Today's episode is all about plastic pollution. Not only in the ocean, but also on land and how we deal with it as regular citizens of whatever country you're part of. We are enthralled in a plastic world. Plastic is everywhere. It's in our drinking containers. It's in our coffees. It's in our bodies. It's in our lungs. It's in our air molecules. It's everywhere. It's
all in our oceans. and there are although there are ways to try and get them out at scale we still don't have a way to extract plastic from the ocean and we don't really have a way to stop it at this point we know what we need to do but to try and get plastic out of our oceans and try to get plastic out of our environment is very very difficult right now there's a global plastic treaty that's being negotiated at this point in time there's a fifth
meeting that was just happened in South Korea it didn't go very well just like the Ottawa one in the summer did not go very well why because the oil and gas companies sent their lobbyists to the negotiations to derail them and they were pretty much successful to the point where now a lot of the countries are demanding voluntary standards like voluntary benchmarks, and that's just not going to work. So I wanted to have a conversation with
someone who was involved in plastics. And so Natasha Tucker, who's been on the podcast before, friend of the podcast from Mind Your Plastic in Canada, decided, hey, you know what? Let's have a conversation. She wanted to give me updates about Mind Your Plastic. She wanted to talk about some of our programs. But we basically just had a general conversation on plastic pollution in general and how to deal with it. We talked a lot about
what's happening in Canada. We talk a lot about what's happening in the world and how we are all just reacting to the changes that are needed to be met and how people aren't very good at changing their habits. We just know that. And that's just something that we need to talk about. So that's what we're going to talk about on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey
everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I am your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by
taking action. And on today's episode, we're gonna be talking all about plastic pollution, how it affects our bodies, how it affects our oceans, how it affects our water bodies, and how it affects our environment in general. And I'm gonna tell you right now, It's not good. It's not affecting us in very positive ways. Except if you own a company that produces plastic, you're making a ton of money. That's
really what it comes down to making money. We have a lot of conversation about today with Natasha Tucker, who is the executive director of Mind Your Plastic. It's a Canadian charity that talks about getting rid or that works with a variety of different people to get rid of plastic in Canada. And not necessarily just get rid of like an all out ban, but work with companies and work with restaurants and manufacturers and offices and people all around Canada to reduce and refuse the use
of plastic pollution. She's got a great story, a great sort of foundation. She's been on the podcast before, but she's got a great origin
story of how she became involved in plastic. She wasn't a scientist, She's a business person, she was in retail, and she basically decided to like at one point in her life she realized that plastic pollution was a huge problem, got more inspired by picking up plastic pollution on beaches in Vancouver, and then eventually started up an organization that eventually became Mind Your Plastic here in
Canada. We talked to her about all things plastic, how it influences our bodies, how it influences the environment, and how we can stop it through policies and education. And I think it's really, really interesting. There's a lot of stories that she brings up, bringing a crew of about 20 people to pick up plastic pollution and just pollution and do a beach cleanup in Cherry Beach in Toronto, which you would think wouldn't be that bad, Yeah, it was just
as bad. And we talked a little bit about where that source comes from, how to clean up, how to educate, and how to stop that from happening. Just a lot of just interesting conversation on plastic and where we are today within our plastic world, really, is what it really comes out. I feel like there's a documentary to be made about
plastic, and I'm sure there's been some that have been made. I know there have been some that have been made and some that are on the way, but we really need something to really show what we're doing to our planet with this plastic revolution, and we really need to revolt against the use of most plastics. But with that said, I interviewed Natasha. It was a great conversation. It was a little longer than normal, so buckle up. It's a lot of fun, and
Natasha was fantastic. Looking forward to having her back. Here's the interview with Natasha Tucker, Executive Director of Mind Your Plastic here in Canada. Enjoy the interview, and I will talk to you Hey, Natasha, welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about plastics and No problem. Thank you for coming back. I'm excited
for this interview. I'm excited for all my interviews, but I'm excited for this interview because this is kind of like an update on plastics, not only in our oceans, but in Canada. We've seen a lot done in Canada. And you were here in 2022 when some of the stuff was still being passed or still being discussed in the Canadian government. And since then, the federal government has passed sort of like a plastics framework, and then they put in a law for specific plastics to be banned.
That has been challenged, that has been won in court, and now it's being appealed at this point. I don't know the response to that appeal. I'm not sure if that's still ongoing. Maybe we can get into it today. But then there's also been the plastics treaty that, you know, I haven't discussed in a little bit. The fifth meeting was done in South Korea just recently. So getting an update on that, but just getting an update on your organization, because things have changed. And
just a whole bunch of things on plastics. Plastics, people want to know. We are engaged with plastics every single day of our lives. And it's always good to find out more about it and how we can not only reduce our uses, but refuse our uses as well. So welcome again, Natasha. And for the people who haven't heard the last episode you were on, can you just remind them of who you are
Absolutely. So my name is Natasha Tucker and I'm the executive director of Mind Your Plastic and Mind Your Plastic is a registered Canadian charity. We're focused on eliminating plastic pollution and how we do that is really through preventative measures. So we like to use the analogy of if your bathtub was overflowing with water, what would you do? Would you grab a mop and start cleaning it up or would you turn off that tap? We
like to turn off that tap. So what we tend to focus on is how we can prevent plastic pollution from getting into our environment through advocating for stronger policies and regulations on plastic production and plastic use, finding those true alternatives for a circular economy, and of course, making sure that folks are educated about That's obviously a great mission. How did And this is Oscar, my office assistant. Hi, Oscar. How are you, buddy? He's a
little shy. He actually just won our team holiday party. We had a who was the best dressed. Nice. And You were like, hey, I'm worried about my cat coming out. I'm like, this is a pet friendly podcast. We love it. There's a video now out for this so that people Yeah, anyone who's ever been on a call with me knows that Oscar always makes Absolutely. He's part of Mind Your Plastic. He's
very concerned and so he wants to help out. Speaking of which, how did your journey start, you know, with plastics and sort of your knowledge of plastics and understanding the impact it has on not only our ocean's health and our land health, but also on our Yeah. Uh, it's, it's such a long and winding road to how I got here. You know, my, my background is, is in business management and procurement and a lot of, a lot of time spent, uh,
