James Laughlin 00:00
Welcome to lead on purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven-time world champion, musician, and night executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today on investing yourself. Enjoy the show
James Laughlin 00:39
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James Laughlin
I don't know about you, but sometimes I get home. And I think what I am eating tonight is the last thing I want to do. I don't know what to cook, I don't know what's in the cupboard or in the fridge. And it often leads to poor choices like ordering some takeaway. So recently, Carolyn and I started eating green dinner table, and it's absolutely amazing. After a long day, when I'm knackered, I know that when I get home, there's going to be a great recipe and all the ingredients I need right there in the fridge. And look, I absolutely love it. I've been doing it for several months. And it means I don't have to think at the end of the day. And I just know that I'm going to get good, nutritious, wholesome food. And look, it's plant-based, which has so many benefits. So, if you're a meat eater, perhaps you might want to start on maybe just three, a three-day plan. So, you've got three evening meals for you and your partner or you and your family depending on what option you want to go for. But the food is delicious. It's so nutritious, and it means we don't need to think. And as leaders of families, teams, and organizations, what we put in our bodies is just so crucially important, so I urge you to go and check it out and I want to give you 20% off your first order. So, you can go to greendinnertable.co.nz and use the coupon code purpose.
James Laughlin 03:51
Time Magazine named him one of the top 100 most influential people in the world. Men's fitness hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. Dean Karnazes has pushed his body and mind to inconceivable limits. Among his many accomplishments, he has run 50 marathons in all 50 US states in 50 consecutive days. He's run 350 continuous miles forgoing sleep for three nights. He's also run across the Sahara Desert in 120-degree temperatures. He's run to the South Pole in negative 40 degrees. On 10 different occasions, he's run a 200-mile relay race solo racing alongside teams of 12. He's won the world's toughest foot race. The Badwater ultramarathon runs 135 Miles nonstop across Death Valley in the middle of the summer. He has raced and competed on all seven continents of this planet twice over. You know, his adventures have been featured everywhere you can imagine New York Times, The Late Show with David Letterman, The Today Show, The BBC, and the list goes on. I am so honored and privileged to share today's episode with you, whether you're into sport and you into running, you run a company, or you want to be a better parent, this episode is going to be such an insight into what it means to take one step at a time towards the ultra-marathon of your life, whatever that might be. So, sit back and enjoy the show.
James Laughlin 05:45
Dean, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose Podcast.
Dean Karnazes 05:51
Oh, thanks for having me as a guest, I never really considered myself a leader, but some of your other guests certainly are.
James Laughlin 05:58
You're the ultimate leader. And I really firmly believe leadership starts with self, we can't lead others until we lead ourselves. And when we start to look at your achievements, your mindset, your grit, I mean, you’re the ultimate self-leader. So, before we get into that, I'd love to ask you, when you think of leadership, what comes to mind?
Dean Karnazes 06:23
I think, to me, a leader is someone who sets a good example. And I think that your opening comment speaks to me because I'm Greek, and I studied classics. And you know, Socrates famously said to Plato, you know, before you go about changing the world, change yourself. And I think what you said speaks so much to that point.
James Laughlin 06:48
That's incredible. And it's interesting. So, for the listener, that's new to you. I want to just give them one very clear fight. You ran 50 marathons in all 50 US states in 50 consecutive days, right?
Dean Karnazes 07:05
And I'm still alive. Yeah, yeah.
James Laughlin 07:10
Yeah. How the hell are you still alive after that? It's incredible. So self-leadership on that journey, that's you’ve, you've run so many incredible, challenging races. But on that journey, in particular, 50-50-50, what did you learn about yourself?
Dean Karnazes 07:29
You know, I learned that I was better than I thought I was and that I could go further than I thought I could. So, I had obviously a lot of doubts going into it, because people were uncertain whether it was possible, and I was uncertain whether it was possible. And I said, you know, all you can do is get up every morning and have the same commitment to be the best Dean that Dean can be just to give it your all, from the moment you wake until the moment you go back to sleep. And just applying that, you know, that very simple formula, just I'm going to be the best I can be at every moment, for 50 days. Got me through it. So you know, I learned that great things don't happen in you know, at once they happen over time they accumulate and 50 days of a marathon and prove to me that, you know if you have that stick to itiveness if you have the same commitment just to be the best that you can give it your all that you can achieve greatness.
James Laughlin 08:34
That's amazing. And when I think of that, the idea of incrementalism comes to mind that, you know, building up to doing 50 marathons in 50 consecutive days, that would be you know, multiple years or decades of incrementally committing to self-discipline to running, right?
