BONUS: Gary Jubelin joins Something To Talk About

immediately spring to mind. Gary, of course, specialized in the field of homicide for twenty five years, rising to the rank of Detective Chief Inspector until the time of his retirement from the force in twenty nineteen, a mid a blaze of headlines. Since leaving, he's built another very successful career, this time in the media as the author of two best selling books and of course as host of one of Australia's most successful podcasts, Eye Catch Killers. But here's

something you probably don't know about Gary. He's a big fan of meditation. He's also really into yoga and he believes that if you have a calm mind, it will make everything better. Not perfect, but definitely better. Given it's a time of year when many of us are thinking about ways to improve our wellbeing and making all sorts of New Year's health resolutions. On today's episode is something to talk about. Gary joins me to discuss the importance

of mindfulness and physical and mental wellness. Gary Jubilan, Welcome to the Stellar podcast.

an interest in wellness for a long time. But before we get to that, we might talk a little bit about your day job, okay, And I'd like to chat to you a little bit about what a sense you have with the demographic of that audience. I mean, there's also a huge female following and the interest among women in some of the content in podcasts like yours, and the crime genre is always seem so counterintuitive.

it's not black and white. There's a gray area. There's a lot of pain, but there's some really beautiful moments to moments of redemption and forgiveness and all sorts of things.

notorious criminals. Criminals that I've had a few on that when they were working I were working, were confronted each other, there'd probably be guns drawn. Yeah, they were league, major league criminals, but I've learned that sometimes their upbringing is part of why they've gone into the line of work. They did also victims of crime. The emotion I pay homage to the victims of crime because I don't think people fully understand we see the headlines of someone being

murdered doesn't just impact on one person. It's not just a victim, it's the families and it can go on for generations. It's also allowed me to push aspects of law and order where police haven't done the right thing, or the legislation is not right. I can actually get informed people on to talk about that and sort of open people's minds up on the different way of doing things. So it's sort of grown organically, but it's something that

I really enjoy. And when I left the Cops and it was in controversial and dramatic circumstances, I had all this passion, I had all this energy, and I didn't know where the channel it. But I've found that I have been able to channel it through the podcast and actually making a difference. And quite frankly, I think I'm fortunate getting to speak to all these interesting people.

redemption or rehabilitation. Can I ask you about your own journey with that, because I would imagine coming through as a homicide detective, as you say, you're on the sort of other side, quote unquote, so to speak, while you're in the force, will youse somebody that always had a possible empathy or a curiosity about what had led to somebody to create a criminal act.

after what's happened to me in the police. When I was in the police, I had the empathy and that I very much victim focus. But in regards to the bad guys, I didn't have time to sort of reflect on, well, you might have had a tough upbringing. Basically, a case is allocated to you work the case, you solve it if you can, you put it before the courts, and then you move on to the next one. So I didn't have a lot of time to reflect on why

this person is committing these type of offenses. But yeah, I think it's so crucial in understanding crime and really in the fight against crime. I always thought I was making a big difference with powers of arrests, my handcuffs, my gum, and I'm a cop and making a difference in the world of crime. And I like to think I did with the stuff that I was doing, but I realized there's a lot of other people out there that work just as hard and probably have a bigger impact,

and they're not cops. There. The people are helping people steer them in the right direction, that type of thing. And you also mentioned redemption, and I think redemption is such a beautiful thing. I love a story of redemption, like someone that's been at rock bottom and then finds their way out of it. I find it quite inspiring.

of dismiss these conversations about redemption. As you know, bleeding heart, I'll get over it, but from you, it is unexpected. And I think also does really have such cut through given the work that you've done and what you've seen throughout the course of your career.

I've gone from policing then I'm working in the media and all that. And he said, you have got an important platform because of who you are and what you've done and take getting back to the point that you raised, I think that's where it does carry some weight in that I'm not looked at as a bleeding heart. So if I'm saying, hey, maybe we could do things a little bit differently, people do they can't just write me

off as a do gooder, and they actually listen. And I think that's the people on the other side of the law, like the people that have been in trouble with the law. I think they start to see what I can deliver to that I'll actually listen to them, get to know them, and then you know if there's a reason why they've committed a crime or how we could change that. I think that's making a big difference

in the world of crime. So that's where I feel like I'm still doing something that I'm passionate about, because I'm not very good at doing stuff. If I'm not passionate about it, I can fake it, but I don't make it. But if I'm really driven by something, I can frame myself in one hundred percent.

and in your other work and your books. So that I think is a very underrated character reistic as a journalist. I would imagine it probably was in the police force as well.

