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and start a 30-day free trial today. The bottom line is we teach people how to treat us and we entered into the relationship because we felt our worth and value.
validated and approved of because of the overgiving we showed up with. Welcome to the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast where we explore the many facets of complex divorce and invite you into a journey of healing and personal transformation that will radically change your divorce experience and set you up to be effective and feel empowered. I'm Karen McMahon, your host and founder of Journey Beyond Divorce. Let's dive in.
Greetings, folks. We are back with another episode. Today, we're talking about breaking free, transforming people-pleasing into authentic living during divorce with Nancy Levin. Welcome, Nancy. Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. Yeah. For each one of you, people pleasing is an issue. Any of us who have found ourselves in high conflict divorce, we...
Find ourselves in situations where it feels like an emotional battleground. And as a people pleaser, you're navigating a high conflict marriage. You're heading into divorce and you're stretched thin and you're giving and giving and giving and not getting much. in return. And we're going to talk about how that happens and some key tips for pivoting to something that's immensely more pleasing. You can read all about the topic in our show notes, just a little bit on Nancy. She is a master coach.
a best-selling author and the founder of Levin Life Coach Academy. And she's here to help you take center stage in your own life. You can read more about Nancy in the show notes as well. right in. Nancy, I love to ask my guests before we begin something personal about yourself, something that is unique that not everybody knows that has nothing to do with the work you do. What do you got for us? I am most happy all alone. All right. Does that make you an introvert? I'm definitely an introvert.
i am definitely someone who loves extended periods of time to spend with myself to regroup to refresh to regenerate And that is what does have me be able to bring my work to the world. That if I when I feel. that I'm always on or always forward facing that. can really drain me. And so I have really learned how important it is to prioritize my self-care, prioritize being super selfish about my time. and about what I say yes and no to.
Well, I love that. And it's actually a beautiful segue into our conversation because I think as people pleasers, there is an incredible amount of guilt and. internal judgment when we're doing what we consider selfish, which I'm hearing what you do is very self loving.
yeah and i will even say you know part of my work because i do a lot of work looking at our shadow and looking at the parts of ourselves that we've repressed and denied and rejected and so many of us reject and disown the quality of selfish because we think that it's either or I'm either selfish or I'm selfless and In the word selfless, in the word itself, less self. And so part of reclaiming these lost pieces of ourselves is also owning both.
sides, owning I am selfish and I am selfless. And there is a time to draw upon each one. to serve us best. So I'm actually a big proponent of selfishness and really owning my selfishness because That is a way that I'm able to prioritize myself and my own needs. And whenever guilt arises in this particular context, I believe guilt is good. Guilt is a signal that we are on the right track to honoring ourselves and our own needs. Guilt is an indicator that while this might be...
create discomfort. This might be uncomfortable. We are on the right track. Now, is that a rule for everyone or just people who have a tendency to be pleasers? I think people who tend to be pleasers. And again, people who are not people pleasers don't feel uncomfortable putting their needs first. So that's why I'm really.
careful to say if in this context you feel discomfort see if you can allow guilt to be good so you know as we are talking about the people pleasers the peacekeepers the conflict avoiders those of us who don't want to rock the boat I did this throughout my marriage. And so it was no wonder that I did it even as I was entering into the process of divorce. And I think it's what happens with many of us.
I had interviewed this woman, Carla McLaren, who talked about the genius in all our emotions. Yeah, I know her. Yeah, she's awesome. And she talked about how guilt informs every emotion and forms and guides. And she said guilt informs that you're bumping up against a side rail. And what's interesting is in this particular case, it's a side rail that you actually want to move. In many cases, we're guilty because we're out of integrity with who we are. And so we're guilty. But you just.
highlighted a completely different way of reading guilt in these situations which I love I'm so glad yeah I find it really helpful Yeah. Now, before we dive into the people pleasing, you mentioned shadow. I've had other shadow workers on, but not for a while. And I would love for you to just describe for the listener what you mean. shadow. And you have a logo or the way that you present things that's beautiful. So if you could share that.
thank you yeah so simply put the shadow is our unconscious and i actually think that the shadow is i think of it as a place within me so i think of it as a cave within me where I put any part of myself that I don't want to be and don't think I am, as well as... the parts of me that I want to be and think I'm not. And so this is sort of, if you want to look at this as the dark and the light, both of those go into the shadow.
