I Choose…Loving Better with Jillian Turecki

You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hi, everyone, welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about the choices we make and where they lead us. Guys. Today, my guest is someone I think we're all going to learn a lot from. Her social media is incredibly insightful and I'm so excited I get to connect with her today and pick her brain. She's a certified relationship coach, a teacher, and the host of the Jillian on Love podcast.

Oh my god, thank you for having me.

Okay, I have a question right out of the gate. How come a certified relationship coach?

Oh?

Man, Well, I mean I literally did it out of just this was like what I was meant to do. I taught yoga for many years, like almost twenty years, so I was helping people with their relationship with themselves for many years. And I also worked with went to people's homes and worked with families and couples. So I was always in the world of like mind body wellness, but personal development was not. Because we're talking this is like twenty years ago. And then when I started to

Like why am I in this position?

Because being in the position of getting a divorce at the age that I was at was in complete contradiction to how I identified.

I thought, I was like this evolved person, why is this happening?

And I, you know, I'm a child of a psychiatrist and i'd.

Been in therapy.

You know, I'm a Jewish New Yorker, so like therapy is like very normal.

For us.

So in other words, like a lot of people are in therapy now, but therapy was sort of a thing of the seventies and eighties and nineties with New Yorkers long before that. So when my ex now ex husband and I went to couples, therapy was really bad. And I'm not putting it down as a whole, but we went to a couple and it was not helpful at all,

It sounds like you learned so much through your trials and it's a way of sort of almost paying it forward to other people that are going through similar things, like what you learned sharing those messages. That's so powerful. I think that's how we all learn.

Yeah.

I'm really just sort of a teacher at heart, and so if I learned something and really integrate into my life, I immediately want to teach it in some way, right, share it.

Yeah, I want to share it.

I want to help in any way that I can once I fully understand it, and so yeah, that's been sort of my journey.

I think that we're similar in that way. My mom probably always wanted to be a therapist. We had so many self help books and it was just, you know, part of our family dynamic. It sounds very similar. I

Yeah, And he didn't actually come to me, he sent in a text.

He just said, Yeah, I'm not a fan of this guy already.

I know. I know it's not it's not an easy story to tell, and I don't I would imagine it's not an easy story for him to think about.

But no, it was.

It was a pretty It was like everything that like you should not do when you break up with someone, right happened, you know.

About let read the room, Bud, Yeah, well about timing? Okay, well eleven years later, now, yeah, how did you get through that? And what would you say to that past version of Jillian?

Yeah? How did I get through that? With a lot of help. I leaned on my sisters.

It was heartbreaking because typically my mom would be the person who I would lean and lean into and lean on the most, but she was limited and being able to support me fully and I didn't want to and I didn't want to burden her. I leaned on friends. In the beginning, I was in therapy twice a week. That's when I actually started working with a coach and I was introduced to Tony Robbins and actually his work was really the catalyst for me. That's kind of changed everything.

But it was sad and it was a dark time. And also.

What I also did was because I became so obsessed with what makes a relationship work, and I was obsessed with trying to get myself to feel better and to survive. I worked on myself. I just dove right into all of that. So what would I tell that version of me? And I sort of alluded to this in my book, which is, you feel like you're dying right now, but actually you're being reborn. And that sounds kind of corny, but it really is very true.

It is true.

Yeah, so it's you feel like you're dying right now, but I promise you that your life is taking a different direction and it's okay, and it's actually the direction that you need to beyond.

And I would just reassure her.

You knew in the thick of it that even though this hurts like hell, this is the best thing for me.

I knew that I was inspired by what it was that I was learning, and it was giving my life some sort of meaning. So the meaning didn't take away the pain, but it did help me get up in the morning. And then obviously it gets easier right as time goes on, it actually gets easier. But yeah, I gave my life, it gave me some purpose, and I think that's really that's a big motivator for people.

Absolutely, a reason to get up in the morning, something to be curious about, want to spend some energy investigating. I mean, I've definitely been there. I mean, I know pretty much all of us have been what we call at our lowest our darkest times. And you're right, it's important to have something to look forward to or believe in, or something that something Oh my god, it's the only thing.

