Have you ever made a vision board, like visualized your success, try to manifest something into existence. It feels good right that, according to the science, it might actually be working against you. Now, this is part two of my conversation with behavioral scientist and author of Beyond Belief, Near El And if you haven't listened to part one yet, go back and start there.
NIA spent six years digging into exactly this why positive thinking, vision boards and manifesting feels so compelling, but why the research tells a very different story. Today we are going to get into failure goals and how you might be able to benefit from them, how leaders can use simulation designed to shape what their teams see and do, and what higher performance athletes actually visualize. And it's not the finish line. Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies.
For optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber.
Now, before we started recording, you were asking me what my favorite parts of the book were, and I told you that one of my favorite strategies that's in the book. I love it because there are so many great concepts in the book, but it's also really practical that so many great strategies and rituals and practices in there.
One of my.
Favorites is failure goals and this resonated with me because at the moment as I was sharing with you, I'm in that really awkward process of book writing where you reach out to people asking for a testimonial or a blurb as they're called in America, and I just feel so awkward asking for You know what is quite a big favor because it involves reading a book, and not
even a hard copy book. It's generally a PDF that is in some kind of hopefully not too bad form, and failure goals made me think, ah, I need to shift my belief around that. Can you share what a failure goal is?
Absolutely so. Failure goals comes out of these different techniques that we can use to increase our luck surface area that it turns out, one of the things that surprised me in this research is that luck is not chance. We think that luck just happens, and that's not true. That lucky people manufacture luck. And this goes back to the power beliefs about how beliefs change what you see, feel, and do. I'll give you a quick study that demonstrated this.
There was a study where they asked people who were self identified as lucky and self identified as unlucky, and they give them a very very simple task. They ask them to look through a newspaper that they had given them and just count the number of images in the newspaper. That's all I have to do. Two three, just count the number of images in the newspaper. Now, people who
were self identified as unlucky, right, they call themselves. Unlucky people took them about two and a half minutes to do this task and then collect their reward two and a half minutes. Lucky people took eleven seconds. Eleven seconds. How what happened? Turns out that on page two, as soon as they opened the newspaper, one of those images said, there are forty three images in this paper. Collect your reward.
And it turns out that the lucky people saw that they saw an ad that the unlucky people on average didn't see. And if you asked those unlucky people, why didn't you just do what the ad told you? I didn't see it. No clue didn't exist for me. Like it literally shaped what they were able to see. And this is this is the core of entrepreneurship. When an entrepreneur sees an opportunity and says, God, this is so obvious. Why isn't everyone else doing this? There's one hundred dollar
bills all over the floor. That's essentially what they're saying. You're calling everyone else an idiot by saying, how do you not see this amazing opportunity? An entrepreneur needs that bit of what Walter Isaacson called the reality distortion feel to even make this opportunity possible. And so by having that attitude, that belief about the world, you become more lucky. You see opportunities that other people don't see. And so another opportunity is to a technique I should say, is
these failure goals. So as opposed to how most people see reality, failure is bad. Failure should be punished, right, don't fail. That's not how successful people see failure. Successful people see failure as checking off what doesn't work. That a failure is good, a failure should be rewarded. Best way to illustrate this think about whatever goal is in
your way. Okay, so whatever obstacle. So if it's you have a goal for closing more sales, a goal for getting funding for your venture, a goal for making a key higher, a goal to find love in your life, whatever that goal might be. And if I told you, hey, look, I traveled inside a time machine and I went to
the future. And I know for a fact that if you fail five more times, just five more times, five more sales calls, five more dates, five more meetings with venture capitalists, five more the sixth to one, you're going to succeed. You're going to hit it big with that six time. What are you going to do. Are you going to say, oh, well, I don't want to fail. No, no, no, no thanks, that's too hard. No, you're gonna say, okay, quick, let's go. I want to fail. Fail, fail, come on,
let's fail. That's a failure goal. So when you set to yourself a metric for look, I know success is going to come. I need to follow the process. And every time I fail, Hey, I'm getting closer to my goal, because that's what it takes as long as I'm still learning. Now, failure without learning is a different story. But as long as you are failing in your learning, that actually is progress. It's not a point to quit, it's a point to celebrate.
Well, I love that I actually set a failure goal on the weekend. Thanks to reading about that in your Bookcau's made me much more motivated. And it reminded me actually of something that happened to me in my early twenties where I was pursuing a career as in position and I'd send out my demo to a bunch of
record labels and managers and publishers. And I remember, obviously I hadn't read your books, It's going back quite some time, but I'd set myself the goal that I want my bedroom wall to be covered in rejection letters before I would get one acceptance. And it didn't take that long. And believe it, I had set a failure goal there, and that was quite motivating.
Fantastic.
Now, I want to talk about the idea of designing simulations. And in the book you talk about the idea of leaders changing how they think about the workplace and thinking about it as this simulation that their team is stepping into every day. Can you talk a bit more about like, what what does that mean practically the leaders of simulation designers.
Yeah, so remember how we talked earlier about how we are creating simulations in our own heads based on our beliefs. Well, when we expand that circumstance, when we go from the individual to the organization, that is nothing but company culture. What is company culture. It's a set of codified beliefs that dictate how we see reality. So what gets rewarded, what gets punished, What will help us succeed in this enterprise is based on that company culture, which is nothing
more than a set of beliefs. When we say that we believe that the customer is first, or that shareholders are first, or whoever is first. When we have those set of beliefs, those aren't facts, right, Many companies that put customers as number one still failed. So it's not necessarily that it's a fact that every time you put customers first you're going to succeed. It's all kinds of reasons you may not succeed, but it's something we hold
on to. It's something that we believe because based on evidence, we think it's going to help us. It's going to be a liberating belief. It's going to increase motivation within the company to do what we need to do to succeed. So crafting that company culture, there's of course that documented the codified culture that everybody sees. Then, of course there's the practical application of do we walk the walk? Do we actually do what we believe is that part of
the company culture, and that flows downhill. That you know, water flows downhill and culture flows downhill. So when people see what management does, what does the big boss do to what do they not only say, but what do they actually do? That is the manifestation of these beliefs. And so it's not something that we can take lightly.
That we need to design that simulation appropriately every single day because it literally shapes what the people in our organization do, not only that, it shapes what the products do for our customers. So I wonder ifill illustration of this has to do with how our expectations of a product can shape the actual experience. So when we talk about the three powers of belief, the power to change what we see, feel, and do, many times we think, Okay, I manufacture this coffee mug, and the coffee mug is
a coffe mugg. It is what it is. No, it's not, it's what you expect it to be. It's what you expect that experience to endow you with. That turns out to have a profound effect. So, for example, we know that when golfers were given a putter that they were told was used by a famous golfer, a very successful golfer, Tiger Woods or somebody, I don't know who, they told
them they did better, their golf skills magically improved. We know that when you are told they did a beautiful study where they put people in an fMRI machine and they gave them a little tube inside their mouth that gave them a sample of wine. And they told these people, hey, this wine is five dollars a bottle. Okay, five dollars bottle of wine. What do you think of it? And they would describe it as you know, okay, it's all right, it's a little harsh on the thinish, et cetera, et cetera.
And they would see in their brain what was happening because they were in this fMRI machine at the time. Then they said, okay, we're gonna give us a second sample of wine. This is a very expensive bottle of wine. Okay, now sample the wine. What do you think of this wine? Oh,
it's very nice. I like it. It's it has a hint of oak and cherry, and you know all this stuff that win snobs say, and it turns out not only do these people express that the wine was better, they could actually see in their brains that the more expensive wine was processed differently. Now, of course the trick here, you know, there's a trick. He was the same wine. They give them the exact same wine two different times. All they changed was what they told them about the
price of the wine. Now, how does this apply to us in business? Like price, we set expectations through beliefs, So whatever we anticipate will happen to some degree that is actually what happens. And so what is advertising? We think advertising is about promoting our brand, is about telling people, is about increasing awareness. Okay, yes, but that's not the main goal. If you think about you know, why does Coca Cola spend so much money on advertising? We all
know Coca Cola. Who doesn't know Coca Cola. They can't increase brand awareness anymore, we all know it already. Why do they do that? They spend all that money on
brand awareness because they're trying to change your experience. So when you have an image in your mind of refreshing and delicious and whatever, they can change that actual experience, just like that wine study that showed that, hey, if we just tell you with more expensive, you're actually going to enjoy it even though it's the same bottle line. The same goes with our advertising, so company culture, branding, advertising.
All of these things go back to the power belief and how our beliefs really do shape our perception of reality.
We've been talking about beliefs at an individual level so far, but after the break Neia looks at how beliefs play out at work, in leadership, and in the goals we set ourselves. Coming up, Nia gets into why the way you frame something to your team matters just as much as the thing itself, how to walk into a situation you're already dreading and flip it around, and why positive thinking might actually be working against you. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way you work, can Live.
I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. You shared a really interesting anecdote on this topic around leaders that had applied some of the concepts from your last book indiestractable and how they framed those concept impacted the results. Can you share, like the different types of framing that you saw laters.
Do and what happened. Yeah, that with Indiestractable, with my second book, which is a book about how to fight distraction and be more productive. When leaders would sell my workshop to their staff as, hey, we're going to do a personal productivity workshop versus we're going to show you how to gain control over your attention, and just that simple reframe of empowering versus teaching and lecturing huge impact.
Right That people felt much more agency and control and actually did better in terms of implementing these techniques based on the framing. And so it's not something to be glossed over. It's not, Hey, the product is what the product is. No, the anticipation of what the product will do for you and how we frame that is incredibly important.
Now, something I am doing next week, which I've to sum myself up to is going to a networking event, so like an industry thing for organizational psychologists. I don't think I'm going to know anyone, and I hate networking events, as I think most people do, but I thought this would be good for me to go along too. Can you tell me how I can apply this idea of simulation design and changing my beliefs to set me up for success.
Sure. So if you walk in saying I hate it, you will because again, with this expectation loop, it starts with a belief. That belief is based on an anticipatory response what you expect to happen. That anticipatory response is turning into a feeling, and then is reinforced with confirmation. So it's believe, anticipate, feel confirmed. That's this loop. And this is exactly what happens with the products we use. It's exactly what happens with every experience that we partake in.
So if you believe that you're not going to like this experience, that is what your brain anticipates. That is then what you feel because you pay attention to, hey, this is what's happening. Oh you see that sucks and this isn't very good and I don't like this, and then of course you confirm it by what you just did. I hate networking, So now you reinforce the very belief. Now I don't blame you, I'm the exact same way. That's why I wrote this book we are exactly got
from the same exact cloth. So instead, what you're gonna do is you're going to try and do this in reverse. You're not going to look for why you hate networking, but rather you're going to find You're going to walk in and say, I'm going to find three things I liked about this event tonight, Like literally walk in saying, I'm going to intentionally look for three things that I like about this event. It can be hey, the food was pretty good, or I met one person I really liked,
or the music was nice, and it doesn't matter. You're going to intentionally look for You're going to anticipate something good. Then you're going to note that sensation. You're going to feel that thing inside you, whether it's hey, you know what, I met that really nice person and that made me feel good and I hope we stay in touch. And then you're gonna confirm it. You're going to say it to somebody else, you know, maybe write it down for yourself and say it to somebody else about a couple
things that you really liked about that circumstance. And of course what's going to happen is over time, your brain is going to see more of that. So you can use that believe, anticipate, feel confirm loop to change these beliefs overtime, and what you will find is that you'll like it more over time. I mean, I'll give you a personal example. My business today is public speaking, right, so that's how I make most of my livelihood, is
public speaking. And yet when I first got started, I had terrible stage fright, terrible stage fright, and I would constantly tell myself whenever I would feel these physiological sensations of dry mouth before I would get on stage and sweaty armpits and my heart was palpitating, I would tell myself, I'm no good at this. I hate public speaking. If I was any good at this, then I wouldn't feel
these things. A professional doesn't feel these things. And so I kept looking for what I believe to be true that when I felt these signals, these physiological signals, ah, you see, that means I'm not good at this and why I hate it, and that I would keep going down that believe, anticipate, feel confirmed loop. How do I change it? I started believing something different about the same
exact physiological reactions. Okay, that I started interpreting them differently, so I still get those heart palpitations even talking to you right now, right, I'm quote unquote nervous. My heart is beating, and I still have the sweaty armpits. I still have the same exact physiological sensations. That didn't change. What change is my interpretation. So now when I feel my heart beating, I don't say, oh, I'm getting nervous and I'm going to mess up and this is going
to be terrible. And why do I feel this? I wish I wouldn't. No, I reduce my suffering by reinterpreting the same exact physiological signals. So now when my heart is beating, I have a different story. The story is, oh, my heart is beating quickly so that I can get more oxygen to my brain so I can deliver my best possible performance. And now I anticipate something different. Right, my belief changed. I anticipate something different, I feel something different.
I actually do feel now I'm excited. Hey, my heart's beating quick that's excitement. That's not nervousness. That's excitement. And now I confirm it by hey, you know what I did pretty well? And let me note back with that reality journal of Hey, you know, maybe I did wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better.
