Am I An Abusive Man? (with Dr. Andrew Bauman)

I just want to acknowledge how vulnerable and brave it is for you to even engage with this topic . It's tough , it's really challenging and it's so important and it's so important .

Andrew is going to guide you in how to acknowledge some difficult truths while also not beating yourself up or shaming yourself , and owning the impact that pornography has had on you and , through you , onto others . You'll hear about the abusiveness of pornography , what it means to be a good , safe man , and why Andrew believes in men , and so do I .

Andrew is someone I trust and look up to . I really think you're going to get a lot out of this . I encourage you to listen with an open heart . Enjoy the episode . Today we get to be with Dr Andrew Bauman , who is the author of so many books now , but in particular , today we're talking about this question Am I an abusive man ?

Based on his book how Not to Be an Ass . Essays on Becoming a Good and Safe man , hey Andrew .

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And so I began to objectify women , began to use women inappropriately to soothe my own wounds and try to heal my own unprocessed trauma , and it led me into not being a very good and safe man .

And so , over the years , realizing not all abusers are created equal , right , and so I started working with all these men in my private practice and then getting all this feedback my husband's abusive , my husband's abusive and I'd meet with these men and I had this idea of what an abusive man was right , okay , he's going to punch her in the face , he's going

to you know like , and realizing , oh , wow , we have such archaic definitions and then just realize we have to widen our definition so much .

And then we have to do it in such a way , without self-contempt , without turning on ourself , without beating ourselves up , and actually begin to tell the truth of wow , my unprocessed trauma is coming out sideways , through entitlement , through how I treat women , through how I engage my wife , through my theological understandings and my use of scripture , whatever it is

. It's coming out sideways in all these ways and that is a form of abuse . In my book , how Not to Be an Ass , I talk about the spectrum of an abuser and it's important to kind of name like , okay , where am I on the spectrum ? And I would say 90% of men that I work with fall on one side of the spectrum and I call that the unaware fool .

This is a guy who has not done his internal work , he has not looked at his own life , he had not done his own story , integrated into his own body , his own story integrated into his own body . And he abuses , not because he's a bad guy ,

but because he doesn't even know what else to do . It almost comes out of him . It's in the sludge that we are living in , which is in a patriarchal culture that normalizes sexism and abuse .

And we have developed these ways of being and yet we don't even realize how it's impacting how we treat women , how we engage , and so those men are on one side of the spectrum and that's so common . That's so many men that come into therapy , that want to work on it .

Their wives are complaining and once they kind of realize , oh , I can actually heal quickly , I can actually start lifting emotional weights and I can begin to like understand this because I'm not just some archaic , you know , caveman , I'm actually incredibly capable of emotional intimacy , but we've been socialized into not right .

And so in our retreats , you know , we'll stare at each other six inches from apart most of the whole retreat and I'm our retreats , you know , we'll stare at each other six inches from apart most of the whole retreat and I'm like , okay , when have you last stared into a man's eyes ? Never . Or what is socially acceptable through fighting right , ufc or boxing ?

We it's . It's about domination of the other versus actually knowing each other . Letting me both receiving intimacy and also learning to engage intimacy through deep connection , and it's like this is . We have to retrain , we have to unlearn these toxic ways of being and relearn healthy ways of engaging so we can become healthier men .

So on the other side of the spectrum , this is much rarer . This is probably less than 10% of the guys that I see , and I call this side the narcissistic coward , and this is a much darker way of relating . There was just a few . I can remember One I thought I remember putting my keys in between my hands because I thought it was going to kill me .

When I walked out of my office at night in the parking lot because I've confronted his narcissism . And then I remember this other guy . I had to get my family out of the house because I thought it was going to come back and kill , kill me and my family .

Um , there's a few of those that I have through my practice , and then many more now that I've doing this on a much larger scale with groups , but there's a few that I'm like wow , this is a different level . This is not only intentional . This is morphed into this pathological darkness where evil is here .

Evil , really dark things can be used and justified , and this is where that narcissism happens and that abuse happens , but that's much more rare . So there's a spectrum of an abuser .

Right , Growing up 12 years old and beginning to , you know , have access to internet pornography , it's normalized . Every man's battle , remember this , is everybody's struggles with it .

