EP: 143 Stacy Fore & Stephanie Gorton- Critical Conversations

How do we step up and make sure that our team feels comfortable coming to us to address anything? Whether it's with clients, whether it's with vendors, whether it's with other team members. Being able to handle sexual harassment is obviously a very important issue and to people who are incredible advocates for women in the trades and making sure that they are well taken care of. And two very strong voices for women in the trades as well.

So thank you so much for joining us on this early morning and making time for it and being able to address something that could be a touchy subject for some people.

So in case anybody is unaware of Stacy and Stephanie. So Stacy is the co-owner of Culture Play down in Oklahoma. And Stephanie is I don't know your exact title, Stephanie, but head honcho, head cheese at Inner Guy down in California. So I'm happy to have you guys on one topic that I know Stacy, you really wanted to get into just kind of the ethics surrounding, coaches, right? And individuals, people, business owners you name it, right? And when it comes to certain instances of this nature.

So walk us through what you have on your mind in regards to that.

I don't even know how to stress that when someone is trusting you to have to learn from you, to help guide themselves in their own self-development. And that's really all coaches do. You know, our job is to ask clarifying questions so that you can find the answers yourself and help yourself make better choices or life development skills. When someone's trusting you with that, you have the highest level of integrity obligations to those, humans.

You're helping them make critical life decisions for themselves. And oftentimes those decisions are not just impacting them, it's impacting people around them, their families, their children, their very lives, sometimes like life or death decisions. And so the integrity that has to come with that has to be spotless. It just, there is no wiggle room for me on that at all.

I know I need to look around the workplace and notice if a male employee is over at a female employee's desk or vice versa for too long. I know I need to pay attention when people leave together. I know I need to make sure that the women who work past dark are not alone.

I know that it's my responsibility as far as being ethical to talk about it throughout the year, not just when something happens but what's appropriate and what's not appropriate, and make sure that if somebody can't speak up for themselves, that I'm at least in tune enough with our team to pick up on that for them and to ask a question. And then to, I think do exactly what Stacy would do or has done, is to be the strength for her team, confront that individual and stop the behavior immediately.

I know she made a comment about. Whether or not somebody thought she was handling it the right way or the wrong way, I can tell you that would be different for everybody, the opinion of how that was handled.

But I can tell you that her anger and her frustration was completely justified for being upset about, you know, and I don't know how, the entire situation unfolded, but I do know that as a leader, you need to be a shepherd over your people and teach them how to be aware of and how to recognize situations and set the tone for culture within your organization.

And now obviously there's certain examples where you're like, okay, that definitely is, but there's a lot of gray area within that. And so I guess walk us through what you see in terms of sexual harassment and what it looks like before it becomes blatant.

And, it ends up always being positive. I've never been made to feel uncomfortable, but in previous experiences it's been like, oh, hey boss name, can I talk to you about something? Yeah, let's go grab a drink after work. that's fine if you feel comfortable with that. But immediately I knew I felt a little bit of like, heat in my chest and at 21, I think at that time I didn't feel comfortable enough to say I'm, that's inappropriate.

I'm not going to have a drink with you, or, I just don't feel comfortable with that. No, thank you. I literally felt like, and not that he was forcing me, but it started with I feel like if I don't, he's gonna be like, oh, you're approved. Oh my gosh, she can't even have fun. But, because then, right then I realized, oh, my body got hot and I felt uncomfortable because in the office before that, what I dismissed as like harmless comments.

So you guys can say to another woman, and I want every man to feel completely safe as well, to say, wow, you look really nice today. That's a comment. And it's a compliment. And you guys should, everybody should be able to say that, but whoa, damn, you look good. That's different. That is different. It has a different intention behind it. And I knew it when I heard it. I just thought at 21 you think, okay, maybe that's just the way they talk. Maybe that's just the way it is.

Maybe I'm being too sensitive and instead of saying, Excuse me. What did you just say? Why would you say that then? Like, can you rephrase that? Why don't you be a little bit more professional? I didn't have the confidence to say that at that time, at that age. So I just smiled and laughed it off. Like I didn't feel right saying thank you cuz I didn't want it and I didn't welcome it. But I also felt like I was gonna start a problem and maybe lose approval if I said, hey, that was inappropriate.

And those comments continued, like send Stephanie up to talk to them. They'll be much more amenable or agreeable if they see her face and not mine. Okay. So then you're like, do I say something about that or do I not? And then you get a text after work. Outside about non-work stuff when you haven't really developed a safe relationship with this male. And it does happen that you do develop friendships and then you guys know each other's kids and spouses and whatever, and it's positive.

But then, oh, hey, I just forgot I wanted to tell you something at work. Okay, so then also by the way, your hair looked really nice today. Also. I love that dress on you also, whatever that is. And you're like, I don't know what to do with that. And then what you're telling someone kinda is like, I'm not uncomfortable with that. It's okay to keep going. And then the guy wound up saying like, well, you didn't say anything. You obviously wanted me to keep doing that.

