes in nature, God will find him. - Hmm. That's so true. - There's nothing that will convince me otherwise. I really believe that. I just believe that with my whole heart.
He will find you. And that's the cool part about the shifting. It's like, it's not my job to say, my job is to get everyone there. Mm-Hmm. , that's it. And make sure that we have food and we have some structure and we got some activities. That's my job. Yeah. But the reality is, is like there was an experience I had on the First Evolution project and it was about an hour before it started and all of a sudden anxiety hit me full - On. Like, what are you doing?
- I'm sitting in my truck and I'm like, literally like I can feel myself shrinking. 'cause the stories start, there's nothing you can do, Brian. These people are on their way. They're coming. You can't pull the plug anymore. - You're gonna be exposed. And - What's gonna happen when, and there were circumstances that were happening that there were some people coming that I kind of knew some background and I'm like, man, if these things come up right, I'm not qualified Mm-Hmm.
To solve their problems and all this stuff. Right. And I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna say prayer. And my prayer, the coolest, something I feel really grateful for the Lord, is that oftentimes the most profound spiritual experiences I've had in my life have been the shortest prayers. But they are raw - . - And that prayer in my truck was Heavenly Father, these guys are coming. I've worked really hard to make this day happen. Mm-Hmm. , I can't be like this right now. Can you just help me?
That's all I said, can you just help me? And I sat there and at this point I'm full on crying. Yeah, of course. Right. And I'm just sitting in my truck and I'm just like trying to breathe and I'm crying and all of a sudden I just get this peaceful feeling over me. And this thought comes in my head, it goes, it's about time, Brian. Thanks for inviting me. I've been here the whole time and I let go.
And that's like that to me, it's those moments where we co-create with God and we literally turn it over 'cause there is nothing we can do. - Yeah. And that experience, like, it's such a great example of, of what therapy really looks like, like what healing really looks like. 'cause I think a lot of men, they think, man, life's tough. Like I feel like I'm suffocating. Like I can't keep my head above water. I'm doing all these things. I can't stay up, stay up to pace at work.
And, and so I think I gotta see somebody. But, and nothing against, you know, talk therapy or, or formal therapy. I mean, there is a place for it and whatnot. But a lot of men are just like, okay, so like I set this appointment and I go, I go in and talk with somebody. Yeah. And then like, something magic happens. Like, it's hard. I don't know, I'm just speaking from a, a male experience that it's hard to really like connect that.
But then it's like, well, why don't you lean into something that kind of, you feel sort of pricked in your heart. Like there's a calling there and then you're sort of in your truck and then that's the therapy shows up through God. Yeah. Right. It's like, here it is. Right. And, and then, you know, sort of outside of that, what you're doing is, you know, you could have said, I worry about men and how they're struggling in life. I'm gonna go back to school, go get my master's degree.
Yeah. Gonna be a therapist. I'm gonna, and a lot of men go that way. Like Tony over bay, that's a, that was his path. Right. And he does great work there. But thanks Tony. There you go. . But for you it was, you're gonna create this, this experience. And again, you're not, you're, you don't advertise as therapy or anything like that, but it's like there's something about if we can just get men into the wilderness and allow God to show up, things will happen.
Totally. And the fact that you created this for men to consider and lean into, if there's a man out there that is really struggling, they're like, I just don't, the therapy thing is isn't calling to me like, try this, you know, worst case scenario, you get to hang out with Brian, you get some good food and Yeah. And you get away from the family a little bit. Right. Like whatever it is. But I think I appreciate, and that's why I wanna promote more and more of these types of experiences.
Yeah. Because men just need options to be like, okay, I can't do the therapy, but maybe I can do this. I'm gonna lean into there. Right. And see what comes out of it. Maybe you walk off the mountain thinking, yeah, I'll try something else. Or it's life changing. Right. - You know, the last evolution project, there's just one. 'cause this is one person's experience, but I've seen it a lot.
But it was very apparent. So one of the guys that came in, the last one, he's probably in his late fifties, early sixties. And what's interesting is blue collar, like grew up in New York, rough guy. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And he's got this pretty big wall around him. Well, as time goes on in the experience, like you can see the wall starting to get broke down at the very end. Right. It breaks Mm-Hmm. . Right.
