¶ Exploring the Enneagram and Personal Growth
Welcome to Know your Flow podcast , where women in flow share what they know . I'm your host , lauren Barton . Join me as we talk to women and hear their stories on what they know , how they've grown and how they're living in flow . Alright , today we have a very special guest with us . We have Kara , my sister . Hi , kara , hi .
So today we're going to talk all about the Enneagram Enneagram being E-N-N-E-A-G-R-A-M , so Enneagram because we were pretty obsessed with it and we're not experts , but we kind of know a lot about it .
We were definitely obsessed around what time do you think that was like 2019? .
Yeah , I'd say like 2019 . We were really very obsessed .
We could not talk to anyone without talking to them about it . We wanted them to learn about themselves . We were also low key , trying to figure out what number they were Right , which you're not supposed to do no no , no , don't . It's not a weapon , no , it's a tool . But we were learning and we didn't know , and now we know better , so we do better .
Yep , know better , do better . But I don't know if you explain this in your intro , but Enneagram means number , gram means picture . So Enneagram and it's going to look like a figure , it's like a circle with nine numbers , because Ennea means technically nine . Oh no , nine , yes , sorry , yes , nine , nine and Gram , actually , I think , means figure , not picture .
A figure . Of nine is what it is .
It , picture a circle with nine numbers or Google it , but I don't think there are many of your listeners that haven't heard of the Enneagram .
You'd be surprised . I think more people haven't heard about it than you think .
But why would someone want to know about it ?
Because it will really help you . For sure . It'll definitely change the way that you see things and the way that you see the world and the way that you see other people . I remember how we got into it , and so I was . We were talking about this the other day .
It was like 2019 , I was still teaching for Davines and I was coming back from Roanoke and I was listening to this podcast . It was like Jamie Ivy's podcast with Suzanne Stabiel , and I pictured Suzanne Stabiel looking way more hippie-ish than she was .
I was like , oh yeah , because it was kind of woo-woo and they call her the Enneagram godmother and she kind of , yeah , she looks like the cutest grandma and if that would be your starting point would be , anybody who doesn't know of her should Google her Totally .
And so I was listening to that . And then I called you and was like dude , I just listened to the Enneagram , but you and I were talking about this the other day . It was so funny because we both got really into it . But a lot of times I'll call you and tell you woo-woo stuff and you don't get into it . You'll listen .
But you're like , I don't care , I'll listen and I'm like that's really good for you and that's neat that you're learning something new . Yeah , exactly , but anyway , yeah , I'm gonna go about my life now , but this we both got really into .
Why do you think that you picked up on this one as opposed to like other things , like astrology or I don't know whatever .
Well , and I told you this the other day , I think the reason that I got into it was , well , two reasons . Number one , I was seeing a lot of it during a time when I followed a lot of female Christian influencers and it felt safe because they were endorsing it .
Not that it's not safe , I don't want to say it's a personality test but it's kind of like learning your personality , learning why you do the things that you do . So it felt safe , it felt like something that would be okay for me to get into .
That wasn't like New Agey or stuff like that .
It wasn't New Agey right Like , but I think I was starting to exhaust all my other tools that I had been using to get through life and cope , and I was and it was right before turning 40 , which is a time when I think a lot of people do some soul searching , maybe reexamining where you are .
So that was really helpful because it gave language to what I already knew about myself , but I didn't have the language for it .
It felt like , yeah , we already know this . It didn't feel like , oh wow , this is hard to comprehend because , whatever it felt like , oh , this is all the pieces that we already know . It felt very familiar .
Yeah , you do know these things about yourself , but maybe you haven't named them and you've never done any work around them . You think , oh , that's just how I am , yeah , and that is how you are , and there's nothing wrong with that sometimes . But sometimes it's not balanced and sometimes you do need to do some work around it .
Also , knowing that we're all it sounds kind of like duh , but we're all very different and we're all different in our motivations , and that's what the Enneagram teaches it's not just the way you act or behave , it's what motivates you .
So that was really helpful in a time when I had been very much trying to be a certain way , that I don't think I was capable of being A certain mold With a Christian background . With a Christian background and I just didn't have that in my makeup . Yeah , to be the helper . Yeah , the helper would be .
If you don't know , that's the number two on the Enneagram . The helper is like a model of what a good Christian woman would be , and it's . I mean , it's wonderful .
But when you're trying to pull that up in yourself and it's not there , you end up or I did always feeling like less than , and maybe it's because I wasn't crish enough , I wasn't reading my Bible enough , I wasn't praying enough .
But it really was that I saw the world differently and I was motivated differently than other people and that once you realize that is a gift , Because then you can be the best version of yourself , of your own self and in your own , and be more in alignment , which is better for others , which is Christian . It was very freeing to have the words to express .
You know , maybe I'm not crazy , I am just more emotional than other people . I do feel all the things all day , and also I yeah , that's me and that's who I am , but I also don't have to stay that way .
Yeah , really good Cause , as Suzanne Stabil says and that's I mean any information that we have , that we're sharing is straight from pretty much Suzanne Stabil , which is who we learned from we went to two different like conferences with her . We literally bingeed her entire podcast .
Yeah , I went back to try to like listen , review some things and I I noticed I had listened to every podcast , I think ever . They all said that I , you know at all , I viewed or listened to all of them , so we were very immersed in it .
