¶ Podcast Introduction and Celeste's Background
Hello and welcome back. It's great to have you. We are continuing our celebration of 10 years of how to be awesome at your job. With the second year highlighted episode, that is number two hundred twenty-one, Becoming a Great Conversationalist with Celeste Headley. I think you're gonna love it.
Welcome to the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast, the show where brilliant professionals Flourish at work. Enjoy more flooding.
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Celeste Headley is a public broadcast radio show host and author of Herd Mentality and We Need to Talk. Celeste Headley is the host of On Second Thought at Georgia Public Broadcasting in Atlanta and has been a host and correspondent for NPR and DRI since 2006. Celeste, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast.
My pleasure.
Well, you've got a pretty cool background. I'd love to hear a little bit of the inside scoop when it comes to presidential election coverage for PBS world.
Well, that was when um PBS World was dipping its toe. You know, PBS World focuses a lot on documentaries coming, not surprisingly, from all around the the world. Um but one of the things they've discovered that is American politics is so much of interest to in international audience that they wanted to actually, yeah, have a reporter right there on the ground.
So that was sort of their um their toe in the water and it worked out great. I mean it's a it's a busy schedule as you can probably imagine. Um and you're at a lot of conferences and and conventions and All those kind of things. But it's exciting. And it was an exciting election. Um, and especially when you're focusing your coverage on
The kinds of politics that are gonna interest an international audience, to a certain extent it was nice because it allowed me to sort of stay out of that whole rat race mentality and onto more substantive issues. So that was really nice.
That is cool. And so any noteworthy brushes with power brokers that come to mind or fun anecdotes from there?
I think in terms of funny stuff, the main thing is just the the line anytime they offer free food. That suddenly, you know, it's it. I remember at one point when I was at the Republican convention and I was walking through the convention hall and it's gigantic. And I'm watching this line and just walking along it and walking along it. And I was like, God, I don't think this thing ever ends. And I get to the front and it was a table of cupcakes. And I was like, really? So yeah.
That is funny. That is funny. I guess it's like, you know, free food works in college and it just never stops working.
Exactly. I guess it doesn't matter how much you make or what business you're in. In the end, cupcakes are gonna do well for you.
That's great. Well it seems like we already got our featured quote for social media from this chat in the first couple of minutes. That's pretty good.
Yeah. Well, good. I'm glad I'm quotable.
¶ Core Principles of Good Conversation
Well, you know, you are quotable and shareable. So your TED talk, Ten Ways to Have a Better Conversation, is racked up well over ten or eleven million views. That's extraordinary. It's exceptional. Do you have any thoughts for, you know, what makes that kind of topic, that area so hot, so engaging and so shareable and popular?
Honestly, uh your guess is as good as mine. I did not expect it to be popular. Um, honestly. I I thought it was a relatively boring subject that I was really excited about, but nobody else would be. And if I'd known eleven million people were gonna watch it, I probably would have gotten my hair cut and put out something other than an old blazer. But I I will say I will say um that it gives me uh hope that that many people have watched it. And the reason I say that is because to me that's a sign
that um people are aware that something's going wrong. And we're not just talking about Americans. I mean, it's from all over the world. It's been translated into dozens of languages. So I I think there's just a growing sense, even if people can't articulate it, that something is missing um and that we need to get it back.
Understood. Well yeah, and I'm right with you there. I feel it. I believe it. And so you lay out ten ways, which will of course link to it in the show notes. But if I could ask you to prioritize just a little bit, you know, from the not multitasking to don't pontificate to using open data questions, et cetera, you know, what do you think might be the one or two or three that you believe have a really Extra bang for your buck in terms of being effective for professionals in the workplace.
