Episode 74: Carly Lahana and Shane Meyer-Holt are back for another round of Q & A! In this episode we respond to a range of listener questions on faith deconstruction, personal spirituality, church structures and systems, and some practical questions about what is possible in church life. These questions include: What do you do when all your beliefs start to unravel? How not to become "bitter"? What are some blind spots in the deconstructing community? Why are we still Christian? (why not ju...
Dec 05, 2022•1 hr 35 min•Ep. 74
Episode 73: Dr Hillary McBride is a therapist, researcher, writer and speaker who brings a remarkable combination of expertise, insight and empathy to this conversation about spiritual trauma. We talk about why spiritual trauma is so potent, how it is experienced and held in our bodies, how negative religious attitudes toward our bodies can stifle our awareness of what needs to change and of the healing we may need, and how to move toward healing and re-integration. Hillary's most recent book is...
Nov 08, 2022•54 min•Ep. 73
Episode 72: David Farrier is a journalist, documentary maker, podcaster, and the author of online newsletter Webworm. Throughout 2022, David’s investigative work on Arise Church - one of New Zealand’s largest megachurches - brought to light a toxic culture that included numerous allegations of burn out, abuse of power, toxicity and the covering up of claims of sexual harassment and assault. David’s work also opened up a larger public conversation about megachurches (and toxic church cultures in ...
Oct 23, 2022•1 hr 16 min•Ep. 72
Episode 71: This is the 2nd part of a conversation with Meg Cowan - sex and relationships coach. In this episode we talk about understanding our own sexuality, and how to find healthy ways of moving forward beyond the binaries of purity culture. We discuss the five circles of sexuality - intimacy, identity, sensuality, health & reproduction, and sexualisation. And we talk through some of the big issues in processing through and healing from purity culture, including attachments and soul ties...
Oct 17, 2022•55 min•Ep. 71
Episode 70: Meg Cowan is a sex and relationships coach who specialises in helping people process through the impact of purity culture. In this conversation we talk about how purity culture (understood as the cultural movement in Evangelical/Pentecostal Christianity that emerges in reaction to the rapid social and moral changes that took place in the 1960s and 1970s) has impacted views on and experiences of sex, embodiment and relationships in the church. We discuss the ways in which men and wome...
Oct 09, 2022•56 min•Ep. 70
Episode 69: Katelyn Beaty is the author of the recently published book “Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms and Profits are Hurting the Church”. We talk here about the nature of celebrity vs fame, and how celebrity pastors and ministers have come to take centre stage in the Evangelical/Pentecostal church. As celebrity pastors have flourished, their churches have become mirrors for their own ego. This leads to numerous problems including a lack of accountability, the abuse of power, th...
Sep 28, 2022•1 hr 19 min•Ep. 69
Episode 68: In this episode I'm joined by Jess Holdaway (who you may remember from ep 61) and also by Shalomy Sathiyaraj as we talk about their experience as young women within the megachurch space. We discuss the idealised characteristics of a "Christian woman", the dynamics of gender and power, the impact of purity culture, and the way in which hyper-feminine and hyper-masculine constructs lead to such unhealthy and harmful consequences. Shalomy also speaks to her experience as a young woman o...
Sep 20, 2022•1 hr 33 min•Ep. 68
Episode 67: In this episode I speak with Frank Ritchie, a Wesleyan Methodist minister, media chaplain, and author of a recent " theological and cultural reflection ", written in response to the Arise Church situation but that also speaks to the wider (mega)church conversations about the significant harm caused by unhealthy faith communities. We talk about the allure of power within the church, the lack of substance inherent in the 'church growth' paradigm, and the challenges that face the church...
Sep 08, 2022•1 hr 19 min•Ep. 67
Episode 66: In this episode Shane and I are joined by new contributor Carly Lahana, as we discuss your questions on all things deconstruction, doubt, and megachurches. Can I deconstruct without losing hope? How do I even begin to deconstruct? Can I stay in a church if I no longer agree with their theology? Are megachurches open to change as a result of recent conversations? Are megachurches capable of this change?
Aug 28, 2022•1 hr 9 min•Ep. 66
Episode 65: In this conversation we discuss what possibilities exist for re-imagining leadership and the role of a pastor when the "guru", or the "man with the plan" models have failed us. The "pastor as expert/authority in everything" model can treat congregations in an overly paternalistic and controlling manner, as well as fostering a level of pressure and expectation that can lead to personal dysfunction for the leader themselves. As alternatives we discuss the possibility of collaborative m...