It's I mean, and I've worked with a lot of people who were in a sort of a deep emotional hole, and so much of it is if I can get this person something to find, something to look forward to or even every morning, something to listen to that inspires them, that is what everyone needs.

Yeah, I'm so stubborn. I'm like, yeah, yeah, sure, that's for everybody else, not for me right now. I know, I'm just miserable and I'm in this dark place and I just want to be left alone. So I had to go through that period and kind of honor that and let that be for a while until I was ready. Like you, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. So people have to be ready to receive just a little opening, even just alone insight.

Absolutely absolutely, you know, even though I can look back at that time and understand its purpose, it's not like I don't romanticize it in any way, and I don't try to romanticize it for anyone. Like, there were some really dark times and and I definitely had moments where I was just closed off to just anything making me feel better.

For sure.

Yeah, I think that there's so much talk about how to come out of those situations, and and there's so many lessons and tips and tricks people offer, yeah, for us to feel better, But sometimes we just have to let ourselves feel bad.

Yeah, for sure, we have to let ourselves feel bad.

And I mean, this is it's an interesting it's an interesting conversation that has a lot of nuance, it's it's and when where do we draw the line when someone is still just in it and not moving forward and still stuck in that sort of traumatic state, Where do we kind of draw that line? Right, Because there's always a lesson and it's not something that you want to tell the person when they're in the acute stage of that grief, like that's not the time to talk about

And see that you mentioned in your book that is out now, everybody you should run to the computer and buy it or to the bookstore and still even have bookstores. I don't even know. But you say that we cannot heal our love lives without healing the relationship we have with ourselves. Every relationship we have had has had one thing in common us. So explain to our listeners. If we don't accept this commonality, what will continue to happen in our relationships?

Will continue to repeat patterns, And that's just the bottom line. Look, the fact that every relationship we ever had has had one thing in common, and that's us.

Does not mean that we are the problem.

Because I know that's like a very that's a very you know zeigeist deed like phrase right now, or that you know it's we're to blame. It's that you can't change if you have to be the change that you want to see in your love life. And you have certain beliefs and certain conditioning, and you have your own unique childhood, and you have your unique way in which you see the world, and you are a human being, and so by definition, you have thoughts that are very messy and very empowering.

And we are not taught this in school.

And if you're lucky, you had great parents who taught you a lot of things. But guess what, And this is where it's a huge mystery. I've known people who have a who've had great childhoods, and they don't necessarily make the best choices in relationships and partners. Now, a great childhood helps, but nothing is a guarantee. And so if we're not able, you know, this is like we're why is this happening to me? Why is this happening?

You just don't have the tools. It's it.

Yeah, I mean I had a great childhood, pretty great yeah as childhoods go, and I had great parents that tried to teach me I could do anything. But the one thing that I always struggled with in my life was being in a relationship like the just the day to day and how to get in and out of conflict with a partner, how to not lose myself, how

Did you what did you learn about yourself in terms of what works for you in relationship and what doesn't work well.

I certainly learned that I need to be able to express my feelings or to have a voice in a relationship. A long time, and one that I did not feel seen or heard and that was just slowly killing me. Yeah, and just setting a terrible example for my kids.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And the thing is, like you don't sometimes you don't see until you've been through it, like where you can grow and learn, you know. Yeah, you have to sometimes just feel it, get through it, go through it, and come out on the other side with your jewels of wisdom.

Yeah, exactly.

Can we talk a moment about attachment styles in a relationship? So explain to my listeners what the different attachment styles because everybody's talking about attachment styles.

I know. Now I'm not a fan of how popular they've become, but yes, I'll talk about it.

Why aren't you a fan?

First of all, Well, I am a fan of it as a tool to help you understand yourself and relationships. But I am not of the school of thought that everything boils down to your attachment style.

Right, and because you label it, it's going to make everything better.

Or and also people's self. You know, I have anxious attachment. Now, you like you can't have it, you know, like it's not a cold you you know you you know you can't like have anxious attachment. You maybe struggle with some anxious attachment issues because of childhood, but that can change depending on who you're in a relationship with. That can

For you and your needs.