And dude, I'm telling you like a broken humble heart in a man I think is like a beautiful, wonderful thing to experience because God smiles and goes, - Yeah, - Now we got some room that I can start to like really show you who you are. Right. And I think we all just want to feel like we're doing okay. Mm-Hmm. , I think we all want to feel like we're trying our best.
We're seeing progress in our lives and we're doing it, we're doing meaningful work in our own life and having impact on the people we love and care about the most and the way we show up. Right. I think that's a pretty universal thing. However people go about doing that. I am the biggest fan, like you just said, for anybody doing that because I said Warrior Heart, how many people has Warrior Heart impacted that have just come to it, right?
Yeah. And then I think about then look at like somebody like me, then I've gone on to take right concepts and thought, you know, but it's, it's a lot different. But like, have impact with other people and it's like, this is how goodness moves. Yeah. And like the net aggregate God's just sitting there going Amen. Right.
- Yeah. And I think, you know, we like to think on paper, God's engaging with our hearts through the elders quo lesson and oh, so and so read that quote from general conference and it just hit me and I went home and, and I was different. And sure that happens. But oftentimes, I mean, God is in the fabric of every part of mortality. Mm-Hmm. where he's, you know, trying to nudge his way into that, that work conflict, you know? But we're just not ready yet.
And, but we're not in the, you know, we're not in Elder's Corner. I can handle this, you know, I just didn't call this person and on go tell that person off or whatever, you know? Yeah. But then just these, it is just more of organic experiences. So anyways, these, these are just experiences. And I al I also want to reiterate people like as men come, like, you're not, these aren't like these forced therapeutic things. It's like you're here, you can sit there and observe. Yeah.
You may do some things you want, wanna lean into whatever. But I don't want men to feel like that, oh, this is gonna be weird. And Brian's gonna have me, you know, repel, uh, blindfolded off a cliff and, you know, to teach me a lesson. Like, it's, it's a very, it's just such a, we - Actually just throw you off the cliff. - the cliff. Okay. Okay. Alright. You signed the waiver for us. - Yeah, you're fine. It's okay. No one's died yet. So, - So anyways, so these happen.
Anything else worth mentioning that you've just felt your heart come alive as you do these things as, uh, one way to offer this to men and - Yeah. I mean, and if you ever wanna check [email protected], that's the website. Mm-Hmm. . Right. There's three rules that we try to follow at the Evolution Project that I believe fosters an environment. Um, - And I, I want you to hit on these, especially as people listen, like, think about.
'cause I think there's a lot of leaders out there that they're thinking in the context of Elders Core. Yeah. Like, Hey, maybe I'll go to Brian Singh, maybe I'll go to Warrior Heart, but like, what about like, what can I just do? - This is totally applicable. Yeah. So - Just think about these in that context. Right. - And I will say that in a day and a half period, I've had many men come up to me and said, I feel closer to these guys.
These guys know more about me than my neighbor that I've been living next to for five or 10 years. Right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But this is what I think part of the magical recipe is, number one, is that it's a safe environment, which means when I share something, it's between us. It doesn't give anyone permission to go air my laundry. Right? Now, oftentimes when we're speaking as men, we never own the sentence.
Right? So we say, you know, when you're, you're going out to your car and it starts raining. Man, I really hate when that happens to everybody. Right? It's like, no, you hate that. It happens. I love the rain. I go run around, you know, and get soaking wet. So we the second princip, so the first one is it's safe environment. Second principle is that we speak in I statements Mm-Hmm. . So we own our story.
When I'm talking about something, it's me. I, i, i, - And this is a really important concept, I think, and you hear this a lot in maybe therapy circles, whatnot, but really crucial in an ELLs quo. And again, you need that the leadership needs to create these boundaries of 'cause. Right? Now, if I said something crazy in elders quorum, I wouldn't doubt that most of the men would go and tell their wives on the way home in the minivan. Right. Exactly. And which 'cause that boundary hasn't been set.