So I think I wish that I would've had the confidence at that time just at that comment to say, Hmm, how about you rephrase that? That makes me uncomfortable and that usually stops men in their tracks, like, I'm uncomfortable. No thank you.

But in those situations on tho those one-on-ones, if something isn't making you feel comfortable how can one I guess gain some more confidence to be able to acknowledge and say, hey, you know what, that comment really didn't make me feel that comfortable and, and push back a little bit.

I can confidently say I've looked back on self-reflection many, many, many times. I never noticed any unwanted comments and really none even wanted, right? Like, that's just not who I am in the workplace ever anyways. But I just mean like I never noticed anything. Doesn't mean I wasn't there. It just means that I didn't recognize it at the time. It didn't make me feel uncomfortable.

Which I think we need to talk about that being the key here from a legal perspective and from an ethical perspective. Cuz every human is gonna be different, right? Stephanie and I are both women, we both are in the trades, but we might both have different feelings or uncomfortable levels in a conversation. And it's really okay just for women to say like, hey, I don't know that I love that comment. Is there any way that maybe we could just not talk about what I wore today from now on, right?

And then you give the person the opportunity to grow and change their behavior and then hopefully you move on and this never happens again. Having said that, I've never had that opportunity to grow and learn from confidence. my dad just taught me how to whoop people's asses. Like that's what my dad taught me. I'm just gonna be honest. Like he didn't teach me anything other my dad was a Hell's Angel. If you wanted to hang with dad, you hunted, you fished, you rode bikes and that was that.

And if people mess with you, he had two daughters. He taught us how to fight and that was just that. So I just, my heart aches because I thought until recently that I had, I thought, this is where it kills me. I thought that I had passed along that confidence to my staff. I thought that I was a good enough leader. I thought, I'm gonna cry all cuz this has just been hard. I thought I was a good enough leader and I thought that they knew I would take people at the kneecaps and the fact that.

They still were shamed into silence kills me. So we're learning how to grow in confidence together and how to recognize these signs and how to trust each other with truths that we can support each other in. I thought we had that, and that's okay that we didn't, but we are gonna move forward together in, in a way that makes sense like this.

To protect themselves almost to say, oh, it wasn't that bad, or maybe he didn't mean that. Right. Similar to your story, Stephanie. It's heartbreaking and I've got a young daughter and I don't ever want her to be in that position where she feels like she can't stand up for herself and she can't speak or speak for others and stand up for them if they, they don't have that confidence. I don't know if I actually have a question or a point to make after that, but it's just, heartbreaking.

Because I don't think you can build the confidence overnight. Now, if I walk into a tech shop and they go, oh my gosh, is she gonna manage her account? Hey, could we get a hug? Could we get a hug? I don't even feel threatened or bothered by that anymore. And that's me personally, like it's not belittling to me cuz I'm so confident in what I can bring to the table. But the moment that that's said, I speak up and I say something. I don't know, usually emasculating or like very blunt.

And I find that once you say something very blunt, then immediately they're like, whoa, that's not the one to approach anymore. But like I said, it can be social media now, cuz now it's kind of confusing if somebody's in your dms saying, Hey, what's up? Nice to meet you. And if you're married and you don't appreciate that approach or you know that if maybe me, if some guy's DMing me about personal things, all I have to think about is like, oh, would my husband appreciate this?

Probably not and then I'm like, Hey man, let's keep it professional. I don't need to talk personal stuff with you. But for a 21 year old or a 25 year old who's never been in that position before you need to recognize that if it's not about work and if they're asking you personal questions that your red light needs to go off. And at the moment your body, you're gonna feel it, you're gonna feel hot and embarrassed and sh and ashamed the moment that that happens.

For some reason you feel like, did I do something to cause him to act this way? Did I invite this? Am I responsible for his feelings? Well, I don't wanna be mean, I don't wanna say something back and like, hurt his feelings. Well then ask somebody for help. That's the out cuz you can't build con confidence overnight. We can't force you to say, I'm, uncomfortable. I do personally know that feeling when you're frozen and then looking back, you're like, oh, I should have done this.

Or I, I should have done that. Or like, I don't wanna say anything now cause it's embarrassing. And then, okay, so in the, real life text situation, somebody's sending you text messages and then the first response from a lot of women is like, I'm just not gonna respond. And maybe he'll get the hint that I'm not responding. Okay, that's not working. And now I see his text and I'm like, I know that it's gonna be something gross and I don't wanna see it. Okay, I'll just block him it's everything.

But confront it. Like, let me just try to minimize this cuz you don't wanna be linked to it. You don't want your name to be drugged through the mud. You don't wanna really go through that. And then you gotta go home and explain to your significant other, all the stuff that's happening because, and maybe you're afraid your spouse will say, what did you do to make him think that that was okay?

So there are all these feel, all these feelings that come up for women that shouldn't, but just because we are saying today, don't feel like that. Tell him, Hey, knock it off. Hey dude, not in a million years. I am never gonna sleep with you. Like that's what I say. But not everybody can say that. Like, I'll be like, what did I say yesterday? Like, I'm not gonna touch you with a 30 foot pole if you paid me tonight's Powerball winnings. Never. And they're like, they laugh it off.