in my early career in, in retail and management. And, uh, I remember back many, many years ago, having the opportunity to move from where I was on the East to the West and working with a big store. You might've heard of it called Target. There was that Target Canada expansion that happened. I was fortunate enough to be a part of that. And then thankfully I was not a part of it during the
end of it. However, you know, through my time, I remember moving to Vancouver and, you know, having been from the coast, I'm aware of the ocean, but I was never really that Yeah you know i appreciated it but didn't know a lot about it and wasn't that well connected to it and i went to vancouver and one of the first things i did when i got there was i went to the aquarium cuz i wanted to really have
that opportunity to get to a level with some of these really. Amazing charismatic creatures that you always hear about and it was really through my first visit there i walked in was like i. never want to leave here cause it's just so fascinating. Um, but it was really, you know, what, what got me invested in this was one of the animals that was there at the time was a rescued Pacific white-sided dolphin. And her name was Helen. And she was a lot different
than, you know, the regular dolphins that you would see. Um, because she was actually there because she was rescued, um, from Japan where she was caught in fixed fishing nets. And as a result of that, she actually had her pectoral fins. partially amputated. So as a result of human activities and us, she was actually deemed to live a life in human care and in captivity. And that really, really struck a nerve for me. And really, it was through that time there, I never really left
the aquarium. I started volunteering, started volunteering with the Marine Mammal Rescue Center and really becoming obsessed with human impacts and what we've done to the aquatic environment and the environment in general. And through my time volunteering with the aquarium, seeing how you know, sea lions off of the west coast of Vancouver Island are getting entangled in the packing straps around their necks. And to me, that was just such a stark, stark moment to realize how
we impact the environment. And but at the same time, recognizing my background of being retail, and it's very a different shift to go from that world into conservation. And You know, it was really that opportunity through my time working with the aquarium to really take some of these very complex, nuanced conversation topics and really make them accessible for the general public, to make it impactful for them and to make them walk out of there feeling like they're going to do something
differently because of what they saw, much like my experience. So that was really where it all started for me. And and, you know, even through my time there, becoming more aware of human impacts Again, more often than not, they're completely unintentional, but can be so, so impactful to the environment around us. And even I found myself on my lunch breaks because
I wanted to do something. So outside of the education, what I found myself doing was going to the beach every day on my lunch break because I was so fortunate to have that as my, you know, office. And cleaning up. you know, debris. Every day on the same beach, I would pick up styrofoam and then other consumer garbage and things that were just being washed up. And that just really got me just inspired by just how much work there is to do here and
just wanting others to join me in that. And through that long and winding road, just found myself, you know, in this position where, you know, we're able to influence the change outside of, again, just that mopping up the spill, if you will, from your overflowing bathtub into really influencing the change that needs to happen outside of the cleanup. So those are obviously incredibly important, but there's
more to it than just that. So that's how we And why was it a beach cleanup that really, that was your action? You know, there's a lot of problems in the ocean. You know, we have overfishing, we have climate change, you know, what made you in particular, like, I think I have an idea, but what made you in particular choose, you know what, I'm going to clean this You know what, it was something I felt I could do. You know, it
was accessible. And again, you hear more often than not, you know, there's a lot of folks out there trying to solve these issues. You know, there's so much research happening and the impacts and recognizing that my background isn't that super strong when it comes to the academics. It's not strong when it comes to biology or animal care. But you know what? This is something I can do. I can clean up. I can pick stuff up on the way. And I can also inspire others because they're
asking me why I'm doing this. They're asking me what I'm doing. And hopefully, that's inspiring them to get involved. And again, it's just that That gateway, in a way, and that's what I really found for me as well as for other folks who did get involved.
You know, we know that cleaning up isn't going to solve the problem, but it is that awareness that when you get to clean up and you see you're picking up a lot of here in Nova Scotia, a lot of Tim Hortons cups or a lot of Starbucks cups, a lot of cigarette butts, a lot of the same, so many cigarette butts, and a lot of the same items that you're seeing. So not only are you cleaning that up, but then after a while you start to think, Well, I'm still picking up the same thing.
And it's not really changing. It's not changing my consumption habits. And realistically, you start to realize, well, the more I use, it's very likely I'm going to be picking up my own garbage in a few years or a few months, few days, whatever it might be. It's all going to end up here at some point if we're not smart about it. How can that then turn into creating bigger action that, of course, the cleanups are important, but then it starts to spiral into that awareness piece
of, oh, you know what? Maybe I'll skip the straw today, or maybe I'll skip the Tim Hortons cup, and I'll bring my own cup today. So it's an accessible action that you can do. It's more than just the cleaning up activity. It's really what it helps teach Yeah, 100%. I completely agree. I'm glad you told us that story in terms of sort of how you got into cleaning up beaches. Obviously, it's a thankless job at times, but it obviously inspired you
to change your entire direction of your career, which is huge. big pivot, you know, and that takes a lot of guts to do. How did you pivot? Like what made you decide? And then what made you, did you go right to, obviously not Mind Your Plastics, but like Yeah, well, honestly, so I mentioned, you know, I was in Vancouver, working for Target. And I remember when it started to shift for me, it's very, very stark. I
remember helping to open up the store. And for those who are in Vancouver, the Metrotown location, which is one of the biggest locations that was opened up. And I remember being a part of the assembly team. We got all the fixtures into the store. We had everything ready to go, and it was a well-organized plan. And then I remember we had everything set up. And, you know, I would have thought that from a from a planning standpoint, that we would only get the fixtures that
we need. Or you might get a few extra to accommodate if there's something missing or errors or whatnot. Not the case. We had excessive amounts of fixtures left over. So not only are these fixtures big pieces of metal, but they're all wrapped in plastic. They're all wrapped in styrofoam. There's all this stuff. And when I asked, what are we doing with those? And this is, again, not from a perspective of waste management at that point and reduction. This is just me being curious. They're
just all getting thrown out. They're not going to a centralized location to be redistributed. They're just getting thrown out, is what I was told. And to me, I'm like, that is so wasteful, not only from a business standpoint, the money, but more importantly, just the
resources that were put into that. What a concept and so that was a really really interesting moment and then through my time working in big box that was my first experience in big box and seeing the waste of you know you have something that is expired by a day. Maybe we could give it to people who need it, or in corporate world, we just throw it out because it's a liability to give food away.
