From Academia to Entrepreneurship: Stephanie Manka's Journey in Wildlife Conservation

Welcome back to the show, everybody. On today's episode, we're going to be talking with Stephanie Manka. She is a fellow podcaster. She has a podcast called The Fancy Scientist, and she's here to talk about her career and how you can get a better career, not only in ocean conservation, but maybe even in wildlife conservation. We're going to talk to Stephanie on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey

everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And on today's episode, we've got a great one for you folks. We've got Stephanie Manka. who is a fellow podcaster from

the Fancy Scientist Podcast. And she is just bringing the heat with career advice, how she built her career, how she went from academia down to, not down, over to her own company, and how she is helping people get careers in wildlife conservation, that's including ocean conservation. So it's a lot of what you can do to better your resume, what you can do to build up your mindset and get in the right mode to build your wildlife conservation

career, and even what to do within wildlife conservation. She goes into all of that in this episode. She also talks about her time on TV. She does a couple of, well, a couple. different shows around with the History Channel really reacting to videos that may have a questionable kind of thing about the science and and conservation and wildlife. So it's a lot of fun-filled packed information here with Stephanie Manka from the Fancy Scientist

podcast and you can go to her website. I'll put the website in the show notes as well as her podcast so you can check it out. But here's the interview with Stephanie. Enjoy and I will talk to you after. Hey Stephanie, welcome to the How Wonderful, this has been a long time coming apparently, because I think we realized that neither of us have been on each other's podcast and

we're like, why hasn't that been? We've had the podcast for quite a long time, each of us, probably some of the longest running podcasts, I think in biology, I would say, but this is gonna be fun. We're gonna be talking about your career and how you ended up where you ended up as a science communicator, having your own podcast, but also having your own business, a full-time business. which is interesting in itself because not a lot of people can do that. And so I'm gonna like start to prod about

how you can do that so I can learn how to do that as well. But also I think for a lot of people who are in the business of wildlife biology or ocean biology or marine biology or what have you, some people need to do that on their own and because it's hard to fit in. to some of the places and move and everything like that, depending on what we have going on in our life. So I'm looking

forward to getting into all that. But Stephanie, if you could just so introduce yourself to the audience, if they don't know you, and Sure. I am Stephanie Manka. I used to be Shuttler. So if you hear about Stephanie Shuttler, that's me too. That was my married name. And I am a wildlife biologist, science communicator, career

mentor. Like you said, I have my own business now, but I started out in this career as a traditional wildlife unreal and that is quite a tale I assume like going from research to you

know where you are now and having your own business and going to science communication. I guess the first question to start off really is did you ever expect No, not at all when okay, so my my father is actually a business owner and as a child I would watch him come to home from work and He always carried the business with him now He was an excellent father like we spent lots of time together and everything but you know There were definitely days where he was late

to dinner because he had to stay with a diamond customer he's he's a jeweler and Okay. And even on the weekends, you know, we'd like, he'd be talking about business and he just always like carried this on him. So I remember thinking like, I don't want a job like that. I want to separate work. So you can already see where this is going. I want to separate work. Yeah. Life. But, um, okay. I'll try to keep this a little bit shorter, but I, um,

okay. I'll go ahead. Okay. I'll tell you guys everything. I basically didn't know what I wanted to do. For really college, I was still confused. And my brother went to NYU for acting school. And I don't know, I just thought that was cool. I was like, oh, I'll be an actor. That sounds like a fun job. But I was also really scared of it. It's really risky. You hear about people never making it. People have to wait tables and they do their plays at

night and everything. So I also at the same time decided to major in biology and that would be my backup career. I could be a medical doctor. I did always like biology, especially the ecology stuff, but I never really knew there was a career that you could have with ecology or wildlife. I knew about Jane Goodall, but I was like, I'm not going to move to Tanzania in the middle of the forest and just live amongst chimpanzees. Even

if I wanted to, I didn't know how you would do that. So I studied biology as a backup career to be a doctor because that seemed like a safe career. I could make lots of money, you know, there's always doctors. And so that was my plan, but I still wanted to be an actress. And, um, then also I realized my brother had a big influence on me. Um, he also recommended I study abroad just like kind of nonchalantly. He's like, Oh yeah, that'd be a cool experience for you. And I

didn't go away to college. So I felt like I was missing out on getting an experience. I lived with my parents and I commuted. So I, I thought that sounded really great. I was like, okay, I'll do that. And I went to the study abroad office and, um, at that time there were brochures because we had the internet, but it wasn't like how it is today. And they looked at all these different brochures. I gathered the ones for theater and those were all in

Europe. And then I found, I think I found two that were related to nature. One, one was in Africa and one I think was in the, in like, I think it was Turks and Caicos, but I don't remember, but it was, it was ocean related. Yep. And I remember spreading all the brochures on my bed and looking at them. And the theater ones, I don't know, it just didn't seem as interesting, like learning about like ancient Greek plays and stuff, like didn't excite me as much. And, um, I

was a traveler growing up, even though my family didn't travel. I had this, I got this student exchange or, and it wasn't exchange, but the student ambassador program to Australia. And I did that. So I went to Australia when I was like by myself, technically, I mean, I went as a part of a group, but I didn't go with my family. So I did that, and the one for Kenya was especially calling my name because I just felt like, when am I ever going to have a chance to go to Africa again?

