James Laughlin 00:00
Welcome to lead on purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven-time world champion, musician, and night executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today on investing yourself. Enjoy the show
James Laughlin 00:39
How much time do you invest in your brain? Well, look, our brain dictates so many things. It's our largest asset. We've got to look after it, right? But often we're putting things on our skin and we're doing all these other things that care for our bodies, but our brain dictates so much. I came across a product a week ago called Flow State and it's made such a difference. And look, they offer functional mushrooms that sharpen cognition, they really boost energy and definitely strengthen immunity. And they actually use one of the key ingredients, it's lion's mane. Right? So, the lion's mane is popular among really peak-performing athletes and those wanting an edge. It's known as the brain mushroom. And it's currently being studied extensively for its nerve growth factor potential as a means to ease the symptoms of Alzheimer's and for treating inflammation in the body. Look, the thing I love about these products, they don't taste like mushrooms, you can mix them in with your tea. They're a great replacement for coffee, but I actually love the P.M. Mushroom Blend, the evening one. It helps me sleep. And to know that my brain is getting extra nutrients is just the next level. The one thing that's really important for me is what's in there. So, they've tested heavily at Hill laboratories for heavy metals, pesticide residue, and microbial, and also at Massey University for active compounds. So, I urge you, if you love your brain, and want to go the extra mile to nurture it, head on over to flowstate.nz and you can use the coupon code lead on purpose to get 15% off.
James Laughlin
I don't know about you, but sometimes I get home. And I think what I am eating tonight is the last thing I want to do. I don't know what to cook, I don't know what's in the cupboard or in the fridge. And it often leads to poor choices like ordering some takeaway. So recently, Carolyn and I started eating green dinner table, and it's absolutely amazing. After a long day, when I'm knackered, I know that when I get home, there's going to be a great recipe and all the ingredients I need right there in the fridge. And look, I absolutely love it. I've been doing it for several months. And it means I don't have to think at the end of the day. And I just know that I'm going to get good, nutritious, wholesome food. And look, it's plant-based, which has so many benefits. So, if you're a meat eater, perhaps you might want to start on maybe just three, a three-day plan. So, you've got three evening meals for you and your partner or you and your family depending on what option you want to go for. But the food is delicious. It's so nutritious, and it means we don't need to think. And as leaders of families, teams, and organizations, what we put in our bodies is just so crucially important, so I urge you to go and check it out and I want to give you 20% off your first order. So, you can go to greendinnertable.co.nz and use the coupon code purpose.
James Laughlin 03:51
Today's episode is slightly different. That's because it was recorded in front of a live audience. It's from one of the days of my high-performance leadership program back in October 2022. Today's special guest is Ali Adams and you're going to gain so many great insights from her. I want to take a moment just to say a massive thank you to our two platinum partners for the high-performance Leadership Program. And that is VVV Real Estate and Brannigans, we sincerely appreciate your support. And just to let you know if you're keen to come to our HPL live event in 2023. You can go and add yourself to the waiting list. You're the first to hear about it, we will likely sell out again very quickly. So, if you'd like to be there, you will hear about it first we will email everyone on that waiting list first then any of our existing clients. So, head over to jjlaughlin.com and you'll see that there's a leadership training tab please go there, and you can add yourself to the list. Now, Ali Adams is the chief executive of Christchurch NZ. She leads the city's economic development agency with the support of six general managers who lead teams in pillars that each support a vital part of the agency's work. Allie has a background in economic development, having led New Zealand trading enterprises to work in Europe. And before that in the South Island, she also worked in marketing, tourism, and Sports Leadership, spending four years as the domestic manager for New Zealand cricket. Ali is a powerhouse and I'm so excited to see what she brings to the beautiful city of Christchurch over the coming years. So please enjoy today's show. And as I say it was recorded life, so sit back and enjoy.
Ali Adams 05:52
So now, I'm very humbled to be here and looking forward, to having a chat and hopefully sharing a few insights. And if look, if one thing I say resonates, then that's a success for me. Hopefully, there'll be a few things in there that make sense and feel like the right bit of insight at the right time for you on your journeys.
James Laughlin 06:11
Fantastic. Well, it's a bit of fun. So, I guess it is a great place to start with us. So, when you think of leadership, what comes to mind for you when you think of that term leadership?