And I just remember seeing trucks of food just being thrown out, perfectly good food, and packaging too, of course, right? Perfectly good items that just weren't Valuable to hold up shelf space so to me that was really a moment where. You know i started thinking about it a little bit more and then as i mentioned through my time volunteering at the aquarium it was just so apparent to me that there's more to what i need to do then to. sell stuff for a big box store. There's no disrespect
or discredit to whoever is doing that. It's needed, but that's not where I'm needed, and that's not where I want to continue to grow. And again, thinking of my background being in buying and logistics, and I'm like, This just
seems backwards. So, so yeah, transitioning to my time at the aquarium and, and, again, that was so impactful for me because not only was it just, you know, working with the visitors and being able to engage folks from, you know, child, you know, little ages, all the way up to folks who have, you know, been around this type of stuff their whole lives, but they're still learning something new. And
that was so impactful. But then, you know, a few years after working at the Aquarium, being in Vancouver, Being from the East Coast, it called me back. There's no aquariums here in Halifax, so it wasn't really an easy transition back. So I found myself back in the retail world. Instead of big box, I found myself at a Starbucks where I started working as a manager. The intent with that was, you know, I was thinking, well, you know, I have the sustainability mindset. I
have this reduction. I've been a part of so many great programs and initiatives at the aquarium, including banning plastic bottles at the facility. you know, what can be done here from the inside within Starbucks? And what I learned is, you know, it was a great learning opportunity to see what a big corporation like that could do, and what's possible, and what happens you
know, when they could do something and they're not. You know, so through my time there, it was really interesting to see what was available to the stores in terms of what's possible. And one thing I'd started there was a A sustainability group in my district and having this perspective of how harmful plastic is not only for the environment, but like. For humans, yeah, I don't really want to be drinking hot liquids out of plastic lined cups. We'll probably
get into that later, but plastic soup. No, thank you. Um, so some initiatives we started in store were just, again, you know, those little green sticks, you don't need them. Uh, and, and again, starting even not even getting rid of things, but just the simple language change of, Hey, Andrew,
would you like that coffee for here? Yeah and they say yep and i'm like great instant mug yeah hey andrew do you want that sandwich for here instant plate fork and knife real no. Wouldn't stuff cuz who likes that anyways right who don't you want to eat with a regular fork and knife right so those are some of the little things that we started and it worked so well and i stopped spending my story money on. garbage that was costing me money,
right? So yeah, so really that was my most recent experience before finding Mind Your Plastic and really having this opportunity to not only affect change from the inside from one store So it's been a- Sorry to interrupt, but this is interesting too, because from a Starbucks point of view, a lot of people look at Starbucks back in the 2010s and so forth, they were known to be progressive. They wanted to reduce, they had it in their mission, their overall corporate mission to reduce plastics, to
get more sustainable. They came out, they're from the West Coast, they're from Seattle area. They're They just want it to be more environmentally friendly. At some point, though, they started to take all of that out, that language out of their corporate policies. So it's interesting to hear that managers can make that difference without changing up a lot, necessarily, where you're maybe ruffling some feathers for that area. But
you're asking simple questions. A lot of people do stay in store to drink their coffees or to have their their bagels or their sandwiches or what have you, and they will tend to use plates or mugs. Like you said, it's nicer to have, it's nicer to drink out of, it's nicer to use rather than a paper plate or plastic or anything like that. I like that idea of just changing the language without even making it such a big deal. It's just more of like, hey, let's foster
a community here. Do you want to stay? Exactly. Oh, great. Here you go. That's really great. And I can imagine people up top, the offices are probably like, they don't even know about it. They're just like, oh, OK, this is great. I really like that idea because I have a very negative sort of thought process when it comes to Starbucks because of so much plastics and because of the changes that they've made to almost double down on plastic containers. But I like the fact that managers can make
that difference. All it needs is a little bit of that education to get there. And you mentioned in their district, so was it just the one store or did you get together with other stores, like Yeah, so what I was empowered by my district, which was really, really fantastic. I don't know that that's going to be the same story for others. However, for me, I was empowered to take this on because the managers or the district leaders
knew that this was very important to me. And it was ultimately what was keeping me there was that opportunity because for me, I can be a manager somewhere, but what's important is really affecting change. So I was fortunate to be able to rally everyone in our district to have a sustainability lead at each store. And so each store had an appointed person who was similar to myself. It didn't have to be a store manager. It could be a really engaged barista
who just wanted to be a part of making a difference. So it was really lovely to have that opportunity to get together. and then COVID happened. So we had about two or three, we had about two or three meetings with everyone where we talked about ways to make our stores more sustainable and again, to promote that reusability, or at least for here, where that better experience, frankly, to what you mentioned. And yeah, and then COVID happened and obviously then the world
Yeah. Sustainability. You know, it was interesting with COVID because we got a better environment just because less people. Yeah. But we also got worse in the fact that we started using less reusable items. It was more one-off, single-use, like let's pollute Yeah, it was so damaging for the reuse movement. Because again, I even think of those times you couldn't even bring your own reusable bag to the grocery store.
So we went back a couple of years. But There is a bit of a movement to encourage people to get back to where we were before because people are still in that COVID mindset. A lot of people have gone to, if I just think of daily things that we did or that I know people have done and continue to do, we don't do this anymore, but people still get their groceries delivered. And when you get your groceries
delivered, a lot of the times they come in plastic bags. So all that work to get rid of the single-use plastic bag for groceries has kind of gone reversal in that. And I'm sure, I don't know what the statistics are, but I'm sure that has increased compared to before COVID. People realize it's more convenient. It's a little bit more expensive, but it's more convenient and they get what they want and they can still do other things without growing. going to the grocery store.
So yeah, so there's that. So that's one sort of example that has come up that where it's like, oh yeah, well, we still need to get out of that mindset that we can use reusable things. I think that's really interesting. Okay, so Mind Your Plastic comes into play. You start Mind Your Plastic, but it wasn't always Mind Your Plastic. That's been a recent thing. So can you just kind of tell us a little bit the changes that Sure, yeah. So I mean, the last time you and I spoke back in 2022, which
is crazy. So when we spoke last, we were actually, we had a different name as an organization. And at that time, we were very focused on the impact of plastic in our oceans. And the organization's focus there was aligned very much with an international organization that had a few different locations that were promoting similar work. And the work was incredibly important, but again, more on the mopping
up, if you will. So again, a lot of the cleanups, which is really important, as well as the in-school education, So again, not to say that that stuff isn't important, but what we feel like in Canada that is missing at the time was really that who is focused just on plastic in the environment. There's a ton of work happening in this space with amazing NGOs, but no
one's focused just on plastic. And no one's focused on just on plastic from a policy perspective on working with businesses and helping them find true alternatives and not just you know the thing that everyone else does which is like switch to compostables which is. Yeah. Absolute garbage. I'm sure we'll get to that later. But who is actually helping municipalities affect
change? Who is helping businesses make these transitions? And while we, of course, still have an education mandate, what we've realized is we can affect the masses through providing education programs for schools across Canada. We don't need to be the ones delivering that program in person. we can affect change on a massive scale by being able to deliver the materials and
the resources, which is what we've now done. So what we did ultimately in 2022 in July is we took a step back from the international organization and truly became an independent Canadian organization called Mind Your Plastic with the goal of eliminating plastic pollution in Canada. So again,
the oceans are still obviously very much a part of that. But what we learned in that transition is there were so many Canadians that They don't feel connected to the issue of plastic pollution if we're only talking about plastic in the oceans. Again, in Ontario, do
we care that much about plastic in the oceans when there's no ocean around? And again, our friends in Alberta and Saskatchewan and all these areas that are essentially landlocked for the most part, do they have that same level of care if it's about oceans? And what we've learned since the transition is we still absolutely have our Vancouver and our Halifax base, but the buy-in and support from places like Alberta and Saskatchewan have been
huge. We've seen such a huge uptick, especially in our education programs in those communities, which has been so great to see and really reaffirms you know, the transition Yeah, speaking of that connection, it's really interesting. As an organization, how do you, you know, have people understand, like your constituents understand that connection and
the effect of that connection? Because I'll tell you from what I've experienced online and just from people even in my own family, My kids don't necessarily think about plastic pollution when they are going to Starbucks or when they're having a coffee. Or yes, my kids are that old now that they have coffee. They think they need coffee. Just
wait. Yeah, exactly. Not just the kids. I see everybody like they're just they're having plastic bags and even they're complaining about you know reusable straws or the paper straws now because you're starting to see more and more paper straws. They're starting to complain like people I've seen like and sometimes they're really ridiculous comments on on posts but I start to see like why do we care about a sea turtle that one sea turtle that gets you know, swallows a plastic
straw and like, why should we care? We never see this in Canada, which we know sea turtles do come to Canada. But regardless, like there are people who are just out there almost going against what seems to be a rational thought and like a common sense thought. So you talk about not only the disconnect, but almost the rebellion against a movement, which is like, it's not only protecting the environment, but it's protecting your health. Yet
you just think that this is a normal thing. How do you talk to your constituents in a way where it's like, hey, we have a huge problem Yeah, and that's something that I've been seeing too. And sometimes I find myself reading the comments on things just to see what are people saying who do not align with my values. And even what I saw the other day, Andrew, on TikTok, someone who was saying how she went to the US and she's coming back across the Canadian border and she
has something super illegal and she has to hide it. It's a bunch of straws, like plastic straws from McDonald's. I was like, you know, you can get those in Canada, right? You're not gonna be able to get them maybe at your Tim Hortons, but you can still go buy plastic straws and keep them in your car if you really want to. But you know what we found is is we have to adjust the messaging.
