Episode 104: James Beck works with an organisation called A Rocha Aotearoa NZ ( https://arocha.org.nz/ ) which is a Christian environmental conservation organisation. In this conversation we discuss the trajectory of his spirituality and work, especially how and why he made intentional choices to move away from the up-and-coming charismatic preacher kind of life, to become someone who instead is pouring his energy into environmental care, both in his own faith community and also in helping to cu...
Jun 08, 2025•1 hr 11 min•Ep. 104
Episode 103: Shane has recovered from his table-saw inflicted injury and is back to continue our conversation reflecting on the journey to 100 episodes of the pod - and more specifically, on where our spirituality, theology and meaning-making is heading. We tackle the slightly contentious phrase "reconstruction", what we might or might not find helpful about that idea, and reflect on what is shaping us as we move forward. In that sense, this felt like an energising conversation that was able to ...
May 18, 2025•57 min•Ep. 103
Episode 102: One of the predominant causes of our problematic relationship with the environment is the belief that humans are superior over, distinct from and independent to the rest of nature. We think this way partly due to our religious traditions that have understood humans as being at the centre of what God cares about, at the centre of the story of creation, and that salvation is ultimately all about us and our relationship with God. We're also shaped by our modern assumptions that put us ...
May 05, 2025•47 min•Ep. 102
Episode 101: This is the first in a series of 4 episodes exploring the intersection of spirituality and a response to the climate crisis. This reflection explores how Christians have often thought about the 'end of the world' and how this so often shapes behaviours and attitudes toward our ecological systems and how we treat them. Some theological views of the future claim that things will get dark before the end, and Christians will be whisked away to heaven to escape the destruction of this pl...
Apr 21, 2025•59 min•Ep. 101
Episode 100: This is it! We've gone and done it. We've made it to episode 100... and this means that we've ascended the mountain of success and significance and will finally get all the credit and recognition we deserve! Actually... it means none of that. But for this episode Shane Meyer-Holt interviews me (Michael) about the journey of the past few years, how I've changed since I started In the Shift - both in belief and approach - and the personal impact of this kind of journey. I hope that th...
Mar 20, 2025•1 hr 4 min•Ep. 100
Episode 99: In the Shift is back for 2025 - and we kick off this year's pod by looking at what is going on in the world right now. In many respects, the social, political and economic disruption we're experiencing is a natural consequence of the trajectory we've been on for a number of years - and is also connected to particular religious frameworks, beliefs and assumptions. Hyper-individualism, growing inequality, fears and uncertainties, authoritarianism, fascist (or at least fascist-adjacent)...
Feb 23, 2025•43 min•Ep. 99
Episode 98: Thomas Jay Oord joins the pod for a great conversation on how we might start to think about God in the wake of deconstruction. We talk about his and Tripp Fuller's 2024 book "God After Deconstruction" and discuss the different intersecting factors that lead to deconstruction and how and why there might still be a place for God on the other side. For those still left with the God-question, with a wondering about ultimate reality, with a sense of something 'more', this conversation exp...
Dec 11, 2024•1 hr 29 min•Ep. 98
Episode 97: This episode explores the language of faithfulness to the way of love (of self, neighbour, other and enemy) along with the subversion of "power over" as being at the core of a certain kind of Christian spirituality. There's a contrast between this and the language of the church creeds - these creeds are statements about belief that have often defined Christian orthodoxy and have been used as boundary markers for Christian identity. But the creeds carry no mention of Jesus' vision of ...
Nov 18, 2024•43 min•Ep. 97
Episode 96: This conversation explores what it might mean to make meaning on the other side of Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism. As we "leave" one world behind (even as we carry many aspects of it with us - both seen and unseen), do we enter the 'real' world or is there no neutral space? What kind of world do we want to build, what values shape our engagement with the fundamental questions of what it is to be here, of the kind of life we might want to live, our relatedness to the divine and so on. ...
Oct 24, 2024•1 hr 5 min•Ep. 96
Episode 95: This episode explores what can happen to our identity formation and our sense of being in the world when we live in a world built on the assumption that the apocalypse, the return of Jesus, and the end-of-the-world is likely to happen within our lifetime. What happens to our ability to be confident in ourselves, to think about the future, to make wise decisions, to care for the earth and justice, and to live with a deep sense of grounded-ness? And then there is so much about end-time...