That seems really scary. Nobody in my family wanted to go to Africa. It's not like, I don't know, I couldn't imagine myself going there. So I was like, I'm just going to do that. And it was a study for wildlife management program. So it took me going all the way to Africa to realize like, oh, I can have a job in wildlife biology. I didn't realize that. So I just did the summer program. It was short a month, but it introduced me into this world. And then when I came back, I went

to a local state school. So it wasn't the best for wildlife, but I connected with the science professors and ecology professors there and I knew you had to go to graduate school and I now had the root of like, okay, how do I become a wildlife biologist? So then I was on my way, and I did a couple of internships. And then I went to graduate school. I got my PhD. I did some postdoc work. I had two postdocs. One was really short after I did my PhD at the same university

that I graduated. And then, to be honest, I really didn't want to move again. I had moved a bunch. And I got married. I'm a big animal lover. So I accidentally rescued like six animals. Accidentally. Yeah. Yeah. Two dogs. Yeah, two dogs and four cats. The last one really was an accident. I really didn't want her, but she was semi-feral and

there was no shelter room, so they would have put her down. My lab, my undergrads that were working for It's tough not to keep to like especially once you become an animal lover and you have multiple pets Then it's like I can take this one in like I know and I can figure it out, you know Especially when you have a house you have no restrictions I have to stay away from some of those Facebook Accounts. Oh, I know shelters because I'm like, I'll take all of them. Yes, like you need help

I know it's pets. I My boyfriend now didn't grow up with any pets and he has one dog. We live separately. He has one dog. I have two dogs and two cats. And I'm slowly trying to convince him that like, this is normal to have like multiple animals, but he's so against it. But I show them those Facebook posts. I'm like, see, this is how you get them. You That's exactly it. And once you have a wildlife degree, then it makes it easier. I know how to handle this. So let

me ask you this. So with the PhD, with the postdocs, was it more of a focus working directly with animals? Or was it more of a conservation-focused, almost policy-driven, policy-focused, or protected So I did my PhD on forest elephants in animal behavior and using non-invasive genetics. So my focus was always like research focused, but I wanted a conservation application. But to be honest, I still didn't know what I wanted to do, and that was what I call my big mistake, is that I

didn't have a clear end goal. I was like, I want to work in conservation, maybe for the government or nonprofit. So I had these animals. I had a house. And I didn't want to move. I wanted to move once and for all. And that was it. So I was applying to permanent jobs. And I was really confident in my job applications and stuff. But I wasn't getting any interviews except for I got one interview for a permanent job. And then I didn't want to apply for postdocs

because those are temporary positions. But I did let myself when it was like really perfect, when there's a postdoc I really liked, and or it wasn't an area I wanted to live forever, I could see myself living. So the temporary kind of, yeah, the temporary, like the temporariness of the job kind of helped if you want to live somewhere and then I'm not gonna No, that I could, I could, Yeah, so I wanted a job where it wasn't like a big enough city that I

could find another job. I would take it through postdoc, but then find a permanent job afterward. But I didn't want to go to South Dakota, where the chances for a job that I was interested in wouldn't come up. Okay. So, um, I knew academic jobs are really competitive, like being a professor, but I had no idea how competitive wildlife jobs were. So this was totally shocking to me that like, I was not getting jobs. And I know that sounds funny, but, but,

but it was, I was like, I have the experience. I have a PhD, like, how am I not qualified? But I just slowly realized that just the market is so saturated out there. So I did get a postdoc. I got a long postdoc in Raleigh, North Carolina. It was five years. So Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill are considered the research triangle. So I was like, OK, over five years, I will find a permanent job in the research triangle. Well, guess what? In five years,

I didn't. And it was kind of a couple of things that, well, mostly I was surprised by how few jobs I was qualified for, because what I learned from my first experience is that I I got interviews for jobs where my experience really lined up with the job. So I thought getting your PhD would be kind of a blanket where you could, you know, I could easily work for the Nature Conservancy, but I had worked in Gabon on

forest elephants. if I was applying for a job in North Carolina working on mammals, like there, there's not a lot of crossover. So, so I didn't like, again, I didn't realize how competitive were. So I think maybe a decade or so ago I would have been fine, but now they're going to hire the person who has been working in North Carolina with that mammal experience over somebody with my experience. So just every interview that I had, I would get like so close, but they would be like,

Oh, there's just somebody with, this much more experience. In one case, it was somebody with 10 years of experience. So it's like, oh my gosh, like, and people were even asking, like, why is this person applying for this job? Like, they're clearly overqualified. But again, the market's just so oversaturated. So, so I love my job in Raleigh. I loved I worked at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences. I love that. And at the same

time, they really encouraged science communications. And I really loved science communication. So I started blogging with a friend, and then I eventually developed my own blog. And a couple of things happened at the same time. I realized that I loved science communication. I loved writing. I loved public speaking. Um, and, um, I was also blogging about the troubles on the job market and I knew I wasn't the only one. So I started

to give advice about this. Um, and, um, just slowly, honestly, I transitioned into doing more blogging and stuff. And then I was listening to. podcasts where people, I eventually found podcasts where people were making money off of doing this. And so I was like, okay, I like, like eventually I started, stopped applying for jobs and, and I, and

I decided to do this full time. Um, so I do a combination of science communication and career mentoring and, um, yeah, some other stuff like writing books and It seems like a lot to take on like a lot of different streams, right? I guess that's what you have your own business. You're able to do that. Um, now like, do you miss the research aspect or finding that job? Like, do you ever go back and look and just be like, Oh man, I kind of wish I, I went into this route

instead of another route. Or did you feel like you exhausted everything That's a good question. Yes and no. I would say mostly I don't miss it because another thing that was going on was I felt like my research was very academic and I loved it, but I really wanted a conservation application. I loved animals growing up. I wanted to save the world. And when I was doing my research, I thought it was cool, but it was just going into academic journals and like, yeah, maybe somebody could

use it for a conservation application. But it was just like an if, you know, like, like, you know, maybe if somebody does this, whereas if I was working on a project that had a direct conservation application, I think I would have enjoyed it more. And also, I could have applied for jobs all over the country and

stuff, but like I said, I really wanted to stay in Raleigh. I was really happy in Raleigh. I do miss when I talk about science communication, I do miss the first-hand experience being like, we discovered this or our group found this out. I miss that part, but I don't miss necessarily writing the papers. I miss being part of a larger lab where we can share ideas and talk about