Aug 09, 2022•1 hr 17 min•Ep. 65
Episode 64: In this episode we talk about what movement toward health might look like in toxic megachurch (or any church) spaces. Building on our discussions over the past few months we explore the possibility of an open-handed community, a movement away from coercion, about the conflict that often occurs between health and growth, about the importance of focusing not only the individual failings that can lead to abuse, but the systemic and structural issues that need to change in order to see r...
Jul 31, 2022•1 hr 38 min•Ep. 64
Episode 63: In this episode I'm joined by Shane Meyer-Holt as we explore the problems that emerge when we're convinced that we're "the good guys" (we realise this phrase is gendered, but we felt it reflected the patriarchal nature of many of these systems). If we believe that we have the answers that everybody needs, that we're uniquely called to rescue, save and bring light to a dark world, then we often become unable to see the ways in which we might be participating in harm. We talk about why...
Jul 10, 2022•1 hr 11 min•Ep. 63
Episode 62: In this episode Shane Meyer-Holt joins me again for an analysis of megachurch “doublespeak”. Doublespeak is what we’re calling the use of language that sounds good on the surface (and can in fact be used in really healthy ways) but is being used to coerce, manipulate, control and gaslight people. It’s where a word like “capacity” is being used to mean “suppress your emotional and physical wellbeing”. Or where “doing it in God’s strength” means to stop paying attention to the importan...
Jun 25, 2022•1 hr 37 min•Ep. 62
Episode 61: In this episode Michael has a conversation with narrative therapist Nicole Conner and megachurch survivor Jess Holdaway. Jess speaks of her journey through the megachurch, the impact on her body and her experience of trauma, as we weave in and out of a wider discussion on religious trauma, abuse of power and burn-out. They share reflections on institutional and religious gaslighting, how to know if you're in an abusive or toxic community, the signs of trauma, and some ways forward fo...
Jun 05, 2022•1 hr 40 min•Ep. 61
Episode 60: In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt and I continue talking about megachurches and toxic church cultures. We focus this conversation on the "creep", which is what happens when things change incrementally over time from the 'mild' toward something really unhealthy, coercive or toxic. But because this change happens slowly, over time, within a bubble that lacks outside perspective and with justifiable goals and aims, it can be hard to see and difficult to name or address. The 'creep' happ...
May 23, 2022•1 hr 28 min•Ep. 60
Episode 59: In this episode Shane and I hit pause on delving into the megachurch playbook to check in and get a sense of where things are up to. We talk about how we've been feeling over the past few weeks as this conversation has unfolded, what feelings have come to the surface, and the different kinds of feedback we are getting. We also talk about what we're hopeful we've been able to do so far, our priority for 'survivors', what this moment could mean for the church, and some of where we thin...
May 16, 2022•58 min•Ep. 59
Episode 58: In this 4th part of our ongoing megachurch conversation, Shane and I look at the origin story of megachurch culture. In other words, why did churches like this begin to emerge in the mid-late 20th and early 21st century? We also explore some of the key beliefs that sit at the heart of the megachurch worldview. We talk about the "who/what" (the "man with the vision"), the "why" (colonisation and empire building), the "how" (a distortion of the sacrificial giving and servant-heartednes...
May 09, 2022•1 hr 22 min•Ep. 58
Episode 57: Shane and I are back at it, talking about megachurch culture and some of the central themes that help us understand what's going on. In this conversation we talk about the emphasis on unending growth (at all costs), and the way in which language of "another level", "breakthrough", and the "best is yet to come" can drive a culture of toxic positivity and burnout. We also talk about the church as a contextless place, a thing that happens "to" people and which can get caught up with the...
May 02, 2022•1 hr 12 min•Ep. 57
Episode 56: This is Part 2 of a conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt about megachurch culture and the concerning and harrowing stories emerging from victims of bullying, harassment and abuse within some of these churches. In this conversation we talk about explicit and implicit coercion, the role of fear and the power of the charismatic ego, and we examine the "honour culture" that underpins much of the megachurch system - a culture that contributes both to the inability to speak up, as well as be...
Apr 25, 2022•1 hr 16 min•Ep. 56
Episode 55: This episode is the first in a series of conversations between myself and Shane Meyer-Holt (who you may remember from way back in episode 3) as we respond to some of the deeply concerning stories emerging from megachurches in recent weeks and months. There are common themes found in the experiences of those who have suffered under the weight of pressure, expectation, bullying, harassment and abuse of power within these systems. Shane and I have been talking about this for more than a...
