Flow and Climbing: More Than Just Effortless Control

Maddy Cope (00:00)
Hello and welcome to this Lattice Training podcast. Today I have with me coach Flo. Hi Maddie. So Flo is a coach here at Lattice Training and today we are gonna talk about Flow State. That is something that you have just completed your performance coaching focused in. And Flo has a long background of climbing, starting in competitions and now focused on rock climbing.

and interesting bit of information. She's also very musical and her DJ name is Flowstate. So extremely apt focus for your coaching. So maybe you can just start off this conversation by explaining what flow is to the people who haven't heard about it and explaining how it helps people.

So flow is an experience which a lot of people will have already been in, don't always have a name for it. And it's when you're doing a task and you feel totally absorbed in what you're doing and not distracted by external thoughts. You kind of,

You have this sense of control within your movement. You're not having to try hard, it just happens naturally. And it happens when we generally have this level of skill and challenge that are in sync with each other, where the challenge is high enough for your skills to match that. Meaning you're having to work hard at it, but it's not so overwhelming.

that it's too much for you to think about. So it's kind of finding a sweet spot that focuses enough of your attention on it to really draw you in, but doesn't feel so overwhelmingly difficult. And I think the interesting point you made there is that so many people listening to this will have experienced this. Like lots of climbers will have experienced it. It may be even something they're really drawn to. It may be even is some of their best climbing experiences that they remember. And do you just want to...

maybe a little bit about some of your flow experiences and actually maybe what would be interesting is whether you recognize them more after working through the flow course or yeah, whether you recognize them any more than versus your sports psychology background, which was the kind of initial degree and masters that you did. Yeah, definitely going through this course, I've become much more aware and able to reflect on when I have been in flow.

And through this course, happened to coincide with me working urgent action at Kilnsay. And I was able to kind of pull all the learning that I got from the course about flow and apply it to this route. And when I was able to send this route, I was able to feel as much as in flow as I have done in the past, but with a bit more conscious understanding of what that was. So for me,

It was being able to climb, feeling totally in control. I remember going through each of the crux sections where I was going through them, but just absolutely knew that I could do each move. I'd look at the move, I knew I could do it. so it's that sense of effortless control and that absorption also was there, but in a different way to I might otherwise have realised.

because when people talk about flow they often talk about not having any thoughts at all. However, in my experience, I was experiencing thoughts. I sometimes had thoughts about doing the route or feeling good. But rather than kind of getting attached to them and then kind of getting that expectation that I might do the route, I was able to really see them just as thoughts and allow them to kind of dissolve away so that...

they were there and then they were gone and they didn't form a distraction for me. So I could stay totally focused on the climbing. Yeah, that was a really wonderful explanation. I feel like it really resonates with some of the experiences I had and I imagine there's going to be a lot of climbers that listening to this that can maybe pinpoint moments in time. And so we'll we'll get on to some of the maybe characteristics of flow, maybe how people can set the scene for this a little bit later.

but maybe we'll just have a little look at, I suppose maybe you would call it the theory. So when we're thinking about flow and mindset and performance, how is it that this state affects our performance? Why are people in sports so interested in it? And why could it actually be really great for kind of life and wellbeing?

So I think to start off this conversation, it's really important to understand that flow isn't something that we should always striving to achieve. It's flow as an experience, an optimal experience. And through that, we can often find optimal performance. We might find that we are able to send our hardest route. We might find that we are able to win a competition in this.

in this mindset, in this experience, but it's not a peak outcome. So that's kind of the first thing to say. But when we are in flow, it's really associated with this intrinsic drive. we're in flow afterwards, we feel like it's a really, really good feeling. And it's a feeling that draws us back to wanting to find more flow again.

And there's a lot of like the research showing that it's really beneficial for kind of our long-term well-being, our self-esteem, our confidence, all those types of things, Flow is able to improve them. Yeah. And when you said there that it can improve your confidence, the sort of your experience that you shared on urgent action, I can really see that in there because you, I can't now remember your exact words, but I guess you talk about being in that kind of

in control of the situation and just doing and not, guess maybe it's not such an over analyzing, overthinking state. And so I suppose when you're just doing, is a sense of the utmost trust in your ability and your body. Yeah. Yeah. Trust is a really good word there. So when it comes to

Like you said, you said we're not striving for flow, but I suppose this is a little tricky balance to get because this whole conversation and the work that you have done with climbers and will continue to do with climbers is set up to try and coach them to try and help them experience flow. So in a sort of non-striving for it way, but in a way that people might want to be able to have this experience.

are there some sort of steps that we can go on to talk about that kind of distinguish flow? Yeah, so we can split this up into three areas. The first one being really cultivating what we would call a flow mindset. looking at motivation, looking at how we approach the situation.