I mean the the number one is listening. Um that's probably no surprise. The the difficulty with that one is it's also probably the hardest. uh because we are so far away from the type of people that really listen anymore. Um we tend what what we do know is that we tend to overestimate both our conversational skills and how well we listen. Oh. Yeah. But we we don't. We're not great listeners. Um, so that one requires like a whole change in habits and and
Uh you know, it that's gonna take a little time before you truly become a good listener, but it's the most important one. One of the easiest is is the very first one, which is the one which is be present. Um and In that it means a couple things. Don't multitask i is the first one. Um, but multitasking isn't just, you know, uh being on a conference call while you're trying to answer e answer emails. Sometimes we multitask in our brains, right? Um
Someone's talking to us and all we're thinking about is what time we have to get home in order to get dinner on the table and be able to watch Game of Thrones or whatever it may be. So multitasking, don't multitask. What I'm really saying there is focus. focus in on the present moment and when your mind does get distracted, because it will
That's okay.
Let those thoughts go in your head and out of your head. That's part of the go with the flow thing. And then focus back in. You know, each one of these things. sort of um supports the other, if you know what I mean. Um, in order to be present and not multitask, you have to go with the flow, if you know what I mean. And order and by doing both of those things, what you're really doing is improving your listening.
So we're just talking about sort of once you get through all ten, if you if you do, um, you'll really be a great conversationalist.
All right, that's great. So I'd love to dig into a little bit more detail here when it comes to don't multitask and go with the flow. So even in your brain, when other things pop in, you know, what's sort of your recommended approach for, hmm, I'm talking to someone, you know, maybe they're just not that interesting or or maybe, you know, there's something pressing happening, you know, outside in life.
that just has my attention. So, you know, what are your pro tips for bringing about that focus in a great way?
So and that kind of conversation happens all the time at work, right? Yeah. Um, and I would suggest if you really are not able to focus, if there really is something pulling you away, I'd suggest you just say that. Uh um, just say, Hey, listen, there's something going on. I'm totally distracted by it. I apologize for that. I wanna hear what you have to say. So let's put a pin in this and come back to it later.
Um and I do that all the time, unless it's absolutely urgent. Um and urgent conversations usually aren't usually are not nuanced. And by that I mean when it's urgent, it's usually an exchange of information.
Okay?
So nuanced conversations are the ones that you really need to take time with. Um exchanges of information, get the get the information out or receive the information and then go back to whatever it was you were doing. If you're just your mind is wandering Because they're boring you. That's a totally different animal altogether. Usually what that means is that you're more interested in what's going on in your head than what it is that they're saying. And you can fix that.
That's a sort of a reflection of what uh scientists call conversational narcissism. Um, and we all do it. So uh first of all, don't be distressed by that. It's something all of us do. But the second thing is one of the only ways that we know of to fix that is through mindfulness training. And that's by just basically training your mind to learn how to let Um, when uh thoughts come into your head.
you should be able to say, Oh, there's a thought and then you just let it pass right back out and then return your focus to what the other person was saying. And if they really are boring you, that's where the one tip where it talks about questions comes in. because good questions can lead that person into a more engaging and interesting conversation. You just gotta ask them some questions. You know, this is the thing I tell people all the time.
Everyone has really interesting stuff to tell you. Right? I mean, we've heard interviews even with famous people that were boring, um, whereas somebody else got really great material out of them, right? Right. So the reason for that is because someone asked them really good questions and someone didn't.
And and so if you want to get interesting stuff out of somebody, ask good questions. So sh show some interest in what they're doing and find that thing that they really know better than anyone else. And then you're gonna have an interesting conversation.
Okay, excellent. So I'm hearing when it comes to the mental multitasking, it's just a matter of doing some of that training when it comes to the mindfulness stuff. And so you're saying it's just as simple as engaging in any number of meditation type things where you focus on breath or you notice, oh, there's a thought and you let it go. I'm thinking, do you write down these thoughts or you just allow them to go?
I don't usually um if I'm alone I can if they're important. Um but I do find that the thoughts come back. You know, they rise to the surface, um, again. And and then I c if they're important I can I can get back to them. But you know, by following your little rabbit down your rabbit hole, you're getting further and further away from the conversation. The other person can't follow you there.
So you just gotta kind of, as you say, whatever your mindfulness training is, and that usually involves some kind of meditation, um, which again, don't be afraid of meditation. I I'm not entirely sure why people um always connect meditation with spirituality. Um, but meditation is more like yoga. It's a practice. And at this point it's the only way that we know to train the brain to be mindful.
Okay. That's potent. Alright, so does that cover sort of the multitasking phase? Is there more to be said about listening well?
¶ The Science and Training of Listening
There is so much to be said about listening well. Um, there is so much incredible work going on, but I will say this that, you know, human beings. are not really born knowing how to listen. We come into the world ready to scream. And that pretty much continues. We are much better at talking and talking about ourselves.
than we are at listening to other people. And and in a way that should be a comfort to you because it means all of us struggle with it. The other thing that's interesting and it comes out of this research in Australia and New Zealand. What they found was that if you are trying to learn how to listen better, you aren't gonna do that through osmosis. You don't learn to listen while you're in history class or anywhere else. You have to actually take
a course in listening. And they have to tell you, you are learning how to listen better. And then They teach you. And that's the only way they've seen that needle move in in terms of how well people listen and pay attention and most importantly, retain information.
Now this is so intriguing. So first of all I wanna know how does one measure when you say move the needle, I'm envisioning a gauge, you know, in terms of I have like a dial or a you know, a dashboard like speedometer it's type situation, move the needle. So I'm imagining there's a number or something. Like, how do we measure one's listening quality? Is that like a recall percentage or what are we thinking?
Yeah, it's usually retention, how well you can um you know, w the father of listening, the guy that we call the father of listening, Ralph Nichols, started a lot of this research back in the nineteen fifties, sixties. seventies and he um he discovered that within you know they would say to to people in their in their various studies, okay, listen really carefully. Somebody's gonna talk to you for a few minutes. Want you to listen very carefully because then we're gonna quiz you.
Uh and what they discovered was even with them listening carefully, they could only retain about fifty percent of what they'd just heard. Within forty-eight to seventy-two hours, another twenty-five percent was gone. And after that, It just basically disappeared. So if you're trying to and you know, in business, think about how often we go to annual conventions or have annual staff meetings or something and you say the exact same thing every year.
Right.
Right. Because it never actually quite makes it to our memory banks. So when you talk about listening, that's that's the measure that they use is how well did you hear, how well did you understand? Right. Um it can't be a game of telephone where the by the time you get to the end of the string, it's not at all what the first person said. So there's a couple of different measures in terms of understanding and retaining, and they've been using those for decades and that
That's one of the things where I say, Look, this isn't the problem with a smartphone. This is just a human problem.
Oh no, that's so fascinating. So if I were to take a course and I kind of want to now,'cause I just dig I dig learning and this is I just get really sort of excited when you can measure progress on something, whether it's, you know, strength training in the gym or or now you've introduced measures of listening capacity, which is exciting for me just because that's how I roll. So if if I were to take such a course
Well one, where would I find one? And two, what might be some of the sorts of exercises and practices I would do in it to improve my skills?
I think that really depends on on who's teaching it. They do have um workshops available. I do workshops sometimes especially for companies in order to help you listen better. And I can tell you that when I'm doing them, some of the the most powerful things I do are improv exercises. Um, improv requires you to really work as a team, right? Because improv is a yes and exercise. You can't contradict what you just heard.
Um, and you also have to listen all the way to the end or they have may have mentioned a a robbery that you that you didn't pay attention to and that, you know, changes the whole scene. So improv, anything that sort of kind of gets you in the moment and really focused on another person is what's really gonna help you. Uh some of the other things that you can do are are things that are frankly often used for um
People with learning disabilities, learning how to co talk. So repeating back words as someone's literally saying them, um, which always makes people really uncomfortable. I make them stand within a couple inches of somebody and just stare at their lips and try to Say the words as they're being speaking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And they can, yeah, and they can eventually, but it makes people uncomfortable. Um, and that's okay. Discomfort. is good in in a listening in a listening exercise. Yeah. Disc comfortable people don't learn, in case you didn't notice.
Well said. Well said. And so then you're saying they can eventually. So at first they're struggling because there's like maybe a a lag in terms of like two, three, four seconds behind what they're saying. And then with practice they can do it sort of real time. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, actually at at first that's usually'cause they're laughing. They feel uncomfortable and they start laughing. Um, and but if they can get over that, then they can eventually do that. You know, what's interesting is that Uh, one of the things I talk about is this incredible research out of Princeton.
Um
just from a couple of years back. And they what they did was they held this experiment where they had somebody sit down and tell an engaging story. In one instance it was a girl telling a story about a totally disastrous prom.
All right.
And then they would have people come in and they hooked them all up to FMRI machines so they could watch their brain waves. And they had people come in and listen to that story. And what they discovered was that when people were listening in an engaged way, when they were actually focused. The brain waves of the listener and the speaker speaker
Synced up. Oh wow. They paralleled each other. And sometimes the sync was so strong that the listeners' brain waves would anticipate changes in the speaker by a fraction of a second. Right. Now science calls this neural coupling. I call it mind weld because I used to watch Star Trek. But either way, that Amazing. That's an incredible talent that human beings have. And as far as we know, no one else does. We just don't tap into it.
Wow. Well it does sound sci-fi. Yeah. Or like supernatural. It's just really wild. And so then you're saying that that is achievable for anyone who comes to master listening.
That's right. If you can listen in an engaged and active way, you are able to mind meld with another person.
And so this predictive piece, are you saying that like they just sort of know like the next word or sentence that's gonna be spoken? I
Don't know. I have no idea. We haven't gotten that far. Oh I simply haven't, but it's intriguing, isn't it? Um, we have no idea.
Certainly. Well, and so now maybe we should make this all the more clear. So when it comes to listening and most of us don't do it very well and it's not so natural. And, you know, one benefit is futuristic sci-fi powers of prediction. You know, another benefit is just retaining information for longer stretches. Could you lay out for us, you know, what are some other kind of compelling whys behind why is it worth investing the time and energy to upgrade listening skills?
So think of it this way. Um Larry King once said, I will learn nothing from anything I say today. I can only learn by listening to other people. And that's literally the truth. So if you actually go about If you enter into your conversations with the intention of learning from the people that you're talking to, and then you make it a practice to talk to a ton of people, think how genius you'll be.
¶ Preparing for High-Stakes Conversations
Субтитры сделал DimaTorzok
Right? I mean, you will be so knowledgeable. I mean, that's worth it.
Yeah, that's good. I dig the Larry King quote. That's great. Well, all right. Well, this is a lot of fun. And so we could talk at length just about your ten ways to have a better conversation, but I want to make sure we also get to give some love to your book recently released, We Need to Talk. Can you share with us sort of what's the big idea behind that and in what ways is it similar to versus distinctive from the content you cover in your TED Talk?
So the book is basically the sixty thousand word version of the TED talk, which means um, that if you watch the TED Talk but you still kind of struggle to carry out some of the stuff, which is what I've heard from so many people, the book is gonna tell you exactly what to do. It's gonna give you the science behind it.
So you can understand why I say those things. And it also I I'm not, you know, standing in a superior position telling people how to behave because I'm so good at it. I I am very honest in there about the mistakes that I've made. um, the things that I screwed up and how that led me to some epiphanies as well. So, you know, I mean the book is designed to be the kind of book that you can return to. When a conversation goes badly, you should be able to go back to this book and say, Okay, what
happened. Or if you're anticipating an important conversation, whether that be asking for a raise or pitching a project or whatever it may be, you should be also able to go to this book and prepare yourself well for it.
Oh, that is great. And so well, I want to talk about a couple of those points. When it comes to preparing for intense conversations or asking for a raise or high stakes matters, what are some of the core principles and practices to follow?
So I mean one of the most important is actually not in the TED talk. It's one that I was able to address in the book, which is making sure that you have set the stage for success. So if you're trying to pitch something to someone or you're having a difficult conversation. Do it at a time when they're most likely to be in a good mood. You don't have a a conversation about something difficult with your spouse when they come home from work and they're exhausted. That's the recipe for disaster.
And that's the same thing with your boss or an employee. Watch them for a couple of days and see when they are at their best. Is it first thing in the morning? Is it right if they've had coffee? When is that? And then set them up for that. Put it be in a comfortable, warm situation if you can in terms of, you know, a place. Maybe if your office is a p I have found that coming into my office sometimes intimidates my employees. So I sometimes go to new neutral third ground.
Alright?
If I don't want them to be scared, right? So a lot of what you can do is in how you manage the expectations. And, you know, one of the third things I tell people is um don't leave people in suspense. People are not they become anxious when they're worried about what you're gonna say. So for example, I had a uh an employee that I needed to reprimand uh last year.
And he came in and he sat down and I said, Listen, this is a reprimand, um, but you are not in any way, shape, or form fired. This isn't a pathway to firing you. All that I'm intending to do is figure out a plan to get you back on track. And you could see him relax. So Yeah, we were and and ended up able to actually have a real conversation in which he listened to me rather than sitting there terrified that he was about to lose his job if he said the wrong thing.
And I think it's just so powerful as well when you can just name it and just vocalize like what someone else is thinking, feeling, experiencing. I remember one time on the opposite side of things, it was wild. There was just sort of a very odd fellow who tried to Sell me many copies of his self published books. And I just tugged into him at a subway restaurant and uh he said, Hey, could you give me some feedback on this book? It just slopped it on my table there and I was like, Well
I've been there before, needing feedback on a book, so sure. I'll tell you just what I think, you know. Wha how come I can't see a title on the spine? You know, all these things. Yeah. And then and so he's like, Oh and so then he became very fascinated with me and I kind of wanted to be done with our conversation after about, you know, three minutes.
And and he did not. And so but it was amazing how he just sort of keyed in on what I was saying. He's like, you know, it seems as though each sentence I say causes a greater degree of concern for you. It's like well if yeah, it really does. Yeah, but it didn't stop him, you know, from California.
Yeah, I probably would have cut him off.
But it it's fascinating how, sure enough, him just sort of, you know, naming it, you know, caused me to kind of get sucked in a little bit farther in terms of okay, in terms of being engaged and intrigued by what is up with this guy.
And he seems to be picking up on some stuff. And so whether it's sort of calms or inflames, I think that there is just something potent about sort of specifying, you know, exactly where someone is and what their experience is and it just sort of can change the stage in a hurry.
Absolutely. And I have I mean I've tried I every single thing that I put in the book of things that I tried out. I mean when I first started researching this years ago, I went to all those books and sources that gave us information and better conversation and I tried that stuff out too. And that's why I know it doesn't work.
Well can you tell us something that does not work?
Yeah, that whole you know, maintain eye contact and and nod your head and say uh-huh to show that you're paying attention. It's just crap. I mean, that does not work at all. Um you should eye contact is a powerful thing, but you can't force it. Um, and nodding and saying uh-huh is just you learning how to pretend you're paying attention instead of actually paying attention.
None of those things create an authentic, better conversation for me. So, you know, you know, that's the benefit of of being in a studio every morning where I'm speaking to a number of people all the time, is I can really test this stuff. And and that's how I know the the r s the the advice we've been getting it it's just not it's not good.
¶ The Importance of Brevity and Focus
Oh, that's excellent. Thank you. Well, I also want to make sure we get into some of your wisdom when it comes to keeping it short. You know, we had a guest, Jill McCormick, on episode one hundred seventy one. He wrote the book Brief. And that was a great conversation. And so I would love your perspective. How can we do a better job of keeping it brief? And why is that important?
Well, I mean the first thing that's important is'cause we all know our attention span is shrinking, right? Microsoft has measured that our our attention span is one second shorter than that of a goldfish. Why swim upstream?
You know, i i if someone is gonna have a hard time paying attention to you and and maintaining attention, keep it short so that they hear everything that you say. That's the first thing. If you tend to run on and on and on, you are not going to maintain their attention. So it's a waste of your time.
Um, the other thing in terms of keeping it brief is that the brain can only hold on to one or two um significant thoughts at any one time. All right. So you don't want to go and talk to somebody and just release a litany of things. You wanna choose one or two things Emphasize them and then get out.
Mm-hmm. Okay. Understood. And so then when it comes to doing that well, you know, we say, Oh, but how can I say one or two things? I have so many things. You know, what's the formula or approach to help get that whittled down?
I'm not sure there's a formula other than just well the fur probably your first step is to look at a timer and start talking and and start to become aware of how long you're talking. Okay. You know what I mean? Because I don't think most people realize how long a minute is. Um, and so you may not even be aware of that. So, you know, and it's also I don't think people are often totally aware of how many times they go off on a tangent in one.
thing. You know, we we can a lot of people complain about someone running on and on and on. I bet those people who run on and on and on don't realize they're they're doing it. So um that's probably your first step is just to become aware. And, you know, if you have somebody that you talk to regularly, maybe you could have them be your helper in this uh and say, if I do that, tap me on the shoulder. Um
Okay, that's good. Well, so tell me, Celeste, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?
Um, last thing I'd wanna say is that your your cell phone is not your friend. All right. Um, and your smartphone is is is to the best of our knowledge at this point, possibly changing your brain. Um, it is distracted by that phone all the time. It is making the other person, you know, there's research showing that just having the phone sitting on a table at lunch makes the other person see you as less trustworthy, less empathetic.
Oh let's hear that again. So if they see my phone at the table where we're eating lunch, they think I'm less trustworthy and empathetic.
Yeah, well the way that the research went is that they had strangers talk to each other and in in half of those situations they walked in and set a cellphone down on the table. And it blonged belongs to neither of the people and it never made noise. But when they came out, those people who were speaking with a cellphone presence said the other person was less empathetic and less trustworthy, less friendly.
So we feel good because we don't pick up the phone, right, and look at it. But i in fact the mere presence of it is not just distracting you, it's distracting the other person in a negative way. So put it away.
Wow. So I'm thinking the cell phone'cause sometimes to take it out of my pocket this is like this is getting close to home, Celeste.
I'm sorry.
Sometimes I'll take my cell phone out of my pocket and just set it down, face down on the table, silent. So it's out of my pocket and so I'm just more comfortably seated with my legs and the furniture and you know, keys and wallet, whatever. So I'm more comfortably seated. But you're saying just the presence of the phone, no beeping, no buzzing, no lighting up in and of itself is creating negative associations.
That is correct. So you have to put it away.
Okay. Well I'm glad to learn this from you rather than the person I'm eating lunch with who thinks that I'm no good.
Yeah, and they won't know why, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'm so glad you brought that up. So you're saying the phone is not our friend. It's causing some trouble. And where were we headed with that?
I mean we have to stop we gotta reverse that trend. I you don't have to get rid of your smartphone, it's very useful, but what you have to do is start reclaiming the human tasks from the smartphone. And communication is an inherently human task. So stop using email and texting and emojis to do your communication for you and instead pick up the phone.
¶ Celeste's Favorite Things and Wisdom
All right. Well that's good. Well, Celeste, now I'd love to hear some of your favorite things. Could you start us off by sharing a favorite quote, something that you find inspiring?
So I'm a Buddhist, so one of my favorite quotes is from the Dalai Lama who said, um He said, My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness. And he also said, you know, be kind whenever possible. It is always possible.
That's good. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?
Um, that one is really difficult, but I would say probably anything by Charles Dickens, um, and in fact some of the best. reading one of the books I've read the most over the the course of my life was um a tale of two cities, which I I really like and I think is actually really relevant. to the situation that we find ourselves in today. And it's not quite as depressing as Bleak House, for example.
Oh thank you. And how about a favorite tool?
My favorite tool is my Fitbit.
Okay.
Yeah. It would have to be my fit bit because it reminds me when I've been sitting at my computer for too long and tells me to get up.
Okay. And how about a favorite habit?
Uh my favorite habit is um waking up in the morning and doing my exercise first thing at like five or five thirty a.m. That just sets me up for success in the day.
And what is the exercise of show extra?
It's a combination of circuit training and uh cardio. I switch'em out.
Okay. So like there's a gym full of machinery that you're doing sort of resistance training. Okay.
Exactly.
You're up at that hour, may inquire, when do you go to bed and are you getting enough sleep, Celeste? I'm concerned.
I am getting lots of sleep. Good. Um I I do have a sleep I do have a sleep tracker as well. Oh
On top of the Fitbit or integrated into the Fitbit?
No, on top of the Fitbit. I am all for using technology for things I can't do.
Okay.
I just don't want you to use for technology for things you do better. Um, so yeah, I go to sleep. I'm in bed by like nine or nine thirty.
Okay, solid. Well so now I need to know what's the sleep tracker and should I buy it? What's the story with it? Is it it does better than my Fitbit can do?
Oh yeah. And I use an S plus Resmind R E S M E D and it is fantastic.
medical, what is this?
It is. In fact, that's the same company that makes the devices for uh for when you have trouble at night. So um it is a medical company that makes it. It is remarkably accurate and it gives you in the morning little tips. It says, you know, you had trouble getting to sleep last night. It could be because the light level in your room was at this level. Oh no. Yeah. It could be that there is too much sound in your room because we tracked this. Yeah. It's very helpful.
So let's spell that out. Can I buy this on Amazon? Do I need it to see a physician? S plus resmed. R E S M E D.
That's right.
OS Space ResMed. Oh, my personal sleep solution for just uh forty-five dollars or so, huh? Okay. Oh oh Celeste, this is it's so funny. Sleep is a personal passion of mine and the listeners may have intuited that the two longest episodes of them all were me grilling sleep, doctor. And so and they were great.
That's so good. Well, I'm buying one. Thank you. Um okay, perfect. Now so and is there a particular nugget that's something that you share in your speaking, in your writing, or you're working with teammates that really seems to connect and resonate with them?
Um, so here's the the last little uh tidbit I'll share. And this is in the book as well. Um, one of the most powerful things you can do to start being more aware of how good you are in conversation is make a list of like the five things that other people do in conversation that you hate. All right. The things that just bug you the most. Then take that list without telling people what it is, but asking for their complete honesty, take it to them and say, okay, how many of these things do I do?
Alright.
And that might be a little bit of a shock to some people because you will often find the things that bother you the most are the things that you are doing to other people. But it is a really good eye opener.
Okay. Excellent. Well Celeste, tell me if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Well, they can certainly go to my website, Celesteheadley.com. Um at this point the best thing you could possibly do is buy the book.
Okay, perfect. And the book is called We Need to Talk and it is available for purchase right here, right now, wherever books are sold. Anything we should add about that? No. Okay, perfect. In any sort of final challenge or call to action, get the book and is there more?
Get the book, no, and start talking, you know, get start having small talk with your Uber driver and your barista.
Okay. Perfect. Well, Celeste, this has been a whole lot of fun. I definitely learned some things and I'm sure listeners did as well. So I wish you tons of luck with, you know, big sales for We Need to Talk and all the stuff that you're up to.
Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was good to talk to you.
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I was really intrigued by Celeste's recommendation to list the five things that you really hate in a conversation and watch out to see if you're doing those'cause you're at elevated risk. for doing so. For the record, as I reflect on this myself, for me, it's when people say, uh-huh, or sort of the I'm listening words, which we learned can really just be fake I'm listening words, sort of prematurely. So if I say,
I'm really looking forward to this weekend. And I say, I'm really looking forward to and then I hear an uh-huh right there. It's like, well, I'm not I'm not down there. This is no pause. It's like a micro interruption and I don't like it. So I don't know. That's one of my things. Hopefully I don't do it. Let me know if we're chatting and I do, and I'm sorry.
So if you want to check out the show notes or the transcript or the links to items that we've referenced, it's on over at awesome at your job.com slash ep221. I also hope to fully subscribe, you'll catch our next guest. We're talking to Rich and Marcus from the Pay Checks and Balances podcast. These dudes are a lot of fun and have some real wisdom that could result in you reaping many, many more thousands of dollars over the course of your career. Peace.
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