Dean Karnazes 08:53
I think, again, going back to my Greek roots, you know, we are we basically are that some of our habits, so the things we do, to your point, every moment, every day, incrementally build us into who we are. And certainly, the 50 marathons are a prime example of that.
James Laughlin 09:13
I'd be the listener listening right now going. Why 50 marathons? You know, what was the internal driver to do that? So, for you, what was it that you were setting out to do? Personally, I know that you get the 50 and 50 and 50. But there's something internally that intrinsic driver, what was that that was really driving you?
Dean Karnazes 09:34
I think it was curiosity. I think that to me, running is a pursuit of excellence. And to me, running is about pushing the limits of, you know, breaking down limitations. And I thought if I can do this, I'll prove to myself that really nothing is impossible, and these lessons would carry over from running into life. That was one of the drivers, you know, the other driver was that I didn't want it to be just about me, I wanted to involve other people because I thought, you know, if I go out and do this, that's great. I can pound my chest and say, look what I did. But I thought it would be more powerful if I invited others to come and join me at marathons along the way, and then engage other people to kind of life vicariously through this experience. So, over the course of the 50 marathons, I had, you know, several 1000 runners come out and join me some for more than one marathon, a couple actually ran six marathons with me six of the 50. And it was great it was it just made it about more than just me it gave it a bigger, deeper meaning, it was a richer event, I think because others could participate.
James Laughlin 10:50
And it's beautiful. And in terms of the team around you, you know, when we talk to your family, when I read a runner's high, you know, I got a really strong feeling that family sets front and center for you, you think a lot about them, before running, during running and after. So that journey for your family, what's that been like, when you've been running? You've been, you know, pushing the limits personally and physically, how has that impacted positively or negatively those connections within your family?
Dean Karnazes 11:21
I hope I've set a good example, especially for my kids, because, you know, they've always known me as this crazy ultra-marathoner that's been out, you know, doing these, you know, these seemingly impossible endeavors around the globe. I mean, you know, I've run a marathon to the South Pole, I've run across Death Valley in the middle of summer, you know, I've done things that are pretty outrageous. And I think the biggest lesson is that I still love it, even after doing it for 30 years, almost three decades of running ultra-marathons. I still get up every morning and have, you know, a longing to pursue these incredible and adventurous sorts of pursuits. So, I think that commitment, and that lifelong devotion to my passion, hopefully, has shown them that, you know, you can make your dreams come true if you work hard enough.
James Laughlin 12:23
I love that. And you mentioned something a moment ago, just around those perceived limits and those limitations, you're surprised that you can push through those. So where are those limits? Where do you believe those perceptions and do those limits come from that we place upon ourselves?
Dean Karnazes 12:41
Yeah, that's good, that's a really good question. And I think we look around us, and we look at what others are achieving, or not achieving. And that's kind of how we set the ceiling for how high we can climb. And I think only through, you know, biting off more than you can chew or taking on more than you thought you were capable. Do you, you know, break down those limitations? You know, I think you need first to know your limitations and be aware of those before you can exceed them. So, to me, you know, running one marathon was hard enough. The thought of, you know, running maybe 10 marathons in a row was daunting. And the idea of running a marathon in every US state and 50 consecutive days was terrifying and seemingly impossible. So, you know, I set my sights on that. And somehow, you know, 50 days later, I got through it.
James Laughlin 13:47
It's incredible. And those moments of self-doubt, like whether we're on a sports field, whether we're running a corporation. We have self-doubt. So, for you, when the self-doubt creeps in, like, Oh, I'm so sore. I've got to stop. I can't go any further. Were there any mental moves, any self-talk, or anything that used a strategy that helps you to push through that self-doubt?
Dean Karnazes 14:12
Yeah, I mean, I knew my goal. I knew what I was trying to achieve. So, I knew the, you know, the direction I was heading. And there were certainly many moments along the way where I thought, you know, I can't do this. I mean, I remember getting out of bed on marathon number 19. And I couldn't even put my foot on the floor. My feet were so tender. My legs hurt so much. I couldn't get out of bed. And I thought you can't even you know, make it from this hotel bed to the sink. You know, how are you going to run a marathon today, let alone 31 More marathons and 31 days? And at that point, you know, I said, Okay, you know what's expected? The problem is that you're thinking too much. Don't think just execute. So, I tried my best to be in the here and now. And you know, in the present moment of time not to think about the future, not to reflect on the past, you know not to be checking off boxes on how many marathons I'd completed and how many were left to go, just to be the very best I could be in that instant of time. So, I got very granular, I'd said, you know, just get to the sink, splashing water in your face, okay. You know, go to your kit and put on your, your running gear, you know, lace up your shoe, one shoe at a time, you know, get out the door, get to the starting line, you know, take a step, when the gun goes off, take another step. And really, that was how I did it. I was in the here and now and not thinking about the future, just knowing that the goal is 50 marathons. And, you know, to get there, you need to be the best you can be at every moment. And that's how I did it.