And then we have the next step, which is looking at how we can help focus our attention when we were there. Are we visualizing ourself and flow and imagining those experiences for us? And then that kind of final step is when we are in flow, how can we really cultivate that absorption and that trust in ourselves? Yeah, so I guess...

there's a little bit, you've sort of got a phrase written down here that talks through what you've just done, which is kind of ready, steady flow. So people will know that from like ready, steady, cook and things like this. And so with those three steps, there's sort of a bit of a chronological order there, it seems like. Do you want to give maybe just one example for each of maybe a strategy or technique or something that you would look to?

explore with a person if they're wanting to experience flow. So when you, the first step is kind of being ready. So that's that mindset. It's like what you turn up with. What's maybe an example of a state of mind or a mindset that does set you up for flow. So I think the main one here is motivation, which a lot of people will know kind of, we want to generate that intrinsic motivation that

doing it because we really enjoy it and that's a really important part of flow.

And that's looking at, we focusing more on the outcome or are we looking at that process and are we focusing on how to master the skill? Are we really looking at how we can learn from each situation that we in?

And it's not saying that we shouldn't have that final outcome. It's just that we need most of our attention towards that kind of more enjoyment intrinsically based motivation. Yeah, you see a lot of talk of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And I know that all the people I look to who talk about this, you included, you're not demonizing extrinsic motivation. But when it comes to

flow and these sorts of experiences, the intrinsic ones are what are, I suppose, more deeply meaningful to us. Yeah, and especially when kind of the pressure starts to build, if we're actually got too much of that outcome focus, that's really habitual patterns within our brain. So as soon as the pressure starts to build, it means our brain goes to those really easy patterns that

really easy pathway to say, right, well the outcome really matters. This is suddenly really stressful. I've got all this expectation. I feel like I should do it. Whereas if you've got that intrinsic motivation really dialed in and that's what you really can pull on, when the pressure starts to build, it's like, wow, okay, what can I learn from this? This is really exciting. It's really given me this opportunity to push myself and grow. Yeah, that sort of...

really resonates and I feel describes one of the scenarios where I've experienced flow is a route called Ghost Train in Pembroke. And essentially it's a trad route with a long run out. And obviously there's a thinking about the outcome as in like, am gonna send the route, stuff like that. But I guess when there is a, I guess a danger element, a risk element, there's also an outcome that you could be thinking about like.

Am I going to fall and hurt myself? And that was a real flow experience going back to how you described it before, being like, I'm fully in control of just what I can do right now. And I suppose that's in a sense what you described is being in the moment. And maybe when you're thinking about the outcome, some future moment, you're taking away from that ability for yourself to be immersed in the moment. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So in terms of your...

role as a performance coach in this area, I guess a big part of that is exploring this with people in a conversational way. Yeah, so in terms of the coaching, my aim is to give that person the space and time for them to explore those motivations, kind of really dig into them understanding what it means for them.

and through their reflection, you generally find that people, or always find that people can find that more optimal mindset for themselves. So obviously working with someone such as yourself is an option for people, but do you think there's a particularly good way for people to reflect on this just on their own? So you know, if it's not possible for them to allow that time for them to work with someone else, is there maybe a few

key questions you think people could ask themselves and maybe a way they could try and almost set up that coaching environment with themselves. I don't know whether like writing or I don't know yet. Is there just any approach that you have found maybe even works for you when you're just thinking about this yourself? Yeah, so if we're looking at motivation, asking the questions, what's really important for me in my climbing?

Why do I enjoy climbing? What do I get out of climbing? Kind of questions just to keep probing, okay, why am I doing this? Maybe there's some of those external factors come up, maybe more external factors than the more intrinsic factors and that can help you reflect, okay, how can I dig into what really, really motivates me and enjoys me within climbing? Yeah, I think.