You know, if people don't care about the environment, because some people feel like it's a lost cause at this point, that it's just, you know, I mean, we have climate deniers, who people who think that it's just fake, and it's just not true, still a hoax, absolutely bananas. And, you know, so we have folks who
just straight up aren't subscribing to that. You know that concept at all but then you also just have people who maybe see the environment or like well what is what is one straw doing or what is one starbucks cup doing it's really not in the grand scheme of things contributing or adding that much more and then you know i think everyone's seen that meme on on facebook or instagram that's basically like oh it's One cup said 8 billion people, right? So it
all adds up. But what we really look at is how do we target our messaging to our audience? So what is our audience going to care about? So now I know when I go talk to businesses, sure, I'll talk about the environment. I'm gonna talk about the ROI on the bottom line first and foremost again i use that example of my time at starbucks where. You know we we did transition to reusable i stopped buying sleeves and sleeves of disposable cups that were also wrapped in plastic that also came
wrapped in more like you know so. And what that can do for your business. And again, what are the cost savings? And I think of an example that there's this amazing meal delivery service out in Vancouver called Fresh Prep. And I remember using their service when I first lived there. And at the time, they had this really cool reverse logistics process where it's not like Chef's Plate or HelloFresh or whoever that you order online and it gets delivered to your door. It's instead you get you
would have a pickup. So they would deliver it to you in a bag with all the packaging. It was single use and disposable at the time, but then they would come and pick it up from you. And they said, keep your garbage in there, because they were going to recycle it for you. Because at the time in Vancouver, they still do. You have soft plastics and things like that. What they've now added are reusables. So all of their stuff, to the best of their ability, or most of it, is packaged
in reusable containers. So then when they pick it up, there's no waste to it. And what they discovered is they did a cost analysis. And they said, they will pay for these containers. Yes, it will be a little bit more expensive for them as a business upfront. for eight uses. and they're getting 40 uses out of those
containers. So they're essentially getting 32 free uses out of these versus again, having to buy the single use cheap plastic, not to mention you pay disposal fees on that after a certain period of time when you have so much of it. So again, we like to focus on cost recovery and savings, or depending on who we're speaking to, if we're speaking to health-minded folks, we talk about the plastic impacts on your body. So that again, there's plastic, there are negative implications in every area that
you could possibly care about. So it's really just figuring out what For sure. I love that. I love that idea. It comes down to, it's really interesting, actually, when you look at the benefits of being environmentally friendly overall, not just plastics, but environmentally friendly, you end up coming out better on the financial side. Totally. From an overall perspective, maybe not right in the short term, but you end up being better in the longer term. And we fail to realize this as
a consumer. And I think it has to do with the habit change. I think we are just so resistant to changing our habits that once something new comes in, people will complain about it. You love the plastic straws because we're so used to it. But a paper straw comes into place or or you know, you can get permanent straws or reusable straws Metal and things like that and you're just kind of like well, why do I have to have this? Why can't I just go back to what we just but
it saves you money? Because what like for a metal straw cost you like a dollar thirty or something like that Maybe it's a little bit more now, but it's a dollar thirty compared to buying like stuff where it's a straw after straw after straw after straw it's gonna be more expensive and what are you gonna do you're just gonna throw it out it's gonna be bigger like it just doesn't make any sense and but i just feel like people are so resistant that they'll be stubborn enough to do it i'm a
little bit cynical about it right because it's like i Yeah, don't take my, and I've heard people say this, it's like, I'm so sick of talking about the straw because it became such an icon for the plastic movement, for moving away from plastics, that people are just, that's what they rally against, I'm rallying against the straw. Right? Like aside from people who need it because
of disabilities and things like that. We've, you know, that's implied, but the people who rally against it's like, why do we need to worry about the straw as they sip out of their Starbucks cup or their Tim Hortons cup and things like that here in Canada and Tim Hortons. And you're just sitting there and you're like, do you see the hypocrisy here? Like, like, it's just, I found that the plastic straw was a symbol of
our problem with plastic. It's not just a plastic straw, because I'll tell you, and I've said this a number of times in my podcast, my listeners are probably sick of me saying this, but four months later, after Nathan Robinson and Christine Figner pulled that straw out of a sea turtle, four months later, 70 kilometers south of that beach, Nathan Robinson pulled a plastic fork out of an Olive Ridley sea turtle. So it's not just a
plastic straw, it's plastic everything. And it becomes, like it goes into our system and it comes back along the shoreline and that's how we know about it. And a lot of the places I would imagine in Canada, we don't get the buildup of plastic, but places in India, places in Malaysia, places in Indonesia, in the South Pacific, where their waste management may not be as
strong as ours. they're getting piles and piles of I'll tell you, I had the opportunity to go and work, because our team, we work all remotely. So as long as you have a Wi-Fi connection, we can work from anywhere. So I just, because I'm not much of a cold gal, so I was working for a few weeks in Guatemala, because I
love the country. And I spent a lot of my time on the Pacific coast of Guatemala in a place called El Peridón, It's a surf community and they also have a lot of amazing sea turtle conservation projects happening there because still in the Guatemalan communities, it's still quite common to poach sea turtle eggs, both for either like local cuisine or just for sustenance, for financial
support. So there's a lot of local NGOs there who are trying to still help the locals survive while helping the sea turtles survive. And I've been to Guatemala a few times. It's no secret to me that there's a poor waste management there, a heavy reliance on just single use and disposable plastics. But what was really, really stark for me, and I actually have videos of
this and I'll happily share it with you if it's something you'd like to see. I was that crazy tourist who's at a sea turtle release at six in the morning taking pictures of the beach itself because it was the most heartbreaking scene I'd ever seen because you have 200 baby Olive Ridley sea turtles off going out into the ocean, but what you've seen across the shoreline is just it's decimated with plastic and garbage. And it's not just your tiny styrofoam pieces,
it's everything. It's When I was in Costa Rica, I remember we had a big torrential downpour the night before and the beach was just littered with plastics that wasn't there the day before. And it just came back up and it was like, sandals and alcohol bottles, plastic bottles, as well as just like these pieces of shards of plastic, broken plastic. You can see, like when people say, yeah, microplastic is a problem, like I see Yeah, it's literally right there. You could grab a strainer and
just have, it could be full, right? So, and again, it was just so stark seeing all these beautiful, you know, young creatures going out amidst the very thing that will likely be the result of their demise, right? So it was quite stark. But yeah, again, it just goes to show that it may not be as prevalent here. However, it is if you look. And I think of a cleanup that I did in a few years ago in Toronto, and we had picked a, we wanted
to pick a spot that was relatively accessible for people. Because of course, if it's a corporate cleanup, you know, you want to make sure folks can get there quite easily. We don't want it to be in the middle of nowhere. So we picked a spot called Cherry Beach. Yeah. And it was funny because we got there and I was there with the folks I was organizing it with. And they were like, Oh my gosh, we, we picked the cleanest beach in Toronto. And
I was like, just wait. And sure enough, we had our group it wasn't a huge group it was probably about 20 people, and we had an hour to clean up. when I tell you I had to force these people to come back because they were so invested in what they were finding and they didn't even make it that far. And they came back and they were like, we are shocked at what we found. And again, you know, I'm always aware of, you know, you know, they get the big pictures of people and
I just collected 3000 pounds of garbage. I don't usually like to focus too much on the weight because you might pick up a bunch of big stuff or you're going to pick up thousands of pieces of small things. And the picture that I have from just the cigarette butts alone, I can't remember the exact amount, but again, I have the picture and it was just a mound of cigarette butts from an hour of cleaning up that beach and amongst many of the other things. So it is happening. It's in our backyard.