James Laughlin 15:56
Such great insights and I think that we can all apply them in any field. And I wanted to ask you as well, I see that you work with a lot of incredible companies, some of the world's greatest companies. So how can the lessons you've learned from running be applied to the business world?
Dean Karnazes 16:14
Well, you know, I think that to me, having worked with so many companies, so many great brands, over the years, you know, I've learned a lot of things. One, I've learned that people change, you know, that when you work with a company for decades, you know, there's a lot of employee turnover. So, a lot of those relationships, you know, get reshuffled or lost along the way. But I think the things that stick are really authentic more than anything else. I think that as a marketer myself, people can spot hypocrisy, people are really sharp and perceptive. And I think the message, of being authentic of, you know, walking the walk and talking the talk is, is the greatest message that great companies bring to their customers and their fans. And there's just there's no way around that authenticity, you know, Flash glamour, you know, Buzz, all that stuff is kind of short-lived. But it always to me gets back to you know, are you authentic? Do you know, if are you using the products? Do you love the products? Are you continually, you know, trying to improve upon the products and the messaging? So, that's the biggest lesson for me. It's just to be authentic. And, again, I think that comes back to my Greekness. You know, the Oracle at Delphi just said, you know, know thyself, and be thyself. So, I've learned, you know, over the course of several decades, you know, doing what I do, I've learned about who I am. And I've learned just to be who I am.
James Laughlin 17:58
And it's interesting because I honestly think that a lot of listeners right now will be asking, like, who am I? How do I figure out who I am? So, this idea of pushing yourself physically, really, really intense ways through ultra-marathon running? Or for others, it may be F 45. For others, it may be rolling, hill climbing, or whatever it might be. How can that physical endurance and pushing yourself past your limits help you discover who you truly are?
Dean Karnazes 18:28
Yeah, that's a very good question. And, you know, I say that everyone who's interested in and truly growing needs to run a marathon. And a lot of people say, oh, that's, that's impossible, I got someone else I could never run a marathon. And that's why you need to run a marathon. Because you think it's impossible. And the marathon teaches you so much about yourself, I guarantee you that you'll cross the finish line as a different person than the one that was starting at the starting line. You, learn about who you are through, basically breaking yourself down, and adversity. So how do you confront adversity? What do you do when things really, really hurt, I'm and I'm talking really hurt. And you're really beat up and you're in so much pain, you don't think you can take another step forward? That's when you see your true colors. You see how you respond to it; you see how you react, and you learn. And you know, not everything you, see? You might like I mean; you might decide you're going to drop out of a race and not finish the marathon. And that's very revealing. And that's, you know, that's as powerful in his profound lesson as finishing the marathon. So, I just think that to know yourself, you really need to push yourself and to me, the best way to push yourself is through physicality and the simplest form of physicality is running. It doesn't get any simpler, you know, you can just walk out your front door and start running and see how far you can go.
James Laughlin 20:10
And for the person that goes, no, you know, I've got an injury, it's been there for years. What's your response to that person that comes up with self-obstacles and excuses?
Dean Karnazes 20:23
You know, I think the only excuse is you, you know, I hear that all the time, well, I've got this niggle in my knee, or, you know, I've got a bad back. And, you know, I usually don't comment on such a thing, because, you know, if someone's overweight, and they say, I got a bad back, well, maybe you need to lose a bit of weight and start doing, you know, sit-ups and exercising. But I think that the people that are listening to this saying, oh, I could never do it, because I've got this issue or that issue, I think they're the ones who really need to do it the most. So, you know, sort of a medical issue where, you know, you got a pain in your knee or something like that, if it's just you know, some niggling in your back are you just, you know, you've never been a good runner, quote, unquote, or you just don't like to run. I think that those are the very reasons you need to take on the marathon.
James Laughlin 21:22
I love it, setting the gauntlet down, I love it so good.
Dean Karnazes 21:28
And I promise you, you'll hate me at the finish, but you also love me at the finish.
