“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies - podcast cover

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader.

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Episodes

Zapier’s Bold Bet: Every New Hire Must Be AI-Transformational, With CPO Brandon Sammut

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli get a behind-the-scenes look at Zapier's AI strategy with CPO Brandon Sammut. He demos some seriously impressive AI tools his team built—interview prep agents, automated workflows, performance tracking—and explains why they require AI skills from every new hire at their 730-person company. Make sure you also watch the video version on Substack and YouTube for the demo done by Brandon on Zapier Agent use cases. *Email us your questions or topics for...

Jun 26, 202549 min

AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decision-making processes. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentin...

Jun 24, 202518 min

The Dirty Secrets of Executive Departures

Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat. For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple questio...

Jun 19, 202532 min

How To Actually Use AI Agents, With Samy Aumar of Qonto

Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and Fiverr). This episode highlights Samy's use of AI agents which can be built without coding skills in ...

Jun 17, 202534 min

Your Next Hire Might Be a Deepfake with Danielle Mathis, VP Global Talent at Clari

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitment methods are dangerously obsolete in our AI-manipulated world. *Email us your questions or topi...

Jun 12, 202529 min

Executive Search is Broken — Here’s What Executive Candidates Really Need to Know with Neil Frye, Dotmatics (ex-Google & Dropbox CPO)

This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye , former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &...

Jun 10, 202542 min

I Demoted Myself Twice at Meta - And It Made Me Happier with Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, Head of People - Electric Capital

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in ...

May 29, 202559 min

Why Greylock's Glen Evans Says Your All-Nighter Culture Is Actually Anti-Growth

This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives. NOTE: Ke...

May 27, 202520 min

Why HR Should Never Lead Training: The Case for Leader-to-Leader Learning with Fidelma Butler, Couchbase

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions. Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather ...

May 22, 202547 min

The Fractional Executive Myth with Sally Thornton, Forshay

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli...

May 15, 202544 min

Is It Ever Okay to be Late to Meetings?

Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional status influence our responses to professional missteps *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &am...

May 13, 202517 min

Creating the 'Airbnb for Offsites': Jared Kleinert on Building the Future of Work Retreats

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com , who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully designed retreats drive organizational alignment, build trust between teammates, and provide measurable...

May 08, 202539 min

The $8M DoorDash Mistake: Equity Offers

In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising in...

May 06, 202528 min

Tobi Lütke Wants Shopify Employees to Use AI Reflexively — Should You? with Siadhal Magos of Metaview

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Support HR Heretics Sponsors: Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly w...

May 01, 202518 min

360 Reviews Without the Dread

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan unpacks the intricacies of 360 reviews from a management perspective, offering pragmatic approaches to synthesizing overwhelming feedback data. They contrast methodical theme-based analysis with modern AI-assisted solutions, emphasizing that meaningful feedback isn't an annual crucible but a continuous conversation peppered with five compliments per criticism. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]...

Apr 29, 202519 min

Troy Sultan: How Guide Turned RCs into Iron Man

In this episode, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Troy Sultan who shares his journey from Google to founding Guide, an AI-powered recruiting coordination platform. Sultan challenges traditional recruiting assumptions, arguing modern candidates prefer transparency, speed, and self-service options that let them control their hiring experience. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com...

Apr 25, 202543 min

Sapphire VC’s People Leaders Retreat & Deep Fakes

Kelli and Nolan recap their experience at the recent Sapphire People Leader Retreat focused on the evolving role of CPOs in 2025, covering executive alignment, moral boundaries, burnout prevention, and peer networks. They also share a case of corporate identity theft targeting job candidates, highlighting emerging recruitment security challenges. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR ...

Apr 22, 202523 min

Character AI's Annie Wickman on PMF, Google's Deal, and Humu

Annie Wickman shares insights from her journey as Google alum, first non-founder at Humu, and now Head of People at Character AI. Annie tackles our hardest questions in an unmissable episode. She covers the tensions between product-market fit and company culture, Character AI's unprecedented Google deal structure, taking the leap from people leader to a VC, and how to rebuild organizational trust. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and...

Apr 17, 202543 min

Startup Ethics: All In or Out

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss a listener's dilemma about working with ethically questionable founders. They explore the tension between startup rule-bending culture and personal values, advising that leadership requires either full alignment with founders or graceful departure. They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagu...

