Tom Randall Opens Up: Mindset, Burnout & Real Life

Ollie Torr (00:15)
Welcome back to the podcast Tom. It's been a while since we've been talking together on here Might even been two years or something like that It's not been that long surely. I think we did one a while ago and it must have been a year before that. Yeah, I mean time flies quickly in this building especially in the black box of the podcast studio where there's not a single light and you're surrounded by squidgy

black pyramids of foam everywhere. Yeah, we'll do a little spin so everyone can see. It really does just go dark and foamy in here. How are you doing? You've just been away on a trip, come back from Austria, I believe. Yeah, I've just been out in Austria for 10 days trying to finish off a route that I tried two years ago called Prinziphofenung, which was around an eight.

B slash plus trad route that I was trying with on a hazelnut and it's like a a pumpy sporty 7c plus or so into a cruxie slab boulder and has a little bit of a scary run out on it and I've just been back to try and finish that off. How did you get on because pretty much last time you got to the top totally whipped off took a bigger fall than you were expecting thanks to a certain cam and then yeah how did you get on this time?

And I've heard rumors of some changing of holds. Yeah, returning to this route was really interesting in terms of a sort of psychological process of how I think about my projecting because I'd booked this trip in really early in the year and I knew that I was going to go back and finish the route. My climbing had been going really well and it felt like a just turn up and finish it off. Maybe two or three sessions to...

relearn the sequences, check what I'm doing and then two or three red points. There's always something that you fluff initially and then it'd be done. And then I heard from Jim Pope who is a really good competition climber from the Sheffield scene. Another really good track climber as well, very capable and he'd been told that Be'ak Kamelander, the first ascensionist, had put some seeker into the middle of the crux sequence and also a key hand and foothold of broken.

and now it was potentially quite a bit harder. And I was like, oh, okay, okay. Ooh, shall I swap the trip up? I messaged Pete and tried to find out whether maybe he could do a trip at last minute. And then I had this little thing and went, wait a minute, what's the whole point? Why am I going and doing these hard routes? It's because I'm trying to push myself and I'm trying to learn something about my climbing and I want to be...

on the edge. I don't want to be in the comfort zone and so there's this little tussle backwards and forwards of why am I actually into climbing right at the limit and so I continued to actually commit to the trip. Subsequently Jim went out there and then couldn't get up the route which ended up being like a massive warning sign to me because he is way way better at climbing than me. no right okay well that's gonna be interesting isn't it?

which again ended up in this really good mindset shift because I went out onto the route on that trip going, no, just put everything in that you can, just enjoy every single part of the process. And I'd say up until this day, it's probably the most rewarding walk away from a trip, not doing a project process that I've ever been into because my mindset was so much in the right place. And I'd say I'm already quite good at

dealing with failure and not succeeding on a route anyway. But this one was even more of a lesson in that. So I really enjoyed it for that point. Nice. So what kind of trip, what does it actually look like? like how long were you just tractioning? Cause it's a slab, which is pretty straight, isn't it, the line. So you're just tractioning. that's like really enjoyable in itself, isn't it? Cause you're just playing on your own or you top roping with someone else. Cause I imagine a lot of people are listening going...

That does sound really fun and in theory we should all have a better mindset like that. But you know what it's like when there's other people kind of on a schedule or you really want to send or you've only got a certain amount of time. You start feeling this pressure. Like what was the actual logistics of that kind of enjoyable trip? Yeah. So the trip was done with a combination of a good friend of mine from North Wales, Callum Musket, who is a

another really competent track climber. climbed one of the hardest slabs in the UK with me a couple of years ago. So I knew he had the desire and the credentials to go and do that kind of thing. And then a friend from Italy who flew over for a few days, sorry, drove over for a few days to join us just for a kind of a weekend of climbing together. So I had a couple of really good friends that I knew I would love spending time with, whether it was on the rock or off the rock and

this time rather than going for a mini tractioning approach which I would typically do with hard projects where I just need to spend loads of time refining the beta, working out the strategy, where to stop, where to climb fast, where to place the gear is I changed this one up to more of a just time on top rope and I suppose in a way utilizing the resource of having

someone else there who didn't want to spend loads of time on attraction doing the strategic thing, which Anna Hazelnut is very, very good at. So I kind of swapped up the strategy to suit my climbing partner. And I think this was one of the lessons that I learned was when you go on a trip, think about what you have available to you and make the trip work to what's available. Don't fight against the tide. If Callum was a massive mini tractioner,

and that's what he wanted to do. he would go in the morning and then I would go in the afternoon. We'd all just spend solo time and put headphones in. Then I would have gone for that. But that's not him. So that's how we did it. Is that why you think it was more enjoyable though? Because you only engaging with someone else the entire time. Was that part of that reason for the enjoyment or was it the whole process? I think it's making sure that my behaviors on a trip

are cohesive with the things available, like the resources available, you know, time, partners, psych, everything like that. And that's what I feel like I've learned more and more over the years is don't fight against the tide. That's cool. That's a nice way putting it as well, is that because I do think like we often go away, don't we? And we have an agenda in mind. then as soon as I think fear comes into a lot of it when one of the partners is more scared.

of a certain climbing objective and then it really becomes a disparity between the two people and a lot of times you won't even say it because you're nervous aren't you of like letting the other person down and you end up having this tug of war the whole time but you're better off just leaning into what both of you want to be able to do at the same time and it becomes far more enjoyable for that. One of the things I always find with projects as well you know when it's like so hard or like you just said with Jim Pope say if

If I was trying to boulder and I know Jim hadn't done it, I'd be like, this is all bonus material for me because if I'm not expecting to do it, so it all becomes about fun and every time you think you're close to doing it, you're like, well, I'm doing bloody well here. Did that help make it more enjoyable? Because you had this, like, it was such a high bar to actually do it because no one has, I don't think anyone's done it yet, have they, in the new format? Actually, funnily enough, a really good climber called Michi.

don't know what his surname is, Mishi-San-One. Looked like a total wad. Did it in the middle of our trip and he'd been projecting it for a while and had a successful lead whilst we were there at the crag on one of the evenings. So it was really cool to see someone going all in and managing to do it in its new format, which was, I suppose, quite reassuring because you're thinking for a bit of, how's this going to be? So that itself, I suppose, put a bit of reality on the situation that...

It's totally doable. It's just hard and harder than it was. Cool. And what were the learnings? You said one of the best learnings, Tripp. Apart from the tie, as well as the tied element. Yeah, I think it was the fact that I've always had this process in my head of when I go for any project or goal,

I need to be in it for the right reasons because I found that the outcome is so much more certain and then the process is way more enjoyable and fulfilling when you can really know what you want and what you need and not just get distracted by circumstance, people around you, peer pressure.

internal bias on things and this trip because it was one where I was essentially walking in with a I don't think this is going to happen it was almost like I was setting myself up for failure it was very interesting doing that and realizing that those methods that I've previously work exactly the same on a trip that's kind of in inverted commas doomed

Lots of people would go, why would you, especially professional climbers who really want their results at the end, why would you even go and do that trip? Why not just pause it till later in the year where you're fitter and stronger or you know more information about the route, but it just turns out that it still works, whatever the outcome from it. Just make sure the process is right.

Yeah, it's quite, there's quite a nice question, isn't it? Like, what would you do if you knew you'd fail anyway? I had this conversation with an athlete of mine, she's currently bouldering in Bishop and doing an amazing job of like long, long term project. And we had this conversation right at the start is, well, if you knew you're going to fail, would you try anyway?

And the answer was, well, yeah, all I would do is find another project that I may or may not do. I know I really like this one and it's like a real mental battle. So yeah, I do want to go on it. And it does make the hurt a little bit more if it's something which is really important to your long term. But if you knew you would try anyway, even though you're guaranteed to fail, then you'll only be enjoying, won't you? Yeah. And there's this rough rule of thumb that I think you can...

often live by when it comes to expectations and reality and the of the function outside of it of getting to feeling happy or fulfilled or psyched is that if you can keep the expectations at least equal to or less

than the reality, you nearly always end up at the end going, yeah, that was okay. But it's when you have this expectation, which is greater than the reality, even if the reality was pretty flipping good, you just end up really dissatisfied or unhappy. And that's a curious thing about us humans and especially in the performance zone is that...