Ali Adams 06:23
So, I think it's a huge word. And it's a huge responsibility, being a leader. And it's something that doesn't sit comfortably when you first start out for many of us on our leadership journey, it's something you have to learn to live with. It's like a coat you try on any kind of spend a bit of time with and for me, the biggest shift in leadership was when I moved from, you don't like if you think on the on your leadership journey, very often, you're a doer when you first start work. And then your first leadership role, you might lead one or two people that do the same job as you. And it's pretty comfortable because you know what they do. And then maybe you lead a bigger team of people that do the stuff that you used to do, and you're still reasonably comfortable because they're still doing the stuff that you do. The big shift, as a leader for me, is when you lead leaders, and all of a sudden, you're leading people who do things that you don't know what they do. So, for me, that's where you really start to define what leadership is. And I would define it in its rawest sense, as really clear context, really clear light on the hill, giving that vision and that goal so that everybody can see the direction that you're pulling in some really clear guardrails, and then letting people go, it's all about empowering people to be the best that they can be. And actually, if I think of probably the biggest superpower, I think I have, I don't know if people here may have done Strength Finders, many of you will have done the Clifton Strength Finders, if you haven't, it's a great tool, but have found my number one strength finder is individualization. And another way that I would explain that is, it's very much about believing the highest thoughts of people and enabling them to achieve their way, getting people to be able to deliver the best that they can be, is what I think a truly great leader does. And it's not easy, you have to actually really invest a lot of time and effort in order to make that happen. Quite draining. Being a leader is a lot of energy.
James Laughlin 08:17
Fascinating. And I want to look at your leadership journey. Because someone once said to me, hey, James, do you believe that leaders are born? I'm like, well, I'm yet to meet an unborn leader. Everyone has to be born. So, I believe it's a skill that we can develop, some people have a bent and an inclination toward leadership and influence with others. What about your leadership? Where did you start developing those leadership traits?
Ali Adams 08:44
It’s a great question. I look at my leadership style now versus my leadership style in my 20s. And it is just chalk and cheese, I am a very different leader. And you have to kind of grow into the different leadership roles that you have. I tried very hard on my leadership journey, you know, like in a career. There's, it's everything has a bell curve, doesn't it? Sorry, the scientists and we can't resist it. But everything has a bell curve. When you first start a job, you're in that kind of drinking-from-the-fire hose bit. And then you get to that bit where it starts to flatten off. And you can do it before you start to slip into apathy. And then ultimately, cynicism, which is when you should be absolutely leaving that role. I try and stay on that upward bit. And then you're constantly growing so that growth is such an important thing for me when I'm looking for a role. And I look at the way that my leadership has developed. I think several things happened during that time. Me, I think the first is it didn’t happen by accident. So, what you're all doing here today is so important, and it's so easy not to invest in yourself as a leader. But actually, the time that I have spent on courses like this, and I've been very fortunate I've had a lot of fantastic personal development investment through my career has been the best time I've ever spent, because you cannot be a good leader if you don't know yourself. Your starting point has been, you've got to know what your strengths and your weaknesses are. And every strength has a shadow side. And you've got to understand how to dial those up and down in different situations. And that starts with self-awareness, and it starts with investing in yourself. So, it's not happened by accident. I think the other thing that I think is really interesting is the growth in confidence. It's taken off center, James before, I'm 51. Depressing, but true. And only I would say, in the last three or four years have I been comfortable issuing the phrase, I am a leader, I am a good leader. I can even say that now. And it's taken me a very long time to get that classic impostor syndrome that many of us have. But actually, you know what, I'm quite good at this. And it's really good to have that confidence. It's not complacency, but the confidence that you can do this is a really good place to start as a leader. So that's probably been the two big insights from my journey so far.
James Laughlin 10:57
Thank you for sharing that. Not everyone can admit that imposter syndrome is something that I've experienced. But I would say the greatest leaders when you get talking to them intimately, they yeah, I didn't think I could do that job. And I struggled to think I could be the person that could step into it. What was the transition for you to go on? I'm not sure I can lead. I'm not sure I'm a great leader to know No, I know who I am. I know what I stand for. And I'm a good leader, what happened there?