what's new in science and stuff like that. But in terms of the research, um, itself, I don't miss a ton and I do miss like going, getting those neat experiences as well, I guess. Yeah. So those are the things that I miss. Um, but at the, at the same time, also I was working with kids, my job required to integrate research into classrooms, like real research. So we would have kids set

up camera traps and we would use the images for research. And I was doing a lot of social science research too, and I realized that for people to care about the environment and conservation, it's really important for them to have a connection with nature. So that was also like where things started to pivot for me that like, oh, science communication is really important because I can Um,

you know, create that connection for, for kids. Like, like, like, I mean, I mean, think about like, you know, Steve Irwin, he created that connection for so many people. And so, so I realized like, yeah, for sure. Like, like I, even though I never really watched Steve Irwin. But yeah, so I realized like, oh, I can have a bigger impact by getting people to care and then they carry that

throughout their lifetime. Whereas when I was working on forest elephants, yes, I was working on an endangered species, but The problem was not like we weren't studying them enough. The problem was people were poaching them. So like how do you get the people to stop poaching them, which ultimately boils down to people caring enough about wildlife, whether it's the politicians, the government, the people buying it, or the gap in knowledge between what people are buying versus

what they think they're buying, all of that sort of stuff. It's a Yeah, for sure. For sure. So like when you when you first started your business, like that's not an easy thing to start. Did you have like you started talking about the career thing that was that your first sort of venture into building the business was okay, I'm going to offer career advice to people. Was Um, I think so. I officially opened an LLC in, I believe it was April of 2020. This happened right

around the pandemic too. I decided before the pandemic and it was great timing because everything shut down. Um, so I opened it and then, um, at the same time, yeah. So like I knew they were, there's several ways to make money through, through blogging. One is ads. So at that time I watched tiger King like everybody else. And I wrote blog posts about it and those did really well. Yeah. And I was able to sign up with, um, an advertising

company that pays better than, um, like Google ads. So, It's still not a ton of money, but, but that, so I do have ads Well, and I, I wasn't a lucky situation where I didn't have to worry about money that my, my ex did have a lucrative job. Um, so I did, I didn't have to, make money in the first place, but I did make money with ads. And then yes, I opened up group programs to add some more income. And then the other way for people to make money is affiliate links

too. So I did experiment with some of that, but I never made a ton of money off of that, but I also never really worked at that. It was really, Oh, and I was writing my book, too. So I do get income from my book. But it's mostly my book and the group programs that do the most. Yeah, those are the two most lucrative. And once I started taking students, and then especially when I started seeing the success of my students, that's really

what helped out. Because at first, it was kind of like, oh, here's, like, based on my experience, if I wanted this, like, here's what I would have done differently. Um, but like, I wasn't a hundred percent sure it was where it would work. I'm like, okay, it should work. But then once I started working with my students and stuff, cause because my problem wasn't my, my job applications, I did, I

wrote really good job applications. It was, I didn't have the experience. So really applying that on my students and then seeing it work for them. It's like, wow, this really works and this is awesome. And then. And then it grew from there. But then I did get a divorce, so I did have to provide income for myself. And Yeah, for sure. Like I did the, you know, I did the same thing. I started to make money off of, off of like, you know, the podcasting and

I started doing, I ventured into careers as well. Um, and I had a job at the time. So like, you know, coming, I have a wife who, so, you know, the dual income was nice. And so I didn't have to worry about too much money, but when I didn't have a job and you know, then all of a sudden like this money is going towards paying bills. It's a lot of pressure on yourself, I found for me anyway, to put on yourself once you're like, okay, now I've got to make a

go of this. Before, if I got a student or I didn't get a student, then it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't great. But now I need every student that I can. Did you find that Yeah, that can definitely happen to you and there's kind of like two schools of thought and I listen to a lot of, not a lot of career mentors, but I have a couple of chosen that I listen to. I listen to a lot of their advice and And

yeah, different people use different approaches. There's like, you know, Tony Robbins will say kind of like burn your bridges, like burn, burn your boats. It's based off of that anecdote where it's like a war. I can't remember the story, but basically it's a war general. They went to an island and they like burned the boats to like, cause they were planning to win or something like this. There's no way out. There's no way back. Yeah. So you quit your job, or you make

things happen for you. Or the other one is you keep your day job. And the nice thing about that is that you don't have that financial pressure then. Then it becomes more of a joy, and you don't have to worry about selling it. So yeah, those are the two main schools of thought. But yeah, sometimes you can get caught up in that. But it's really important, I think, to separate yourself from that

as well and decide what works best for you, too. For some people, one method works better than the other to jump all in, whereas the other, like, for them to... And, you know, there's part-time

work, too, that people can get. And, you know, I tell my students, like... I mean, that's the one great thing about being connected to the entrepreneur community is that It attracts a certain type of people and I would say that they're either taught or just are more likely to do this, but to make sacrifices and just willing to do what it takes. I was part of this one group coaching program. It was an expensive program and somebody sold their car to be a part of it. Um, and

yeah, yeah. Cause they, they really wanted this, this business for themselves. And, um, so they were just like willing to do what it took. And, um, and, and actually the, the, the mentor, she was incredible too. She came from Venezuela. She was a single mom. She was going through a divorce. She had tons of legal bills and stuff. So, um, So that's what I tell my students, too. I charge for my programs. It's an investment for them and themselves so that I can give them unbiased advice. And my

career now is to serve them. But I think a lot of times, we have this stigma in our head, like, oh, if we do Uber or something like that, that means we're you know, we haven't made it. And if you're, especially if you're a college graduate, you see your friends move on, like doing, you know, quote unquote, real jobs. And you are in, even if you are working wildlife jobs, for me, my

