Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kate. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way, because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying? Now let's get to the heart of the matter.
Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Heart of Dating Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. If you are a new listener, welcome, welcome, welcome. My name is Kate Warman. I've been running this podcast for four and a half years, and just recently I got engaged this past February. I'm getting married this August. And now my fiance, future husband, has been on the show as well. Consistently, his name is JJ Tomlin. And today we get to
welcome him back yet again. I'm so excited. You're going to hear a lot more from him. JJ actually has officially decided to serve Heart of Dating in a bigger way and specifically men. So I could not be more thrilled. We've wanted somebody to serve men more specifically through Heart of Dating for so long. And now we finally have that person. And it's not because I forced him into it. He genuinely feels called to serve single men. And it is
so cool. So today we are together talking about the topic. How do you know? How do you really know that you want to be with someone? And you know, we only really have one other episode on this topic. And so I'm really excited to dive in. And especially tell you JJ and I story, how did we really know? What do we recommend for other people? And we gave you the real deal. Okay, we don't sugarcoat it. We tell you that it was really tough. And
what we doubted and all the things. So this is going to be really, really good for you guys to listen to you because honestly, we have really pretty photos. But our story is not all sunshine rainbows butterflies. And it wasn't like we both knew in one moment. And then we are both on the same page. The how do you know decision was really tough. And it was different for both of us. So we're going to dive into that today. Hey, if you
are new here, I want to let you know that it means so much to us. If you'd be open to leaving us a review and ranking us, especially here on iTunes. If you're watching on YouTube, also it really helps to subscribe and then comment on our videos. Really, really helps us. And if you didn't know, we have a YouTube podcast. So you can literally watch me right now. I'm waving to you guys. And it's actually really fun. I think that we added the YouTube
podcast because you can see JJ and I interact. And I just think it makes it more exciting. Okay, guys, that's all for today without further ado. Let's get into this podcast. How do you really know? Hello, everybody. It's KJJ. What? I thought I'd change it up a little bit. Wow. You're feeling good after last week's episode. I'm sure. I think you guys liked it. You're feeling real confident over here. Yes. Are you trying to take it away? You're like about to beat your chest like, bo. Georgia
the jungle. J J J of the jungle. I do have a pretty good ape impression you've seen. I really like gorilla. I don't think we need that right now. The dogs really like it. Oh, they do that. Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah. Well, hey, guys, we are so excited for this episode because so many of you guys have actually asked for this specific episode.
And we have one episode on the podcast where we talk about this subject with my friend Ben Stewart, the author of single dating engaged married and incredible pastor of Passion City church DC. But we haven't really talked about it since then. And so today we're talking about how do you really know that you want to be with someone? How do you really know? How do you discern? And so we are just going to have a conversation about this because
J J and I are going to share a bit of our thoughts. We're going to share about what happened in our story. And it's going to be fun. Yeah, it's going to be great. I don't think our story is as cut and dry and as perfect as you might think by seeing a picture right of the engagement. So yeah, you would see a picture of the engagement. Be like, Oh, or the video. You're like, Oh my gosh. And I'm like, little do you know two weeks before I
was questioning everything. No joke. No seriously. Yeah, no seriously. So how do you really know? I think the first thing I want to start off by saying is, you know, dating when you go from the stages of single dating relationship engaged, we're talking now, you can use some of this to evaluate if you want to go from dating to a relationship. But obviously we are really speaking about for the person who like is in a relationship. So you could use it,
right? Honey, you can use some of this from dating to relationship. Yeah. And the framework is basically that this decision is spiritual as logistical. It's, you know, a compatibility. Like there's a lot of different factors. Yeah. And the spiritual equation is by far the most important. But it's not strictly spiritual. Like there is a lot of other factors factors for sure. And the first thing is is, you know, dating and relationship, those stages,
it's really an evaluation. You want to be evaluating somebody through time. That's why, okay, I'm just going to call out the people that meet and they get engaged in two months. And then they get married two months after that. I'm like, Holy smokes. You didn't have any time to evaluate at all unless in the rare circumstance you were friends with that
person for like half your life or you're like really, really close to them. If you like don't really know someone and you are like engaged after a few months, I'm just like, it works for some people. But more often than that, not that is not a wise decision. You're just, it's okay. And we've seen it work. We have a couple on a small group that it was what two weeks for them. I mean, they said they just knew. And here they are two years later,
they're figuring it out. The most important thing is you're just absorbing a lot of risk because you don't know what's under the hood of that car. Yeah. And Gary Thomas says it in one of my earliest episodes on the podcast, we talked about infatuation, but it has this shelf life for 12 to 18 months. And you really don't see the true colors of somebody until you have time with them. That's why we talked about an episode a few months ago
about, you know, boundaries and pace, great episode. Shout out. Go listen to that one. But pacing yourself through a relationship and an essence of evaluating somebody needs to happen through time. And I just want to talk about this evaluation thing really quickly. I think going into evaluating if somebody is a good potential partner for you, it, well,
weren't you going to say something, honey? I'm just going to like about the fact that we have a lot of people that are like looking for the diamond and the rough, the one, you know, the one person that is the one, the soulmate, like we often, that's what we base it off of. We're like, we need to find that one person. Yeah. Well, it was one of the first episodes I listened to with JP Procluda. And he said, and this is a really great one.