I mean, I've experienced through our kind of internal coach education sessions, some of your work, which I've really loved and it, and also you're a friend of mine and we go climbing together a lot. So I've definitely really felt that benefit of having a person external to you who's questioning and who's allowing you that space to answer. And I think you do that really well. But another option is like a trusted climbing partner. If people do have someone that they...

have built like a very, yeah, trusting climbing relationship with then, you I can see that that would work as well. Yeah. That external person really just helps with a new perspective that just asking them, what do you think I find important in climbing could be really insightful question for you, for them to ask you. Yeah. Okay. So the next one is kind of being steady and this is attention. from...

I will, I wonder, you will let us know, but I feel like this is maybe where there'll be some more strategies that people could use to help them focus. Or do you find this flows quite naturally on from people cultivating that mindset that we just talked about? I'd say both of those are right. If we're able to really cultivate that mindset.

our attention will naturally be focused on the task at hand.

but for ways to actually help with that attention. First of all, I think it's really important if flow is something that you want to cultivate and experience.

we need to tell our brain that that's something that we want. So we will often route read and visualize a climb. But when we are doing that, we visualizing ourselves climbing and flow? say if I'm route reading, am I imagining climbing effortlessly in control? And am I imagining myself being totally absorbed in the moves that I'm doing? Yeah. And that's interesting. Because as you were saying that, I was just imagining sort of a

a loop of where you build more experiences in flow, you build awareness of that reflect, therefore you are maybe more able to visualize in flow. I suppose that's where this seems like a kind of chronological three-step system, but it's not really because your experiences are always feeding back into that ability to visualize it and kind of know what it is. And I suppose that's where...

listening to a podcast like this or learning about flow on a little bit more of an intellectual basis helps build that awareness and sort of, yeah, allow people to therefore understand it, visualize it and maybe build more experience of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So when we're talking about the flow itself, this absorption, one thing you mentioned actually near the start of this conversation is that it's, it's often found

at a sweet point where there's like a balance in our, the challenge and our skill level. Could you just speak a little bit more to that so that people can maybe understand it in a climbing context as well, specifically? Yeah, so this, what we'd call a challenge skill balance.

In flow we find the challenge skill balance is when the challenge is at the same level as our skill or just a bit higher than our skill and the challenge could be difficulty of the climb, it could be how scary you find it, it could be how technical it is.

It could be due to kind of how tired you are on the day. The challenge level will feel higher if you've had a really long day at work and you're super mentally tired. So if you're at the wall and kind of flow is your focus, it's thinking about, okay, well, how can I change the challenge level so that it's gonna match or just be above my skill level so that we can find that sweet spot?

because if it gets too challenging, kind of that arousal and that anxiety is going to start to increase and we're going to not be able to find flow. But if it's too easy, we might first of all be quite playful in control, which is like a really great experience to be in as well, but it's not flow. And then if it gets too easy again, we're like much more relaxed, maybe bored and that motivation is going to really drop off.

Yeah, one thing I actually just found interesting listening there, which is I have sort of, you know, had conversations with you about this before and obviously flow state, something we've both experienced, something we know is a really amazing experience. But as you just talked through it there, obviously some of the states are things I recognize and I've experienced in climbing and, you know, I mean, they come with discomfort and that's also, you can learn from that, but you know, that kind of really high challenge.

level that's a bit more anxiety inducing. And I guess we would maybe see that a little bit more as something we want to avoid, even though there's a lot to be learned there. And then there's this sweet spot, there's flow state, but also there's some of those lower challenge levels that can actually be really relaxing. And I guess, you know, when you just talked about that example of maybe being tired after work, you...

you can climb with flow state as your kind of goal and maybe wanting to access that. But it's always interesting to know these other states. And I think like that relaxation side, I guess there's knowing how to choose the right challenge level and then also knowing that there are other levels and experiences that we can have, which yeah, was just a slightly different way that I thought about that when you spoke through it. So I guess the key thing here, which is probably what everyone's thinking is.

how do I find the right challenge level, especially when it can vary. And I don't know, maybe you can just talk a little bit about your personal experience and how you think you've built up the, I suppose, knowledge to know what was the right challenge level for you. Like, I don't know, say with urgent action, you go and choose that and you kind of, yeah, you know it'll be the right challenge level or on another day just at the wall.