James Laughlin 21:32
Well, then I've never run a marathon. In fact, my partner, Caroline, is going to support her at the Queenstown marathon, neck by the end of this month. So, I think you're, you're inspiring me to maybe actually set a line in the sand for next year, and actually do a marathon, get signed up, and start training.
Dean Karnazes 21:52
Yeah, I mean, I think that if you go to a marathon and spectate, it's infectious, there's just something about watching others, kind of in the battle, that makes you want to join in and be part of it. So, you know, I encourage you to be there for her and cheer her on and maybe get absorbed in the energy of it. And, you know, the first thing I always say to people is to sign up, you know, choose a race at an appropriate duration in the future, maybe six or nine months, and register. Yeah, and that's commitment. Once you've signed up, then you know, I've got a goal ahead of me. And it’s kind of, you know, reverse engineers you into taking action.
James Laughlin 22:39
That's interesting because I was also wanting to ask you about vision, like how important it is to have a clear vision. And I firmly believe once we have visions, we can reverse engineering from there, but for you in your life, you know, when you go to those and do those big goals? Have you always been clear on hey, that's what I want to do? That's why I want to do it, or has there been haphazard?
Dean Karnazes 23:04
Well, no, I mean, I think that, to me, there's this idea of never stopping exploring. So, to me running, you know, is as much about adventure and exploration as it is about the act of putting one foot in front of the other, you know, running is a simple act, but it's a very diverse sport. You know, there are people that run 100-meter dashes, and there are runners, you know, there are 10,000-meter runners, you know, then there are marathon runners, and then there are people like me, ultra-marathon runners, it might run for, you know, two or three or four days, you know, at a time, and that's a very different pursuit. So, to me, I like combining travel, with running, and that's why I look for adventures that are in unusual or, you know, unexpected places, to do these sorts of ultra-marathons. And I think, to me, it's fascinating as well, as you know, it stirs the emotions for anyone who hears about something like that, or, you know, sees a video or, you know, even an Instagram post, it's inspiring. Because you're being adventurous with your life. And I think that everyone likes some creativity and adventure in their life, no matter, you know what you're doing.
James Laughlin 24:30
I 100% agree. And when you're doing an ultra-marathon, so when we think of a marathon, we're like, whoa, that's long. But when we're thinking of ultra like overnight, sometimes multiple nights. I mean, the mind must go into overdrive, and there must be some deep thinking. So, in your experiences, you know, what's been one of your toughest or darkest moments mentally when you've been doing a multiple-day race?
Dean Karnazes 25:00
I've had a lot of hallucinations. You know, I've seen dinosaurs off in the distance. You know, I've had hallucinations talk to me. I remember running across Death Valley one time, and I became extremely dehydrated. And I throw my electrolytes out of balance. And I saw an old miner 40 niner, walking across the road toward me, you know, one of the gold miners from California with a big gray beard, he had overalls, and I noticed he was carrying a gold pan. And when he reached me, he held up the gold pan. He said water, water, I need water. And I was carrying a handheld water bottle, and I turned it over to aspirate some water into a gold pan. And I heard the water sizzling on the pavement, and I realized it was a hallucination. So, I've certainly, yeah, that was pretty far out.
James Laughlin 26:02
That's amazing. And how do you respond to adversity? Those tough moments that really test you what's your response under extreme adversity?
Dean Karnazes 26:14
Yeah, again, you know, people say what do you think about when things get really, really tough? And I don't think I think thinking is the problem. Because you start to rationalize, you start to make sense of it, you try to start to try to figure out what's going on. And, that just cascades doubt. So, when things get really, really tough again, I just turn very much inward and just focus on the here and now the present moment of time. And literally just say, take your next step to the best of your ability. Take your next step to the best of your ability. You know, early this year, I ran 100 miles, or you know, 162-kilometer race in Patagonia in South America. And in the middle of the night, a snowstorm moved in, and I was up in the mountains on this on this ridgeline and it was sleeting and snowing sideways. And it was the middle of the night. And it was a very steep ridge line on either side of me. There were really steep cliffs. And you know, I had a headlamp on, and I had, you know, full Gore-Tex kit. And the wind must have been blowing, you know, 30-40, maybe 50 kilometers an hour. And everything was just rattling. I mean, I couldn't hear. I couldn't see because the snow was blowing sideways, and my light was just illuminating this blowing snow. And, you know, I had no idea how long the storm would last. What could I do besides just focus on taking my next step to the best of my ability? So, I literally tuned out everything, except for my foot and the ground in front of me. And that went on for about four hours. We're all I did. I didn't think of anything except where your foot is going to go. Where's your next footstep going to go? Where's your next footstep to go? And it's almost like a Zen-like trance you put yourself into and you really forget about the pain. You forget about how much further you've got to go you forget about everything. And when you come out of something like that, it's very cleansing actually, you feel almost rejuvenated and reborn because for a few hours you've kind of been removed from reality. And to me that you know, it just kind of rebirths you in a way.