There's no such thing as the one. The only one that exists is the one that you choose. That's right. So if you think about that, it's pretty revolutionary because even when you're in that point of relationship, looking at engagement, you still have to preach that there is no such thing as the one. Like God has still given me full responsibility and full choice to choose who that one is. There might be some that he has highlighted some
that he is destined to be better than others. But at the end of the day, there was not one created to be the one for you. Yeah. It's not the Jerry McGuire. You complete me. It's the soulmate concept, which is by play dough back way back in the disay. Like that is a horrible concept. It said that there's like a soul gets split into two and then you're constantly searching your whole life, fine, looking for your second soul. And I've just, this reminds
me of the twin flame thing. Oh, yeah. There's a don't even listen to this podcast. But somebody told me about it. And then I was curious, but there's this whole concept of like twin flames, same thing as soulmate. And it is, it is not a healthy concept because, and if you're that person listening right now and you're new to this podcast or this the first time you're hearing us talk about this, I'm sorry to break it to you. Okay. Because there are a lot of pastors that
talk about finding your soulmate. And I would say Gary Thomas says this, let it be about finding your soulmate as an S O L E mate, somebody who you're walking in stride with for the glory of God. Not your soulmate depths of your S O U L because your soul can only be complete when you find this other soul that makes you complete. Like that's the actual definition and brew of the words
S O U L M A T A T E soulmate. And it's unhealthy. And if you have that concept of looking for the one in a soulmate, you are going to either marry the wrong one and be sorely disappointed or you're going to spend your life looking for something that may not even really exist to that standard. Yeah. And that was so good. Soulmate versus S O O E soulmate, the only one that you chose. And the reason why we exist is, you know, one of our foundational things that hearted dating is
there's a 50% divorce rate in the US. There's a higher thing. Is it? Well, we know. And we're telling it's really high. Well, that yeah, there's a whole reason behind that, which I will tell you about. But the divorce rate in the church mirrors the divorce rate in the world. And you're like, how the heck? How the heck? So our mission here is to equip and serve you guys so that you
guys go out and make the most effective wise decision about who that partner is. And it is truly someone that you can partner with in the kingdom for the rest of your life and that we're not going to turn into the 50% that's right. That's good. So, but one part of this, I think it's important is if you're unclear, so you don't want to look for somebody that's like pigeonhole somebody that's like, I have 50 things. I'm looking for the one my soulmate to complete me.
This person that's like perfectly destined for me. In that case, you are going to have a very, very, very tiny. You're looking for a needle in a haystack. You're looking for this person to be the perfect, you know, circular object for your little circular hole that you want to put them into. And you are going to have probably a long, very limiting list of what you're looking for. And so, there's a balance between not being that limiting and not having that mindset and also not knowing
what you're looking for. Because if you don't really know at all what you're looking for and what kind of a partner might be best suited for you, then you're going to, if you're unclear about the partner that is potentially better for you, you're going to be unclear when it comes down to making that decision. It's so true. Yeah. It's so true. You're not really going to have a map of what you desire and what you need and what you're looking for. Yeah. You're just kind of
wondering. Yeah. And so it's like, and guess what? You do find out more when you're dating that person, but it's so important to come in with your core values, which we've talked about. And actually just, you know, we're going to tell you that we actually have a free guide that is discovering your core values and non-negotiables. It's a really powerful free guide. You can get it at heart of dating.com forward slash resource. And then it's like at the top of the page there.
