Hello, nonprofit leaders. Welcome to your go to place for information and inspiration to help you be even more effective. I'm your host, Sarah Olivieri, and you are listening to Inspired Nonprofit Leadership. I have a very special guest today. It is Mary Hyland, the founder of this podcast. What you may not have heard before is that Mary, um, has over 40 years. of nonprofit sector experience, both as an executive director and a board member.
As an executive, she grew her nonprofit from 100, 000 to 26 million, leading two mergers. She has been consulting and coaching for 20 years, working with several hundred nonprofits. Mary is a speaker, published author, researcher, and a business professor at De Anza Community College. She is author of the best selling book, Love Your Board, The Executive Director's Guide to Discovering the Sources of Nonprofit Board Troubles and What to Do About Them.
published in 2021 and is a contributing author to four other non profit leadership and governance books. Mary's PhD focused on non profit leadership and governance. And she has three master's degrees in social work, public administration, and organizational development. Welcome, Mary. Um, I'm so excited to have you here as a guest.
I am so excited to be here, and I'm so excited for you, Sarah, and grateful for you for taking on The hosting of Inspired Nonprofit Leadership. It's been very exciting and great working with
Well, one of the things, the reason why I invited you on is I felt in this process. Of transitioning the podcast from you over to me, you and I, who both coach leaders in all things leadership, but in transition is one of the things that many leaders have to face at one point that you have so demonstrated all of the skills and mindset things involved with leading a great transition at the leadership level. And so I wanted to talk to you about that today.
But before we dive into that, will you tell us a little bit about yourself personally?
Oh, gee. Um, excuse me. I, um, I am married, been married for 25 years, my second husband. I have a beautiful daughter and two great stepchildren and I have six grandchildren. So that's a focus of Things for me personally, I'm very active in rotary. I am going to be incoming president in a year or so. So I've been involved with that for 28 years.
And that's sort of a place where I can volunteer contribute, do a lot of things, um, without having to pick 1 of my client nonprofits to work with, which doesn't really work very
Yep. Yep. I know how that goes. So let's dive in to transition. So, and I want to use today to talk about the transition of this podcast, but use it as a way for everybody to learn about leadership transitions. in general for your nonprofit. So my first question for you is how did you know that it was time to transition and kind of what did you do to prepare before you began the work of transitioning?
Okay, well, let me say that the knowing, I'm not sure you ever really know. So there's, it's like a continuum where you aren't even thinking about it. And then the other end of that continuum could be some sense of certainty, although I'm not sure you ever really get there. I think you do have to be willing to take a risk for change. I believe in calling and I believe in it because it's been my personal experience, not just for this transition, but other transitions in my life.
And I think the first thing that happens is you start to get this little feeling that maybe I want to do something different, or maybe this could be different, or maybe this should change. And I think that you have to work on and with that feeling. For a while, I journal, so I would write about it. Um, I even got to the point where I would talk to my coach about it. And speaking it out loud is a great strategy because when you speak it out loud, then you get different feelings about it.
So I think it's the combination of recognizing how you're feeling, being open. trusting that, but knowing that you're not going to be, it's not going to be consistent all the time. You're going to have some ups and downs. You're going to feel ambivalent one day or the next. In terms of preparing, I think that at some point you do commit.
to change. And I, I can't tell you exactly when that was for this, but that's when you start to prepare is, is when you start to take one step at a time, what do I need to do first? How do I think about this? One of the things I did is I reached out to my podcast coach, the person who helped me found the podcast and do all the technical stuff and said, How do you think about this? How do I end? At that time, I thought maybe it was just gonna end. the podcast. He said, well, don't do that.
He said, you can transition it so you can get a new owner, a new host. So that's one of the first things is you have to figure out, okay, what am I going to do? What is it going to take and the steps for
I think you brought up some really good points. I think one thing I see holding nonprofit leaders back from transitions is they think they're gonna feel certain. And you've really like hit the nail on the head. Like at a certain point you have to take a risk and dive in and do something you're not totally sure about. Any tips for folks on dealing with those mindset gremlins of uncertainty, uh, as they pop up in those early stages of, uh, do I feel ready?
Am I ready to make this decision to change?
Well, I think one of the really important ones is to get out of your head. Because while you do want to think, one tip is you do need to think about pros and cons. You do want to think about the future. What will this mean for me if I don't do this anymore? Um, what, do I want something instead or do I just need a break? You know, so you understand what's going to be different as much as you can in thinking about it.