James Laughlin 28:42
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James Laughlin 29:54
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James Laughlin 31:00
That's incredible. And as you're saying that I'm really thinking about, let's say someone who's in professional sports, or even say, running a business, and they've got an ultra-marathon, and that's in the form of a large project or a yearlong goal. And along the way, they're feeling a little disoriented or tired. So, with your ultra-marathon running, do you take breaks? Do you slow to a walk when required? You know, do you take the time to refuel? Are there certain things you do just to make sure you can get across the finish line?
Dean Karnazes 31:36
Absolutely, I mean, I have a quote, you don't have to go fast, you just have to go. So, you know, there are highs and lows. And, you know, an ultra-marathon is like a big business project. It is daunting, it's overwhelming, it's seemingly impossible. And you know, you go into it, you know, when the gun goes off, you know, you're screaming out of the gate, you're cheering there's a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of adrenaline, you know, but that wears down and wears out and trying to keep the momentum. At the midpoint when things really suck. You know, when there's a lot of self-doubts like you can, you know, are you going to be able to finish that's, you know when a character is built, that's when you really see what you're made of and who you are.
James Laughlin 32:25
And that narrative, you know, the self-talk that incantations affirmations? Is there anything that you've used, it's really helped you just to push forward to that next step?
Dean Karnazes 32:39
You know, I think that I mean, I think I'm not the only one that does this, but you kind of start referring to yourself in the third person, you know, like, you can do this kind of talking to someone else like you can do, you've been here before, you, it's been this bad before you can do this. So, I just keep saying you can! You can! You can! And whether that helps or not, or whether that just helps to put your mind in the current moment, instead of thinking about the future or anything else. I'm not quite sure. But the other thing that I've really learned to appreciate is, you know, there's a saying, embrace the suck. Yeah, really, when things get really bad, like, saying to myself, this, I don't know, if it's ever been this horrible like this, this is so miserable. This is so bleak, it's fantastic. Like, I've never been this low, I've never had things this bad. So really, you know, experiencing the full range of human emotions, you know, from the high of the starting gun going off, just to the low of the misery of being stuck on, you know, on a ridge in a snowstorm freezing, uncertain. If you're going to live through the night, you know, to go back to the hive of crossing the finish line and having a medal put around your neck.
James Laughlin 34:04
Love that. And Dean, I remember something from the book. It was really it really touched me, and you said running taught me that the pursuit of a passion mattered more than the passion itself. And I just wanted to ask you what you know, what that meant to you, and why the pursuit of a passion is so important.
Dean Karnazes 34:25
Yeah, I think that you know, I'm a runner, and that's what I am. It's a simple act. It's nothing intellectual, it's nothing sophisticated, but it's who I am. And I pursue that to the best of my ability with heartfelt intensity with all of my faculties entirely committed to being the best runner that I can be. And I think that's brought a lot of internal satisfaction and a lot of internal rewards. You know, I think you know, someone who's aspiring to be a Nobel Prize winner, they're certainly just as committed, maybe more so committed than I am. And that's, you know, bringing them a lot of rewards. Not everyone's going to win a Nobel Prize. You know, not everyone's going to be, you know, the president of a country. But everyone can be the best that they can be, whatever their pursuit might be. So, I think everyone loves something. And I always say to people, when they say, you know, I'm not satisfied with my life with my career. I always say to them, you know, just on a piece of paper, freeform, write down if you woke up tomorrow morning, and your life was exactly as you wanted it to be, what would that look like? You know, where would you live? Would you like to know what car would you be driving? What would you be doing? And a lot of people think, Oh, that's easy. You know, it'd be drinking margaritas in Tahiti, but then they really think it through, and they think that really wouldn't be that fulfilling? I'd like to be a blank, whatever that might be. And I think that everyone can answer that question. Like, I really, this is who I am, you know, I want to be a poet, or I want to be a basket weaver, whatever that is, if you pursue that, to the best of your ability, it's going to bring you fulfillment.
James Laughlin 36:26
And that really aligns with what you said at the start of our conversation, just around being in pursuit of excellence. And it's, you know when I think of you when I read your book, that when I see what you've done in your career, that you're constantly in process constantly in the pursuit of that excellence.