I think the reality for people trying to do really well is that we need to really push that envelope and be very, very close to that line of it might not occur, because otherwise you're just not pushing the boundaries. So this is the juggling act of finding that sweet spot of just inside enough of reality and expectation and then.

you can be in it for the long run. Like I've been climbing close to my limit for 20 plus years and I still really love it. Yeah, there's that saying, I can't remember the actual saying, but it's something like happiness equals what you have minus expectation, which kind of matches Yeah, that's the one, yeah. I've seen it on Instagram a few times.

It's been

I just kept looking at it being like, one, we look a bit evil because of the lighting.

then it will like you pretty much want to be looking almost a bit more at each other.

Yeah, I think that'll work.

Mom, say 12 minutes to you.

So you mentioned there about some of one of the tactics in terms of things that you've picked up over the years and what works for you. The one that I always come back to, which you told me about, which links in with what you've just said is the letting it brew theory. I call it the letting it brew theory. Can you tell us about that? When did you start doing it? How do you do it now? What does it actually look like? that's a really good question.

So the letting it brew theory is, I won't try and claim credit for it because I probably heard it somewhere else and then somehow over the years made it my own. And so before someone says, no, that's an existing thing, loads of people do that, is how it works is I try and have in my mind at any one point a number of.

different goals and ideas that I have about my future and where I want to take things. And I have a theory that is either mine or I nicked that you need to let these ideas and goals essentially brew and kind of churn around in your own mind for lots of time because everything to do with the future has loads of different complexities and unknowns and parts that go into it.

And the greater the goal, the more hard it is to achieve, the more factors that will need to go into it to make it achievable and realistic. So what I try and do is the greater the goal or the thing that I'm trying to work towards, the more brewing time I like to let it have. So that essentially in a really, I suppose, intuitive...

soft approach, my brain can slowly process and understand all the moving parts that go into that goal so that somewhere down the line, whether it's six months or even five years, if it's a really big goal, I've thought about it so much and it feels like just part of me. It's almost like the goal has become part of my identity that then when I embark on that journey, it feels like

I just know this thing. I thought about loads of different angles. I thought about the failure of it. I thought about maybe it won't hit quite the expectations that I have. What are all the moving parts that I need to get into order? How do I sequence it? How do I strategize it? And then I found that you end up being a bit more successful in achieving that goal. And secondly, it's just way less stressful because you've front loaded a whole load of work into working

on that goal, but you've done it quietly in your own mind, so there's no pressure, no one knows about it, you haven't declared it anywhere, you've just mould it in your own mind. And that has worked really, really well for me over the years, for sure. Yeah, that's one thing that I think Dave McLeod's really good at saying, is really identifying with your goal where...

if you want to climb V14 boulders, what would a V14 boulder be doing? What does that look like? Who are they? And you kind of like become that person in behaviors and then it just comes down to actually executing physically. Can you tell me through, talk me through like you've said about over time and the bigger the goal, the longer you think about it. Say, stranger than fiction, something like that where...

You need to train as well. Like, does the training start matching the brewing process? Does it come in later? Like, do you start, did you think about it six months out and then you kind of thought about it once a week, then twice a week, and then it got to three months, you're like, cool, I'm gonna start training specifically for this. Then when do you start booking the trip? Like, give us a bit of a timeline, because I think that's interesting. okay. So...

I would say that there is never any specific timeline depending on the length of the project or the difficulty of it. It's always a of sliding scale. But in the case of Stranger, then in that particular circumstance, the first time that I'd gone and done the route, was very much, it kind of just popped up as being a goal with me and Pete. And it just came onto our radar at the same time. Oh yeah, I think we could go and we can try this together.

And maybe that one didn't have quite as much brewing as such because it was just an obvious target to go for. But then the second time round and thinking about, actually, I do want to return to this and it is important enough to me that I think I'll really enjoy going back and trying to finish that route off. That brewing process was a little bit longer.

And I think realistically when I do this is in the early stages of mulling this over my mind, thinking about what partner would I have? What's the right time of the year? What kind of shape would I need to get into? What are going to be the hurdles that I have to jump over to be in a better place than last year? Is I take all the...

I suppose generalized approaches to performance and what would help me in the goal. And I get some of those ticking over in the background as I'm doing the mulling over and the brewing process, because I know that even if they don't...

they don't end up needed for that project because three months later I go, you know what, nothing was quite feeling right and actually I'm not going to go for stranger. I know I've still done something good for my climbing overall. So that might be, for example, I really need to go into a phase of strength and conditioning and do a load of weights work in the gym. And if I think to myself, yeah, that could actually be used for a whole number of other projects and it feels right for this time of year, I'll totally do it.

But if it was paddle hands and ring lock technique, I'll leave that much later in the process because that's not really got that much of a chance of transferring over to other projects that I have that year. So it's like a specificity thing, almost like strategically not wasting my bullets on a thing which doesn't have a high chance of actually being useful. Yeah, I think that's the bit that I find really interesting is the...

is very one track minded in many ways but the kind of commitments that one track is kind of a bit later than maybe you'd expect. think because we like pro climbers like yourself where you'd be like you've got this project then this project but realistically you've got them all in subsequent all at the same time just season dependent but you only get specific quite late on like we do in all that training plans and stuff is and when people get ready for a boxing match

the fight camp or the specificity bit is actually pretty late in that process. But the difference I think from yourself is loads of us just get distracted really easily. Like I know, like I've got a trip coming up at the moment. have a, big walling. I have a boulder project to have all these other things and.

from what you've said, kind of, have that brewing process going in the background, but you don't often get distracted from that at the last minute, is that fair to say? Yeah, I'd say generally I'm fairly focused on what I want to do and achieve, and it probably comes from having a reasonably good handle on knowing myself and what...

what will end up being distracting factors and that I don't have very much discipline on or that ultimately I'm more motivated towards. So an example this would be is during the period of maybe, when will I say it? Probably 2020 onwards, I started to become way, way more focused on my kind of business career outside of climbing and...

At that point, I don't think I knew myself well enough to realise that my motivation for that was probably equal, if not higher than climbing itself. So I had this period for quite a long time where I would say to myself, I've got focus for this project. But if you look to my everyday activities, I was just lying to myself. And there I was with four hours spare in the day. We'd have the highest energy and I'd be really mentally on it and really alert.

Would I go and do my training session then? No, I wouldn't. I'd come into the office or I'd be doing some work on the work stuff or the business stuff. And that took us a bit time to realise that what, where the juggle of the priorities were. other aspects of my life, I would say I know my prioritisation better. And it's not to say that one priority is better than the other or wrong or anything like that. It's just...

knowing yourself well enough. And even now, I just know that if something is really important to me from a business work side, I will actually prioritize it over climbing if it's a certain thing. And that's where I have to learn to put things in boxes. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true.

I'd say when we met maybe like 2012 or something around the Century Crack period, was like, this isn't like a climbing athlete that just happens to coach. Really psyched on the coaching, but as an athlete first. then pretty much since Lattice in my eyes, it's kind of like, I would definitely say.

you know compared to say like Pete particularly at that time, like he was far more just all his energy was going into climbing as far as I could see and then you were like mixing things up all over the place and squeezing, even in like now squeezing in training around bits of work or time on our laptop and stuff. So yeah, maybe the distraction is just not all the projects, it's other things in life. I'll come back to kind of the work elements a bit later but.

Stranger than fiction, what grade is it and how hard is that for you in terms of like compared to your sphere of like lifelong performances? Is it right up there in terms of the best? If you send it, it'll be one of the hardest things you've done. Yeah, I think it's at the...

the limit of my current performance and it would have been at the limit of my performance five years ago or so I would say. Probably the best I climbed so far in my career was somewhere between 2015 and 2019 I would say was the absolute highest grades I was consistently climbing in my life. And this project is...