So there's a genuineness to it. You can't fake it. And I think one thing in policing, especially at the sharp end like homicide investigation, people are attuned. They're hyper alert on your emotions. If you're faking it, if you're sitting there and you're taking a statement you're not really interested, people get it and they shut up. So I learned that skill, and I think that was transferable into my

redirecting my energies into the media. But when policing was taken away from me, that was a hard, hard point. I had to basically pick myself up and go because you know, it was front page paper and Painter is a corrupt cop. And I think I've talked about it enough, but recording conversations on the telephone. I'm not ashamed of what I did, but it was confronting. The passion I had for policing was literally taken away from me overnight.

So when I try to explain that to people, think of the thing you're most passionate about in life, and then one day, in an instant, it's taken away and you're not allowed to do it. Do it anymore. Because that's what I went through. So I felt sorry for myself and I had on the lounge and I think it got to the point where and this is sort of over a couple of weeks, months and different things sitting there and I'm just sitting on the lounge eleven

o'clock in the morning. I hadn't trained, and normally I would train every day, and I just basically had to give myself an upper cut and get up stupid and the thing that may evated me. I've seen you know, I'm crying poor, Well, what's happened to me? I lost a job, but I've got opportunity, so it wasn't that bad. So it sort of picked myself up and got on with things.

on Netflix. It was a massive hit at the time. For me, it just felt that the female victim of that homicide was completely relegated to a footnote. And then obviously we've seen some other true crime work where the

reverse has happened. I mean, I think the Teacher's Pet is an example where absolutely like a female victim who had been forgotten and justice had never been achieved, but because of your lifelong work with victims, your advocacy, your actual cold hard record in you have, as the title says, I catch killers and people have you know, justice has been achieved because of work done by you and your team. How does that sit with you? Do you agree that

there is some exploitation? Where do you draw the line?

victims and the interests of victims. To exploit that situation, I think there's a fine line. And that's when I talk about the way I Catch Killers podcast. I give everyone the platform, so I'm not telling the listener what view they should take, but allowing them to understand it, not glorifying the crime. Understanding the ramifications the impact that has on people. I think that gets lost and I sometimes the true crime podcast just get polished up, and

to me, that's not what crimes about. People find it interesting when I'm sitting down speaking to victims of crime, and it could be in the most horrend the situations where they've lost family members, multiple family members or things like that, and they hear me laughing and laughing with the people I'm speaking with. That's how you handle the emotion. It's not disrespectful to the victims. It's a fact that it's a fact of life. That's the way that people

have got to get through. So quite often I'll have victims of crime on there, but they still find joy. But that's about surviving. That's about surviving crime. Some of the podcasts and I don't want to be critical of the podcast because they bring in other types of podcasts, because they bring in a level of difference that I don't have. But that's what I'm proud of with By Catch Killers is that I never forget where I've come

from and I never forget the impact. And so people have got a story and they're allowed to tell the story. But the interest You've said about who's the listeners on true crime podcasts, like why women are interested? I get to asked that question a lot. I've heard other people answer the question. Some people say, and I'm making a general comment, but women think they can change people, which

I hadn't heard that. That wasn't my comment. But women listen and think, Okay, well, if someone's gone off track, maybe they needed this, maybe they needed that. I think it comes down to this is my take on it. The world of crime is fascinating because we always want to see what's behind the curtain, and with true crime podcasts you get to see we like to might come from a kid, like a scary movie or whatever. In

the early days. We want to find out, you know, we want to be shocked, and it just makes what can be a fairly normal life a little bit more interesting. But I think the thing that really kicks in and I think if we're all on us, we've gott to put our hands up to it. We all think we're detectives, we've got an inquiry in mind, and everyone thinks, give me the facts als of it. And I think that's just human nature. I think it's funny. I've been I've

now been out of the business. I'm one of those chair critics that I think this person's done it or that person. But I think that's in our nature. We're curious and we want to solve things, so I think that sort of buys into it. But also that side of life that people generally don't get to see, but they can have a look without any danger associated with it, So I think that's where the interest comes.