Dean Karnazes 36:44
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I like writing as well because you just cannot write the perfect book. And writing is every bit as hard as an ultramarathon if not, if not more difficult. So, you know, I like these pursuits where, you know, it's a process, you know, you can never write the perfect book that you're always needing just to improve upon, you know, the things you've already said and written. And, and that, to me is, you know, it's it talks about the journey being more rewarding than, you know, crossing the finish line.
James Laughlin 37:24
And it's so true. When you look at any great journey, it's the journey that you remember, it's not necessarily the gold medal at the end, right?
Dean Karnazes 37:32
Yeah, that's so true. And, you know, the other thing that I think a lot of people overlook is, it's the little moments in life that we most cherish. I mean, I look back on my career, and, yeah, I've been on the podium and, you know, have accolades. You know, I've, you know, I was, yeah, I've won a lot of awards, that kind of thing. And those were, those are gratifying moments. But, you know, when I look back at the times where, you know, it's running with my daughter, you know, the first 10k, we did, on her 10th birthday, we ran a 10k together, and it was that moment that I cherished the most.
James Laughlin 38:16
That's beautiful. That's so lovely. In the book, you talked as well, about Nicholas coming along to one of the big races and what it meant to you and what it meant for your connection with him. So, what are some of those other magic moments that you've shared with your family?
Dean Karnazes 38:36
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a journey. And, you know, no runner is an island. I mean, anyone listening to this, who's a runner or an athlete knows, you know, it's a very divisive pursuit. I mean, you're out there by yourself. It's very self-absorbing. So, you know, this brings people together, it blows relationships to smithereens. And thankfully, my running has brought my family together. And, you know, I've taken them on almost all of my adventures. I mean, they, my kids were with me for the 50 marathons in 50 states. My mom is a retired schoolteacher, and she would get the lesson plans for my kid's school every week, and they would do their homework with her. So, you know, they've grown up in this kind of atmosphere. And you know, it's quirky, it's a different type of lifestyle. And I hope that that's captured in my books. I mean, you know, so many of my books are about family. And I think that you know, the family is so important and thankfully my family is fairly colorful, so they make a good cast of characters.
James Laughlin 39:50
It's brilliant just to hear the banter between your mum and your dad. Yeah, the trips away that you have I thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, they've just highlighted so many inspiring quotes and takeaways in the book and one that really stuck out was really simple but profound running a marathon doesn't just build character, it also reveals it.
Dean Karnazes 40:16
Yeah, and I think again, that's why I encourage people to sign up for a marathon because it reveals character to you to yourself. And you know, you learn about your weaknesses and your vulnerabilities. And I think until you expose yourself to those, you don't really know who you are.
James Laughlin 40:35
And when you do, expose those which you have, what's the next step? What's that next foot forward in terms of, hey I've been exposed to I know where I'm vulnerable, I know where, you know, there's going to be an ugly side, there is a shadow, what's the next step? What do you do with that?
Dean Karnazes 40:51
I think you can improve upon it; I think when you look more deeply into your character and the flaws that you notice, you're more aware of it, I think, you know, improving self-improvement starts with awareness. And, again, you can't be truly aware of yourself until you put yourself in very adverse situations. And once you have, you know, those traits revealed, you can work on them, you know, you're aware that I'm kind of, you know, I am not as gritty as I thought I was, and I give up a little bit too easily. Or I'm too quick to make excuses. You know you learn, you learn this about yourself. And you know, in future pursuits. When you're in a similar situation, you reflect back and you say, you know, I made the excuse and got out of it last time I was here, but this time, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stick it out. So again, I think that running a marathon increases your self-awareness tenfold.
James Laughlin 41:55
And the grit, if we look at any field, the people who would be regarded as greats tend to stay in the game a lot longer than their competitors. So, for you, how do you remain entirely in the game and throughout your season of running, your life of running? How have you remained in the game?
Dean Karnazes 42:21
I don't know if it's boneheaded determination, and discipline, because people say, you know, it's amazing that you've been doing this for three decades, and you're, you still love to run. And they say are there ever moments where you just don't want to run? And yeah, there are plenty of moments. And at those moments, I forced myself to run. So, I love the pursuit of physical excellence. And I guess, it's in my DNA. But yeah, I mean, I looked through these, you know, I just saw a list from men's health of like, the 50 fittest people in America. And, I'm on the list. And the low one says, No one says, Hey, this guy's he's 60 years. I mean, you're looking at these other people, they're, you know, they're mostly in their 20s or some people in their 30s. Or they're saying, you know, these people in their 30s are kind of getting old. And they're kind of, you know, their game is over. And here's this, like, the 60-year-old guy that's still running 100-mile ultra-marathons, but it never gets that never gets mentioned. I'm just still on these lists. And I kind of see these lists, and I look and I kind of laugh to myself, like, how am I still on this list when everyone else is, you know, 20 or 30 years younger than me?