It may not be as obvious as if you were to go to some of the places you had listed before. But again, this isn't a place where we do have proper waste management and people are either just choosing to not participate in it for a variety of reasons. Or they just are just disposing of it on their own, which is its own level of frustration, as you can imagine. But it is in
our environment and it is affecting our animals. It's affecting our wildlife and The litter that you picked up for that cleanup, was it mostly coming from the water or is it mostly people that littered while they were at the beach? Because the Cherry Beach is a very popular beach. It's very crowded. It's a large beach too. There's a volleyball. There's all these different activities there.
So was it from like Ontario or is it from just My guess is that a lot of it was found along the tide line, I guess, along the brush and the tree lines and things like that there. But based on what we're finding and the level of degradation, it seemed to be mostly consumer garbage from folks using the park. stuff. It's
not like we were finding stuff that was really, really, again, like heavily degraded. I know we had some folks spending their time along the shoreline, and what they were finding, again, was it wasn't as much, but what they were finding was a lot of stuff in and amongst the bushes along Cherry Beach and the trees and stuff like that. So our guess is it was mostly like park goers versus stuff getting into the environment through like wind transfer or just environmental transfer.
Interesting. That's really interesting. And you know, I feel almost more hopeful for that when it's people that are on the beach because education can be done. Yeah. Even like putting up signage, you know, having people go around, you know, maybe volunteers or something that they can go around and talk to the people. It's like, hey, don't forget, you know, I see you have a lot of stuff. There's bins over here. Can you please put them in
the bins? Just remind them nicely, you know, just having like just having that education. I feel like more hopeful about that. I feel when it gets When it gets less hopeful is when it starts to come in from the water where a lot of the ocean stuff is going. We know the Great Lakes are polluted with plastic. We know that's a fact that's been published in primary journals. But that's what gets me. You're just sitting there like, how do you clean up
this? And it's really from, like you mentioned before, it's from the tap, right? It's back to the analogy of the bathtub and it overflowing with plastic. You just shut the tap off. How do we shut the tap off in Canada? That's the biggest thing. Now I'm saying this knowing, and I mentioned it before, we do have laws in Canada where we're stepping towards the right direction in reducing our production, our usage of plastic, although it is getting challenged as
we knew that was gonna happen. But how do we stop the plastic usage Loaded question, Andrew. Do we have enough time for that? No, I'm just kidding. Let's go. Masterclass in plastic pollution. Yeah, I mean, it's a really Nuance dancer there's so much that we could be doing and you know i think what's really interesting is. You know i grew up in the area of just recycle if you recycle you're doing a great thing and you are basically an environmentalist so. And what we've learned is
that's just that's simply not true. It really is, and I would invite any listeners. There was a report that came out, I believe it was earlier this year, and it was quite lengthy about basically the fraud of plastic recycling and how it was all a scam from the oil and gas industry.
So what Mind Your Plastic has done, because we try to make things a little more easily digestible for the folks who maybe don't have the time to read a 40 to 70 page report and make it maybe a little bit more digestible so we do have something on our website, written by our amazing programs and policy manager Michelle, that just breaks it down a little bit
and I can share the link if you have any. But it's a really great, fascinating read to show how the oil and gas industry really manipulated the facts and spun recycling as a true alternative. And it's just truly not. So recycling does play a part in solving the plastic pollution crisis. Like there are some plastics that are truly highly recyclable, like you think of your clear PET water bottles, those have very high recyclability rates versus say your like bright orange tied laundry
detergent container. Very little end market for something like that or again your plastics that don't have that chasing arrow just because it has that chasing arrow does not therein mean it's recyclable. If you've not heard that before, let me burst that bubble for you real quick. But again, so it's looking at recyclability as a piece of that puzzle. But the way we like to look at it at Mind Your Plastic is really it's a combination of policy change that
needs to happen. We need to regulate this substance. We know it's toxic, despite what is being challenged currently in the federal courts. We know it's toxic. We know it's not good for people. So we need it to be regulated. We need our corporations, our producers, our manufacturers, we need them to also be on board with change. Because again, there is a space for plastic in our economy, but there should not be a space for
plastic pollution in our environment. So we need to figure out what that looks like because it's not reasonable to suggest that all plastic needs to go. It's not pragmatic. That's not our stance as mind your plastic. We know that it is harmful to the environment in a sense, but anything and everything at scale. will have some level of harm. But what we really want to see is how do we keep it from being in our bodies and
affecting our animals and in our environment. So again, we really feel that the policy, it really needs to be driven through policy because corporations we're not going to rely on the good-heartedness of corporations to solve this crisis. They're very likely going to need to be mandated to do it. And as we've seen from the Global Plastics Treaty, if anyone's been following that, we have a lot of countries and industry pushing back on on targets requesting voluntary targets instead. Yeah.
Which voluntary targets... Means nothing. I mean, you can... Yeah, exactly. You volunteer just like Coke's reusable Yeah. My favorite environmental corporate slang is best practices. Right? I find like, Oh, we'll use best practices. Well, why don't you just, if you're going to use the best practices, that means you're going to do what we regulate you to do. They just don't want to be told what to do.