I mean, you plug it into Darth Vader, I think it, Darth Grader, Not into Darth Vader, we can't get Star Wars grades out it. Into Darth Grader, then you get hard 8C or soft 8C+. If I intuitively...

benchmark it against other crack routes around the world that me and Pete have done over the years in that kind of grade range I would say actually fairly solidly would sit in the 8C plus and if you moved it down to the 8C you might need to move a load of 8Cs down into the cash rig again and you get that sort of circular argument where you go well what's the benchmark anyway so it's definitely right at the limit for me and it will

It will probably be the best thing that I will have climbed or the hardest thing that I would have climbed in a very long time due to the very diverse nature of the climb itself. You have to be good at every single skill within crack climbing and you have to be fit and you have to be strong. You can't just be fit. You can't just be strong. And you've got to have really good technique with

Um, cool. So, so you're looking at about 8c, 8c plus and absolute mix of styles, skills and physical attributes that go into it. How old are you at the moment? 45. 45. So it's a number I don't like, has to be said. Well, it kind of is pretty cool though. So pretty much you peak to 35 to 39.

as far as what you're saying in terms of 2015 to 2019 and when you were working 60 hour weeks, 50, 60 hour weeks? Yeah, they were big, very big weeks for quite some time. I mean, looking at Pete and where he is in his career and he's 34.

I would say he is still constantly on the upper trajectory. So it wouldn't surprise me if I saw in him that same peak of performance somewhere in those years of mid thirties to late thirties as well. Is that because of you guys being mostly crack climbers or skill-based climbers over pure...

max strength and power like boulderers? Or is it just you guys as individuals that you've built experience? Or is it a case of just, do you think this is becoming more normal in climbing to peak a bit later in your career? You know, compared to most sports in late 20s, early 30s? I mean, in reference to the latter question, I think it's, it is a sport where you can peak really late on in life. And some respect of that or some aspect of that.

is that it's such a high skill sport and you need such a bank of experience to get to your peak that even if you're on potentially the physical

downward slope, you're still gaining so much on the technical mental aspect that net you're gaining and so your grade goes up and that's with the idea that a lot of climbers don't start at 10 years old. They come across climbing in a university or even in that adult life as a new hobby that they take up. So I think that upward slope can be really steadily upwards for a long long time.

But with respect to mine and Pete's experience with it, I think it becomes like this in particular because crack climbing itself is a very, very rounded climbing performance as such. There's so much technical skill, especially...

And I'd say strategic as well. There is a fair bit of mental, but it's not the kind of mental mindset thing that most people might think around fear and boldness and going for it. think it's more around the confidence to take things on, which are very physically hard, but might take a long time. There's stuff around pain management, discomfort, et cetera. But it's really the technical and strategic element that...

I feel like I'm still learning loads now after 20 years of climbing cracks a lot. And me and Pete have this conversation quite often when we're on trips and go, can you believe it? I just learned a new technique. Or we'll find something about the way we use our thumb on the side of the crack and go, I mean, the first question, rather the first comment is always, Pete, you put that in the book, which is now like an ongoing joke that we're constantly wrecking his book that there's another edition to be done of it.

But it's amazing how much there is to still learn and maybe one of the more rewarding things that keeps me in that particular niche for so long because every single year ago, well, I'm significantly better in terms of my technique than the previous year. And this is weird that there's still more to learn.

Have you gone back to some of the climbs you've done which may have been warm up climbs or moderate level climbs in the desert and stuff and now you just climb them so much better than you did even when you've not been to the desert in a while because of that skill base? Yeah, absolutely. And that's even from just a few years back. And I normally shake my head and go, I was such a punter.

That's unbelievable. And if you'd asked me in early, you know, 2020, 21, 22, are you a decent crack climber? I'd go, yeah, I think I pretty much know what I'm doing. And now in 2025, I'd oh no, I didn't know what I doing. Obviously there's an element of once you've done something, it's easier to do it because you've got the belief. But could you reverse pyramid your entire career now? So say if I was like, I want you to go back and do...

the hardest stuff you've done in the desert, like necromancer and stuff, then go to Squamish. I'll tell you if you want For do Cobra. Cobra and then CentriKrak. And if you were like reverse pyramiding your career, do you think you could just do that and would it be way easier? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I haven't. And this is also a conversation that me and Pete have had a number of times of going, I think it would be very, what's the word?

it'd be confidence boosting for us to go back to some of this older stuff because I think we would find it quite straightforward because there's a few things that we've gone and either had a quick dabble on or have actually gone back and done again and realized we were yeah significantly moved on even from down the white rim of having one of the roof cracks down there that had a finish on it that

think five years beforehand we thought was absolutely desperate and was very very difficult and then five years later we could just do it repeatedly and we were already really good off with Climbers then because that was probably five years after we'd done Century Crackle maybe even longer and yeah it's surprising how much it keeps going

Yeah, mean, to be blunt, I always find it really funny when you, because you've got your measuring stick of the cellar and you come in after having a period of maybe not climbing or doing stuff or pying or whatever and you said, I've just hit my benchmark like I'm doing this really easily. But then I can see you on normal climbing and I'm just like, but I know you're not physically better. And I know it's not just physical, obviously as a coach, the...

level that the skill makes a difference always kind of shocks me because then I'm like, is Tom just deluding himself? And actually he just wants to be in good shape and he's not and this is how he gets himself ready for a trip. But then you end up going away and doing really well on the trip. So it does, it surprises me that there is so much learning going on and it just seems to be compounding rather than like your physical abilities, which dip up and down with the effort that goes in.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Even case in example would be stranger is me and Pete went out there one year and then a year later went out again with Brittany and I kind of shook my head at how I was climbing some of the sequences in the first year and what was I doing and all those sizes I know how to do them.

I mean it was all the more impressive that Pete climbed it that particular season with what I would say was most certainly suboptimal sequences and methods on some of that stuff and I think if he went back to it again this year he would go, right, okay yeah, that's alright. Because he was a 9a climber at the time and in the absolute form of his life and he had to try very, very hard to do that.

How is it with the pain tolerance then at the moment? Obviously, like you've been doing this a long time. One thing I was thinking then is younger climbers don't, well, historically younger climbers haven't gotten to really hard crack climbing too early. And I was thinking, I wonder what the lifetime span of a crack climber is if they were like,

really focus on their finger cracks and stuff because of just joints and soft tissues and obviously I've seen Pete's fingers so their body does adapt and create sausages but how do you deal with the the pain now?

Do you still have the desire to push into that pain threshold as much, both from the endurance, physical effort perspective on a long climb or a slow climb, and also for the joints and stuff? Has it changed? Do you look for that still? I mean, the most important issue or topic to address for sure is the finger joints. And I would say that there's a very definite cost.

or price that me and Pete have paid for that with our fingers. There are certain things on individual fingers that we both have which probably will never get better now and are ongoing issues. I have a middle finger on my left hand which is quite a bit bigger on my dip joint and that's never gonna change now and causes me real issues. So...

Yeah, the aggressive training and...

talking of your fingers into finger cracks, especially I would say on onsites, I don't think is that great for your fingers and you'll slowly damage them. And I've seen that by talking to lots of good crack climbers from different countries. And if you look at the time that they spent specializing on trying finger cracks, for example, is more or less whatever age they are, whether they're 30 now or they're 45 like me, about 10 years,

in your fingers are cooked. It's not like they're wrecked they just bear the scars of the battle and you have to work around them a little bit. Like nowadays I'm very very careful about how much on-siting I do on half finger cracks because

I have to have quite a bit time off afterwards because my joints are so sore from doing that work because they're just not as flexible now, they're much stiffer and they've got a few problems and niggles and if a niggle does occur through training, I stop it so early and take quite a bit of time off from that style of stuff. But in contrast, the bigger joints around the hips and the knees and things, I would say they're as good as they and the ankles as well, as good as they've ever been. And I haven't.

got any problems those like last year going back and doing all the training for Autobahn out in Germany and that being an exact replica of the training I did for Sentry I felt great the bigger problem was getting back into the pain cave as such and going do I want this anymore do I like it can I do it is it appealing and that was that was a process getting into that because initially I felt like I'd

spitting off too much when I committed to the project and did the first month of training down the cellar and went, I don't think I've got this anymore. I just can't do these sessions. They're so fricking painful. And what happened then? So you did do it though. Did it, did the switch flick? Did it just build over time? What made you keep going back down there when you knew it wasn't quite as easy?