So therefore I naturally hold back. Totally. I'm not gonna give everything in my heart. 'cause nobody's set that boundary. So sometimes it often for a leader to remind the group, like, I want you brethren to know, like the things we talk about here, we invite you not to talk about them anywhere else. Yeah. This is a brotherhood that we're forming and that that's crucial. And then this I statement, 'cause it's so easy to talk about people outside the room.
Totally. And like, oh, those people who really struggle with the commandments or, you know, pornography's such a issue in so many's lives. Yeah. But like, no talk about you Exactly in my life. And sometimes it's maybe you don't wanna talk about how you struggle with pornography, but speak from the eye Right. - When someone owns it. Mm-Hmm. that is actually the first step to any change. Mm-Hmm. , I am a hundred percent responsible for everything that is happening in my life.
The good things in my life. Give yourself a high five the bad things that are happening in my life own it. Mm-Hmm. . Right? Because like those things, things like I'm responsible indirectly or directly. Right. Third principle is that when someone's speaking, I don't have the right to cross coach you. Okay. So you say something, you give something, you share your heart. Then immediately I raise my hand and I'm like, yeah, Kurt, I had the same problem.
And when I, when I had that problem, I did this, that, and this, and it really helped me out. You should do that. Mm-Hmm. , what did I do? I immediately sucked all the air outta the room and I invalidated you publicly in front of all these other guys. Right? Yeah. Even though my heart was still trying to connect with you. Mm-Hmm. . So instead of doing that, when you say that, I just look at you and I touch my chest and all I'm saying is, is I feel what you're saying right now.
Now after the discussion, I could personally come up to you and go, I said, are you open for a reflection? Which means, are you okay if I share something with you that's personal about my life? You have the right to say no. Mm-Hmm. . No, I don't. Yeah. . And then I go, okay, dude. Yeah. I felt what you said today. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah.
But if you say that you do, that opens the dialogue where I can say, when you said that I felt this, I had a similar experience, it really brought some feelings up inside of me. Thank you for sharing what you shared today. So it's still no cross coaching, but it's connection. Right. And with those three simple principles, it's amazing what you start to see happen because we then ask everybody in the group, can we all play by these rules? Yep. Mm-Hmm. . And then we say, Hey, here's the deal.
If we find you talking in not I statements are is okay if we correct you? Yep. Mm-Hmm. . So we'll correct someone midline pattern interrupt. Yeah. But it starts to click in with the group. And then in a very short period of time, guys will say things like, man, I wasn't planning on saying this, but Right. Or they start going through it. And I asked a therapist one time, I said, look, I'm not a therapist. I'm not trying to make the evolution project a therapy session.
I said, how much of therapy is someone just talking out loud and having someone hear them? And he's like, I believe like a vast majority of men would do insane amount of healing if they just had that Mm-Hmm. , no coaching, no nothing. Just letting them talk out loud. - Yeah. I think most men just naturally, you know what they need to do.
It's not about like, yeah. Oh, I don't have the answers, but man, I just, that's just how we, we can process things of just like getting it through our, our lips, you know? - And Kurt, I would say too, the highest probability of action is when we receive personal revelation and take direct action on it. It's the way it's designed. Yeah. Right. And now that might be, I hear you say something triggers things in me.
I have my own little processing period, which we've added more time into that Mm-Hmm. And then I know what that means to me. Way better than I give you a list of here's 20 things you need to do in the next six weeks to make sure that you have Yeah. Really put this experience to Yeah. To the, to the test. - Now I wanna highlight, like, this is easier said than done. Like if you're an elders corn president, you're like, great, I'm gonna like lay out these three rules.
And again, they're the make it a safe place. Speak from the eye and no cross coaching. Right? Yeah. And it's very awkward, even as you do these in your evolution project in the beginning is just sort of like, ah, like, hey, you know, you're correcting people, whatnot. And so it may be awkward if people, if an elders quorum tried this type of thing.
But I would even say that even for the next few elders quorum lessons, like for individuals, just sit in the class and just be aware of like, oh, you know, he's, he's not speaking from the eye. Or you'll hear it a lot of, like, someone will take a vulnerable moment and then the next guy's like, well, in, in my life, I've, I just found like temple attendance really changed that for me. I just went to the temple. And again, it seems like a very sincere comment.