But then the other tip is to, as you go through and as you maybe take the first step, you need to reflect and be in touch with, how am I feeling about this? Does this feel good? Does this feel yucky? Um, you know, and I think it's that balance between thinking and anticipating and preparing. You don't go into these things mindless, but you go into them mindfully. And I think that that's that.
balance of thinking things through, talking to other people eventually, uh, appropriately about it and getting some feedback. And maybe people will ask you some questions you hadn't thought about, but always, always being in touch with your gut. How does this feel to
Yeah, that's so, so key. I know on my end, you know, you approached me and I had to go, I went through almost the identical process, right? So first I had to be like, Oh, well, how's it going to feel, um, running a podcast, right? How's it going to feel? running Mary's podcast, the Inspired Nonprofit Leadership podcast. I went and talked to some people, some mentors who know more about podcasts and podcast transitions.
I went to, um, someone who's helped me get on many podcasts and has done that for many people and asked them, Oh, well. What do you think about this transition? What should I ask? Right? Because you don't know what you don't know and you're doing something new. Um, so, so helpful to go to people who have done it before.
Um, and then I also, I really sat with it and I sat and the, the, so my, my questions for myself were, you know, do I, do I have the bandwidth and time, or can I make that available? Cause now I'm on the receiving end of adding something new rather than the letting go process. Do I feel really good about that? And one of the ways, just like you say, and we have to kind of try things on, is I went and binge listened to many episode of the podcast.
And as I was doing it, I was putting myself in those shoes. You know, how is this going to feel? And that's once I had the, okay, technically I know how I can make the bat bandwidth to take this on. And emotionally and in my head, I know I can now tell that this is going to feel right. It's going to feel good. And then that balance piece of saying, I'm not going to know everything before I can decide.
At some point I'm just going to have to decide and accept that I have the capability to figure, figure the rest of the unknowns out and not overthink it like you said.
Yeah. Yep. That's right. Yes.
So tell me, um, as you know, there's kind of like the messy middle nuts and bolts of transition, um, And I, I can imagine that can evoke a new set of experiences as you, you've decided to do it and now you're actually in the middle or I think there's always some mess in transition.
right.
So what, what is that experience and especially what do you want nonprofit leaders to know about that middle section of transition?
Well, I think there's a couple of things. One is it depends on, uh, the first thing that came to mind was I was transitioning to somebody. So one of the benefits, uh, was that you had questions, you had requests of me for some things I hadn't even anticipated. So that's always be sure you're open to hearing, uh, how somebody else wants to help make this work for them if they're directly involved or are going to be affected in some way. So that's very important.
So man, in managing expectations around that and clarifying what you can do or what you can't do. In the transition, so I think managing expectations in nonprofits, particularly whenever a leader is transitioning, there's a lot of people affected by that. So think through that and think through, uh, the next stage of that, I think, is your communication. Another part of managing expectations, of course, is communicating and think about how are you talking about it?
Uh, what might be confidential? Um, at the time we're recording this, we haven't done a big public announcement, but we're sure going to do that, but that's something we had to work out together, and I think that's really true in nonprofits for change and transitions. Communication is one of the most important things. How, who, what.
When, think through all of that, and again, I think you need to be mindful, aware of how you're being affected, um, and don't just try to stuff things, just, you know, deal with them and figure out how to manage them and be open, be open to learning about what you're doing right in the process and what you may be. Not doing so well. So, that's important. I think all those things are part of that going through
absolutely.
experience.
You know, I think, um, you know, from my end, uh, you know, you exhibited just textbook perfect transition skills. One thing you did not exhibit was any hint of founder's syndrome, which we know is out there. And I'm sure you have dealt with, um, in your four decades at
Yes. Absolutely.
we just go there for a moment? And because I think, Founders syndrome, at least we're, we're as consultants hear about it. We hear founders who are like, yes, I think I'm ready to change. Like in their head, they're ready. And then they start getting into the doing, into the middle part. And then they're like, Oh, maybe I want to pull back. So, um, and you may have had those symptoms. feelings even in this process at some point, but you didn't let them impact the change.
So I'm wondering what, either in this process or your experience, um, what you, what message you have for those founders who might have those moments of, maybe I should pull back. Maybe I'm handing off to the wrong person. Maybe I thought I was going to hand off all this stuff and now I only want to hand in a little. I want to keep my hands in it because I'm nervous about what's going to happen on the other side.