So go and check that out. It's a free guide. But that's going to help you sort through your core values, which we recommend a top two to three core values. And then you're non-negotiables. Yeah. I laughed because I had not done this until we got into a relationship, this exercise. Yeah. And I really wish that I did. It was it was really, really eye opening for me. And I've seen this game more popularity. And then there's a reason core values are super, super important for
you to know for yourself and what you're looking for. Yeah. So let's tell them a little bit about our story. Yeah. Well, reality is it kind of flip-flopped. Okay. So at first, JJ took longer to figure it out that he wanted to be with me. And then- To marry you. Yeah. To marry me. And then later on push come to shove, I started questioning everything at the very end. I was like, oh my gosh, wait a second engagement. Oh my gosh,
wait a second. And there was a lot that happened though we can get into. So first is JJ like slowing down, taking the time. Well, first is me pursuing her in the very beginning. And then she's the one who wanted to marry before I did. And then where did we go from there? And then we progressed once we got on the same page, once you were like, yeah, I want to move towards engagement, which was around the six-ish month mark, right? Yeah. But it was kind of slow even after that.
After like, yeah, let's move towards engagement. It was like, I'm like, okay, so what's that step? Like, what are we going to do? Like, what are we going to go to premarital? And you were like, I don't want to make any timeline until we go to premarital. That was your thing. Yeah. Yeah, it was. So I just want to clarify here. For me, I don't think this has been widely talked about,
but I just want to give permission and encourage you guys. When you get to the stage of relationship and you're considering marriage, it is absolutely okay and encouraged to go to premarital before you have made the decision to marry each other. I think it's so important. And I feel like there's a little bit of a connotation against it or there's a little bit of a eyebrow race. Like, why would you go to premarital and not know if you want to marry them or not? Well, that's kind of why you go to
premarital. Yeah. Like, this is our concept. And this is what I think is you answer a lot of hard questions in premarital. Why would you only want those questions to be answered once you already have a ring on your finger and are planning a wedding? Yeah. And probably put a lot of money down to your wedding. Because that point, you are like locked and loaded. I mean, you can still break it off, but like, there's a lot more writing on the line. It's even harder to say. Yeah, absolutely.
So whether I think the name is a little misleading, it probably should be pre-engagement counseling. Yeah. And that should be the term for it. And that's what it should be marketed for. Re-engagement counseling. It should be totally okay. Yeah. It's not couples therapy. And that already has like a connotation against it as well. Yeah. But if you're at the like the six month, eight month, ten month, you know, over a year mark, and you guys have been dating for a while,
you were in a serious relationship. Relation. It is totally lies and smart to go to something like pre-engagement counseling to really figure out, hey, these orange flags, these things that we've been struggling with, is it stuff that we can figure out together? Or is this not going to move, this is not going to budge, there's even more behind it than what I originally knew. And this is not going to work out. Like you're bringing in really, really wise counsel who can help you in
that decision at the end of the counseling. So I waited. Kate, Kate was like, let's do this. And I had to really push back on any timeline and really point towards like, I don't want to make this effective decision without going through pre-marital or pre-engagement counseling. Not because I
don't love you and I don't trust you. This is just the biggest decision we will ever make. Like and one thing that really stuck out to me is you've never really heard a couple look back retroactively and say, you know, we dated and took way too long and we were way too wise in making the decision if we arrived for each other. You never hear a couple, if they've dated for four
years, you know, and it's like one of those couples, yeah, that's a little long. But in general, you never hear a couple say, we dated way too long, we really, really made sure and we really regret that. But you do hear the opposite. Absolutely. Exactly. Absolutely. So you hear the opposite of like, we rushed into it and I wish we had taken some more time. I wish I had evaluated back to that word. I wish I had evaluated a little bit longer if this is really the right kingdom partner for me.