And the shadow in this context was coined by Carl Jung. And so everything in shadow work is about making the unconscious conscious, bringing. the unconscious to light and so what happens is as we as we package ourselves to be digestible and palatable to other people as we craft a persona to take out into the world. We do that because we've gotten very clear messaging around what's okay and not okay to be.
And then we package ourselves in such a way that we are clear about what will get us praise and what will help us avoid punishment. And so we suppress these parts of ourselves. And as we do that, as we store away these parts of ourselves that can range from the ones we don't want to be and don't think we are. These are the qualities like lazy, needy, irresponsible, selfish, greedy, those kinds of qualities. We're also pushing away the qualities that we feel enamored of.
but we don't feel we are. So that could be confident or courageous or sensual or intelligent. So we do this with qualities on both ends of the spectrum. And the more we suppress them. The more we reject them in ourselves, the more we end up projecting them out onto others. And ultimately everyone is a mirror.
reflecting parts of us back to ourselves so we can reclaim and own and integrate these lost pieces of ourselves and in the shadow stewing amidst all of these qualities that becomes a really fertile breeding ground for beliefs, shadow beliefs that hold us back and commitments. that we've made that also make it nearly impossible to achieve what we want in our lives. And so the invitation with shadow work is to bring the unconscious conscious so we can move forward.
and truly live a life that we most desire and achieve and bring to fruition the vision we're holding for ourselves. Beautiful. Well, that was such a beautiful description of the work that you do and what it is. And so I really appreciate that. If we were to. hone in on people pleasing as one of the many pieces in one shadow. Can you share, let's just start with what is your perspective on what people pleasing is and the impact it has.
Yeah, I suppose people pleasing to me is similar to what I was saying before about projecting an image to the world that we have carefully crafted in order to get praise. So that. we have created a version of ourselves where we know that we are palatable. to others. We project an image that will not create conflict.
But really what's happening in all of that is we're sublimating our own wants and needs in service of the needs of everyone else. And what also happens when we are people pleasing is that all of our value and worth. becomes tied to what we do for others. That becomes the way that we even know that we are worthy and of value. And so we barely even know who we are.
if we're not in relation to something or someone else. And so this is also where boundaries come into play. Because as people pleasers, let's just face it, none of us were really... taught boundaries growing up. You know, it's not something we knew exactly what to do. And in fact, we began crossing our own boundaries very early.
When we are people-pleasing in relationships, really what's happening is we are crossing our own boundaries in order to maintain the relationship. So we're putting a relationship or an person above ourselves. And so when we're looking at how to pivot on people pleasing into prioritizing ourselves, we really need to take the attention off of everyone else and bring it back to ourselves. Because as people pleasers, we tend to have our antenna.
on what do they think what do they need what do they feel what do they want and so we need to learn how to actually bring it into what do i want what do i think what do i need what do i feel and that really has to begin from a place of being willing to give ourselves permission to consider our own needs at least as much.
as we consider the needs of others. And that's the baseline we have to begin from. Yeah. You know, it's so well said. And I think when you're in relationship with somebody who is... a receiver or a taker. And many of our listeners have been years, if not decades in these relationships. There's also... such a fear of the selfish and of the taking care of yourself and there's of course going to be quite the backlash that you're selfish.
Because you've trained me to expect you to like give up everything. And so now you're being selfish. That could be the kids. It could be your soon to be ex. And there's all of that childhood training. I was doing boundaries, boundary boot camp with this one woman. She said. good girls don't. Like it just came from her childhood. It just came out of her mouth. Like good girls don't do these things. Good girls take care of everyone else. And so there's such this depth or wave in that shadow.
When you're in relationship with this receiver or taker, how do you support people in walking that difficult path? Yeah. So first, what I want to share here is that as... as the over giver, as the people pleaser. We have to also realize what is called the narcissism of the empath. Because the narcissism of the empath is what has us givers, us people pleasers, believe that we can fix or save or rescue anyone else.
with our people pleasing, with our over giving, with denying our own needs. And so I have to start there because there are so many of us. who will relate with being the the whether it's the power source for the narcissist or even if we don't want to go so far as to use the language of narcissism in any relationship there is a dynamic that takes two to tango and It's really easy to stay in the place of blame and victim. And by doing our shadow work.
we are able to move into responsibility and empowerment. And so when we are in these relationships with where we are over giving. and we've trained the taker that we will over give i mean the bottom line is we teach people how to treat us and we entered into the relationship because we felt our worth and value validated and approved of because of the overgiving we showed up with.