Is there anything you're using or is this just more intuitive because you climbed for so many years? Yeah, interesting question. I think partly it is intuitive kind of that trial and error over the years of you climbing, of knowing what you need to make it the right level. I think it's more about maybe if you want to know how to find the right challenge.

reflecting on the experience you're having, thinking, okay, am I actually quite stressed and anxious right now? That's a pretty good indication that the challenge is too high, or I'm actually feeling pretty bored, I can't really be bothered to pull back on, doesn't seem much point. Okay, maybe the challenge level is too low and I need to change something up to make it more challenging.

Yeah, so maybe just actually understanding that spectrum of experience and then there will always be trial and error within that and probably even day to day. I imagine there has been a day where you, well, I don't know whether it was, but say with urgent action, which clearly was the right challenge level for you, it still wouldn't have necessarily been the same day to day. There may have been days you got on it and it's like, the challenge level actually feels high today. And that's where people, guess, can...

learning about this allows you to, I suppose, have a lot of like, take a lot of responsibility for your experience, like day on day and make choices that are really empowering as well. Yeah. And especially if you kind of get to the crag you're wanting to send or you're wanting to make some big links. And then actually, it's not the right day. You're feeling tired. It's not this bad conditions or whatever.

If you don't then reflect on that challenge level, you could just have these really high expectations and bang yourself, bang your head against the wall and just have a really rubbish session. Whereas if we can think, okay, the challenge level isn't right here, I'm not finding flow. Okay, well, what can I do to make it a more optimal experience for me on that day? Yeah, and that's something I know that in more recent years with my climbing, I have become much more aware of and...

One thing I've really noticed is that I think I used to think when I was having a bad day, firstly, this is just part of it. And secondly, it's just this day. So it kind of doesn't matter if it's bad. But what I realized is actually there's really a memory of that day. And actually if we stack up like more positive experiences, you take a lot of that into your future climbing. You know, we do hold on to maybe bad days on a project or something. Cool.

Well, now that we sort of have this idea of flow state and where it sits on this spectrum of challenge to skill level, it would be cool to dig into some of the mental strategies that we can use to overcome some of the barriers to flow state. So I suppose this is a way of looking at it that flow state is something we can all get into, but actually we can affect.

that environment and I suppose choosing the right challenge level, skill level is one of the things we've just talked about, but are there any other things that you find really play a role with being able to take away some of those barriers and have people access flow more readily, I suppose. One of the ways I really like is this idea of playfulness. And when we're looking at the challenge skill,

balance, the playfulness comes just before flow. So if we can really cultivate a playful environment, that's going to really help us to fall into flow, I guess.

going into your climbing sessions and seeing how having a laugh, that's one way. And then also when you're climbing and like finding beat or being really curious and just seeing what happens and having that kind of beginner's mind where you're like, I'm just gonna have a go. Yeah, I really like that. it's rather than, you some of these states can maybe seem quite abstract when we think about them. Flow state, if you said to someone,

Yeah, go just get yourself into flow state. That can seem quite abstract. Whereas I like the idea of playfulness because I suppose, I mean, I can really imagine what playfulness is. I'm sure people can imagine that. And yes, it might not get you exactly to flow state, but it kind of gets you to the edge and just maybe there and then you can tip over. So, yeah, I mean, and that seems like something that is so actionable and easy for people, people listening. I mean, think about what is playfulness to you and then...

just maybe put that little bit more emphasis on bringing that into your day and see how that impacts your climbing. Yeah, that's cool. So one of the things you talked about is kind of visualizing yourself in flow. And I guess we've touched on this idea of reflecting on previous experiences so that I guess you can take that forward.

what, suppose, how do we reflect on our flow experiences? Is there a certain process that would you reflect, like should climbers reflect on everyday climbing and like flow maybe some, you know, some days of flow experience might be in there or is, should they, when they feel like, that was a flow experience, should they really kind of dive into how that felt, what that day looked like? I think both for sure, so.

I think every climber will be able to reflect on a time where they felt totally in control. They were just absolutely loving the route. There might have been some pressure, but it felt like it was really helping them along. And it's just reflecting back, okay, when did I really have an optimal experience within my climbing? And reflecting on what did that feel like? What were you doing? Did you have a certain mindset towards that day?