Yes , and what she says is you know , the best part of you is also the worst part of you .
And so we learned about it . We took some tests but , you know , after listening to Suzanne , we learned that that was not the best way to determine your number . It was to learn about each number and if you were still having trouble after that , I think that the tip was to try to identify with your stance , which could be withdrawing , aggressive or dependent .
Identify with that , yeah , your motivation .
You know , all of this too really depends on your level of self-awareness , and you know there's healthy and there's unhealthy , Each number . You know you could have two people that are the same number , but one could be healthy and one could be unhealthy , and they present differently .
Their actions are going to be very different .
Yeah , motivation is the same , but you know we all have stages where you're healthier , unhealthy , and figuring that all out too . So what did ?
it do for you learning about the Enneagram . How did it help you in the beginning ?
Yeah , I mean I think like exactly what you said . I mean it just gave language to what I already knew . But being able to be like I think it gives a lot of grace to be like oh yeah , this is how I am and there's no reason to fight it , because it just sort of is , and . But yet there are things that I never knew that I wasn't doing .
Like I don't think that I was really aware that I wasn't feeling my feelings .
Like maybe I was like proud , like cause I was like , oh , I don't really cry a lot or like , oh , I don't really , I'm not , I don't really get that upset , but if I would have never known in my life through the Enneagram that I wasn't feeling my feelings , then I would be a pretty wild person , like avoiding and just always looking for the next thing and
reframing things and not knowing how to like navigate that I don't feel my feelings .
But isn't it funny too that if you were to look at , like talking about emotions , that you didn't really show a lot of emotions , I showed all the emotions that I don't know if it's society or what , but it's almost like it's
¶ Understanding Enneagram Types and Personal Motivations
. We perceive you as being better off , you know , as you have the advantage Correct Totally , because you seem more stable than somebody who's super emotional doing all the things , but that doesn't . It's not true . One is not better than the other . They can both be very unhealthy .
And then , yeah , like I mean , you pretty much said like for you , it just helped you with like the whole thing of like figuring out like oh , I'm trying to fit in a box that isn't my box .
Yeah , exactly , and when you let go of that , your life will change , period and just will . And it doesn't matter what tools you use to get there , and that's for anybody . But this , I don't know system I don't know if that's the right word for it , but it it definitely changed my life and it's been around . And also , Suzanne Stabille did not .
This isn't like something that she came up with . This has been around . This is like kind of ancient right yeah .
And it was .
It's like a lineage , yeah , and it's been learned from Richard Rohr but it's been around Much , much longer and it was passed down , I think , orally . I don't think there were like books or literature . But this isn't like , it's not , it's not new , it didn't just come out , yeah .
I don't have the . We don't have the whole history here .
I'm sure you can Google it kind of like that you will . I will see people , when I'm talking to them about it , have like like an Oprah Aha moment , like when I was reading about one of them and figuring out my husband . It was like whoa , like this is him on every level and he even acknowledges that too .
Which gives people permission to be who they are , and it allows you to have more grace , not only with yourself , oh , with other people , because you're like oh , they're this number , so they can't help the way that they see the world in this way .
Yeah and that we all have different motivations .
I'm gonna read the nine numbers and a little bit about each one . So this comes directly from the road back to you , which is Suzanne's to Beals book , with Keras favorite , which is a Ian Crone here he's funny , all right . So yeah , we have type one , which is the perfectionist . So ethical , dedicated and reliable .
They're motivated by a desire to live the right way , improve the world and avoid fault and blame . They really want to get things done . They really want to be good .
Do you know anyone's offhand that you are close to ? Yeah , our father .
Father is the one and yeah , he is all about the right way . Yes , justice , black and white thinking black and white . It has to be this way . Why would somebody do it that way ? That's a big one , but you know they have a Huge inner critic .
So if you are listening to this and you're a person who has an inner critic not everyone has one- yeah , and I don't think it's .
it's not the same as your , as everyone's inner monologue Sure right .
It's like a , like a little thing telling you all the time you saw kind of right . I think I don't have one , but from what I've heard , kind of .
I think that's . I mean if you think of what a critic in your brain would be , and that's one of the identifiers if you're questioning , I think , between you know , I don't know if I'm a one or a six , or a one and a three . If you feel that you have that , that's it .
You're a one and we can't describe it because we don't have one exactly , but if you have one , you know , if you know , you know . Type two is the helper . So warm , caring giving . They're motivated by a need to be loved and needed and to avoid Acknowledging their own needs .
We have twos in our life . Are they good friends ? They're great . They're great friends , aren't they ?
They're the best friends both of our . They will feed you will feed you , they will listen , they will come , do anything you want and they want to do things with you .
Oh my god , they're so relational so relational like they are the people that when you are out somewhere , they're meeting new friends , they're talking to people , they want to be social like they live on Relationships .
I would recommend having a two for a friend , like a hundred percent . Yeah , they're really great , yeah , so yeah and it too .
One man is like , like we were talking about , like the , the ultimate Mothering .
Yeah , great mothers . To male friend oh To yeah , and he's a two male two male that I don't really know a very many of those , but he will seek out your needs , he will meet your needs . What else ? As a male too ?
Very helpful , very fun , very love loving a really good friend warm .
Yes , and they . I don't know if it's all twos , but the ones that I know of think about food a lot .
