They're not by the way. All brain surgeons and nurses, these people coming in. Pretty much all of this is a lie, of course. There is simply no evidence. There is no evidence whatsoever. If someone thinks I'm far right for stating a fact, then they're just an idiot. You appear to be on the side of the terrorists. The people who think... they're the centrist dads. They're actually extremists. They are f***ing insane.
I don't think we should be mutilating children's bodies or giving them drugs. Trans women are women. I'm never going to say that. I refuse. I'm with JK. I'll have the top bunk in the cell. Is defending herself against growing accusations of transphobia. Do you think the woke stuff went... hand in hand with the demise of our civilization.
Yeah, I agree with the likes of Douglas Murray and others who talk about that being the issue of trans, the issue of net zero, immigration, all that. If you say the wrong thing, you're told bigot, racist, transphobe, climate denier. That is a lie. Owen Jones at one point walked off a show you were on. What can you tell me about him? He would sell his grandmother for one like on Twitter. But storming off a TV set. Tommy Robinson. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Well...
What about someone like, who I'm interviewing tomorrow, Katie Hopkins? She made, and that's what you did. Is she just a contrarian? Are there people who are just contrarian? Do you? Hello, lovely listeners. We've now got hundreds of thousands of listeners across audio platforms. I just wanted to kindly ask you to make sure you're actually following on Spotify or Apple or whatever platform you use. It makes a big difference to those statistics and growth.
the podcast and makes it go out into the world. Thank you. And thank you for listening to and supporting this podcast. Julie Hartley Brewer, welcome to the show. Thank you very much indeed, delighted to be here. What a pleasure. Tell me about the immigration statistics. What are the statistics? What are the stats? How is that going to rise in the next few years? Why is this extremely concerning for people who live in this country? Okay, they're completely mad. They're absolutely...
staggering they are huge huge huge extra numbers of people arriving this country and the crucial thing to know about them is they're completely and utterly wrong this is the really amazing thing staggering numbers we're basically going to have the same population as france in in uh you know more than just
over a decade even though France is pretty much two and a half times the size of the country of us you can see there might be a problem there right but also we can add an extra five million people to the country by 2032 that's what we had a few years ago Almost entirely. Do a man and a woman, that extra five million people are going to be immigrants. Oh.
But that's wrong. No, net immigrants. OK, so there's going to be more people than the five million coming in. We're going to have lots of Brits who are going to leave as well. And here's the crucial thing. These are just projections from the Office for National Statistics. And if you look at their projection for the same sort of year last year, it's already wildly increased. They've been wrong by a long way.
Every year they've made projections for the last 10, 20 years. Oh, and they always get it wrong in exactly the same direction. So we know it's going to be an awful lot more than they say. And I suppose the question I want to know is, who agreed to this? I don't remember this coming up in a vote. I don't remember ever as the people say, you know what I think we need? More people coming to live in this country.
I don't think we ever agree to that. I think we've expressly said at pretty much every election, oh, and I think in a referendum as well, which... covered a lot of this stuff, that we didn't want to have a large number of more immigrants. I also wonder if anyone's done any planning about where these people are going to live, where their kids are going to go to school. Maybe they might need health treatment at some point. They're not, by the way.
all brain surgeons and nurses, these people coming in. I also love to know where we're going to get the water from and the gas electricity from, the parking spaces, the bums on seats on buses. I mean...
Where are we going to get all of this infrastructure from for these people? It's quite clear to me that our great and our good, our experts, our first-class civil service, our brilliant politicians, haven't given a... thought to any of this and we know that because they didn't think about it before the last population explosion either it is i get i said use the word before staggering it is absolutely staggering have you noticed
something happening to the word immigration or the conversation around immigration whereby I saw a couple of videos in the last few days I saw Obama five six years ago saying we're going to deport the immigrants we're going to get well you know and that's gone Jordan Peterson and then even Hillary Clinton from years ago like we will not let more people in and now that's seen as like a far right crazed thing what's happened
in the last few years. I think it's always been far. How come Obama was able to say it? This is the thing. Anyone sensible realises, for a start, you're deporting illegal migrants. We actually have such a lunatic Labour government. Most of the cabinet...
aren't really sure they think we should deport illegal migrants. I mean, that's the reality. I remember interviewing Yvette Cooper, the now Home Secretary, years back. I think she was on the Home Affairs Select Committee at the time. And, well, give me a number. How many, you know, how many...
should we have? What should the number be? Oh, I can't give that. Well, to the nearest 10,000. Okay, to the nearest 100,000. I said, all right, to the nearest million. You know, I mean, genuinely, they don't have a number for that. Look, I've been called a bigger and...
of whatever for God knows how many years just for voting for Brexit, for goodness sake, because so many people on the Remain side became obsessed with the idea that that was about us all being xenophobic bigots and not liking people coming to the country. Of course. Ignoring the fact that that was about limiting people coming from the EU, largely white people, by the way. I've never understood what that argument was based on. But there's no doubt at all that, you know, the great and the good.
and the experts, academia, British media, pretty much every politician for years and years, they have been sold on this idea. Immigration is good. Immigration brings diversity. Diversity is of itself a good thing. sold the package that the immigrant population is propping up our NHS, propping up our social care, and also they are a net contributor to our economy. I mean, what's not to like? I mean...
Pretty much all of this is a lie, of course. It's simply not true. It's not borne out by the facts. And when you tell millions of Brits who go, I don't think that's true. for years and years, you know, we're having that emperor's new clothes moment where everyone's going,
Yeah, the emperor really doesn't have any clothes on. You haven't got a leg to stand on. So I think it's quite the opposite from you. I don't think talking about immigration has suddenly become far right. I think for the first time, it's now become acceptable even for... There's politicians who think they're nice people.
I think it's acceptable for them for the first time to talk about it. Things are changing. Because I saw reform, these polls and things always change depending on who, you know. But there's one that I think Matt Goodwin shared that suggested reform were ahead in the polls. Do they actually have a real chance? Oh, if you look, you know, some of polls of polls, you know, reform are routinely now around the 24, 25 point mark. Labour, if you know, collapsed down to that mark.
the Lib Dems way behind and Tories behind. Yeah, I think they can go on to that sport. Now, whether that translates into... Similar numbers of MPs is a different matter because of our first-past-the-post system. But I think it's really important that reform are talking about these subjects. They are making it safe to talk about these subjects for a lot of people who've been too wary over the years. I mean, not people like me. I'll always talk.
about stuff i think's important the things i know are true i don't care if someone thinks i'm if someone thinks i'm you know, far right for stating a fact, then they're just an idiot. And I don't care about their opinion, is my view. Well, going back to what you're saying about Brexit, is it possible that it was still about...
immigration, immigrants and immigrants from the Middle East, only because it was the only way people could protest vote. There was no other way to do it. They've been saying for years, we don't want more of this kind of immigration. And now we've been given a vote about leaving the EU. Yes, we don't want sort of European... technocrats getting involved in our lives but really this is a way to say to the government
I mean, immigration was a factor. It was about uncontrolled mass immigration of people being able to come on. And as it was actually a couple of years later after Brexit, when they'd asked everyone to sign in, basically, are you from the EU? Would you like to stay? You need to register. And apparently the officials thought we had... had three and a half million EU nationals living in Britain. Don't say we had five and a half.