It's become so normalized and yet it is incredibly abusive and we are dishonoring the image of God in the face of the woman and turning ourselves , dishonoring ourselves too , turning into just some caveman rather than actually healthy image bearers of God .

, right , it's so normalized because you are slowly teaching yourself women are less than women are here for me to devour and I can make them do whatever I want with a click right . So you're training . This is not intentional . You're not like oh , I want to be an abusive man . You're not even thinking about that .

You're thinking of oh , I feel anxious and I want to self-soothe , and this is how I can self-soothe . And we stunt our growth of dealing with hard emotions by this way of self-soothing . But it's harming someone else , it's harming the feminine , and we have to do our work around the feminine .

You are using men in that way to soothe an unprocessed wound and it's eroticized wounds , and that way to soothe an unprocessed wound and it's eroticized wounds , and so we got to go heal those wounds , and so whether whatever you look at doesn't actually matter , the core is the same . You're running from pain and then you're sexualizing that .

So maybe it's we're not so much addicted to sex as we're addicted to running away from our pain .

I've only say it , I'll lose my job . I got to feed my kids , I've got I don't know . I don't know any other career , I've only done this . I've only been a missionary Like I don't know what else to do . And we push them towards authenticity , we push them towards honesty . But what happens if they don't do that ? Then it becomes a projection outward .

So my unprocessed shame of dealing with my sexuality , dealing with my deception , then will come out in a various amount different forms . So I could modesty and tell these women what to wear . Look , I am like it's all a projection .

So many popular books that are out are literally unprocessed projections that are then taken and made as gospel norms and then it gets into our theology oh , this is what God is , when really it's like no , this is some dude who never did his work , who never healed his wounds and then pathologized it through writing and said this is the norm , this is every man's

battle , this is what we're supposed to do , this is how we're supposed to engage the feminine , and it's completely wrong and we've got to take it back it's completely wrong and we've got to take it back .

He knows when he's off-centered , when he's allowing his wounded little boy to lead him . So he goes hey , timeout . I'm not well right now . I need to take a break .

I need to go for a walk , I need to go shoot hoops , I need to go sing a song , I need to go write some poetry , I need to go journal , I need to go pray I don't care what it is but he knows his inner world and he knows when he's not living , when he's either living out of his wounded child or what I call an adaptive adolescent , and he's not

living into his safe , wise self . So he stops and gets re-centered .

He knows the difference between anger and aggression , he has learned how to fight clean , right , and this is something I'm still working on all the time of like I want to fight in a healthier way , a better way . I did it yesterday too . I'm like I had to apologize to my wife hey , babe , like I did not fight clean , I made a snide remark .

And that's what I do . I make this snide . Well , that's coming from a young place in me that feels scared . So what did I learn in my family of origin ? Assholes to each other to try to gain the upper hand , whoever could dehumanize the other .

So we all became very good at articulating my siblings and I , you don't want to fight with us , you don't want to verbally spar . And yet that's my shadow , that's my dark side , because that helped me guard my little wounded boy and get out of there alive .

So in a sense , I can bless that part of me and I have to be very aware of how that plays out in my marriage , because I will harm my wife .

No , actually I'm dealing with the kids , I'm doing this , I'm doing this , are you you know ? Okay , how about tonight after dinner , after the kids are down ? Yeah , let's do it then , okay .

So when you said this , I felt this and everybody's nervous systems can be settled , versus just kind of we're going through life where we're balancing all this crazy stuff and then you just drop a bomb and they're defensive and reactive , or you're defensive and reactive . So a soft startup is a great way . Number two is staying connected to your body .

We got to stay connected to our body . Our body's our compass . I believe God lives in our body . Right , instead of you know you are this , you are a . You know I feel . Right , I got to . I feel in my body , I feel angry . You know , feelings are normally one word , right Versus I feel you're a jerk .

That's not a feeling , that's just a passive , aggressive , slash , aggressive comment , right . We have to be aware , like , what you're thinking is very different than what you're feeling . So remain connected to your body . Number three avoid extreme language . You always well , you never do this . Everyone else does it , right . No one does it right .