So the first thing I did was I spent quite a bit time thinking about why was I in it for the project? Like what are my true reasons for doing this? Could I walk away? How important was it to me for the process as well as the goal for it? And once I'd kind of checked in with that and spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, it's not like a day or a couple of days thinking about it. I'm just repeatedly coming back to it.

over a period of maybe, I'm going to say a month, was I noticed that by just focusing my mental stress on why I was in it on that project, more time had passed and almost subtly, I'd just become accustomed to the discomfort again. And I think what I've learned from that one is that...

It's almost like a fear of falling thing is you get to January 2025 and you're going great, you can take big whippers, you're really confident above bolts and it's really good. And you can almost talk yourself into this thing of I fixed my fear of falling. I can take massive whippers all the time and I can go for it. And then January, 2026, you're back to the start and you go, I hate falling. I hate sport climbing. I want to be a boulder.

And that's the way the brain works is that I think it has these peaks and troughs and we maybe need to be a bit more realistic and kinder to ourselves to go, we're not robots and we can't just program this stuff in. You've got to take the hit and work up again. Yeah. Someone who has to do full practice every January. I relate to that analogy completely. I mean, you're dead right. And it's the same. nice thing is, I guess it's like with hypertrophy, I think.

there's now evidence saying that once you have had muscle, if you lose it, you'll be able to get it back at 40 % of the time or 30 % of the time. So you will probably get it back sooner, but the longer you leave it, the longer it'll take to get back. And the same with the mental elements, I guess. One question before we move on about the fingers.

Research paper comes out, they've looked at all the best crack climbers in the last 20, 30 years, assuming there was more. And they are now saying that what you're doing right now means you won't be able to use your hands once you pass 75 and they'll just be completely arthritic and painful. Would you carry on?

can't use my hands at all or it's just painful? It's just painful, they're not the most functional. You know, one of our good friends dad's hands who's had surgery on Dupatrons. Yeah. It's like that. So you're guaranteed to be in like a bit of pain and you can't climb or use them that much in day to day in like a normal way because they're so stiff. Would you carry on doing what you're doing? 75 years old, that's the number I've been given.

Yeah, that's exactly research papers very conclusive on this. I mean, straight away when you were saying that I was going, well, I don't know if I'll live beyond 60. So I think I've got to get out on this. But let's just say I'm optimistic and I do live beyond 75. The balance scale is still on all the enjoyment that I've had out of doing this to the price that I'd pay out the long run for.

years I'm live after 75 I don't not that much but I'll be underwater at that point anyway yeah I mean if you asked me the same question again when I'm 75 situation I'll go I wish my younger self had thought about my future self so I don't know whether you should that's probably a typical Tom answer that I just go for whatever seems cool right now and I'm really enjoying yeah

Absolute cop out.

Cool, so the pain cave, we know based on research, based on anecdotal evidence, athlete stories, when someone is mentally fatigued, it's much harder to push into the pain cave or push effort, the perception of effort goes higher. They've done that in basic studies where they get someone to watch the screen and click on a dot.

and then do a cycling wing gate test, a maximal effort cycling test, and they just can't go as long, or their perception of effort is higher. You've had quite challenging year, both in terms of work, for his working together, and then you recently gone through a divorce. How has that affected you as a climber in terms of...

some of those challenges and that mental fatigue. And as a businessman and a person as well, do you find that your ability to try hard like you used to has changed and your approach to all of those things changed by the recent life circumstances? Yeah, it's good question. it's an interesting one having...

gone through some really significant life stress over the last few years and it's been a definite journey which has made me, I think ultimately become a bit more realistic and kinder to myself but also

understand a bit more about the clients that we work with and the people that I've coached over the years who have had a lot going on in their life and we often refer to this in I've never done it in other podcasts and some of the content I produced around an allostatic load and saying to people you know if you've got a massive work conference that you're doing where you're traveling abroad every single weekend no matter how much of a chill week that you have and you're really managing your training load

this is going to really impact the training that you have from the session efforts to the recovery to the kind of mental energy and stability that you have to be able to put into it. And I think I've learned the hard way that exact same thing. And what was, I suppose, most interesting about it was I would say in, you never quite get the dates right, but probably.

the late teens, not my age, but like 2018, 19, et cetera. And then 2020, 2021, when I was also doing a load of ultra running, I had this approach where outside of my climbing, there were a lot of things going on that were really hard work mentally.

but I was still incredibly motivated, like insanely motivated for my climbing and performance still. And I found that maybe because quite practiced with doing uncomfortable climbing styles and being in a position of kind of in inverted commas pain, I was just like, I'm sucking this up. And for a while I had this positive feedback process of, whoa, I can still do this. I can take everything on. I'll just smash myself.

and I still seemed to do kind of okay. And I thought maybe, wow, this is all you need. You just find your reason, find your why, you know, like that guy and push on and don't be scared of the discomfort. Even though it feels like a lot, you will be fine. And I did that for a number of years. And I would say in 2020, late 2022, 23, that kind of all came crashing down.

and I started to really, really feel the effects of it. Basically, my climbing motivation just went off a cliff. It was so hard to really find the true love for things. I felt like I was just trying to like...

maintain it and strategically find things that were low-hanging fruit that I still did have some motivation for and just ignore the other things I just I didn't have the desire for and at the same time my life felt like it was derailing in a number of different areas and work is becoming really hard, relationships becoming really hard and it was it was a lot for sure and that was the point where I realized I was putting myself through the ultimate

experience for trying to be a good climber that we always talk to our clients about of don't take too much on and if you have got too much on this is probably not going to go that well for your climbing and I lived that. Yeah I think probably the most obvious example from that time which I can remember is like you said when you're in that running phase and we know that like loads of

amazing elite ultra runners have got into it after some kind of like terrible life circumstance and then when you're running loads and being like I know what's going on behind the scenes relationship wise, work wise and you're still managing to fit the time in and I think other people are seeing just like the end results aren't they of like all the running and the efforts and the records and stuff

But maybe it was like you said, 2022, like we started running. I was running a lot of the time, we were running together and then you started having like, your body just said no, didn't it? And you were, we'd be running along a couple of miles in and it'd be like you'd drank eight pints in one go and your head, you couldn't like stand up right, were totally like blood pressure, whatever had happened had gone. And I know you've had investigations with that, but.

Yeah, your body was pretty much like, cool, no, no more doing this. But then climbing so much less stressful, we can all say what we want. Climbing is so easy compared to some other sports, like compared to running, in particular for cardio. So you could carry on with that and I saw you immediately flip. And then again, your body kind of started just going, no, I'm not having this. And I think it was a really fine...

Discrete lesson in like you said you can just keep pushing we are designed to suffer quite a bit But that chronic element of both mental and physical like something's gotta give But do think if you'd backed off? Not done as much physically it would have been the same result because the mental load or do you think it was just because the amount you were doing as well?

now with hindsight because... What would you have done with hindsight actually? On retrospect with in terms of climbing, running, training, considering all the life circumstances have been exactly the same on hindsight what would you have done? I think with hindsight I would have looked at everything going on in my life and drawn...

a line under at least 50 % of the things that are going on and going. These are nice haves and I would like to do those things.

but I can't do all of them and I would have prioritized the stuff which was actually the most important in the long run. But I tried to keep going with way too many things in a just sort of perpetuating stuff and having my fingers in too many pies, trying to do too many sports, trying to do too much traveling, trying too much projects, training at the same time, just everything was all.

too much because I had too much of a track record of just grind on this will be okay like that phrase I have said to myself so many times I mean you have also seen the other side where you see me in absolute pieces like I'm this is not okay but I do say to myself this is okay a lot because it generally does work out eventually it's but you do shoot yourself in the foot sometimes when you make incorrect

conclusions about this stuff. Yeah, I find now, and this is me trying to act like I'm older than I am. I'm only 35, so I've got very little life wisdom really, but I definitely see people in their 20s now, there's a lot less hustle and a lot less willingness to grind in a lot of communities. To be frank, I'm going to say it is in the climbing community because a lot of...