They didn't know. So when they're saying, oh, don't worry, you pretty little heads. You don't know about two million people living in the country using, you know, needing homes, using schools, using public services. Oh, don't worry. You know, it was all our figment.
of our imagination. No, I don't think it was. The polling on Brexit, and by the way, we are speaking today on the fifth anniversary of the day we actually left the EU. Oh, wow. A magnificent day. I always celebrate. And one, frankly, that I think should be.
a national holiday every year if it was up to me. But the polling was really clear at the time. Most people voted... about national sovereignty, about democratic accountability, about us having a say over what our politicians did and holding them to account of being able, crucially, to boot them out when they don't do what we've asked them to do.
just did with the Tory party and as I think people do with the Labour Party this time around I don't think it was I think immigration was a part of it but it was only a part of it to the extent that politicians have done something they've opened the gates they've had mass uncontrolled immigration but they never asked us and when we raised concerns they said you know you're a bigot and they ignored us and and now we've got the problem of huge numbers of people
in our country who have not assimilated, who are not net contributors, who have no intention of becoming part of the British community. don't share British values, often don't even speak the English language. We've imported a lot of problems as long as it was a lot of very good people working very hard who want to make a...
good life for themselves and their families here in Britain. But the politicians refuse to talk about it. Why should the majority of the immigrants adapt? They've been given no incentive, have they?
Well, they should because it'd be the right and moral thing to do. And, you know, reasons why I don't go and live in Saudi Arabia, you know, because I don't want to adapt to their values. I abhor their values. I think they're immoral. I don't want to be a second class citizen. I don't want to live somewhere.
You know, any country in the Middle East where being gay is a crime. You know, these are not the values that I espouse. I don't live in a regime that's not democratic. So I don't go and live in those countries. If you do choose to come and live in Britain, I expect you to learn the language. Yeah, and that, by the way, goes for... Brits living in the Costa del Sol as well. Go and learn Spanish. That was my next point. No, but it's like,
We talk about a tiny minority of people, you know, in their dotage, you know, go and learn Spanish, have some respect for where you're living. But if you come to this country, I think you absolutely should be required to learn English. I don't think there should be any translation services in the G.
or anywhere else. If you don't speak English yet, bring someone who does. You pay for it or get your son to do it. I don't care. It's not my problem. I'm not paying for it. And I think you should adapt to the values. And if you don't like our values... then maybe don't live here. I don't think we should adapt one scintilla because I think that British values...
are actually some of the best in the world. I think they're some of the most moral and most advanced. We used to be one of the most liberal, tolerant countries in the world. We have helped save Europe from fascism. We have been on the right side. I think, of history so many times. And I don't think we should be forced to change because someone has chosen to make their life in our country. I think it's weird that anyone should suggest otherwise. It is a bit weird. And I was saying...
you before, I lived in Argentina for six years, I never thought that anyone should have to put things in English for me. That would be a weird thing. And a lot of English people... Arrogance, yes. And everyone would go mad about English arrogance then, wouldn't they? And there's a lot of English people living there.
And there's an English history there. There's English ancestry there. There's all sorts of things there. But nobody would suggest ever that in Argentina people should be speaking English, adapting to Englishness and having tea. Well, the menu should be in English. And that said, if you go somewhere very touristy, almost...
always there will be an English version. There'll be people who speak English. You know, it's the international language of business and of tourism. It pisses off the locals and rightly so. It pisses off the Spanish. But that's something they choose to do. And if you want to have a lot of people who don't speak your language or you have a language that isn't particularly... common language, then English has now become the second language of the world.
And therefore that would be useful. But I do think that's a very different thing. And that is a choice of a business or a restaurant to do that. No one's forcing people to do that. And like I say, the Spanish are up in arms about it. They're not happy. They're introducing new...
policies to stop Brits buying up homes over there. They're not happy. No one's calling them racist for it. Well, what's so interesting, I mean, no one cares about Switzerland. You can't go and just buy a home in Switzerland if you're not a Swiss national. I mean, but isn't it funny? This is not an unusual law. I think in Thailand, you can't buy.
You can't be the legal owner of a home if you're a foreigner. I think it has to go through a company, a network, and ultimately a Thai person, I believe, has to be involved. This is not unusual. My friend James Esses sponsored this show. I'm amazed by what he's doing. One of the few therapists providing therapy without wokeness. He created a directory of over 70 mental health professionals not affected by the woke mind virus.
health support that's neutral non-judgmental identity politics free evidence-based and pro free speech if you're struggling with anxiety addiction loss relationships cancel culture or feeling low go to just link in the description, where you'll also find James's private practice for therapy with the man himself. You've said that we're about to get in the next...
A couple of years, I think it was five more Birminghams of immigration. In terms of five million people. Well, again, Birmingham's population on the last sentence is 1.1 million people. Who knows what it really is? It's probably about 1.5 million. knows and given the scale of immigration in recent years and particularly from some of the countries where we have a large population of people of that heritage from you know from Indian subcontinent and elsewhere it's very likely
Yeah, but that's basically what we're going to import. But we're not building another five Birmingham's worth of infrastructure. We're not building another five Birmingham's of gas storage or nuclear power stations or reservoirs or... or extra trains. We were not building any of that. Not building those hospitals. I mean, so again, where do those people go?
I don't even know. It really feels like we're screwed. I feel quite pessimistic about the whole thing. So do I. And I hate that. I am naturally a very much a, oh, look, glass half full person. But I really am. I'm one of those people that if I was in a car accident and I broke... my leg i would be a thank god i
just broke my leg person. You know, other people go, oh, I can't, you know, I would always look on the bright side. And I've always been optimistic and I'm incredibly proud of my country and my fellow citizens. And I think, you know, we, I hate people who do down our country. I think, you know, we can moan about the weather.
or the buses being late or something. But fundamentally, I think we're a good country. We have a really long and proud history. And this is the most pessimistic I've ever... ever been and I wouldn't be surprised if so many of our younger generation would just say you know what
I'm done. I'm going to go live abroad. Do you think it could be a case of us getting a bit older? Because that is a stereotype, isn't it? You get a bit older and you become grouchy. It's not as good as it used to be. No, I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life. I mean, my life is wonderful. I just can see that there are just so few opportunities and the pessimistic outlook that we actually have, even from politicians, from business, it just doesn't feel right now.
that we are a can-do, go-get, let's-do-it-together nation. I think one of the reasons why a lot of people love lockdown.
apart from being paid to sit at home and do bugger all and people got to see their kids for a while I think a lot of people they liked the feeling of togetherness they liked the feeling that oh we were all in it together and people volunteering and you know I'll go and look after the lady two doors down who I've never spoken to before but I'll go and check she needs shopping and things like that I think people really felt oh we're together we're sharing something
And actually, that was lovely. Look, there were, I mean, 99% of it was awful, but there were little scintillas of...