And as we begin to change, we change the rules of engagement. We change the dynamic and there's no longer room for us in the relationship as it exists. And so part of the process of being able to shift from people pleaser and pivot into prioritizing ourselves is understanding our role. This is not about blame and being the victim. This is about how did I show up in this relationship?
getting what I needed at one time. And then there was this very sort of sinister shift that happened before my very eyes without me even noticing what was happening. But I have to remember that what drew me into this relationship in the first place is that I believed what I could do, what I could bring. I felt that sense. of power wow so in some ways you're saying that part of this process is coming to terms with the fact that i'm not that powerful
to control, fix, or do anything else in somebody else's life. And yet I have this huge power that I haven't necessarily been using to do anything and everything I want in my life. Bingo. 100%. Absolutely. Yes. Beautiful. So that discomfort, I would love to talk about this, the discomfort, right? Because it's like. Let's say the listener gets the concept. It's like they're shaking their head. They're going, okay. But oh my God.
to step into that, to say, no, I can't, to set the boundary, to say, actually, I'm taking care of myself today. Like all of those, as if selfish was getting. cut a thousand times by a sharp knife. There's such a fear. There's such a resistance. And I would say for myself as a recovering people pleaser, I had decades, decades and decades of this behavior that...
number one, I wasn't aware of. And then when I was aware of it, the changing was uber uncomfortable. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, here's the truth. It is uncomfortable, but discomfort isn't going to kill us. And doing things the way we've always done them, you know, it's the definition of insanity, right? If you do doing things the way you've always done them, expecting a different result. So we have to make a different choice.
We have to take a different action. And I'm talking baby steps. I'm talking micro actions. But we also have to be willing to sit in the discomfort. So what that can look like is moving away from. The loop in our head that might be, I know for me it was also for decades in an 18-year abusive marriage. What do I need to do or say to make everything be okay? That's the loop I lived in for years. And what that does is take me away from my own truth, takes me away from any sort of authenticity.
It takes me out of self-connection, takes me into codependency, which is expecting someone else to regulate me emotionally. And the invitation here is to be able to sit with the discomfort. And the only way to do that is to do that. And whether it's. breathing whether it's meditating whether it's journaling whether it's going for a run whether it's dancing whatever it's going to be
But to actually be able to just sit with the discomfort, because what you want to train yourself to know is that this discomfort will pass. And even in even tomorrow. to train yourself to know that even tomorrow i will be able to hold this better than i'm holding it today but the answer isn't to abandon ourselves to make someone or something else feel better. Right. That would be more of the same. That's more of the same.
Michael Singer in The Untethered Soul talks about how when you feel these emotions to open your chest, to open your heart and let it flow through you as if it was a breeze that was just hitting you. And that when we clench down and we... tighten up, we're actually locking on a cellular level one more time, the trauma from that, as opposed to when we open up. And I always loved that visual that I would get, because we all do, right? We want to protect ourselves and clench.
And what's the worst thing that can happen? It's a feeling. Exactly. And I think, and so to your point, it's very much like meditation, letting the thoughts come and go, letting the feeling. Feel the feeling and let it dissipate and going to the what if or going to the worst case scenario Because really to me what I've learned the worst case scenario will always be losing myself And I lost myself for too long to ever allow that to happen again.
So there's a lot of defenses that I've noticed people come up with if I'm truly loving, if I'm loyal, like all of these things, which I think, you know, you and I know that. the focus is in those is the problem but can you just and maybe you've heard a couple of other ones like the stories that keep people stuck in a pattern that they know on some level is not serving them. Sure. These really are the shadow beliefs around what do I make things mean about me?