A lot of younger people now have seen what it means to have a better lifestyle. And part of me is probably a little bit jealous of that, having worked all of my twenties and just grinded. But then I think when you get into that habit, you can carry on into your thirties, but it seems like because the things in life get bigger, you're trying to approach it with the same way. you can't, when we were working late twenties, early thirties, the way we were.

just doing ridiculous hours in the week. The life stuff that you're kind of negating is not that big of a deal in some ways, but as you get married, you have kids, the business gets a bit, like you start employing loads of people. It suddenly seems heavier and you try and do the same thing, but all of a sudden it's like really serious, isn't it? And I think that seems to be the biggest change I've noticed is the...

ramifications of ignoring stuff, like just seems way bigger now. Like even just for us at Lattice, like we went from you, me and a couple of mates, which you just have a conversation with everyone to having a whole HR system, a massive team. People have their mortgages based on this company. So you can't not do things in the same way. So yeah, like the things you need to drop off.

You have to drop off, like you say, way more, like 50 % rather than just, right, I'm not gonna go for a pint tonight. Yeah, it's almost like the opposite of what I like telling people in their 20s of do as many things as you can and make loads of mistakes and learn, learn, learn and experience. That's kind of like the thing to do in your 20s because the...

The results of that is you carry so much experience that you've directly had in your life into your 30s and 40s and then you simplify or focus down on what works for you and maybe not all of us are the best at doing that. So I suppose from a climbing perspective, that comes down to maybe the...

the climbing population out there, knowing that your early years of coming to climbing, maybe those first 10 plus years, is try and put as many broad experiences into that. And then as time goes on, you understand what makes you tick and what you're motivated by and what you're of like, you're wise in climbing, then focus those things down because outside of it, the stuff that's going on in life, which generally we really want to do, and we can't just switch them on. can't just...

switch off your family, your job, your hobbies, your friendships. Those are really important things to maintaining happiness in life. So make sure the climbing is somewhat focused. Yeah, it's, I always think about this for myself. I've been really lucky of not having any major life traumas, family tragedies, any of that stuff in the last few years. And I've, since I turned 30, I've pretty much like cashed in on so many experiences.

because pretty much we were just, ever since uni I was just absolutely grafting work-wise. And I did do a load of fun stuff, but I didn't live the climate lifestyle, get the experiences. But, or like you say, on...

I don't think I would change anything, but on hindsight, you try and get more of those experiences early on where you have the freedom and the ability. And then now I would be way more focused on like the local projecting and stuff, because it just is so much more convenient. And like, you just know exactly what you can do, be really specific. And you feel like you tick some of those other boxes as well. You can still obviously do it, but if you keep waiting and pushing it back.

for the day they'll come, something else might, like life stuff will kick in and then you don't have the option to do those experiences. One of the things that I notice obviously with, I think it's partly because the amount of running you did, but then obviously stress plays a big role in it. you change, would one of the things you would change in terms of physical training and stuff and activity, would you try and hold on to more muscle mass?

during this period of time. Because that's one thing I always think about. If you're going through a really stressful life period and you are particularly like say if you're like an older athlete going 40s and onwards, hypertrophy seems like such an important thing and gets harder and harder with stress. We all lose weight tend to when we're really really stressed. Would you have put more effort into hypertrophy during that the last five years?

So the answer, I can't give a particularly straight answer because I think with hindsight now, my foray into the ultra running thing for two years was most certainly the biggest mistake as such that I've made in my climbing career.

So there's a fairly big part of me which feels regret towards that to some extent. There's other bits where I'm like, no, I made my choices. I knew what I was doing and I had some amazing experiences by doing that. But if you think about solely my climbing career.

that was, it wasn't quite a nail in a coffin, but it was like I closed the door of the coffin, nearly buried myself in that because I totally detrained over two years. I was so spread thin. I lost a whole load of muscle mass from my shoulders. I remember you even taking the mick out of me and going, look at your spaghetti arms and your shoulders. Where's the muscle in your shoulders gone? And I don't even have that much. I'm a kind of semi-skinny.

semi skinny guy who isn't very muscly and have to work fairly hard to put any muscle mass on. So that definitely was bad for it and then as you alluded to before some of the health issues that I had as a result of pushing it so hard during that period and having...

It was nearly a year where was just in and out of hospital, just having constant checkups and things and working out why I was just feeling so nauseous and sick and dizzy from exercise. Plus the chronic fatigue and kind of recovery that it took me to get out of that. Those really affected my climbing and I was shocked at how long it took to get back from that. wasn't just, right.

peel everything back, go really simple, and then within three to six months, I was back to where I felt like I was. I'm still not back to where I was. Pre-2020, I used to have training sessions all the time in the evenings. I'd even do stuff down in the cellar till two or three in the morning and have these monster sessions and it'd be amazing and I'd feel really good for them and then get up pretty early the next day with the kids and just be fine. Now...

There's absolutely no way I'd do that ever, ever. I'll be wrecked. Well, you literally said to me yesterday, I had a session on Monday and then I rested Tuesday and then had to rest on Wednesday and then Thursday. And yeah, I think it does show that it's like, takes time to build up. And yeah, during that time period running, it was incredible to see the muscle wastage around your upper body.

It's really easy being interviewed by you because we know each other so well. I mean, you kind of know all the backstories for things. Yeah, you don't have to open up rather than just respond. So as we've just talked about there, you've gone through some challenging time periods and...

The reason is partly why I wanted to do this podcast is people just don't see that in normal life day to day. mean, even our staff here at Lattice, our team who we're really close with, a lot of them don't know a lot of the backstory about what's happened and goes on in individual lives because it's private life, isn't it?

but you're a public figure, a sponsored athlete. During this entire period, you've been posting on Instagram. You've been on Lattice YouTube. You've been on Wide Boys YouTube. You're probably like the most spread athlete across so many channels in climbing or one of because of your ownership and businesses and so on. How do you kind of balance that reality of being in and out of hospital?

having a stressful home life and then having to still portray an inspiring and motivating view of you as an athlete in the media. Yeah.

I think the answer is that I do it really badly sometimes. I do it okay, others, and I do it really well, others. And so to give you an example is that when it felt like things weren't going very well at all and turning up and producing...

media or content or inspiration or engaging with the climbing community as a whole felt too much then initially for quite some time I would say I did the exact same thing that I do when I go back to off-width thing or

doing anything with discomfort, even in the business where I know the risk is a lot or the complexity of the managing the situation is a lot, just go, just turn up, this is going to be okay. It feels uncomfortable because objectively it's a lot. So don't overthink it, turn up each day and potentially it might just go away and you'll...

you'll be okay. It was just a period for three months, six months, and I feel like I can kind of endure stuff like that. But in that case, it didn't work out that way. And probably six months or so into that, I'm just gonna keep grinding, keep doing my thing, and no one will notice. I felt like the wheels just falling off, really. I...

I just think about any kind of media stuff and I just feel sick thinking about it. It was almost like being, I wasn't quite like I was being trapped, but I was doing something I really, really didn't want to do anymore. And I knew it, I fully knew it. And that was the point where I had to do what for me felt like a really brave thing because I would say I generally pride myself on pushing on and

getting through discomfort. I don't really like moaning to people. I like being quite independent and I hold a certain amount of, I suppose, responsibility and accountability to myself to put a view out there into the world that you can get this stuff done and that I want to give people that message and that inspiration that

not everything is easy and you can achieve some really cool things if you just keep trying hard.