Oct 02, 2024•45 min•Ep. 95
Episode 94: Continuing our conversations around the world-building of our Evangelical/Pentecostal past, in this episode we examine the idea of depravity, sin and brokenness as being at the heart of humanness. What does this belief say about our fundamental identity, and how might that influence our sense of self as well as our relationship to God and others? We also explore the role that testimony plays within this world. Testimonies are often stories that uphold and promote the version of reali...
Sep 03, 2024•1 hr 20 min•Ep. 94
Episode 93: In this episode we use the framework of 'world-building' (like we see in literature) as a way to start thinking about Evangelical/Pentecostal assumptions about reality and how they shape us. In particular we look at a world that is built on a high-demand God who needs to be pleased through obedience and sacrifice and the problems that arise with all of this. There was something so potent about this world as we understood it - it gave us confidence we were on the 'right' side, it prov...
Aug 14, 2024•1 hr 33 min•Ep. 93
Episode 92: In this conversation we explore a central theme of many Evangelical/Pentecostal/Charismatic approaches to parenting over the past few decades - namely, "obedience." We discuss the ways that obedience and compliance stem from the theological paradigm that views children born as corrupted sinners along with the looming threat of hell as eternal suffering for those outside the faith. In this context, obedience and compliance become central to parenting and discipleship, and in forming s...
Jul 28, 2024•1 hr 31 min•Ep. 92
Episode 91: In this conversation we explore the questions that come up for us around faith and parenting and how we approach the process of discussing spirituality with our kids. For many folk who have experienced some kind of shifting or deconstructing faith, this can feel complicated or come with feelings of pressure. What should I be telling my kids? What happens if they ask a question but I don't have a concrete answer? Can (or should) I pass on the good without also passing on the bad? Shou...
Jun 17, 2024•1 hr 31 min•Ep. 91
Episode 90: This episode is a follow-up to our previous episode (89) about navigating relationships post-deconstruction, and this time Shane Meyer-Holt does the interviewing! He talks here with Jane Kennedy (a counsellor who works in the field of religious trauma) about the gender and power dynamics that are at play within high-demand/high-control religious communities, and in particular she reflects on the ways in which patriarchal systems - both explicitly and implicitly - impact on what it me...
May 27, 2024•48 min•Ep. 90
Episode 89: In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt, we discuss the complexities of navigating relationships with those from our 'past' when we've undergone some kind of fundamental faith transition. How do we negotiate what happens when we change, when the version of ourselves that people are used to relating to has shifted, and what are the complex intersections that collide when we seek to take up authentic space in the world?
May 14, 2024•1 hr 16 min•Ep. 89
Episode 88: After a podcast hiatus, the first episode of 2024 is here! In this episode I talk through my own reflections on what it means to make some kind of 'peace' with the past - especially as it relates to a past of harmful religious beliefs and communities. This can be a complex journey, even more so when this has impacted the very core of identity formation and important relationships in our lives. This is not about moving on and forgetting, but about continuing to make space for what we ...
Apr 17, 2024•37 min•Ep. 88
Episode 87: In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt joins me for the final episode of 2023. This episode is an unplanned departure from our series on experience and comes after an unexpected hiatus with the podcast too. In this personal, raw, and wandering conversation, we talk through why we’ve not had an episode out in the past couple of months amidst the complexity of life and the presence of suffering and profound challenge. We also talk through the demands of hustle culture and how we care for ea...
Dec 18, 2023•1 hr 39 min•Ep. 87
Episode 86: In this conversation, Shane and I discuss the paradigms for experiencing God we used to hold and the theological shape of those paradigms. This led to a lot of energy being expended in trying to create the right conditions for 'experience', and an unspoken set of 'signs' that these experiences were being had - something that created a set of problems that we both found problematic in our life and spirituality. We then explore the ways we think about God now, how we see the God-world ...
Oct 16, 2023•1 hr 24 min•Ep. 86
Episode 85: Olivia Jackson is the researcher and author of the recently published book, "(Un)Certain: A Collective Memoir of Deconstructing Faith". In this book, Olivia draws together insights and themes from more than 140 interviews of people from around the world whose Christian faith has gone through a process of deconstruction. The range of experiences, stories and reflections from "regular people" (i.e. people without large churches, book deals, social media followings, or other forms of po...