And I think a lot of people really enjoyed that and yearned for that. And I don't feel that right now. I feel like it's every man for himself. It feels like, you know, people are just scrabbling around. People are struggling. People are... really struggling to pay their bills they're really struggling to you know to look after their kids they're struggling um you know to to to get the supermarket and i just think people just feeling that day-to-day pressure for more and they don't see
there's light at the end of the tunnel. And that's a really dangerous place for a country to be in. Yeah, I think so too. Do you find yourself on your show thinking, okay, well, what today? And it's like, well, I mean... you know immigration islamism well sometimes i mean look we always have a laugh i've got great guests on we've got a great production team and and we've got such a wonderful relationship with the audience you know i've been on air since 2016 uh talk and um
Sometimes, you know, there'll be some doom and gloom story and I'll just turn to the audience and say, you know, happy Monday, everybody. And we're all in it together. But the thing that we share, I think my audience and my regular guests and myself is... We are optimists. We know things can be better. We know.
You know, hey, things can only get better. Who sang that, you know? But they can. And it just takes, I just want us to have, you know, the will and the self-belief and the, you know, this thing that- Americanism. Well, you know, I find it amazing that someone from-
my political background is looking at Trump and going, yeah, baby, go for it. The feeling of can do and get it done and I won't take no for an answer. You know, yeah, federal employee, come back to the office. If you're not here next Thursday, you will continue. Consider you to have handed in your notice or we'll sack you. Ta-da! I mean, Whitehall in Britain, cabinet ministers can't even get.
their staff to turn up more than three days, well, even three days a week before they threaten strikes. I mean, we're just, we're just a, our nation, our nation is basically described now by this gesture. That's not enough. That's not enough. We need more. We're a proud nation. We should be doing better. I'm going to put that in the trailer. Watch this if you want. Do you wish Trump wouldn't do the capital letters tweets? That's the only thing for me.
Yeah, it's like your aging parents who just don't realize that caps lock is on. I don't like many of his tweets. I don't like a lot of the things that he says. I'm not a Trump fan, but I've made it really clear well before November that I would have voted for him.
this time round. I'd voted for him if it was up against Biden or any of the other people who'd been mentioned as possible contenders, and certainly against Kamala Harris, who I think was an appalling candidate and is genuinely a useless human being. And the stuff he said he was going to do, he's trying to actually do and is actually already doing some of it. When it comes, I mean, the border control.
Kickstarting the economy, dumping all the net zero green crap, as I believe a politician here once called it. Getting rid of the woke stuff. I mean, yeah, on that alone, tick, tick, tick, tick.
Do you think the woke stuff went hand in hand with the demise of our civilization? Yeah, I agree with, you know, the likes of Douglas Murray and others who talk about that being, you know, end of, yeah, sort of... end of empire type stuff, you know, when life is good enough that we've got to worry about is completely fallacious nonsense about children being born in the wrong body, then yeah, I think you are in end of days territory.
And is that how it sort of, it seems like our side, I think this is what I was getting at before, it's like we seem to be on immigration, Islamism, and trans. How are those three linked? Well, and Net Zero, I think, is another big one as well. Which I've not really dipped my feet into. Oh, you should. It's genuinely... You need the ability of a six-year-old in maths to be able to see that this is... proper emperor's nuclear stuff. I might struggle with that.
I don't think it is just those issues. I think there are a lot more issues. I think freedom of speech is what unites all of those things. I think the key thing is I'm happy to debate anyone or anything. I have often changed my mind on major issues. I am a floating voter. I'm not. tied to any political party i voted for many different parties okay not the green party i'm not insane but other than that um so i'm quite happy to change my mind always happy to debate with people i've got friends from
vastly different ends of the political spectrum. My family on Christmas Day will have a huge big... blaring, shouting row about some big political debate and go, oh, who wants Christmas pudding? And it's not an issue. So I've got no issue with any of that. I think it's weird that someone would fall out of you over how you voted in a EU referendum. I think that's weird. You must have fallen out with some people, though, some friends. Oh, no, they fell out with me.
If someone thinks because I voted for Brexit that they can't be friends with me anymore, then we didn't have a friendship. I mean, I think that's weird. I've got no issue, you know. Perfectly good reasons to have voted Remain. I voted Remain. I'm not sure I would now, but I did at the time. But the key thing for me is that I'm not scared of debate on anything. There's no topic that I wouldn't be willing to debate with somebody.
to learn more of their view and perhaps change my view. If they can persuade me that actually they've got the facts and figures and the arguments on their side, I would change my mind. Say, why would I ever be scared of debating somebody who disagreed with me? The issue of trans, the issue of net zero, immigration, all that, all of those big topics have all, what unites them is that if you say the wrong thing...
You're told bigot, racist, transphobe, climate denier. There's always an insult. And it is an insult that is meant to shut you up. and close it down. These are all the topics for years you weren't allowed to talk about on the BBC. Still can't. You're still can't. I'm pretty sure I've been blackballed from a couple of the shows I used to do regularly because of my views on climate change and net zero because apparently...
Ofcom of the view, this is settled science. I mean, Ofcom, need to read a few more books. But you can't go on like normal channels now, can you? Or can you? Do you still go on all those? I used to do quite a lot with BBC Question Time. I turned down quite a lot, mainly because, I mean...
You're the pantomime villain, though, if you're on. Is that fair? I don't mind being the pantomime villain. I'm quite happy to be booed by people. I don't care. It really doesn't bother me. It's just whether it's something that I could be bothered to...
you know travel miles to for no fee you know it's almost yeah and it's almost pointless though because well who can you convince when everyone's booing at you and i don't think that's where the debate is anyway anymore i think it's going on elsewhere i think as donald trump proved but but i think the key thing that knights people would say, oh, I often get accused of, you know, you're just deliberately contrarian or, you know, but actually...
Not at all. It's about saying, well, hold on a minute. Why is everyone shutting down the debate on this topic? What are they afraid of? And when you actually do debate it and when you look at the facts and when you look at the evidence, you can go, lockdown, another one. People, you go, well, hold on a minute. This doesn't happen.
add up you haven't got any evidence for this why are you saying this why are you shutting down debate and the only people refusing to debate this stuff are the people who who are on the other side and I think that is what unites all of us. And that all comes down to freedom of speech, the right to debate, the right to dissent, the right to be a heretic. And the right to enjoy debate, I suppose. It's quite fun, isn't it?
I love it. That feeling you mentioned before with your family and all of that, I love that. I've got a few friends like that and many who are not like that, unfortunately, but some friends who you have these big arguments and it's like almost shouting at each other. And as you say, then you go,
all right, should we go out? Should we go watch TV? Should we do something? But it's not personal. But that's it. A lot of people can't do that. They have to get personal. I mean, the abuse I get. I mean, mostly, I mean, it used to be over Brexit and immigration and then it's over trans issues. as a women's rights campaigner, climate denier, you know, all of that stuff.
But I mean, now it's you vile zio hag. Oh, hag. Hag is one of those wonderful words you get called if you're a woman who says the wrong things. By the left, typically. So the left of equality. Yes, it's always. sexist term because it's you know if you're if you're if you're supporting the people who got invaded and massacred and taken hostage that makes you a vile zara hag
Yeah, guilty as charged. But the hag thing from the left, who are supposed to be all about equality and rights and those things, the presumption is if you did weren't a Zionist or whatever, then you'd just be a pro-Palestine hag. Either way, you are a hag.
