James Dooley & Jason Mills | I Thrive Off Losing

Jason Mills: [Music] I sometimes Thrive off losing CU then I can get back up and go again if that makes sense and I think too many people are scared I think too many people do business within the comfort zone sometimes it's better for an extrovert to work with an introvert do you know what I mean it's like it's sometimes good for someone that's amazing content to get someone who's good at links to partner if you want to do SEO like so you've got to try to find people that that your weaknesses are to then elevate your weaknesses so together you kind of growing together and you both complement each other I need to do things the right way with honest trust and integrity that yes we could make more money by giving it to a competitor but it's not the right thing to do hi and welcome to the online performance podcast the podcast that aims to help you elevate your online earnings my name is Jason Mills and today I've got a fantastic episode lined up I've got an entrepreneur who has the largest digital real estate portfolio in the UK he's hailed as one of the greatest seos globally it is of course Mr James Dooley welcome to the podcast James what an introduction that is. James Dooley: Jason big you up now so you need to deliver and it's it's going to be an interesting one as well because although I've biged you up as this kind of SEO Superstar I really don't want to talk too much about SEO today and I'm sure it will come up what what I really want to kind of get into the nitty-gritty of is is you as a human being you as an entrepreneur and how those two kind of things have have led you down this path of of success so uh we're starting off each podcast with the same question and that question is what is online success so to you what does that what what does online success mean. Jason Mills: Online success is uh well I suppose there's different ways of online success so like it probably what it what it allows you to do is travel the world um it allows you to have free time it allows you to work from like like said any any place in the world have free time and allows you to earn money that you can never think of in your sleep the like normally I've been brought up that you hard the harder you work the more money that you earn or if you want a job done right do it yourself with online success is completely different you can set certain things up and join your sleep you can still be earning money which then gives you the freedom which I I think success is happiness so then it gives you the freedom to be able to do things anywhere in the world as long as you brought the laptop love that answer and I think that really aligns closely with my definition as well it's been really interesting we've done three or four of these interviews so far uh podcast episodes and everyone's had a slightly different answer but that's probably the one so far that most aligns with me I think that idea of having freedom to work from anywhere and to like you say make money in you sleep which is again from my background it's very different to how I was kind of brought up as well um so just let's just backtrack a little bit then just give us a bit of a an intro into yourself into like what what is it that's got you to this point uh what you know what did you do before online marketing even. James Dooley: So my background is um Quant surveying actual real estate and uh project management so it was to do with generally um working for a Housing Organization that built a lot of is one thing led into another and I started to realize there was massive shortages of people that actually built playgrounds so in the UK where for every time you build 50 houses you need a public open space which is basically a playground and I quickly started to realize as a Quant surveyor trying to find a playground company it was difficult back then this is God you're talking 16 17 years ago now um and obviously it just presented an opportunity for to say if I can't find these companies there's a lot of other people that can't find these companies so there's a gap in the market so I always feel like I had a little bit I always had an entrepreneurial type mindset of trying to find angles for business and for work and for growth SEO I didn't even know what SEO was it was never I was never at school thinking I want to be a digital entrepreneur or anything like that um I just I just knew when I first started the business I needed a continuous flow of quality inquiries and and I just dug deep with how do I get that and that's kind of how one thing LED on to another just for my own business that built playgrounds and tennis courts and sports pitches and then I started to realize from there then I needed that if I could get my clients busier I would become busier myself so it wasn't just for services that I did it was for services that my clients did and the busy that they became like we would then win more jobs if there was like a construction company there um we don't actually do the equipment on playgrounds we only do the surfacing because I realized that majority of the profits actually in the surfacing so we was getting the playground equipment companies busier which then allowed us to put the surface underneath their equipment and then it just kind of blossomed out and kept growing and growing and growing from there so I kind of always say that I always dealt with shouldering niches of what complemented my business and then roll on two three four years down the line we then start to make more money from lead generation than we actually did from the construction company that built the the playgrounds and stuff like that um and then that's when SEO then started to kick off so we still have that company today it's called Soft Services Limited in the UK builds all the playgrounds it's grown from I think it's like 600,000 to 8 million a year um so it's it's a successful business we've plugged in what we do with lead generation and it's it's still in the same kind of office block like we've got the upstairs now for all the soft services in the marketing team but things just evolved from there and yeah we've never looked back I love that because you you really have got that story of of taking an offline business and bringing it into the online world and then that those online processes that you have now have obviously had massive benefits to to the offline business as well so that kind of leads us into my next question which is you describe yourself as a digital landlord which I think for some for some people listening that's going to be a new term what does that mean can you just describe it for us. Jason Mills: So generally speaking a landlord is where you've got a real estate that you're renting out so a digital landlord is very similar it's digital real estate so websites that we rent out which some people know in the industry is being rank and rent so what you've got to do you've got to get a website you've got to get it ranking those rankings in that traffic are very beneficial to business owners that what what that ranking are for you rent the website out then they might rent it out for two three four 5,000 a month whatever it is that they're happy to pay and hopefully from there then they're they're making 20 30 40 50,000 pound a month they're very happy with the rental and we're happy because we've kind of got it's almost like having a client but we very results driven so if we do not rank the website they do not pay um so it's almost like it's almost like doing client SEO but we have to guarantee rankings if that makes sense which a lot of SEO agencies will not do because they don't know how to rank absolutely you've just got a few of those websites haven't you yeah just a few yeah 600 plus or something yeah different different niches I think there's 800 I can't remember the I think there's 862 something I think 862 was last time we looked different websites the the the clients are paying for as a rental I think there's actually over 1,500 different websites in total that are generating leads um there's quite a lot that we've built out that didn't work out for one way or another like the niche just wasn't the right type of Niche that then we've put into like a testing pool or we we make money via display ads and stuff like that just goes into a completely different department. James Dooley: So what was that transition like when you went from from that offline world to the online World it sounds like it was probably quite smooth because it sounds to me like there was a bit of an overlap between the two what what was that like in in reality if if you been honest if I've been honest with you Jason I still feel like every single day I'm improving the processes and this is 15 years on