I love that. Now I want to talk about visualization because so many so called gurus say, just like, visualize the thing and it will come true, or you can manifest your way to success, and you know, the evidence is kind of limited. Tell me why does positive thinking and visualization actually backfire according to science?
Right, that is exactly right, that there is a negative side to positive thinking, and that is that most people who espouse these techniques haven't actually looked at the research literature that in fact, we know that when you visualize something, and that's all you do is you visualize the end goal.
For example, when you think about manifesting, when you think about vision boards, right, very popular exercise, when you're visualizing the end goal, it actually is counterproductive and studies have found this. Gabrielle Otigen did several studies like this where she took people, she brought them into a lab and she asked them to visualize what they want to manifest, to think about the future reality that they want to
bring to themselves. And while they were doing this, she connected them to blood pressure monitors and she found that when people were visualizing the outcome of their success, I want the beach body, I want to make lots of money, I want the to find love in my life. When they were visualizing what they wanted as the end goal, their blood pressure dropped, and when she monitored their progress over time after they had left the lab, they became
less likely to achieve their goals less likely. Why is that, We think it's because this exercise of visualizing a future outcome makes you more relaxed and therefore tells the brain you've already accomplished the reward. You already have it, so to speak. If you can imagine it, you experience in a way, and you become less motivated to actually go out there and do it. Why does that happen. That happens, we think because you're not preparing yourself for the inevitable
difficulty of achieving that goal. When people say, well, yeah, but athletes do this, right, athletes visualize all kinds of things. What are athletes visualizing? It is true, athletes do visualize. How do they visualize? What are they visualizing? They are not visualizing. Talk to any performance high performance athlete. They're not visualizing. Here, I am standing up at the Olympics with my gold medal. Here I am holding up the trophy.
That's not what they're visualizing. What they're visualizing are the obstacles in their way. That's the big difference. That's what people don't tell you. With this manifesting and vision boarding and positive thinking, it's not about the positive energy in the vibes. It's about understanding what you will do when there's an inevitable barrier in your way, when there's some
kind of difficulty. So what is an athlete visualize? They visualize, Hey, I'm on offense, and when defense comes at me, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm skiing down the mountain, and here's what it's going to do when it gets really tricky. That's what they're visualizing. So for us, in our everyday goals, what we have to do is not visualize the ending. It's getting comfortable with the discomfort. We're inevitably going to fail. So when we inevitably fail and get off go off track.
So for me, for example, I used to be clinically obese. Today i'm forty eight. I'm in the best shape of my life. But it's not because of genetics, or because I like fitness not at all. I still don't like exercise per se, but I've changed my mindset around these things. I've changed my beliefs, and I prepare myself not with the final outcome. I don't die it well, I don't live a healthy lifestyle just because I'm thinking about, Oh, I want to go to the beach and take off
my shirt. You know, like, that's not what I'm talking about. Rather, I visualize what will I do when I go to a dinner party and someone offers me a chocolate cake or a glass of wine that I know is not healthy for me? What will I do with the discomfort I'm feeling in that moment. That's the right thing to visualize, and changing our beliefs around that discomfort, seeing it as an asset again, changing what we anticipate will happen when we feel that invariable discomfort, and knowing how to deal
with it. That's the right way to utilize positive thinking and imaging and what's called mental contrasting. You're contrasting the future reality with what's in your way to getting that reality.
I love that, Neil. I could just keep talking to you for hours, but I need to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for coming back on how I work. I just I absolutely love our chats. I love your work. There's so much more I wanted to talk about that listeners are just going to have to go out and buy your brilliant book, Beyond Belief. Ni, thank you for putting such great work into the world.
I appreciate. It's an honor to be back on your show. It's I appreciate you calling me back, and thank you so much for digesting the book. I'm very honored. Thank you.
One thing I took from this chat with Nia is that visualizing the finish line of a big project online stone feels really productive. But what nearest research shows is that athletes who actually get there aren't picturing the trophy. They're picturing the moment that things get hard and exactly what they'll do when that happens. So when things get hard,
and they will, what am I going to do? That is the question worth sitting with, in my opinion, and Nia's brand new book, Beyond Belief, is out now, and honestly, both parts of this conversation have only scratched the surface of what's in it. There are links to the book and Part one in the show notes, and hit follow so you don't miss what's coming next week on How I Work. If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when
new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Cooler Nation.