Okay, for me, I would have leaned anxiously attached because my father had a very very complicated relationship with my father, So that made me more attached to my mom, So I would have a lot of separation anxiety from my mom. People who are avoidant, typically what happens is when they're growing up, there might be a lot of ameshment.

So there their.

Parent, maybe they had a parent who parentified them, maybe they were raised maybe it was a boy raised by a single mother, and the single mother instead of actually being in romantic relationships, you just always she made her son her husband in that weird way, because this happens, This really does happen, and then that little boy grows up to not want anyone to need them because they've had that mother who's always needed them.

And that never felt good.

And that never feels good. No, and then oh, in some avoidance. You know, some people are just wired for more independence. You know, that was the ethos of the family system. It was like, you don't need anyone, you need yourself. And then other people are more wired for togetherness. It's like, you don't know, it's not you need other people. And so that might show up as a conflict in a relationship because that person is wanting more togetherness and the other person's wanting more autonomy.

So it's not to set their record straight.

I think attachment theory is brilliant in its own right, but there's nuance, and the nuance is not described enough. And there's also nuance in the sense that you know, historically more men are avoidant and more women will be anxiously attached. So why does that happen well, because in general, and see I want to say it's in general, women have historically tended to they have valued connection and love and higher than men, and men have valued achievement higher

And they're really.

Struggling in work, and so when they get into a relationship and they put all their emotional stock in that relationship instead of nurturing other aspects of their life, so they may present as sort of chasing love from the avoidant. But either way, in a relationship, there's always this dance of intimacy of let's get close, but let's also pull away. Because we're always trying to straddle this line between how much autonomy are we going to have in this relationship?

You did?

You do?

You have a lot of abandonment in your life, and therefore you need someone to be in a relationship where there is more togetherness.

How threatened are you by by having to meet someone's emotional needs? These are the things that we need to hear ourselves, because for a relationship to work, both people need to be highly invested in meeting each other's emotional needs while at the same time capable of meeting their own.

And it's a process.

Yeah, it's hard for me to even wrap my head around attachment styles and labeling myself one versus another. I feel like I'm all of them, yes, right, because it's and I've been. I've been all of them at some point, transitioned or grown through certain ones to make life better and to make a relationship feel stronger.

Yes.

So I feel like this whole labeling of attachment styles for me has never felt right.

Yeah, and that makes sense.

Yeah. I heard you say also that the top three reasons in a relationship when a relationship fails are stress, taking each other for granted, and resentment. Yes those high yes, yes, yes, yes, I have them all.

Yes.

I think people are so afraid to have those hard conversations because we're afraid to hurt someone or have that tough conversation with your partner. How do we do that?

Yeah, A lot of people don't have the tough conversations because they're afraid of not being good enough for the person. They're afraid that if they express this vulnerability, this need that the other person's going to reject them, like so many pretty much all the things that we do in a relationship where we're dancing around intimacy or we're not having the hard conversations, is because we are trying to

But if you can kind.

Of slow down your body and your breath a little bit and recognize they're not a monster.

So you have to lead with love. And that means you don't.

Make you statements, you make I and WE statements, because the moment you go into you, you're going into blame, and the moment you're going into blame, you've lost the battle. Like it's there, it's done. It's a rapid anywhere. Yeah, it's like before it even gets started, it's over. So you have to do that and lead with compassion and with love and respect and and have some sort of heartfelt understanding for the pain that your partner is in,

You know, we should talk about sex.

Even though people don't talk about sex, the people avoid that conversation. People are much more comfortable getting naked and exchanging fluids with one another than they are talking about their needs. And then what happens is a lot of people get into trouble. They get attached to someone who's not attached to them. They have sex. It's not even that good, but they're doing it because they think that they should do it.

This is more something that women feel.

Right.

Do you talk a lot about how we should wait?

Yes, well I think there's no I don't believe in any hard fast rules, you know. I think it's deeply personal all but what I do believe is have the conversation if you attach after having sex with someone who you actually like, which is about ninety five percent of women.

Special you know it really is.

I think for women it decreases a little bit with menopause, just because with estrogen going down, what happens is that not as much oxytocin is released. And then women when they're when they're transitioning into menopause and beyond, women tend to become much more self sufficient, a lot more independent. With that said, I've worked with women who are well past menopause years. You get attached, so I think you

Yeah, so it's not so much facue. Yeah, there's so much value there. Just protect yourself, protect your heart, and protect your heart, protect your heart. That's it.