James Laughlin 43:45
I think that's amazing.
Dean Karnazes 43:48
Well, yeah, the other thing is that, you know, I know that physical fitness is so important in what I do, and physical health. So, you know, my whole lifestyle revolves around activity and fitness. I mean, even right now as we're doing this interview, I'm standing up, I never sit down. From the moment I get out of bed in the morning until the moment I go back to sleep. You know, I'm doing all my writing standing up at my gym, I've got an outdoor gym, and it's, I'm looking out the window at my gym. So, I've made it very easy for me to be active. And I think that that has been conducive to my longevity.
James Laughlin 44:30
Hmm, it's interesting. You say that I was chatting with Dr. Haley Perlus a few months ago and she works with Olympians and sports psychologists we were talking about developing the habit of movement and exercise. And she suggested, look, a lot of people say that they'll do five days on two days off. And her feeling was that no. What you want to try and achieve is every day, move your body and make it a daily habit, even if it's 15 minutes, but just move so what do you do to keep that momentum happening? Is that a daily commitment to movement? Is that four on three off?
Dean Karnazes 45:06
No, it's I mean, it's a daily commitment. And, you know, I kind of have been following this somewhat, you know, hard, easy regime. And that's a very high level. So, you know, like, a couple of days ago, on Sunday, I did a really hard 50-kilometer run. And yesterday, I did a very easy five-kilometer walk, jog, if you will. So, every day does something, but some days, push much harder, and other days, go a little bit easier. You know, people say, you know, learn to listen to your body. If I listened to my body, I'd be sitting on the couch, you know, eating potato chips, and drinking beer, right? I mean, that's what you want to do and that's, you know, what's going to bring you the most pleasure. But you know, to me, it's about turning into the fact that every day I'm going to get up and move. And again, I encourage people to listen, just try it a couple of days a week, try saying that you're, you're not going to sit down from the moment you get out of bed until the moment you go back to sleep. Now, you know, obviously, if I'm getting in a car to drive somewhere, or if I've got to fly somewhere, I'm sitting down. But on those days, when you don't have to sit down, try standing all day. Just something simple like that. And I mean, bounce around on your toes, and see how you feel after standing up all day.
James Laughlin 46:35
Well, Dean, I just got off my stool, and I'm standing. I'm listening. I love it. What's next for you? What? What excites you? What's on the cards for the next 12 months that gets you phased and excited?
Dean Karnazes 46:54
You know, I mean, this, this is going to be very random to you. And maybe unexpected, but I just finished writing a screenplay. Hollywood screenplay. Yeah.
James Laughlin 47:07
Well done.
Dean Karnazes 47:09
Yeah, but it's not it's, I mean, I've you know, I've written two screenplays. Now, the first was one based on my first book, Ultra Marathon Man. So, you kind of know the story. If you read my book, you kind of know the storyline of that movie. And that's more linear. The second script I just wrote is about Socrates, the ancient philosopher. So, it's really about it said in 400 BC, in ancient Athens, and it's quirky, it's unexpected. And it also combines life lessons with the storyline. So, you know, my goal was to write a story that was, you know, from the moment, you know, the opening scene to the closing scene, you're just, you're glued to the screen. And part of that, to me, was, you can't use a movie about an ancient philosopher, you can fill it with action scenes. So, I thought, if there's no killing if there's no bloodshed if there's no action, how do you hold the audience's attention? And I thought, you know, you educate them and quirky in unexpected and profound ways. So anyway, as you can tell I'm very passionate about this. And I just, I just finished it. So that is, you know, kind of absorbed my passions for the past year on and off as I've been working on it, concurrently, planning another run a long run with a friend of mine, from the lowest point on Earth to the highest point on Earth. So, we're looking at probably 2024, because we're working with a film production company that's going to document it, but that's in the works. So, you probably know the highest point on Earth. Yeah, and it's not a trick question. It's Mount Everest, and the lowest point on Earth is the Dead Sea. So, we're going to try to run either depending on the route we choose, either about 3000 miles or about 5000 miles from the Dead Sea to the top of Mount Everest.
James Laughlin 49:23
Wow. I imagine not only will there be logistics challenges, but there'll be geopolitical challenges to be essential threats to your personal safety.