Absolutely. So I love, I just love the analogy of buying a house, especially if there's lots of other houses on the market. You're not crunch for time and you don't need a place right away. You can really go in that house. You can look at the foundation, other cracks, other termites, how's the roof, how's the structure has it been updated? Has this thing not been touched in 20 years? You know, like you can really take your time and make the evaluation. Like, is this the house
that I want to live in for the rest of my life? And so that's a, that's, so that's where I was. And so we went through pre engagement counseling and listen, up into that point, this is super important. I knew I wanted to spend a long time with Kate. I knew I could see her as my life partner, but making that decision is a totally separate decision. Yeah. At the, I would say for me at the four to six month timeline, that's when I knew that Kate was somebody that I absolutely
could marry and I had peace about. So the, the peace that rules your heart, the peace that surpasses knowledge and understanding, that's the peace I felt at the worst moments with Kate. And that's how I knew that that this is somebody I was supposed to be with and could be doing life with. Yeah. I felt peace and those times and moments were by the world standards, I absolutely should not have been feeling peace. Yeah. When it was really, really hard, I laugh when we talk about
the Gary Thomas 12 to eight month infatuation. Yeah. Because ours lasted about three months. Yeah. We were like out of infatuation really. And lasted about three to three and a half months. So that's why it's funny for me because we hit comes like a fast and we hit it hard. And so after that, even after we came out of those hard months, I still was not sure about the decision, but I was sure about her. And that is, that's kind
of ambiguous, but that's how I felt. Yeah. And so I had to push back. We had to have very candid conversations about her timeline versus mine. I had to really say, I know that's your timeline, but that's your timeline. And I can't adhere to it. I can't sign up for that timeline. I'm sorry. And we weren't in saying I love you at that point because we waited till I waited to say I love you until I got down on one knee because she had such a history of mencing. I love you. And then
not backing it up. I was not about to be another guy in that chapter saying I love you and then not backing it up. Yeah. So I waited. So we would have to say stuff like, I really, really, really really like you. But I just need more time to make this decision. And I really, I really commend Kate because she had to come to terms with that. That's a very hard thing to do to be patient and wait. But I would say when I made that decision, there was still inherently like a hint of risk
because right, there's no such thing as the one. It's the only the one that you choose. So there is that bit of a little bit of that jump. Like guys, I'm crazy about Kate. Like I could totally see her as my wife. Totally see her as a future mother of my kids. Totally see her as a lifetime partner to labor in the kingdom with. And even then I still had like, you know, a little bit of like
nervousness, you know, or down and that's totally okay. Like you don't have to be 1 million percent, you know, like blinders like make a decision, evaluate the risk, fuel the feelings, fuel the fear, fear, fill the doubt and those things. And did you feel also that the pre-engagement helped you solidify your choice? 1 million percent. Yeah. It was more because there's absence of red flags. Yeah. It was more because the absence of really shocking things in the closet. Yeah.
At that point, I didn't expect anything in the closet. I didn't have anything in my closet. Like we had worked through a lot. Yeah. But for me, there was that was like the absence of red flags, which was really amazing. And then getting counsel that her stuff and my stuff, like it was very solvable. And we had shown progress against it. And we continue to show progress against it. And when we, you know, when we shared our mission and everything and our core values in our life,
they are like, yeah, wow. Yeah. Absolutely. So we ended up doing the Simbus test, which we highly recommend. We'll talk more about that when we do an episode on engagement. We need to tell them all of that because that'll be later. Well, if you guys are in the relational engagement season, the Simbus test is something that you should absolutely look up. Yeah. And we'll tell you more about that in like a few episodes. But I wanted to tell you, I wanted to bring up just a few things to
keep in mind. And like things to consider. How do you know that you know? I think one really big deal is you have to think about it's not just, oh my gosh, like, do I, this kingdom partner? Yes, that's so important. You have to know who you are, what you're looking for, your purpose, your values. Those are important things. But also, this isn't just like a business relationship. You're not just trying to like be matched with somebody and marry anybody. It's like that single, that person
that comes up to you at church and he's like, you're single? I know a single person. Why don't you guys both date? And it's like, okay, wow, like we're not going to the point of saying every single person should then marry just another single person in none of the rest of it matters, right? A decently healthy single person marry another decently. No, that's how we're saying. There's another part to this because I do believe that God delights in the joy of our relationship and
the companionship of our relationship. And so a big deal is you have to ask yourself, do you like being around that person? Like, do you genuinely like them? And you know, song of Solomon, when you look at song as Solomon, like Solomon was so thrilled. And yeah, sure, sexually, physically, whatever. But more than just that, I think he was just thrilled to be with his wife. Like, he was just so excited to be with her and finally marry her. So there has to be an
excitement. You will see this person for the every day for the rest of your life. I sometimes think about that. And it is wild because we don't live together, you know, at the moment. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you're going to I'm going to see you every day. Wow. And Jage is like, I'm like, oh, but you know, I at the end of the day, I wouldn't want it any other way. It is scary. We'll talk about that later. But you have to ask yourself, do you really like hanging out
with this person? And it's more than physical attraction. It's the depth of your relationship. It's the safety in your relationship. It's your emotional connection, your spiritual connection. Do you just like them as a person? Like, do you like their your their friendship as well? That is so important. That's a big deal. Absolutely. And it and that takes time to to develop. Like,
if you just put two people in a room, Kate and I cannot be more different. But after the course of three months, six months, we still were not like clicking emotionally and spiritually all the time. Humor wise, nine months, like it really took us about a year of being around each other consistently for me to learn her style of communication, which she really, really appreciates how I can tailor my personality to really serve her and honor her and connect with her while still being myself.
Yeah. Same. And that's hard. Yeah. So that is like that absolutely takes effort. And if you do find somebody who you're like, you know, you just naturally hit it off and great for you. But for the majority of people, it will be a little bit of a little bit of work. Yeah. It will be a lot of work to be honest. So I want to speak really quickly to the girl who, you know, or guy who makes friends really quickly.
This was me. I would like meet with somebody and I would connect instantly and I'd be like, we're BFFs, we're going to be best friends. Oh my gosh. Like, I immediately move them into a very close tier of friendship. And I thought we were going to be besties. And I have done this and made this mistake several times in my life. Like, now you're my best friend. I've known them for a month. Okay. But guess what? Until I saw them through time, I realized, wow, this was all shiny and
sparkly on the outside. And our friendship isn't that strong. Actually, at the end of the day. And that's not always the case. But sometimes like, you think, oh, this person, we're going to be best friends. We love doing these together. We have such a connection, but we'll pull up. But really, like true friendship takes time to develop. It takes time to not only connect on fun life things and laugh, but also to trust and build safe space with that person. And all of those things are
are part of a really healthy quality friendship. We're not talking about just a friendship that you like to go out and drink wine with. You know, this is a friendship of like somebody you can go to at your worst. That's the kind of friend you want in your spouse. Yeah. So do you want to talk about the second big deal? Yeah. I like this one because, you know, coming off last week, I definitely heard back for some men. And I had a lot of responses. Yeah. I had a lot of responses.
But this does feed into number two, which is it has to be the man. A man's heart has to be ignited. Yeah. A man's heart has to be ignited in order to pursue towards marriage. Yeah. Because that desire to be container and to work through conflict no matter what, no matter how ugly it gets, no matter how bad it gets, the man has to be that container and able to handle it or else
there will be no relationship moving forward. Yeah. If you go into that with the what about me, and I'm being unbeated, treated unfairly in this conflict, this individual conflict, then you're going to have a really, really hard time resolving conflict and really coming to her to serve and protect and cherish. And I want to be really careful here because there were stories here of men feeling that ignition and pursuing for time and time and time and there was no
reciprocation. And I'm not talking about reciprocation. However, if there is a pattern of a long amount of time, like you are pursuing her, pursuing her pursuing and there's no reciprocation, like at all, then that's not a relationship that you need to be pursuing. Like it does take to the tango, but like if it's a one-sided effort from the beginning to the third day to the tenth day, then you need to one be able to communicate your needs and express that, hey,
I don't mind serving you. I actually enjoy it. I love XYZ about you. However, I have notice. And just to clarify, nothing I'd do for you, honey, is to receive back, but I have notice like there's not much reciprocation here. And there's a need of mine and name it, XYZ that I've noticed is not being felt. Is that something that you feel like you can deliver or mark or make, you know, important for you, you know? And that's, and if she says yes, and then continually does not
deliver or can't, then that's not a relationship that you need to be in. However, that is not where Kate and I were. And I'm going to get real with you guys. Kate, is that okay? Yeah. I was ignited to pursue Kate. Like date number three, four, five, six, like as we grew, like so did my affection and my ignition for her. And I had that desire that no matter how ugly, how bad it got, I was still going to pursue her. And I'm telling you, I'm sorry, honey, Kate was not showing up her best self.
Like people are like, oh, like the fourth month. Yeah. People are like, well, you guys seem perfect together. She seems like she really reciprocates like really well. I'm like, dude, I'm sorry. I love you, honey, but she was not showing up to that degree at some point. Yeah. Yeah. And that did not determine. And that's the reality. And there's other months where she was shown up much better than I was. So goes vice versa. Just to make sure I'm not picking on you. No, totally. But this is really,
really important. I was still ignited and had that desire to pursue her no matter what, no matter how bad the conflict was. And there was bad conflict at times. I was still ignited to pursue her to be successful, even if she was totally wrong. And I was right. It was not about being right. It was about being successful. I literally would call her a mentor. This would be, you know, and a bad fight. And yet listen, man, because his wife is kind of her mentor and he mentors me.
I'm like, listen, I got her hand in the cookie jar. She did X. She did Y. She did Z. Like, come get your girl. I'm tapping this one out because I'm finally right. And she's wrong. Like come help me Lord Jesus. And he goes, listen, man, I love you. That sounds really, really, really hard. And you're right. She might be acting crazy. But the crazy. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, she might be acting a little while. But he goes, do you want to be right?