Ali Adams 11:21
So, it probably happened, I had a bit of a kind of a leadership crisis, which I think many of us have, I used to work for the New Zealand Trade and Enterprise central government, a fantastic organization and wonderful leaders, and invested very heavily me as a leader. And I made the mistake of setting my heart on a job a long way out. So New Zealand Trade and Enterprise has these cycles of jobs. And I wanted to be the head of the European region, I'd set my goal on this, and I kind of got over-invested and it's a really dangerous thing to do. And it was a very traumatic interview process that I went through. And I started to really doubt myself, I started to doubt that I was the right person for it, I started to doubt that I was going to get it and I stopped being my authentic self. And that process was quite transformative for me, I happened to finish that process, knowing I'd got the job after a very painful, long interview process. It's kind of quite broken. And then I went on a course similar to this. So NZTE ran a course called leaders for impact, where we went and spent four days in the wilderness really just investing in ourselves. And that to me, all of a sudden, I was like, actually, you know what they've, they've picked me for this job. And I have got this job. And now I'm going to prove that I can do it. And it was a bit like a switch went on. There was confidence in me, I realized that a lot of the trauma that I've gone through during this horrendous interview process, while nearly of it was of my own making. And that's quite liberating. Because when it's your own making, you can change it. You know, one of my favorite leadership Insights is that you are your habits. So, anyone that likes sports here, I'm a big NBA fan. And there's a guy called Jeff Van Gundy. He used to coach the US basketball team and I was watching a game one day, and he talked about how you are your habits. I used to bite my nails. And I'm so proud. I just have to do this. And I'm still kind of ridiculously proud of my nails because that’s how I've controlled them. I remember one day being in I was in Hamburg having got this job in Europe and I got in the shower one morning and classic old impostor syndromes hadn't quite gone away at this point. Still hasn't gone away and will never go away. But I was in the shower listing the top 10 Things I hated about myself classic way to start the day. Always good like yeah, what I hate about my God, I wish it wasn't so fat. And I wish I got up earlier. And I wish I was a bit fitter. I wish it didn't bite my nails. And honestly, I got about number six and then realized that this was not a great habit. So just go to that I noticed it. But B that actually, they were pretty much all in my control. And that's quite a liberating thing as a leader. And all of a sudden when I realized that was like, actually, I think I probably can do this. So yeah, that was probably a long answer to your question. No, it's incredible, but I managed to get my nails done.
James Laughlin
They look beautiful.
Ali Adams
Thank you.
James Laughlin 14:08
I love it. And now that you're leading leaders, so you've overcome this imposter syndrome, which, arguably is, I think everyone will always have a level of that, you know, you look at the Top Five Regrets of the Dying. So, it was Bronnie Ware who wrote this book. She is a palliative care nurse. And the number one regret of people on their deathbed is regret living their life based upon what other people think about how they're living life. And impostor syndrome really ties into that. So now that you're leading leaders, you've overcome that you've learned how to compartmentalize that and manage it. How do you empower others who are in the earlier stages of their leadership careers, and who are almost crippled by the imposter syndrome? How do you lead them and empower them to think the way you think?
Ali Adams 14:51
Well, I don't necessarily want them to think the way I think I want them to think the way that they think but I do want them to do it with confidence and I think I have it's, I'm an extrovert, I like to talk, I have an answer to everything according to my husband, so he told me, so. But I've really learned to coach. And coaching is if you can get one skill as a leader, learn to coach learn to ask fabulous, open-ended questions, and link it with the second skill, which to me, trust your instincts. Now, if you can encourage people to trust their instincts, and you can coach them, then that is a very powerful combination. So, I would say that good leaders have good instincts, nearly always, you know, we all have our spidey senses when you're recruiting someone. And yeah, they've ticked every box on paper, and you know, they could do the job. But actually, it's just something to try. Don't ignore that, ever. So, you'll be right. And you know, what, if you're thinking it's someone else's thinking, so what I always say to my team is what? What's your gut telling you? What, what did you get to? And I will always say, what could you do about that? How have you not told me how that went? Tell me a little bit about that meeting. So, what are your thoughts? You know, it's and by doing people have all got the answers within, so and the more that they come up with their own solutions, the more their confidence grows, and then you start to see that impostor syndrome start to drift away a little bit in parallel as a leader don't ignore the power of positive feedback. When someone does something great, let them know they've done something great because you know, just like parenting, there are so many factors. Actually, I would say 90% of my leadership kind of insights come either from Ted Lasso, which if you haven't watched, watch, it's great. So, all from being a parent, because there are a lot of parallels. So, if you say something positive to one of your children, they're going to do that again. And you know, what’s true as people we’re really simple. You know, we want to do a good job. And if someone says you’ve done a great job, you don't do it again. And then you start to trust yourself and that confidence will grow.
James Laughlin 17:02
And what's the opposite of that? So, as a leader, if you're not taking a coaching approach, where you're really eliciting information and being curious, you're what does that look like and what your experience has been of not being coached but the opposite of that.
Ali Adams 17:15
So, one of the most difficult periods in my career was towards the end of my time, I'm going to be really honest here. By the way, please don't forget I'm not I'm not I will never be described as enigmatic Much to my disappointment. So, what you see is what you get. So, I'm going to tell you all my kind of dirty secrets here. I just remembered we’re on a podcast, maybe I should be a bit careful.
James Laughlin 17:34
We can take that bit off.