Apr 15, 202520 min

VC Brett Queener Unpacks AI-Native Startups and the End of Grunt Work

HR Heretics welcomes back guest Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, for a check in on the current venture landscape. Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype, the changing nature of talent requirements, and why successful companies must embrace a "change ec...

Apr 10, 202546 min

Claude's Human-Like AI & Groundbreaking Research from Anthropic with Siadhal Magos

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO, and Nolan Church dissect Anthropic's groundbreaking paper “ Tracing the thoughts of a large language model” released on March 27, 2025. They explore surprising findings: LLMs plan ahead rather than simply predicting next tokens, think across multiple languages simultaneously, and often present explanations that satisfy humans rather than reflecting their actual reasoning processes. The conversation highlights the paradox of developin...

Apr 08, 202531 min

Solving for False Negatives in Hiring with Arthur Matuszewski

Today we're excited to introduce you to an episode of 10x Recruiting, a podcast from Metaview hosted by our very own Nolan Church. 10x Recruiting is focused on conversations with top talent leaders to help listeners build world-class teams and stay ahead in the evolving recruiting landscape. Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, Better.com , and his firm Carrara. He emphasizes intellectual honesty, focusing on work outputs rather than ti...

Apr 04, 202552 min

Rethinking the HRBP Role with Lucy Adams, Disruptive HR

In this episode, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church are joined by Lucy Adams, founder of Disruptive HR. Adams critiques traditional HR's rigid policies, advocating instead for judgment-based approaches that treat employees as grown-ups. The conversation explores challenges facing HR business partners, the evolution of DEI initiatives, and how organizations can create environments where people thrive through high-trust cultures, rather than compliance-driven systems. *Email us your questions or top...

Apr 03, 202546 min

Real Personal Crises at Work

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing. They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them. *Email us...

Apr 01, 202523 min

HR Spy Games: Deel vs Rippling

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent HR tech industry drama involving Rippling and Deel, where a "spy" from Deel allegedly infiltrated Rippling to steal competitive information. They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social media spectacles, highlighting workplace transparency's growing complexity. *Email us your questio...

Mar 27, 202523 min

HR Needs More Tension with David Hanrahan

Nolan and Kelli welcome back friend of the pod David Hanrahan, who's just 60 days into his new role as CHRO at SolarWinds. The conversation kicks off with candid reflections on the Transform 2025 conference - the good, the bad, and what's missing from HR conferences today. They also dig into David's challenges and learnings transitioning to his new role, and a discussion on the changes coming for L&D initiatives. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine...

Mar 25, 202536 min

Calibration Sessions Demystified

In another edition of 'Dear Heretics' Nolan and Kelli tackle talent calibration sessions. They address how HR needs to balance facilitation versus providing opinions and establish clear processes beforehand. They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring transparency and company-wide understanding to avoid becoming toxic or misunderstood. *Email us you...

Mar 18, 202516 min

Compliance Training Doesn't Have to Suck: The Ethena Story with Roxanne Petraeus, CEO

Kelli and Nolan are joined by Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena, to talk about her journey from the US army to founding an HR tech company. She shares her views on leadership, the distinction between training and learning, and building a culture of intellectual meritocracy in a remote-first environment. The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers the role of Chief People Officers, and reveals how military discipline shaped her approach to buildin...

Mar 13, 202544 min

First 90 Days as CPO of a Big Company: Colleen McCreary's Blueprint

Friend of the pod Colleen McCreary discusses some big news: her return to a CPO role at a remote-first public company (Confluent). She shares insights on navigating the first 90 days, organizational change, implementing a company-wide initiative to eliminate unnecessary processes, and gearing up for lots of 1:1s. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remote environments, and bringing humanity to workplace policies—all while balancing the challenges of jo...

Mar 11, 202540 min

Crickets On Your Job Search? Do THIS Instead.

Nolan and Kelli discuss tech job search strategies, emphasizing proactive networking over mass applications., and recommend targeted outreach with concise value propositions that highlight business impact. They stress building relationships both inside and outside your company, maintaining professional connections, and adapting to a job market that increasingly demands quantifiable contributions. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and ...

Mar 06, 202518 min
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