Yeah, but the same as J.K. Rowling, you know, hero of the left, you know, labor donor, being called a witch. But that's the thing. That's just the language. It's like when they sort of say, you know, when I talk about trans issues, you get online, you know, like you're a man. You don't, by the way. I don't need anyone. I mean, I took a couple of looks. You did just in case. You did double check. He's looked at the labels. But for me, I'm just sort of...
I mean, oh, oh, oh, nice man. I'm desperately, desperately seeking your affirmation online as you sit in your mother's basement. I mean, sort of. But I'm not even offended by it. I'm just sort of... What point did you think you were making? You think I'm ugly? Oh, I shall cry myself to sleep. I mean, it's just... It's just weird. I've had that. People put photos up of me and they dissect and they put like lines to like bits of me that look like they might be feminine.
And they go, look, he's basically a woman because of the trans stuff. They say, look, he doesn't have the jawbone. He doesn't have this and that. because they're trying to eradicate truth, I suppose. And they don't realise they're proving my point, which is that I could look as much like a woman as I want. I'm a six foot four man with stubble, but fine. I could look like a woman, but I'm not one.
But it's perplexing, isn't it? What I love is that they think you're offended by it. Yeah, that'll get them. I mean, I love it when I get these insults. I'm sitting there thinking. Well, I'm drinking a cocktail on a lovely chair next to my gorgeous husband in a lovely five-star hotel in Mexico. Carry on. Carry on. I think I'll go back to the Swim Up bar and get another one. just i mean or i'm sitting on the sofa of my home with my lovely friends and family and i'm literally just like i'm
I'm utterly perplexed about people who will send insults to people who they've never met because they disagree with them on an issue. I think it's really strange and quite sad, really. Yeah, yeah. like oh you've made a mess of your life and again you're thinking mate you're in your basement somewhere as I always say you know say what you like about this guy you know the wife around his mum's basement works really well
You were saying before that people say you're just a contrarian or whatever. What about someone like, who I'm interviewing tomorrow, Katie Hopkins? Is she just a contrary? Are there people who are just contrary? No, I think she's a nasty racist bigot. Do you? Yeah, I've got no time for her at all. No, sorry. I literally don't. I don't know. I don't know why she thinks a lot of things she does. I've had a lot of...
Insults. Well, actually, but quite funny. I do like a funny insult. Was it, what was someone called me once? Was it Waitrose Katie Hopkins? Oh. That's... Which she wouldn't like, because I think she would see herself as not like a lowbrow or lower class. Yeah, I'm probably highbrow. But I really hate that. A, I'm a journalist. I've been a journalist for 30 years.
you know, got qualifications, it worked in a local paperwork, you know, sat and done the court cases and I've done all of that stuff. I'm a, I am a, you know, journalists aren't professionals, but you know, I am a journalist, been doing this for many, many years. I research what I do, I say what I think, I interview people. politicians and important people and things. Gady Hopkins was a, you know, is a sort of minor celeb who, you know, found fame on a TV entertainment show.
With all due respect, you know, I don't like the comparison. Oh, two women who are considered to be on the right. That's not as sexist as you can get, as far as I'm concerned. I don't have much time. There's so much evidence of her now on tape saying things which I just think are utterly vile.
about people of different races. And I'm sorry, don't want anything to do with it. I mean, that's not a, I won't debate, I probably debate her. I just don't think that someone, I think by definition, if you... if you don't like people because of the colour of their skin, I don't think your opinions are really worth listening to. I'm not going to try and shut you up or censor you. I would never do that. I just...
don't think that you're someone I need to spend time worrying about. Yeah. Is this one of the fundamental problems that we're facing, is that anyone who seems to disagree with us, let's call them the woke, for lack of a better word, seems to think that anyone to the right of them... is akin to the views of Katie Hopkins. Yes. So they think we're all that. They think Joe Rogan is that, which he's not. They think all... And there's Marjorie Taylor Greene as an American... But she's mad. Yeah.
She says things that are literally insane. So I hear Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell going on, that's what they will, or Emily Maitlis, they will sort of talk about that's what they'll go on about as if that's the alternative to them. And we're sitting there going, yeah, but... But I mean, Rogan mocks those people as well. We all do. Yeah.
But that's that simplistic, but again, that's playing the ball, not the man. I'm sorry, playing the man, not the ball, isn't it? The other way around. It's that whole sort of, I'm right, so therefore I'm a good person. And if you don't agree with me, you must be a bad person. So we clump your... in together um and but again what i most love about a lot of those people is essentially the funny thing is they think we're extremists of some kind or another
Whereas actually their views are extremist views on every single count. We should impoverish both the third world and British people to chase after some sort of green god of climate change. zero targets. Yeah, literally de-industrialising the country and making us poorer.
That would largely be considered an extremist view. Oh, I believe it used to be what we called Marxism, for goodness sake. Telling, you know, teenage boys and girls who were probably gay and maybe the more autistic that they should cuddle.
off their breasts or their testicles and take drugs that would affect their fertility and their ability to ever achieve sexual orgasm and change their bodies and lives forever because they're born in the wrong body yeah most people through history would have considered that an extremist view as opposed to people like me going.
I don't think we should be mutilating children's bodies or giving them drugs. Given that we're told for a lot of the kids, at 12, we don't even think you should be getting a full paracetamol when you've got a headache. I'm not quite sure that these drugs are a good idea. When it comes to... things like, yeah, let's open the border and let's literally import millions and millions of people who have no intention of adapting to our country and sharing our values.
That would be considered an extreme view in any other time. Let's lock everybody in their homes for 23 hours a day for a disease which, by the way, even in March 2020, we knew largely only killed people. over the age of 80. And certainly didn't kill any healthy child at all. Let's tell people you can't leave your home or carry on your job unless you agree to take a mandated vaccine that you don't need for a disease you've already had.
That's an extremist view. So again and again and again, the people who think they're the centrist dads. They're actually extremists. They are the dangerous people. You know what? They are the weirdos. We're the normal people all standing around going, do you think this is a good idea? I'm thinking of Maitlis. I'm thinking of Rory Stewart, Alistair Campbell, Ian Hislop.
And the more you, as you're saying that, I thought, they are fucking insane. Yeah. Like, God. And what's really frustrating, I mean, Ian Histop is not, but you and I are both atheists. And there were a lot of atheists on that side. And atheists used to always say that Carl Sagan saying was extraordinary claims. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which seems very reasonable to me. And they seem to have completely abandoned that.
I mean, and I think they probably... To go to the right dinner parties and be thought of as a nice person. But that's good. They shut down debate. They didn't look at evidence. And when people presented evidence, like the cash review on the trans issue. So Dr. Dicast carries out this review, you know, former president...
President of the Royal College of Paediatrics. Years looking at it. All the evidence from around the world about these buberty blockers and the like. And shows, look, actually there's no evidence they make children any happier. Most of these children are actually gay or lesbian. Not many of them are vulnerable. They've been sexually abused. They are autistic. Nearly all of them have another mental health problem or learning disability or something.
