Respecting your craft and your audience with kids comedy duo The Listies

If you've got young kids, keeping them entertained is a pretty tricky balancing act. Popping on a movie or TV show can be a lifesaver, giving them something to focus on for a while. But trust me, you can only watch bright flashing lights and listen to sickly sweet sing along so many times before you feel your brain starts to melt. Thankfully, we have a savior two of them. In fact, the Listies are one of my daughter's favorite comedy acts, and I count myself incredibly lucky because I

Oh that quote is so good, isn't that?

Yeah?

Really nicely it just makes me feel well worth fifteen dollars we paid him. Matt and I always start from the premise, which of what do children know?

Like what do they know?

Because the idea of the clown, which is what we are effectively, is that the kids can't have one over on us. The audience are like, no, you're wrong, They yeah, so, but what do kids know? So we have to start from that, Like they know animals, they know musical instruments, they know their parents' names, they know stuff like that.

So I think that's that's what we start from.

Yeah, we've got a whole show that's about going to bed, like where Richard's trying to get me to go to bed, and that came from that came from just observing like this kid in our lives and coming up with every strategy that they could to try and stay up for longer.

And that's it.

We kind of looked at that moment when that's that's something that they would intuitively know and that parents would know as well, So we kind of like dig down and try and think about common family experiences as well, like being trapped in the car, being trapped inside on a long day and on.

A rainy day.

That's the other thing about Gwen comedy. When you have two characters, how do why don't they just if they're so annoying to each other, why don't they just leave? Like you have to have some premise of keeping them in the same place. So they're stuck in a lift, they're stuck in the car, it's raining, so they can't leave, So that you're always looking for those new and new premise.

Yeah, yeah.

The thing that one of the many things that I like about your comedy, even though I'm not the target market, although I guess parents kind of.

Really you're a kid old.

I'm a kid old, yes, And I say this having listened to hundreds of hours of your sketches and songs. Thank you to my daughter, Frankie.

I'm so sorry about all that time.

And I will just give advice.

To any of you listeners.

Just don't like don't it's not worth it.

It's like a packet of biscuits once you.

Have wine the whole much in a way.

But my question is, like, your humor works so well for kids but also for adults, And how does that work when you're thinking that this has to be funny for kids, and so you're thinking about what they know. But how do you then weave in I don't know, that other element that sits on top of that where adults will laugh as well.

I think that's in the mechanics of the double act, isn't it like to really talk technically, Like we used to think that our double act was older brother younger brother, and then we just had this revelation that actually what we're doing is playing out a parent child anxiety. And so when Richard's getting mad, he's expressing something that everyone is saying, something that every parent in the audience has thought about saying, never really got the opportunity to do it.

And that's doing that for the kid too.

Yeah, and then and then everyone gets a pleasure in watching that those tables be turned or and I think we think about so I think we do hold the parents in our mind as much as we hold the kids in our minds when we're thinking about what's funny, and I think we are delivered laughs from both because of that reason.

I think there is.

A cartoon by Leanna Fink, who's a New Yorker cartoonist that I love so much, and it's a kid, an outline of a kid, and it says child, and inside the child there's a blob, a tiny blob, and it says adult. And then there's a picture of an adult, like an outline of an adult, which is adult, and then inside that is a blob that says child. So you know, when you say we talk about kids and adults as if they are diametrically opposed, but actually, when you're an adult, you still have the child in you.

So yeah, what do you do if you get the feedback, let's say from a director for example, that you need to inject more humor into a scene.

Contrast is a thing that we definitely think about.

Yeah, we think about what's the worst that could happen? Is another kind of joke generating thing because basically the machine of the lists is just trying to find a way for Richard to yell like, how do we reach it?

Quite? Not quite, because if you look at there are frustrated. You know.

Tim Ferguson has a book called The Cheeky Monkey that he has a workshop that he does around that, which we've both done, and he really breaks down a whole bunch of tactics that are really good for finding jokes in quite a mechanical way.

So reversal of expectations, confirmations of expectations, benign violence, that kind.