Using extreme language is almost always dishonest and manipulative , right . No one does it right . Using extreme language is almost always dishonest and manipulative , right , because extremes are rarely true , right . So I know you have done this in the past and it is very hurtful , right , like that can be way better than you always , or you never .

Number four stay curious , right , when we lack curiosity towards the other person .

So what we do , my wife and I often we're really in a deep place is we'll get six inches from each other's face and we'll fight eye to eye , face to face , and it sucks , but it helps us keep each other's humanity and stay curious , rather than some of our darker fights are when we're not eye to eye and we're just in passing , because we lose each other's

humanity . We lose each other's , you know , but staying eye to eye keeps us grounded , keeps us connected to our own bodies and to their body . Right , and then we already talked about this . Number five knowing the difference between anger and aggression . That's how you can fight clean . So those are just some of the tips that I address in the book .

Oh , my partner , you know she's in her inner child , she's in her wounded child . She's not well right now . Let's take a break . Let's come back to this . I can be kind to you because I have learned to be kind to myself .

Which is number five of a good and safe man is you've embraced kindness to self and to other , and so when you can give yourself kindness , you can begin to be kind to your partner , who's also in the journey , hopefully . And finally , the final thing of a good and safe man is he's secure , he is consistent , he is not easily threatened .

He knows who he is and he knows why he is , and so that's an important distinction . He knows who he is and he knows why he is , and so that's an important distinction . He knows who he is and he knows why he is . He's rooted in his purpose Cause , when you've done the story work . Out of that comes depth of purpose . I don't I hate .

I hate that I have to face my shame every day .

And when you say being secure in who I am , that's also tied into humility . What's the difference between being humble and being weak ?

, and we self annihilate and we actually get rewarded Like that's humility . I think that's an incredible form of narcissism . Um , self-contempt , it's not the grandiose type , but it's the , it's the subtle type that literally makes it all about me , cause I'm such a piece of crap , I'm more crappy than you are .

There's such this weird narcissism that's self-deprecating , that actually still isolates you , that makes you distant from your partner , not connected to your partner , and it's a form of manipulation . It has nothing to do with humility . Genuine humility . Holds my glory and my goodness side by side with my depravity .

So I can never become too arrogant because I know my sin , I know my darkness , and I can never become too self-deprecating because I know my goodness . And those hold , those are held side by side , and that , to me , is healthy humility that we can trust .

I'm literally in a psychiatric ward 20 some years ago , you know , until a therapist kind of came into my life and began to father me and take me in and like realizing , oh , I'm so capable , but I was never taught it was . You know , we were church 10 times a week and behaviorisms and but not actual soul development or character development .

You know , I developed a charisma as a pastor and people were drawn to me , but I didn't develop character . I had a hidden life

with , with deceptive sexuality and shame , and so it was like so disconnected from actually who I am , whereas now it's like , no , I'm the same guy everywhere and it's so much easier to live that way because I can just be authentic . And now sometimes I can be authentically a dick , but I'm authentic .

There's a refreshingness to that that I'm the same guy everywhere and it's like that's part of the liberation . This is much better . And many men , their bodies , they're going to die of a heart attack because they're continuing to live this way .

And I see it all the time in men that comes through our program , like your body is screaming at you to live differently . You need a different way of being , and authenticity to me is spiritual . It's God's invitation .

We need more men . And yet it's completely different than what we've been taught masculinity is . And yet when I look at the life of Jesus and I look at how he engaged women oh yes , Sign me up for that .

deep as far as your body , as far as your story . We have a very potent four-day men's workshop . Our Level 1 workshop incorporates story work and body work in a very full way and that's kind of our premier program . We offer that every month . I've got two of them coming up in May and then the other months they're in North Carolina .

We have Level 2 programs , which is basically men and women together , women who've been abused and men who've abused , and all weekend they're staring in each other's eyes and engaging their deepest fears and deepest shames of what they've done with the other gender and facing that .

We also have another level two group for men , a level two retreat coming up in a few weeks in Yosemite , and so we've got all sorts of groups going on all the time all over the country , and I've got folks from all over the world coming and it's just a powerful , potent thing and I'm so honored to be a part of it .