I've never approached again. Normally, like they're like, Ooh. But if you don't feel like that, if you don't feel strong, if you don't feel confident, and if you don't want your name dragged through the mud, just ask for help. Just send a text. Just go to someone who you know is strong.

I own this place, I run this place. So I have no thin skin at all. You can joke around me and it's not gonna bother me at all. But my responsibility is to make sure you're not bothering other people.

So the other day I walked into the classroom and I'm hanging up the coffee cuts in the morning to start the coffee, all the coffee that's in there and I've got four or five guys come in earlier and there must have been a joke going on because I walked in on the punchline and the punchline went something like this. Wouldn't it be terrible to walk around with a hardon for 24 hours? That was the punchline. And I looked at him and I said, that'd be awful.

That doesn't mean I can do it with other people, right? It just means that for me, that wasn't offensive to me. But if I would've said, Hey, listen, I don't really wanna hear about your personal problems like that, that means no more. Right? That means no more. But just because we're saying that doesn't mean that every woman or every person who's ever been harassed sexually or otherwise is ever, is just suddenly gonna stand up and say, this isn't gonna happen.

So using those tools is really important, but you are screwed. I mean, I feel this way, like more so now than ever. I feel like you kind of are screwed either way and so my encouragement to women listening to this is if you are going to be, if you feel screwed, either way, take the road of telling them off or take the road of asking for help or take the road of having like a quick comeback at them to shut them off. Don't self-sacrifice. Because that's what happened. Self sacrifice.

You know, it's amazing. I got a phone call this morning. I got a phone call this morning, and the question was this, I mean, 60 text messages, are you sure it wasn't mutual? And I'm not mad at this person. I actually think this person was trying to learn. I really do. I'm not mad at all. So if this person's watching, I'm not mad at you. I just want this to be a lesson this is how I explained it.

Sometimes it, sounds like a text message that says, Hey I was really thinking about you since the last time I saw you. Oh, okay. Why? Or LOL Haha. Must left of impression, right? LOL has become like a sluff it off. We're not really laughing at your dumb ass, we're just LOLing you. Right? That's how this is gonna go. And so then it becomes, oh, they, didn't say stop immediately, so I must have permission. Right? You don't have permission. You didn't have the permission to send the first one.

You didn't have a permission to say the first wrong thing. And then it becomes, I'm isolated. It must be me. I'm the target. I won't say anything for the greater good of the team cuz everyone else seems to like this person. Everyone else gets along with this person. And this is just in general, I mean, honest to God, this just happens all day long.

And so then what happens is you just retreat and you don't say anything at all until you're in shambles and it all crumbles and so it, doesn't matter. I don't care how many, I don't care how many the first is wrong. And from the first moment it was wrong. And it's just now learning those skills, right? Which is what we're hopefully teaching people, is learning those skills of how to set the boundaries, what words to use, how to communicate that. I always just say clear as kind.

So let's just be clear with people and let's just say, hey I'm so glad you liked my outfit today. I also liked it, but it makes me a little uncomfortable when people mention my outfit. So could we just not talk about that anymore? Or something to that effect, or would you talk to Bob about his outfit today? I don't know. Yeah.

And I think, Stephanie, you mentioned this yesterday, is that, you know, we're not, the point isn't about saying, you know, that, men should walk on eggshells here with everything, right? that's really not part of it. And like, Stephanie, you yourself, you've mentioned you've been part of some pretty allude conversation that we're funny, right? The idea is what's not funny is when when a woman is made to feel uncomfortable, unsafe, or make unwanted jokes in advances, right?

that's this distinguishing area you know, between it, right? So I guess Stephanie, walk us through your thought process behind that particular, you know, comment and how, I guess there's more, I don't wanna say defining lines because it's. It's very gray Right on it, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

A Raider told a joke on a conference call and it was, you like it at one point because he feels comfortable enough to be himself with the team. And then you're like, but you have to know your audience. If we were out at a bar and you told that joke in a group, it'd be pretty funny. But we were on a conference call. That's probably not that funny. Like it's just being like that.

So boundaries are when you feel uncomfortable and I don't know how to explain it other than you get a guilty, shameful, hot feeling like you shouldn't be doing that. And even if you feel like, I don't know if this is right or wrong, that's probably a good indicator it's not. Right. I have very positive, healthy relationships with some males at work and contractors alike, right? So I go in and there's a lot of talk and there's some jokes and of course they've been, that's what she said.

And I try to beat them to the punch even cuz I know it's coming. So I'm just gonna be like, where's the, that's what she said, guys. Like, that's, I knew that was gonna happen, but if somebody is DM-ing me or like, hey I just wanted to tell you, I was thinking about you. My immediate response is, that's uncomfortable. I'm a married person. I don't appreciate the comment and nor do I want any relationship with you like that.

So whatever you thought is not it, and there's no other way to describe it except for a combination of shame, guilt, embarrassment, and heat in your body that you know this is wrong. And that's where the boundary lies. And it's different for everybody. I really hate that one. Bad Apple ruins it for everybody. So saying, oh, don't talk about my outfit, like, Stacy made that comment. Whereas I probably would differ and I would say, talking about the outfits fine, talking about my ass is different.