Because that's really what our shadow beliefs are. They're the conclusions we draw about ourselves based on... events that are happening and our shadow beliefs begin to form when we're under the age of 10 when we're unable to process and digest what's happening so we start forming these beliefs we get imprinted with these beliefs based on what's happening we make things mean something about us and so chances are whatever beliefs were formed early
If they're unexamined, they are the beliefs that then drive the bus because our beliefs are magnetic. And so we draw toward us people. relationships, circumstances, and situations that reinforce what we believe. We collect evidence around our beliefs. So if our beliefs at an early age and These beliefs can be very simple sounding. I'm not good enough. I'm not enough. I'm unlovable. There must be something wrong with me. The world is not safe. Whatever those beliefs are, they're going to...
take us into our relationships. And we're going to live out these beliefs over and over and over again until we're really willing. bring them into the light and then shift what we believe about ourselves because most of us back to the conversation of worth most of us believe something or someone outside of us will have us feel worthy And it is an inside job. So we need to turn the ship around first. And we need to do this by shifting our beliefs backed by action, because it's not enough just to.
say, I am lovable. And I'm all for affirmations. You know, I 12 years as the event director at Hay House, I'm very immersed in all the woo woo. But I have to say that an affirmation alone is not going to create change. Action is what creates change. Nancy, I think that one of the things I've noticed the most over the years I've been doing this is we can talk about it. It can be in your awareness. And after all of that.
There's you're just toe to toe with your comfort zone and there's nothing else to begin to step through it. And I think that's also where so many people go, OK, I got it. I got it. I'm going to I'm going to step back from coaching. I'm going to step back from therapy, whatever it is, because. They're right toe to toe with that. And it seems so scary. And maybe you can bring some insight into why does it seem so scary? Partially, I think it seems scary because.
Again, just like we weren't really taught to have boundaries, we weren't taught to be in touch with our desire. We weren't really taught to want. And therefore, if we're not taught to want and if we. have a memory or an experience of our wanting being shut down. Not only do we suppress desire, but we also convince ourselves it's not safe to want and why bother wanting because i won't get what i want and so we really need to re-tap into
a place where we can connect with what it is that we desire and that we tap into the place where we can receive and have. So I have what I call my transformation equation. which is change equals vision plus choice plus action. So we want to experience a change. We first need to envision the experience. and the embodiment on the other side of the change. Really be able to envision ourselves what it's like, what it feels like, what's possible.
living in that experience of the change having happened. And vision... is one, you know, obviously everyone's talking about vision. Everyone always talks about vision. And I like to just demystify it a little bit because I just look at vision as an ideal set of circumstances. that you're holding, that you're inviting in. And then that vision becomes the gauge by which we make our choices and take our actions.
So every choice we make, every action we take, does only one of two things, serves our vision or sabotages it. And again, if you look at every throughout the day, we're making hundreds, maybe thousands of choices and taking hundreds and maybe thousands of actions. There are a whole host of choices and actions that we move through completely unconsciously on autopilot.
That's also why it's important to bring consciousness back in so that we can really take a moment to assess, okay, here's the change I want to make. Here's the vision I'm holding. Here are the choices I have. And if I make this choice, it's going to sabotage what I really want. And this can be as simple as I say I want to save money.
The change is like saving money to buy a house. When the vision is really envisioning myself living in this new house, this new environment, where I want to be, what it looks like, how I feel. And then I have a choice to make when... late night Instagram shopping, I find a pair of shoes I really want. Do I buy the shoes or do I not buy the shoes? And the more connected I am to my vision.
the less likely I am to do something that will sabotage it. Yeah, now I hear that. And it's almost as if with every choice, we're either... committing to ourselves or abandoning ourselves yeah exactly and most of us again most of us want some kind of external reinforcement and We really need to generate inside of ourselves the approval, the validation, the scaffolding.
And that's really where boundaries come in. Boundaries to me are the gateway to freedom. And boundaries are the way we, the number one tool. that we need to use in pivoting from people pleasing into prioritizing ourselves. Because boundaries are simply... the limits that we set around what we will or will not do will or will not accept and will or will not tolerate and ultimately my boundaries are between me and me
my boundaries are what's okay and not okay for me it's no one else's job to uphold my boundaries or even respect them it's mine so if my boundaries are being crossed i've crossed them And so from there, I really look at boundaries as being not restrictive.
but instead expansive. I look at our boundaries as being the way that we are carefully choosing and consciously curating the content of our own lives. And so by knowing... what is okay and not okay for me and how I'm going to hold my boundary and support myself, knowing that it doesn't require anyone else's buy-in, I begin to build that muscle.