It doesn't mean you have to be guarded, no available, no or avoidant or whatever.

No, no, no.

In fact, if you're guarded, you're not going to get many people to be.

That interested in you.

You'll get the occasional one who likes the challenge and wants to kind of break down your walls, but eventually he or she will get bored with that.

Yeah, definitely. What if you're the kind of person in a relationship where words are so important and like something will be said you can't unsay or unhear something in like say a fight or an argument. Yeah, what if you're the person that ruminates that on those the bad things that they heard, and they just can't stop thinking about them for days or weeks, And it's like it can kind of just create this environment where not only you but your partner is walking around on eggshells and

Okay, So this is a really great question. Can you give me an example and I'm going to break it down for you. Let me see and we can make up an example. Yeah, like say, in an argument, oh this is good. This is very vulnerable to me.

Okay.

In an argument that I had recently with Dave, he said something that pissed me off and hurt my feelings. He said, oh, now that you have a self help podcast, you know everything, or something like that, and I was like, oouch, No, that's not why I'm saying the things I'm saying. But like when someone sort of belittles you or takes what you is important to you and makes it something negative, Okay, So who's Dave in your life? My husband?

Okay, So what do you think was going on for him in that moment in his Let's let's take this in stages. Let's lead with love, let's lead with love, and let's go, let's go and stay. What do you think was happening for him in that moment in his body? If you were to put yourself literally, if you could step into his body, into his nervous system, into his entire physiology, the moments that led up to him saying that to you, what do you think he was experiencing in his body? Well?

I know that he works now on not fleeing, not taking flight. Okay, So I know that he was in that place of between being defensive about something and wanting to just get the hell out of there. He was kind of torn, okay, trying to figure that out in his own mind. And think I think words were just coming out to deflect or defend himself.

Okay.

And how do you think that state? How do you think that manifested in his body? Was he tense, was he sweating?

Was he nervous?

Do you think his heart rate was elevated or do you think his heart rate was normal.

No, I think he was. Yeah, and it texts tense and just felt like upset.

Yeah, very unsure.

So you said something very important he became He felt very uncertain. What do you think he was uncertain of?

I think maybe he would fear that I'm outgrowing him or I don't have a place for him in my life in some way.

Yes, So in that moment, he was uncertain of his importance to you, his significance to you, he was uncertain of your love in that moment. Not saying that you did that, We're just trying to get into his nervous system and what he was experiencing. M So in that moment of do I fight, do I flee? Oh my god, I'm trying to work on not fleeing. So I'm going to be here right now. I'm really used to fleeing. Fleeing is how I how I go into my cave and I protect myself.

But here I have to stay and I'm totally ill equipped.

I don't have this skills yet to actually communicate, and I feel not enough right now, but I don't know that consciously. But my heart rate is going up, my blood pressure is going up, because right now the saber tooth tiger is the fact that I might not be good enough, I might lose love. I'm not going to be the man that I need that I need to be, And so I'm going to say something totally immature and totally inappropriate because tagger and exactly because I am so

But you can.

Stop ruminating about it because the meaning that you give him give to what he said can now change to oh, I understand more of why he said that, and that might give.

You your your mind a little bit of freedom. Does it?

It? Does? It?

Really does? I think that's so important to sort of, maybe not in the heat of the moment, but afterwards, to take yourself aside and get quiet and think about like why what is he feeling that made him say that?

But even in the moment, what you can practice doing is saying, but let's take a deep breath.

I love you. I know you're probably really fucking scared right now. I am too.

I'm really frustrated to I don't like what you said, but I love you. I'm not going anywhere. I obviously don't know your marriage. But this is just an example of, you know, how can we get to the core of it, and how can we do it faster?

How can we do it actually in the moment.

Yeah, I think that for me, starts with like a deep breath.

Always like a major deep breath. Okay, yeah, that's saying a moment, it's a time out.

Yeah, even if it only lasts for a few seconds.