Dean Karnazes 49:35
Well, that's and that's why I said it's either about 3000 miles or 5000 miles because the shorter route goes through Iraq and Iran. And the State Department, the US State Department is saying, no, you're not going to be able to do this. And so, the longer route is going up through the stands, you know, You, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan. But it's funny, I've, you know, mentioned this endeavor in a couple of interviews. And I have so many people, especially from Iran, that have contacted me on social media and said, look, you have to come through our country, like, it's, there are runners here, and we're just like you, and we will meet you guys at our border, and we will have 100 people running with you every day, across our country. And, to me, that is that this speaks to something higher than our differences. You know, it's this running, uniting people that, you know, the very simple act of, you know, putting one foot in front of the others is something universal. Yeah, you know, the God we worship might be different, the color of our skin might be different, the, you know, the language we speak. But running unites us. So, I am pushing as hard as I can. That's one of the reasons it's taking so long to organize this I really want to go through Iraq and Iran.
James Laughlin 51:03
I think that'll be incredible, just to follow that journey. And to go from the lowest point to the highest point through all those ups and downs of what you're going to have to achieve to get there. It'll be phenomenal. And on your screenplay. After we've finished our conversation, I want to introduce you to an incredible guy, a fellow American called Patrick Mosher, he runs an amazing program called The Wisdom Council. And he just got back with his wisdom council members from the Oracle, the Delphi. And I think you and him would have an incredible conversation around Socrates. And yeah, he's right into it.
Dean Karnazes 51:38
I'd love to get connected with him. I am, you know, I've been to Delphi a number of times, I actually carry the Olympic torch, definitely, in Greece across Delphi.
James Laughlin 51:50
Wow, that's amazing. I'll definitely introduce you guys. I'll do that right after. Now, before we wrap up, I've got one question. I always save this to the end. And if we were to fast forward to the very end of your life, the last day, you know what your last day and someone very young, maybe a grandchild, as a young person with your family network comes up and asks you this question, then how can I lead my life on purpose? What would your advice or feedback be to them?
Dean Karnazes 52:31
It's going to be again, a very Greek answer, but be who you are.
James Laughlin
I love it. I love it.
Dean Karnazes
There’s silence, I don’t know if that was a good thing or a bad thing.
James Laughlin 52:47
Yeah, I'm, I'm letting that land with me, and just take that in and be who you are. And it's interesting. You say that because brawny where wrote an incredible book, she was a palliative care nurse. And she wrote a book called The Five Regrets of the Dying. And you spend a lot of time with people on their last days. And the number one regret was that we spend a large part of our lives worried about what other people think of us, and we then act and behave accordingly to impress others. And what you've just said, is just so striking, and so powerful, be who you are. That’s amazing!
Dean Karnazes 53:26
Well, and you know, there's another quote I have that I just love, I don't know how it sits with others. But you know, I always say that nobody wants their last thought to be I wish I would have laughed more. So, I mean, have some fun with life. I mean, there I'll leave you with a movie called Zorba the Greek. And it's an old movie. It's an old book by a Greek author that I love, and it's so irreverent and it just, it's so speaking to life being fun. I mean, life is something to celebrate. And, you know, essentially, his business just goes to hell in a handbasket. You know, in the last scene is him with his buddy drinking some ouzo on a beach, you know, Greek dancing, so celebrate life as well.
James Laughlin 54:14
I love it. Oh, yeah, I've got great memories of ouzo from the days in Faliraki in Greece that’s for sure.
Dean Karnazes 54:24
That's for another episode of the podcast.
James Laughlin 54:27
100%. Hey, Dean, I just want to say a massive thank you. I have a feeling this is not the last time we will speak or connect. And I'll be following your journey. And I want everyone that's listening right now. If they're on their phones, they can either go to audiobooks, or they can go to Amazon or their local bookseller and order a copy of A Runner's High. It was truly an incredible book. I learned a lot about myself. There are a few challenges that were set out in there, particularly around self-discovery that have really excited me so it's a great book, if you're a runner, you're going to love it. If you're not a runner, you're going to love it. So, I'll put the link in the show notes for people to grab a copy. And yeah, I'm excited to see what the next year or two brings for you, Dean.
Dean Karnazes 55:13
I appreciate you being such a gracious host. I hope I didn't bore you senselessly. And I hope the audience learned something from our conversation, but I very much enjoyed our time together.
James Laughlin 55:24
Well, thank you so much, Dean. We'll talk soon
James Laughlin 55:42
Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button. And I'd love it if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks. And leaders. It's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.