Don't make a comment on the shape of my body. I don't want you looking at it that way. Rather than saying, oh, you, you look great today. Now if it's like emojis and kissy faces and all that stuff, like who in this panel right now would say that, especially as a leader, you should be texting anyone of your team members or somebody that's trusted you to come in and teach them with emojis and hug space. And those are little, tiny, innocent icons expressing emotions, though.

That's what they were meant for. And now in 2023, you're like so confused. Like, did you just blow a kiss at me through a text message? Did you just wink at me? Did you just like, what does that mean? And so if that makes you uncomfortable, you should, you should stop that behavior immediately but also, I don't wanna work in a place where it's black and white and you have to tiptoe over everything you say. And don't say that and don't say this because somebody will get offended.

But you know the difference between cornering someone and like gaslighting them with text messages and like saying, what, you don't wanna talk to me? Wow. What did I do to you? Wait, what? How did this get flipped out around on me? And that's how that happens is you don't respond or you say, no, I'm not interested. Wow, you didn't have to be so rude about it. I didn't know that I pissed you off so badly. Cause it's like, oh, let me flip the situation because I'm not gonna take responsibility.

And so an appropriate conversation like that is maybe the guy does think she's single this is not that situation. Stacy, maybe he does think she's single and he sends her a dm, Hey, what's up? And then she goes, oh, you know what? I'm married or I have a boyfriend. And he goes, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be disrespectful. And then that conversation stops. I think that's a perfectly healthy situation. And a lot of people meet people at work, right?

When they're single, they meet people, they connect with them, and they build relationships at work. And so there's this dance that goes back and forth like, hey, do you wanna go to lunch? Yes, I would love to go to lunch, though. They go to lunch. Not that we're encouraging that, but it happens. and if you feel happy when someone approaches you and you're single and in position to accept that, and that doesn't feel like that hot, ashamed feeling, then you are allowed to go for that.

And then you say, you know what? I don't think this is working out anymore. I don't think I wanna see you anymore. Okay. And then the guy says, please just meet me one more time. let's just meet for 10 seconds. Let's just meet for 10 minutes. I mean, can I just buy you a coffee? I just have one more thing to say. That's the boundary. I said, I don't wanna see you anymore. You're trying again. I'm saying no, and you're going here. Look at these pictures here, do this, here, do that.

That's the boundary.

You know, Stacy, you talked about how you felt like you were a better leader and you felt like you let your, your people down essentially, and, them not coming forward, standing up for themselves, et cetera. One, I think you were a fantastic leader because the fact that they did come to you, Even though it was a little later in the process is still better than a lot of other organizations that are out there that have kept this hidden for years.

So as a leader, how can we make that opportunity a little bit more available for the team? How do we bring it up more frequently? How often is too much? How can we have more of these conversations within our organization so that this stuff stops when someone feels uncomfortable and they're willing to stand up and just say, I'm done. No more.

Here's some examples. They're not hard set in stone because, again, to this entire podcast point that everyone has a little bit of their own boundaries in their own comfortable thing. But every company I think should have some lines in the limit about, about what. we're gonna talk about at work, right? Like what conversations are we gonna have at work openly in group settings with everyone around not individualized one-on-one conversations. Because women have those conversations too.

Stephanie is not wrong we have those conversations, but we're just a little different sometimes in the place and the time that we have them. And then I think that you make it very clear heart to heart with your people. That if you're not comfortable setting those boundaries or speaking up for yourself, that let me be your voice there. ethically and legally, I'm obligated to stop the behavior that you report.

For anyone who's listening, you are legally obligated to take measures that stop the, the behavior from reporting. And listen to me, I wanna make this very clear. Stop these investigations. Stop them. They're not legally required. Just stop them. Stop having a bunch of people at the table at hashing out who was wrong and who was right. Listen, you go and you say, this was said, it's making this person uncomfortable. It's not going to be tolerated. End of story. just don't let it happen again.

And then we're, kosher, right? And then it's gonna take more men than it is women. Because my stance is women could change it. We would have already. So it's gonna take more men than women recognizing the behavior and having one-on-one corrective conversations about the behavior they see individually with the people that they see it from. And that doesn't mean like, hey, I'm gonna fire you.

That means like, hey, I heard this and I'm wondering if that was the best opportunity, choice of words or circumstance in which you should have applied that conversation. Do you have mutual consent? is there, you know, if something right. Investigate that a little bit in a one-on-one conversation, but train your leaders better. And for the love of Jesus, take advantage of trainings when they come up.

Don't just sign some stupid piece of paper that says, I did training with my team and slip it down. The thing for some Department of Labor audit later, don't do that. Actually have the trainings actually give human beings the opportunity to learn right from wrong. Instead of saying, you taught them because if you say you did and you didn't, and they slip, it's as much on you as it is on them.