Ali Adams 17:36
One of my most difficult times was towards the end of my time at NZTA. I had my boss leave and was replaced by someone who was a micromanager. Now, that's to me, that's really hard because the most important thing for me is to feel trusted. I need to feel that people trust me, I need to feel that they think I've got it. And I find it very difficult when I'm micromanaged or questioned and so to me, that's what it looks like. And that's what you know that that really telling someone what they should do that double checking. Asking mom, all of that stuff is the total opposite. And that's just going to lead to imposter syndrome because people lose their confidence. When I started in Christchurch NZ. There were a lot of people who had become quite unconfident in their decision making and I describe a couple of them a bit like hermit crabs, it's a bit like you can actually see that kind of like they put a claw out and kind of go, they won't chop that off. Maybe I'll put another one out. It's kind of actually quite exciting to watch that unfurling and often, you know, in your career, you'll come into a role where you're taking over from a leader that's had a really different style to you and it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just a different style to you and you know, your team needs to come with you on that journey.
James Laughlin 18:53
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James Laughlin 20:05
Oscar de la Renta put it perfectly. Fashion is about dressing according to what's fashionable. Style is more about being yourself. And that's one thing I always try to do is try to be myself whether I'm interviewing a former head of state, hanging with my family on the weekend, or working with some of my incredible clients. I try to always just be myself as much as possible. And part of that is dressing accordingly. But every now and then, a special occasion will call for some special fashion and I am by no means an expert on fashion. And that's why I'm delighted to partner with Munss. Munss is back and it's better than ever. Located in the beautiful tannery Emporium on Garland's Road in Christchurch. It offers a huge range for men with suits for hire and sale, ties, jeans, waistcoats, hats, sunglasses and more. So, for all of your mandatory needs, head along and check out at munss.co.nz
James Laughlin 21:11
And in terms of leadership style, so we've got all these terms, affiliative, democratic, autocratic when you think of a style, do you have a style that you lean to? Or do you feel it's more situational leadership?
Ali Adams 21:23
It’s a bit of both. I love situational leadership. I try to think of things that I can say that is okay, on a podcast. I do, do quite a lot of situational leadership. And I've learned this the hard way. So, I'm going to I worked with someone who was quite an, I don't know if I can use the word alpha male, the phrase, quite an alpha male. And my leadership style tends to be quite vulnerable, open, really happy to say when I've made a mistake, really comfortable kind of owning it, you know, not kind of trying to prove anything. I found that with this particular person. And actually, often with alpha males, that doesn't work. It's seen as a bit of a weakness. And so, I have adapted my style. And it was funny the other day, a guy came into our office for a meeting, and he's classic alpha male, and one of my team sat with me, and she came out of the meeting afterward and said, Who the hell was you? And I was kind of like, yet it was very, very deliberate, that I dialed up certain aspects of my leadership style with that person because actually, that's how you need to get credibility and respect there, or that's how I judged it. That comes back to trusting your instincts. Actually, you know, let your instincts tell you what the right thing to do is. So just don't ignore them. Often think of it like a quiver of arrows. I don't know if I often have this kind of visual in my quiver of arrows. And I think about which one I'm going to pull out. Actually, I know, I'm going to pull out that one. And it's kind of great. You know, actually, it's really helpful with the imposter syndrome thing.
James Laughlin 22:55
I love that. And often we can be boxed in in terms of, oh, you're a Democratic leader, you're affiliative. Yeah, it's nice to know that actually successful leadership can be situational. And we can move as required. Yeah, I think COVID of anything has taught us that we need to be flexible. Yeah. Now Christchurch NZ, let's chat a little bit about that. So, I guess first, you know, what is Christchurch NZ? And then we'll unpack when you walked in as a new leader at an existing company, and what were your greatest challenges. So, what is Christchurch NZ?