Yes, And then when you start to think about it this way, it creates empathy because then you're like, oh, right, this person didn't actually mean to be like, yeah, stupid immature thing for him to say. It was just his seven year old coming out because he felt so afraid, and maybe yeah, he fell back into a corner. He felt afraid, and yes, as a married couple, you want to be working towards making sure that the inner teenager and inner child comes out less and less right.

But if we can have compassion for each other in those moments, yep, then you can have compassion under standing for him, and then he can be like, you know what, because by him feeling seen in that way, he you know, the goal would be like you know what, I wish I didn't say that, you know, I'm sorry. And that's really the process of repair.

And so that's what I mean by you're not Really it's not about seeing the monster, but can you see like where they could be coming from, and so that stops the rumination.

It's so easy for people to get caught up in their own stresses, in their own lives. I know I am guilty of this.

Yeah, we get very self and working. Yeah yes, yeah, I.

Hate that about I hate that as a characteristic of myself. I don't ever want to be self consumed, but sometimes it happens. Yes, I'm being honest. That can lead to disconnection from your partner. Yes, my therapist always taught me it's circle, square circle. There are two circles, the two people in the relationship, and then there's that square in the middle where we're feeding that square. We're putting good things, energies into that square, and we're creating that space that

You know, it's an interesting thing.

A lot of times when people say, I want, you know, I don't want to lose myself in the relationship. I want to know the story around that, because sometimes sometimes it's very legitimate. Oh I lose myself in the relationship, but I want to know what that means to someone, Like what does it mean to you personally to lose yourself in a relationship? And then what's your story around that?

What am I?

Like?

What's my deal right now? Why am I? Why am I.

Spinning right now? What's the story that I have? What's the fear that I have? What's the worry that I have? And so that's how that's literally how you do it. It's and it's just getting really practiced at when you're in that state, and sometimes you just have to sit down and be like, what do I need right now?

I think that's such a good thing. A good takeaway for people is to check in with themselves and ask themselves what they need.

It's the self awareness. Yeah, it's the self awareness for sure.

You said before about codependency. Yeah, I heard this morning in a conversation interdependency. Yeah, please tell me the difference sure, because I for a long time have said, yeah, I'm codependent, and I'm proud of it, Like, yeah, I have no problem with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't feel like it's damaging. But I'm intrigued by this concept of interdependency.

Okay, what is it?

So interdependency is just the it's just sort of the dance between I need me and I need you and I you know, codependencies gets this really bad rap and everyone's like, oh, you're you're dependent, Like we need each other, we need each other, and we need to depend on each other.

True codependency is really again.

It's more I am going to abandon myself and only focus on you, right. We see that a lot in uh relationships where there's addiction and alcoholism. It's I'm just going to focus on you and your sobriety or you I'm just focusing on you getting sober, and I'm not even thinking about what I need and what I want

We're in each other's lives.

But a lot of people they get into relationships with this thing, with this idea that if I'm with the right person, I'm always going to be happy, or you know, why isn't this person making me happy? When really it's the relationship that we the goal. The whole essence behind strengthening the relationship with ourselves is really learning how to find meaning and fulfillment inside and in life without having

Again, it's a dance.

But I realize I'm responsible for my own happiness. I have needs that I need to be able to meet for myself and and I'm also a social animal, and we are in partnership, and I need to rely on you. Eric From said it best, and I'm butchering it a little bit, but I'll get the gist. The person who is mature in love is the person who needs the person because they love them, doesn't love the person because they need them.

That I need a minute with.

Yeah, I think it's you kind of have to let that settle in.

I love the person because I need them or I need a person. Wait, what tell me?

Ideally you want to need your husband because you love him because you choose him, so you need him, versus you love him and you choose him because.

You need him. Right, you want the first, I want the first. The second one sounds like an unhealthy attachment.

It's neediness, and it usually speaks to, Okay, well, let's talk about your life and how you can meet your own needs and not just have someone in your life, because you feel like if you don't have someone in your life, you're no one, you know. So there's there's a lot to really unpack in that statement alone, but I think it really defines the essence of it.

All And it's so wild how throughout your timeline of life you could have all these different relationships and experiences and each of them can be different, like just depending on the dance within the relationship.

Oh yeah, absolutely absolutely, And we're different people in different relationships.