Sep 26, 2023•1 hr 14 min•Ep. 85
Episode 84: In this second conversation on the complicated world of 'experiencing God', we explore the ways in which all experience is mediated, and so the meaning is thereby a matter (to some degree) of interpretation. We examine the role that suggestibility plays in certain forms of experience, and chat about the unhelpful ideas of 'spiritual hunger' or 'desperation/expectation' as keys to divine presence, and whether particular songs are 'anointed'. We also reflect on the ways we think about ...
Aug 28, 2023•1 hr 19 min•Ep. 84
Episode 83: In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt we dive into the complicated world of understanding experiences of God. For some, particular kinds of experiences with God are central to their spirituality, to feelings of closeness with God, to a sense of meaning and purpose. And yet for others, the attempt to impose certain forms of experience have resulted in harm and even trauma. Some have never 'felt' what they've been told they're supposed to feel, have never sensed God in the way tha...
Aug 02, 2023•1 hr 32 min•Ep. 83
Episode 82: Dr Karen O'Donnell is a specialist in theology and trauma. In this conversation we explore the nature of trauma and, in particular, we reflect on spiritual trauma and abuse and the ruptures it can cause to the embodied person. The field of trauma theology seeks to take the experience of trauma as a starting point for theological reflection - both in terms of critiquing the ways in which theological beliefs can cause harm, and also in terms of constructing theologies that can create r...
Jul 11, 2023•1 hr 43 min•Ep. 82
Episode 81: Marc Fennell is the force behind the new SBS documentary, "The Kingdom". It is a doco that explores the rise and fall of Hillsong Church in Australia (and around the globe), but that also asks harder and more nuanced questions of the wider pentecostal megachurch systems and structures that have grown so rapidly in recent decades. This form of Christianity clearly appeals so deeply to so many, and yet can also grow on the back of coercion and abuse of power that often leads to burn ou...
Jun 20, 2023•1 hr 18 min•Ep. 81
Episode 80: This is a first for In the Shift - a reissue of an older conversation! But in light of more stories, documentaries, investigations and interrogations of the megachurch story here in NZ, Australia and across the world in recent months, we thought it might be helpful to reissue the first podcast episode on our megachurch series - originally aired as Episode 55 in April 2022. Shane and I began talking about this because we both had history in these spaces, and there were stories hitting...
Jun 12, 2023•1 hr 13 min•Ep. 80
Episode 79: Amanda Pilbrow works in the space of helping support LGBTQIA+ folk in the church, as well as working with churches, pastors, ministry leaders and others to go on the journey to become fully affirming of queer folk in the church. She is the facilitator of the website www.alreadyenough.co.nz which is a sorting house for a vast range of resources in relation to this conversation. In this episode we talk about her journey as a young woman growing up within very conservative traditionalis...
Jun 05, 2023•1 hr 18 min•Ep. 79
Episode 78: This episode is a live recording from an event called "Reframing Easter" held in March of this year. Here I talk through my understanding of how the Easter story fits within the wider historical, cultural, political and religious context of its day. The imperial power of Rome, the backdrop of suffering for the Jewish people, religious leadership and belief being used in the jostling for power, status and control, and the tense and very real potential for a violent revolution. Jesus l...
May 17, 2023•1 hr 7 min•Ep. 78
Episode 77: One of the common themes of our recent conversations has been how churches have been able to co-opt Christian language and ideas and use them to enforce power, to gaslight victims, and to justify their actions as God-approved. This can often leave victims feeling confused, isolated and ashamed. This episode is a theological exploration of how the language of sin/repentance and blessing/empowerment is used in the biblical narrative in the almost entirely opposite direction to how we s...
May 04, 2023•51 min•Ep. 77
Episode 76: Shane Meyer-Holt returns to the podcast, and this time he brings his church notebook from the nineties! One of the things we’ve heard a lot over the past year is “how can people stay in these toxic communities for so long?” or even more troubling can be the question “why did I stay so long?”. We explore an old sermon by a charismatic American preacher we both heard when we were young and use it as a case study in how religious language can be used to condition people to a coercive sy...
Apr 03, 2023•1 hr 27 min•Ep. 76
Episode 75: In the first episode of 2023, I (Michael) spend some time reflecting on the stories of the past year but in particular on the most recently published article by journalist David Farrier about church harm and toxicity in more NZ megachurches - a story that prominently features the church in which I spent around 13 years of my life - both as a participant, and also on staff for around 8 years. In this episode I unpack as honestly as I can the feelings that come up in this whole convers...
Mar 08, 2023•40 min•Ep. 75