Yeah. And it's not bad, but it's like, oh, that's a cross coach. Like he's cross coaching them. Right. And so just being aware of it, and I, and it might be easier said than to actually facilitate this, but again, it's like, what are the rules of the meeting? Mm-Hmm. . And that's really the, maybe if, even if it isn't these three things, like in order to create safety, you have to have boundaries.
You have to have rules in a gathering of people or else people will not share who, they will not be authentic. And we sort of sit there like, how can I get my elders quo authentic? But it's like we haven't created any boundaries or rules for people to stay within the, the lines. - I totally believe that as we really figure out how to utilize Elders quorum, there will be massive changes for good. And I'm not saying like we're in a progress, right? What, what is this time continuum? Right?
I believe deeply that like if you were to ask me what's your goal with the Evolution project? I'm like, I just wanna wake men up so that when they go back into their lives, they act a little different. And then they spread that out through the thing. They create their own little pod with the elders quorum of guys that they're really trying to like lift everybody up, right. Or whatever that might look like.
But just living more authentically with God in their heart and in action and just that continual, it's, it's like what President Nelson's been continually teaching us, right? It's just this like, trust in God, receive personal revelation, go to the temple. Like, I mean, build momentum in your life, right? Yeah. These things, it's like he's hitting the nail on the head so hard right now. It's so clear for me.
And while I am not perfect, I am so grateful for the grace that God gives me in my effort of where I'm at right now. And that's a big turning point where I can, I can self-love and accept myself right now. It's not a down the road. Right? Yeah. That's something Actually Jeff and I have talked a ton about Grace. One day we were at lunch and I said, okay, - This is Jeff McCullough, the - Jeff McCullough, the pastor Jeff Pastor. Pastor Jeff. Yeah. Hello Saints. , maybe you've heard of them.
- . - We had a great lunch. And at the lunch I said, okay, Jeff, you got my ear. What don't I get about Grace? And it was the best conversation. It was really, really, really great. Mm-Hmm. And like, this is what I think about when I think about the body of Christ, right? The body of crisis. We're just all trying to be the best we can lift each other up, right? Like the net aggregate of God's work. It's, we're gonna win. The way we win though is like we become a Zion.
Like people Mm-Hmm. . And that could be through Warrior Heart, right? That could be these things too, right? I'm saying like, I, I'm not, they are not ordinances. Right? Like, this is not the temple at any means. This is not the church of Jesus Christ, Latterday saints. But if it enhances who I show up as when I go into the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and it makes me more disciple of Jesus Christ and it makes me have a Zion heart.
Amen. Yeah. Lord's gonna do his work inside and outside of the work. 'cause he's gotta gather a lot of people. Yeah. And it's gonna hit in different ways for different people. And so like, I just want to champion everyone around me because that's the desire that God has put in my heart. - Love it. Any other principle concept story that we missed or, I think we - Pretty well man.
I just want to tell you, I didn't really say this at the beginning, but dude, we've been friends for like, well over a decade now. Yeah. And, um, are just - Breaking up with me. - . Yeah. We're actually gonna have to define the relationship right now. . No, I was actually just gonna tell you how much I've enjoyed your influence in my life. You've been there a lot of checkpoints along the - Way. There was some divine movement in, uh, yeah. Connecting with each other for sure.
- It absolutely has been like that. So I really did want to express, I want you to receive my gratitude. Really, - It is received. Thank - You, - . - And, uh, I just wanna tell you that I, I love you and I love what you're doing and, um, you're building Zion people too, right? I hope so. - You are. - I hope so. I met 'em from Australia before I came in here. That's - Right. That's right. So, um, and I obviously, if people want to learn more about you, you mentioned My Evolution project.com.
- Yep. Right. And there'll be, uh, third week in April and, uh, middle of May, and it starts on a Friday morning at eight. We end at a three o'clock on a Saturday. The group's eight to 12 people, so it's not a big group. Right. I have a few people that help me do it. It's up at a place called Camp Oakley. It's gorgeous. It's got a river running through it and Yurts and it's owned by the Sorenson family. And they're so kind to let me go up there and use it. And, um, - Nice.