temp jobs never lined up. So I would go home, I would work for six months and go home for six months and like wait for the next job. And I would live with my parents and, you know, like work at Starbucks and stuff. And my other friends would, would have jobs, you know? And so, but it's just, we just live in a different world. It's just a different system and Well, and it's challenging. It definitely is challenging. The people I see in ocean conservation, they are moving

from place to place to place and they're happy with that. And that's their lifestyle that they chose, but they move from place to place and it'll be from not only cities, but it'll be in like, you know, Towns that are that are far from cities, you know like country areas that there's not a lot around and they'll move to another place because that job was only For four to six months and then they'll go to another place and they'll go

to another place And it's it's a hard life to lead where you can't put roots down You can't you know buy a home, you know You're you're going from apartment to apartment or you're renting a home or Airbnb or whatever that that might be and it's it's a very challenging place to be in life, unless that's what you choose to do. But if you wanted to start a family, or if you wanted to have any kind of routine, it's very difficult

to continue to move like that. So it's very challenging. And there are jobs that are full-time, permanent, like a lot of government jobs and things like that. But a lot of the ones that people go for and that are available are these six months jobs, and they're usually based on funding and so like what is

that the biggest challenge you find for some of your students? I just kind of want to talk a little bit about that if that's okay like with the career stuff like what are the biggest challenges that you find that that students have? that they can't get jobs. That's the biggest one. So I do think, and oceans might be different. In my field, I do think it's normal for people to take several jobs before

they land their permanent job. I was actually, for my latest training, I read this paper about, it's called It Pays to get paid in wildlife work. It was all about how the more paid jobs you have, the more likely you're going to end up with a permanent job. It was like seven to nine jobs predict success. I think that's a lot though. My students have not had seven to nine jobs. They've gotten permanent jobs with maybe like three to five or something

around that range. That makes sense. I think that's pretty normal. And, um, and even like my one friend in graduate school, she got her master's and she couldn't get a job afterwards. She worked at Starbucks for a while. So it's, it's, I think like the biggest message I want to tell people out there who are struggling is it's, it's competitive. It is so saturated. It's not

about you. And then talking to employers too, employers are like, it's so hard to choose people because sometimes it's like, this person would be great, but so would this person. So if you're not getting a job, I don't want to say you have to try harder, but you have to think about it more strategically. So it's about building up The, so I say, I

mean, I say it takes clarity, uh, strategy and application. So it's about first figuring out what you want to do, ultimately want to do, then building up your experience, especially towards that thing. So in the beginning, that might be hard because you have no experience. So you might need to get broader experience, but as you progress, you want to get more and more closer to that. And then, um, and then also network network is part of the strategy. Those

are the big ones. And of course your education. And then job application. I actually think, so most people, most of my students struggle with, they don't get interviews. They apply for jobs and they don't get interviews. And what I have found is, is most people don't write strong job applications. I think that they write just very basic, regular job applications. And a lot of the information out there about job applications is

not for wildlife jobs. So people, look at that stuff for like businesses or, you know, like just like the general, like LinkedIn stuff where you got to do like bullet points of like a couple of words. Like, no, that doesn't work for our field. So, um, for a lot of my students, once they improve their job applications I find the same thing. I find, I find the biggest thing. I find that actually the biggest thing, the first step for, for us is like clarity.

Like, yeah, you can't just go and I want to protect the ocean, or I want to go into conservation, or I want to go into sharks, like you have to have clarity and then identifying, you know, the job that you want. I'm very, very much the same way. And in your thought process is like, figure out what you want to do, and then figure out how to get to that point and what you need. what kind of experience you need. That'll help you start to target the jobs that you want. And then the application is

the biggest thing. It's unreal to see some of the applications. It's not the people's fault. It's not the fault of students or early career scientists. It's just they haven't been taught or they've been taught from somebody who's done business resumes before. And like you said, they're very different. When I did government jobs and I applied to government jobs, my cover letter If I look at it, sometimes they were like eight to nine pages long because

you had to answer. Yeah, for the federal government, for the federal Canadian government, you had to answer all these questions. And if you actually printed it out, it was like nine pages long, eight to nine pages long with all that. Because then you had to hit certain things that they wanted to hear and they wouldn't even look at it if it didn't. But it's interesting because it

took me a while to find the jobs that I wanted. But when I, when somebody actually sat down and I used to get frustrated, I stopped, I stopped applying to government jobs. I got so frustrated with it. I was like, they don't even, they never answer me back. So what's the point? And then some, I was actually working a contract in a government building for the government that I wanted, like for the department that I wanted to work for, uh, or

one that was like adjacent. And, uh, somebody sat me down. It's like, Oh, if you want to do this, there's a certain way, like you have to know the specific way.

Why don't they teach us and they do but they teach it in-house. They don't teach it outside Yeah, so this is where like people like yourself come in where it's like you have to know where to apply how to apply and and how to like take the Skills and experience that you have and put it on paper in a way that people are like this is I want to see this kind exactly. Yeah, so I think that's that's that's really important Yeah, and I think people don't know how to,

for lack of a better word, brag about themselves. They're very humble. They'll say, oh, educated guests. And it's like, well, can you provide some more details about that? Or data analysis? They just don't know how to speak. Yeah, job applications talk. And then I also, yeah. And then to go off of that, I don't feel like they know the

value that they have too. It's like, like, I remember working with this one, um, student, she had like four bullet points on her list and she lived in Borneo for like a year and a half studying orangutans. And I was like, there's no way you did just four things. Like you were in the field, like living at a field station at the very least, you know, you were like, like doing like field camp type stuff, where you're ordering supplies, doing logistics, with

a million mosquitoes around you or something. You know what I mean? There's more complicated things to this than you're not painting the picture What is funny, we laugh at that too, but it's so true. You don't realize how many important things that people look for. You can do fieldwork. Everybody can do fieldwork, but how well do you do fieldwork? How well do you prepare for fieldwork? how well do you make sure that like the data is intact and like you've got the right field

