Protecting Blue Carbon Ecosystems: A Global Perspective

You know what I always wonder? I always wonder how we're doing in. climate change. Like, how are we reducing climate change? What projects are out there? We hear all about these global initiatives, and the Paris Accord Agreement, and the Convention for Biological Diversity, and protecting biodiversity, and all these countries signing on. And then we see all these ocean decade, and 30 by 30 we have to protect the ocean and

land, 30% of the ocean and land. We always hear about these international agreements, but what's actually happening? What's actually happening? How does that transfer to on the ground action. Well, I have Emily Kelly as my guest today. She is part of the Blue Carbon Action Network from the World Economic Forum, and she's here to talk about that very same thing, is how they're putting together restoration and

blue action projects for blue carbon. So that could be restoring mangroves, that could be restoring salt marshes, that could be restoring seagrasses, or even just supporting projects that take ocean and coastal areas and generate that into something that the community can benefit from. It's a very human-centric project and it's global, but it also has some national and local ramifications, which is just amazing to

see and we're gonna hear all about it from Emily Kelly. So we're gonna talk about all of this on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I am your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a

better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about action-taking from a global, national, and local level. We're going to be talking about international agreements, like the Paris Accord agreement. We're going to be talking about biodiversity and how to protect biodiversity. And we're going to be really focusing in on specific habitats that are known as blue carbon habitats, seagrass beds, salt

marshes, mangroves. These are all areas that are being looked at as sort of being able to sort of take in carbon and sequester carbon, but also have these co-benefits, you know, where they can provide a haven as a nursery habitat, they can protect young species, they can have a lot of, they have a lot of biodiversity, they can

have shoreline protection. But then they also look, these action plans and these partnerships also look at how to fund these projects, how to make it sure that they're focusing in on the core benefits, not the co-benefits, which I just talked about, but the core benefits of how is it gonna benefit the community? How is it going to financially stabilize the community? How is it going to make sure that people in households all have roles to play?

Everything like that, you know, all around the world, in the Philippines, in Indonesia, in Latin America, all over the place, we're going to be talking about projects that are going to be either going on or are going to be talked about in the future and going to happen in the future. We're going to talk about how that's all set up. As a scientist, it's easy to say, hey, let's just restore this one area or these areas because that makes sense. There's a

lot of co-benefits. There's a lot of core benefits that get that all get sort of satisfied, right? And we start to see success. But there's a lot of policy involved in that. There's a lot of stakeholder meetings. There's a lot of stuff that goes on. It's never an easy project, and hence why it's been so difficult to put those in very quickly. And so we're going to talk

about how that's all played together. Emily Kelly, who works for the Blue Carbon Action Partnership, BCAP, part of the World Economic Forum, And she's here to talk about all these projects and how they all work and how they're all proposed and how, you know, the corporate partnerships happen and what they like to do and why they're part of this and, you know, talking about net and nature positive investments and

so forth. So there's a lot of stuff that we go over. And I would love, you know, for you, I can't wait for you to hear this interview, but also ask questions after because I would love to get Emily back on and be able to ask more questions. And you can contact me. Just wait till the end of the interview and you can figure out how to contact me then. But here is the interview with Emily Kelly from the Blue Carbon Action Partnership.

And from the Blue Action. And here is Emily Kelly from the Blue Action And here is Emily Kelly from the Blue Carbon Action Partnership talking about the organization and what they do. Enjoy the interview, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Emily, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about the Blue No problem. I'm super excited for this because it's not often we get somebody

on the podcast to talk about blue carbon. And I think it's such an important topic that always flies under the radar. And I know there's reasons for it sometimes because it's not always like the sexy news. Like, you know, sometimes you get shark news or marine mammal news, there's things like that, but it's so important to conservation, especially in the situation that we are as a planet, you know, in terms of climate change and things like that. We need to change and blue carbon are

one of those topics that we need to talk more about. So I'm excited to do that. We're going to be talking about the organization you work with, the Blue Carbon Action Partnership. We're going to talk about what you guys do and all those things. It's going to be a lot of fun. But before we get into all of that, Emily, why don't you just let us know who you Yeah, thanks, Andrew. And also on the sharks and all those other super charismatic animals, they rely on some of these ecosystems, these

blue carbon ecosystems. So excited to talk more about that. Absolutely. Yeah, so I am leading our Blue Carbon Action Partnership. It's an initiative run out of the World Economic Forum funded through the UK's Blue Planet Fund. We launched in 2023. And my background is in marine ecology, actually. Prior to joining the World Economic Forum, I did

a couple of postdocs. Previous to that, I did my PhD at Scripps Institution of Oceanography and came to that through sort of multiple different steps previous to that, but worked for the U.S. government briefly as a fellow, did a master's focused on prairie chickens in New Mexico and how people make decisions about environmental debates. So, yeah, so spent a few some time in different spaces, hung

out in Antarctica for a little bit. So really, really happy to be working in blue carbon ecosystems right now, where some of my heart really lies in photosynthetic organisms, just to be extra nerdy about it. And, and things that fix carbon. So yeah, coming from a science, natural science background, and then moving into the policy with

Awesome. One of the things I'm always interested is when I'm talking to people about their careers is, you know, you obviously you've had a very variety based diverse background in terms of the projects you've been able to work on. What's driven you throughout each of those projects? Like why take a master's studying prairie chickens? Why do you work in Antarctica? I mean, obviously just to go to Antarctica is enough, but like what drove you to make those decisions and be like, this

is the project that I want to go for. That's, I mean, I think like, I mean, I love, listening to some of your other guests. And like many people, I think it's sort of what opportunity lies ahead that you feel like you can be helpful in. And so I think that's sort of where I've and where you've had the opportunity and the good fortune of finding yourself. So I think that's sort of how I've landed in all these different spaces. Certainly,

I mean, I'm just super driven by a passion for the ocean. And I think, as you may relate to, and I think, and so it's always been really exciting to make connections with the ocean, with kind of everything else that happens on our planet. I love thinking about, for example, the sustainable development goals and how

we think about where we want to go by 2030. And if you look at those sustainable development goals, Obviously there's one specific to the ocean, SDG 14, but there are lots of them that every single sustainable development goal touches on the ocean if you think about coastal communities. So if you think about food security, nutrition, poverty alleviation, all these things. And so I think it's really exciting to get to share with others the power of the ocean and what a healthy ocean

Yeah. And now speaking of globally, you know, it's, you know, this is a pretty big project, you know, when you, when you look at the scope of, of everything, um, when you, how long have you been with, with, uh, this, this organization, like, and, and, and how long you've been working on this project and what made you decide this, like, this is where I'm going to So at the World Economic Forum, we work on public-private partnerships.

So how can we get governments and corporations and many other stakeholders together to help tackle big challenges? And for the blue carbon space, we were hearing more and more, particularly from our corporate partners, that they're really interested in thinking about blue carbon, either from a nature positive perspective or from a carbon credit perspective. And we can talk a lot more about those pieces.

And they were interested in understanding a little bit more about what would it mean to invest in mangroves. And we collaborate with our colleagues at the 1T.org, which is the Forum's Trillion Trees Initiative, looking to conserve, restore, and grow one trillion trees by 2030. It's part of the UN decade for ecosystem restoration. And from within that, you know, could there be something where we could be supportive? And so we started thinking a little bit more about

that. And from that, we, the mangroves working group was born, which is a collaboration between our ocean team and our 1T colleagues and helping our corporates better understand how they can connect with high quality projects, learn from one another in investment in mangroves. And then we also thought from the forum side, you know, how could we be supportive of governments? Because what we're really hearing is that governments are super interested in being involved more in blue carbon.

But they're looking for how to do it in a way that connects all the pieces that they have ongoing. Blue carbon ecosystems, maybe taking a moment to back up to just explain how it can be complex from the policy side. We're primarily talking about mangroves, seagrasses, and salt marshes. And these are super cross-jurisdictional. when you're thinking about governments, there are multiple ministries often that are in charge of these different resources in different ways.

So it might be they're a tree in the case of mangroves, but they're also in a coastal area and they may be in seagrasses or below water. And so those are often part of a fisheries ministry, for example. So there are a bunch of different ministries that are often involved. How can we think about supporting governments and connecting all these pieces? And then how can we also link what's happening in the policy side and get additional investment

into those ecosystems? And that's where we thought our corporates would be really interested in playing a role. So putting all those pieces together is really the genesis for why we thought, where can the forum and the Blue Carbon Action Partnership serve a purpose in connecting the dots and being a platform for helping to provide additional resources as governments are working on this and then connecting it to these global conversations

Gotcha. I have a question in terms of when you've mentioned it a couple times sort of the corporate sponsors and your corporate partners. We often see in the space of conservation and restoration that there are partners, there are a lot of times foundations, there are granting agencies, government will provide money a lot of the times through their own programs. How

does it work with corporate partners? When they talk about investing into, say, a mangrove restoration or a conservation, how does that all come to So we work with a number of corporations that work with the World Economic Forum. And they are interested in thinking, how can we invest. It might be for nature positive investment. It might be thinking about their net zero goals. It could be related to any other sort of like broader environment sustainability

goal that they may have. We are, they're not, they are acting with their own they're acting independently of us, but they're looking to get guidance, support, connections from us. And so that's really where the excitement lies is, you know, as we have corporates thinking about wanting to invest, they're really looking for how to do so in a really high quality way.

And I'll say that's what's so exciting is I think there's a real push for thinking about high quality investment, thinking about how to do, I mean, no one wants an article written about them, about greenwashing. So how can, how can they be looking to, how can they make the best connections to invest in ways that are of the highest quality? And, you know, an exciting part of that too, is that was some of the initial conversation that came out of the Mangroves Working Group was, you know, what

could be, what is high quality in this space? That was questions that we were getting. And so from that came a really cool process of a number of different organizations and a global, a global collaborative effort with feedback from a number of different open workshops that created the high quality blue carbon principles and guidance, which is right. the sort of overarching guidance that says, here's what high quality

means. And that involves ensuring free and informed consent with communities, looking at understanding context, a high quality investment. So there are a number of different pieces that we can now say, okay, if you want to invest in a high quality way, here are ways to do that. And very excitingly, some of the partners involved are leading the way right now in creating a practitioner's guide for this for what does that mean in detail. So that's

That's so interesting. So you know, when you hear all these companies come up, like, they have their company and they have their corporation, they get their revenue, however, which way whatever corporation they are, and then they design because they want to be they want to, you know, they want to have that outlook on where people can just be like, hey, this company is doing some great things with their they've come up with these policies and these values where

they want to give back to nature, they want to make sure that nature is there and they want to help reduce climate change. So they want to look around and invest in something like you mentioned before that would be nature positive. So when they invest in a mangrove restoration or invest in a particular area, does that mean like you know, they're not looking for a return on

investment. The only return on investment is like that, that, that the mangrove area that they've invested in, that they've helped supply money to do the restoration is blooming and it's doing really well. So they're looking for these guidance principles to make sure that they're doing the best work that they could be doing, or they're investing their

money in the best work that they can be doing. Is that, do I have that, that, This is a great preview to some work that we're doing right now, in fact, which is really, really to, there's been a bunch of work to really understand, okay, what

are the opportunities for corporate players in investing? And I'll say also that all the work that we're doing is also supporting a global movement called the Mangrove Breakthrough, which is a collaborative effort between the UN high-level champions, climate high-level champions, and the Global Mangrove Alliance. All of that work is really trying to really unpack. They've started this process where they're looking at

different types of investment models. From our side, we're trying to think about what are the economics for investing in blue carbon ecosystems? And so I will say that there are a bunch of different opportunities. So it could be that your founder and CEO, like Salesforce and Marc Benioff, is very passionate about the ocean. And so they have commitments for what they want to do in terms of planting

trees and also for their net zero goals. Or it could be that you are a company like Iberostar, which is a hotel chain that is intimately connected with its surrounding ecosystems and works very closely on thinking about its sustainability goals, because it's, of course, very well connected. Within their business model. So they're there. Those are sort of two sides of This conversation and there's a lot that's in between and we're working on unpacking a

I love that. I love seeing that I just, I love seeing these types of projects kind of come to play, you know, and, and because they're so important and you need to start shaping all of these guidelines and, and, and things that, that all come into play to make sure that these investments go and seeing these corporations get excited about this because they're, they're not just investing blindly, they're investing into, into projects that have, you know, a

good success rate or potential for a great success rate and I think that's, That's that's really really important when when you see it. So I Love that. I love that aspect Can we talk about like maybe you mentioned literally like there's a couple projects that you're thinking about and stuff Like are there ongoing like when you guys do the guidelines and then the corporations like look at like the partners look at this Are there do you? Sort of recommend specific projects

that are going on. Like do you have other partners on the ground who are doing Totally. I mean, I will say also, again, our role we see as really connecting a bunch of different pieces and there's so much amazing work that colleagues are doing in Blue Carbon and have been doing for a very long time. I mean, Blue Carbon, a broader sort of excitement about Blue Carbon has really just been the last less than 10 years, maybe five years of a lot of excitement.

And so I think, yes, so we're very happy to be making a lot of connections. So we work a lot. I mentioned the Global Mangrove Alliance. We work with those partners, which is a group of NGOs that have all come together to really be incredibly impactful in the way that they coordinate across all the work that they're doing in mangroves, which of course is one of the blue carbon ecosystems that we

know the most about. Or we spend the most time, I guess, in figuring out how to be very specific in carbon accounting, for example, but also in restoration conservation more broadly. And then we work with a bunch of innovators across the world. The Forum also has a platform for innovation called Uplink, and some of our Uplink Ocean innovators have been, are really

doing amazing things in the blue carbon space. So thinking about how they can leverage technology for this space, but also very deeply connecting with communities. So thinking about one distant imagery, for example, which is an innovator out of the out of UAE, working on planting mangroves using drones. But the really cool part of it is connecting with communities very deeply about their goals, their interests, and working

globally now with them. And they build those drones out of pieces that can be very easily fixed in within the community. So super cool, very impactful Can I just tell you something that's kind of interesting? So my daughter, she was in grade 10 a couple years ago. She's a senior right now. But she looked at that. She had to build the drone. They're in an iSTEM program. And one of their projects was building a drone to do something for

climate change. And so a lot of people were building on the land drones to do regular tree planting, like on land tree planting. And I told my daughter, I'm like, you should look at something different. Like what about coastal? And obviously I'm an ocean guy and she wants to be a zoologist. And I said, have you thought about like, what about flying drones? Can you do that? And we picked up the UAE project. Like we did a search, looked up the UAE project and she used

that as a model to do her drone prototype. And we use it for that. So for mangrove planting. Yeah, that we're looking at like, and it was interesting because like you're looking at like, like dispersal of seeds and how much that weighs. And you know, you have to it's it was it wasn't an easy project to do like to do those prototypes, but to see how You know, quickly the sort of just drones have like that technology has evolved

so quickly to be able to use like different parts. And you know, it doesn't have to be a $100,000 machine. You know, it could be a $2,000 machine or less and be able to hold that payload to be able to disperse those seeds. So yeah, it was really exciting. Sorry, I just wanted to let you know I got excited about Oh my gosh. Oh, I'm so excited to hear about that connection. That's so fun. And yeah, I mean, I think the other cool part about drones, for example, is, you know, being able

to better understand the, um, the landscape. So you can understand what, what does drainage look like here? Like, you know, there are a bunch of different ways that the drone can be helpful, which is cool. Um, I think, I mean, I think the key thing too is, of course, this isn't really a tech challenge. This is a people challenge, of course, but how can you be using technology to be supportive? So it's super cool. And what

I love about them is that they're so engaged in the community. So, I mean, I think they're such a poster child for how wonderful you can be in engaging at a community level and then Yeah. And so I think, you know, connecting with these sorts of partners is really powerful. And then the other piece that we can, you know, unpack a little bit more potentially is just how we're connecting

with the governments. Because I think, again, where the Blue Carbon Action Partnership, we really think about working in sort of two different spaces, one at a national level, for how we can support governments in achieving their blue carbon ecosystem conservation and restoration ambitions. And that that's purposely ambiguous what ambitions means, because it could be anything. It could be engaging

with the voluntary carbon market. But really, it's it's super a lot of focus right now on how to include blue carbon ecosystems in their nationally determined contributions under the Paris Agreement. So how how how are, how is each government helping to achieve our global climate goals? And blue carbon ecosystems are part of that. And then, you know, there's also, um, everything that's we're thinking about

with our biodiversity goals as well. So this would be a different treaty than our climate treaty, but our, um, our biodiversity treaty and thinking, how do we achieve those goals? And this is where these ecosystems come into play as well. And then I think the key, you know, key part is, and again, why this is often cross-ministerial work, is that these are really important. These ecosystems are

really important to coastal communities. And so, you know, when we're thinking about livelihoods, food security, fisheries, fuel, all of those different pieces are important to communities that live around blue carbon ecosystems. Yeah, so there's a, there's a lot to consider on a policy level and how governments can streamline and align those policies to

then say, okay. We're, we're sort of more set up for thinking about what types of investment can come in and It's so interesting because my science brain is going off and you're like, yeah, basically what you're talking about is, you know, making sure that we're putting in mangroves, seagrasses, salt marshes back to where maybe they were taken away at one point or identifying areas

that may have changed where they could be. really helpful and really good and have a great good chance of success so in my brain like I'm like this is easy you just oh here's where we can put a mangrove let's just you know plant them let's do it but then like the conservation brain goes off and that's where policy comes into play and like you said you're you're dealing with You know, this is a global effort. So you're talking about here are the global and international

treaties that where these all fall under. And then you have to go to each government and look at their plans and how, you know, how they're sort of adapting to these agreements and their policies. And it really becomes this web, you know, for each country's different, each country's unique, but not only within a national sort of policy standpoint, but you're looking at even deeper and even smaller scale to local levels, right? Regional and then local level. So it can get really complex,

as you mentioned, you know, at that time. What are the major challenges that, you know, even like the Blue Action, the Blue Carbon Action Plan face? or even like the corporate partners face, even the government's face, like what are the major challenges that you come up against that you have to overcome, I guess, That's such a good point. I mean, I think that what you just outlined is the first big challenge is just having all

stakeholders sitting around the table together. And that's that's really our goal is supporting through local partners. We work with local NGOs to partner in each country, and they are a secretariat that is the glue that helps to just be additional human power in connecting all the pieces. So right now we're partnering in Indonesia and the Philippines, and we're looking to continue to grow in Southeast Asia, and then thinking about additional partners in Latin America and Africa.

Right now, we're thrilled to be working So far, Indonesia is our first partner, Philippines, our second partner, both already have a lot that's happening in this space. And so how do you help with coordinating and connecting a bunch of pieces? And that's the work that they are all doing internally. So again, these are country-driven National Blue Carbon Action Partnerships. It is the hard work of all of those that are in country that is making all of this magic in-country surrounding

blue carbon happen. And that's making sure that you have all of the relevant government partners in the room, you have NGO partners that are doing a lot of the connecting with communities, you have community leaders, you have those from the corporate side, from finance, and all of them coming into one space to say, okay, here are the big things we want to unpack, we need to be thinking about. policy, and that's likely, you know,

much more of a ministerial driven process. And then you have a finance task force, and that's focused on once we better understand what the policy landscape is going to be, how do we make sure that this is connecting to finance? The core for all of this is creating a cohesive national roadmap. And that roadmap then is the vision that is set out by all those stakeholders to say, okay, here's, we know this is where we want to go. And this is how

we want to get the finance to come in to support that as well. So that's the, that's the ultimate goal, but it's also the challenges to make all those pieces happen. But I will say, I mean, there's so much excitement around this space and because these, these ecosystems are such super ecosystems. I mean, mangroves, we talk about the biodiversity a lot there. They obviously are storing carbon. But again, the core benefits of these ecosystems is really in supporting these

communities. And seagrasses are also, as we know, fisheries, nursery habitats, they're really important for a bunch of the species that we might see in other ecosystems later, start out in seagrasses. Both of those, as well as salt marshes, super important for shoreline protection and for As we think about climate change, also they help us with thinking about how we adapt to climate change. So I think for all of those different reasons, we have a lot of excitement and

Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that, you talk about shoreline security, one of the things that always stands out, especially in those areas, that Southeast Asia area, Indian Ocean area, one of the things that always stands out was the report that the UN came out with, I think it was UNEP, I'm not sure, but that came out with after the 2004 tsunami that occurred in that

area. And they said areas that had healthy coral reefs, healthy seagrass beds, healthy mangroves did better against the tsunami than areas that didn't have, you know, they didn't have, like, in healthy ecosystems, like, they either, you know, remove some mangroves or remove, like, those kind of

habitats. So that always stands out for me. Like, that's so important, especially in island nations, smaller island nations and things where you get a lot of ocean and you just never know, especially during, with climate change consequences, you know, sea level rise and storm surges and storms in general. these habitats become very important to these communities in many ways. And

then you talk about biodiversity, you know, protection. All those, all those, all the like salt marshes, mangroves, seagrasses are huge for biodiversity protection and conservation. So it's so important to have all those. Now, we talk a lot about setting up these projects and identifying where there's potential for these projects to happen. And I'm sure you have a lot of the projects. Actually,

that's a good question. Do you have a lot of projects on the go now that you're either involved or somewhat a partner with as part of the action plan? I'm sorry. So on the ground individual projects? Yeah. So again, I think this is where we are just thrilled to be partnering with wonderful organizations on the ground that are doing exactly that work. And then we are really happy to be connecting that with the broader discussion,

or rather to be facilitating where it's not already happening. But yeah, so I mean, amazing project. So for example, the Philippines, just the Philippine Space Agency just finalized their mangrove mass um, their national map and they did a bunch of that's cool. Okay. So fun. So fun. And, um, and they, they just re they just, um, formally, uh, uh, launched it in July and they did a bunch of really

neat citizen science connecting with that. So using their, their imagery, then connecting that with on the ground with local communities, um, with NGOs, with academia. with government who is doing all the ground truthing of their images and also doing a bit more detail. So to understand not just here's where we have mangroves, but also what type of mangroves do we have in those places. So really neat connections with citizen science there. And we're really excited to see how

that all came to be. And I think particularly, you know, when you can be involving communities in the work that's happening at such a national level, it's so exciting and really makes those connections so real. Oh, for sure. And then there's a lot of really neat work, again, in the Philippines, thinking about what's going to happen with some of the abandoned fish ponds that they have. It's coming from some work that they've done in the past, where fish ponds was a larger policy

in the 80s and 90s. And then some of those ponds are no longer functional. And there's an opportunity to think about if they could be restored to mangroves. And so, wonderful organization, for example, Oceanus Conservation, who's working very closely with communities and local governments in thinking about how to do restoration there. And not just to do restoration for some of these, you know, broader goals of biodiversity and shoreline protection, but, and habitat

and those sorts of things. But thinking also, okay, so it was a fish pond, we were thinking about food production with it, how can that still be a place for food production? And so pairing that restoration and conservation with a crab fishery, for example, and working with communities and thinking about how to create that in concert with planting mangroves. So

really, really exciting opportunities that exist there. We're really excited to be partnering with Conservation International in in Indonesia, and they are working a lot, as you may know, on climate smart shrimp. So there's a bunch of cool work, I think, that's really thinking about these broader benefits that we can, the Oh, absolutely. It's so exciting. And just even just to think, like, an abandoned fish pond for that local community must just be, you

know, they must look at it and just be like, we could do so much with that. And they just may not have the resources at the time to be able to do that or the time to be able to change that into, like what you mentioned, a potential crab fishery or, you know, something different. And so having that ability to regenerate that area into something that's more productive is probably really helpful for that community and

brings a lot more excitement for that community. So I think that's, I'd love to hear projects like that. And, you know, we talk about, you mentioned earlier, you know, putting the finance together and the plan together, the action plan as you go through to restore specific areas and sort of regenerate areas and make it more productive for that local community, but also be able to store more carbon and act in that

manner. There's got to be a plan for the long term right like these are like essential like spatial plans or business plans for the long term How is that done in terms of one of trying to predict how the project's gonna go? But also adapt to changes that might happen in specific areas like local areas Is there are there sort of plans being made to look ahead 10 5 10 15 years

That's such a good point. I mean, I think there's really important work also that partners are doing and thinking about, okay, so we know that we're thinking about these amazing ecosystems as nature-based solutions for climate, for example, but how are they responding to climate change and where will sea level rise be and these other pieces and how will that impact the longevity of a restoration site, for example? And

so I think, yeah, those are super important pieces. this this is also if you're thinking about a carbon credit coming into play this is also a super important space because you need to be able to show that the carbon that you're saying is going to be stored in a specific area is actually going to be stored there um for 30 years more yeah so um so that's important in the calculation of all this and certainly has to happen and has to happen in projects um and and also um yeah there's just a

other elements that need to be considered in terms of like longer term development plans and these sorts of things that might impact an area. So in the work that we are connecting with these governments on and with these broader stakeholders, part of the roadmap process is

to be thinking holistically about all of this too. And I think that's where that can be, that will be a really powerful piece of the hard work that they're all doing is how how do we think about all the different elements that come into play, not just these are areas that are ripe for restoration or we definitely want to conserve these, but also what is the broader plan for what we've considered

Okay. Okay. Really, really. That's super, super interesting. We've talked a lot about, you know, the sort of projects of where some of the projects are happening and sort of that synergy between sort of the global efforts and the local efforts and the national efforts. There's one thing that a term that we discussed before the interview, like just when we were planning out this interview, is that the core benefits versus

the co-benefits. And I would love for you to explain what those mean and sort of how they play either against each other or for each other when we talk about, you know, doing this Blue Yeah, I think this is a really important sort of just a slight adjustment to our language in this that we see as really important. And this is coming out of some really great work that colleagues have done and just

published on in terms of thinking. You know, we talk about the sort of language to date has been these are blue carbon ecosystems. We've sort of called them this because they all share this superpower of sequestering carbon if we give them that opportunity. But really, the carbon piece of it is but one of many of the reasons that we care about them. And in fact, if you are living amongst these ecosystems, there

are these core benefits that you really care about. And they're not really co-benefits like, oh, we love carbon and then we care about these other things, they're co-benefits. The core benefits, in fact, are

the things that we have been chatting about already. really caring about livelihoods, food security, also thinking about the roles of different people in the household and, you know, people going out and gleaning, particularly often women who are collecting from these ecosystems and adding to additional parts of the dinner plate for their families. So there are these core benefits

that we, that are the centerpiece for these ecosystems. And it just means that Taking a human centric perspective in what these, these ecosystems mean for their communities, local communities, indigenous peoples. And and that's a centerpiece for how high quality. Projects can be developed to whether those are positive, or if they involve a carbon credit is really thinking about the community leadership. And again, I will point to

the amazing. organizations that we are happy to collaborate with that do incredible work in really the community leadership piece and connecting communities with the resources they need to understand where they want to take action and what they might want to be thinking about for planning for their ecosystems. Just so super important for making sure that we're doing well in how we think about our I love that. I love that. I have a couple more questions before

we end this interview. This has been super, super informative. I'm sure you and I can talk about this forever, but we do have, you know, a show to do and to keep within a certain constraint, but we'll love to have you back on, of course. You know, but one thing that I always try to do is bring it back to the audience, right? You know, this is, the podcast is called How to Protect the

Ocean. This is, you know, these types of projects, when you get it so global, is very difficult for people individually to be like, how can I contribute or how can I help within this sort of context, right? And so what would you suggest, as someone who's working and seeing all the sort of the different drivers and all the different players that are in this, How can people in my audience be able to support or help or even find out more information?

It's like three really things that they can do to get involved in some sort of way where they can help protect the ocean or even feel Yeah, thanks, Andrew. And thinking even about your recent podcast, as we were talking about with the former mayor of Sausalito and thinking You all talked about where we'd lost a lot of wetlands in California. I'm

sitting in California right now. And so I think one of those pieces is, you know, just being aware of what's happening with your local ecosystems and thinking about, okay, there's a new development going in, they're planning for a new development, for example, and being able to comment on what land use change we're seeing, even in our local communities for that is so, so important. These ecosystems are amazing. They can be super gooey. They can smell like rotten eggs. They

have super carbon-rich soil. If you were to be tromping through them, your boot might get caught and you would end up face first in mud. They're sort of amazing and also not necessarily, you know, they don't have the same charisma as a coral reef sometimes, depending. But they're super important to how our coastlines work.

So even if you're not sitting in a place that's rich, like mangroves out your front door or seagrass beds in front of you, or even a salt marsh, and just thinking about what's happening in your local community is so important for just being active in taking control of what we're doing with our own ecosystems nearby. And then I would say also just giving them more attention and following more of what's happening is really

helpful. And thinking about how we're using our dollars as consumers in terms of the types of companies that we purchase from. And I guess related to that is also, I think I really like to think a lot about ocean optimism and how can we be celebrating successes and how can we be rewarding behavior that we think is really uplifting the ocean. And so I think that can go across so many different

spaces. So that could be, um, you know, investing your tourism dollars in a place where you think that there's really excellent work that's happening in blue carbon ecosystems. It could be purchasing, um, purchasing your seafood in a way that, you know, is valuing blue carbon ecosystems, um, valuing ecosystem management more broadly. And, and, you know, engaging with companies that you think are doing a good job, too. All of these things really

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right. And one of the things that really popped up that you mentioned is, you know, just being active in your local area and finding out sort of just natural areas and keeping them natural, you know, wherever possible. You know, we talked a lot about restoring mangroves and seagrasses and salt marshes. At one point, you know, the world's coastlines probably had, wherever there could be mangroves or seagrasses

or salt marshes, naturally there were. And a lot of the times they were either taken out for building, you know, sort of human-centric areas and we lost a lot of those over time, and it's a lot more expensive to put them back in than it is to take them out, or it is to just conserve them. And so, where you see mangroves, where you see or know of seagrasses, and where you know salt marshes, do your best as a community to keep them in place, and I think that's That's

really important. A lot of the times they sneak them in there. They sneak development in there. And I mean, I'm not sure if you're aware, Emily, but by the time this podcast airs, it may be past the time, but we just did an episode a couple weeks ago or so about the Florida State Parks and how they're trying to develop golf courses and resorts on state parks in Florida. And you're just like, these parks don't need that. They're

an attraction in itself and they're loved by Floridians. And all of a sudden, just under the noses, they tried to get it go. And you had the National Audubon Society and all these other organizations that are, you know, making light of and bringing awareness to these public commentaries where

you can actually have a say. And I think it's working because they've already delayed at this point in time of this recording, they were delaying public comment times and public meetings, because I think there's been a lot of people who are like, no, we cannot, we cannot have this. So I think, like you said, being aware of the areas of what's around you in the areas and trying to protect those natural areas, I think is really important. So that's a good way of, you know, we already have some

blue, you may have some blue carbon areas around you, you just don't even know it yet. So I That's right. And I think public comment is such an amazing tool that I don't know how, you know, your neighbor may not be aware of public comment. So like, just like chatting about it, if you have like a neighborhood gathering or something like that, it's so powerful. Yeah, really amazing to

Absolutely. Emily, this has been absolutely fantastic to have you on the podcast and being able to learn more about the Blue Carbon Action Network and the projects that you guys are helping and partnering and finding out all about the intricate details. I think it's really important. I know these projects go on and some people tend not to know about them, so now my audience knows about

them and I appreciate you coming on and explaining. And I know you're doing this early in the morning California time, so I really do appreciate it. And I'm sorry to get you up so early to do this, but I definitely appreciate it. And it's been so much fun to have you on. I'd love to have you back on to discuss more of BCAP in the future and to get updates on some of those projects that You bet. Thank you. Thank you, Emily, for joining me here on the

How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to have you on. So much information. I love the fact that there's so many levels to this, and it can be very complicated. But really, the core part of this is let's start making coastal habitats productive and making sure that it hits those core benefits for those coastal communities that will benefit from that. Their households will benefit. It's not just individuals, not just a sector of that village or that area, that community. It's

everybody benefits. And I think that's really important. And it goes to show the complexities of these types of projects and why it's so hard to get them going. I even love the fact that Emily started mentioning how you can get involved and how you can help support these projects in natural areas. in your area. We talked a lot about looking around your area. It doesn't matter where you live, whether you live in Canada, the UK, the States, Latin America, Australia,

Africa. Look around and look at where your natural areas are and protect those areas. Work with organizations, work with your governments and stuff to ensure that they know that those natural areas are important to you. And when there are areas or there are times when you can participate in public comment, participate. That's the really important thing. So it's a huge awareness campaign for yourself. Like see what's local, see what's national, regional, whatever that might be, and then look at

international and be able to participate in those. So there's so many different levels that you can participate on. and be aware of what's happening and then talk to other people about it. That's the big thing is really knowledge and gaining that knowledge. And, you know, one of the things you can do is you can start, you know, if this is your first episode, you can start listening to the podcast. And, you know, I talk about different projects that are going on. I talk about different ocean

news and how you can participate and so forth. And I think that's important. That's important to have and to have for a very long time in the future. We do these episodes three times a week. So follow, subscribe, whatever you need to do and and support the podcast. So I want to thank you for joining me and for Emily for joining me on the podcast. It was really great to have her on and I can't wait to have her back on to talk more about the Blue Carbon Action

Partnership. That gets a lot after a while for me to say, BCAP. But really happy to have Emily on, can't wait to have her back on. And if you have any questions, you can leave a comment on Spotify, YouTube, You can hit me up on Instagram at how to protect the ocean. So many different ways of getting a hold of me. I'm on LinkedIn as well. So feel free to connect with me there. There's just so many ways. And I will listen to you in any kind of way. So that's the whole point of this is to start

the conversation by presenting you the information. Love to hear your feedback. That's really, really important to me. But thank you so much for joining me. That's it for today's podcast. So thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and