And everyone went, oh, oh, well, in that case, oh, okay, now we know that we should stop it. That evidence was all freely available. That had been available. That was the stuff that, you know, people like me were pointing out for years. But they chose not to see it.
a refusal to look at evidence for something you are, that is being introduced as a new idea or something that you are sure of. Again, there are lots of things I've changed my mind on because I'm like, oh, I thought, I mean, I was quite a nanny state kind of person. I was kind of...
tony blair on a lot of issues um many of us were yeah and then i realized the evidence didn't stack up you know and again the idea that well if people are poor the answer is probably to give them more benefits and help them no it turns out that doesn't help them actually what would help them is
changing the lifestyle, going to work. You know, there's lots of evidence that actually a lot of the policies that I used to support don't really work very well. So I changed my mind. Based on evidence. But if you're not going to look for the evidence... ever converse with people who have a different view from you and not just not converse not only you choosing not to listen to them you could block someone on Twitter if you want to that's fine I tend to only block someone who's
very, very boring or very abusive or trying to sell me Bitcoin. That's kind of the three groups. Other than that, I don't. I'm like, I don't, you know, get in touch. I don't mind. I'll often reply if I'm, you know, sitting on the loo, I've got nothing better to do. There's an image for everybody. tweeting you but these people they not only don't want to listen they want to stop you from saying it to other people and that's again we used to think that was an extremist view
It's a really strange thing because I got in an argument the other day with Patreon. I don't even use Patreon really anymore, but I've got a few people who didn't move over to Substack that's still on Patreon, so I have to keep... Putting things up. And they deleted my podcast episode. What did you do wrong? What was your thought crime? It was with Andrew Doyle. And I apparently, I quoted Hitchens about the barbarians and the gate. You know that expression? The barbarians.
What is it? They never... You're going to have to hone up on your quote. I'm terrible. I can't even remember like three words. That's my biggest weakness. I can never do speeches. I have to just go. I have to just say whatever. If I'm on stage, just say stuff. The Barbarian, something about a gay... This won't be able to go on Patreon now.
It would be your own multicultural authorities who let them in. They never break down. So many people are angry now going, you've screwed that quote up. And that was it. They said it was hate speech that I'd called immigrants barbarians.
Yeah, again, now this is one of the key things also on the left and on the thought police, you know, side of things is they don't understand nuance. No. They don't understand something. They don't understand jokes. We know that's for sure. Sarcasm, irony, but also the notion that you...
could quote someone, you could agree or disagree with them, but nevertheless it's a valid quote. I was pushing the whole etymology of barbarians, just means somebody not belonging to the great civilisations. There was the waiting for barbarians that Hitchens was alluding to in that speech.
It's a literary... But also, I mean, talking about people who want to come and live in your country who don't share your values, who don't share civilised values, I would say, of the civilised Western liberal values of women's equality. your right to have a religion, to leave a religion, to not have a religion, to marry someone out of your religion, to be gay, to be bisexual, to wear what you want, to show your cleavage or your face if you want to.
Yeah, yeah, funnily enough, I would think that people who don't agree with a lot of those values to be uncivilised. Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with saying that. But I think you're absolutely spot on about Katie Hopkins. When you have people comparing... people from different races to animals and those kind of insects and swarms and those that's when it is for me that's not very nice to do
Yeah, but I would always, I'm someone when I see a quote about something like that from somebody, I want to know the context. Were they quoting someone? What was the context? Were they responding to a specific question? I've seen the context, right? If that is your view, you've been asked about it since, right, okay. Unless there's, I don't know, unless you want some weird antihistamines and you want to apologise. And again, not thought police, Albert, if you didn't actually think that.
Why did you say it? And if someone thinks that, I'm not sure they're, again, I think one of the key things about racism, I mean, sexism, racism, I mean, the main issue about that is it betrays you as a stupid person. Because if you've genuinely got a fear or hatred of people for those things, I think you're just a bit dumb. I think there probably is a correlation, isn't there, between racist views and low IQ.
Well, there are lots of, no, I've met lots of very, there are lots of very clever people who've got, you know, great degrees and who have horrible views about people of different races. And they're not, you wouldn't think that they would, but there is a, but it's a stupid view to have. I mean, it's just because it's not evidence-based. Having views that aren't evidence-based, I think is weird.
Yeah, no, I totally agree. But they would say it is, and that's when they start quoting a million different things about the Jews. They'd probably get the quotes right. Yeah, they probably do. Well, with Hitchens, I think at the time in the Andrew Doyle one, I probably had it in front of me. It's so mad because I was alluding to... Hitchens what he had said he was alluding to a JM curtsy
Waiting for the Barbarians, which was also based on a poem from 1903, which was called Waiting for the Barbarians, some Greek guy. Okay, but the key thing is, you know what your mistake was here? You were like, looking back in history, you were quoting things from a different time. Now, you all know that, you know,
Zero happened at some point. I don't know when. Was it a year ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? And at that point, we all had to have exactly the same views and think exactly the same things as we think today. And it's so difficult to keep up, isn't it?
Do you think Keir Starmer is an authoritarian, or is he authoritarian? Oh, 100%. 100%. He's got that glazed eyes thing. You can tell even when he's being interviewed and he's asked a question and he doesn't like. You can see the tetchiness, can't you? The sort of... And it's very much a, I'm director of public prosecutions. No one asked me this. And now he's a politician. It's a bit, how dare these people ask me questions in this way? And if you push him.
He's incredibly arrogant, but what's so interesting, again, very clever book learning, kind of clever, but he doesn't think very well on his feet. You can see that everything has to be scripted. And he needs that autocue. He struggles without having rote learned his answer. He's not light on his feet, which I think is going to be his biggest downfall. Tony Blair, God, I was a political editor when Tony Blair was in power.
You could agree or disagree with him. The guy is sharp as tax. I mean, the guy got out of every single scrape. Toughest week for Tony Blair yet. How will he survive? Walks away unscathed every time. Brilliant speaker. Obama, a very good speaker.
You don't have to agree with them. But highly intelligent people who... who's you know who are agile their brains are agile whereas i think i think his time was one of those people that would have you know he's one of these people sort of rote learned and got his top grades at school and rote learned the next thing and he's done a job which involves got a lot of rote learning and um yeah and and yeah
And he doesn't think outside the box. And the trouble is, being prime minister, you have to make like, you know, 20 decisions a day on 20 different things. And you've just got to be able to do it. I can't stand him. The more I look at him, because I think that he would have been someone who at school or university, if I went, I would have not gotten on with him at all. That is that steely, glazed eyes and just the book learning thing.
a chat with him once at the Labour Party conference he's never agreed to be interviewed by me I've chatted with him at various events when you're at some highfalutin thing and then they kind of have to talk to you But he wouldn't talk to me publicly. But I was chatting to him at a mirror party at the Labour Party conference one time, one of the times I wasn't banned from it. And just ended up chatting next to him. And it was a little bit wild. And I had to get up at 4.30 to go and do.
my breakfast show and it was quite late and we were chatting for about half an hour and he said I got on quite well with him I thought it was quite nice and I did say to him you know the funny thing is I said you've probably got more in common with me than most of the people in here because it's a very lefty sort of party I hadn't realised at that point thought he was kind of Blairite figure as he portrayed himself a lot of times actually he's far more left-wing than he portrays
Peter Hitchens was speaking about this recently, because I don't know his whole history, but apparently he's even further left of Corbyn, Hitchens said. In lots of ways. Again, people talk about how, oh, yes, well, obviously he served in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, but he wouldn't really have wanted, you know, wink, wink, him to get elected.