Or do you want to be successful? Because I love you, man. But here's what you're going to have to do. You're going to have to hang up. You're going to have to ask Holy Spirit for God, the grace, God, the love. And then you're going to have to turn around, march back in that room and go love your woman. Yeah. I was like, what? What? Okay. So I did it. And that I was not getting
more reciprocation there. But I had that ignition and desire to serve, protect, cherish, make your feel safe and make your make the relationship successful. I want to speak to the other side for the person listening and being like, wait, like, but what if the person is really toxic? Because like, how do you know, right? Then it's like, how do you know where the line is? Because you're being treated really poorly. And this is a toxic
relationship, toxic person, really major toxic patterns. Because you could listen to that advice, JJ could just gave. And it could also go to the direction of your heart is ignited for this person. So that, so that means once they show other toxic behavior and they prove that they are very toxic, you stay no matter what. No, there is a line. There is a line. And that's where discernment comes in.
That's where you need to see not only where they are today, but like, and not the potential of what they're going to become, but like what are the, what's the direction they have been walking in their life? Are they committed to growth? Do they have a majorly strong accountability system? And that's where we really have leaned into our board of advisors. Like, can I trust?
JJ's board of advisors, board life of advisors. Can he trust my life board of advisors that I'm going to go to therapy that I'm going to see counsel that even when things are really horrible, especially in the season when I had depression, and I was not acting great. Like, can he trust that I am going to consistently learn and grow and better myself? Have I shown that pattern to him?
Because that's for the person listening who's like, oh, but what if if the person who is, quote, you are ignited for is showing up in a toxic way, you need to see what are their actions like outside of that situation? How are they? And not just saying I'm going to change, I'm going to do this. Are they actually doing it? Are they actually committed to being teachable, committed to growth? And are they actually growing? And where are they growing before you came? JJ's board of advisors.
In the more I look at dating, the more stories I hear, the more I just want caution you guys to never date in a silo. Yeah. If it's just you and the other person, you will never know if that person is toxic or if they are, got to eat with fruit, and this was just a bad moment. So never date in a silo always date with accountability and the counsel of wise people in your life. Because they will always give you the best feedback from a very neutral third party perspective.
So. So for our wise counsel, we had different people. And I think we go in deeper in our program school and dating about this. So we're not we're only going to touch on it like very lightly here. But you know, CS Lewis says those who have no direction will not have fellow travelers, which means you need to have deep friendships. You need to have direction in your life and people that are walking with you in your life. And so, you know, when you look at people in the Bible,
like even Paul, Paul had tons of deep friendships. He was a single person with deep friendships. And in order to make this decision, you also need people that understand what kind of person you're dating. Okay. This is really important because let's say I go to my good friend who has very little trauma in her past. Her husband has very little trauma in his past. And their relationship is seemingly very good. They fight very little like not that is perfect, but it's very
good. If I go to them and say, Hey, look at what's going on. My person I'm dating is really struggling with the avoidant stuff. They have some issues with their dad. They have this then the other. And like, I'm telling them what's coming up. They're going to be like, that seems really crazy. That seems really bad. Like, you know, because they can't relate to it at all. So you also want to make sure that you're seeking counsel from somebody who actually gets you, gets your past
and gets the situation that you're in. Yeah. Somebody who has similar relational experience. Yes. And has worked through it. Right. A godly couple who's proven that they've worked through it. Who can advise you? Because it's not fair. Like if J. Doe was to ask a guy friend of his about what was going on between us. And I'm struggling with depression. I'm struggling with anxious attachment, leaning. And this guy who has never dated or dealt with that with a woman or marry
his wife isn't like that at all. He's going to be like, that sounds cray cray. You better get out of there. Right? Oh, yeah. And now it's the opposite. I'm like, I text him and I give him a synopsis of what happened. He's like, Oh, yeah. He like goes back to his memory. He's like, been there. Done that. Here's what I did. Yeah. Here's what you do in the situation. I'm like, thanks. Like it literally is like three text messages. I'm like, okay, great. Who are you talking about?
I'm echo. Oh, okay. I was saying for a guy who is not like an echo. Yeah, I'm saying, but I have the opposite available. Oh, right. Yes. I can literally text the problem when I did wrong. Yes. How it went down. And he's like, yep, been there. Here's what you do. Exactly. Versus the opposite. A guy with no experience. I could text him and he'd be like, okay, wait, can you break that down one more time? She got angry that you wore a moveshirt to the gym. That is not, no. But this is so
big, you guys, it's big. You need to have, if you don't have a couple that gets you, your trauma, gets your relationship, you need to at least go to a counselor. You need some sort of mentor. You definitely need somebody who gets you your past and can understand the relational dynamic you're dealing with. And I have a great point here. Sometimes your family is not your wisest counsel.