Apr 20, 2022•1 hr 14 min•Ep. 55
Episode 54: A conversation with Dr Jeff Crabtree discussing his research into abuse of power, sexual harassment and misogyny in the music industry in Australia and New Zealand. We explore what his research uncovers, talk about the complexities of power imbalance (it's not only about roles and titles), and how powerful men often abuse their power over others, especially women. Jeff also has a history in the church and so we discuss how similar power dynamics can play out within church organisatio...
Mar 23, 2022•1 hr 11 min•Ep. 54
Episode 53: Dr Obery Hendricks is a life long social activist, he is one of the foremost commentators on the intersection of religion and political economy in America, and one of the most widely read and influential African American biblical scholars writing today. In this wonderful, challenging and insightful conversation we discuss his most recent book, provocatively titled - 'Christians Against Christianity'. We talk about the way that money, power and race have shaped modern American Evangel...
Jan 31, 2022•1 hr 6 min•Ep. 53
Episode 52: In this episode we look at what happens when faith and belief get stuck in concrete, when they get locked in and locked down, and we’re unable to adapt, change, innovate, rethink, deconstruct and reimagine. And this concrete kind of faith often stems from a very concrete view of God, and can lead us to narrow and suffocating ways of seeing ourselves and the world, which in turn leads us to ethical approaches that can be very harmful for people. And then we talk about dynamism, relati...
Dec 15, 2021•43 min•Ep. 52
Episode 51: In this episode we explore how the narrative arc of contemporary Christian faith can foster an unfounded confidence (and arrogance), a blindness to truths from outside of the system, and even authoritarianism and wild conspiracies. This can happen when we feel we're in on something special, something true that the 'world' won't understand, and when faith is centred on believing these truths that we've found regardless of the evidence. But while modern Christianity can often define it...
Nov 04, 2021•41 min•Ep. 51
Episode 50: This episode continues the conversation on the problems and possibilities of Christianity, and explores what happens when religious institutions become narcissistic. In other words, when church communities become self-important, don't handle criticism well, lack empathy and support the powerful instead of centring the victim. While many human institutions, large and small, are captured by this temptation, some forms of Christian theology feed this institutional narcissism through bel...
Oct 16, 2021•35 min•Ep. 50
Episode 49: The latest episode of In the Shift examines the fusion of Christian mission with Western capitalism and how it culminates in the "church growth" obsession. But when everything is oriented toward growth we see that for the church machine to function it needs homogeneity and often has an inability to deal with complexity and pain (suffering is very inefficient!). As people's lives are left by the wayside, the collateral damage can be justified by the apparent "greater good" of the king...
Sep 23, 2021•36 min•Ep. 49
Episode 48: This episode explores various paths of deconstruction and their sometimes overlapping, sometimes divergent, directions. In particular, we look at 4 of these trajectories - the liturgical, the mystical, the political and the agnostic. Faith deconstruction is a complex and often difficult/painful experience and sometimes, though we might discover a great sense of camaraderie and community in connecting with others about what we “aren’t” anymore, we can find ourselves drifting apart as ...
Sep 11, 2021•41 min•Ep. 48
Episode 47: In this episode we welcome Dr Thomas Jay Oord back to the podcast for a three-peat; this time to discuss his views on life after death. We cover all sorts of terrain, from the biblical ambiguities associated with heaven & resurrection, to near-death and out-of-body experiences, to the philosophical outlook of panpsychism and the mind-body relationship, along with possibilities for how we could conceive of post-death subjective experience, and Tom's view of unrelenting divine love...
Jun 23, 2021•57 min•Ep. 47
Episode 46: This episode unpacks the language of heaven in the Christian scriptures. One of the mistakes we often make is to read our presumptions into the language and stories of these ancient texts. Much of the time the biblical authors were ambiguous about life after death, and the 'kingdom of heaven' was not a place for life after death at all - rather it was about a present reality unfolding among us. But what does this mean for us when we die? Is it pearly gates, clouds, wings and harps, a...
Jun 10, 2021•36 min•Ep. 46
Episode 45: The "mark of the beast", the "antichrist", the "rapture"; these are terms associated with a relatively recent, and unfortunately influential way of reading ancient scriptural texts. So where do these ideas come from, what is the problem with them, and what are some alternative interpretations that might be more helpful to us? This episode pulls apart some of the assumptions that sit behind "end-times" thinking, including the impact on geopolitical politics and conflict (especially in...
May 26, 2021•40 min•Ep. 45