And then if you do experience it again, like you said, Maddie, just reflecting on, okay, how did that feel and what would help me cultivate that again? Yeah, one of the things I always think it feels like is like just doing, you know, it's almost hard to put words to some of the experience, but it feels like you just did it. And it's often funny because you are trying hard.

but it kind of really feels like you aren't. And so when you visualize, you're trying to get this, you're trying to bring this visualization of like, you are putting in effort, but it kind of feels effortless, which is quite interesting to try and think about. Okay, one of the things, you've talked about this, and actually I don't, yeah, I'm interested to hear about this, because this is a bit of a new thing for me. You talk about pressure as a privilege.

Can you just explain what you mean by that and how it's something that can be harnessed to reduce barriers to flow? Yeah, so when we can cultivate that flow mindset, so we're really enjoying the process, we've got that really learning attitude towards activities and all of those things around flow, that...

stress that we might start to experience, say we've only got one more attempt on a climb, we're at competition, and all of those different stresses we put on ourselves.

that really activates our brain and puts us in like quite a high energy state. And that's really crucial for us to be able to develop that absorption and that focus needed in flow. So physiologically having stress is going to be really impactful for our flow experience.

So if we can see stress in that way, that's a really exciting place to be because of all of a sudden it's this opportunity to really grow. And part of that is having that really solid mindset where when pressure grows, we don't suddenly come back to expectation and either doing it or not, it's going back to that process and that enjoyment.

Yeah, I really like that. I actually almost quite like the wording. I imagine I might even use it in those scenarios you talked about being like, it's a real privilege to be here. And I actually think, obviously it's all, all linked together, but I think that would probably give me a window into remaining playful in the face of that stress, that good stress that is the pressure that you've got on yourself. Yeah. I really like that. Maybe people can then...

yeah, next time they are in what feels like that pressured situation, they can, guess, firstly, like you said, remind themselves that that stress is good. Like it's useful. I think the word stress, because there is so much chronic stress in a lot of people's lives, could maybe, it has negative connotations and maybe just simply viewing it as part of what you will need and want to get into a flow state, probably.

changes the narrative a little bit anyway, but then kind of actually having some words to put to it to see it as a privilege would be a really nice kind of, I don't know whether you'd call it an internal diagonal, internal conversation people could have with themselves. So one of the things that you have mentioned kind of a few times throughout this conversation is not defaulting or going to that place where you're thinking about the expectations, you're about the pressure and I suppose,

what I hear from climbers a lot, I've definitely thought it myself, is some of that internal dialogue that's like, you're not good enough, or that was really rubbish, all these things that are definitely, I suppose to me, they do feel like internal thoughts that are a barrier to flow. And one thing that we, a phrase that a lot of people I'm sure will have heard is self-compassion. Where does that...

sort of fall into this idea of trying to cultivate flow in our climbing. And I guess to me, it seems like it could be part of that reflection process, but also like in those days as well. Yeah, I really like self-compassion and how this can help flow. if we're referring to self-compassion, we're talking about kind of the self-kindness that...

we would give to a loved one when they're in distress or they're suffering. We give that same level of kindness back to ourselves.

And for me, it's really, I think it's a really important part of that initial mindset because it means that we...

allow ourselves the space and the space and I guess the space and compassion to allow ourselves to have and make mistakes, learn and keep progressing in that way. Whereas if we're not so compassionate, we can make a mistake.

feel like we're the only one that ever makes that mistake, get really annoyed at ourselves and really shut down our brain to think, okay, well, what else can I do? This is okay, it's normal. And it really shuts down that growth mindset, that mastery focus, which is really important initial part of flow. And it also kind of helps in the moment. So if we're on a climb and we make a mistake,

It could be really easy to think, what an idiot, now it's going to ruin the rest of the climb. And all of a sudden your brain is distracted and is like down some hole about how you're not going to be able to do the route anymore. Whereas with self-compassion, we bring this awareness. So, I've noticed I'm just a bit frustrated, but also that kindness to be, it's okay, these things happen. And all of a sudden we're still in that present moment rather than.