So this is great. Very much aligned with everything that you're saying. We're going to take a brief commercial break. And when we get back, I want to talk a little bit more about boundaries and also in these high conflict marriages when you start. taking these baby steps and getting major pushback, like some strategies for handling that. Yeah. Your kids may not be the only ones taking tests this year.
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Let's dive into this concept of, I completely agree, setting boundaries is expansive. It's the path to freedom. It's the path to your most authentic self. And yet... You're an individual. You've been in a marriage. You said 18 years, 25 years, whatever. And you start. Committing to yourself and your teenagers, your spouse, it's like you're now not only are you in the midst of divorce, but everyone's everybody's got.
a negative two cents about what you're doing and how you're being. And of course, how selfish you are. Can you give our listener a few tips for how to handle that feedback and how to handle the understandable self-doubt in those early stages that arise? sure yeah so a couple things i'll share one is not all boundaries and i will say even most boundaries don't need to be verbalized because my boundaries are between me and me
I don't need to share the boundary that I'm setting and holding with you. And I will say I... absolutely do not ever recommend verbalizing a boundary with someone who is abusive, someone who is narcissistic, someone who is unreasonable. Let's just put them in the bucket of unreasonable human beings. It will never, it will never go well to voice and verbalize a boundary that you're setting and holding. So I
I'm a big proponent of boundaries don't need to be verbalized because you are the one who needs to hold them. And you're holding them by your yeses and your nos. And boundaries do not need explanation or excuses or a song and dance or a story. Boundaries are simply what's in alignment with what's true for me. And so from there, like I said before, we need to give ourselves permission to consider
our own needs at least as much as we're considering the needs of others. And for some people listening, that alone might feel like that is a huge ask. Then. The next layer is to give yourself permission to consider your needs even more than you're considering the needs of others. Oh, I can see that just shaking people right now. That's right.
and then the real boundary ninja move is consider your needs first before you consider the needs of others now i want to be really clear nowhere in here did i say don't consider the needs of others This is not an either or. It is a both and. And it is turning the ship around to consider ourselves first. instead of considering everyone else first. And that is permission you need to be able to give yourself. And if you are someone who's really tied to the way that you give and provide.
for others and that's how you know you're worthy, there is going to need to be some unhooking there. Because you are going to have to find your own sense of self worth. No one's giving you a gold star because you took a bath and read a chapter in your book. You need to give yourself your own gold star. Oh, I love that. And again, just how uncomfortable that is going to be for so many people where that's the only way that's been the culture that you've lived in the whole time.
I want to hear a little bit more of this. You don't have to state a boundary. Somebody wants... To not talk about the divorce in front of the kids and their soon to be ex always does. Walk us through a boundary like that. Yeah. So it can simply be I'm unwilling. to have this conversation right now in front of the kids period and then the other person can say whatever they want to say this is what i call the company line i'm unwilling to have this conversation now in front of the kids
And you hold the mantra of that's my unwillingness. That's it. That's it. And it's because again, it's what I'm willing or unwilling to do. Because a boundary, I want to be really clear, a boundary is not about anyone else doing anything different. Yes. So a boundary is not. saying to your soon to be ex spouse, don't talk to me about this in front of the kids. Because that's an expectation that they're going to do something or not do something. So that's why a boundary is
Here's what I'm going to do or here's what I'm not going to do. And I hold it. And you keep it in the eye. Always in the eye. Forever in the eye. And so the whole, I just was talking to a client about holding a boundary and she said, I, that's, that'll feel like kicking him while he's down. And for me it was. one of a gazillion versions on I'm going to be the bad guy. Yeah, this is a very, this is very resonant for me. This is very resonant for so many of us, because we want to be good.
We want to be seen as good. But here's the bottom line. How long have we been kicking ourselves? How long have we been sucking it up and sucking it in and taking the hit? And we are in a position to choose, am I going to keep taking the hit here? Or am I going to tell the truth? Because here's the other thing. We have to also look at these sort of subversive beliefs that we're holding in terms of how's he going to live without me or something like that.
I know for quite a long time, I was really locked in this. All I wanted to be was indispensable. in my job, in my marriage. And I wanted to be needed because that being needed gave me then the way to write. And I really had to work on my beliefs about indispensability, but I also had to look on, he's going to be able to do whatever he needs to do. He's going to have a life without me. And I'm not responsible for that.