Yeah. I think that's so important for people to acknowledge and recognize about themselves, Like we grow every single day, like we're learning and changing all the time. And so just because we maybe had a terrible experience or we weren't our best selves in one situation relationship, it doesn't mean that's how we are in all relationships.

Right exactly, Because a relationship is a dynamic between two or more people, yep. And so we're these two separate entities that come together and form this thing that we share between us, which is our relationship, and how we interact with each other.

It changes. It depends on who you're in a relation. That's why some people, you can be in a relationship.

And all your attachment issues come up with that person, and then they're with someone else and it's really barely coming up.

That's because who you choose matters.

Who you choose matter, who.

You choose matters.

Okay, so let's talk about like red flags. Let's say you're looking for a partner. I learned I went after my divorce and before I started dating, when I was in that phase of like I don't want to start dating, I'll just be alone forever. I'm good.

Yeah, I know I feeling.

My therapist was like, let's talk about your non negotiables. What are the things that are most important to you and really clarify what you want and what you don't want. What are the subtle red flags that we shouldn't be ignoring when we're looking for a partner, Like we can go inside and reflect and talk about our think about our no negotiables and what we want we don't want. But what are red flags?

Like red flags like.

Yea, Well, there's the obvious like abusive, yes, right, verbally, physically, addiction, those.

Kinds of yesses.

But what are the the more secondary red flag?

Sure, so the secondary red flags are they bad mouth their exes without ever taking any accountability. So that's that's a big one. Yes, some red flags are. This is also age and stage of life dependent. But let's say you know you're over the age of thirty. They don't have their life together, like they haven't figured out any sort of purpose in life, or and they could be like still sort of figuring that out. But after a certain age, you want to make sure that someone has

That they have just some stability. I think that's very important.

A red flag is also that they I mean, there's just like how they treat the waiter, how they treat others, how they treat themselves.

That's a big one.

Oh, I always watch how they treat the waiter, the waitress.

Yeah, because you're looking for people with strong character, and our work is to try to develop our own character.

So how they treat others, their.

Words and their actions, are they aligning or their actions never really matching their words? Are they consistent with you or are they totally inconsistent where you feel like you just don't know where how this person feels about you one minute they're really hot with you. Well that's a huge, huge red flag and warrants. Yeah, here's the thing. These secondary red flags warn't a conversation, Hey, I notice that this is happening.

What's up? Or this is I know this this is happening? Or I noticed you said something to your mother the other day that wasn't just so nice, And I'm just curious. I'd love to know a little bit.

More about what that relationship is like, you know. So sometimes it's not about immediately writing the person off, but just opening up for conversation and then seeing what it is that they have to say about it.

Other red flags are they.

I mean, believe it or not, you don't share if you're looking for like long term partnership, you don't share the same values.

Yeah, that's a red fag. That's that's that's an indication that you should not be pursuing a relationship with them. And then and then here's here's another thing that people don't pay enough attention to. How do you feel when you're with this person?

Do you feel comfortable sharing an opinion? Do you feel comfortable being yourself?

Yes, that's so important.

It's very important.

I think again, it's just about asking yourself these questions and listening for the real answers about how you're feeling. Yeah, and not trying to sugarcoat or make things, you know, rainbows and ponies. Yes, because you want something so badly. Yes, it's not going to change, it's not going to change.

And I don't think that you should that anyone should be seeing anyone for more than three months without a LA.

You don't think anybody should be seeing anybody for more than three months without a label.

Yeah, what are what are we? What are are we working towards something? Are we monogamous? Like? What are we? Are we?

What's going on? Don't don't let it stay in the gray area. But a lot of people's, particularly women, will let it stay in the gray air because they're afraid and they you know, they don't want to say anything.

But don't three months.

You should know if you don't know after three months, particularly if it's you know, some people, there's a very slow start, there's travel, there's kids, you're not spending time. But if you're spending consistent time with someone for three months and you don't know, there's your answer.

Mm hmm, there's your answer, whether you want to listen to.

It or not.

Yeah.

I also think you know. Another red flag is you're spending consistent time together and there's no.

There's no integration of you into their life. You're not meeting their friends, you're not meeting their family. Your relationship on exists in a bubble with them. You got to be very careful that that doesn't happen, because you can't know a person unless you know their world.