down some hole about how stupid we were about slipping off or having our foot slip. Yeah, so maybe actually it's something that I suppose if we just practice it enough, know, I guess these things when you practice them, you just start to do them, you you're not like, not like, yeah, there's necessarily always going to be a step of, it's time to be self compassionate. But it also might help kind of, yeah, I suppose flow state, you know, even once you're in it, it's not necessarily like.

are we definitely gonna be in it for the whole climb? know, this is going to be a state of flux. We're always probably bobbing around a little bit between these slightly different states that we talked about. And yeah, maybe it's something that can help actually bring you back, be like a little bit of a reset. know self-compassion for me, I feel like, I suppose maybe it's the internal dialogue. I don't know, just the way I am with myself. It helps me stay in the moment, because I think when I am not self-compassion,

like, you made this mistake here. You always do stuff like this. I feel just even like my internal language is taking me away from the present moment. Whereas the self-compassion is, yeah, you just made this mistake now these things happen. That's fine. And so I think being self-compassionate, yeah, helps keep me more in the present moment. And I suppose in that way, worrying less about future or outcomes or other things than like literally just what I'm doing. Exactly. Yeah.

And so if someone really struggled with self-compassion, what, know, if they came to work with you or just from what you've learned about coaching, what might that look like to tackle that? Would it be more conversations just around people's motivations? Like, yeah, I don't know, what is the?

Yeah, what is the way you might explore that with someone and how could people actually learn to be more self compassionate?

I definitely depend kind of on the person and their experience, their background and all of that. But a big part of self compassion is bringing awareness and mindful awareness to your experience.

So one way that you could kind of talk through the client and help the client, the person really almost detach from their thoughts. So if a mistake happens or you're feeling really rubbish about something and there's normally that self-critical self-talk, that internal dialogue, it's being able to notice it, see it happen and have that

ability to kind of let it go rather than holding on to it. So there's like kind of lots of different ways to do that. ACT, which stands for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, is I think a really good way of fostering that where you're...

It helps you learn different skills, particularly around acceptance and then this idea of diffusion. So detaching yourselves from your thoughts. So yeah, watching your thoughts in mindfulness. We talk about kind of watching your thoughts go by like clouds. It's that same concept. And then letting them go. Yeah. And mindfulness might be something that a lot of people listening are familiar with and they may have used those strategies and

I definitely have and one thing that sort of I feel like plays into what you've just talked about, but is the way I've experienced it is I think some of those mindfulness strategies, they have just slowed me down. Like I generally find if I just slow down a situation, then it's also maybe just easier to be self compassionate. You know, there's often like, I feel like there's more sort of self critical thoughts are like sort of.

flooding in and maybe the self compassionate thoughts are like trickling and if you can just like stop the flood a little bit or just slow everything down to the rate that kind of the rate of like sort of thought flow that is maybe self compassion then that really I find that really helps they're just even you know if you like take on the rope or you're clipping in or just whatever if I find I literally slow down everything that I do I think that is just

helps the sort of self compassionate side of me just come through more readily anyway. Cool. Well, hopefully there's some things that people feel they can actually just take away and try here. That's what we really like to try and get across in these podcasts. So I feel like we've gone through quite a lot of these like key mental strategies now. Is there anything else that we've not covered that you feel also is really useful when it comes to?

reducing these, overcoming these barriers and being able to reach flow state.

So a part of flow that I think is helpful to think about is that idea of absorption and effortless control where we let go of trying to be in control and you trust yourself and let things happen.

which if we kind of think in a brain way, we have this really conscious thinking brain, which is our analytical, like we were just talking about self-critical thoughts, that's that real thinking mode. But also say if we were climbing, that thinking mode could be kind of, okay, I'm going to put my arm here and then I'm going to move my leg up and it's all kind of consciously thought about.

Whereas in flow, we are much more in our being mode. So allowing things to unconsciously happen and just letting it be. Another way this is sometimes talked about is implicit and explicit control. And it's basically that analytical brain and flow will kind of almost shut down. Like the activity is really reduced.

And that enables that unconscious being to happen and that letting go and that effortlessness kind of naturally comes. So in terms of how can we get that sense, like a simple exercise that I learned within the course is kind of related to hypnotherapy.

where you allow your periphery to kind of take the full focus and this helps to shut down that really analytical thinking brain. So to explain what that is, you could be at the crag and you could be looking at a hold and you're looking at the hold with your focus and then keeping your focus on that point.

you allow your attention to come into the periphery, kind of seeing, trying to see 360 around you while maintaining that focus on that one point.