But before that, of course, there had been Underbelly Badness, which was the fifth series of the famous Underbelly franchise on nine and the series aired in twenty twelve, where a character based on You was played by Matt Nabel. Whether it was that or before that, you obviously were a lot more high profile than the average homicide detective. Even before the William Terrell case, When did you first become aware of the moment that you were starting to lose your anonymity.

did as a team, not just myself. It was a team effort. But that changed the landscape for me. What I found within my own organization there was some resentment, resentment from people about was he getting recognition The people that I respect, the ones that I respected as detectives, they were approach and go good on you, because they work just as hard, if not harder, than I did. And they realized it was just by fate that they've

picked up on that investigation. I could use it in my favor, and it was also detrimental in a way if I got in the witness box at court. The barristers like I was in the witness box all the time at murder trials. The barristers wanted to beat up on the that's that Gary Jubilan character from Underbelly. So that sort of worked against me my own organization. I think they became wary of me. They couldn't understand where I was coming from. My passion was doing the work.

I wasn't trying to climb the promotional ladder. I wasn't interested in that. I found that further up you went more boring. It got tied. As a chief inspector, I could use it in my favor with the crooks, like if I knock on the door and they answered the door, oh shit, that's that dude, the dude from Underbelly, and they know it's serious. So it could work work in my favor. But that gave me the sort of public profile.

There was a lot of other ones, and there's a lot of jobs that I did that didn't attract public attention, but just a few of the high profile ones. But bearing in mind, I was in homicide for over twenty years or twenty five years. I was investigating homicide, so people become aware of who you are.

things that I mean, I could speculate about that. You then as soon as people think, well, here's here's the opportunity to bring this person down, do you feel that was probably maybe, looking back, pave the way.

and I understand understand that. But what gave me a lot of strength was I got people from across the country, detectives that are high profile detectives from across the country, some of which I didn't even know, but they reached out to me and said, we've been through this same process, the same thing. You know, we got a reputation and the organization turns on you like that. It was annoying, It was frustrating the impact that have on the wiim

Tural matter. I think was devastating. There are other investigations that I was working on that I just had to well, I wasn't allowed to work on them anymore. So that hurt me more than losing my career. The fact that I'd made the commitment to William Tyrell's Families, foster and biological, I'd do everything humanly possible and other investigations that was

all taken away. And so it was hurtful. But a good friend of mine and I had a lot of good people reach out to me, and one bit of advice I've got was, you know, you can take opportunity here. You can even embrace You've got a whole world open to you now and embrace it, or you could wallow in yourself pity, but you'll get one time wallowing in yourself pity and everyone going, Okay, we've heard that before. Nick Caldos, a deputy commissioner he left the police before me.

He reached out and said, Gary, you will see the world is so much bigger outside the police. You think the police is a big world, but you're very insular in the way that you think, like who's going to be the next commissioner and all that. When it's all said and done, who cares other than people within the police. He said, wait till you see the world world outside, and he said, you know, there's so much on offer outside there. And I found that. Yeah.

right now, there's no way of getting through this. I think these stories of resilient and of thinking, oh, it's never going to be better than what I had before, But you're living proof that even though you don't know it at the time, even the hardest moments can be the start of a whole new chapter.

It was a wake up call for me and I had to I'm proud of the fact I sit here, proud of the fact that I always thought I love being in the police, but I didn't need to be in the police. And I think there's people that hide behind the fact that they've got power with a badge and the authority that comes with the police. I was never beholding to the police. I did it because I loved it. I knew I could make a life for myself out soide police, But policing is what I chose

to do as my vacation and my passion. I'm proud of the fact that I've had to put it to the test and Okay, take my gun, take my badge, take my power to take everything away from me. And look, I'm still standing. I'm still surviving and quite enjoying myself

and coming into the media. I'm always one that believes you've got to pay your dues, and it was confronting that I still to this day, five years down the track and I've managed to carve out a career in the media, I've still got that imposter syndrome feeling about me, going what am I doing here? Like I think the first article I wrote for the paper was on the front page, Like how terrifying. I wish I paid more attention.

So that's why I sort of keep pushing and pushing.

And then there was a period in time when I became a homicide detective and I strived for that and I was so excited when I'm actually a homicide detective working cases and then leading cases. And then it got to a point where I looked around and thought, I am the most ex experient's homicide detective. There there's no one else I can confer with. And I say that there their peers that I would consult with on difficult cases.