I think it's a way to connect .
Yeah , yeah , because food is relational and I think you know where are we going to eat and when can we gather next , when are we getting together again ? We just did . I don't care if it's the next day , yeah , but I want to see . Yeah , we just left , let's get on the phone now . Yeah , exactly .
Yes , I like twos . Type three is the Performer . So success oriented , image conscious and wired for productivity . They are motivated by a need or appear to be successful and avoid failure . So I don't know whatever I think of threes .
Honestly , I think of and I don't know if this is everyone , but I think of , like yoga girl , like Rachel Brathen and women on Cuz .
I mean , I follow mostly women , but people who are always showing up on Instagram , always being like Presenting in a way that looks good and consistent , and like I feel like they would be really good like consistent managers , consistent yeah , there's consistent right .
Yeah , and I don't have any threes in my life that I'm close to very Success-oriented image , conscious , always looks great , always has it together , is always like doing the things the best way possible . So next we have type four , which is the romantic .
So creative , sensitive and moody , they are motivated by a need to be understood , experience their oversized feelings and avoid being ordinary . As a four carries a four , so how can you speak into how it feels to be a four ?
I thought that was a great description . Definitely a lot of big feelings . I don't think it mentioned being melancholy , which is something that's kind of a funny thing . It's not .
It's not depression being okay with being sad and kind of yeah , like liking it , like being like I'm moody , I'm yeah .
I've got a lot of moods I'm , so it's kind of dumb , but it's like , yeah , that Wanting to be different , it's very complicated , very complex
¶ Enneagram Types and Their Motivations
.
Wanting to be different but also wanting everyone , but always feeling like you're on the outside and not liking being different , but wanting to be different , choosing it , choosing to look different than everyone else , but then walking into a room and feeling upset because people view you as different , which I've had to do a lot of work around , because it's a very
strange thing and that's something that the Enneagram has helped me with , because that was always brewing but I had no way of knowing like naming it yeah . I just knew it was kind of under the surface and that's yeah .
Yeah , but that's kind of what it's like to be a four and everybody would just be like , oh , you're just so emotional , like why can't you be unemotional ?
or like Because things shift a lot in one in 24 hours things can shift .
So much for me because you're feeling the feeling so deeply . It's not like , oh , I kind of have a tinge of annoyance . It's like I'm annoyed now .
No , it's , I'm annoyed or I'm angry and then acting on it , and then I'm crying or I'm really really happy and look at the trees outside . It's just so beautiful . Look at this . Yeah , you know it's , but it's . It's kind of exhausting , and you do . I have had to really work on Trying to be more stable .
You're all feeling but no thinking and no doing .
Or I will do because of what I felt , and now I try to do because it's logical , it's the right thing .
You know , I'm gonna have more energy at the end of the day if I go ahead and do the hard , difficult things , the tasks that have to be done , rather than waiting until I feel like it , because that feeling might not come and I'm still going to be tired and things aren't going to be done . So that was a little bit of that .
So next we have type 5 , which is the investigator . So analytical , detached and private . They are motivated by a need to gain knowledge , conserve energy and avoid relying on others . Yeah , so my best friend , hannah , she's a 5 . My other friend , gina , she's a 5 too . They Really are conserving energy at .
Conserving energy is really interesting because just a couple weeks ago I asked Hannah about some idea . I had to like launch something , and I was like , what do you think of this ? And she was like , um , well , aren't you gonna be really tired ? Because didn't you ? Aren't you like doing this before ?
And she's like , well , I'm not really like the best person to ask , cuz I'm always trying to like not put more , like the most effort , and it comes out a lot for her and Like you know private meaning , like like we're best friends , but we're not .
But she doesn't tell me every single moment of her Like life experience or thoughts or feelings you know , and it's not personal , no , it's nothing to do with me and you know that now , maybe , if you didn't have this knowledge , you would be like I don't know why she doesn't share with me .
We're supposed to be close , but because you know her motivation , you understand her better , which means you all have a better relationship which is why the Enneagram is helpful .
And yeah , and they like to be . I mean , I think that she , her job really allows her to come . I'm not speaking for her , but I think she would agree .
I think that her job really allows her to come out of her shell , because I think the idea of fives is like a bookworm Hanging in their room , researching , learning , introverted , and I think that that's she has that too but so I don't know any fives that well .
I mean , I know fives , but I can't speak to it like you can , working and being friends with one .
So then we have a type 6 , which is the loyalist . So they are committed , practical and witty . Oh yes , they are worst case scenario thinkers who , who are motivated by fear and the need for security . Yeah , so our mom is a six , our friend Tina is a six . Very practical , love their families .
Practical women . They don't like a lot of whimsy or romanticizing things . That's not their thing . They're loyal . They're not going anywhere .
Heck . No , they are . That is so true . They really are so loyal and Apparently . I mean I heard once I don't know if you're this to that six of the most popular numbers in the world , if they had to say and then fours are the least , yeah .
So if you think about , you know worst case scenario thinkers , or you know fear and anxiety and things like that , you know for a Lot of humans on this earth . You know there could be a lot of sixes , but very loyal , loving people . We need them .
Ooh , we're getting to the fun one now .
Yeah , type seven , the enthusiasts . So fun , spontaneous and adventurous . They are motivated by a need to be happy , to plan stimulating experiences and to avoid pain . So yeah , that's me . I'm a seven .