No, because he wanted himself to be elected. But they thought Corbyn was stupid. They didn't actually disapprove of his policies. They just thought he was stupid, which he is. Not the brightest man in the book. Him and his brother. Yeah. But no, I think he's going to be a problem. I think Kirstom is going to be a very big problem because he's a very, very, he has a very high opinion of himself. I think he's a very arrogant man. His response to...
you know, free gear, you know, free gear care. Just for those who don't know, he was getting loads of free stuff, wasn't he? Yeah, from his mate, you know, Lord Ali. But, you know, free tickets to the Arsenal matches, free tickets to concerts, Taylor Swift, free tickets. It's free suits, free day. Tacky.
tacky tacky tacky at a time when British people are struggling to pay the gas bill and you've got a new five grand suit from your rich mate and the arrogance with which he reacted to the criticism of this was I thought very telling and I think it's going to come back to what
to. Yeah, how did he respond in that moment? Well, he was just sort of like, I've done nothing wrong, you know, no problem. And it took quite a few weeks before he agreed he wouldn't take any more. He's still taking freebies at the Arsenal, at the Emirates Stadium. So who's giving him tickets? because apparently it's a security risk. I mean, we've seen prime ministers before sitting, Rishi Sunak.
would go to the football and wouldn't sit in a box. And he could afford the whole stadium, for goodness sake. But not Sky TV. Yeah, it's just a load of rubbish. That Sky TV thing, I think he should have... owned it a bit. When they try and do that, I think he should say, I was from a middle class family, we were fine. Does that make me less able to run the country?
Yeah, I mean, again, I don't think we should penalise people for A, being rich, because if it was that easy, you know, wow, we'd all be multimillionaires, wouldn't we? And we're not. But also don't penalise people because their parents sent them to a posh school. I don't understand. I went to a comp. I just don't understand. I went to posh school. But why are you blaming somebody because they were sent by their parents? It wasn't their choice. I judge people by what they say.
and what they do by the choices they make and not the choices that have been you know made for them i had sky tv We didn't have Sky TV. You should have come over. I think I might have been too old for Sky TV to have been a thing. I doubt TV was a thing. Tommy Robinson, what did you think of it? I broke into my daughter a few years back. I remember saying about when I grew up, there were only three channels. And she looked at me.
Like, you're clearly making that up and just left the room. I remember sitting around for Channel 5. So are we having a four Yorkshire contest now? I don't know. I always wonder with the show how much of the... references to explain but look up the four Yorkshiremen then everybody I love that we grew up in a puddle I love that Tommy Robinson yeah what are your thoughts
Well, I mean, you know, when I have to go and talk to security at my office, because Tommy Robinson has written a tweet saying something about, you know, I want to talk to you and confront you. Again, I don't get too involved. That's something he claims I've said at some point.
point about him I try and ignore these people because I don't I don't think they're that relevant to the conversation and I don't think they help the conversation again I don't want him silenced I don't want him censored I think that Tommy Robinson actually played an important role in talking about a lot of the issues that other people weren't for a number of years. And he was right.
about a lot of things. And he was talking about the grooming gangs. He didn't expose the grooming gangs. That was done by the whistleblowers and actually by brave journalists as well. So that's simply not true. He kept it going. And that's a public service. However, again, I think that some of his personal behaviour and views... do make him beyond the pale for most people. That said, he is...
playing a blinder with a lot of people in terms of his claims of being this sort of victim of censorship when he's behind bars for very clear reasons. He was taken to court for a libel because he horribly libeled a young Muslim boy. He was taken to court. He was told not to repeat the libel. He kept repeating it again and again and again and again. Played a video to the whole of Trafalgar Square, put it online again and again and again and again. Went to court a number of times.
He knew what he was doing. He would say it was true, though, wouldn't he? OK, well, he can say it's true, but he hasn't proved that in court. He had to provide evidence that what he was saying was true. It was not true, which is why he was unable to prove it in court. He was told you cannot repeat that.
continued repeating that. And if someone did that about you or your family, I think you'd expect the state to step in at that point. Absolutely. And it wasn't like he mentioned it again once. I mean, repeatedly. on a huge grand scale. He knew what he was doing and he knew what the penalty would be. He's playing the martyr at this point in my view, but I understand that he makes much more money in donations when he's behind bars. I wonder whether that's a coincidence.
I think maybe the last interview of him before he was locked up. I went out to Benidorm and spent a couple of days with him. I was really interested to just get to know. And he does really think a lot of this. He's, again, a very intelligent man. Very highly intelligent. Very articulate. Yeah. He believes the things that the court said were not provable or proved in his documentary. But again, you see, I mean, you know, I could believe that, you know...
Mr Bloggs over there is a paedophile, but I'm not allowed to go around saying it publicly. without having proof of it. Because we don't want people saying stuff about us that's untrue that people can't prove. And that's why we have those laws. And I'm sorry. It's an important law, isn't it? And it is one of the moments where free speech is not absolute because you can't defend people.
a free speech absolutist. You shouldn't be allowed to say things that are untrue that are horribly damaging about people. I wonder if the issue with the Tommy Robinson thing is that people need certainty and they need people to worship. And a lot of... a lot of my viewers will absolutely hate him and a lot of viewers will absolutely love him like you can't do anything wrong. He's a human being.
And people are flawed, yeah. But also people play different roles. So, you know, again, I said, I think a lot, he's talked, there's a lot of stuff that he has said over the years, which is very, very true and is very worthwhile and a lot of stuff he's done. However, you know, he also knows, you know,
with his role with the EDL. And even since then, there was that point when, of course, you know, he was that big rapprochement with a, you know, with, you know, a charity promoting, you know, sort of moderate Islam. And, you know, that was a really interesting time. But some of his behaviour...
since suggests that, you know, that there are some question marks still. I'm going to go that far. You know, the thing about him is that, you know, let's call him by his real name, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, not Tommy Robinson, is that... he definitely gets policed in a different way. A hundred percent. We know there's two-tier policing. Anybody who thinks he isn't paying attention. And I think that, I think the authorities, you know.
would like to just lock him away forever. Yeah, I don't think that's a conspiracy theory. I'd love to be rid of him. But I also think that he damages a lot of the causes that actually are significant that he espouses. by his association with them. It makes it harder for other people who are more mainstream. Now, is that his fault? You know, who knows? But I just...