Ali Adams 23:24
So, Christchurch NZ is fully canceled loved and so we’re a canceled, controlled entity, and we are the economic development agency for Christchurch. So, in short, we attract people to Christchurch to make it a more prosperous place for people that live here. We bring wealth into the city. And that might be by attracting visitors. It might be by attracting businesses, investors, immigrants, and workers, Major Events, business events, we do a whole heap of stuff. But essentially, we're attracting wealth to the city for the benefit of all. What were my biggest challenges? Quite a few ones were, so cross your chins. That is one of those organizations a bit like NZTE, where it's very purpose-driven, it's cause-driven, so our salaries are disappointingly not enormous. So, because we're a ratepayer-funded organization, and so most people that come there come there for other reasons. They come here because they care about giving back, they care about the cause. And now that's a fantastic thing as a leader because you've got the opposite of apathy. There's nothing worse as a leader than coming into an organization where people really don't care. What's that horrible word that I heard the work where people turn off at work, I can't remember. It's the new buzzword anyway, where people literally, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, I had this amazing group of people who really cared. The downside of that is they say yes to everything. And so, we were an inch thick and a mile wide and we still do say yes to too many things. And we'd become that agency at Council where all they'll do that but do ya. So, we would really not be delivering as well as I would like. So, I was very keen to, I called it tidying up all blurry edges. So, I've been really clear about what we do and what we don't do about empowering the people in my team to say no, and making it safe for them to say no. So, because we have some really strong stakeholders, and one of the things I've learned in my transition from central government to local government is central governments actually quite unified. So that you get really one voice in local government, that kind of parochialism and you go to present to the councils and people vary. Each Councilor is very passionate about what's going on in their ward. And so, you know, for example, if we're talking about doing some urban development, you know, why aren't you doing something in Philips town? Why aren't you doing something in recognition? Why aren't you doing it? It’s not actually we've got $18 million, not for urban development. So, you've actually got to manage those, those notes. And you've got to enable your team to say no in a way that is acceptable to your stakeholders without losing them along the way. So that was probably the biggest challenge. I think the second challenge I had was my leadership team needed to focus on the right things, my leadership team was very much in the weeds, and very focused on dealing with operational things. And it was, it's quite important that we stepped up a level to create that space for the people below, to be able to feel like they're experts. And also, for us to think about the direction of travel of the organization, it very much felt like a leadership team where people came in with their functional hat on, and so very much getting people to take that hat off and think about actually what's the best they will probably the two biggest challenges we face.
James Laughlin 26:44
is huge. There are no boundaries, like enforcing boundaries, but also being able to sit and detach from everything in the weeds, as you said. So, I know there are so many other leaders in the room right now that are busy being busy and keeping things moving. There's been so much challenge during COVID, and I post COVID. Economy doing what it's doing. So how does one when there's busyness happening, actually take a team and go, Hey, that's brave. Let's set it up here. And let's look at it whilst things are still being maintained here. How did you manage to achieve that?
Ali Adams 27:16
So, I think the first thing was leading by example, I say, I don't need to see that. Why are you showing me that? Stop. I don't I don't need to see every media release that goes out. I don't need to see every board paper why? Why is that wallpaper, you know, from you, rather than the subject matter expert? So actually, just leading by example, was a very big part of it. And then leaning into a couple of quick wins. So, we had an event that we had, for a long time, it was a major event that someone had said they wanted to host here in Christchurch. And because we're cost driven, and we're nice, we'd said hold, we'll try. We'll try. We'll try. And we've done a bit of a feasibility study that has shown that this thing's going to cost us a fortune, it was going to be really an enormous amount of money and was clearly never going to happen. But we hadn't really said no. And so, we managed all our stakeholders. We told everyone we were going to say no and why before we did it. And we checked everyone that had kind of embarked on this journey with us. And then we wrote a letter saying no. And it went down fine. And all of a sudden, everyone kind of went, Oh, well, that's okay. We said no. And that worked. And that started to lift it. I think the other thing that we did was invite, you know, I think leadership teams are often seen as a bit of an ivory tower, and people don't know what you're discussing and doing in there. And that can kind of cause some sort of cultural challenges. So, we were very transparent. So, we invite it every quarter, I invite someone from the team to come and sit on our leadership team, and they just become a full member of our leadership team every quarter, and it rotates. And we choose people that we have, I've introduced a talent matrix so that we can start to look at our talent from within, and we can start to make sure that our performance development is really tailored to where individual people are. And that kind of started to remove some of the gossips about what we were and weren't discussing some of that frustration. And when the culture starts to, I mean, it's such a cliche, that culture eats strategy for breakfast, but it really, really is true. You've got to get that culture shifting, you've got to get people to really believe that they are valued and that the work they do is heading in the right direction. And then you can start to really shift it but leading by example probably is the biggest thing that