What line that you just read really grabs you about yourself , I think , like plants , I think plans stimulating experiences and and avoid pain too , because I mean that's the motivation is like . If that's the uncomfortable , I'm good . I don't want to do that .
I don't want to do that . I'm good on that , or ?
Or , you know , feeling your feelings laying around , feeling sad , like for most of my life . I'm like no , I'm good . And even now , like with the enneagram knowledge , I feel like I can say , okay , this is a sad thing and I feel sad , but do I really feel so ? Do I take the time to do that , or right ?
Or do I put things on my plate and to do lists and Plan fun trips and try to just like be happy and sevens are fun , really fun , like you're a blast . Yeah , unless .
I'm not , Unless you're not . The other funny thing about sevens is when a seven is ready to leave , you are having a family gathering and a seven is done , they're done . And I know other people who , when they are , you may not even get a real goodbye . You're out out the door and people are looking around saying what did she ? Oh wow , she's gone .
She always does that . Yeah , this is funny , and you're probably thinking about the next thing .
Yeah , I'm like all right . Well , I've gotten as much fun out of this as I can get and it's time to go home and do something else more fun . It's all about fun , which is a good thing , but there's also this thing too , of like when you can't . There's a big reframing part to a seven too .
Of like if you can't , I can reframe or could reframe anything into a positive . And when you get to the point where you can't reframe things into a more positive thing , then that's when , like , shit kind of hits the fan .
You know , cause you're like yeah , what are you gonna do now ? Because this really does suck and it really is probably worst case scenario and there's no way to make it better .
Yeah , so next we have the eight , so type eight , the challenger . So they're commanding . Commanding intense and confrontational . They are motivated by a need to be strong and to avoid feeling weak and vulnerable .
So I've read too that they're motivated by I don't know if this but control .
They like control .
They like control and I have two eights in my life that would tell you that immediately . Like my daughter would say , I'm motivated by control , clearly , and when things are out of control , and they know it , they don't have a say . That's when things get bad , that's when it hits the fan .
But I'll tell you what if you are in a parking lot and you're not sure where to go to get to a venue or in another city , you need an eight .
Yeah , totally . They always have the plan , they know where to go , they know what's happening , they are ready to lead .
Yes , and when they're in a good place , it's not a bad thing . It's a good thing because they're very helpful and they want that , and when they get to do that , they're thriving .
Yeah , totally . But they're not gonna come to you and talk about how they're feeling , unless it's anger or annoyance or kind of something that's driving them crazy , but like sad would not be a word very often used yeah , for sure .
And I think that women eight get a really bad rap , kind of how women twos get a really good rap , because it's like oh , yeah , they're helping . But type eight women are like oh , she's super bitchy because she's not gonna listen to your feelings or put up with your stuff . She's gonna tell you how to do it and when to do it , and it's a good thing .
It is a good thing , because they actually do want what's best for others too , deep down . It may come across as abrasive , but I love women eights . I think they're fascinating and I think that's really unfair .
So then , we have type nine , which is the peacemaker . So they're pleasant , laid back and accommodating . They are motivated by a need to keep the peace , merge with others and avoid conflict . Big peacemakers your daughter is a nine .
I like the word accommodating . They are very accommodating , that is , you know , if you ask her to do something , that will be helpful she'll do it .
But the difference too . I mean this is kind of going off track with like a nine and a two , because both sound lovely , both are pleasant , both are laid back , both want what's best for you and everybody else . But the motivation is different , because and that's why motivation is so important because a nine is doing it because they don't want conflict .
Two is doing it because they want you to love them , and that's the difference .
Yes , and that's why you could be confused . I don't know , am I a two or am I a nine ? And so you check out the motivations , you check out even you know the stances are different . We haven't talked about this yet but orientation to time , how you think about past , present or future , and those things would help you .
And I think people get confused whether or not they're sixes or twos .
Yeah , I think so .
There are definitely numbers that are close in behavior but very , very different in motivation .
Oh , I was just gonna say that's why Suzanne Stubbiel's podcast , I think , was so awesome , because her podcast episodes were all people talking about their experiences as each number because you can hear all this and be like I feel a little bit of all of that , but to hear people really talk about their experience , it feels really relatable to hear and be like ,
oh my God , like I have always felt like that .
Yeah , there was one I think it was Ian Cron talking about maybe going into the basement and it being dark and wanting to go down there and listen to sad music , and that to me was like whoa , whoa , whoa .
I've been doing that my whole life , not going into a dark basement , but like I remember as a teenager , like driving around playing a sad song over and over again just to cry , and then going home and moving on with my life . I wouldn't have told anyone that , I wouldn't have been like , oh , I do that , and then I feel better .
But that's what was happening . And so when I heard his story , I was like , oh yeah , I do that pretty regularly . Did you ever hear anything front like that from someone ? I remember the podcast one time with the comedian Melissa Radke and you related to .
I don't remember specifically , but there was so much of what she said that we were both like , oh , you do that ?
Annie Downs , she was a seven and she talked a lot about her stuff at the time , which was good , okay
¶ Introduction to Enneagram and Deadly Sins
. So deadly sins , let me pull them up . So deadly sin is basically do you ? Okay , I got them too , if you want either way , I have them right here .