sheets and if not field sheets it's covered. I'm from a water background so everything has to be covered or if it's digital it's got to make sure it doesn't it's waterproof and all that kind of stuff right so it's there's a lot that goes in and and that it's it's it's You have to learn how to do it. A lot of people just don't know. And some people get a little resistant when they're like, I should know this or my university should

have taught me. Do you ever get students that are looking for your help but may not want to join a group or may not want to pay for that kind of service because they feel like they should do it? And how do Um, so, I mean, I, I give away a lot of, of free stuff. I, you know, like I have my podcast, I have free trains. I just did a, I just did a free training that used to be a webinar plus a bonus webinar. And I turned it into three free chains. That's like three,

it probably ends up being like more than three hours long. Um, so a couple, a couple of things, um, it's. It's impossible for some stuff to train without them enrolling in something. I do have resume revamp, which they could take. And they could learn and totally redo their resume by themselves. Or even I have a job application academy. But actually, that part does include job application reviews. So you review them. Yes, yes. So some students might be able to take themselves to the next level

on their own, and they don't need any review. But I would say most need the personal review and need how to break down the job posting. Because it's not just about you. It's really about dissecting the job posting. And I've become very good at that, like interpreting, oh, this is what they want. This is what they think is most important, and then matching your stuff to that stuff. But I think the biggest thing is that there's a shift that happens when you invest in yourself. You take it

much more seriously. So it actually, honestly, is a benefit to them because they value it so much more. And like going back to that coaching program I was a part of, it was expensive. And I made sure I showed up every single week because I did not want to waste my money. Um, so I was there and, and she changed the program around too. So, um, so towards the end, it was just me and one other person who were in the program. And I would be at the meetings every single week and she'd be like,

OK, what do you like just to troubleshoot problems? She's like, what are your problems this week? And I'm like, I don't really have any problems. I'm just here to like absorb more information and get inspired. And then like I would talk to her and I realized I did have more problems that we could talk about. So so you show up differently. And yeah, you take it more seriously. You put in the work. I've done scholarships for my program. And some people do take

it really seriously. Like I've had Chitra. I gave her a scholarship in Nepal. And she is actually now in Illinois. It's amazing. Her dream was to get a master's in the United States. And she did it. She took my program. We worked on her cover letters and everything. But she also put in the work ahead of time, too. I do have people fill out applications. But she started in Nepal attending a free – she loved turtles. She attended a free, I think, turtle webinar or her conservation talk. And

afterwards she contacted the scientist and she's like, how can I help? Like I want to get involved. So she had that drive. Like she wasn't letting anything about her situation hold her back. Um, and yeah, she didn't have the money being, being, um, with her circumstances, but she filled out a good job or a good application for the scholarship and she showed up to the calls and she took my advice. Whereas other people, before I did the application and stuff, I would gift it to people and

do scholarships. And some people would never show up at all. And I had to be like, hey, what's going on? But they would tell me they really wanted it and stuff. So there is a certain click or a change that happens when Yeah, I can imagine. I think that would, yeah, I agree. I've done a couple of coaching programs before and every time, like if I did a free one, I wouldn't be as invested. If I had to pay, you're like, I just put down a boatload of money.

I need to actually make sure I get the most out of this as possible so that I can get back. In fact, sometimes I look at it and I'm like, how much money, how much more money can I make if I'm putting you know, sometimes it's a hundred dollars, sometimes it's $500, sometimes it's a thousand dollars. And you're like, how much money am I going to make off of this? Like that's, that's how I look at it and say, okay, Yeah. Yeah. I just joined a program for,

for fitness or for weight loss. And I, I, since I've been moved to the Chicago area, I slowly gained like 12 pounds. And That's what it is. That's the problem. I I blame my boyfriend. I'm like, I'm too happy being with you. So I gained this weight and I've been trying, like really consciously trying to lose it. Like, you know, and I know how to lose weight. I've done it before. I've, what's always worked for me is personal trainers. So, you know, but like I've calorie counted by myself and all

this stuff, but when I, you know, it hasn't been working. So I'm like, okay, I'm fed up of figuring this out myself. So I joined a program. And then it's also nice because it's kind of like the responsibility is taken off of you. I still put in the work, but it's like, OK, you tell me what to do. And if it doesn't work, it's your fault. So they tell me what to do. But because I invested money and then also I have someone to report to, Like,

you know, like if accountability, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so I found out I was, yeah, I was, I was counting calories, but I was using heaping scoops. Oh my gosh. Well, now I have to weigh stuff and weigh stuff. It's like, you can't cheat with that. But, um, but yeah, it works. Like I've, I've, I've lost the 12 pounds. I can't, like, I can't believe it. It's been amazing. And so, I remember the first few days, I'm like, crap, I can't lie to myself because

they're going to be like, what's going on, Stephanie? How come you're not losing weight? I can't be like, oh, your program's not working because I'm the one who's not doing it. So yeah, it's that accountability. And then also, yeah, taking the weight off of your shoulders. So you don't have to do it alone anymore. In my group mentoring program, you get to talk to me. Right now, it's small enough that I'm able to answer every question. So even though it's

group mentoring, we do training. So there's recordings that people watch. And then we have group mentoring for whatever questions people have or if they want me to review things. But yeah, it's small enough that I'm able to get to every question. I get to know the people. And yeah, it's been great. I've loved working with them. And then also just like, I don't know how it's been for you, but I've I felt like it's very

common. I mean, there's definitely exceptions to the rule, but it's very common in the science world for people to be negative and hard on you. And honestly, sometimes abusive. I've never really been abused, but I have no situations where people have been like taken advantage of, like you're supposed to work 20 hour days. And just like in academia, you know, like, you just never feel good enough and smart enough and