Of yeah, unexpected display of skill.

You know, a guy goes out to the you know, a guy sweeping on the stage and there's a grand piano and then turns to the audience and realize, oh, I'm sweeping and there's an audience there, and then starts playing Buck's piano concerto. That's going to get a laugh because it's unexpected display a skill. How do you get Frank has.

A clown workshop.

I've done with him too, which is wrongness. How do you get things wrong in a fun way? So he his example was a rubber glove, so he could make that into a chicken. He could flick it in himself in the face. He could pretend it's a balloon and float away. You know, how can you get things wrong in a creative way? And then you've got pun uh rhymes like so general wordplay.

And we one of the things that that we sort of so if we if we're looking through like if we're drafting, so we had to make some educational content.

For We didn't have to, we wanted to.

We really did. Yeah, and it was about teaching kids.

We were in that we got put in soldier confinement.

The only way they us we we've got commissioned to write some education.

Way I put it.

Yeah, that was teaching kids about emotional literacy, which is a very dry subject. And so the first pass of those scripts was like, we just need to like put more jokes into into this.

That's true.

So then what we found was how do we insert that into like a more comedic framework, like what is what is the sketch, what's the premise of the sketch?

What have we and wrong?

And so we we redrafted them and how do we add more absurdity? How do we so we do? We do look at we do look at the story that we're telling, all the information that we have to relay or convey, and then yeah, we do we actually do mechanically go through and look for.

There's too many times in this or just had a musical bit like yeah, we we haven't had any silent bits. Let's try and make this silent like that. That's that getting to the variation.

And it's a thing that I don't.

Think we ever talked about this in an interview. Now, yes, think about this is how the sausage is made, but it is.

But it is a thing that uh that in those Tim fergus and workshops where he's talking about in in a writer's room on like a big American sitcom, they'll go through and it's three jokes of page, three jokes a minute, and I'll circle the jokes in a red pen. And that's a thing that we think about too when we're writing scripts. It's like, the joke needs to be circlable. It needs to be a joke, not just something that's some thinks a bit funny, or it's a.

Reference which isn't actually a joke.

Yeah, when you see other kids entertainers, what are you guys looking for? How are you viewing that? Because I imagine it's through a different lens than myself.

Ah, it's a hard price to steal. Oh yeah, how do they what's their recipe for slime? Ah? How did they get that to explode? Ah?

Wow, they're only doing forty five minutes. We do sixty five. Perhaps we could make our shows shorter and our life would be easier stuff like that. So no, that's just I don't know what.

I don't know how to ask well, I mean, when we answer that question honestly, yeah, I.

Mean, let's go for an honest how much how.

Much they respect the kids? Like really, when it comes down.

To it, if they're doing a show that's lobbing jokes at the parents and then throwing in some easy fart jokes or it's very easy to it's two. There's two ways to make kids laugh. Kids will laugh when they know that they're expected to laugh, and then there's a second laugh which comes from their bones, and we always

But also like I always go, oh, we shove got to up our costume game. That's a good costume. Look at that prop. It looks much better than ours.

Oh, look at the case they arrived in. Ah, that pack. The way they pack that prop into that suitcase is really good. Like, I'm just looking for stuff that we think. God, I get a bit competitive, you know.

How do you decide what's appropriate to put in kids entertainment?

Yeah? What is appropriate?

Okay, So I think I think I'm more conservative than riches. Like there's a bit in our new show where I show my bum crack quite a lot where I'm leaning just the top of.

It, just the very top top of it.

Just the top of his bum crack, like the most you would see from like a delivery guy.

He bends over.

That, and I was like, there's no like, that's that's that's on the line, But well, it is a line.

You cross the line perpendicular the line no one.

Wants to see, which because no one wants to follow that line because it leads to a place where no one wants to go.

But so I was like, I'm not quite sure this works, Like, but what actually does what actually makes it work for us?

And I think that that.

Is Richard's outrage at it that if.