And like you said, people fly in from outta town, so this is just a Utah thing. Yeah, no, - I've had people from California and from Texas and from Idaho all attend. And I mean, my thing is, is like, uh, it's a conversation that's interesting to me and I'm gonna keep doing it. - Yeah. I love it. Love it. I I encourage people to check it out. And obvi you also mentioned, uh, warrior Heart, which you just came to our last bootcamp. Yes. Yes. And, and enjoyed that - By the way.
I'm bringing the leadership squad to the, I dunno if it's gonna be the Arizona one or the Okay. The one here. Cool. Yeah. But I want them to experience it. Yeah. - And I wanna say like one's better than the other. I'm, again, I'm just, I want promote as many of these opportunities out there. Yeah. Because I think, well they're, a lot of men don't know where to go to find this type of stuff. - And I say this like they are different experiences. Yeah.
Right. And I will tell you, I just went to a Warrior Heart in October. Mm-Hmm. the level that you guys are doing it at and how it's, I mean, I don't know, I'm not gonna go into like too much detail here, but profound. Profound. That's awesome. I mean, I really, you were there. Uhhuh, , I, you know exactly what I'm talking about right now. Yeah. I had a experience. I had a really big breakthrough. Cool. And Chris and Steve and Dan. Uh, Doug. Doug . Doug, - Sorry, Doug.
I mean there's, there's several staff members, but they are, it's - A solid squad. - Yeah. We come together and make it happen. And so like a warrior warrior heart's more of like, if you want to have this type of experience with a hundred plus men, that may excite you or you may, that may intimidate you. Then you may wanna look at maybe eight to 10, like the evolution project and start there. So one's not. Or you can come to one and go to the other totally or neither.
Or just listen to this podcast. And, and also I wanna mention if people are looking for an awesome realtor, be heard in utah.com. Right. So - be heard in utah.com and honestly, I really love it. Yeah. I promise you it will be an awesome experience working together. - Yeah. And a lot of it's like in between you're visiting different homes, you're talking about this, this kind of stuff, you know, and Yeah. And it's fun to you make - Those moments, you know what's cool?
I've embraced both in my life. There's a period of time where I felt like I gotta be like all in a real estate and talk about the evolution project over here, but not too many people . And then it was like, dude, maybe the evolution project's my calling in life and like, that's what I'm really supposed to do. And instead of this like, or I became an and yeah. And said, no, actually both can coexist in my life. I don't need to hide it. It's who I am.
It's making me a better real estate agent actually, because I'm connected with my heart and I feel alive again. Yeah. And like undivided, I feel undivided. Mm-Hmm. . - Yeah. So, awesome. Alright, last question I have for you is, as you reflect on your time in the Evolution project, I mean, this was a leadership calling, even though it wasn't one that maybe they sustained you in sacrificing for , but nonetheless it's a leadership calling. So I was being a leader Yeah.
Helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ. - Oh dude. It's a constant mirror. And I learn through other people and heavenly father will serve it up as much as I want. If I go to him and say, alright dude, I'm, I'm ready. Teach me and be okay, I'll serve it up to you. What I found is I keep getting the lesson until I learn the lesson. And then when I think I've learned the lesson, I get a test that if I really learn the lesson and then he teaches me the next thing.
But it's usually through other people mixed in with my own work. Right. And you can't lead people where you haven't been. That's the bottom truth. That's why I'm such a believer in you gotta go into the dark parts of you. You've gotta go into the shadows because until you've explored the shadows, you can't fully embrace your light. I believe that's true. And I believe doing that with Jesus Christ and the atonement of Jesus Christ, it is a holistic, pure process.
He wants to make us whole. We can become whole. We've gone through these things for a reason. When you can put meaning to pain, right, or things that haven't gone your way, all of a sudden it transforms and it becomes something super beautiful. And that's, I just believe in that to my bones. - Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good? You know, I tend to pinch myself that this is what I get to do.
I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it. Drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode.
I mean, you're not done with the dishes or mowing the lawn or working out. So you might as well keep it going at the bottom of those show notes. And, uh, make sure you listen to each one, maybe a couple times on a few of 'em. Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff Reer by visiting leading saints.org/fourteen. - It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration was made concerning the own and only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.