Yes. And that's okay. Yep. Like I can definitely speak to that. My family, there's spiritual backgrounds and there's Christians in my family, but they do not have the relational relational experience to speak to my current relationship. And I just want to encourage you guys here. Are you ready? Because a lot of times family is involved with this decision. When the Bible says to honor your father and mother and to honor others, the Greek word there
means to give weight to. It means to give weight to it. It doesn't mean you have to obey or it's imperative that you listen to it and take it to heart. It means you give weight to it. So if you have people in your life that you're called to honor and like family and this decision, well, they can give their opinion. You give weight to it and then you make your own decision. So I hope that's encouraging for you guys. So good. And then the same. I love my family. They're
not the people I'm necessarily turning to to make wise discerning decisions. I will say my friends who are both married, Nika and Christian, my two made of honors, truly brought me back to center so many times towards the end because I know we said earlier, JJ took some time to figure it out. Well, the reality is that we lead that we hinted at is close to the to before he was getting going to be proposing, I started freaking out. I was like, this can't be it. I don't think I'm supposed
to marry this person. Like I was literally having all these thoughts. I even had a session with my counselor that like made me question everything. And two weeks before I was like considering and praying about if I should break up with him. So why? Yeah. But that I just want to say people will hear that me that, oh, no way. Look at you know what? And hindsight and what I would say to hearing that is good. I'm really, really happy that you did question it and that you process that.
And then just say, well, we have X amount of time together. I have to do this because we've been dating so long and it seems right. And I think it's like that is a really, really important pause for you guys listening. It is okay to question. It's okay to have doubt and it's okay to work through that. Yeah. You don't have to be one million percent about it every single day. Because I think that's and then because when you do experience that doubt or those questions,
you shame yourself or even having that doubt and those questions. Yeah. And you could be going to a situation that you shouldn't. Some of the doubt will is going to help you processing that is so important. It's going to help you confirm your decision one way or the other. Yes. It's going to help you say, wow, I'm really because what I was doing was I was looking at all of the parts, all of the reality. I was facing my fears of how different we were and we are and like saying,
can I do this for the rest of my life? Am I okay with that? Like if this is going to be my reality and I'm taking this person as they are, sure they're going to grow some, but I'm not dating him for his potential of what he might work through. I am dating this. I am going to marry this person in front of me. Am I okay with XYZ? And a lot of it came down to how different we are, how I'm way more type A and JJ's way more type B. And I was like, am I okay with that? Am I okay
with us being so severely different in that? And if you're on Maya and listening to that, would I rather marry somebody who thinks it's the right decision, but still harbors doubt, or would I marry somebody who's had all the doubt they worked through it and they're absolutely sure that they are going to choose me. Because the reality is that we are different and I did not have everything figured out on that day that I asked Kate to marry me and Kate didn't have everything.
But I knew the direction that she was heading. She knew the direction I was heading. And you are okay with that risk. That smaller amount of risk that this person is not perfect today, but they are pursuing perfection. Here are the signs. But there is inherently risk when you marry that person because you still don't truly know them to their being and you won't until you marry them. So you are marrying on the indicators of what you see in front of you on that day.
Isn't that good? Yeah. I hope that's really great because you work through that doubt. And did I have doubt? Yeah. I did. And I work through it. And I said, you know what? I feel it. I acknowledge it. Here's what I'm scared about. Here's what I'm fearful of. Am I okay assuming this risk? Marrying her and it doesn't work out how I think it she doesn't perfectly heal, transform the way that I want it. Am I okay? Absorbing that risk. And I was. I was totally okay with
it. I was more than okay with it. Yes, I am. Because there isn't there is going to always be a level of hardship, conflict and perfection. You're not like two perfect pieces coming together. Yeah. That isn't like, oh, wow, the puzzle pit, the piece that just perfectly fits. Like it's going to be like me, me, me, me, me, like it's going to be like clashing and it's not going to be perfect for any two couples, except for some people that very rarely are like just the don't look
at those people that you know are like, oh, look at it. Oh, my gosh, he just finishes my sentences. Right. Yeah. Well, if you've seen the movie Frozen, then you know that Prince Hans was not who he said thought you were going to be like, we finished each other sandwiches. That's what I was going to say. Right. Like no, that ended up being he was crazy, and evil, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So sometimes I mean, even those things that seem perfect, there's something sometimes on the inside.