It was just if it was just a you know, a forty two year old man showing his bum crack to an audience of kids, I probably wouldn't have a career because Richard Richard would be in an institution in jail. But because Richard Richard's playing out the parent telling off the naughty kid, don't do that. Stop doing that. What is appropriate can change, and the level of Richard's outrage.

He can if it if it's too far over the line, Richard can really pull it back.

Yeah.

There's a guy called Bernie Mankoff and he's got this lecture about comedy and stuff, and here his whole thing about what a joke is is it's a benign violation. So you've got to break the rules, but you've got to do it in a way that's not horrible, like because if you totally break the rules like that, that's not a joke. That's punk, you know, Or that's sort of full on art too. It's too violating to you know, it's not funny, but if it's if it's sort of

Make it it's like said some we as well pooh and wich.

And then you know the undy she would use it would be massive, like old man undies. And then she'd be like, oh yeah, so we don't just see them, we should then throw them into the audience and by that point, I was like, oh, this is breaking too many rules, this is too naughty, But.

Actually she's right, it was.

It's still everyone knows it's not real pooh, it's not real. We and they're not really Matt's undy. So it's a violation of the rules, but it's a benign violation, and you know, an audience will tell you at the moment they think it's not benign.

But then there are sort of other things that are inappropriate, like we don't we're not we don't really violent in the bullying, like no hit each other. No, we don't fetishize tech on stage, we don't have like Matts not.

Obsessed with chocolates or that.

Kind of stuff. There's sort of the few things along the way that we've discovered where we're like, we're not really interested in presenting.

No, it's amazing.

It is amazing to see other clowning traditions, like we did shows in Korea and the slapstick there is really like quite full on and it is very funny. I find it very funny, but it's it's sort of not to our taste.

I think it's a bit as a group.

Yeah, and you also see it with like the Three Stooges, you know, where they do that thing where they pull each other's nose, they pull their ears and slap. It's so full on to watch now with our twenty twenty two eyes and go, wow.

They were very, really violent. I think that man just looks like he should leave this trio. He's in a bad relationship.

I want to ask about attention, because I mean, it's hard enough holding adults attention for sixty minutes, which is about the length of one of your show. Is what principles are you applying to hold young people's attention for that long.

I think it's like a five minute rule, really, isn't it? So the show should change substantially every five minutes? And I think that that when I think that's true of like you say, like of adult shows too, right, even if it's just a person telling a story, that story should change.

Pace or volume or or flavor.

Every so often to keep your interest because otherwise, you know, when I see shows that don't do that, I start getting.

Angry, quietly angry.

But I think we have a five minute rule, unconscious rule, isn't it, Because if something and then if something's three, then the next thing can be seven, but really nothing should be longer than ten.

Yeah, we sort of change it's I think again. We learned from Lynn, who Rich was talking about with Underpants before. Her whole approach to kids shows was just let genre help you. Like just genre sets everyone kids see so many different types of movies. So if you're going to do something, what if we did this bit of science fiction? So what does that mean? What does the music sound like? What are your costumes?

That kind of stuff.

But then she would go, Okay, so this bit's in the style of a Western. And so what we learned from her was that like changing the game can arrest interest.

I think.

We will be back with the list. He is soon talking about how working with a coach helped them get better at managing conflict when it inevitably arises. If you're looking for more tips to improve the way that you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving through to interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork

Yeah, we do now.

Yes, we have been working a lot with what's her last name, Erskine, Shona Erskine, who is like she works with like performers but also athletes and stuff like that. I saw her speak at an artist's wellbeing thing in Perth a long time ago, and I was like, I really want to work with you. And so we've had a bunch of sessions.

With her about really talking about, like.

You know, how to make decisions as two people, because three people can make a decision much easier than two, because two people we can just get to loger.

One can be out voted.

Yeah, when you're fifty to fifty, how can you do that?

And we have over the last couple of years started to introduce that third voice in as well, in order to be able to like what's shown as kind of given us is a language in order to be able to kind of talk about talk about conflict, why we went into that conflict space, what the conflict was actually about, and then some methods to sort of shortcut those stages of conflict to go like we can just jump over that hurdle and get straight into what we're actually talking about,

That languages from her about that what creativity is. You're often what's the third one? This three, isn't it?