But in this case, I hit the brick wall with it. So I reached out to all of my sponsors and I wrote them a fairly sort of exposing email to say, hey, this stuff's going on in my life and I am having an absolute nightmare. And I was really, really honest about it. How much

things were kind of falling apart for me and I said I didn't even know whether I could really do much at all for them for maybe at least six months so I even put quite a long time frame on it because I think it's maybe my sister said to me just say to them a month or so and by yourself a little bit of time but then I thought about it no I just don't think that's long enough so put this long period on them

and all credit to them, especially two of my main sponsors I've been with for a really long time, Wild Country and Rab, who kind of feel like family and friends, is they wrote back to me and they were so incredibly understanding, like more understanding than I would possibly imagine. I think even one of them wrote back and said,

If you don't even do anything for a year, don't worry Tom, it's chill. The most important thing is that you look after you, you're happy and you sort your life out and you get back on track. We're here to support you. And that was one of the best things I ever did for that kind of professional side of my career because it took the pressure off. It told me that the value in me was not just constant posting and keeping up on the forefront and also told me that there were

that actually bought into me as a person and what I was doing and it's not just this short-term thing that we can maybe get deluded into these days that is always like hit the content hit the thing you've got to be churning you always got to be right in front of people's humans don't really work like that if something's gone on long enough

it has a long tail to it as such. A bit like when me and you talk about brand is that brands take a very, very long time to build, but they also take a really long time to kill. And that first initial step of pulling back and giving myself a bit of space was...

by far the best thing I did because it allowed me to go into my life and especially the climbing side and the content side of things and go, what am I actually motivated for and what do I like getting involved with? And that was like rebuilding from there. Yeah, I mean, that's amazing that, well, one that you did it, I do think that's like, I can imagine loads of athletes out there, younger athletes in particular that are just going through something and they...

they might either one send like a brief message which doesn't really allude to it properly, won't be taken on board enough or assume they can't say those things and

One, it's great the way that you've done it. And then secondly, the fact that the sponsors have been so receptive, particularly in this world of new marketing person joins brand, gets rid of half team, cuts budget. And like these days, we know the budget's being cut all over the place. so the fact that they've stuck with you is so great. But like you said, you've been with them for so long. There is a relationship there. It's beyond that. And like I...

I've seen people come up to you at the crag when we've been in the States and stuff, and obviously your fame in terms of climbing, just because you've stopped posting, that doesn't stop that tailwind at all, it? I guess the difference is with people is, I remember I stopped, because I didn't use Instagram, and I stopped posting, and a year later I saw a friend of mine at a party, and said, I thought you'd quit climbing.

And I was just like, no, I've climbed more than ever actually. I just not posted anymore. But I guess with yourself, you've built such a reputation and stuff. That's gonna continue. The identity is gonna continue. The brand, as it were, of Tom Randall is gonna continue. And I think sponsors actually being receptive to that and appreciative of that is really good, particularly today. Yeah, because it's easy for people to be cynical about it and...

I overly focus on some of the negative sides of that story of the commercialism of climbing and the kind of the branding of athletes. But, and it is true that some of that does occur and.

It's something that you have to manage as a climber and as an athlete. And I've, I have had some negative experiences with some sponsors over the years and invariably that's resulted in me going, I don't want that anymore. So I'm going to part that arrangement or I'm going to change it up because it didn't feel right. But also there is so much good stuff that goes on. And like a classic example of that being that

I remember for a long time, I was so cynical about Red Bull and me and Pete and a few other athletes. It was like a chat that we used to have on climbing trips and someone would say, how much would you have to be paid to be sponsored by Red Bull? And we'd say things like, it's going to have to be a really big number, like a life changing number because...

I'm just not into that drink. It just seems like the fast fashion of climbing, just full adrenaline, but climbing isn't really like that. It's people, it's relationships, it's adventure and everything. And we were so anti it, but then the first time I went over to Switzerland and actually work with them on an event and met all of the team and saw how they actually view sport and adventure and

how they treat their athletes, I went, okay.

behind this shiny exterior, there is an incredibly human element to it. And they're so kind and they really care and they have some very, very good reasons for the way that they're doing things. And so you've got to be careful to not just focus on the rage bait as such, because it has a place, but it's not everything. There's other stuff on there that is really good.

and you just have to kind of look out there and go, there's some really good athletes that work with them as brands and there's a reason for that because of this stuff. I've never heard the word term rage bait before, but I mean, it's a really good point. I think I had exactly the same view of being like, they are only with them because they're getting paid X. fundamentally, I think the brands that have more money,

will look after their athletes really, really well. Or generally speaking, they will do. And I think Red Bull does seem to do that, which is awesome. I mean, one thing you've kind of alluded to there is I think both of us have come under criticism in the last five, 10 years of commercializing coaching, climbing through lattice. So we have, there's loads of memes out there about us cashing in.

And I personally found it really hard because we've built an amazing group of people to work with. We've worked with so many people that are very appreciative. And it's just, it's literally just coaching. It's just, we do it more globally and we just have a team. But the team is still a bunch of climbers in Sheffield, effectively of coaches and friends and stuff. And we all go climbing together. But.

Like obviously you're a much bigger public figure and because of your associations with Wide Boys and Climbers Crag and other things, I you've personally come under a lot of fire in the media and people don't like your approach to the art of climbing as it was. Like how have you kind of personally reconciled that and dealt with it and do you find it hard going to the crag or whatever if you hear comments and stuff?

So, yeah, in simple answer to your last question about whether I find it hard if I hear comments at the crag or even online as well, then yeah, I do. But it sits on a scale of it's manageable, hard. I'm not inhuman. I really care about what people think, but there's also a limit to it. And I'll sort of talk about how I manage that and...

what I find works well and hopefully other climbers, especially sponsored climbers or people that are a little bit more in the spotlight may find useful. yeah, to sort of state clearly, it's not easy for me. There are periods where I have a...

I wouldn't say months of feeling really rough on it, but I can have a day where I think, yeah, that was pretty unpleasant and I don't quite know why I'm putting up with this. so yeah, to go back to the start is I'd say I've had a reasonably okay ride into this because I came more into the public spotlight and I became a professional climber.

from about, I would say, onwards. And that was where everything was very forum related. And it wasn't really about Instagram. There was a little bit on Facebook, but it really just the forums and magazines and things like that. So I had at least five years, probably longer, of my only interaction within the public space to a greater audience was in written text format.

and was a very niche set of people, forum people, I'm say forum guys, because it's mostly guys on there, are, when you spend enough time on there, quite predictable, and you know them well, and you understand them well on how to communicate with them. And so I went through this process of at least five years of getting some of the backlash over things, and in a low-key way, like a non-hyped-up version, what it's like on Instagram nowadays, where a comment can just spiral out to 500 people.

Reloading on your post about whatever you've done back then it would just be a single thread on UK climbing that people would get pretty Antagonistic about and I might get two emails of someone moaning at me as well So it was an easy entry to it. So I had a whole load of time to basically work out how I would feel about that stuff and how to deal with it and It really came down to

when I had a few times where I was quite affected. There's one where I was involved with the retro bolting of a trad route, where I got a lot of flack for it. And I kind of talked to people, especially Pete at the time as well, because I was climbing with him a lot. And really what it came down to was there are opinions out there in the outer world and some opinions, I'm afraid, kind of matter more than others. And the people that are the closest to you,

and the people that are the most involved in the thing that you're doing, they're the ones to pay attention to. So if it's a retro-bolting issue, anyone who's involved in the bolting or retro-bolting of roots and your close friends, that's who you should pay attention to. And not some person, I'm afraid, I mean, they're not gonna like it, I say this, but someone who only boulders and they're from a completely different country and they've just jumped on the bandwagon of people complaining about on you.

So have that approach with it. And then secondly is try and keep focusing on your reason for why you communicated the way that you did in terms of your action or the thing that you wrote on a forum or on the internet and focus on that because that's really what's at issue here. It's not the external feedback as such. It's the thing that you did and you communicated.