stuff like that. So I really want to do this to give back because I was never the smartest. I was never the best at science, but I was really dedicated and passionate. And that's how I got through my PhD. You don't need to be the smartest at all. It's Yeah, I had a high school teacher who told me that I did not belong in science and he was a physics teacher And I then screw you I am good for you. Yeah, that's kind of been my driving factor

like in University Yeah, every time there was a difficult part. I was Yeah. And some people probably carry that with them the whole life and let them like not be in science. So I like to be that, that positive force and support for people that, that, I mean, I truly believe anyone can do it as, as long as, um, as long as they want it in there. Again, you have to be willing to put in the work. You can't just like. sign up for my program and you'll get a

job. You have to put in the work. But, um, if you're, and if you're stubborn enough to that's like, like there are competitive jobs. If you like, I mean, ocean jobs, like if you want to be a Marine biologist, that's a super competitive job. Um, if you want to work with whales and dolphins and stuff, but I think if you're stubborn enough and you work at it hard along long enough with the right strategy and doing, doing things with intention, building your network, it can happen for you or

Yeah, absolutely. So how often do you run these groups? Is it done all throughout the year? Is it like an ongoing group? Or is it like, or do you do it? you open it up for like a small group and then you Good question. I've changed it a lot. I have decided on like, I recently decided on one strategy. So I have a couple of different levels. My favorite and the best level is a successful wildlife professional. That is my group mentoring program. Um, so it's, it

used to be a year long. Now it's, it's four months worth of content. Um, you get to, you get to keep it forever though. So you can pace it however you want, but it's technically you watch like an hour long training per week and do exercises. and then every other week we have group mentoring. But I'm thinking about changing that to weekly, or you can ask whatever you want. I did have open

enrollment before, then I switched to cohorts. Now, I'm doing both, where people have to sign up for the training to get in, and then it's open for a short period of time, and then I run the trainings throughout the year. So right now, I'm doing the trainings every six weeks, Nice. But it depends on how full the group gets, I think, how often I'll do the trainings. But I would say at least three times a year I would have the trainings. And then

I have the Job Application Academy. So this is for people who who know what they want to do. Like they don't, they have the clarity, they have the experience, but they're, they're just like struggling on the job applications. And I teach them, it's all the same stuff from the successful wildlife professional, but just the job application stuff. And then we do reviews once a month, just on job applications. Um, and then I have, um, like masterclasses where it's,

Okay, interesting. That's really interesting. So that's one side. We just got into the one side of your business. Yeah. And that looks really great. And we'll put some links in so people can check out some more information on those if they're interested. Great. Also, you do like a science communication. So this is not the only thing you do. You do a little bit of science communication. Now, I know you and I have discussed your TV escapades quite a bit, you know,

going on TV and doing some stuff for the History Channel. How I started out on TV first through somebody I knew, my boss at the museum. I think he got on a TV show from somebody he knew too as well, Rob Nelson. You should interview Rob. He's not exclusive to oceans by any means, but I think he's done some ocean work. was a scientist and then he transitioned to communicator, but he does like film. That's his big thing. Now he's really successful on YouTube now. He changed a little bit.

He still does science communication, but he changed his name to Stone Age Man and kind of does some like. I like that name. Yeah, you like him. But he makes a lot of videos and stuff anyway. So he got us

on the science channels. Show what on earth and so so then I just did that show for several years and then independently I got invited to do a show on the history channel called the proof is out there and that I got through my youtube channel because I was just creating content and at the time I was I did a lot of camera trap work and people, um, I would, you know, visit a lot of places too, giving talks and people would always tell

me that they saw a mountain lion or a black panther. And in North Carolina, we, we used to have mountain lions, but now they're extinct there. Um, and there are no black panthers in the United States. So I did a video about that and slowly but surely over time that blew up and

that's probably my most successful video. Um, and the people from the history channel, just somebody found my video and they were like, I really like how you explain things, how you, um, you know, you didn't like, I, I didn't, um, although a lot of the commenters probably disagree, I didn't like immediately poo poo them and be like, no, this doesn't, they don't exist. Like I went through like, well, like with the evidence that like, why, why we,

we haven't found any evidence of them. So, so now I'm on this TV show, um, where. where I evaluate stuff. So a lot of times it's like Bigfoot videos or just like weird videos, but there's also a lot of like just weird things happening in nature too that are not well explained or just some animals doing weird things. So I comment on those things. And then I've just been doing a couple of extra shows here and there, mostly through that connection, because people from

the history, that's on the History Channel. So people got to know me and and yeah, so they call me in to do some some extra shows here and there. I love it. And like, how often do you spend on that? Oh, good question. It usually happens maybe like three or four times a year, and I

kind of crunch before the assignment. I hope they're not listening. I don't I mean I think part of part of the reason why I do that is because so the stories and stuff will be really fresh in my head and the information will be fresh in my head because they give you you know they give you the videos and stuff to review on and you talk it over with them and you talk about like the different angles that that will take so for instance if it's a bigfoot video

they would you know, they'll be like, okay, like what other animals live in the area? Could it be? And like, why couldn't it be that? So, so sometimes, you know, there's things I might have to research or look up, like, like, okay, like, there's this one video with a snake. I still don't know how it happened. But it got like this algae growing on it. So it looked like a hair, it looked like a hairy green snake, like, kind

of like a muppet. And it was a real snake, so talking about how I know it's a snake, and then some things I might have to look up, like how does algae grow on a snake, or how would things happen? But yeah, so I just study the week and prepare the week before, usually a couple of hours every day, and then it's a full day of filming. That's amazing. And like when you're done, like, I mean, when you do a full day of filming like that, you get pretty tired

after a while. You're talking all day. You're going through takes and multiple takes and multiple takes. You must be exhausted. So it's probably good that it's only like three or four times a year where you're just like, all right, that's good. I got it out of Yeah. What have you learned the most from doing TV work with science communication, like traditional TV That's a good question. Maybe that people love Bigfoot. That's