I think he's a difficult character, put it that way. Speaking of difficult characters, Owen Jones at one point walked off a show you were on. What can you tell me about him? I'm just amazed that he's still a thing. I think more and more extreme and sort of, you know, off. Well, got to do that for the likes. I mean, it became very clear to me. I was doing Sky News. This is years back, doing a newspaper review with Owen. And we were very friendly. In fact, that very evening, we'd be...
chatting about when his then partner and my husband and I were all going to have dinner together. I mean, you know, we were very friendly. I'd certainly been very friendly to him that evening trying to sober him up because he arrived rather drunk for doing television. I kept getting caught.
for him and was basically choosing all the newspapers to do. Does he have issues with alcohol? I've no idea. I just know that that evening he said to me, I'm not... he told me it was very clear I didn't make that public at the time because I didn't think it was relevant to what he said but he basically insisted that the news presenter and I at the time it was after a horrific shooting in a gay nightclub in Miami
I think, or certainly in Florida. And he insisted that we use the same language as him and insisted it was a homophobic attack. And we both said, well, it was a horrible attack and gay men were the victims, but we don't necessarily know the motive was. And it turned out, interestingly, that the actual killer... was actually a gay man himself.
So actually, you know, we were rather proved right. But he stormed off the set because we refused. I remember saying, I'll use the language I want to use and you use the language you want to use, but you don't get to tell me what I say. And he then tried to get the presenter sacked. And the abuse that I was getting, I mean, he basically, just horrific. And what amazed me was the number of people who got in touch with me who, from the left.
colleagues of his at The Guardian and elsewhere who got in touch to tell me what an unpleasant human being he is and how it was one person put, you know, I mean, he would, you know, sell his grandmother for one like on Twitter. I've had nothing to do with him ever since. I've repeatedly been invited on shows saying, oh, you're on with Euron Jones.
say, oh, no, thank you, I won't come. And I've never said, don't invite him. I've always said, no, no, I'll drop out. That's fine, I don't want to do it. I won't debate with somebody who, he called me a bigger, he called me, I won't debate with someone. he called he said we were homophobic
I mean, I was campaigning for gay marriage at the time. I think I can't imagine why anyone would think I was homophobic. I mean, certainly didn't think I was 10 minutes before we went on air. When I'm inviting you and your boyfriend for dinner. Yeah, me and my big homophobia, you know.
So my view was I don't want anything to do with him. And again, I'm not trying to silence him. I just don't want, I don't, I don't have anything to do with people who are that unpleasant. And there is nothing that he has done or said since. Not that I look at his tweets. Don't care. But when things do pop up in my timeline, I'm never surprised by his wrong take on everything. Most of all, Israel. and his willingness to defend the actions of not the Palestinian people, of Hamas.
the terrorist organisation, the raping, murdering, massacring Hamas, who by the way also terrorise their own people, I find, I'd like to say, surprising. But I think he knows no depths of moral depravity that he will not plumb to to get a like on social media or applause at a platform in a public place.
I'm an atheist, but I'm sure there's a special place in hell for people like that. You know what? I think I'm probably naive, but I adhere probably too stringently to Hanlon's razor. They don't attribute. What is it?
Fuck, not another one. Another way. Don't attribute something to malice that could be explained by stupidity or ignorance. I feel looking at him that he really believes, that it's not just for tweets and like, unless that's happening sort of subconsciously. I think it's subconscious. Yeah, but he doesn't think he's right. wrong. I mean, he looks like he's about to cry when he's talking. Oh, obviously, yes. He's an ideologue. Yes, but he...
But this is a man who talks about how we get violence against women and girls and how we must believe women and in all of this. And then when women are literally... gang raped and mutilated and tortured by gangs of Hamas soldiers on October 7th. And people are telling their stories, people who witnessed it, when the people who had to collect the bodies, when they talk about the horrific injuries, he insists, well...
We don't have the evidence, but we're supposed to believe the actress who got slapped on the arse by some actor. Believe every woman. Oh, apart from the Jewish women. No. It's disgusting. It's depraved. Well, it even goes back to the argument, the debate you had on air where he was saying it was a gay, a homophobic attack. He didn't have the evidence. But in that moment, he was happy to go with it. But I don't mind him using those words. He can use those words. But you don't...
get to tell everyone else what to say as well 700 gps signed a letter to stop you saying what you wanted to say on an nhs question time or something yes it was an nhs conference they paid me though i sent them the invoice anyway on the basis that actually was no clause that I'd not breached any clause of the email contract.
Yes, it was a surprise. I was on holiday at the time. And then I was suddenly seeing these tweets. There were some campaigns that are by a bunch of lefty doctors. Remainery. It was interesting. It was quite funny how much it had got tied in with that. Basically saying they wouldn't attend this particular Royal College of Geek. conference I mean this is so many years ago now because I was going to be on one of the panels and they were going to give up their membership to the Royal College and
And there was just a load of fuss about it. And it was all over a tweet I had written in reply to somebody. And it was to do with Enoch Powell. Again, it's so long ago. But the tweet actually began with the words, something like, I don't... oh no, of course I don't agree with him. But, and it was, but again, but, and pointing out there's something that Enoch Powell was right about. It was to do with his prediction that there would be social unrest. It was a long Twitter thread, a conversation.
But it was to do with social unrest and community cohesion in the wake of mass immigration. And I was making, and someone was talking about, you know, power. And I said, yeah, but, you know, I don't agree with him on. But what was interesting, it kept being quoted, but they never included the first.
Oh, no. They literally, no one ever... So that's deliberate. Well, of course that's deliberate. Of course it's deliberate. I wrote a piece, I think, for the spectator or the... Yeah, I think the spectator, which I sort of... denounce them back. And I've said, if you don't want to have me at the conference, that's up to you fine, but you're still bloody well paying my fee, isn't it? 700 GPs, 700. Do you worry about going to the doctor? No.
There's an awful lot of GPs actually who complained about that and said how outrageous it was. But again, what's interesting is when Enoch Powell died...
I can remember someone saying to me, have you read his actual speech? Have you read it? I think most people haven't. If you actually read his speech, it's a very interesting speech. Now, a lot of the things that he's been criticised for are things that he claims in his speech are quotes from people. And the criticism is that they weren't quotes. he actually meant those things himself. That sort of seems to be where it is. But it was interesting when Enoch Powell died.
By the way, this is all way before my time. Tony Blair spoke about him, you know, what a great political figure of his time. You remember, he was considered to be this huge, huge political figure until, you know... Rivers of Blood speech ended his career. Yeah, I mean, again, you tend to get into trouble in this world for something someone has perceived that you've said, someone has misinterpreted or deliberately misinterpreted you've said, usually in a sort of a casual aside.
You know, it's not a book you've written or a thesis you've written or a speech you've made that you've thought about. And here are my considered arguments, X, Y, Z. And that's when they're trying to catch you. And that's what's so dishonest about.
That side, aha, aha, look, you said, you know. It's so frustrating that. I think there's something, just for humans, there's something really frustrating about that sort of willful misunderstanding. My wife, when we're watching movies or whatever, she... You know when that happens in movies, there's a misunderstanding? Yeah. Like the guy thought the woman, but it was actually she was with her brother or she turns the TV off. She goes, no.