So if you actually put your effort into putting mental gymnastics and processing into that thing and really understanding what did you do and what effect was that going to cause for others and being a little bit more internal about it rather than external is I think you get a bit more pinpointed in terms of understanding how you then communicate with the people that matter, but also that you work out for you personally, whether you do that thing again and whether it actually

is okay or whether you move away from it and you made a mistake and then you move on. If you make a mistake or get something wrong or people don't like it and at the end of it you go hmm that wasn't ideal move on and adapt and don't don't linger on it. What's been kind of the I don't know if you'd be able to say it retrospectively but what's been one of the biggest kind of mistakes you made in in terms of media and you know maybe whether it is you stepped in

to argue a point for too long or you didn't step in and actually you should have just called them up or said something. Like have you got a time where you're like, that was actually a really good learning for me where it really went wrong. I don't know if I have one for me particularly, although I have done things that I haven't been happy with once I've thought about afterwards.

But a particular instance which I know I've been very careful to not get involved with, which I do see happen quite a bit on social media, is when someone gets pulled up for something, which is a behaviour that the climbing community has an issue with, I think it's really poor for people to wade in on that action right there and then in that space, whether it's a...

forum thread itself or an Instagram post itself. Because I don't think any issue around an action is ever solved with back and forth debate on the internet. I've so rarely...

seen that happen and this comes from someone who has loved the forums from the 2000 onwards and forums never go that way and you've got some really intelligent well thought out reasons people that take an hour plus to sometimes write a reply to something everyone's just trying to win their point it's not about finding out what's right and wrong and trying to move on from it they just want to win on the internet and i think it's a bit more of an ego thing so with that stuff around

Yeah, problematic actions and communication on the internet. I think people need to step out of that arena and get the people that are involved with it and say, let's all just get on a joint call or let's all meet up somewhere and discuss this face to face because that's where things are actually resolved. Yeah. mean, one of the things that we've always said at Lattice and I think this is the ethos that you've you taught me actually is

kill it with kindness. We actually kill them with kindness, but kill it with kindness. And that was, I had the, because I'm not a pro athlete and haven't been in the limelight. I remember when lattice started getting more attention, I wanted to wade in and go on the defensive. And we always said, well, just act really kind, be really, really morally good in the scenario. Kind to that person, you don't know what's going on in their life. And

we've only done the actions that we are happy with anyway, so we don't need to defend ourselves. And I know like even in the last maybe 18 months ago or something, or 12 months ago, we had a load of backlash from an individual. I know you tried to phone them up, let's have a conversation, let's not argue any of these points. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

And it's really hard that when their community, their cult circles around, which is really nice to go on the defensive if that's what they genuinely believe, but it's quite hard when people don't engage with you and you can't be kind, you're not given the opportunity to just sit there and take it, it? And it's something I still struggle with. I mean, you're much better at it than I am. And I think that's maybe just from your history of dealing with it.

Yeah, I think what you said about the kind of kindness element is really important because we are all just climbers on the end of our keyboards or phones. And when you see all of us at the crag or down the wall, everyone is so nice to each other.

people aren't just raging at each other in person, they just don't do that in reality. I think we forget that on the internet. So that's a really good point. And like you said, with the the incident that we had last year of trying to deal with a really difficult situation, essentially a kind of a PR situation for us as a company. And it was, it was really challenging to have this

I split of how a situation would occur that what I was trying to do was just communicate face to face, one to one with someone to be able to sort through issues. But that person for them, I suppose their why and the way they do things that they want to operate in a much wider way on the internet. But my why is no, I want to actually solve the issues out. And my method is to do that. don't.

I don't get into comment wars on the internet and at the end of the day you have to stick to your method, not get too wound up about the whole thing and yeah me and you we talked quite a bit over those few weeks and it's stressful trying to stick with how do we do things this is our method of how we communicate.

And what about the original point in terms of your commercializing climbing, you're at the forefront of being part of that wave. Now it's an Olympic sport, now there's big money in it, it is a commercial entity. Does it feel different now? Do you still struggle or get any of those sorts of comments like you used to and how have you dealt with that over the years?

So I think we're in a constant.

commercialisation of climbing and it is occurring and it continues to occur and it's really hard to say whether I think it's a good thing or a bad thing. It's probably a good and a bad thing and you've got to appreciate

reasons why you think it's bad and then the ones why you think it's good and deal with those for what feels right for you or your organization or anything like that. So coming to Lattice for example is that me and you in those early years have had quite a lot of flack over the amount of content we produced online and the amount of marketing that we did.

one thing that we always came back to was we're so passionate about education and sharing our know-how and methods with the climbing community that it was almost like this guiding light that no matter how much shit we get on the internet it was but we're just gonna keep telling people how to get stronger how to get fitter how to get flexible how to get better at climbing because

they'll eventually get it that this is why we're in business and this is what me and you are really passionate about. Like I watched you in the car park yesterday when you were super busy at work, meetings here, there, everywhere. And one of our staff came up to you and asked you about a lumbricals issue. And you took all the time to actually go through that with them despite being really busy. And for me, that was just like this classic thing of

Ollie's always been into helping people out, sharing his knowledge and experience. And that always comes through. It's just that if it has a veneer of media and polish on it, it's going to feel unpalatable. So for some people, for example, if that incident had ended up being filmed and someone just happened to be recording it on a reel at that time, people go, this is This is just set up. Ollie just needed some...

injury advice reel to put on Instagram. But in reality, no one filmed it. It was never recorded. It was just me watching it and going, huh, yeah, Ollie's still that same guy. And this is where we have to work out whether we focus on the negatives or whether actually we look at the intrinsic good underneath it. Yeah, I totally agree. I think you can still see, I can still, know some individuals that are now going fully into climbing in their careers.

whether it's physios or other professionals and you can see them starting to put out this content is purely to support what they're doing, which is giving out really good information. And it just happens to be that they want to work in the industry, which means they'll become better at what they do, which means they'll be able to share more. And it's just that cycle, but there has to be a bit of give and take in both directions. And like you say,

My kind of guiding light was always, I loved men's health and men's fitness and all that because it was the best training magazines. Climbing magazines were cool and I think, say like, Gresh did an amazing job of writing in them, but there wasn't enough in there in terms of like training and improvement and I just kind of wanted to do that. And the other thing is, you look at Sheffield now and all of mine and yours climbing friends and acquaintances and there are so many people.

employed in climbing jobs in Sheffield now. And that's a really good thing about the commercialization of climbing is that there's a whole load of jobs where people get to work in an area that they're passionate about. So there's good sides, there's bad sides. So going back to, we're going to change it up a little bit. There's a question I always think is really interesting to ask high performers is...

Do you feel like you've sacrificed too much in the pursuit of goals? Whether that's health, relationships, your own happiness, other goals. Because you can be quite one track minded at times, but then you've been balancing with business, like you say, you you sacrifice, you're climbing in some ways for the business and so on. Do you think you've sacrificed too much at any point?

Absolutely not, no. I'm so, so sure about that sacrifice thing, even though I can at times see it as being a cost as such and a negative thing, which I think objectively it could be if it affects other things in your life. But the...

big reason why I am so consistent about being really passionate about my climbing and then also the stuff that I do within businesses is that I am really, really focused about creating something for the climbing industry or the climbing community which has some kind of positive impact and...

That's what it always goes back down to me for me is that, like my own climbing, I really want people to see how cool these cracks are all over the world and they can climb some of the best lines ever and that they can see that you can be a high performer, but you can have loads of fun with it and be really silly and be happy with it. And likewise with the businesses, I want them to produce good things. I am not interested in the slightest in just

producing some random that yeah, might make some money, but it's... It just doesn't have a positive impact. I did that down in London when I was doing my finance job. I don't have a positive impact on the world. It may call on money, but...