my fake funny answer. I think my fake funny answer is that people take cryptids really seriously. I had no idea. I didn't even know cryptid was a word. It's like societies. There's conferences. They take it very, very seriously. Oh, this is hard. Maybe, I mean, obviously like sensational stuff is, is interesting. Like, like what, I mean, I think people are always interested in like the unknown and like

what's left to be discovered and the intriguing. And, um, I mean, I think so many people probably like Bigfoot and stories like that too, is because they know somebody who has had an experience. That's another thing is like making it relatable. Um, But I mean sometimes I guess like also like what people don't know and what people find interesting and this

kind of goes back to being a scientist. Like when I first became a scientist or even into my science career, I felt like I was a terrible scientist because in school, I was so well at studying. I would just memorize for a test. And I liked it too. I wasn't just cramming for the test. But I was good at studying. And then science is all about figuring out answers to questions that people don't know. So I had to come up with questions. And I just assumed so much stuff was known because because

that's what I was taught in school. Here's all the stuff we know. I think just that there's so much stuff out there that we don't know still. They had me do this one video about these worms forming piles. And like, and it was like after a storm and like, they were like in the middle of the road and they were talking about like, why would they be in the middle? And it's like, I don't know. I just assumed like people would

know the answer to this, but like people don't. I looked it up and like, there's these different speculations and, and then also that people would find that interesting too. Like, Oh, I guess people are interested in like how the world works and, and strange phenomenon and stuff like that. And you don't have to, it doesn't have to be

fake. Like, I'm sorry, Bigfoot's not real guys, but. There's I think one of the best things that I've ever learned was talk to people who are not involved in science, and maybe not conspiracy theorists like people, but also take somebody on a hike, or take somebody into a river area, or a lake area, or an ocean area for me, or even anywhere, and then listen to the questions that they have. Sometimes they're the simplest questions, but they are interesting. You'll be like, oh, actually, that

was a really good question. I think oftentimes as biologists, we often overthink and we're like, what can we give that's super exciting and that'll go over the top, like for TV or something like that. I did a TV show as well and it was about evolution and some of the little things, like just the function, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Okay, like people

really want to know about that. Okay, I can do that And and I think when you hear people or even kids ask questions because then you're just like yes Okay, these are this is like like the top of the curiosity chain is when you get to talk to kids Yeah, as you know when you worked with kids and continue and you're like, okay now these are questions that people really want to know it's almost like You know, you have that TV show, Smarter Than a Fifth Grader. It's almost like,

can you ask a question like a fifth grader? Because that would be something I think that would be really interesting to hear. Like, can you answer a question from a fifth grader or something like that? Because they always have great questions, I find, around kids. But that's interesting. And now so growing the business, like in terms of science communication, the TV is one aspect. Do you ever get to work with organizations on their science communication? Have

they ever reached out? Because you do podcasting, you do videos, you do TV. Do you ever provide advice for some like organizations or other science communicators themselves? Um, I have like during my postdoc, I would be part of like panels and things like that. But since then, not really. I've just I've just been more focused on my own business. And honestly, I've been focusing on getting the

career mentoring thing. So so that might be part of the reason why is I've been really focusing on getting the career mentoring because I've had to learn so much with I mean, and not only creating the programs, but also You know, like wondering what structure of the programs works well, obviously creating the content and then selling. Like I never thought I would be selling. So, and science communication is actually kind of selling too. It's the same principle.

So I've had to learn so much with that stuff. And now I finally feel like I'm kind of. not finished with it, but at a good place where I can take a back seat. And then next year, I really want to focus on science communication again. And also, I did do this kids program, and I want to revisit that and do that again, but change it. I started out initially more like a teaching kids about the process of science and stuff. And then Was it last year? Yeah, last year I

worked with a coach. And he helped me transform it into kind of like a parenting course. Because he felt that nature and science wouldn't sell on its own. He felt like parents aren't really looking to get their kids involved in science. That's not a strong need. But

parents fear losing connection with their kids. So we framed it as like, to create the best connection and long lasting connection with your child, like work with them outside on these collaborative projects in nature, which I totally agree with and, and, and believe in, but I felt like it kind of took a parenting twist and I want to, I want to put it back more to be just about like getting kids outside in nature and getting them connected and getting

them curious. So less of a focus on parenting. So I want to be doing more of that again next year and yeah,

figuring out how I want to run that and. So yeah, if your audience members have ideas for like what kinds of things they'd want to see, but I don't know, I'm thinking about some sort of membership where like I provide an activity for them to do outside and we have like a community where they can share and contribute to community science Yeah, get him like be a part of something bigger maybe or part of a project like an ongoing project that multiple people can contribute

to. I like that. I like that idea. That's kind of cool. I think the more you can do with with young children, the better, right? So they can get that hands on experience, especially with parents and stuff. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Now, we're kind of coming to the end here. You know, you and I can talk forever. We do that all the time. And we didn't even get into the podcast. So

Fancy Scientist is the podcast that you have. Now, it's on YouTube as well, but it's on any favorite podcast app that people can get, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And what can people get from the So it all centers around the idea of really wildlife. So that's what I've always felt like I've been about, like my connection to animals and connection to nature. So I talk about my experiences as a researcher. I

talk about careers. I mean, that's something I've been talking about a lot, careers. I interview guests. So I interview guests with all different types of careers, all different types of backgrounds, basically, I mean, related to our field. So I mean, some people like I've talked to people who have worked in the climate change sector of corporations, or anything related to to lifestyle as well, that relates even indirectly to wildlife. So I'm also like super interested in health and Just

even being like a more conscious consumer and stuff like that. Or diet as well, like how your diet impacts wildlife. So there's a huge variety of things. I'm also really big on mindset as well. So sometimes I have episodes about mindset because as I mentioned before, this career, um, and the people can have be kind of negative. And then also just the nature of what we're doing, what we're dealing with, with loss, it