But that was fairly confronting when you sort of look around and go, okay, well, if this murder happens, who's going to do it? And I remember saying and someone thought I was a bit cocky and arrogant. That someone was saying a boss. I didn't quite agree with what

she was saying. And she was talking about the importance of career development and working your way up the career ladder, and I said, you know what my dream is is if you're interested, because you've told me what your dream is and what you want to achieve, and it's climbing up the corporate ladder. Within the police, I want to be if the Prime Minister gets murdered, I want to be the person they call to investigate the prime minister

being murdered. That is that's where my expertise is. So that's the one thing that I'm confident in saying that I was good at in life, and I'd fail at more things, not successful at homicide investigation. That just saw of worked for me. I understood the science behind that, the psychology behind it, and the passion that you needed to investigate homicide.

of my team. Producer at Fabulous Dan Box, Anina Young, and news dot com dot are you witness William Tyrel? Where are you in terms of being reconciled with the case, Do you think that there will ever be close there? And how are you feeling about your connection with that and the family at this point in your life and career.

I think I'm as confused as a public as the information that's got out, not just blaming the police, media or reported on things that I know are not not correct, and everyone's got an opinion what I think in terms of closure, I think there really needs and I've said this and I'll say it again, I think there needs to be some form of inquiry what's happened with that investigation. I'm not seeing things come out at the inquest that

I thought irrelevant. I led that investigation for four years, documented all decisions I made and the directions the investigation was headed in and I am quite confused the way it's played out and publicly how the foster mother has been nominated as a person of interest. I make this point when I took the investigation over five months after

William's disappearance. In the handover from Detective Chief Inspector hands Rupp, who was running the investigation to start with, he told told in the hand up that the family have been eliminated. When I was running the investigation, I had another look at the family. There was a member of the strikeforce that wanted to explore some aspects of it very vigorously. Had a look at the family again overt and covert

investigative techniques. I came away from that very confident that the foster mother and foster father for that matter, had no knowledge or involvement in William's disappearance. The foster mother gave evidence in support of me at my hearing and was also critical of senior police, and these are just the facts and the timing of it. Then she becomes a person of interest after she's criticized senior Police, and that's been leaked to the media, and it's been leaked

to the media. The brief of evidence was sent to the DPP. I think that was eighteen months ago. There's no decision that's come back. Something about this just does not feel right. And I am still passionate about the William Tyrel matter. I can't let it go. I won't let it go. And it's not me losing perspective and it's not me trying to justify my position. I think we, and I'm still including myself as a police officer in this term, should be judged on the way that investigation

has been handled. And I don't know how the public could possibly have confidence in what's going on. There seems to be there was a cranial in question. When we we've heard for eighteen months and we've heard the Commissioner of Police saying there's only one suspect pointing the finger at the foster mother and there's no evidence to support that. You can't make allegations allegations like that. I've been criticized about things in the William Teral matter, and I'm caught

up in the internal conflict, which is disappointing. So I'm not stepping away saying I'm innocent, but I'd just like the full facts to come out, and I know with the witness William Yrrell podcast, I know the effort that Dan's put into that, and I'm hoping that gives a public a clearer understanding of what is the information out there, because I think they'd be shocked if they fully understood

what's going on with this investigation. So, in light of my very lengthy answer, clearly I haven't haven't given up, and the thing that we should all be hang on to the fact a young child has disappeared. That shouldn't get lost in all the politics and all the infighting and all that we all should be working in the same direction to bring some closure and that therein lies my frustration. Have not even been able to do a handover, Like, how can you take someone off an investigation working on

for four years without a handover? And it wasn't me spitting the dummy saying no, I don't want to I'm not going to speak to you because you've been horrible to me. I'm saying I will help in any way I can. I turned up at the inquest in my suit, ready to give evidence. How can you have an inquest without hands Rup hasn't been called as a witness. He ran the investigation for five months. I haven't been called as a witness. I ran the investigation for four years.

And Dave Laidlaw, who's run the investigation for six years, hasn't been called as a witness. I haven't seen anything like it.

and the impact it's had on the foster parents. And I say this, the people that have pointed the finger at the foster mother if they find if they found out that that's not not correct, I don't know how they can sleep at night with themselves because they have destroyed a person's life. And yeah, and I've been criticized of it, there was criticism of things I did. I still stand by what I did. The courts have criticized me. I've got to accept the accept the findings of the court.

But I also believe the courts are only as good as the information that's been provided to them. So there's so much damage, so many lives have been impacted upon, and yeah, we've got to got to find finances. But coming back to Willims disappeared and then the lives that have been destroyed around will and whether it's a biological family or the foster foster family, but it's just to me, it seems like an ongoing nightmare for them.

of the last few years. And I mean that in a good way actually, So as I say it's a little bit unexpected, some people might think that Gary Jubilan is you know, I've brought him on to talk a little bit about wellness among other things. But your producer Emily told us that you've been meditating for decades. Now, When did that start?

too much on the hard training. You need to do some soft training. So hard training being the hard physical sweating, exhaustion, soft training being the meditation. Chigong was a practice I first got into, which is like I think tai chi, it's like a moving form of meditation. Because I could see them doing things physically that I couldn't, I'm thinking, I want a piece of it. I want a piece of that. So I got into got into chigung fairly early. And I got to say, in chigong meditation yoga, you

can imagine the classes back back then. And I'd walk in and what do you do I'm a cop, and everyone just look at me and go, this is weird police. Within the police, I would I would talk about, yeah, talk about yeah, I was boxing, I was kick boxing, doing kung fur. But I also do this meditation and we'd go away a lot in homicide, so yeah, people that I work with sometimes would be sharing the room and go, what the fuck are you doing if I

was sitting there cross legged or meditating. But I found that, I found it. Really it's really beneficial for me. And I've continued the practice all through my life. And it really I was fortunate enough. And I say fortunate enough because I think I was lucky in regards or just something that kept me on track. I didn't have time off in the thirty four years I was in the police.

I always I could always maintaintain my health and the stresses that you get from work, Like sometimes in homicide, I want to come out, I just want to jump in a boxing ring and get kicking, kicked in the head or punched in the head, and that settles me down because you're only focusing on that, you're not stressed about that. But other times you come home really hardwired.

You've been on a job that you might be up for forty eight hours, you're barking out orders or things are happening, You're making big decisions, and I realized that I'm now the step with the rest of the world basically, And what Chigool, meditation and yoga gave me is it it was sort of something I can keep in my back pocket that I could use whenever I knew where I felt. I had to bring myself down, so I practice.

I got to one point where it became because I get addicted to something, so it became I've got to meditate in the night in the morning, and that became stressful, stupid. It's all about feeling better. So I've done the practice long enough to know I know when I need it. And what I explained to people with meditation, some people think you can just I can drag someone off the street that's never meditated before and they can sit there and just meditate. It's like me dragging you off the

street and telling you to run a marathon. You need to practice and develop those skills. I've got those skills and I can use it so I could maybe I have a stressful interview here, I could walk out, go home, and just calm my mind in ten to fifteen minutes

through meditation and movement. So I've had some interesting experiences with it, like I've gone to yoga retreats through Indonesia and over in Nepal and different different things like that, and it's opened my mind up to a lot of things and it takes me very much out of my comfort zone and it's worked for me. Post Traumatic stress is a big, big ticket item. A lot of people talk about post traumatic stress. When I left the police people and they weren't. They were trying to do the

right thing by me. They're going, Gary, you've been doing homicide for twenty years, you're stress, You're running all these jobs. You know, go off sick and I've gone. But I'm not sick. I am not not sick, but you could be because of this and that. What I think has helped me all the way through through my career is the soft training, the hard training. But I do train. I train every day. If I don't train, I'm out

of whack. I was going to say I'm not a good person, which is probably true, but I just feel out of whack. So I make a habit of it. And when I'm at my most stressed. If I train and get myself into pointed in the right direction, it's so beneficial. So when I go through and we all go through stresses in life, that's and you know, on the podcast, I get to see people who have gone

through the most enormous stress situations. But I feel like I've got an advantage on people because I know what to do to bring myself self down and it's helped me time and time again. Certainly, when my police career came to an end, I didn't have employment straight away. I was used to talking to one hundred people a day. That was basically cut off. I allowed to talk to any police basically sitting at home and I was struggling.

But then after the wake up call where I sort of slapped myself across the face, get up and train, And so I just trained harder and harder and got myself fit and ready to take on the world again. I would do that in the cops as well. Sometimes if I knew a big job was coming up, I would be training really hard in knowing I need to be sharp, I need to be ready, and healthy mind.

Healthy body leads to a healthy mind. I honestly believe, because I couldn't understand with the siffers that I trained under, all the different masters I trained under, I've gone a sort of counterintuitive We're beating the crap out of each other here, and then we're sitting there not singing Kumbai Aar,

but sitting there chanting or whatever. And it was described to me, and I think this is a simple way of describing it is that if you've got if you're not physical just the way you carry yourself, your shoulders, you've got your blinkers on, so physically you're not walking carrying yourself properly, that leads to your mental outlook. And it made sense to me, like when I feel like I'm fit and things are going well, I'm up, I'm

looking and my mind's open open to things. When I'm not feeling the best, it's sort of my mind narrows down. So I saw the balance there. But I've had some interesting experiences, like I was doing going through a particularly busy period at that homicide that was what the Underbelly series was based on, and that was a couple of

years of chaos. And I went to a place in Chinatown, choy Lee Foot and did chigong there and there's this old Chinese master there and didn't speak a lot of English, but I would walk into the chigung class and it was a classic. It felt like you're in the back streets of Hong Kong. You walk up behind the restaurant, up the stairs and you go into the class and he'd look at me and go, you took cranky, mister policeman and slapped me on the face like that type

of thing. And then you're sitting there and you just can't calm down. And it was so beneficial to me. So and I am mindful of people that suffer post traumatic stress, and I got a bit of an understanding about it because it's great that you can learn from your kids. My son is in the army and a part of the he's also psychologist and part of his

PhD is post traumatic stress for the military. And I often talk to him and he's early and his career is starting out, but talk about the benefits of training, and he sees that that's so so important. And everyone that I see that's suffering from post traumatic stress and I'm probably sympathying it too much, but you get a sense of achievement if you get up in the morning and do something. I train every morning Johnny Lewis, this

is the boxing trainer. This is something that's beneficial from the cops because the ovil is just near my place where a train, So every morning five point thirty I trained with him. I also think good health and mental well being comes from being around having a tribe. And I lost my tribe when I was cut off from the police. That was my tribe. That was I'm a policeman.

You've been kicked out of your tribe. But with this group earned a bunch of sort of all sorts that turn up for boxing, so a whole cross section of community, but there's a community feel. We have a bit of a laugh, bit of a chat and talk and then do the training and you walk away feeling good. So I'm also mindful of the need to have that social outlook. During COVID, which I hate to mention because I think

it was handled just appallingly. Never once did I hear anyone talk about how about we all just try and get a little bit fitter and get out and exercise. During that I was living on my own and there was times during those lockdowns basically six Yeah, what was the longest one? Three months or whatever on your own. And I'd get up in the morning and I say, start talking to myself. I knew, yeah, I'm joking here, But morning Gary, Morning Gary, what are we up to today? Gary?

Don't they Gary? Like I realized I was boring at that point in time too, But as I could chat to me, but that I would just I would train. That was my thing, my salvation, and exhaust yourself physically, then you can concentrate on what else you have to do for the day.

these things you said? It's not like you can't just go in and do it any more than you would do a half marathon. So what would some hacks be for anyone listening that doesn't have this as part of their tool.

to set the world on fire. But they come in inspired. Well, New Year's resolution is, I'm sure we've all done. I'm going to get fit this year. Just build up in mentally, don't take on the world. And the same with meditation. You will get in there and the first time you're in there, you'll be looking around going what the hell is going on going on here? But gradually, gradually you learn. And I talked to Goong. I also studied with a

CIFU over in Perth. I was spent a lot of time living over in Perth at one stage, and such a science. So the more I learned, the more I realized I didn't know. So I take a little bit away from everyone and what works for me. So I've got a practice that works for me. So I just tell people one step at the time. Don't think it's going to be the fix everything, but it's something that you can add. And what I describe because people go, well, what happens when you meditate? What happens when you can

let yourself go? I liken it to this, and I think we've all been in this position. You're lying on the lounge on the say a Sunday afternoon, you're just starting to fall asleep, and you know that really relaxed moment that you've had a big no or whatever, really relaxed moment and you're just drifting off. That's what I find that I achieve with meditation. I'm holding that moment

and it's like watching the river. This is a good way of describing it, because you've got your thoughts going in your head, watching the river with things flowing down me your thoughts. Just let them pass, just let them go through. Just let them drift through your mind, because we could be sitting here meditating and there could be a car dipping the horn, because sometimes that's the environment

you're meditating in. Just let it drift through. And these I'm by no means an expert, but I've learnt by experts and these are the sort of things that I've taken away and it does work. I love that.