And also being able to look at someone else's response to my truth is not my responsibility to manage. because yeah i was just gonna say one of the number one ways we cross our own boundaries is leaving ourselves and dipping into someone else thinking we can control their emotional experience in any way.
It's so true. And I was just talking to someone about Don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements and Don't Take Anything Personally. And I raised my kids and coached many of my clients around what comes out of their mouth and their... behavior is about them. What comes out of your mouth and your behavior is about you. It's actually very simple. We can keep it simple, stupid in that way. But yes, exactly that.
I think that another one, and we coach a lot of men in similar high conflict, but I would say this happens on both sides of the aisle. But I can handle it. So she's too traumatized or he has an addiction or so. I'm the stronger one. I can, as a defense for why I do these things, because I can take it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I can take it. Do I want to take it? Is this really looking at, is this.
how i'm willing to live my life is this the model i want to be for my children is this what i want to be presenting to the world is this really emblematic of the truth of who I am. I talk a lot about reinvention and to me, reinvention is returning to the essence of the truth of who we are before we began packaging ourselves. And if you are willing to take that journey into what happens when I tell myself the truth, who do I really become when I am in solid alignment?
with what's most true for me instead of constantly focusing on others because that's the thing the people pleasing and the peacekeeping and the conflict avoiding is all about being other referenced yeah putting everyone else ahead of ourselves to the degree That we don't even consider ourselves at all. And we somehow think that this is virtuous. Exactly. And that's really the sort of that's the most harmful messaging that we have received.
I ask people, where are you on your priority list? And it's like, I'm not even on the list. It's not even that I'm on the bottom. I'm not even on it. no it's when i use this example often we are so accustomed to setting a gorgeous table with lace cloth and crystal and silver and china and a big juicy steak or big juicy tofu and whatever and everyone is sitting at the table eating and we are in the kitchen in the dark eating the crumbs and scraps over the sink
And this is a metaphor, but I've had plenty of women tell me this isn't even just a metaphor. I do this. And so we haven't even given ourselves a seat at the head of at the seat at the table, let alone the head of the table. Like that's we need to give ourselves the seat at the head of our own table because no one else is going to do it for us.
And I think we have this idea, whether it's Disney and Prince Charming or whatever, we have this whole idea that someone's going to come and rescue and save us. Someone's going to complete us. There's a whole mythology around not enoughness. And we are that someone. And we are. We are the one and the only one who's going to come for us.
Beautiful. And I would very much like to tie a bow on this and then give some very specific strategies. But you just mentioned that one of my biggest passions is breaking generational chains by... changing the way we show our children how to show up in relationship. And so can you just touch on the impact of people pleasing versus living that authentic life on the children that we're raising? Yeah, what I see, and I'll be, I want to be really transparent. I do not have children.
coach a lot of people who've got kids and i'm quite close to my niece and nephew and so it's easiest for me to use them as an example in terms of my kids because they're as close to my kids as i will ever have and What I actually love because I felt very silenced as a child, not by my parents or my family. I just felt safe in silence because...
because I didn't feel like I fit in or didn't feel like I belonged. So I just felt safe in silence. And that got replicated forward into my marriage. I watched my niece, who's a firecracker. and at an early age she would be engaged in screaming matches with my brother-in-law that he actually encouraged. It was really healthy to watch her, know her conviction and know her voice at an early age and be encouraged to use it.
Instead of being stifled. And I've seen, and that might feel extreme for some parents, but what I've seen in her as she's now a 23 year old woman, I. watch the ways in which she moves through the world with such confidence. Confidence about who she is. Confidence about her voice, confident about her intelligence, confident about her opinions. And I know that there's a correlation between being a kid.
being encouraged to just speak what was true and not be stifled. And so I think Again, that might feel like an extreme example, but I do think that the more we as adults in this world, whether there are biological children or not, or our children and our family or not, but the more that we can encourage.
young people to know their worth outside of connection to anyone or anything else to trust themselves to trust that they are the experts on themselves that they have the answers within we're oriented toward something else outside of us having the answers. And I really think that it has to come back to self-trust. Yeah. And I think so many parents tell rather than ask. And it's part of that external thing. It was one of the things, my kids are 26 and 28 now.