Yes. Is the thing I have to say Yes, is what I have to say. Not no. That's not required by law. Yes. Is required by law. Consent is the word. Yes. It's an affirmative decision, not a negative decision. So you were required to ask and I was required to consent in a positive affirmation, not in a no way. So people need to get that right out of their heads.

So a couple of things that you can do are, you can that really help people absorb information and get comfortable saying the words that they need to say to define their boundaries for other people are mock trainings, like you will say something to your team members and then have them recite it back. And of course it's gonna be awkward. But if you have a team of five or six people or a hundred, then you can still do that. You can still say, let's differentiate.

So let's not make all sexual harassers predators. And that's not true. Sometimes it's unintentional. How do we differentiate? How do we not make people afraid to get fired because they said something they didn't really mean or they didn't even think through? Right? Not all forms of sexual harassment are predatory. So you can give subtle feedback. Hey Mary, why don't you, let's sit down. So if I say for the third time that you say no to me, you wanna go to lunch?

Or if I say, oh, dang, you look good today. Maybe the guy's actually trying to flirt with you and not trying to attack you. Okay? So you can say, Hmm, not cool dude. That's step one. We can get realistic about that and then have her reply. Okay, so what, in the situation, people tend to do better when they've recited things before the situation actually occurs.

And then second, as a leader, your responsibility is to make sure that in no way, even at this is your best friend, the guy who comes in to train, or the HR manager you bring in, or the supervisor or whatever. There will be no retaliation at any point. You need to make that clear to everybody, even if it's you that does something out of line.

And then I wanted to give a really good, example, and this happened a couple days ago, of someone who wasn't intentionally sexually harassing, but actually had just a bit of trouble understanding that it wasn't being received because the female was subtle about her feedback. And this man actually might have a little bit of a developmental challenge. So that subtle feedback wasn't really sinking in for him. And this was actually my husband that did this.

he actually handled the situation well, so it's OK to say it. Somebody complained to him that they were receiving text messages from a male and they were unwanted. They sent screenshots of the text messages. My husband said, we'll take care of it. Teamed up with his other male co coworker who's the director. They did what they had to do, reported it to hr and then to reinforce the situation. he had a one-on-one discussion with that man and said, Hey, I get it.

You're not, this is connecting for you. So anytime you have an urge to text or ask to lunch or buy a gift or contact in any way, I want you to know that's a no. You cannot do that, but come to me and tell me the idea and tell me what you wanna do. And so the guy did, he said, you know, I was feeling really bad for texting her, so I thought I'd give her a little gift to like, say sorry. And my husband was like, no, absolutely not. You will not contact, you, will not text you, will not call.

You will not do this. And the guy was like, well, are you upset? Cause you told me here's the tool I you wanna, and I, no, no, no. You did the perfect thing. Just come talk to me. Leave her alone. And you and I can work this out. So not I wanna fire you for something subtle. But all those things need to be in training. And text back and say I'm uncomfortable.

When we look at. And you know, this might be even a question for HR guy, but also in terms of your guys' experience and opinions, how often should one be leading trainings such as this and going through, and then there's a difference, right? I mean, obviously the training you're talking about, about sitting down and doing role playing and doing mock examples, that's a very deeper dive, but then there's also continually talking about it you know, just like the culture would, right?

You know, how often do you repeat your core values to your team? You know, Amanda Triolo does it every single day. They read it out loud. But when it comes to this particular topic, how often would you say that you're talking about it in a quicker way? And how often are you going into the deeper dive trainings? Or should a person be doing it?

Just for humans in general and knew my background would just not even think about doing what happened. But this is a lesson I need people to learn. Mental health disorders are larger and deeper than people's egos, and that happened here. And so when I thought I had a great culture, and culture changes with the people that are in it, but you can maintain your core values and your integrity levels.

When I thought we continuously had that, I really thought I had my people on solid ground and I made the mistake of not talking about this type of behavior in here other than one other major time in which I avoided having another trainer on site because of what I believe would be predatorial behavior with other companies. And so I stopped that and we talked about it. We talked about why that person wasn't coming, and so I just made the mistake of not talking about it often enough.

Because there is this line in that, even leaders, I know you're struggling with right now as you're listening to this, and we wanna make this clear. Like we know there is a line of harmless, like, hey, would you like to go to lunch? That's just a question. It's not predatory in nature. It doesn't have ill intentions and maybe the person asking would love to go have lunch with you. That's great.

When someone says no, then maybe, you know, we teach people to say, Would that, just so I'm clear, would that be a no always, or is that just a no for today or a no for this time? And then also to the person answering, maybe we could just be clear and say, you know what, I don't really mix work relationships and personal relationships, or, I am not interested in going to lunch with you. Thank you for the offer. Or Hey, ask me another time. I'm just busy today. Right.

So there are different ways that we can respond to that. And we just, I have never taught those well here because I really just believed deep down in my soul that I had weaved a great culture of, of, we don't perform it here, so we're not gonna tolerate it here. And so you better believe that this will be a more high priority topic more often. And I'm super grateful because obviously we have our on staff therapist as well, so we can navigate that together in a cohesive way.

If you're put, if you're in a leadership position, and how would a person then have that conversation with the person who brought it up to say, no, I think that we need to, right. I think we should have this, we should bring it out, but that person doesn't want to. Where does a person go during that conversation?

And we, really want this person to be brought to justice and all these things, but it's your truth in your time. And so I don't want anyone to feel ashamed that they didn't say anything before. I don't want anyone to feel ashamed if they're not saying something now. And that is not what this is about. This was about me doing my part to make sure that I at least opened my mouth and put my money where my mouth is in saying we don't tolerate behavior like this.

And I won't allow women to be victimized in the future if I could have prevented it now, right? So I don't want people feeling that way. So find a friend outside of work. Find, I think every person should be in therapy. I'm in therapy. I think every human since age of three should be in therapy. Everyone knows this. Find a therapist, find a friend, find a clergy member. If that's your your thing, find someone you trust to just talk. Two, find a coach. There's life coaches galore out there.

We love nothing more than to help you find your timing, to tell your truth. and how, and when you do that, it doesn't have to be on a public forum. It doesn't have to be. it's your truth in your time and in your place, your, but find somebody to talk to because bottling it in here will just destroy you over time. So find somebody.

But this was also a, big conversation at the dinner table last night. you releasing that video shocked me. this individual happened to be someone that I never would've thought that this would've happened to. And it was interesting cuz the mother of the kids she had talked about how she was in a seminar and they posted a picture. It was just a group photo of people. It was like, pick out the predator. Who is it? can't tell. And that's the way, more often than not, it is.

And this conversation with the kids, it ended up going on for probably about an hour, hour and a half that we dove into it and we talked about it and, different things to say and different positions. And I had a very, very blunt conversation with my boys about it. Saying that it is never, ever, ever acceptable to say that, to do that. If any woman is ever uncomfortable in that situation, you stop immediately.

can flirt, you can have conversations, but if they get, if they say anything about being uncomfortable, you stop it immediately. But also being an advocate for women and being able to stand up for them as well. and it's interesting even being on a, like I played baseball with a bunch of college kids. And the language that's used there and how they talk and how they speak. Like it's, still an issue.

There, and I've had conversations with some of them around the language that they use and it's the kids are so important and to be able to have those conversations to them. I'm curious in your professional opinions I know both of you are parents as well.

Being able to work with kids, have these conversations with them so that they feel safe to be able to come forward as they grow older and so that they don't feel the way that Stephanie did at 21, where you're struggling to, figure out who you are at that time. I mean, it's difficult enough being a young woman. Being able to step forward and tell someone to stop is a really difficult thing.

We've d addressed all that, but how do we instill that kind of confidence in our children to be able to come forward and address these. Issues head on and call it what it is and get it to stop.

So because of, I had been in that situation as a teenager, very young, like two, three, as soon as you can talk started, like I never made my kids hug anybody. They didn't wanna hug. So come over here, come over here, gimme a hug. And I would, if they would say, no, I don't want to. And then I would even get in like little arguments with my family. Oh, that's so rude. Why wouldn't you have them?

Because I don't ever want her to think later when some guy says, just gimme a hug that you have to do that. So lots of interactions like that. Lots of interactions. Like this is your body and, also interactions. Like you don't have to listen to the teacher when they tell you you can't go pee. Like, I don't care. Get up and walk out. That's your body. You have to pee. Go like, do not listen to that.

And so differentiating, like just because somebody's in a position of authority does not mean whether it be me, mom, I need to talk to you about that. I don't agree with that. That was always welcome. Teachers, coaches never being alone. And so but by the time my oldest daughter was a senior in high school and she was deciding to do anything with her boyfriend at that time, she had in her mind set some rules and like boundaries. And I was actually worried for the boy.

Like, I was like, oh, she's gonna be calling the shots. And I even went as far as like telling my girls, you need to know your own body before some guy comes along and tells you what you like. You know yourself first and you decide, and even being able to say, I like that, or I don't, that's hard to learn. So very little was all those conversations. And even if it's a teacher, even if it's a coach, if you feel uncomfortable, I got, I have your back. If you say, no, I don't care what it's.

You know, I, I don't wanna dismiss how it is for young men because I know that life is hard for all of us. Learning and navigating ourselves and others, and the world has changed so significantly. In the last 20 years. I don't wanna date myself here, but I'm gonna be 50. So here we are. the world has just changed so significantly. But speaking from like a young female's perspective back in the date, it's really hard.

Like, you wanna be popular, you wanna care like what people think, but you also wanna be independent. you want the boy to like you, so how far do you have to go for the boy to like you? And then when can you say no, but still not be made fun of at school the next day. And it's terrifying as a young adult because we're still learning the world and we're still learning ourselves and, and our frontal lobes aren't connected. And so we're still learning truth and consequence.

And I think when we say like we, you know, to your point about playing baseball or softball with the college students and their, their mouths and their language and the way that they talk, it's different. It's supposed to be different. Now I want people to hear me. That doesn't mean assault or harassment is okay.

Clearly we've established that that's not okay, but it's supposed to be different because babies when they're born aren't supposed to know how to walk, and three-year-olds aren't supposed to know how to ride bikes, and college kids aren't supposed to know how to be 50. So at the time that they're learning all of these things, they're, they're learning that the goal is that hopefully you've taught them. Good. A foundry setting and good enough ethical training in boys and moral training in boys.

It says, Hey, when she said no twice, maybe she's a little uninterested, right? You don't violate someone's body ever, ever. You never put your fingers tips on someone's body without their permission. So hopefully we've set those so that harm, physical harm and, emotional distress is avoided in people but their mouths are supposed to be different, right? they're learning, they say something and they get a response that teaches them that this is not okay, this is not what we're supposed to say.

And they store that in their memory break, to play that reel forward later when that it might come out of their mouth again. And so these are just things, behaviors that we should be establishing in our children better from a young age. And I have always, the one thing I did do that Stephanie did is you don't have to touch anybody you don't wanna touch. They're not entitled to touch you and you do not need to touch them. Even to this day, I have three grown children.

The youngest is 28, the oldest is 32. And I have three grandchildren. If anyone doesn't know that I have three grandchildren and they're my life and I love them, and for most of their life I raised them. And to this day I still say, would you like to give grandma a hug? And some days my little shit, grandkids say no. And they run off to go play. And I don't say, no, come back and give grandma a hug this moment was not the moment in which they chose to interact with me physically.

And while that might break my small little grandma heart a little bit inside I have to respect what I've taught, which is that I can't force you to touch me if you don't wanna touch me. Today's just not their day. Right.

And if they do say, no thank you or no, or in any stretch or, shut it down, then you walk away, right? You remove yourself from that and don't continue to push it because obviously they're not interested. And don't continue to go down that road.

So I know that in my gym I go to a a Planet Fitness or anything. I go to like a power lifting gym. And there are the majority of like bulky dudes there. Like it's a pretty masculine environment. There's always like heavy metal playing. There's like skulls and flags and pretty hardcore lifters. But the owner there covered in tattoos, huge buff guy puts out a huge sign in front of his gym. Any man caught DMing harassing messaging approaching in this gym.

Any woman is gonna get kicked out and blackballed immediately, forever. Let them work out, leave them alone, and if I catch you doing it, you're done. So that's one approach. And then if you're running a corporation or a company like we work in something that I know that the one time that I've ever brought a concern to my partners, and at the time they were I was very new to the company and they were my bosses and there were more senior managers at Enter guy that didn't like the way I rolled in.

And there was some pretty blatant harassment, like, threatening, like harmful, physical threatening sexual comments, even going as far as to post photos online on other people's walls. Of someone that looked like kind of like a porn star. And she had tattoos and had dark hair and dark skin, and he was telling people that it was me. And then he, like, so all this stuff happened. I don't think it took. The male leaders within enter guy a full minute to address that. Like there was no hesitation.

immediately they had my back. That guy got, legally you have to like do all these steps in California, right? You have to warn and suspend and then terminate and all those things happened. It was not, and they had a very long-term relationship with this guy. It was long. And, and, and this guy had built part of the company, right? The sales from the very beginning when they first opened their doors. And he was a, he was a pretty integral part of Ner guy. And that didn't matter to them.

Like that wasn't, I mean I'm sure it was a consideration, I'm sure it made them uncomfortable or disappointed in him, but there was no hesitation in handling that on inter guy leadership side. And I think they handled it beautifully and that guy's no longer at Inter Guy and that behavior was not tolerated. I felt really good that it took so little time to address that openly.

Now they, say, okay, this place is a great place to be at. And that's really building that, that culture of, safety in an organization when you take care of your people. I'm curious, on this note, I mean like, is there anything and that was a great example. You know, is there anything that you wanna say in addition to that, to the male leaders within the industry?

although we had to go through like the suspension process and all that, like whatever steps needed to be taken were taken immediately. it destroys the point of standing up if you wait a week, if you're doing the investigation, if you're asking questions, if you're doing all that stuff, like if you see enough evidence, just terminate the person the way that is legal. and get it over with and get that out of your company. So that's the advice, like right now, not in three hours, not in four hours.

Handle it right now and make it known.

Like, if, there ever a time, would you, mind sharing a time or is there an example of things that you hear all the time that you consider a violation of your boundaries? Or is there something in general that women suffer from a lot in Unity that you would like to bring to my attention? Try and just see the other person's map, view of life so that you can understand where they're coming from and how to best to handle that in your own life personally and professionally.

ask some questions, but do it in a place where you're not also violating someone's privacy or comfortable setting, right? So seek out some strong females in your life that will give you that guidance and ask those questions. And always, always, always ask someone, what would you like to see happen? Because, just because someone reports bad behavior and this is subject to listen. There's some times where you just cut the person, period, end of story. You're just done. Right?

There is no suspension, there is no write up. You are out my doors and I'll see you in court. I dare you to stand up on a stand and say, I terminated you for abuse of humans. And I didn't follow the law, like, I'll see you in court. But there are times in which, it was, he asked me out to lunch three times and I said no. Three times. Okay, super understandable. What would you like to see me do, right? Like, how would you like me to handle this?

I would just like you to ask him to stop asking me to lunch. Okay, done. Fine, right? And as long as we do that and the behavior stops, problem solved.

Because I might just come over, I'm a hugger, so I'm just gonna hug you and I'm gonna love on you, but maybe you don't wanna be hugged. Maybe you just wanna be listened to for a second. And so that's how you're gonna feel validated. And so sometimes people want something and you're assuming something else. So stop assuming and just ask the simple question, what would you like to see happen?

But I heard some of those the conversations in there and it's like, all right, just the same as when a group of guys get together. And so knowing that audience, but also when you hear something that is offside, that is, just not right, it gives you that, you know, that hot and ashamed feeling because men get that too to stand up and actually say something, right? With inside of it. Like, hey guys, you know, maybe let's not do that, right? Let's not talk about that. That's not right.

That's not nice. That's not polite. And especially in a professional environment, you have to be hyper aware of that even more so than in just a group of guys. And to be able to actually stand up and to say those things to have that confidence to be able to push back and like, Hey, know what she said? No, right. Hey, you know what? I don't think that person really liked that that much. Hey, that comment might have been a little off side.

And really pushing that boundary to others because that's really how it's gonna enact transformation is when more people actually start talking about it and actually make a stand and actually have public conversations around it.

and it was her pointing out, like obviously I'd stopped saying that a long time ago now, but even her pointing out, like asking the question because at the time guys on my baseball team were saying stuff like that and I asked them for their advice, how do I handle this? And it was going, leading through questions.

And so that's been my approach ever since in any type of hard conversation is leading with a question, especially in that position, where more often than not, the reason they're making comments like that is because they feel like they're insignificant. And by making comments like this, their significance goes up by tearing other people down.

And if you challenge that, it brings them back down again to realize that what they're doing is not actually helping them become more significant, but instead, or more significant, sorry. But instead bringing them back down to a, a level of reality and understanding that tearing other people down is not the best way to build yourself up.

I am curious though, Stacy, with what you shared around when someone comes to you and asking the question of what would you like to see done? At what point do you as a leader want to contradict that a little bit and push back to, want to take more aggressive action? If they're saying, you know what, I just don't want anything to be done. I just, needed to talk to someone. I needed to get it off my chest, but I, don't want anything to happen. I don't want this to come back to me.

How do you push back as a leader in that situation?

We ask questions, then come to their own conclusions and then take their own actions. And I respect all of my clients confidentiality. It's just something that's non-negotiable for me. But then this happens and you cross over into Lake Stacy Fore, you came into my house and took a shit, and I'm about to open up some wounds. So like, you know, the saying like I'm from the south side of the hood and like, I love Jesus and all those things. Like, that's me, right?

Like, I'll pray from you from the south side. Actually, I just got a T-shirt. It says, I will hide you in a trunk and help people look for you. Like I just, that's how I feel. So it's so hard for me. I don't know that everyone has. That unique conflict within themselves. But I would say that when you ask someone a question and they give you an honest answer, you have to respect that. Now there are times in which you cannot allow it to continue, right?

If, there's harm to self of harm to others I feel like even if you're not legally obligated as a mandated reporter, then you absolutely have an ethics to do so with your team. If this behavior could perpetuate and grow or spread based on inaction, then you do have some action to take. How you handle that, it can be very delicate because frankly, let me tell you something. As a leader, I would just lie and say I overheard it. I'm not even gonna lie.

Like, I'm not gonna call the person out who told me about it. I'm just gonna say, I overheard your ass and I'm not gonna put up with it anymore. Or one of our leadership teams observed this behavior. That's a great more professional way than I heard your ass say it. But anyways so I'm just gonna be like the person who saw, heard it, selt it, taste it, whatever, and then you're, you're gonna have a come into Jesus conversation with me. I'm never gonna throw someone under the bus.

It violates all trust that they're gonna put in you. And if you do that once, you'll do it over and over and over again in their mind. So then you lose that ability to have that connection with your people. It's why it was really it was important to me that it was okay with my people. Their words, not mine. I wanna be very clear about this. It was important to me that my people said it was okay for me to torch the earth.

And also bringing in the words scorch the earth because again, it's needed, right? And this conversation continues to need to be happening It shouldn't, but it does. And if we take, a lot of the highlights outta this show that's it, right? Continue to have these dialogues with our team members. I do wanna thank you Stacy, for scorching the Earth too, and bringing that forward. the confidence that you, bring forward with it is absolutely amazing.

And you know, Stephanie, for yourself also to, exude the confidence that you have to be able to come on to hear as well and, share your experiences and your wealth and knowledge the situations that you've been put in. I can't thank the two of you enough for doing it. And I want to continue having open dialogue around this.

And, just thanks to people for not having nasty comments about a really sensitive subject, it can typically sometimes go that way. And I'm really, really, really grateful for everyone's kind supports and reach out messages. A lot of people I didn't even know. So it was very kind and, the sentiment in general reality was absolutely passed on to my people.