Well, that's a really interesting question, Sarah, because I think what comes to mind here in the moment is it's about that emotional transition and have you made it? Because I think that in some experiences I've seen, people are making decisions to transition that they don't want to let go of, and they haven't recognized. That they need to let go and when they're telling other people they're ready to let go and they're not it means to me. They are ignoring the feeling side of the process.
They are not reflecting enough. They're not giving themselves enough time. They're not getting in touch with their own. Why? Why do I want to do this? What are the pros and cons? What are the benefits to me of letting go of this? And if they can get clear about their why and their benefits, then they, I think they can let go.
I've seen, uh, executives make this transition in very constructive, positive ways where they actually mentored In constructive ways, the leader that was coming in behind them, but not to dominate or take over, but constantly in the thinking and the context of I'm releasing, I'm letting go and you, the person who's doing it, taking over have to be empowered. To do your own thing and put your own print or stamper. I'm not
No, the, the, the outgoing leader has to be comfortable emotionally with that. It part of the transition, the thing that you're transitioning is going to evolve. It's not going to stay exactly the same. And that's part of the benefit and part of the challenge of transition. It's not going to be exactly the same. After it's a more metamorphosis, not a just passing off exactly one
Right. Well, And in our case, I didn't assume at the beginning, I think that's also something you've got to be careful about is what assumptions are you making? That comes back to the comment I made about expectations. But I didn't assume that you wanted to keep the name the same, although that probably makes sense because of the legacy of it. But there were a lot of things that you have not changed, at least right this minute, that you can change. And I know.
You can change them and you may change them into the future. Um, but I was almost surprised about how not as much, um, which in some ways feels good because it feels like it's a good legacy and and you see value in it. But also, um, I think that. It's it is that timing that you can't just think, oh, nothing's going to change in a leadership transition in a nonprofit. Well, maybe for 6 months, it's not going to change, but it'll change because it's a different person. The world is different.
Things are going to influence people differently.
to
So you have to
And in my experience in this process, um, you know, I didn't not change things because I was nervous. It was a very intentional decision because when I evaluated what's really working here, I saw so much working. And I really was thinking about you all who are listening, What will serve you best? And a lot of the potential changes I could make would be more about me and my ego and less about you. There is so much here.
That is helping you and that is my goal is to continue to keep everything and if I can add something To help you more I'll do that But I have you know really come into this the way I felt you started this which was out of service to the community And that's the piece that I was like, that's what i'm taking over is a benefit to the community And that's where I need to keep the focus, which is
Well, and I think that's a critical point for leaders in transition is that it is again a balance between what's about you and your personal journey because you don't want to deny that you have to acknowledge that. But. What you are the leader of an organization that's of service in some way, and keeping that mission, keeping that purpose in mind. That's the part of the why that is so important. And I love that. You looked at what worked and I appreciate that.
That you evaluated that because you know when you're in it, you don't necessarily see those things and you don't get the benefit. You may think things are working, but it isn't until somebody else steps in and looks. So I really appreciate that. But in a nonprofit executive transition, there may be things that aren't
that's right.
that need to be changed. And you need to be open
That's right
You need to be
Well, let's take a moment, um, to hear from our sponsor, but then we'll come back and hear what's on the, the outgoing end, the tail end of Transition. Um, today's episode is being brought to you by Pivot Ground, which I created to assist people like you. Executive directors, board members, and nonprofit leaders. I want to help you unleash your full potential to advance the mission that I know you care about so deeply.
I like to say that I have succeeded when achieving your mission is your greatest challenge. I've been an executive director, just like you and just like Mary, a board member, and now I'm a consultant and coach. I know your challenges firsthand and I want to bring you information, inspiration, encouragement, and support. My gift for you today is a newsletter where you will receive weekly tips for nonprofit leaders just like you. You can go to pivotground.
com forward slash sign up to access the free newsletter. There'll also be a link in the show notes. So let's return to our conversation with Inspired Nonprofit Leadership founder, Mary Hyland. We're talking about leadership transitions. And so let's talk about what happens on the kind of third phase, because I think so often people think that like, Oh, We passed it to the new person and now the transition is over, but it's definitely not.
Right. So tell us Mary, what happens in this third phase of transition?
Well, I have to say, Sarah, I didn't think about this until you brought this question up. I think in some ways, um, this still feels like I'm in it, because this feels like this is still part of wrapping up and the ability to tell the story and have this first episode conversation with you is such a gift. I'm very grateful for that. But I also think, again, being in touch with feelings is as you're letting go of things, as I'm transitioning all of the nuts and bolts stuff that you know about.