Not doing it. Because it's so frustrating for humans to see that someone has been deliberately misinterpreting or unwillfully doing so as well. When it happens to you. Oh, I mean, a lot of people get very broken by these things. It just makes me angry. yeah i mean i know i know what i
I know the person I am. I know what's in my soul or what's in my heart. And I express myself, I think, very honestly and openly. And so when people say, oh, you know, you're racist, you're this, you're this, or transphobe, or whatever you're called, and you just think, I know I've never said anything of that sort. And I know I've never said it because I know I don't think it. I wasn't raised that way. I was raised in a very sort of liberal, you know, lefty household. I mean, you know.
If I'd ever expressed a view that was ever, you know, racist or bigoted or... or anything like that, my parents would be absolutely horrified. I mean, they would be, you know, you just wasn't. And so when you know yourself, but I think you have to have quite a strong character to, strong sense of your own self to.
cope with that. And whenever I see people who are sort of, quote, on my side, you know, of debate, who get those Twitter storms, those X storms, I always, A, I come out to bat for them, and B, I always say to them, Turn it off. Yeah. Turn it off. Literally, turn your phone off. Go and be with people who love you, who know you. And just, it feels like it's the biggest thing in the world for those sort of...
two days or three days, it's completely forgotten about by normal people until some guy in a podcast asks you about it. You know what I mean? No, but that's the thing. It is. And people don't realise that. Also, most people don't see it. Most people aren't. on X. And you actually go through, you know. Yeah, yeah. I'm the same. Look, you and I and many people in our space have received so much that you get desensitized. And then I find it strange when...
And a guest will say, oh, can you take that thing I said out of the podcast just in case? And I go, why do you care, mate? But I forget that for them it's the first time. I know the things I've said in this podcast that I will get abused for. But how much have you had already? I just don't care. Unless it is the straw that broke the camel's back and then we've just ruined you. But again, you can't live your life.
When I'm on the radio, look, we have Ofcom rules. And for years, for instance, like on the trans issue, I had to be so careful, you know, trans women are women. Well, I'm never going to say that. I refuse. I'm with JK. I'll have the top bunk in the cell. You know what I mean?
go to prison for that one. My husband and I remember at one point we were agreeing like, can we disagree things that I'm allowed to lose my job for? Because I'm just not prepared to say certain things. I'm not prepared. So what you'd say, you say, well, biological male.
Now, they can't get you for that. So you can't be accused of being transphobic for stating a biological fact like that. So you had to get around it. Maya Forstater's case, the court case, that actually made it, you could actually say, no, trans women aren't women. But there's an element where you do have to...
around sometimes the madness of the rules. Ofcom decided, you know, that climate change was settled science. I mean, insanely. Well, yeah, but net zero is a political policy. So we can debate that. So there's ways of working your way around things. but nevertheless, you know.
There are rules. I mean, I, in the last year, I had the most complained about show for the whole year, the whole biggest number of complaints to Ofcom. And it was like something like 17,500 complaints about an interview I did with a Palestinian. sort of political figure.
And I was accused of being racist because I questioned the fact that he, I thought he was talking down to me and being incredibly rude. And the clip that went out on Twitter didn't include the fact that the last five minutes he'd been... refusing to answer a simple question, talking over it, just being incredibly aggressive and rude. And I was, it was accused because I said, maybe you're not used to being asked questions by women. That's right.
and it was like that was obviously racist now i've said that to a number of men of many different Yeah. Ethnic backgrounds. I've been told that by a number of women. Exactly. But you, you, you know, I mean, I'm 56 years old. I'm old enough, nuggy enough to know when I'm being patronized by a sexist man. Okay. I mean, really? I was a, I knew when I was a barmaid at 18.
You know what I mean? Have you felt it the last hour? I mean, 100%. No, but that's the thing. And all these complaints, and it wasn't upheld. I was kind of given the benefit of the doubt. It's like, I would have thought that all the way. All the way. You know, he was rude to me first, but I'm like, you know, the idea that that's got something to do with race, when you're asking a man who's clearly patronising you. Yeah.
Yeah, it's insane. So what are you supposed to do? I'll be really careful how I'll ask questions next time. Shut it off. I'll be very careful speaking only to people from minority backgrounds now so as not to offend them. But if that was a white man that you'd said that to. I've definitely said that to white men in the same debates over Palestine, Palestinian people and Gaza. But no one complained about that.
Ah, it's insane. Where can people, I've got one more question for you, but where can people find all your shows and what? Oh, well, I mean, that sounded wrong. Obviously, I'm on air on talk. We have that foray on TV. We're on radio. We're on DB+. We're on... YouTube so I'm on air between 10am and 1pm every Monday to Thursday but also I've got my own YouTube page somewhere look it up I don't know how to find these things but yeah I'm rounding about I'm all over all over X on a regular basis
It's at Julia HB1. I've only got the one because someone else who's not even called Julia has Julia HB. Oh, that's annoying. I wasn't. I'm Andrew Gold underscore OK, because Andrew Gold was taken by someone who doesn't use Twitter. It's so frustrating, isn't it? Long-term. Yeah, if that's your biggest problem in your life. But anyway, yeah, do find me. And do feel free to send abuse. I mean, I'm used to it. Yeah, okay. We'll put your email address below as well. Who's a heretic you admire?
Do you know, I was thinking about this morning. So many. I mean, just so many people who've stood up on all the issues we've talked about. You know, I do think, you know, the Toby Youngs and the Brendan O'Neills and people like that who've spoken out and Maya Forstater and J.K. Rowling. But I've decided, actually, I'm going to go with Graham Linehan.
And one of the reasons why is a lot of people who got involved in a lot of debates where they ended up being the heretic and they've taken abuse and lost their jobs and things, they kind of had it forced on them. It sort of happened to them and then they fought back and very bravely and wonderfully and thank goodness they have. Or they are rich enough.
that they can afford to enter the battle and go, I don't care. I've written some of the biggest selling books in the world. I can afford to do this. Jordan Peterson. Yeah, exactly. And then there are some people who kind of... Choose the fight and when it starts hurting them, don't do what so many have done.
back down, apologise, you know, say, oh, I'm so sorry I got this wrong. And Graham Linehan epitomises that. Absolutely top comedy writer who just saw what was going on on the transition, particularly on women's rights and women's safety, and he... would not back down on it. He lost, you know, most of his career. He, you know, he lost all his friends on the left. He lost, you know, so much income. His family, his marriage, you know, was damaged and ruined by that.
And I think, you know, to be basically sort of unpersoned by pretty much everyone in your, especially your left-wing, nice, we aren't we all lovely, nice, lefty comedian world, I think must be really, really hard. But he did it anyway because he knew what he was fighting for was the right thing and was the truth. And I've met him a number of times and he's just a lovely, lovely, lovely man. And the fact that he had to live with the fact that the people he thought were really close friends.
dropped him like that for doing what he knew was right and for telling the truth and what they must also know was right, I think is incredibly brave. And I've just got huge admiration for him. That's a great heretic. We've lost him to the US now, unfortunately. We're getting back. He's been on this podcast twice as well. Because he's absolutely brilliant and wonderful. And he's been proved right on everything. Yeah, I think so.
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