And if you're doing this, really just trying to bring up a thought while really maintaining that periphery. And you'll probably find it's actually quite difficult to do so. And that's that thinking brain deactivating when we're allowing our periphery to happen.

So that's something like an exercise that you could do just before you pull on or on, say, if you're resting on a route, allowing yourself to focus on the hold and then bring your periphery out. Or if you're bouldering, you'd most likely to do it before you pull on. And that's encouraging that effortless control and that being mode that allows us to climb really smoothly.

Yeah, I really like that. And I have tried this and I would encourage people to try it in practice. Because like you said, it is, it definitely like takes some practice to focus on a point and then pull out your vision into, like you said, it's almost like diffusing your vision into like a relaxed gaze. It's like taking in way more that is around you. And yeah, I encourage people to try it next time in the crowd because it's interesting or I found it interesting because.

if people have done mindfulness, there is an element of mindfulness that is like a relaxed gaze and sort of like really pulling that out. And this is kind of just bringing a different perspective on that. And I guess using it in a much more focused scenario. But what I really like about all these things that you've spoken about is that there's flow state. You've talked about what that is. There's these conditions, I guess, for flow.

and we can understand them intellectually, but we can also actually try and set the scene. And I feel like you've spoken to quite a lot of quite actionable things that people can do that's, yeah, that I think is something that is really nice about this type of coaching that you're doing. So I suppose to kind of round up this conversation, you have been working towards being this

performance coach like focused on flow state. And this is different to some of the other coaching that we offer here at Lattice. So if someone was coming to you, I mean, you've worked with a number of people in this capacity already, but if someone was coming to you and they were interested in exploring coaching for flow, and I guess it's more kind of mindset performance side of coaching, can you just talk through a little bit?

what they would expect. Like what is the way that you have been learning and practicing from your course to work with climbers?

Yes, so through the course, I've been learning skills to allow the climber, the client to explore their own experience. My aim is to give you the space to explore that, the safety and trust so that you feel like you can dig into that. And then also in terms of where flow comes in, I coach with this kind of

framework of flow really guiding how I'm coaching with the idea that I really want to help you get your optimal experience, that I want you to find what you want out of your climbing. And that doesn't always mean directly talking about flow and exactly how you might find a flow experience where...

we could, it also, it's kind of talking around it and digging into those motivations or understanding those expectations and different barriers that you might find that you have that stops you having that enjoyment, that real internal drive and the experience that you want to. Yeah, there's a real, there's an approach that.

that I've seen from you in just some of the kind of like internal kind of coaching sessions that we have here at Lattice where you're not telling people what to do. There's a real sort of side of it where like they are coming to the conclusions themselves, but with like with the guidance from you. And I think that that is a really empowering experience in itself as well as obviously like sort of carrying through to.

to people's climbing performance experience. And I think experience is actually like the big word here is that you are, yeah, you are supporting people in their experience of climbing, not necessarily in some certain outcome. Exactly. And yeah, like you say, my aim is to ask questions and bring awareness to the client to enable them to come up with their...

with their own answers, which like you said, is a much more empowering positioning to be in. Yeah, and I mean, from being on the receiving end, it's really interesting to feel, to go through that process of being asked a question and then just left space to answer it. And I think you actually realize that even though, I feel like I have a lot of great relationships, trusted climbing partners.

It is very different to that and I have found it really eye-opening. Wonderful. Well, this has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it and I hope it's been interesting for people listening. Is there anything you feel like you would just want to round up with? Could be anything, something we've not touched upon, maybe something that just you think really particularly resonates for you within the conversation or just, I don't know, yeah, any personal learnings.

I'd say for me is like that reminder of playfulness. think that's. A really fun part of climbing, and I think it's just a really good way to access that optimal experience and being able to drop into flow. Yeah, and I really like that. I suppose when you do that exercise, I guess, when you think about what you value in climbing playfulness, it stands out for me, but I see it from a lot of climbers and I think there's that.

It's like a playground, isn't it? Sometimes some of our kind of climbing landscapes or the gym, just wherever people climb, I think it's quite easy to see that as a bit of a playground. Lovely. Alrighty, that's it from us. Thanks, Maddie.