We don't need to bring that up to our listeners, but there's a lot of nuts and bolts things in the background that you need to wrap up and change and accounts and all that kind of stuff. And I think that as I'm letting go, there is this period of Openness a sense of now what, um, with this time and of course, I did have a lot of ideas and a list and things that I want to do. But I think there is, uh, for me, there's a sense of celebration because this was really the right thing for me to do.
And I'm crystal clear about that. I guess at this point, I have maybe that certainty. I didn't have at the beginning, but, um. I think because of that, I realize that there's going to be new things that will come, that I've created a space, I believe in this, I believe that for new things to come to us, uh, for even ideas, that's why we need to be quiet, we need to take time to take action. Just be quiet so that things can come to us. Things can come as ideas, experiences.
And so I think I'm, I'm looking forward to this opening. Welcoming time, um, which may not this would not be the same for an executive director, making a transition into a new job. Um, I am working on creating a new program for executives on board engagement, and I'm going to call it board engagement success. And so I have not been able to get to that. So. There are things that you're going to fill up that space with, and I think you want to be purposeful about that.
But I, I'm not sure if that's the answer you
The No, no right or wrong answer, I think, um, and especially for f you know, if you're an executive director, like you said, going onto a new job, you're actually doing two transitions, right? , you're transitioning out of one, and then you're gonna be on the other side transitioning into one. But if you're a founder, I encourage you to do what Mary's doing is take a moment to intentionally allow the void to be there for a moment.
You know, don't try, don't try to cram the next thing in before you've even had. That moment and be prepared. You know, I think what you're exemplifying for everybody is you've done the mindset work through the whole journey, but for those who might not have those mindset skills and are still going through the transition anyway, especially if you're a founder, you might need that void.
To process, because a void could feel like any or all of celebration, grief, emptiness, joy, you know, you might start to see the changes in the thing that you were doing before, and it might hit you then, oh, like this is like, I thought I was ready for the changes, but now that I see them. You might have to process more. So I think holding that space is really important. So really great, great answer there.
Um, and at what do you feel are the benefits of having being on, well, I guess when you get through this next phase, what are the benefits going to be to transitioning something?
Well, I think, for me, there's a sense of, because I feel so right about it, there's a sense of energy. Mm Uh, new energy, a sense of renewal, uh, as you think about that next step, what is that going to be? Uh, a sense of opportunity there. That's the excitement part for me is, is I have this sense that it's, things are going to be different. And as they are, what new is going to come? So I, all those things, anticipation, um, renewed energy.
Those are hard to come by when you're not making a change or a transition. Um, of course, there are ways to build. Energy renewal. I mean, I've talked about that. I have, uh, a weekly planner for executives about that, but it's different when you're letting go of something that took up space in your life because there's a time factor and. I would just, like you said, don't, don't rush to fill it up, but one of the benefits of doing it is that you have that opportunity.
And being intentional, I love that you said that, is a really important part of that. To recognize that you want to be intentional, um, but open
you know,
and trust the
on the receiving end of the transition, I'm now adding, right, something new intentionally, but I'm also being intentional about holding space. So for example, I've taken some few days and just blocked out large chunks of time and just call it hold for podcast because, and I, I might be doing stuff that I didn't expect or I might just be. adjusting to, you know, it's a bit of a new schedule, new things that need to happen, new processes. I have some team members helping me.
They may need some support. And so I'm just blocking out more than I think I actually need, but I haven't scheduled it as any one particular thing. It's to deal with
Oh,
the surprise tasks and just the headspace, right? As you're adding something new in, you're digesting. It's not routine yet and you need extra. space. So even though it's different activities, it's still very holding space for something new. And I think that holds anybody in any transition needs to carve out some extra space and hold that intentionally
Yes. Yes, good for you. Exactly.
we're almost at time, but I want to address an elephant in the room that I didn't prepare you for, but I feel like. I have heard some, so we've talked a lot about what we've each done on our own ends. And then there was quite a bit of collaborative work of, you know, the transitioning, which it seemed work was very helpful on my end, right? And, and made for a pretty smooth transition overall, at least from my experience. But I hear sometimes.
Specifically for like executive trend director transition, um, boards being given the advice that the current exec outgoing executive director should have no, not be involved in the selection process at all. And it should just be like ripping off a bandaid. One goes out and one comes in and there's like almost no communication. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are about that.