It was nothing. That was a good lesson in itself. It has to leave something for other people. And that's a really rewarding thing. And you will feel good about that no matter how good your week is, your month, your year. And I kind of hope that when I sit there taking my last breath as my rope has snapped or the RP has failed and I'm plummeting to the ground that I've left something

good. And is that even with like, you know, in terms of we talk about the cost there, do you think that you could have balanced in more? You know, we were talking earlier about sort of the health things where you pushed on it even though. So you've got this guy didn't kind of like this and kind of like relatively kind of noble focus in terms of leaving stuff behind, but then you cost your own health.

for a period of time because of other stuff going on. Was that too much or was that, or I've just, wasn't planning on doing that. I've just learned from it and it's just part of life. I think it all depends on how you frame it really. In a short term manner then, yeah, you could say it was too much because it affected.

pretty significant period of my life. It wasn't just a month or two, it was years. So yeah, you could very definitely frame it in that way, but I can most certainly frame it so that it isn't. If I take a bigger, wider view on it, and I suppose that comes down to...

this whole thing of how do you travel through life where you can be as content and as happy as you possibly can be. A lot of it is around framing all of your experiences. And this is, you know, don't listen to this like Tom's as guru in terms of being really happy and content. I am not. I'm quite unhappy and uncontent in lots of periods. And I really struggle with that.

but it's just a constant thing that I'm working towards. And I have this feel and the feedback that the more that I get that framing right, the happier and more content that I get. So yeah, don't hear it like it's great and I'm a five star, a human. No, I'm like a solid three star. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like with everything, isn't it? Context over content, the way you...

context of what's going on means more than what's actually happened in some ways in your perception of that. So what's next? In terms of you have some climbing goals, business goals, you see a place where there's a Tom Randall that is living a slow...

lifestyle are you going to explore anything completely different do you think in the next few years or is it more about building back up to where you were in terms of like you said physically and mentally? Yeah I'm definitely in a period of change and what feels like a I don't know if it's a new era in my life but more like a

a new phase of experimentation and trying to work out what's right for me. I think the, I've moved on now from the hammer it and do absolutely everything. And I maybe did that for, let's just say around 10 years. And I've learned all that I could from that.

and now I feel like I'm kind of in the uncanny valley maybe it's not the right word but I'm gonna say the uncanny valley of life experience goal and direction where I'm pulled back from a lot of things and I've really simplified stuff down and I'm trying to understand what is it

that I really value and will now take up my time and my passion over the next 10 years. So like for example, with Lattice is my roles really changed in the last year or so. And I'm not in there spread all the time, doing managing this project, having these meetings, doing all these things is much more focused and pulled out in terms of the direction of the company and a higher level role.

And then the same thing with my climbing is that I don't try and do every single thing within my climbing the whole time now. I have some quite focused goals and I'm making sure that I have.

plenty of spare time to actually put the effort into getting good at climbing again, essentially sort of regaining some of my form. And what that's meant is that it's bought me a load more spare time and energy to explore some other parts of my life that I've always had just ticking around in the background that I've really enjoyed. I've enjoyed way more of my music again. I've been doing a lot more artwork. I've always had...

just tickling away in the background. I'd be like doodling on my work pads when I'd be having meetings at work and things like that. And I don't quite know where they're all gonna lead, but I do know that I trust the process that previously you let the thing brew.

and give it enough time and it will become clear because right now the next 10 years feels really complex and somewhat daunting. So I just need to give it time because my brain just needs to process it all. It's probably worth me saying, because I always hear when people say things like you've just said in terms of exploring and providing time.

Sometimes it's quite easy for people to be like, God, you must just either be loaded, you're just totally set. What do call them? Kids that just inherit loads of money. Trust funders. Trust funders, yeah, yeah. terms of trust-o-pharians. I think people kind of make that assumption. And knowing your personal finances. Obviously you've worked really hard to be in a position which is comfortable and can allow some of these time.

But it is up and down. Like we've had some hard times at Lattice and stuff and your other businesses. But one of the key things we've always talked about is that never seems to firstly direct your efforts and doesn't really bother you very much in any way. Like I'm quite a nervous person around money in terms of security. But you've always said, I'll just work, I'll make more.

So you've got time, you're obviously still working and you've got time to explore these things. But it's not a case of you're just totally set for life and you don't have to think about any of these things. You've just got confidence in yourself that you'll do this. And if you need to work harder, at some point you will. And you're not overly stressed about that, which I think is quite unique and kind of cool for people to hear.

that you can provide yourself time as long as you've got confidence that you will, you can earn money again and sort out a different lifestyle if needed. Yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, there's a part of me now which feels incredibly guilty over not.

being so, I suppose, monetarily career focused because there's such a strong part of our culture that that's what you always drive towards. It's always bigger, better, more. But I know the things that are really important to me. And to be honest, a lot of things don't actually require a great deal of money. And...

I also see so much value in... I mean there's a kind of like a a fatalistic part of me which goes I can't be interested to find out what happens if I just started again and lost everything and I was there with a hundred quid in my bank balance and

All I have is the friendship, network and experience that I have in life so far and I'll just start again. And it doesn't feel scary. It feels interesting. But I don't really have a reason for why because I did notice this when I did the trading drop down in London, is that that job was very fixated on money and your pay packet at the end of the month was completely correlated.

to how much profit you'd made from trading. So if you made zero, there was nothing in your pay packet at the end of the month, as in zero pounds. You just had to use your savings, et cetera. And if that went on for a long period, then eventually you'd run out of money and you couldn't have a job. But I never had an emotional response to it. It just wasn't that way. Like, I don't really have a reason for it because my parents aren't like that. They're both...

pretty conservative with it. They're quite focused on making sure things are good. And I just kind of accept it as being a nice thing and an advantage. I try and...

bring some of that, especially like to lattice from a business sense with you, is I try and play that role of the person that goes, relax. I know this thing can seem really uncomfortable and risky at the moment, but it's probably gonna all be okay. And so I try and use it to like a, an advantage or a tool. Yeah, it's definitely something I've noticed over the years and seems like a massive strength. And like you said, I think you've actually gone down to

next to nothing in the bank account twice in your life, like 20s, 30s as well. So there's something you and Kim used to say to me quite a bit, being like, it'll be fine if you get completely broke. And I was like, no, I don't want to lose everything. It does seem stressful on the surface. Cool. I think we've covered quite a lot there and hopefully it gives a really open and honest view. So thanks for.

honesty on that. Do you have any thoughts before we finish for people that might be interesting to hear? Thoughts to conclude. Now you've put me on the spot. It's a hard question that isn't it? But maybe there's just something that we've covered that you didn't quite get the last point across or something in the back of your mind. I think I'd probably leave the the last point that I would make which would

very much maybe relate to the business, friendship, partnership thing that me and you have had over the years and I've experienced some other really good partnerships over the years in other areas is that as much that we've gone through all these things I've experienced and ways that I've framed stuff and processes that have for things, it goes without saying that all the areas of life where I've...

found the greatest success or happiness or results or whatever it is, it's nearly always with the backdrop of another really good person that's there and you find that synergy between you. And I've had people ask me over the years about, do you find such a good partnership in Pete? Like, how do I find my Pete, you know, in that? And how do I find my Ollie in that business partnership?

And I think the answer is, that do a lot of brewing, so just keep having discussions with people's conversation. I can't tell you the number of people that I have had chats with over the years from a business perspective that I've gone, oh, I wonder whether there'll be a partner somewhere down the line. I'm just gonna keep talking to them every couple of months, checking with them, see where they are, and loads of them just have never turned into anything. They've just been conversations. And the same with climbing partners. Just a little dip in, dip out, but.

once you give it enough time and you realise it's that thing of going not against the tide, but go with the tide. And when I first met you, I noticed that you were very much like the opposite of me as a coach. You had all these things that I didn't have, and then I had areas that you didn't have. And I think it was probably one of more obvious things when we first started up Lattice, it was like, just combine the two of us. It will make...

better than the two halves for sure. And we've kind of perpetuated that over the years. And that I think is a really important point for people is yeah, look at those partnerships that you have in your life and go with the, go with the momentum and the flow with those, find out what is good between you and work on it together.

Thanks very much and thanks everyone for listening. Hope you found that interesting and we'll see you next time.