James Laughlin 29:37
It’s amazing. And I hear it's a shift from me to we, that's us versus them. It's us. We're in this together. So, in terms of a sense of belonging. So, I really think that any team whether it's a sports team or a company organization, their success or their winning, are you achieving results is that Rackley in correlation to everyone's personal meanings. touch to being a part of that team a sense of belonging. Yeah, at Christchurch NZ, or even in another area that you've worked in LED, how do you create that sense of belonging for your people,
Ali Adams 30:09
We spend a lot of time at work right at this guy called Way Nori good guy who drew a really terrifying graph a few years ago. And as I said, I'm 51. So, I'm at the wrong end of this, right, he drew a graph where it was like 24 hours and 90 years, and they drew a line as well, and that's all gone. And then he drew the amount of your sleep. And then the bits that you're retired and potentially not able to move much, and there's this tiny little box in the middle that's left of your life. And most of it, you're at work. And it was quite a moment. For me, I was like, actually, you've got to love what you do, you have got to enjoy work, nobody, you know it, you've got to enjoy it. And so, you can have a bit of fun. I think that's really important. So, people are human people who do business with people. So, when I first joined Christchurch NZ, I wanted to know who I worked with. And we have about 95 employees, I've had a one-on-one with every single person. And it's really funny, they will turn up with a book to make notes. So, and I'm just like, I'm just going to ask you whether you've got any chicken and what you like to do on a Saturday. And so, it's like, it's great, you know because I actually care, I want to know who they are. And I've finished that one-on-one now. And I'm just starting again because they're so energizing for me as an extrovert, they're gold. So, I'm just going to, we're just going to go round and round around, and people really feel heard. And the moment you've got that people actually they're like, she, she cares about me, you know, it takes me 25 minutes to get coffee. Because I stop at every desk on the way to the office, and Hannah was in our office, she'll probably, I'm very loud, you know when I'm in the office. Now, I'm not saying that's the only type of leadership style but actually, being a visible leader and being human is so important in getting people to love what they do and enjoy coming to work. You know, I know that my team is proud of me. And I know that they're proud to work for Christchurch NZ and part of that is because I'm one of them, you know, I represent them. And that's really important. I think you can't underestimate the power of being a Visible Human leader.
James Laughlin 32:07
I think when you talk to leaders, and they talk about this lonely at the top thing, a lot of leaders will come to the team is actually quite lonely at the top. Well, the more I've thought about that if you're feeling lonely, then jump off that big highchair you're sitting on, get out of your corner office and get amongst your people rub shoulders, and get to know them. And so, it sounds like that's exactly really what you're doing is you're getting amongst your people.
Ali Adams 32:29
And it's energizing for you as a leader. Honestly, I get such a kick a worker. Quite even though we're doing that, you know, a lot. We have a staff meeting every couple of weeks and it runs itself the staff, you know, I don't drive that agenda. Things come up at that meeting, and I just sit there and go, Oh, that's so cool. We've got such cool people and that's them. You know you don't need to know what's going on. You just need to enable it to happen. And that to me is it's a win/win.
James Laughlin 32:54
Yeah, absolutely. And I would say one of the biggest topics that come up at the minute is this whole great resignation. Why are people leaving? Why can we not keep talent, there's such churn, and people are leaving for money. What do you believe about culture? And retaining good staff? Like, how do we keep great staff?
Ali Adams 33:13
Well, I think the first answer is you can't always and that's okay. I have come to terms with the fact that the hard way, you know, is hard. You can't always keep everyone you want to. And you can't always get everyone that you want to when you're recruiting, and that's okay. How can you keep them I think you can make people feel really valued and really heard and really invested in, so at NZTE, Chris was my NZTE, is a great guy, a fantastic leader. And he always used to say, look, we can't, we can't pay the big bucks, but we can guarantee that you'll leave this organization with a better CV than you came into it with. And I have that in my mind. That's a gift that I can give to everyone that works for me or for us in Christchurch NZ. And it's a question of trying to make sure that you really tailor that personal development to what they need. So, if I come back to talent management, if you haven't got one of these, to me, it's the best tool I have a little nine-box matrix, the old nine-box matrix, which basically has potential on one side and performance along the other. So, you can Google them, there's plenty of them and you'd like your star and you're ready for promotion in here and you've got your underperformers, you don't want anyone in there. But if you do, you need to move them up or out. But then you've got people elsewhere. Now if you're down on the bottom right where you are a very high performer but you're not ready you don't want to move. We've all got these in our organization. They're really important. There are people that have been there 25 years doing the same job and they love it, and they do a really great job. It doesn't mean they don't want to grow. It doesn't mean they don't deserve to be invested in it's just different. So, what can you do to invest in people like that to make sure that you retain them and that they feel valued, and that they feel like you care? And so these models are really for me really useful because they, they give you really practical ways of being able to think about, you know, maybe it's a comment, maybe it's actually, you know, what are the things that that person might be looking for, they're going to mentor someone within the organization or learn a language or whatever it might be that floats their boat, because that's actually what really that we all just want to feel like we're contributing and that we've unmuted.