Well, I have to say I'm, I'm biased because when I left my CEO job, uh, and stepped out into the world again, feeling called to do something, but in that case, I didn't know what it was. Um, I was involved, but. I was, of course, leaving of my own choice. I had been successful, frankly, very successful in my role, and the board wanted to tap into that. But again, and this comes back to being mindful and aware of change, we agreed ahead of time.
Number one, I wasn't going to be involved in the decision in any way. I was going to help make some, uh, recommendations or some observation input. Into the decision. So I think that's an important distinction. And I think the other thing is that I. wanted to help the board think through what were the characteristics that I have that maybe they needed to retain, they wanted to retain, but then what are new things that you want in the new executive and sorting that through.
And I think that was about me being able to let go and wanting to let go and caring about my legacy, but. Knowing that a new person coming in provides a new opportunity for a next phase. And so I think I'm going off a little bit on this question of why be involved, but I think a lot depends on the executives temperament experience and their attitude about what their role is in that process. If they're going to be involved, I don't think they should be involved in the decision part.
Um, then I think the 2nd. Part would be, is there a role for the executive as needed to be called in? But I don't think the executive should expect to be looking over the shoulder of the new person to be to expect to be the mentor of choice. Maybe there's another mentor, um, there are opportunities for you to support the success of the new person, but you need to be invited. to do that and not feel bad if you don't get asked.
Yeah.
I think that's important.
I, I, I think you've really highlighted all the key things for people. I think, you know, in my own experience, and I, I haven't had to do that kind of transition, so I'm not biased. Just in, in seeing situations, I've seen a lot of transitions. I've often been on the tail end of maybe botched ones, more than anything.
Right. As
But I am, um, totally with you. Well, I think to, to sum it up is that if the executive outgoing leader, whether it's an executive director or not, is doing that emotional work that we've really touched on in this episode, then it is really beneficial for them to have some involvement, like you said, in providing. key information and you have exemplified it perfectly. Like our nuts and bolts transition part was, but mostly. me asking, right? Can I get this? Can I get that? And you providing.
Um, and I think if that can happen effectively, because like you said, the outgoing leader isn't trying to direct, it's almost like you stop directing, but start providing being a resource, um, earlier on in the transition. And it is helpful when you're like, Oh, do you want this? Do you want that? Right? Cause you might not know what to ask for as the incoming leader. Um, but the incoming leader really needs to start the directing, the leading, like kind of right away.
Um, and I think it's really, you know, truly if an outgoing leader is not there emotionally and isn't doing that work, yes, it could make sense to kind of have that rip off the band aid. But I would just like to highlight from today in our conversation how much. That mindset work is both for you, the leaders in transition, but it's also, it's better for the organization if you can both be there with that mindset and actually collaborate in that process.
I think it has a better result if it can be done well, like you've shared.
Yes. Yes, totally agree.
Well, Mary, how can folks get in touch with you if they want to continue following your work and getting all the good stuff that you have to offer people, which is certainly not ending.
That's true. Um, 2 ways. Well, my website is out there. Highlandconsulting. org and that's spelled H. I. L. A. N. D. Highlandconsulting. org. Excuse me. And feel free to email me. It's okay to just reach out directly. Mary, M A R Y, at HighlandConsulting. org And I'm on LinkedIn. I'm trying to do a little better there. But, um, best way is to just reach out directly if you have a question. I'm happy to chat with you. you about anything. Uh, see if I can help and be a resource.
So thank you for asking that,
Wonderful. And we'll put that information in the show notes as well. Any final words before we close out?
Only to say, uh, well, not only, I guess I said a lot. Uh, I want to thank you, Sarah, not only for the opportunity for this episode, but for being the champion of this legacy for me, uh, carrying this forward and being who you are. You are a perfect fit. That's one thing we didn't talk a lot about in transitions is to feel that the fit is right. And there are so many ways that this fit is right. for us, and for me particularly.
And I also want to thank all of you listeners out there, and keep listening. And I'm just so grateful that you've all been there and reached out when you could, and also, um, made Inspired Nonprofit Leader the success that it has been, and I know it will be, uh, with Sarah's leadership. So, thank you. To everybody.
you, Mary. It has really been my honor and my pleasure to take on this new journey for me, ongoing journey for all of you listeners, and to have you as my first guest. And thank you for all of you listening. Um, and take care of yourselves. Take time for self care. Take time for emotional and mindset work and be sure to subscribe and listen in to the next episode of Inspired Nonprofit Leadership. Until then, all the best.