so like when when a lot of people meet me and they say oh you've got this fine-tuned business every single day I I treat as a school day every single day I'm looking to evolve and improve and kind of make things Slicker make things more concise and strip out things things that aren't needed and put more things in that are needed so yes it was a a smooth transition you could say to move from building playgrounds to do in lead generation because we needed it for our own website so for many for the first few years yes it kind of we just needed it for our own that doesn't mean it wasn't a bumpy ride some people like to just think that growth is just like that it's never linear it's always up and down always up and down and stuff like that and we've we've failed more times than you can imagine with regards to trying different types of links trying different Silo structures trying different CMS systems like we've tried everything and and a lot doesn't work and the stuff that does work we double down on and it's just then implementing what does work and going right okay this is where we need to spend more money and more time that's really interesting that kind of almost probably answers my next question which is you know you are seen in the world of SEO as being very very successful and is is that what you put the success down to is it the testing and that willingness to fail or are there there other things as well. Jason Mills: For sure yeah I mean I've got two I kind of sometimes come back to the same story where I've got two older brothers um this is just for myself personally growing up and we used to play a lot of sport in the garden and the two older brothers because there was two three years older than me used to beat me every single time so I justed this is when I was young so when I was like four years old I'd try and play football I'd get beat I'd start playing playing badminton I'd get beat I'd start wrestling I'd get beat I'd start boxing I'd get beat everything I did because they was older they'd beat me but then my dad used to always say are you gonna lie on the floor and cry are you gon to get back up and go again and I feel that that resilience that I have is from them early days in my in my life of getting beat by my two older brothers in sport but getting back up to go again roll on being 12 13 years old where I built up a bit and a little bit bigger they're still older than me but at that point I'm starting to beat them back at certain things so like I could be playing football and it could be like I could beat them they could beat me and stuff like that but I still had that resilience so still to now to this day I sometimes Thrive off losing because then I can get back up and go again if that makes sense and I think too many people are scared I think too many people do business within the comfort zone They don't push the boundaries they're scared they're scared of failure I embrace the failure and and I feel that that resilience and that kind of mentality that allows me to push the boundaries is what's allowed me to grow to where I am today allowed me to stay humble because there has been a lot of defeats and a lot of losses along the way stuff like I've had the way I do it so I know tomorrow and I'll give him up up I'll give upate could happen tomorrow and wipe out half aze and then I've got to get back up and go again so like where people think yeah you're really successful well yeah now when I sit back and look at what I've done but sometimes I'm always in a room and I always feel I'm I'm not the most successful person in that room I'm always looking at other people going wow that's amazing what they've done and I wish I could learn that little bit and when you you the introduction was absolutely amazing I don't think I'm anywhere near the best SEO in the world like I I I feel like I've got the best seos around me and I feel like I've got a great project management system which is what comes down to what my previous role was with regards to qu C and project management but I'm not the best technical SEO that there is I'm not the best link Builder that there is I'm not the best content writer that there is but do you know what I genuinely think I've got some of the best content writers in the world some of the best link builders in the world and some of the best technical seos in my team and if they're not the best well guess what I'm going to do I'm going to try and find out who is the best and I'm going to collaborate with them and I'm going to try to get them to train my team to become the best and I'll make if they they do help me I'll 10 times repay everything that they've done for the training for me to try and Elevate them and help them in everything that they've done in their life I there's so much so much gold in what you said there um particularly around your mentality as well and that that you know that not having that fear of failure uh the resilience and then that team so so you have built these team so I've got a little uh surprise for you now we're going to play a clip from a previous podcast so I just want you to watch this and then we're just going to talk about it a little bit okay the mentor and James by far has been like the greatest thing that's ever happened to me um as much as I don't like to admit that because I know what he'll do is he'll probably record this snippet and he'll just play it to me like what I'm the best thing that's ever happened you I'm like yeah okay I I need to admit it like um yeah he he has he has definitely changed like how I think not even when it comes to like SEO just like how I think when it comes to like life what what does that make you feel looking at that because that's that's again a very glowing statement you know that Senter Sher down Miss span it genuinely did like it um I'm proud of hearing that um because Kaz is a very very out there kind of guy that kind of I'm the best and stuff like that and sometimes like I've always tried myself to hustle in silence and let success be the noise and sometimes I'm trying to re back in to be like kazra you're going to be one of the biggest names in the industry without fail but don't like stay humble stay keep your feet on the ground you will get there you don't need to get there tomorrow right you he he has got he's got the resilience already he's got the motivation and he's got the drive to be the best right he's got the team around him to be the best know what he's got to do is leverage and be humble and be proud of people around him that allows him as an individual to have this data that then allows him to go up on stage or to have let's say certain debates with people knowing that he's got this data underneath him to say well actually do you know what I completely disagree with you and I'll back it up with x y and Zed and I think that's the most important part with regards to being able to back certain arguments up with data because there's a lot of SEO mys you'll know yourself Jason there's a lot of SE myths out there that people say things that's completely Incorrect and I think with with a lot of power comes a lot of responsibility and kazu's got hold of a lot of data and a lot of information and sometimes he's got to make certain that the way he delivers it is delivered in the correct manner yeah so that's sometimes it's trying to re him back I'm not trying to re him back like he he is going to be one of the best that there is out there he's going to be one of the best mentors that there is out there with regards to SEO he's still young I think he still will make some mistakes in business and sometimes that's where I'm trying to go like keep them under my wing a little bit to say like right you you're gonna get there but just get there in the right way if you get what I mean so yeah absolutely so am I right in saying that kazra is a partner in some of your businesses now yeah yeah so like I employ I employed kazra probably three years ago was a web designer right that he was just a web designer and a coder initially I met him I don't know if he's told you the story on that I met him in Liverpool at an SEO meet up and I think and he I think this is he might have a different exact minute but I think within seven minutes of meeting him right I said I the wording was Kaz this is what you're going to do tomorrow morning you're going to drive into your office you're going to hand your notice in and next month you're going to come and work for me right within seven minutes of meeting him right because I've seen the drive and the ambition and the entrepreneurial mindset that he had that I knew that I had the data and the information that I could Elevate him to be the to be one of the best because I I don't want to do what he's doing like he wants to get up on stage and do it I've always wanted to hustle in silence and kind of just be a family man and just enjoy life if you get what I mean so where and knew I knew what his hunger was and I knew that I could deliver and help him get to where he wanted to be and the next day he went in handed his notice and came and and worked with us he's been he's been great kind of for the first six 12 months as an employee built out some Frameworks some systems improved certain stuff that we had internally and then he then developed into being an entrepreneur so like within the business being like why don't we do this and why don't we do that to them being an entrepreneur way it was like actually why don't we do this outside of the business and do this as being a partnership and then he quickly then started building up um different kind of products that we had together different websites that we had together so he's a partner KN so many different things of what we do and then from there then he's he's always wanting to drive and Thrive and and move forward he's always got the mentality that if you don't innovate you're going to evaporate so he's is consistently anything that he makes he's like dly what can I reinvest this in make some more money what can I invest this in so he's consistently growing his asset value um and yeah he's going to do very well like I I I am nothing without the people around me I think that's very important I think that's one of the biggest messages I can deliver to anybody that to get to where I am today I you cannot do it without a team you need a massive Bank of writers a massive Bank of Link Builders you need a sales team and you need a hungry internal team that are loyal and trustworthy that are going to be with you for a long time and the culture of the business is all to help each other and Elevate each other so how do you keep them hungry is it is it this idea of you know bringing them in as as a partner giving them Equity or is does does there need to be something else I obviously there needs to be something else before that there's there's obviously things that You' see in these people you know what what is that is it and and you know do do the people that you bring in as partners do you think they share the same attributes or do they bring something new because we talked then about you know kazra having this entrepreneurial mindset now very much like yourself do all of your partners need to have that is that an important attribute. James Dooley: Definitely not so there's some great questions within you you there's three or four different parts there within the questions of what what you can do so to be a good like man manager and to motivate um people every single one of us are different every single person wants something different from you or from life right so there's no one siiz fix all there's no like if I make this person a partner of mine and we go 5050 or we go 75 25 or whatever the split is is that going to motivate them to be as motivated as let's say what I am no like some people want to work 9 till 5 and I've got some partners that work 9 till 5 switch off at 5:00 and switch off at weekends and they're still brilliant Partners but I've got certain people let's say like Kazu kazer don't switch off e like kazra Works seven days a week and he'll work 15 hours every single day to get to where he wants to be at right but actually having having plenty of kras as partners is not good for my health because I don't want lots of kras because like I've got the dra I've got a similar drive to let's say like Kaz where I'm wanting to always develop and improve even though I don't need to and I don't know why I keep wanting to do it there some anything within me that wants to keep developing and improving for what like I don't know because they only to say it's for for more freedom and more time I could have all the time in the world and just sit back and not do it so it's maybe not just for that and and I yeah that that's a different question to ask but with regards with regards to the to staff or Partners one you've got like I always look at someone face to face and and and I ask him certain question questions and they're always different questions but I try to work out when the [\h__\h] hits the fan and when things go wrong is this person going to roll up his sleeves and help me get out the trenches together and help us both get out or they're going to lie down and quit because if they're going to lie down and quit I don't want them as a partner are these are these going to have my back can I trust this person is this person do I think going to be loyal all questions are going on in my head sometimes you might have only met him for half an hour and sometimes you can get these decisions wrong so it's like when you do an interview with someone they might come across really well in the interview but then they might not be that person that they say they are in the interview so then what you then start to you start to test the waters you then start to go okay like you might employ them and then you might give them one or two tests tests like little bits of okay let's do a JV on this and see how they respond to that do that JV and then you might if they if you if they are really good you might do a second JV and a third JV and a fourth JV with them if they're not very good you just stick to the one JV do you know what I mean so that joint venture might be enough for that person and they're happy with that one joint venture that they might be earning an extra thousand pound a month which gives them enough to go on holiday twice a year and that's what they might think is success to them do you know what I mean we've all got different levels of what success is so youve just got to try work people out um I feel like now my my role more than anything else is being a cultural architect so like with internally within the business understanding each and every like I I can't understand every members of Staff because we've got too many members of Staff but my middle managers that I deal with on a day-to-day basis which I think is is 11 in total I only deal with M11 and spend majority of time with M11 they've got to then with the next kind I'm not saying the next tear down really like using that kind of wording but they've got to that for their vas and for the people that work for them they've got to keep them motivated and the more motivated more motivated they keep them the better that their work is which then it comes to to myself and if they're doing well in there I I want them only doing four hours a day if if they can do the work within four hours a day because it means that they're managing their St staff efficiently who might be doing eight hours a day and getting the work to to be done if you get what I mean so it's just it's different horses for courses so to speak it's everyone's different trying to weigh up what they want and what makes them tick some people could on a football team you might have some of them that are the best footballers on the team but might not earn the highest wage let's say at man united so they're not all driven by money some people just want like a longer term contract at the club because they love the club do you know what I mean like I got certain people that would work for me now that are earning a lot of money and they would work for me at half the money that they earn and I know that they would right but I want to be the one that elevates them I want to try to make majority no all nearly all of my middle managers I want to make every single one of them to be millionaires even if they don't want it I want to get them to be every single one of them to be millionaires and that's like a personal drive for me so even though sometimes they might not be motivated I'm trying to sub motivate me to managing their staff which then elevates them even more if that makes sense so I'm trying to do it in different ways um there's people like mad singer that's a great man management and you learn a lot of little things from him to how to how to try to motivate someone that's not very motivated and stuff like that and there's all different ways you can dangle a carrot some people you need to hit with up obviously not not actually hit with a whip but you say you dangle the carrot or you give them a whip and stuff like that and it's just about knowing the people that work work with you and knowing the what they're going through in their own personal lives and what makes them take I imagine the hiring process is so important then do you do you still are you still a key part of that hiring process do you still do that yourself or is that something that Cascades down those kind of tears not I don't do any hiring anymore apart from they're