So for a one , their deadly sin would be resentment Number two , or , let's see , yeah , two . Or the helper , their deadly sin is pride . Three's deadly sin is deceit . Four's deadly sin is envy , five's is greed , six fear , seven gluttony , eight lust and nine sloth .
And like the sloth , as I'm reading here in this book is like nines fall asleep to their own priorities personal development and responsibility for becoming their own person , which it's just like .
Whatever you guys want whatever you guys want and they kind of get lost . It's easy for them to merge , which is viewed as a good thing . I mean , you're in a group because you're gonna go along with everything , but at some point you've lost an idea of what you want . You don't even know how does your deadly sin of gluttony appear in your life .
Like I'm not gonna play on one , trip .
I'm gonna play on five .
I'm not gonna like , I'm not gonna have one hobby , I'm gonna have five , I'm gonna have a bunch .
Like I'm not just gonna do one thing , I'm not gonna buy one bathing suit for vacation .
I'm gonna buy . Yeah , because that's just one that I've seen before . Yeah , it's true . So you think that it comes in clusters of like right now .
I think that your gluttony might be presenting in activity , not travel right now , things that I'm learning , but also travel , because I mean , like I had the trip to Sedona and then I was like , oh , but we could also go to renewal . Yeah , that's true .
Yeah , that one's . I think the travel one's always there for you .
But then I was reading my yeah , but then I was reading my thing too and it said like in this book , and it was talking about how , you know , we start things and don't finish them , which I think is pretty true Like I'll start things and be like man . This isn't really satisfying me anymore . I'm moving on .
So I was listening to something today that was talking about fours . Do that too , but Suzanne was specifically saying that it's worse for fours . We have to work on completing things because you stop things , because it's not fun anymore , which is fine , but we quit because we doubt ourselves and we keep ourselves from reaching our potential .
So I thought that was interesting because I have quit a lot of things . So , along with deadliest sins , there are a couple of other things that are important to know about each number Triads .
Triads yes , there's triads . There's , you know , stress and security . There's like all these different things .
And so the in-eagram is a lot and like we learned about it in 2019 and we still have things that we can implement , but some of our , some of our favorite things , I think , is when we learned about center of intelligence and orientation to time , like those were .
Those are really big and we can explain this a little bit , but again , this is like I mean kind of a lot , and if you've never heard about the in-eagram before , you know it could be whatever . But basically , the thought is that we have , you know , different centers of intelligence so thinking , feeling and doing , and you know there's nine numbers .
So those nine numbers can be broken up into groups of threes , which they are , and so some people have a . Some numbers are , you know , thinking dominant , others are feeling dominant and others are doing dominant , which comes up ?
If you have a dominant one , then you're going to have one that is repressed .
So ones are doing dominant , and then they use feelings to support their doing , but their thinking is repressed .
So , you know , if you're a person who's a perfectionist and you , there's also childhood messages as well , and so for a one , your childhood message is it's not okay to make mistakes , then you're probably , you know , thinking dominant as well , and then twos are going to be feeling dominant .
So you take in in your center of intelligence is how you take in information . So when somebody presents something to you , are you saying this is how I think about this , what am I going to do about this ? Or how do I feel about this ? And so , or ?
another way I've heard it described is was that's good is , when you walk into a room , what do you first ? Do you think first ? Do you feel first ? Do you do something first ?
And if you're paying attention and you know yourself fairly well , I think it's pretty easy to know Cause , like as a four , I feel very feel the room and you can even catch yourself , like in what you say , cause I always say I think , do you say I feel like , or I think I say both .
So then , what supports the feeling in a two , which is the helper is doing , and so they're thinking repressed , so they're feeling and they're doing feeling and they're doing , feeling and they're doing they're feeling for other people a lot , so it's going to look like in a two a pretty obvious one would be like I , I feel so bad for them , I have to do
something .
Yeah , I have to go be there for them or do something for them .
I just feel so bad for them , I'm going to bring them something . Yeah , but the problem with twos is that sometimes people didn't ask .
Oh true , yeah , People didn't ask . Or you're doing . You're doing things that , as Suzanne will say , aren't yours to do .
And their childhood message is in . Childhood messages , basically just like this kind of subconscious message that lives within you , is kind of how I would describe it . How would you describe it ? Or maybe what you felt like was told to you when you were younger , what you interpreted as being told to you , as you and your anger .
Yeah , I think both . I think it's subconscious . I think you don't even realize it's there .
Yeah , totally
¶ Enneagram Types and Childhood Messages
so . Theirs is . It's not okay to have your own needs as a two . So that would be . You know how they look at everybody else's needs , and then the what you would replace that with is that you are wanted and loved just for being you .
And not what you do for everybody else .
And then threes are feeling dominant , so they take in information with how they feel . This one's kind of funky , though , because they're also feeling repressed , so they take things in like oh , I feel bad for them . But then they also kind of ignore their feelings in order to think and do something else . It's kind of how I would describe it .
Yeah , I think that's a great way of describing it Like oh , I feel so bad for them , but yet I'm going to disregard my feelings so that I can look good and be a performer and think and do .
And also do something , yeah , and so it does look a little bit like a two sometimes .
And so their childhood message is it's not okay to have your own feelings and identity , and just interesting . And then they replace that with you are loved and valued for being you .
That's it .