James Laughlin 35:24
Again, when you look at the human needs psychology, you want to feel valued, feel connected, yeah, and have some degree of certainty around your place whether it’s an organization or in your family. Yeah. And I guess, because you spend so much time with your staff, one-to-one, you actually do know their needs more so than yeah, imagining what they want. You’re amongst the asking those questions about their aspirations professionally, and personally.
Ali Adams 35:45
Yeah. And I think as that here's another, for me, I think something that I've learned about myself something I did quite naturally, but I had a wonderful coach when I was in the UK and she unlocked this insight for me, which is about the power of alchemy as a leader. So, I'm a chemist by background, and it's very typical in England that you do a degree in something that's got nothing to do with business and then end up in business. So, I did a great degree in inorganic chemistry. And there's a little bit of me that is still a bit of a tragic scientist. And I honestly think very deliberately as a leader about the alchemy of putting people together. So, when I was in Europe, I had a particular leader in southern Europe, who was not particularly getting on with one of my leaders in Northern Europe, it was just that they were always clashing at leadership meetings was a bit of tension, but a conflict there. Now, conflict excites me, because conflict is innovation, right? We all agree with each other. Nothing's changed. Well, that's interesting. There's something interesting there. What would happen if I put them on a project together? So, I very deliberately gave them a project together, knowing that it would probably blow up, which, obviously, then you pick the pieces up and help them manage through that conflict. And honestly, the magic that happens when you do that is incredible. So that kind of very deliberate alchemy as a leader, I think is quite a powerful tool. So, if you've always been looking and watching and noticing, and think watch he that, a little bit of them with a little bit of them on a little bit of that project. And it won't always work. But it's, it's quite fun to be experimental, I think, yeah. Machiavellian and Dylan's like, yeah.
James Laughlin 37:28
I think there are a lot of people that could relate to that. And you talked a little bit about micromanaging. None of us like to be micromanaged. Let's face it. So, if you're new, and you're walking into an organization, and you're not the leader, and you don't want to be a micromanager, what has to happen for you to have that level of trust from your leader? So, you're not a micromanager? What are the ingredients? I've got to be put together before you can work independently and autonomously.
Ali Adams 37:56
So, I will have a crack at answering them. My instinct is to say, what do you all think? So, because actually, that is exactly the kind of question I would say to my team what do you know, if you want that trust, how are you going to get there? What have you tried? What's worked? What hasn't? So actually, you will all have the answer to that question what I would do absolutely is I would prove by being able to deliver, and then if I felt that the boundaries were being crossed, I would very openly and honestly share how I was feeling. There's a man called Edgar Papke, I don't read business books ever. But I have kind of skimmed this one. It's called the elephant in the boardroom. And Edgar Papke is a wonderful man. And he talks about conflict quite a lot. And he talks about conflict being basically just where there's a difference of opinion or a miscommunication. And it's, this is a really great tool, particularly when you're talking up. So, if you're going to your boss to raise something that's not quite working for you. And what he talks about is the power of actually just saying what your intention is. So, you start by saying, hey, look, my intention is for us to work really well together. And for me to be able to deliver so well that you don't feel that you know, you need to get involved, whatever it might be, you make it very safe for that person to have the conversation and then you share your truth. And this is the key you using language. So, I'm probably teaching you all to suck it, but you use language like, I feel when you do this, I feel when you do that, it makes me think or you know, you don't pass it, you don't say you're really a micromanager or, you know, you’re attacked me when you do that. She says she just makes me feel a bit like you don't trust me or a bit, you know, use that your truth because it's actually something they can't argue with. If you're feeling that, then it's true. And then this is the heartbeat, you know, so what's the truth for you? And that's where you actually here are some things you might not like, your manager might say to you actually, it's because you had 25 spelling mistakes, or you always do this or you always do that and you might hear some things that actually start to help you understand why they're not trusting you to do this, but that's when the magic happens. Because then you know, then you can start to move forward. So that's what I would do. But everyone will have their own answer to that.
James Laughlin 40:03
No, thank you for sharing it. And I absolutely agree with that. When someone says, I feel that we have no right to challenge how someone feels. But what we can do is be behind the feeling as a thought, and we can challenge people's thoughts, and we can engage and converse around. What thinking is driving that feeling?
Ali Adams 40:21
That's right. Yeah. And be curious to do that. I think, to me, it's a very liberating tool, the Edgar Papke model, and it's really simple, but it just diffuses tension into a conversation because 99.9% of the time is just a miscommunication.
James Laughlin 40:37
100%. And for you personally, what has been your greatest leadership challenge over the last few years?