But here's our here are some reasons not to stay. This is super important. Do not stay with somebody just because you've been with them for so long. Just because you have put in so much work. Okay. Be proud of yourself for how much you fought for that person. Be proud of yourself for fighting for love for really trying to make it work. Like, see that as a win, not as a waste of time. And you should not get married to someone just because it's been so long. And we've been through
so much. And like, I probably just should. Like, that is not a good reason. That reason is is made out of scarcity. As is the second reason I'm in a list, which go ahead. Well, the first one I just want to encourage you guys, economics 101, it's a sunk cost. However long you've been with them one day, one year, 10 years. Like, you have to find a way to
chop that off. And you did, viewed the decision as that day moving forward. Objectively, that day, and where you stay in with each other and moving forward, which would be for the rest of your life, is that somebody that you can partner with? It does not matter how long or how short you've been with them. If you are taking into account how long you've been with them, that time's gone. It's a sunk cost. Yeah. Don't let it cloud your judgment. Don't let it. And then the other reason not to stay
with someone is because you're scared that there's no one else out there for you. And you're scared that there's no one that's going to be like them because, you know, they got you. They love Disney just as much as you did or whatever. Like, that is a scarcity mentality. There are great people out there. Now you shouldn't just break it off with somebody because they aren't perfect. We've gone into that, right? But don't stay with somebody just because you're scared of starting over because
you're scared that nobody out there's, there's, this is good enough. Like, that's not a good reason to stay. And the last reason that you should not stay with someone is because you think you can fix them. You, that is codependency, that is looking at Mary potential and you're going to mesh yourself with them by putting yourself in the position of God by having to be their savior, having to be their therapist and counselor. And don't stay with somebody because you're like, well, I can make
them better. Oh, man, I'm speaking to myself on that one because I was so mean. And that's when I was questioning things with JJ because I had to face like, I have to really die to myself and not just constantly be seeking to change him, right? Like, I have to truly go into this knowing I accept him, I see all of these things and I accept it. Like, because I knew that it wouldn't be fair and it's not the right model of a relationship to just be trying to change somebody over and over and over
again. Yeah, it's not your responsibility. And would you rather something in that person change because you complained it into changing or because they went to God and God worked through them and changed it with them. It's good. Which one do you think is going to be more effective? Which one do you think it's going to produce fruit? Not resentment. And I just want to give a quote, a quick note here. So people often talk about you recreate the trauma of your childhood.
And that's what you find in your relationship. And that's totally bogus. You don't go and recreate it knowingly. It's more like you experienced trauma in your childhood and you're very familiar with it. And so when you see it again later in life and set a running from it like you should, you're like, Oh, I've been here before and I know how to handle it. Like I'm equipped to handle this. You know, and so you're recreating. So it's not really, it's just you're more familiar with that
trauma and that arena and so you can plane it. And you're okay with that. And like, feels familiar. Yeah, it feels familiar and you feel like you're actually equipped to really fix them and be their Savior. So so we hope this episode encouraged you guys today and helps you make more decisions, discerning decisions, not perfect ones, but I'm certainly glad I made this decision. I am too. And I'm glad that we both work through our doubt. Yeah, we were able to acknowledge that you're not
perfect. And I'm not perfect. And we're okay with that. Because all the other indicators and fruit indicate that you will keep working on it. And you will change and you will keep growing and maturing with or without you. I would do it on my own. Like that's a important part. Are they going to do it with or without you guiding them along? Yeah, oh, oh, I got it. So this is what we'll close on. I heard this question. It's so good because they use it a marriage counseling.
After 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, they asked the spouses, they look at each other and they said, now look at each other and answer this question. Did you grow because of your partner? Like they inspired you, they cared for you, they cherished you, they nourished you, they created that environment, or did you grow in spite of your partner? Because they were acting such a fool and blah, blah, that you had to grow in spite of them. Or they spited you to make you change? Yeah, exactly.
And so going in a marriage, ask yourself, is this a relationship that they will grow because of me or in spite of me? It's good. In vice versa. It's good, honey. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for today and we will see you next week. We love you guys. Bye, bye. Bye. The Heart of Dating podcast is created by Kate Warman. It is a part of the Converged podcast network. Our incredible editor is the one and only Scott Carro. Our theme music was developed
by the amazing Christian Lidoo. Special shout out to Andrii Maga and Gabriela Asperru who make this show possible each week and help to keep me safe. If this is your first time listening to the podcast or if you've never written us a review or ranked us on iTunes, we'd encourage you to do so because it helps us so much to get this podcast into more people's ears. We launch our podcasts each and every week on Wednesday. So we'll see you next week.