Yeah?

Bending, breaking or blending.

Yeah, And that's that's the only three. There's only three ways to have an idea, which is to blend, to break an existing one or bend, break, blend, blend, yeah, which.

Is really so we we have a lot.

Of We've also realized that we're very visual in the way that we have ideas.

So often when.

We think we're disagreeing, we're agreeing, but we're expressing ourselves from other side. So we use a lot of visual aids. It sounds weird, but it actually works so well. And it's the one thing that was really bad during COVID is when you've got two people and a sheet of paper in front of you and a pen just and you just sort of like draw an ideogram of like or picture of like whatever you're where you're at It can often, really, it can often. Really, it just helps

We have a third thing. We've created that third thing. I think that's really good.

And you know, picture paints a thousand words, it's very easy to understand something.

We have a lot of different modes though.

Matt is very dyslexic and very visual, and I'm really into words. I like to read and write, and I really like the script. Matt doesn't really care about script so much.

So yeah, and.

We from just kind of having those different modes, we've also learned that and you can tell we are talk over the top of each other a lot. And so what we've learned from Shiner as well, I think is a really which is a really important thing, is that it's just a really simple trick, which is if somebody's talking and they're talking out their idea, you just write on a piece of paper your idea and don't let them have their time, and then you can look at that thing on the piece of paper at the end

That's when we're working.

But the most important thing I've ever learned about collaboration is that you don't have to agree on everything. You only have to agree on enough.

That's it, and not everything is not.

Every idea that you have is for that collaboration as well, which is another thing that we learned from shown it. She's like, there's you know, a Venn diagram of things that you're both interested in and.

Being very the list is where they cross over.

Yeah, and the clearer you are on those things, the faster the creative project moves forward.

I like the idea of what you're saying. With visualizing the the thing, I imagine it also makes it less personal because then it's like this object, this written object in front of you, as opposed to criticizing the person that's come up with the idea. Does that have that impact?

You have to really also work out where their joy comes from the person you're working with.

I think too, like.

We off, we have these continuums on our wall and these magnets in between them, and one of them is creative like blank page delivery. So the continuum is between hitting send on an email where you've composed a manuscript and you hit send, and then the other one is like the blank page before you've even started. And what we realized is that Matt has a lot of joy from going it could be anything this blank page. Wow, ah, I feel so free. I'm having so many ideas. I

And then have an understand that in every every creative project, there is a time where that will where one of those being on that continuum you are at this end or at the other end, and then actually like formalizing the agreement of right there, we are not exploded. We are not We're in we're harnessing this idea. Now we're not exploding it anymore. So we've moved into the harness phase, which is we're not adding new ideas to it unless they're solving a problem that gets us closer.

Yeah, how hard is it to make that call?

That's awful.

I hate it.

And yeah, but that's because that's making a decision. Matt doesn't like doing that. Whereas if you say, walk out your room and you say, hey, have an idea, and when you come back, Matt will have had an idea. If you say to me, have an idea and close the door, I'll go mad in that room. If you say, have an idea about an elephant on holiday with a blue hat, on, I'm like cool, I can now have an ideas like, oh, does it have to be a blue hat?

What about if it's a horse.

I had an idea about a monkey at work and he's wearing a yellow.

Hat, and I like to delay the decision as long as possible.

Then I've got this other idea about the about the blue elephant, but he's not on holiday.

But I think I think that yeah, and I will also then in the rohearsal room, go, oh, do you remember four weeks ago we had that idea where that goes?

Now, like I.

Sort of hold that I can hold all of those things that we've thrown away along the way and bring them in at the last minute and go what about that? And then occasionally it it pays off being able to go, oh, hang on, yeah, like we had that thing and now we've got wacky I'm waving inflatable tube guys in the show, and.

Yeah, now I want to unpack one of your sketches.

Oh my goodness, I'm Batman.

That okay, Christian. When I say action, I just want you to look down the barrel of the camera and say the last line of the film, which is I'm Batman.

Okay, I can do that, all.

Right, and then we'll all be finished. Yep, cool, okay, cool, brilliant, Okay, okay, lights please sound rolling camera action, Christian.

I'm Batman cart Cool. That's good.

Just we'll do it one more time. Okay, can't you remember your lines? I'm Batman, yep, cool, keep rolling please cool action. I'm Batman cart what Christian? The line is just listen carefully, I'm Batman. Okay, he's a man, but he's also a bat Batman.

Sure all right, because.

At the moment you're saying batman.

Oh okay, sorry, okay, okay, rolling.

Action.

I'm batman cart I think that's good.

No, it's not good because you're saying batman Batman's yeah, yeah, that's what you're saying batman. And the line is batman.

Man, say batman Batman. Now say batman Batman.

There's a different there's a different keep it rolling camera, yep action.

I'm bat Man. I got confused. Sorry, we'll do it again.

I'm okay, I'm batman man.

Oh wait, what is it card? Look you had it there. You said I'm batman, but then they changed my mind. Then you said man.

Okay, sorry, we might can we do any No, it.

Was too close together. Okay, I'm gonna have to do it again. Just just just take a breath. Yeah.

Now, I know that when you say a woman or night watchman or you know, Anchorman or all these things, you say men man like onwardsman yep, But now we're saying Batman because we want to emphasize the man man the Batman.

Yeah. Okay, okay, man, Okay, I'm Batman.

You can do it.

Okay, I can do it.

Ready, take your time. Action.

I'm Batman, cat I'm Batman, I'm Batman.

I'm Batman.

Okay, I'm playing.

I'm just trying to give you some options. I'm bat Sorry.

The thing is, he's not James Brown.

Yeah he could be James Brown.

No he's not, because we've just made three movies where he's not James Brown.

I just think that that would be a very brave choice.

I know you do.

And this is the last shot, and everyone's very tired. Sorry, so just think about it. Just say, I'm Batman, you're Batman, you're a Batman. No, I'm not Batman.

I'm not Batman.

I'm not bad.

You're doing you know what the line is I do. You're Batman? What, I'm just okay, action.

You're Batman. No, it's not your I'm okay, he's Batman. No it's not he's he's you're Batman.

Who's Batman? You are I'm Batman? Oh, I'm Batman.

We got it.

Can't so tell me how how did the idea for that sketch come about?

I can't remember. End of podcast.

I was at a party with a friend and.

We were explaining to this this guy that John Batman was oh was It was me and Andy Burford and we were explaining to this guy that John Batman was one of the colonizers of the land that we're on.

And uh uh.

For some reason, Andy just kept pronouncing Batman, Batman, Batman, and I was like, it is John Batman, yeah, but he kept calling him Batman.

Yeah, but that's what it is. Batman.

No, Batman, No, his name's not. And that's exactly how it happened. Like it's exactly how it happened.

And then the movie was coming out at the same at the same time, and I said to Rich, Okay, so the premise of this sketch is.

I don't know how to say Batman and that.

Recording is an improvisation of the first take the sketch.

Wow is it? Wow?

Yeah?

It really is, so it's edited.

That's the first thing we recorded. Yeah, it's the first first track. It's the first like audio sketch we ever recorded. The first take of the first thing we ever recorded was that one. Yeah, it's the most popular thing we've ever done.

Yeah.

Basically, what is the work that goes into everything that happens up to the first take?

Right, We've changed the way we work a little bit since then. I think it's about what's the problem and how do we create more problems? And how does one person try and solve the problem in a funny way?

Yeah? And how does some And my job is always to keep the problem going as long as I can, yes, and then reject all of Rich's suggestions.

The fun thing about it and the mode for us is who's on first? You know that very famous screed by Abbot and Costello. That is our mode, which I don't, be honest, don't even find that funny, But I enjoy the artistry of creating this like hermetically sealed joke. And you're not adding any new information really, and the person who's seen. And the funny the thing is actually what is it is funny when the guy I come remember with out Costello and he's like, I'm gonna smack.

You in the mouth if he's.

The funny thing is how his frustration builds and builds and builds.

Yeah, and again it's a benign thing. It's a weird thing for someone person to be getting really upset at another person about And we translated that sketch to stage and then we from there. We kind of we had to hit a We had to reshape it so that it had more of a more of a shape to it. So I needed to build more and we needed to We needed to Richard. We need for rich to get really really mad and then just have this moment where he gathered himself.

You just say I'm Batman and then we'll all be finished.

Yeah.

And then Matt Sack I am trying to like that I think is key for me. And we've realized this is Matt is not trying to conf.

I'm always trying to help.

He's trying to help and that.

But he's just too stupid to be able to help. And the question, the deeper question for me is Why does this character rich? Why does he stay with this guy like he's so frustrated.

This is something I got actually from talking to Frank Woodley about clowns and about double acts, and it's like he thinks that the power of the double act and the reason why there's a straight guy funny guy, and that's endured through you know, you have it from the Greek comedy all the way through is that you're seeing the internal what's normally internal externalized. So we all have

Now you're not allowed to have the bread. I told you, you know you'll you'll get gas if we have the bread.

We have those debates and then seeing them outside is just sort of so I don't know, almost therapeutic for someone to see. And and it also allows us to see that horrible frustration we experience in traffic or whatever.

You know, Oh my god, I'm going to call you if you cut my ass.

But then if you do it on stage, you're like, oh, yeah, I did want to kill him, you know.

Oh, Matt is really frustrating. Yeah, so I don't know if that.

I think what's funny with what is that in the preparation that's not in the preparation.

This is the philosophy of why of why why we think double? How do we prepare it? It's about finding the problems.

Yeah, And and also with that, I think one of the reasons why that sketch it works is that Batman is so serious. It's such a pose and super mask like.

But he doesn't know how to say it, but he.

Doesn't even know.

But also that it's I'm I'm just casually doing it like and then in an instant turn. And so I think it's that contrast. And when we put it on stage.

Yeah, you physically turn to the audience and go, I'm Batman. Yeah.

But the line before that on stage is I go look at my look at our swishy my cape is that's right, swishy my cape. It's the rich goes Matt, you're Batman, and I go, sorry.

Look at us, swishy my CAPI is. So that is funny. I forgot about that.

And that's the thing that we've kind of It's also another thing that we picked up from from the workshops that we did with Tim Ferguson was like playing contrast as well, like upping, so simple, upping the contrast as much as you can. What's the biggest distance we can get between Matt and Batman? Uh?

And yeah, something Batman would never say.

Never say that, but it's a perfectly normal thing for me to say on stage.

And to be fair, Batman's cake is very swishy, so it's not wrong.

Also, kids know Batman and they know they know Batman.

But I think I think the reason I love that is it's just like a man is so serious. The movies are like three hours long and it's all about like.

Well, I like the one where he used to do the tuc yeah, the old Batman.

For people that want to consume more of the list is, what is the best way for people to do that?

Oh, you could go to our website www. Dot the lists dot com or www dot the Listies dot net dot org, dot e d U dot au, forward slash slash pound sign tilled.

We've also we've also got all of our albums are on Spotify and we've got yeah.

Two, We've got that books out and you can see our TV show on iView And did I mention the podcast?

There's a podcast. It's called The Listies Make You loll.

Rich and Matt. It has been an absolute delight. I feel like I'm so familiar with your voices through the many, many times I listen to you every week in the car with my daughter Frankie. So thank you so much for sharing what goes on behind the scene.

It's actually a really amazing thing to get to be able to talk about it, isn't it Rich Like.

It sure is? Yeah, No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having us.

One of the things that has stuck with me since doing this interview is how the list is thought about keeping kids' attentions, because really adults are not all that different. I mean, keeping people captivated during a zoom meeting that you're running can be quite challenging. So what might your equivalent of a genre change or a major prop change fee when you're trying to hold people's attention, especially when doing things in the virtual world where there are so

See you next time.