Can't truly, really truly learn.

About another person without seeing them interact with their friends, with your friends, family, Like anyone can be cool when you exist in a bubble.

Absolutely, you got to look outside the bubble.

You have to.

Yeah, okay, So I have a friend who is in the throes of a breakup. Her boyfriend of eight years ghosted her as his way of ending their relationship. Ghosted her. Oh, what what do you do? How do you there's no closure, there's what how do you move forward from that? What are there things that she should be doing to help herself while she's healing from this trauma?

Like, yeah, so let me ask me, guys, let me ask you this. What how lucky is she to be rid of this guy?

I don't know. I didn't know him.

Oh, you didn't know him.

This is before we met, Okay, but I mean, was it a different relationship with her after eight years? I'm pretty sure it's a good thing that this is happening.

Yeah, I mean, it's never a good thing, obviously to get broken up with in that way and it's very, very traumatizing. But what she needs to remember is that I would imagine that leading up to that, things could not be very easy.

Maybe she didn't acknowledge that or see that. Our wont to.

See that, Yes, but that's part of the healing process, is to be able to acknowledge that and that one thing. And this isn't going to take all her pain away, But I think this is an important thing to realize when a person goess, especially if they're ghosting a relationship versus like a dating scenario, which is so much more serious. They're only going to be haunted by their own ghost, which is their conscience. I really believe that none of us get away with anything in life.

No, And we may see seem like we do in the immediate moment, in the moment, in the immediate.

But we never really do because that's going to weigh heavily.

On his conscience.

And or he's just going to bring that terrible immaturity to his next relationship and have more relationship pain.

So he's not going to get away with it. And that's not going to take away her.

Pain, but maybe it'll take it'll ease the suffering a little bit for her that he's not.

He's not scot free from this.

And I would also be very if I were speaking to her, I'd be very curious to know, like what what were the events and the things leading up to this ghosting scenario?

How how bad was it.

And if it was bad for one or the other, why wasn't in.

A conversation, you know, because he couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle it, And we don't know, We don't know what was going on between the two of them. We don't know what would happen when he tried to talk to her. We don't know what really goes on behind closed doors in a person's relationship.

So true, but it's more.

About him than anything else, unless, you know, unless there are scenarios where that happens, because every time you try to talk to the person, they start kicking and screaming quite literally. But more often than not, it's you know, it's uh. The person is not ghosting because they're trying to get themselves out of an unsafe situation.

They're ghosting because because of their own.

Character defects, right, they don't know how to handle it. Yeah, they can't they're too too afraid, too mature.

Yeah, yeah, oh, there's so many much I could talk to you. I want to have you back with my husband on I don't know if you so much fun it's it must be feel really good to be able to help people on the level that you do.

Yeah, you know, I try. I mean, I'm you know, I'm humans.

So sometimes I feel like, you know, maybe I'm not helping out and you know, like you get into your head about stuff like that. But I do the best that I can, and.

It does feel good when I am able to make any kind of impact.

So for sure, before I let you go, Jillian, what was your last I Choose me moment?

Oh hmmm, you know, I think it was. It was a very kind of like tempered I choose me. It wasn't like a stand on the top of the mountain like I Choose me kind of moment. Those moments exist, Okay, those moments exist. Yeah, there's moments I guess and I'm and I'm all, I'm here for them. It was more like a quiet one of just I just kind of had been in an emotional rut and couldn't figure it, Like just feeling very easily triggered and not relationally, just

And that was an I Choose Me moment, my most recent one.

That's a pretty big one.

It is a pretty big one. Yeah, I guess it's bigger than I thought.

So necessary. Yeah, so good, so good. I wish you every best thing, and congratulations so much on your book.

Thank you. I appreciate so much. It was so nice to meet you and to talk with you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Okay, she was so good. I could literally listen to her for hours and talk with her. Even though I've learned so much, I just feel like there's so much more I could learn. We're going to have to get her back on the podcast. In the future, because I still have like a million more questions than I want to ask her, and I want my hub to sit here with me and talk to her. Is that weird? That'll be wild? Okay? As we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want you this week to take a