That's a tricky one , it's not for me to understand it's not okay to have your own feelings and identity . Yeah , I'd love to talk to a three on how that shows up .
I would too that that it's very interesting .
And then a four is they take in things with feeling , as we talked about , and their support center is thinking and their repressed is doing , so they can just be laying around feeling and thinking , and feeling and thinking and feeling and thinking and not doing anything .
Yeah , that happens sometimes .
And .
I would use the word wallow .
Waller , waller , waller and that one .
Yeah , if you're not careful , you're going to end up waller in and nothing's going to get done . Yeah , or you go and do something , but it's not actually what you should be doing . That would be productive .
And theirs is their childhood messages it's not okay to be too much or not enough , which is kind of crazy , because that's kind of what you were saying about , like walking into somewhere and being unique but then wanting to be accepted , yes , and they would replace that message with you are seen and loved for who you are .
And then we have fives , which they're thinking dominant . So they're thinking , researching , doing all those things and then feeling is their support with that , but they're not doing anything necessarily . Is there repressed ? And their childhood messages it's not okay to be comfortable in the world . Yeah , and they would . That would be replaced with .
Your needs are not a problem .
That's interesting . Yeah , and maybe smaller yeah .
Or like , or like the hoarding thing . So they're always trying to like , hoard their resources because they're afraid of maybe being uncomfortable or we're living that . Or yeah , because I can't , I don't know doesn't resonate with me Again .
this is why Suzanne had people on that were and just because you know this about someone , you really don't fully understand the way they see things . You just know that it's different and you have a little glimpse , but it's not . You know the full picture .
And then a six is thinking dominant , and then their support system is doing and feeling because they're also thinking repressed . So for a six , I think that it would look like they're thinking all the time about the worst case scenario , but it's not the correct , like it's not really what they should be thinking about .
They're not clearly thinking because those things sometimes don't even happen . The worst case probably rarely shows up , so you've kind of wasted your thoughts on this thing . That hasn't happened yet , so it isn't productive .
Their childhood message is it's not okay to trust yourself , and they would replace that with you are safe and secure .
I think that something I heard recently was that they know the answer , but they need to hear it from someone outside themselves , because they don't trust themselves to know that that's what it is . Yeah , it's in them , but they need to hear it from someone else . They almost need to be validated to then move forward . Yeah .
And then you also think of like well , this is just a side tangent too , Like you think about if that's the most popular number in like the world and there's a lot of like women's sixes that can't trust themselves to make decisions .
Because they've been told they can't trust themselves , right ?
And then they also have that within them as well , like that's gotta be hard , really hard , and they do step into that , especially if you're , you know , if you have a lot of fear and all that which they yeah , which is our dead listen .
And then so sevens , their preferred dominant center , so their main , is thinking , and then their support center is doing and then , repressed , is feeling .
Yeah .
And you talked about that already I'm thinking , I'm doing , I'm thinking and then I do it . But feelings you can ignore . But and that's kind of funny , because that's with everybody too Like , even if thinking and doing is your repressed center , you can't do what you want to do or think what you want to think , or feel like whatever .
If you don't have that like , if you're just like , if you're just feeling and doing all the time , you're going to keep hitting a roadblock with any of these . If you're thinking , if you're um , what's the other one ?
like , well , if you're , if you're thinking and feeling , and thinking and feeling . Okay , nothing's going to get done .
Exactly so . We have to access these repressed centers to be able to yeah because it's out of balance .
All three need to be working at the same level , which is why it's important to know about these things , that's , it's not just the description of why you do things and oh , I read this and this is what I am . Okay , now , how is this going to help you be the best version of yourself ?
The seven's childhood message is it's not okay to depend on others , for anything which needs to be replaced with you will be taken care of . And then eights , they are doing dominant thinking is their support center and they are feeling repressed as well , and so their childhood message is it's not okay to be vulnerable or to trust anyone .
And then they're they need to replace that with you will not be betrayed .
Yeah , because eights do have some stuff around trust . I heard Suzanne say once what that that an eight can name five people they trust . Maybe I think it was less than five and I think that's true . Trust is a big issue .
And then nines are doing um , dominant , and then they are also doing repressed , so meaning they see that something needs to be done , but they don't think that it's theirs to do is kind of the best way that I've heard it described .
And so then they use thinking and feeling to support their doing , and their childhood message is it's not okay to assert yourself , which needs to be replaced with your presence matters .
Yeah , and I've heard it also described as they're doing things all the time , but it's not what needs to be done . That's very true . There's a lot of movement , it doesn't mean that they're lying on the couch not doing anything . I mean the nines I know are very busy . There are some things , though , that may be more important than aren't being done .
I think it's hard for them to stay on task of that too , you know , and I can relate to that too as being doing repressed , but I would , yes .
Right , and it's also been really good also to know that . Oh , okay , that's the language for that . Um , because I really always struggle with thinking I was lazy but really you're just doing repressed .
So fours , fives and nines are all doing repressed , and then sevens , eights and threes are all feeling repressed . And then ones , twos and sixes are all thinking repressed . And there's also this whole thing , too , with orientation to time , which is fascinating , and we can give examples of how that shows up .
But threes , sevens and eights are all future orientated , to time or future oriented , so they're always thinking about the future .