And, you know, I had a conversation on, on, on this podcast with, with Oceana and they mentioned, you know, one of the things that, you know, that, that they talked about when they challenged the ban on the six plastic, six plastics that they want to ban. They said that it wasn't the fact that they were in disagreement of those plastics. What they wanted to do was ban the fact that the government said in the Canadian Environmental Protection
Act that all plastics were toxic. Because what they don't want to do is later on down the road, they don't want the government to say that you can't use the plastics that you make. And so that's what they're worried about. They're worried about the future. They're not worried, they agree with the six plastics, you know, six types and categories of plastics that they want to ban, but they'd rather get rid of that. than to eventually be mandated
to do something else. And I think the next thing that the government wants to do, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Natasha, but is to put in the registry and sort of trace where the plastics go on a day-to-day basis, where they are made and where they end up. And that's basically a traceability and a transparency study. to find out where that goes. balk at spending $100,000 on a project
where they're going to earn billions. And they don't want to spend $100,000 to spend on an environmental assessment just so that they can make sure that this project goes through because they know they're going to make billions on it. You know, and that study could impede them from doing it. And so they don't want to spend any money that they don't have to do. So I think you summed it up perfectly. These
companies do not want to do all this stuff. They have to be mandated to do this because they have too much to lose if they do it. And that kind of tells you something. If you are a business that is that if you're a business that's going to misinform the public, pay to misinform the public on things like climate change, pay to misinform the public and create programs like recycling, which
is just basically big misinformation. I mean, Natasha, when you and I were in school, everybody went to school, you told recycling is the best way to go through things. We know that was fraud. So they're willing to do this to the public. And somehow, they're still getting away with it. And it's effective. They know it's effective, just so that they can make more money. And they don't care about the planet. So these regulations and these global
plastic treaties need to be perfect. And maybe not perfect, but they need to be strict enough to stop these companies from getting
away with murder, essentially. and that is literally yeah and that is that is the crux of it all and they are going to balk at it i mean just even at the the global plastic treaty meetings they've been sending in lobbyists to confuse the messaging to let people know like there's there was rumors that they hired uh minorities to talk about sort of the like why they they want plastics and they're not being heard properly and all this kind of stuff it's it's just I had the chance to go to, when
there were the negotiations in Ottawa, I was able to go and I remember walking through the Ottawa airport with signs everywhere because clearly they knew that it was going to be full of delegates that were there for the plastics treaty. There were signs basically showing the
comparison of with plastic and without. So they were their example, the favourite example for the plastics industry for food Is the cucumber what happens to a cucumber if it's not wrapped in plastic it's going to become much so that it's just essentially promoting plastic and you know why it's good and why we need it and they were just all these varied advertisements throughout the airport. I was like, you guys are really trying hard on
this. And again, similarly, throughout the discussions, I mean, I wasn't myself in the room for the treaty negotiations, but there were a whole bunch of side events that were happening. And it was so interesting, again, to see who wasn't in the room and why not.
And of course, you have a lot of small NGOs like ourselves or a lot of folks who came across who were the the waste pickers from, you know, Southeast Asia who again weren't able to be in the room, but they're the ones who are dealing with this problem head on in their communities. But of course, sure, let's have the lobbyists for Shell or whoever, in the room at the treaty negotiations, who again are sharing facts and even seeing receptions sponsored by
the PET industry at the Plastics Treaty. So it was very interesting. I did not have the chance to go to Busan, but I would have loved to have gone just
Well, I mean, that's the thing, right? I think people don't realize when we start to put treaties like these together, even like the Paris Accord, the Convention of Biological Diversity, the Global Plastic Treaty, when there are when there are players in there that stand to make a ton of money, they are going to do whatever possible to make sure that those treaties are bogus and to make sure that nothing happens with those treaties.
And then what ends up eventually happening is people are like, well, nobody's following these treaties anyway, so why are we bothering? And that's the messaging that gets perpetuated on social media. And a lot of the times when you go back to the original source, It's like from a PR firm that's hired by an oil and gas company or by the Fraser Institute or by all this kind of stuff. It's ridiculous. It's frustrating as hell for you, for me, for a lot of people
who are trying to do better and make sure. I'm not trying to stop people from making money. I think what we're all trying to do is to make sure that we are all safe, that the environment is safe, and that we are not disturbing the environment further than what we are doing right now. We are trying to reduce that impact. And I think something that's been really interesting too is realizing that the fossil fuel industry has a heavy, a heavy
stake in making plastics because it's a petroleum product. That's kind of interesting. Do you have any comment on that? Were you surprised when you heard that? I think it was like 30% or 33% of the financial gains from oil and gas were from plastics, them making plastics. Were you surprised at that? Yeah, let's start with that. Not really, no I wasn't surprised because again you have to think
it comes from the ground, it comes from oil. Of course they're going to be making a ton of money on it and again of course they're going to be incredibly resistant and it makes a lot of sense when
you look at again what's being subsidized by our government. So it's interesting to see that Again, the challenges we're having as a federal government regulating plastics when we've seen it, I'm sure it wasn't easily done, but it seems to be at least better received in places like the UK, where there's already really progressive policy in terms of we're seeing produce being put out without packaging and
they have very strict targets that they're looking to move towards. And here in Canada, Again, even banning those items, I mean, I'm happy to see it, but I'm still critical of it because at the same time, it's again, you see these plastics being banned, but then compostables or non-conventional plastics are a part of it, but not for everything. we can still have non-conventional plastics for food containers, even though there is no viable end of life for those
compostable or non-conventional plastics. But in certain applications, it's okay. So, I mean, I think, again, you know, it's very interesting to see that there are quite obviously subsidies to the fossil fuels industry from our federal government, yet we're still trying to regulate the materials here as a country. I think there's more work to be done. I don't know that bans are really and truly going to do it. Because again, as you've mentioned, you have people just being frustrated by
the lack of convenience in their day-to-day life. And really, that puts a lot of onus on the consumer to change their behaviors. Which, sure, I think consumers do need to change their behaviors to an extent so that this is just the norm. When you go out, it's just the norm. Why do we need to have a plastic bag for three items and get another plastic bag? That's the bare minimum. But really, that ban, again, happy to see some movement, but why aren't we putting
more focus on the corporations? Because that's where I think a lot of people are starting to get frustrated by all of this is, you know, again, I've seen the memes on social media where it's like me stepping out of a soggy paper straw, while Taylor Swift takes a jet across the country to watch the Chiefs play a game, you know what I mean? So, again, no shade, Swifties, don't come for me. But it's, again, just
that criticism. It's fair criticism. It is, and it's like, why am I so inconvenienced from my regular day-to-day routine when I just want to enjoy my Starbucks in a paper plastic soup cup? Why am I being held accountable and why is my life changing when, again, these corporations where, again, we have Coke who can just eliminate their reusables targets, no problem, no one bats an eye. And again, they're going to continue to be the world's top polluter and no
one cares. McDonald's will fund studies that have no real scientific data or sources in it at all saying that reuse isn't a solution, right? So it's, again, I think people just want to see the corporations held accountable Yeah. And even lead, you know, lead in these types of things and these types of movements. I think that would be great to see, you know, and that comes with leaders that come from
the top. And I think it should be less about only making money and more about making money, but also having an impact. That's why I love the B Corps, you know, that comes out with that type in the for in the sort of the social enterprises where it's like impact and money like hey Nobody's stopping you from making money, You know, I think exactly they can coexist Exactly
I want to just talk. I know I know we've been talking for a while We've been kind of all over the place, but and I love these conversations but what I wanted to talk about are some of your programs, you know, you have a huge task ahead of you in Mind Your Plastic. Obviously, you can't do it on your own and you have a small staff for the amount of work that you're able to accomplish. So, Sure, yeah. And you're right, we are a very small team. It's really
myself and we have two other full-time staff. And otherwise, our staff is really just dependent on when we have staffing grants. As many grassroots organizations, I'm sure that's no secret to them. And then, obviously, an incredible team of volunteers who are helping us get a lot of this work accomplished. anyone from volunteers who help us with SEO, to posting on social media, to helping us tackle how
to implement reuse in stadiums. So there's a really, really broad amount of work that's covered by our team. In terms of our programming, as I mentioned earlier, our main focus is our municipal policy change, how we can help businesses transition away from, again, these single use or disposable items towards stronger, you know, circular solutions such as, you know, reuse and introduction first and foremost, as well as doing our
direct action and education programming. So that generally looks like our, you know, being out in the community, you know, as you mentioned, doing cleanups and engaging and educating. but also our education program that's in schools across Canada called the Circular Economy Ambassador Program. I think when you and I would have talked the last time, it might have been right after the first year or something, when we had 450 participants
in four provinces. And in the second and third year, seeing those numbers grow into the two and three thousands. And then this year we're sitting at almost 4,000 participants, which has been so amazing to see and you know our goal as well as always to have it not only you know in certain spots in Canada we want to have it in all true areas of all provinces because not only is this program teaching students about plastic pollution Um, but part of their curriculum
is to go out and do a cleanup. Um, and you know, again, kind of like my story is, you know, you're going to clean stuff up. You're not going to pick up thousands and thousands of pounds of stuff, but what you are going to learn is what is prevalent in your community. And most of the time, these students are picking up their own garbage. So again, they have that connection to it and be like, Oh, you know, and maybe, maybe I should try something different at home or. advocate for maybe a
different snack or whatever it might be. But then they're also, you know, we give them those tools and materials to look at what they're finding. And, you know, say that, you know, they're in Halifax, we give them the waste management rules here by the city of what they should do with what they find and where it should be diverted to. most of the time, 9 chances out of 10, they're going to learn that what they're finding is actually, there is
no end of life for it. It's just garbage. But that therein emphasizes the importance of, well, looking at what you found and what are the alternatives? Are there alternatives? And if there aren't, well, how do we make sure that there are alternatives? So this program is really a caveat for it, or sorry, not a caveat, but a conduit for them to really have that critical thinking about what they're using. And to your point, you know, when you have, you know, your kids who
are like thinking, oh my, what does this one Starbucks cup mean? I don't even think about it being pollution. But when you start to pick up those items and you're seeing it, you start to think about it as pollution at that point when you make that connection. So that program's been really amazing to see grow. And what we started doing since you and I started, or since you and I spoke last was, a pre and post survey for the students. So essentially,
what do they know going into the program? What do they know about plastic pollution, about the impacts? What is a circular economy? What are their behavioral instincts when it comes to if they do care about reducing and what does that look like for them? And then we survey them at the end of the program basically the same questions to really see, have they learned anything?
And what's been really interesting to see, we're still compiling the results from this past year, but in the third year of the program, or sorry, the second year, what we saw was that at the beginning, so many students put recycling as their main way to solve the plastic pollution crisis. At the end of the program, we actually saw that significantly decrease and see varied increases in other areas. So for example, we saw more students say reuse
is important or we need to reduce, we need to find alternatives. So that was exactly what we want to see because again, we know that recycling isn't the only way to solve the problem. So seeing that program grow has been really, really fulfilling and rewarding. especially again, seeing the distribution across Canada and seeing, you know, really pick up in places like the prairies where previously we hadn't had a footprint there. So seeing the support from
those communities has been really, really great. And again, hopefully what we do with that data that we're collecting from all these students and all these schools, is we're then able to go to the communities themselves and identify what's happening in their communities. Even I've gone to my counselors here in Halifax saying 40% of what my students picked up here is takeaway
food packaging. What are we gonna do about that? And again, that's where Mind Your Plastic can also come in with our, again, municipal policy support, as well as helping businesses find those true alternatives so that they're not just Again, it's doing that one for one swap of plastic straws for paper or plastic packaging to compostable packaging that it seems to be so Yeah, and it seems here like you have, I guess, a business part where
it's like a plastic kit or a reduction plastic kit. Yeah. Can Yeah. So for our business side of things, we have a program called the Plastic Awareness and Reduction Toolkits. So those are on our website and they are absolutely free to download. What we've created are four different toolkits that help walk various industries like manufacturing, retail, food services, office and admin. It just, it serves as like a basic guide to how
to eliminate plastic in your business. And it goes through the like, you know, what are the best things that you could be doing if you really want to, you know, if you have the resources and you're keen to go through and get rid of all these plastics in your workplace. If you don't have those resources or if you're not quite there yet, what are some of the great things that you could be doing? And then if you're still not able to do that, where can you start and
start to build up? So these are, again, they're meant to be quite general in nature, but at least as a starting point. And this was really born out of, you know, again, recognizing that a lot of the businesses that I spoke to around my community There was some great work happening to, this was before the ban, to eliminate single-use plastics, more so from food services and small cafes and whatnot. And speaking with them, what a lot of them did,
they didn't implement reuse. They didn't allow people to bring their own cups or anything like that. What they did do is they swapped for compostables, they swapped for different materials, but it was still disposable. And the unfortunate part with that is we know small businesses are not, they don't have great margins usually. Usually they tend to be more passion
projects, they're not getting rich for the most part. So what is equally disappointing is when there's folks who want to do the right thing, And they're trying, but the unfortunate thing is a lot of these alternatives are expensive. They're 30% more. So when you switch to compostables, it's more money. And it's actually worse for the environment because there is no true end of life for these compostable
materials. There does not exist a municipality in Canada that can break down these compostable items. It doesn't exist. So these toolkits are really just designed to give that basic knowledge to folks who are interested. And then what we're able to do then is if there needs to be more customization. So for example, we're working with a, it's an international transportation and logistics company, and we're working with their Canadian division, cause they've been mandated get
rid of single-use plastics in our operations. Take an assessment, look at it all, and get rid of it." And they're looking at It's not easy. What do we do? Yeah. It's not easy. So that's where we come in to help them do those assessments, look at what's, again, what's reasonable. What are those low-hanging fruit that you can at least pull back and eliminate off the hop with very
minimal you know, barriers to success. And then what are those maybe a little bit more complicated ones that might involve, you know, getting your suppliers on board? You know, I think of an example of a business that I've spoken to, that all their items were coming individually, they were clothing, they were individually wrapped, each article of clothing was wrapped, even like every and This is very common. Every piece of underwear, every pair of socks, it's all individually
wrapped. So again, looking at your supplier and saying, does it all need to be individually wrapped? Maybe if we need to bulk wrap some of it, if it's not completely reasonable to get rid of every single plastic bag, or even you think of stuffed animals, usually they're they have plastic beads inside of them, nurdles is what they're called.
So instead of those, is there something else we can be using? So looking at what are the you know, not only the better things for the environment, but also that are still sustainable from a financial standpoint, and that can also recognize cost recovery options. So that's a bit about our toolkits. And again, there's those four industries that we chose to focus on because, you know, given our alignment with the Canada Plastics Pact and the Circular Economy Leadership Council of
Canada. Those were the four that we had folks in those industries look through, vet, and we felt we had the best alignment there. But of course, there's opportunities to reduce plastic in literally any industry. So we're always happy to chat reduction measures. You can always reach out if that's ever something that folks listening want some Well, and I think it's so interesting because you gain so
much experience working with these companies to find it. Because a lot of the times, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, of course, you're probably looking for first-time things. If an entire transportation company is trying to get rid of single use, That's a challenge in every aspect of the way because it's not as if that is like those differences or those changes are abundant in every company because we've just been doing probably the cheapest way, which is
just disposing of everything. And so I think that the experience that you're gaining from these four, the retail, food service, manufacturing and office administration, you're probably gaining so much more experience each and every time you work with an organization or a company to say, let's help you out here. And I love how the fact that you're able to do that. I think that's great. That's a great partner program. I
think that's wonderful. You have one more program on your website that talks about the plastic free events when you work with municipalities. So a little bit of a larger scale. So you've got like the classroom scale, you've got the business scale. Now you're working with municipalities to do plastic free events. How difficult is to get the municipalities to be on board with it, it is a bit challenging. And it becomes a little more challenging depending on
where you are. So for example, here in Halifax, it is a bit more challenging because we don't have reused serviceware providers that would support at events. Because if you think of when you go to an event, whether it's your community backyard barbecue all the way up to a Taylor Swift concert taking over a city for a week, You know, you look at those venues and what they all have in common is they use disposables. There is a way around it, but it's not the easiest way around it.
So our Plastic Free Events Policy Program was really born out of recognizing that, you know, as a small organization, as I mentioned, we're three full-time staff. You know, so to advocate and to, you know, look at federal level policy changes is outside of scope in terms of the capacity that we have as an organization. But also, you know, we feel really strongly that a lot of this change that is happening in Canada, it starts at a municipal level first. And again, I
can think of Halifax. We banned plastic bags like 15 years ago, if not more. So a lot of this change happens from a municipal level, moves up to provincial, and then eventually might get adopted by the feds. And again, the federal plastic ban, a lot of those items that are included in that ban have already been banned
by many municipalities already, and even some provinces. You know, we really feel that advocating on a municipal level is accessible for us as an organization and is really where we see the change starting to happen anyways, because, again, you have passionate people who are empowered to create change in their communities. What we did notice is, again, I've talked about how bans can
work, but they can also be very alienating. Again, think of the plastic straws that people are smuggling across the border, even though they can totally still buy them here, but whatever. People get upset when you try and change the behaviors. So what we look at is, you know, We see plastic free events happening in certain places in the US, we see them happening in the UK, and we feel it's a really low-hanging fruit way to introduce people to what's possible in terms of reuse and
reduction. So again, I even think of one of our partners, ShareWares, which is a reusable cup or food serviceware provider. that's working with places like Tim Hortons in Vancouver as well as your other local coffee shop so that when you go and you don't remember to bring your own reusable mug or maybe you're a tourist and you're on the go, you don't want to carry around a reusable mug with you. Fair enough, I get
it. But what you can do is you can get a reusable cup, pay a deposit, return it somewhere else in the city and get your deposit back or donate it to a charity like
Mind Your Plastic. So what's been really cool to see is organizations like ShareWares have even been able to go into places like BC Place for the Taylor Swift concert so that instead of cracking a beer and pouring it into a single-use plastic cup, it's being put into a reusable cup that is now then going to get sanitized and reused and
put back into circulation. So when you look at plastic free events, that's kind of what we're looking at is how do you influence that on large scale events, or even again, when we're working with the city of Nanaimo, for example, on how when they have just a community event, you have a rib fest or whatever it might be, something as simple as Having water refill stations instead of $6 bottles
of water that no one wants to buy. Let's be honest. But then even how do you identify cost recovery savings for your vendors? So again, maybe they have to pay to use this service or to have their event permit. But there's a cost recovery because they're not having to pay to use all of their disposable forks, knives, ketchup sachets, things like that, because as part of the event, they're having reuse services there. So there's so many different applications for how this
could work. And depending on the size of the municipality and what they have available to them, But really, it just comes down to, you know, what are the changes that work best for your community? And where Mind Your Plastic really comes into this is, we know municipalities, you know, they don't tend to have tons of money that they can just throw around and everything. And the way we look at it is we have all this information, we
have all the policies. why recreate the wheel with municipal staff when we already have everything and we can help Cost saving and time saving is beautiful for That's a huge thing. Well, this has been amazing, Natasha. You guys have done such a great job at moving this movement forward, really, of getting rid of plastic and really working with the people
who need to get rid of plastic, you know, at all the different levels. And we really appreciate the work that Mind Your Plastic is doing and that your staff and you are continuing to do and relentlessly working at You know, really changing behaviors is really what it comes down to and working with that resistance that you get with all of that. But I think it's
great that you do it. I love the work that you're doing and I'm looking forward to having you back on to talk about more of the programs and the successes that you've Amazing. Happy to come back anytime. I'm sure there's going to be lots to Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. This is not going away. We definitely know that. That's for sure. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to you about it.
Thank you so much. Well, we won't wait two years for the next interview, that's Thank you, Natasha, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I told you it was a great conversation about plastic. It was a lot of fun to be able to go back and forth on what's happening with the way we're dealing with plastic, not only around the world, but
here in Canada, in my home country, to say, hey, you know what? We have some interesting policies that are banning single-use plastics, are saying that plastics are toxic to people. and that we need to build on that, putting a registry together of plastics and tracing where plastics go throughout its supply chain
and its life. And I think there's a lot of good things that are happening, but it's meeting a lot of resistance that could really derail the movement in trying to reduce the amount of plastics that we use as a country. It just goes to show you that this is not an easy fix. This is something that's going to take some time. There's a lot of complexities to this. People are making a lot of money off of plastics, and they do not want to give that up. So we're going to hear all about that in
the future. And a great example of that is the challenges that the global treaty negotiators have faced in trying to get, and advocates have faced in trying to get a global treaty
agreed upon that actually has teeth to it. Now, there's an extra meeting, a sixth meeting that's going to be planned, because the fifth meeting, what was supposed to be the final meeting in South Korea, just really, the major news that's coming out of there is basically, a lot of countries want voluntary targets, and voluntary targets do not work. That's not the teeth that we're talking about here.
So very difficult to get not only negotiated treaty that has teeth, but also to get something that people will ratify. It's not an easy thing. So we're gonna talk about that in the future, but I'm glad Natasha was here to talk a lot about plastics in general here in Canada. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I'll link to all of her social media so you can get access to Mind Your Plastic. and get to know them a little bit more. I highly recommend that
you do as well as Natasha. And then if you want to get a hold of me and you have any questions or comments on this episode or any other episode here on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, you can do so by going to Instagram, DMing me at howtoprotecttheocean. That's all one word. I know it's
long, but at howtoprotecttheocean spelled out right in front of you. And you can also just come in and say hello or leave a comment on our YouTube channel, Spotify channel, as well as all our other podcasts that we're on, on audio, on Apple, on Overcast, whatever your favorite podcast app is, you can follow, subscribe there. I want to thank you for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have