I did a lot of asking. And at the end, of course, I would give my opinion and sometimes I would have the final say. But that ability to help them. find their voice, understand what their thinking was. And then even in scary situations like my... daughter would be afraid to say something to her dad. And I'd be able to say, what's the worst thing that could happen? He'll yell at me. Has he ever yelled at you before? Yeah, a whole bunch of times. And just walk through that honoring of yourself.
honoring of your voice because I had lost mine for so many decades. And so I love everything that you're saying. Yeah, I so appreciate this conversation. I know that I know you have a gift for our listeners and you might have if you do one or two very tangible suggestions for them as they leave this conversation. would be wonderful yeah the first thing i'll say is as a baby step entry point is to start to connect to what it is that you most want for you
Start to connect to your own desires, even if it's small. When I first started making a desire list, which is actually one of the exercises I give in my book Worthy to make a desire list. It was as small as like, I want to have coffee in the morning without anybody. bugging me. It can be that small. We have to start really connecting with what do I need? What do I want? What turns me on?
lights me up what are the ways that i can feed myself in this way how can i nourish and nurture myself because this also is about recognizing that our our needs are going to be met by ourselves first and foremost. And so to start identifying needs and wants and desires and ways to fulfill them and to keep it micro, to keep it small. And the other is here's another really practical way to approach saying no. So we're all used to these requests coming in.
And for those of us who are people pleasers and peacekeepers and conflict avoiders, we go into the knee jerk yes. So we go right into the yes. And we've said yes from a place of obligation, responsibility, wanting to be the hero. We don't want someone mad at us or upset at us or disappointed. So we go into that, we go into that yes. So here is something that you can do. If you can say no, say no. If you're not ready to say no, simply say, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
i'm going to be really intentional about my language it's not can i get back to you tomorrow we're not asking for permission we're simply saying i'll get back to you tomorrow And what we're really doing is we're building in a pause. We're building in the opportunity to sit with, is this something I really want to say yes to? Or am I saying yes because of one of these other reasons?
and a yes needs to come from desire yeah so once we yeah because every time we say no to someone else we're saying yes to us and vice versa. Every time we say yes to someone else, we're saying no to us. And so we really want to trust our yeses and nos. And when we say no to someone else, what we're also... What we're also letting them know is you can trust me. I'm going to show up with you in this relationship and I'm going to tell the truth. So you can trust my yes and you can trust my no.
I love that. And I'll just dot that I, which is when you're, you then face someone who's pressuring you to make a decision, an easy. out that I used for years was if you need a decision right now, it's no, but if you can give, but if I can take the time that I need, it may be something else. And so even then.
you can hold that line simply by giving them the option. Yeah, because someone else's emergency is not your urgency. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll often see that. That's beautiful. Free gift, how you work and where they can find you. And this is all in the show notes, folks. Okay, great. My free gift is a guide to support you in dipping your toe into shadow work. It's Becoming Aware of Your Shadow. It's at nancylovin.com slash aware. and it will
really give you a taste of how to be with the parts of yourself that you've disowned and how to reclaim them so that you can harness their power. Because circling back to what we were talking about at the beginning, we have all this untapped resource inside of us. We have all this power that we have not yet even scratched the surface of. And so shadow work gives us that accessibility.
Everything is on my website, nancylevin.com. So my socials, my podcast, my free guides, all the things, everything is there. And if someone is particularly interested in working with you, what's the best way of reaching out? Yeah, so I have a group coaching experience coming up that will launch in January around shadow work. And it's an eight week.
in real time group experience with me. I will, I'll simply say at this point, I do very little one-on-one coaching, but that doesn't mean I do none. So you're not going to find it anywhere on my website, but if you are interested in one. want coaching, you can simply go to the contact page and send me a message. Beautiful.
Nancy, I love the work that you do. You have a beautiful way of describing and explaining things that I think allows people to really receive and look at themselves. So thank you so much for coming and joining us and sharing your wisdom and some strategies. with us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. And we'll be back again real soon with another episode. Until then, you take care.
Thanks for joining us on the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. I hope you found guidance and encouragement to help you along your journey. If you like my podcast, please take a minute to subscribe and leave a review on iTunes. You can also visit us at jbddivorcesupport.com, where our team of coaches support both men and women. our one-on-one coaching, group programs, online courses, and free resources. Stay tuned for our next episode, and I'll talk to you soon.