Yeah , it's not that they never think of the past , but it's if you were to . And the way that I approached my husband is I was like so do you think more of the future , the past or the present ? And his knee jerk response was future and I knew it just immediately that mine was the past and how that presents itself in a relationship .
I don't know if you yeah , so nines , fours and fives are past oriented . Did you already say that ?
Yeah , so the first one is oriented is three , sevens and eights , four , fives and nines are past , and then one , twos and sixes are present . So there's that whole bit , but , yeah , how it can show up in a relationship . So you know , if you're in a relationship , so you , kara , are past oriented time and then Josh is thinking future . So then how can that ?
I mean , I can , obviously . Yeah , well , it comes up too in your relationship . Yeah , because I'm future . We're opposite , cause Karen and I really are kind of yin and yang , really , like I'm trying to have a good time , she's trying to be sad .
I'm trying to not feel . She's trying to feel .
I'm thinking of the future , she think of the past .
Yeah , it is , and she's in the aggressive stance , I'm in the withdrawn , which is a funny thing too . Not , this isn't related to orientation at time , but if the four of us go to somewhere like a concert , I think this is a really good example .
It is so me , kara Billy Josh at a concert and it's very crowded and there's nowhere to stand and Josh , being in the aggressive stance , being an eight , is not letting people through . He's just not . I mean , he even like told , like said something to a lady about the yeah , hi , sorry , no , you're not getting through . She was budding and I wanted to die .
I was so embarrassed , I was like God he is being so rude to these people . How would I ? I mean , I wouldn't want to be talked to you that way blah , blah , blah . That's going on in my head . At the same time , lauren and Billy are there .
Lauren's in the aggressive stance , billy's in the withdrawn stance , like me , he is letting a person beside him take over completely , take over his personal space , like completely . This person had his arm around him .
Billy didn't want it and Lauren has like smoke coming out of her ears , so mad that this is going on , that this , this other person is taking over Billy's space and she is taking this same attitude as Josh of like , sorry , don't care , this is where , like , we're here , get out of here , okay .
Because this is our space . This is what we're doing , yeah , and .
I think both Billy and I were just like oh , let's just be polite , okay , we don't want any trouble , exactly Whatever . And then these other two people are going ballistic . Yeah , yeah , that'd be your interpretation of what was going on .
I think that's really good and I think yeah , cause I think that Josh and I are just like what do you mean ? We're standing here , this is our space , we're allowed to be here , it's our concert , which we pay tickets for , like , and there's a difference , too , between rude and aggressive .
You know , I wouldn't say that either , but in Billy , but Billy and Kara think that we're being rude and that we're being mean and that we're being like , you know whatever , like where you're being assertive .
You're being clear , you have boundaries .
This is what we're doing , and meanwhile there's a man just like , with his arm around Billy , whispering into his ear and Billy , they're going to do nonsense and won't say anything because he's a nine and hates confrontation and Josh is also , his blood is boiling and I there's still this part of me that doesn't want to cause problems with the weird guy that has
his arm around .
Billy , it's very weird , exactly .
Yeah , but yeah , but with the integra , I'm like , yeah , that's a perfect example of like I could be mad , and sometimes I am like I could be mad at Billy , because I'm like why are you letting this person in ? Why are you acting like I'm being rude ? Why is this happening , Whereas he's being like you know , why are you being so aggressive ?
It's not that deep . Like this is you're being a certain way ? Because he's avoiding it and he's afraid that I'm going to make him have confrontation too , which he doesn't want .
And I don't know with me . I'm not , I don't know what mine is , I just know that I'm withdrawn and I don't , I'm not going to be forward , but that's it . I don't , I'm not . I guess I'm afraid of the conflict too .
¶ Couples' Time and Enneagram Orientation
But with orientation to time it would present itself kind of the same way . Because I'm past oriented , josh is future oriented , so you have a fight . This is , I think , just across the board with any couple that has this orientation of time .
The past oriented person is going to say you always do this and bring up stuff from 10 years ago because I'm still back there and I'm still . I can give you a detailed account of what happened back then . This person has moved on .
The future thinking person they don't care , they're not only thinking of in the future and they're saying next time do this and I'm still in the past . And that's how that kind of presents itself , I think I would think for most couples . Or planning and just logistics .
You know , I'm I'm always basing what's happening right now off of what has happened in the past . That's how I make my way . You know , if this happened before , either I can do it differently or this is how I'm assuming it's going to be .
Whereas , like me , if I'm in the future , I'm being like I don't even really think about the past , like the past is the past , like I'm making a new way forward and let's keep going .
I don't really and that's where the planning comes into . I think that's why orientation of time is is very fascinating and it's fascinating to in your other friendships with parenting . What knowing that about my kids ? One of them will have an altercation and move on , and that's it . It's done . One who might have the thinking in the past .
And that one has the future orientation to time .
So she , we do that , we fight , we move on , it's over , and I , since I've done work too , I can move on from it much quicker . I'm kind of unfazed . Maybe a couple of years ago I might have been like well remember that time you did this and it was , but now I'm just like no , I understand her , she's not angry anymore and we're moving on .
But then there are other people in my family who are past oriented like me and also take some time to catch up . There might be an altercation or a little conflict and two or three days later there's still some anger there because it takes a while to process what had happened .
That's true too , because if you are a future person , I think you're a pretty like , fast thinker . You're ready to keep going , don't care , let's go , whereas if you're in the past orientation of time , it's slower and you're like okay , well , let me wrap that up and keep going , yeah .