going to be like um a a business partner of mine so I might look at someone who's quite higher level let's say yourself where we've been to certain uh Minds together and I might go do you know what I love the drive of what Jason's got to bring and then I might hit you up and be like let's do this together or let's do that together you're absolutely brilliant in this field here and I feel I can bring this to the table and that 1+ one equals three together the objects that merge together is far greater than the 1 plus 1 equals 2 so I'll try to find places or people and go like this is who I need in my life this is my weakness and this is who I need in my life to make me a better person so I'm more business partners now than actual staff my staff um I pretty much know all my partners they're not really my staff anymore and they then for them to evolve and for them to grow they've got to decide on who they want to hire because they're dealing with them on a day day byday basis because if I'm hiring for them they can just have the excuse well you hire them where if if they're hiring for himself and it doesn't work that's fine get rid of him if you don't think they're good enough but don't you can't blame anybody but yourself because you was the one that hired him and trained him do you know what I mean like if I get involved in the way that they do business and the way that they train their staff they're not doing it their way and and if they're trying to do it my way and they're not as motivated or like like I'd like to think that with and and I think that pretty much all my business partners would say this is that I've got an energy about myself I'm very trustworthy and very loyal I'm a family man I do everything with honest trust and integrity that that seeps out and people understand that that's who I am certain others that might not PE the people that they employ might not see that in their direct line manager so they've got to they might have to work on different ways for my man man agement than the way I would do it if you get what I mean sometimes I'm very straight talking and I say it as it is some of these others might not do it that way and I can't say you have to do it this way because that's not their style so day-to-day recruitment now is done by whoever's their direct line manager absolutely um yeah I used to work with a head teacher who had that exact uh philosophy with regards to hiring staff as well and he he lived and swore by it um and I'm still waiting for that call by the way right we're going to change we're going to change tact a little bit now uh I want to get into the I I knew of James douy probably three or four years ago it was almost like this the myth the legend James Dy you know and and probably even uh longer ago than that but it's only really in the last maybe I don't know six to 12 months that I feel like you've started going on podcast you've got a little bit more involved with social media um now obviously you built this digital Empire kind of in the shadow or at least not in the public Spotlight so do do you think that doing that has contributed towards your achievement and then the second part of the question is why come out into the spotlight now. Jason Mills: So the spotlights come along because um the the truth of the matter is like one so there's various reasons why one is AI so I worry that if I don't have personal say that um behind certain AI let's say websites I think feel like personal branding is becoming more and more more important than ever so that's one part the second part is we had certain domains that we was contemplating on selling and one random investor that was coming to buy the site says we can't buy the site from you because we don't know who you are you won't you could not be behind this website and thought that I it was was me selling on behalf of somebody else because we're like we don't know you as an individual online and we know all the best seos in the world and I'm like maybe don't I'm not saying I'm the best SE in the world but I'm like who you think is the best seos in the world and who are up on stage are not the best seos in the world right there's a lot of people on the Underground that absolutely are earning way more even than what I'm earning do I mean they're doing 10 million plus a month in profits over various niches in lots of different jurisdictions in different countries and I'm like trust me are you think of the best in the world and nowhere near the best in the world so but then it got me then to think that if ever I did want to sell certain assets so let's say I had a business partner and there was really eager to sell to get a nice biller abroad or whatever they wanted to sell for and I was like all right I'll sell with you let's do it and I was attached to it and they says um sorry we can't because you build pbns I'm like I don't build pbns well they video back in 2004 said that you do pbms do you know what I mean where I feel like do you know what I need to deliver who I am online in my own messaging so people if people want to know who I am they can see who I am and see that I'm a I'm a genuine person but not only that as well for sometimes for investment opportunities like I'm now at a point where I'm not having to deal day-to-day on certain tasks and I'm wanting to get my name out there a little bit to other very influential high level seos that might not be good at what I'm good at so they might be very very very good at something that is my weakness and I might to say I might be able to go I can plug in what I'm good at which is project management which is staff and get and get certain things set up for your business and we could treble your business are you interested and and I know that I'm I I know that if it's the right business for me I know I can bring a lot of value and I want to make certain that these people that might want to do business with me can see what value I can bring so sometimes it's good to have these podcast and conversation so people know who I am what I'm about and and sometimes I might decline work and it's not it's nothing against the the individual person it might just be the niche or it could be I don't think that's on would trajectory of it being a trend that's worth me getting into I apologize and I'm not a bad person I just don't want to do that nich so do you think it was helpful to as you were growing and scaling do you think it was helpful to do it without that public Spotlight because one of the things that is coming up a lot on these podcasts is this idea of growing a personal brand but as you know and I very well know being out there putting yourself out in then the spotlight attending these interviews you know it takes up a good chunk of your time so do you think it was helpful like just from a focus point of view to do it kind of in the shadows and and you know to someone that's listening and thinking I want to start a personal brand but I also want to build my business online is that a good strategy. James Dooley: I'd say no it's not a good strategy I think I'm I'm in a fortunate position now where I've got a lot of spare time which allows me to do these podcasts I've got a lot of spare time that allows me to do the webinars and stuff like that back then when I was like hustling and grinding and building like I couldn't have done these talks there's no chance because it would have took me like two hours of my day out of my day to come and do this podcast with yourself and don't get wrong I love speaking to you Jason and stuff like that but that's two hours out of my day that I could have been instructing more websites to be built like literally that's we yeah in back in our back in ourada we was building 30 to 40 websites out a day right so if if I wasn't there for two hours that could have been five new websites that might have not have opened the door for some of the opportunities now that what we've got so that wasn't that wasn't doing it all the time but they like certain sub like certain sub websites that we do just for test like we we used to build sites out just to test search volume and then then from that then from 10 websites and just testing search volume and seeing what the impressions are and stuff because H revs and semra come back with so many zero search volume keywords that might get two three 4,000 hits a month though it allowed us to do our keyword research without using Google AdWords without using these third party tools we did our own method of doing it where we' build certain sites out there might be like um 10 20 PID sites get the data and go wow this is better than this let's now build the site out on on this and with 301 and back to that domain and stuff like that um so we there's a lot of testing back then of what we was doing there's a lot of Miss I didn't want to go and I didn't want to really go and get on podcasts and say things that was going against the grain of the what these SEO gurus were saying because do you know what I would have spent all my time arguing and I'm like I don't want to argue I just want to do what's working in today's algorithm and what people was teaching wasn't the best strategies of what was working so what do I do sit down all day in Facebook groups educating people what does work and they go well I listen to this Neil Patel podcast and he told me to do like well go and do that then if you want to but then I then have to then start proving proving myself to them and I'm like I don't need to prove myself to anyone what I've just got to do is look after my friends my staff and my family everybody else at at that time I didn't care about I just wanted to learn develop look after my friends my family and and my staff and build up an Empire and then that's probably gone yeah and then that's basically it it was just then we allowed to do it in a lot of different Industries we then we then learn from one industry to the next there's a lot of different nuances we did it in display ads we did it in affiliate we did it in lead generation so many people just think we only do lead generation and rank and rent like we're in some of the toughest niches that there is with regards to casino and slots and sports betting we do all that as well but people just like talking about the rank and rent side of things of what we do okay let's segue now into more James douy the person then and I want to get into this into your mindset into your psyche and kind of you touched on it earlier what keeps you going what is it that because you don't need to keep going but it's that inner kind of drive and that inner fire that keeps you going so we're going to delve into some of that I I looked at at one of your websites and uh I think it was the fat rank website and you said I want to do things I love with people I love doing it in a way to be proud of and you also said the keys doing all this and you mentioned this already today with trust honesty and integrity so my question is how important is that to you Above All Else and is that something that you now have as a luxury because you've got the money or is that something that you always had did you know was that trust honesty integrity and doing the things that you love with people that you love has that always been there. James Dooley: So the first answer is no it's not always been there and it's not that I didn't do things with trust and honesty and stuff like that but I'll I'll EXP explain to you why that vision statement was made and then I'll work backwards with like some of the stuff that it's like doing things that I love some of them niches that I'm in like carpet cleaning I can't say that I love carpet I'm not like a freak that goes oh there's a bit of red wine on the carpet here I love that do you know what I mean so like it's not I didn't I'm not in all the niches that I love and that's it and it's all this is my hobby and and I really like talk blogging about this no it's some something like we're in the funeral Niche I don't I I don't I don't like funerals believe it or not like no it's not a niche that I like I don't like Insurance you know what I mean like it's not really things that I love but what was important for me was about seven years ago I made that vision statement and the vision statement was made right and the main part of it was I had certain managing directors and certain owners of businesses that couldn't sleep at night that was renting my websites and they was worried because they'd gone from having two vans on the road to having over 20 vans on the road and having 65 members of Staff installers on the road working and at any point I could have turned them leads at any point I could have turned the leads off so they and they knew that and they got thems in a position where they'd ring me up and say James I have built my business on quicksand and I'm like what do you mean they're like we are 100% reliant on your Elites tomorrow you could double the price and we' not be able to afford it or we'd have to pay it or even worse a competitor comes along and says we'll pay you 10% more and we're paying 20 grand and a competitor comes saying we'll pay you 25 Grand or 22 Grand or whatever it is and you go okay see you and I go and then go down the road and they give it to competitor and then he says and then I've got to now go and get rid of 65 members of staff and when I sat down in the meeting I was like yeah you're right and and then at that point I'm like what do I say to that I can I can I can do that like you're right I'm not gonna do that but then he's like yeah but you say you're not going to but the bigger you become sometimes you're not dealing with these websites and then at that point it was like an epip fromy of being like wow you're right I need to make certain that my business partners following the same vision statement that I have and and that's when then I needed to create a vision I never had a vision statement because I I never knew that I needed one but then what it became very apparent was every partner that I have I need to make certain understands that I need to do things the right way with honest trust and integrity that yes we could make more money by giving it to a competitor but it's not the right thing to do if you've built out a website or a set of websites with a company and you've built that up with them along the way yes I own the website but you've got to have some Integrity in keeping them as being the client because it's just not right that 65 families could be affected by one one r decision to turn them off and it would that was the reason why the vision statement was created because with a lot of with a lot of power comes a lot of responsibility now I knew that I wouldn't do it I needed to make certain that people around me wouldn't do it as well because some of these people aren't in a as fortunate position as where I'm at now in my career um let's say having a nice holiday home having a nice house all paid for and stuff like that I don't need to make those rust decisions those might have a mortgage and those might want to make more money and go it's a good business decision to turn them off but sometimes it's not the right decision so that's where that came from but to say to do the things I love was more doing things with my partners and being able to travel the world with my partners and do things with people that I enjoy doing it with so sometimes if I I've had one or two business partners along the years we've we've gone ask separate ways still in good terms I just didn't like being around them they was they was very good at business but they were just mouring every day so that's where part of it's like doing this the things I love with the people I love it means traveling the world with people that I enjoy traveling the world with if they're not my family I want to make sure my business partners I can have fun with them and have a laugh with them and it's fun I don't need to do it with someone that's very negative and that's kind of where that vision statement was was written very carefully by himself and then presented online so you've probably seen more successful and maybe unsuccessful entrepreneurs than a lot of people because you know you know a lot of people you work you've got a lot of Partnerships and you know just and I know you network and you travel around and you go to all these events so are there any kind of commonalities that you've seen amongst the successful entrepreneurs is you know what is it that that you think people need there'll be people listening to this podcast who are you know really inspired by your story really wanting to start something but is it for everyone you know is what is it that what does it take to be a successful entrepreneur. Jason Mills: So one of the questions in there says is it for everyone no because like being an entrepreneur isn't doesn't make you the happiest person in the room you might be the richest person in the room it doesn't make you the happiest person in the room I know a lot of people that are very very very successful businessmen but are they the most successful people in life no they don't spend much time with the kids they don't spend much time with the wife or the husband they don't have the memories and the experiences and travel the world and see the different cultures the helps deteriorated that don't go to the gym like are they really the most successful people like how you deem success so is entrepreneurship for everyone know in fact I would put a lot of people off from trying to be an entrepreneur because it's it at s can be very lonely as well it's not all rainbows and sunshines or sunshines and rainbows you know what I mean is this these times it can get deep and it can get dark and it can be like is this worth the Journey of what I am following so it's definitely not for everyone in my opinion and this is just a personal opinion the people that seem to do the best are not the ones that uh what I would say penny pinching it's the ones that are trying to offer value you and try to deliver more value to their business partner than what they think they're getting back and over a longer stretch of a period when you try to give and not take you get so much more in return you when you try to give to someone that is probably a higher level than where you are and you don't even realize this and you're not doing it just because you're trying to get something back from them you get so much more back from these people and and I just naturally have um I like to share and have a good time and I just feel that that's probably been one of my main attributes that I've had that have helped certain people without knowing who they are and they've gone above and beyond them to take me up onto another level and take me up onto another level and take me on up onto another level and they've gone way above and beyond what I could ever have asked anybody ever to do and they did it because they like I'd go to the bar and buy them a drink and I'm not saying it was just that but there was like elements of like you went out for a meal and they paid for the meal and it was like just something so lit on there was like I remembered that so this is why I've done this and like the sometimes the people they'll they'll just test certain people like maybe even the bar like oh do you want a drink and like and if they're not willing to buy you a drink back you kind of go right okay that type of person and the people that give seem to get so much back in return so if you're not naturally a giver like just try and start working on stuff like that because in my opinion the people that give get a lot more back and that and that's probably one of the main attributes that I can give to people like Kaz is going out now like we back on the thing and giving a lot of valuable information out he will get so much in return for the value he's delivering to people people will want to partner with him people see him as being the dawn of SEO like it because and he's just got to keep giving and not not trying to charge people for certain information just trying to elevate others as they elevate and they earn more they'll repay you in in rate of knots that you could never reol yeah absolutely so I mean one of the first times well I think it was the first time I met you actually was back at search Birmingham we we're in a mastermind group together and I think it kind of struck me that you know you you had all knowledge and kind of sat there thinking what is James getting from this he's giving giving giving but doesn't see you know obviously there was discussions going on you might have picked up Little nuggets here and there but what is it that you get from that other than the idea of just giving back so from from that and I'm not just saying it because I'm on your podcast I got you from it like I got you to realize who I am I got you to realize that I am relative knowledgeable I got you to realize that um I do give a lot of information out I do feel at some point in the next few years we will cross paths and potentially even do something together so like the and I I didn't know that prior to the The Mastermind but like out of the group I I thought that you presented yourself amazingly I thought what you did was I was very intrigued and interested in it that sometimes you don't see your own successes properly anyway like you just talk about all that's just common knowledge this is what our know and everything like that so sometimes I'm set oh my God that's AIT like Jamie I was and I oh my God that's amazing what you're doing and stuff like that and I genuinely mean it like because I still see myself as being this person from when I was back at school just been I didn't have money back then so when I see somebody else doing well I legitimately like and some people some entrepreneurs don't feel this way but I legit from my car love hearing a success story and some people get seem to get jealous and I'm like how can you get jealous about someone that's worked hard and done really well I'm like high fiveing and way that's great and stuff like that but I get a lot I get a lot more from the masterminds than what you think and it's not the knowledge of oh this is an SEO hack that works really well because I've got a testing team for for that if someone gives me a bit of knowledge I can go and give it to the testing team to try out it's not really the SEO knowledge the networking and you'll be surprised of where that leads you and I think like I'm not saying I think I'm front out there now in the in the in the world will cross paths and we'll end up doing something there'll be something that you're you come up with an idea and you might go do you know what I think if I needed to choose a partner of in doing this I think James is the person that could help me get to where I need that to get to and at some point you'll drop me a message in the next two or three years and say what about this and it might be something that just goes light bul moment and go wow that's an amazing idea it might not and then it might might have been a wasted day in Birmingham but it's never a wasted day because there's loads of other things going on and different people that you meet so it's not just from that half a day or full day there of like what you're doing and what knowledge do you have and like what do you do for your link building strategy how many links do you build a month and this because like what's your keyword density of content like oh shut up do you I mean like it's not that it's longterm like what what did you get from this podcast like what what what could I get from this podcast someone might watch this podcast and go I really like that person and it could get me a ridiculous or one of my one of my staff a ridiculously big client that say I want you to do Rank and R for my electricians business or roofing business and that might be one of the best UK companies that there is that just need some inquiries I mean you just you just never know where things lead to no I think you're absolutely right um you know in terms of making those connections is is key I'm a massive advocate of of saints people just get out there Network build relationships because you said it yourself you know being an entreprene prer can be a very very lonely existence you know I've had this beautiful Studio build but at the end of the day it's just me sitting in here and working away and it can be very very lonely so for me yeah and it's the same thing you just pick up all these little relationships and yeah the tips are great but actually yeah there's always going to come a time where where that can be beneficial for both both sides as well uh okay so one of the things actually you did talk about I think you were talking about it in Birmingham was the idea of introverts and extroverts and I know in terms of SEO and probably the online space as a whole it's probably known as being more of an introverted space do you think that I mean first of all I mean not saying why he's better than the other but is is being an entrepreneur better suited to one or the other or do you think it's it doesn't matter like because both have the benefits it really doesn't matter um but what I would say is you've got to sit down and look at yourself in the mirror and look at who you are at your core and what your weaknesses are and then try to if you want to be the top of the pile and be the boss and you've got all staff then you got to employ people or if you want to do like a flatline g a system and have business partners then you've got to try to find a business partner that can complement your weaknesses so they've got to be try to be good at what they do if I'm an I'm I'm sure you know I'm an extrovert right but a majority people in the industry are introverts well that works amazing for me because I don't want two extroverts I don't want an a and an a g of clash in or a plus and a plus clashing sometimes it's better for an extrovert to work with an introvert do you know what I mean it's like it's sometimes good for someone that's amazing content to get someone who's good at links to partner if you want to do SEO like so you've got to try to find people that that your weaknesses are to then elevate your weaknesses so together you kind of growing together and you both complement each other is probably the best answer I can give to that um I know a lot of very very very successful introverts majority of the introverts that are successful are more successful in like affiliate or display ads because they're not having to speak to clients yeah they don't like speaking to clients I've got a sales team so I've got a sales team full of extroverts and I've got a lot of my best seos are introverts so like I'd say to be an SEO you're probably better as being I'm not saying better being an introvert but you seem to be more reclus and seem to be more you're happy with your own surrounding to crack on with work where an extrovert don't shut up in the office and I'm like just get on with your work for goodness say I mean so like but but they're good at sales and stuff so you try to put people of who's good in what position but you yeah you can you can be both in a nutshell and both and be very very very successful yeah agree with that uh okay so starting to get towards the end of this podcast I want to just delve into a couple more things really where where's the end game for you or do you even see an end game you know seemingly you manag very very successful pretty much has it all what what where where's it going so I'm being 100% honest with you I'm going to get quite um dark here and deep um I've got a few good friends that had an end goal in mind um I'm not going to name names but one one of them put a figure of 50 million pound as being the end goal and he sold up one of his bit his he actually sold two businesses and he got to 53 million right and this friend was he had two amazing kids an amazing wife he was a good footballer he had a lot of friends around him me and many many many others he had a good family around him he he was someone that I kind of looked at and was like wow like you you have it all you have everything and when hit his goal like in the top of the mountain this is where I want to get to I've never seen a person deteriorate as much within 12 months in my life and then ended up killing himself now that is getting very deep right and this guy had everything everything so and I and I've seen it not happen once I've seen it happen a few times now luckily one or two others that I've seen it happen to who might it doesn't matter what the figure is whether it's 50 million or 30 million or 20 million or 5 million what a million whatever it is the figure doesn't matter right but the people who seem to set themselves a goal when they hit that goal or every single person that I see that hit hit the goal tell me I've just got this feeling of emptiness I thought that like someone go someone's go could going by Ferrari they buy the Ferrari they're happy for a week two weeks and then they're actually again getting stressed about work can the parket that it's getting keyed that oh my got to just scuff my allies and they're like actually it just adds loads of extra like stress in my life I don't want it anymore and that was something that I really really really wanted so so in answer to it is I don't have an end goal my end goal is today to be happy today that if one of my friends pick up the phone to me and need some help that I try and help him if one of my if some of my family need any of my help I'll try and help them but just enjoy today not not think about tomorrow not think about where I'm going to be next week or next month or next year or that hopefully I can get to 200 million or 500 million or whatever the do you think is a value that's going to give you happiness it's not like no value is going to give you happiness happiness is what goes on today and what happened yesterday like tomorrow's a different day and just just actually be proud that when you wake up if you've got a roof over your head and you can turn a tap on and clean water comes out the to that actually you appreciate that you've got clean water coming out of tap and you've got a roof over your head because there's a lot of people out there that don't have a house and they've got to walk a mile a day to go and get clean water so when you have those kind of expectations when you wake up every morning and you're proud that you've got clean water and you've got a roof over your head you're not then having this you're going out for a Stak and I've had better Stakes like stop being so ungrateful you know what I mean so the the the answer the the sh answer is I don't have an in goal uh my in goal is just try to to be as happy as I can today than what I was yesterday and hopefully tomorrow I'm as happy as what I am today I think that's a really healthy answer to give I really do and I think it's something that so much of us could do more of is to just practice that gratitude I know my wife's always talking about doing a gratitude journal and she finds it really helpful um and also how much we enjoy the day-to-day process of what we do I think a lot of us underestimate that so I I think I I definitely do if I think back to maybe 10 years years ago when I I wasn't working on my own project my day-to-day process was nowhere near as as as fulfilling and gratifying and yet I'll still have days now where I'll go oh God that was a crap day and yeah you know but really if I compare it to my best day 10 years ago it's probably an amazing day so you know what you know what though Jason M so couple of bits on that the crap days sometimes Embrace him and it sounds D this right because the crap days make the good days better right so that's what you've got to always realize the crap days make the good days better it's a great saying because if you just have good days your good days become average days and you expect a good day and that Delta from being a good day to a great day if you have if every day is a good day and you have an average day actually the expectation there the Delta's unhappiness so then it's all comes down to expectations so sometimes the C days are good like because like you said you appreciate then if you have a little jump on a ranking you're like yeah you can celebrate it and have a good I think I'm like you as well I I thrive off it really you know like at the moment for me personally with my portfolio of sites we're way down on where we were six months ago you know people talk about helpful content updates and things like that or just algorithmic changes in the online world but I was actually thinking about this a couple of days ago and I almost tweeted it I actually almost Thrive off it I almost prefer these s because probably for that reason that you just said there that you know you know that you're going to get through it you know you're going to be better the other side of it and and then it does make those days all all the better no I I agree is it is it true that in your offices you you like do high fives or you ring a bell or something when someone fails at something yeah yeah yeah like it's like if if I kind of say to how many times do they failed today and like if they've not failed today I kind of call them a failure for not failing today so you've got to push the boundaries to fail and every time you fail it's like yay I five and we're like embracing people to fail because it's only then you learn what the boundaries are so if you don't know what the boundaries are how do you know how far you can push something so but if I don't from the top down kind of say to him we've got to embrace it people are scared of thinking oh I don't really want to do that CU I might fail no do it I want you to fail tell me how far you can push it no I don't want I don't do all the money sites obviously but like on the main money sites but on all these others yeah of course we do like see what you can do see what you can get away with because if you can get away with doing those entities five more times on the Page by having them five more times on the page is better than only having them once on the page so like it's still the core algorithm is still page Rank and words on the page so you can get them more time it's just you don't want to over optimize it and St obviously it's Advanced a lot more than just words on a page but like you've got your semantic triples and stuff but we're probably going to get because that's a complete different topic of conversation yeah absolutely I mean we could this could be like a Five Hour podcast I've got a bunch of questions I'm trying to now pick out cherry pick the best ones because you know I literally talk day want that's not you are um so yeah we are coming towards the end so probably got one or two more questions that I want to ask you uh and this one really is again for people listening that are thinking about you know starting a new project online or just just moving into this if you were to start again from scratch with with with the knowledge that you've got now but not the connections and not the finances so you've got the knowledge but you've not got the connections and you've not got the finances what would you do and why so what I'd do is I would go and work in an SEO agency because I've got the knowledge so I know very very very quickly that there's already clients there that that SEO agency have got that I could then quickly turn around and and start to improve their sites very very very quickly giving them the best bang for their book which then I'm hoping that the owner of the business then would turn around because I have no money so I can't go say oh I'm going to go and build my own website I've not even got this six pound to buy the demain you know what I mean I whole St or anything so I'd go and work I'd go and um leverage my skills or what I'm good at I'd then try to start speaking hopefully I find the right company where I feel that the CEO of the SE agency has got some of drive and Improvement to say can I bolt on Extras to this client that's to see whether this client would do it and if the client after I think after several conversations with him he'd start to say think he knows what he's on about and I could then start to B on doing if I grow this could you pay that little bit more hopefully I'd get bits of bonuses I'd say every penny I can to then start building sites out um and doing some sort of like display ads for like informational terms with a I know um it's a it's very very easy to scale right in good quality content with the right prompts I I I can't stress you enough you have to do the right prompts if you don't know how to do the prompts you can't really use AI content because it's just gobble the go it's just like gen it's basically almost duplicated content with the right prompts you can write very good content even using bad or chat GPT um I'm an investor in um Auto blogging I don't if anyone sees it but like the growth that Julian Goldie and KRA and all these having I love that he just he crazy so you can scale out um like thousands of um Pages very quickly once I've got the money and I'm earning the money I just keep throwing it in building out the sites getting aut bloging get me a lots of like traffic coming through to the page i' then try and find different ways of monetizing them and I just build my portfolio back up but I'd be working in the background to try and earn my keep so I can pay for the kids and pay for the wife and be earning but then trying to reinvest as much as as I can um into scaling stuff out I'd probably stay away at present from the affiliate marketing business because I feel like there's a massive still to this day with a helpful content update I still feel it's a massive on the amount of outbound links that sites have with affiliate links Google I just combat in and just not liking so for now I'd stay away from it I'm not saying I'd always stay away from it I'd try to get back into it or I try to mix informational posts so let's say let's go back to the carpet cleaning example how to remove red wine from a carpet I then might be able to internal link to here's the best carpet cleaning here's the best carpet cleaners and then you might be able to sell affiliate kind of products even without your ranking for best carpet cleaners it's because your informational terms are kind of linking through to it or you can sell detergents and certain products that you can sell via affiliate via internal link traffic and I don't think people talk about enough about um Bing rankings and internal internal um link like traffic that you can get from ranking your informational terms which is also supplementary content to your money pages so try and build those out that easier to rank for get videos and get images on there and stuff like that which then obviously will help your main money Pages rank I think too many people try to start ranking for big terms without kind of going through the traffic aanch um SE Avalanche kind of method where you're working through your traffic tiers going after the easier ones to start with and then you can move onto your um affiliate kind of commission based pages I love the fact that you talked about reinvestment as well because I think that's key and clearly that's been a big driver in in you being able to scale and build this business and this Empire to what you have now is that and you you also talked about it with kazra as well obviously one of your partners who is is very very happy to rein invest a lot of his earnings into then growing and growing and growing and that and that's kind of how it works isn't it um that's that's fantastic change last question then final question uh if you had to give just one tip to be successful online what would it be we've already touched upon it so I'd say the networking side of things because the if you if you're even to the point right if you can't get up and you can't afford to go to places let's say like Cham or search birming m go to these events because you can't afford to get on a flight let's just say you can't afford to do to go to the events and you don't have the time you've got a full-time job right places like Twitter and YouTube right it don't cost you any money to be on there right so initially just to follow the right people and H what they're doing and retweet what they're doing and like a few of the videos and comment on the video saying oh really like this it get it starts to get you in a an online relationship now don't me wrong face to-face relationship is 10 times better than an online relationship but it starts to get you to do things let's say I've G to create a thumbnail go and comment on my thumbnail if you don't like it and you think you could make it better and if you if you're a graphic designer go and make me the thumbnail and say I've re I've just made you this thumbnail don't start saying I can generate thumbnails at $20 each and I don't know how good you are I'm just going to go delete like I get it 50 times a day or I can create you your YouTube shot so much better than the way that they're being made now no examples are not done one the the videos are there go and make me one and show it me of what you've done and uploaded it and and if I think it's better I might go wow I've got loads of work for you I really like that go if you do go and you have got someone and you can go to the events and you do want to speak to one of the people that you want to speak to let's say it's kazra go buy him a drink at the bar don't just come over and try and leverage his t give and you'll get back right go go and do nice things online go and reshare and go oh my God I'm I love Julian Gold's videos and share it on your Twitter and tag him in and he'll REM he remembers it and he remembers who you are he might even click on your website and start looking at what you're doing he might even say oh I can promote your product or service or your hosting or whatever it is that you're doing just go and be more active go and go and network it like like I said it might be online but roll up your sleeves and work hard because it's not going to be presented to you going oh I just want to be like him but you don't want to put the hours all the work in it's not easy entrepreneurship can be lonely if you let it be lonely but if you don't and you go out in your network then there's a lot of other people in the same boat as you that are on their upwood trajectory of where they want to be and you can do you can go on the journey with everybody else and enjoy the ride James I really biged you up at the start of this podcast and I'm glad I did because you delivered I think there's so much knowledge that you've shared there today and you've been very generous with your time you've certainly given us a lot today so thank you so much for that if people want to find out more about you and and find you where where can they do that so uh I've got James d.com so on there it got a few bits of what I do and then it's got links to all of my social media so I'm on like James unor doly on Twitter if you just searched basically James dly in uh Google you'll find like YouTube and stuff like that quite a bit more active at present on I'd say mainly Twitter and YouTube are the two main ones for M and maybe a little bit of LinkedIn the ones that I'm I'm doing it for work stuff for Facebook I probably won't add you or accept you it's mainly more for family and stuff like that and Instagram's a little bit more family but um Twitter and YouTube and linked in probably the main ones we make sure all those links are during the show notes so uh yeah absolutely fantastic thank you so much for coming on James it's always a pleasure and I'm sure we'll speak to you again soon it was a pleasure Jason.