Ali Adams 40:48
Oh, let there be lots of them. And I love that there are lots I'm not going to say COVID Actually, I think probably my, my most difficult challenge was I closed an office. And I closed so when I went to Europe, I was based in Hamburg, in the consulate there and we had a team of 12. And it was an underperforming team. And I knew it was an underperforming team. And I knew that people had avoided looking at the fact that this team wasn't delivering. And it wasn't that the people hadn't been great, because they probably had been, they just kind of perhaps the organization had moved forward at a pace that this team hadn't. And so, I decided the best thing was to close that office and move a smaller team up to Berlin. And it had a big impact on a lot of people's lives. It's very challenging if you're a people-driven, heart-driven kind of leader. And I remember very clearly a moment after we'd done it, so we sort of planned it very carefully. There was an awful lot of background going into it. And I'm very, very proud of it. It actually is something that went very well. But I do remember that moment when you talked about the loneliness of being a leader. It was the Wednesday the week after that we'd had the conversation the week before and it was the week after. And I was in the office, I was in the office a bit late, and people kept coming past my desk saying or you know, I'm going home now I'm off to have dinner with a friend that someone else had come up just off so I'm off to the supermarket and they must have all been going is she ever going to leave. And I didn't know that. So, they were all kind of fine. Mostly they've all gone I jump in the car. My husband picks me up, we drive around the corner, and there's my entire team at the pub. And, and it and it's a very confronting thing as a leader, my kids said, Oh, Mom, that's your team. And I was like, yep, yep. And you got to keep going, right? That's a big grown-up moment. That's your big girls’ pants are on that day, because you know, that they're all going. So, because you are to them. And that's okay, we've all had those people in our lives. But actually, that was probably Pivotal, but very important. And you know, you asked me what the toughest leadership challenges are. They're the best, no pressure, no diamonds. So, you think about job interviews that you go for, you don't talk about all the stuff that went easily, you talk about the great stuff that went wrong. And even if it's going wrong, you kind of go, this can make good dinner party story, you know, gobble them up, they're great, collect them, they're the things that are going to make you the leader that you are you know, if it all goes really well then, you're not growing.
James Laughlin 43:15
I love that. And let's just take a moment before we pass it over to Q&A. I'm going to pass it over for a little bit. If anybody wants to ask any questions, we'll bring a mic out. But to be such a high-performing leader and to have the ups and downs and a roller coaster that is working as a leader How have you managed to balance the family side of things?
Ali Adams 43:35
You should probably ask my husband that and he would probably say I haven’t, I know myself quite well. And I think that's quite important. I know my triggers, I know when I am burning out and I'm quite good at stopping and taking the time I need to recover, I don't manage my hours, I manage my energy and I'm very you know that for me that works. So, I do work long hours. And that's difficult, but I try and gobble little bits wherever I can have my nails done at three in the afternoon and not feel guilty about it you know, because I know that I'll work till 10 o'clock three days that week. What else do I do? I’m very fortunate I have an amazing husband who runs the family for us as a team and that's amazing. I'm very lucky to have that I don't think I could have done that without him to be able to do that. And I try and make the most of the downtime I've got I know what my good mindful downtime is. I have some terrible guilty pleasures. I love Love Island. Right. So, I love true crime podcasts. I like to walk a lot and garden and I kind of just try and you know to give my brain is either on or off. That's me. Everyone's different but for me, it's either fully on or lying on the couch like a cabbage.
James Laughlin 45:00
Love it. That's great. And before we do hand it over to Q&A, if we were too fast forward to the end of your life, many, many years into the future, we all hope and a loved one in your family or a close friend who's very young. It could be five or six years old, and they come up to you and they say Ali, how can I lead my life on purpose? What would your wisdom or insights be for them?
Ali Adams 45:29
It's a really good question. And when we did the NZTE, the four days away, we were asked to visualize our 80th birthday and do the same, it's a very, very, very powerful exercise. What would I say? I would say, be kind to yourself, and don't accept what you're great at. But know that it has a shadow side. And so, it's that scale think I'm explaining this very poorly. But there's something about learning to love yourself and the things that you're great at, don't try and change them, you know, I am a loud, noisy pain in the ass. That's, that's okay. That's, you know, it's like I'm okay with it. It's that lots of people, it works on lots of the time, it's fine. And other times it doesn't. And that's good for me to be aware of. And I want to be aware of it. And I want to be able to turn it down at times that I need to, but I don't want to change that. And there's an acceptance of who you are. And the fact that your style is your style, Don’t try and change it. Try and leverage your strengths and minimize those weaknesses. That would be probably my biggest piece of advice. Love yourself a bit.
James Laughlin 46:41
I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Let's put our hands together for Ali Adams.
James Laughlin 47:07
Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button. And I'd love it if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks. And leaders. It's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.