This thing happens . Two days later , I'm still there saying we need to talk about this thing . That happened . Josh is done , already gone he doesn't think about it .
Same thing with kids .
Anybody like that . So and then I I'm not real super familiar with people how that presents , though , with present .
Oh yeah , present , I don't know .
I'd love to talk to a six about what it or one or one , because I don't really understand that and I'm not going to pretend that I do .
Yeah , or two , I don't know . I don't know what it feels like to be . I don't know . I would only be speaking to her experience of being present , but I do think that she's very like . This is what is happening right now . This is the current thing in my life and I'm enthralled with what it looks like .
I don't know , I'd have to ask about that Because also , too , like your Enneagram numbers is kind of like your , isn't it said ? Like your Enneagram is like your personality , but your personality isn't your soul self , is it your ?
essence , and so the work that you're doing is to get back to your essence , and I don't fully understand that . Sometimes , every once in a while , I'll have a moment where I feel that I am my purest , truest self Right , like your soul , self , your essence , whatever that looks like , yeah . Spirit . It can be sometimes listening to music or outside . Usually .
Then there's all these other things that we've put on from childhood , that we put on to cope , to make our way , to help us get through , and some of those needs . Shed would be the best way that I can .
Because at some point I thought to myself and you know , maybe I'm just having this thought right now maybe , in order to stop being envious , I decided to be unique or something . You know what I mean . That's when I put that on , but it's just something from our ego , I guess , like , what do you think that you do to make your way ?
I mean , I know you refrain .
I remember specifically one time that we were like in class and we were voting for like class , like the class president , or it was like class like leader or something I don't know , and I didn't get it and I was really upset and I went home and I like felt all weird .
But then I was laying in my bed and then I got up and I was like I'm going to call the person that won and I'm going to tell them like that I'm really happy for them , and then this is going to be like I'm that this is cool , like that I like this for them .
That's so , see , and what I would have done ? Because I didn't make things I'll try it out for a lot of things and didn't make them in middle school I would have just started crying and then cried probably for the next 24 hours , off and on , and told myself that you're not good at anything , yeah , and not really be depressed , but that's what .
Then I'd feel better , you know , within the next 24 hours . Yeah , it's funny that you did that , though , and that you remember doing that . I remember mom being like I'm not giving you the phone Like you're not calling .
So , she knew that I was pissed and I was upset and that you were going to call the person that won . Yeah , and I was like no , no , no , I like was like I'm going to get over it and I'm going to call them and tell them that , like I'm okay and I don't . And then she let you do it .
No , she was like I'm not giving you the phone , Like you're not going to call them . I'm sitting here upset about this . Why are you now going to act like you're not ? Like what are you ? doing it was probably a good call yeah .
Like it would have been weird , I know . I love that she didn't let you do it . Yeah , so weird .
All right . Well , I feel like we covered a lot . I think , yeah , you can't be two numbers , you're one number and again , it comes back to your motivation and if you want to take a test , that's totally fine , especially if you're super self aware .
But I would encourage you to start to just go online , maybe , and read a little bit about each of the numbers and start kind of narrowing down which ones you definitely are .
Yeah , and I think that that what's good about the Enneagram versus the like the other personality tests , is that it really can help you on a spiritual level . True .
Yes , that's a good point .
Once you know it , there are all these other tools in place that can help you grow , and I think that some other tests that you take are helpful , maybe with your coworkers or something , but I don't know that you can do the inner work .
Yeah , that you can do with this , I would agree . And like we literally just scratched like the smallest surface , like there's so much we could talk about , there's so much that it is involved , and like , again , we learned about this in 2019 and there's still stuff that comes back up and it's so good to know .
Yeah , I mean I'll say one more thing . I read you could read something about your number and you can say , oh , that's true about me , that's true , and then kind of forget about it . And last year I noticed I had read somewhere that fours daydream kind of out of it a lot , kind of in our imaginations .
And last year I noticed at work I was off and just completely daydreaming a lot and I'm like I really do do that and I need to rein that in . And now that I notice it , pull myself back together . You know , pull , I don't know , it's just weird , or you , you know you'll read it and it'll come back up to you in your daily life .
Oh , I do know that about myself . But then what are you going to do ? You have to do something with it .
You do have to do something with it , and also everybody does
¶ Understanding and Respecting Personal Perspectives
it , of course too . We already mentioned this a little bit too . But don't go typing other people Like you don't know their life , Like , yes , in theory , like I can look at somebody and talk to them and I have a rough idea in my brain of what I think they probably , you know , would say that their number is .
But that's , I'm not them and you know you don't want to go around and be like , oh my God , you're of this and you're of that and you're of this . It's very like personal .
Oh yeah , and it's like it is , and people don't want to feel like they're being analyzed all the time , and so , when we mentioned the people that we mentioned , they've done some work and they know we didn't come to that conclusion for them based on their actions . This is they've done the work . Yeah Well , this was fun .
Yeah , this was good Um road back to you If you guys ever want to read any books . Uh , suzanne Steeble , the Enneagram Journey Podcast . I mean , we should be getting an affiliate link from Suzanne , but um , we're not Shout it to Joel .
Yeah , but yeah .
All right , thanks for coming to the podcast , thank you .