can get depressing. So, um, and then I just like, I don't know, I'm just really interested in like productivity and efficiency and things like that. So just like making yourself a better, um, biologist or, or like whatever career trajectory you're, you're going towards. So it's a mishmash of things, but it centers around wildlife and This is what I love about podcasting is everybody can make, the host makes it

what it is. And it's based on your interests and it kind of feeds it and what you think is needed within sort of the field. And I think that's really important. And I Well, that's the thing. It's the same with mine. It's whatever I want to talk about,

but we get to talk about it. That's the fun part, right? Now, one question, like, what would you, like, as from the experience that you have from building a business and being sort of in the wildlife career itself, what advice would you give, like, my listeners here if, you know, not only are they listening to start a career, but maybe talking about doing a little bit of a job, like, or working as, like, building their own business. Like a side hustle? Yeah. What would the recommendation be

or the best thing you can give? If you had to give one piece of advice, what First, let me say that even before I became an entrepreneur, when I was a scientist, I was like, oh my gosh, my job is so much like being a business owner, like my dad's. Because when you're a scientist, especially like, I was never a principal investigator, but being a postdoc, it was, it kind of felt like that because I was, you know, at times like writing my own grants and

trying to fund my own projects. But I got to see, you know, the people I was working with and they were the principal investigators. And Their science is kind of like a business. They have to fund their projects, hire employees, which are either graduate students or field assistants, to run those projects. And then the output, the profit, is the publication. So it's just a different element, but the same type of system. And that's what my dad would do. He'd get customers to

make money. So it was very similar. And also, you were probably laughing when I was talking about my dad, because I never went home and felt like I was off. I could always be like, Like, I mean, at the time I was applying for jobs, but I could always be, you know, writing more papers, doing more data analysis, like coming up with this new idea, setting up this

project, like there was always so many things to do. But I think, I think the biggest, I'm going to give two parts, I'm going to cheat and give two answers, but the biggest part I think is first to know that that it is really possible for you in this day and age. It is so cool what people sell online. So I think my biggest piece of advice is to follow people who are doing what you want. Follow digital entrepreneurs who

are doing this type of stuff. And there's so many free podcasts out there, so many free resources to help you. One of the people I follow is James Wedmore. He's the biggest one I follow. Um, and that there's so much opportunity out there. Like he had somebody on his podcast who, uh, who taught people how to hike and, and he was like joking. He's like, okay, like, how are you making money of this? You're

just telling people like put one foot in front of the other. And, you know, I mean, he was being a jerk, but, um, I mean, I'm purpose to be silly, but, um, but this woman, you know, she started a business teaching people how to hike. People wanted to do backpack. hiking. They didn't know how to do it. So she made a course. Here's how you do it. And here's how to be safe. Here are the things you need to think about. And she made money doing it. So just

start out. And James will teach you way better than I will, but he has so many free resources. just start out thinking about what are you, you don't even have to be a full-blown expert, but what do you know more about than somebody else that you could start teaching them. And it's as simple as, I started mine with a posting, I'm thinking about starting a course teaching you how to get a career in wildlife. If you're interested, drop an emoji and I'll send you the link

with more information. And it's as simple as that. And if you don't want to charge people in the beginning, if you just want to like help people to get some ideas, you can do that. You can charge them. You don't have to charge them a lot. You can charge them 50 bucks or something. And just get that experience of working with people. And you just you just don't know, again, like what you can sell. Like people people

are just looking for help. And and yeah, you can probably go online and learn how to hike, but you have to sort through all the noise and everything when it's like so much nicer to just sign up for a program and watch trainings and know that you know how to do it. And then if you have like a group mentoring

program, you can ask this person questions. So, yeah. So, yeah, if you're if you love birds, if you love fish, if you love Plants like can you teach a plant identification course or a bird like a like bird people are crazy in a good way Yeah, can you teach an audio course like here's how to learn bird songs like yeah Like I'll teach you the top ten bird songs. And yeah again,

they can do it online. But if you can Teach them in a way that makes it faster and easier for them Then you have some people even like an audio catalog like you bring Yeah, it's a list or something like that and hear the birds it'd be yeah, that's a it's a really good idea Well, this has been great, Stephanie. This has been awesome. You know, you and I, we're good friends and we've become great friends over like talking

about this, talking about podcasting. So I'm gonna put links to your website, to the podcast and everything so people can get access to the YouTube channel. So people can get more access to you and connect with you. And just, I wanna thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, it's been so much fun to have you on. We'll definitely have you back on sooner than later to talk more about science communication and everything, but really appreciate you coming on and thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you, Stephanie, for joining us here on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to have you on. You know, what's funny is before we did the interview, I was like, hey, when was the last time you were on? She was like, I don't think I've ever been on. And I was like, yes, right. And she goes, when was the last time you were on my podcast? I think I did it, but she's like, no, I don't think you did. And we haven't gone on each other's podcast

and been able to speak about what we do, but we are doing that now. So you can check out the fancy scientists podcast with me on it soon. We're still, we're still about to record that next week, but it's going to be a lot of fun and you should check that podcast out. But also just like what information, great information that she led, like let us have here on this episode, like, It was great. It's been a while since we've talked podcasting and

not only podcasting, but conservation careers. And a lot of times it's me talking about it. It's great to see somebody else having a very similar position, but also a little bit different in their approach. And I really like the approach she takes. I think it's really great. So if you want to take one of her courses, please feel free to do so. You can go over to her website, which the link is in the show notes below. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, it's in the description. And you

can just click on that and go over there and find out more about Stephanie. But that's it for today's episode. I want to thank you all for joining me today with Stephanie. I want to thank Stephanie for joining us and taking time out of her busy time building her business and being able to share those great knowledge bombs with us today. So thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

I'm your host Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy