Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kait. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying?
Now let's get to the heart of the matter. Hey, hey you guys, it's Kait and Mormon and welcome back to The Heart of Dating Podcast. I just have to call myself out for a second because I have a little bit of a cold and I send a little nasal leap. Okay. So when I recorded this episode with JJ, I was not feeling sick, but recording the intro and the mid-roll today. I do sound a little sick. So just wanted you to know that. All right. Hey, I am so excited for the
last week. Last week we talked about triggers and trauma and this week we're going to be tagging right along on top of that episode talking about fighting fair and navigating conflict in a relationship. There is a myth out there that a perfect Christian couple doesn't have any conflict. Sometimes you look at these leaders or these pastors and you think, oh my gosh, they just get along so well together, but they have no conflict. That is what a true godly marriage looks like, no conflict. Y'all that just ain't true. Okay, it's not just a
good thing to be honest with you. It's not about having no conflict. It's about figuring out who you want to do conflict with well and consistently fighting for making conflict be healthy in your relationship so that it's not this long drawn out horrible thing between you. And the most important part about that is figuring out how to come back to knowing always that you are a team.
And actually had a lot of conflict in our dating relationship and especially in our engagement, it's brought up some things that are just difficult. I mean, you're combining lives with someone. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that we've had zero conflict. It's just not the case.
But something that we have been committed to within the conflict is figuring out how to fight fair and fight well and also figuring out how to come back to being a team consistently not trying to throw arrows at one another. And then you're going to stand on the same line and turn towards the problem and then knock the problem out instead of knocking one another out.
And so that's a big theme of the episode today. If you are going through a conflict and you're dating relationship, it is okay. There's a certain level of conflict that's okay. But if you are feeling stuck in it, we want to help you today through this episode to learn how to fight better, how to fight fair and how to get back on the same team.
And then you're dealing with somebody who's totally different from you. They have different ways of communicating. They have different modeling of how love was through their parents. They saw their probably their parents fight in certain ways or completely avoid conflict altogether. And so because of that, the person you're with is often bringing a lot of those different modeling into your relationship.
And so you guys have to learn one another. And so some times there is conflict. And that's just a part of getting to know someone totally different from yourself. So today, JJ and I are getting real honest and vulnerable about what we've learned and finding safe space in our relationship and learning how to fight fair and even the non negotiables that we put in place in our fighting.
All right, guys, if this is your first time listening to the podcast or this is one of your first times ever listening in tuning in, I want to encourage you. Would you do us a favor? Would you rank us and review us over on iTunes? Believe it or not, that actually helps us a lot. So if you've leaned anything from our recent episodes and you've never written a review before, if you're brand new here, encourage you to review us and rank us on iTunes.
Also, if you didn't know, we're doing this podcast now on YouTube. So you could actually watch JJ and I interact in these conversations. I think the podcast on YouTube brings a whole different dynamic. It's so much fun. Our guys without further ado, let's get into this episode today with my man, JJ in fighting fair. Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome back. Welcome everybody. Well, that was loud.
You're loud and in charge. I'm just pumped up to have you guys back. Hey, guys, we're so grateful for all your messages about just showing JJ the love. I'm just saying this because it's been so exciting to see how you guys have loved how the podcast has shifted a little bit this year. And obviously with the addition of JJ and babe, people are loving your perspectives.
Yeah, they're like the first people I've met. So now I'm kidding. I really appreciate the messages and the encouragement. I think it's been really fun to just kind of walk in the doors that got us so clearly open for us. And it's been just so life giving to read the feedback of how this hits home for you guys. And so we're happy to do this. And we we love serving you guys. And it's so much fun.
We were in church today, just like, I was like, this is such a gift. Like what an honor it is to serve you guys through heart of dating. We just wrapped up our closed the door for our program school of dating, our mentorship program. And we just we're praying over the names of every person in the program. And we constantly are praying and thinking about how we can best serve heart of dating. And it really is such an honor.
Yeah, it's so we're so thankful to have your guys as ear. And I don't know. It's been really, really cool to see what you guys are saying. And so go ahead and drop some feedback. I'm personally super excited for this podcast today. Yeah. And this is a working progress episode.
But we know it well. So that's why we're kind of going on the fly. I know. And so it'll be fun to do a follow up because we're going into marriage like, yeah, we have a pretty good grip on conflict. But we have on, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, it's been through a lot of it.
Yeah. All right. So last week, if you missed it, we talked about triggers and trauma. And we talked about what to do when somebody in the relationship has a lot of trauma or has past trauma, whether big trauma or little trauma, the big tea or little tea. And little tea trauma is, we can't make it through without in laughing about the trauma thing. But the little trauma is like little piled up trauma through life versus big trauma are like big events like your parents got divorced.
And we're abused. You were abandoned. You're betrayed like really horrific big trauma. Someone died suddenly in your life. But little moments of trauma can also pile up through your life. And so you may definitely still have those little moments of trauma that haven't been processed.
And therefore, what happens though is through your life, you start at the pile on top of one another and you form tendencies to be able to deal with these things. We talked about attachment styles the week before that. And then last week, we talked about triggers and how to really know if you're having a trigger.
What are some of the things you can do? What happens in relationships when you're being triggered. And this happens also in dating, you can be triggered in dating, not just in the relationship phase. Today, we're going to go into conflict and we're going to talk about fighting fair and we're going to get real vulnerable because yeah, this has been a big thing in our relationship. I mean, we've never had any conflict, right? Like we've never had any.
I don't think like what are you going to talk about today? I wish. I wish. I don't know. It'd be kind of funny. Like my question would be, would you rather have like a perfect relationship and engagement with no conflict and then go in a marriage and just have it like all kind of house of cards be like, oh my gosh.
Yeah. Or would you rather have, you know, conflict on the front end really know that this is not a perfect person and choose to roll with their imperfections and knowing that, you know, you're getting better at conflict. It's why I think it's so important to date through like being a relationship through multiple seasons.
When you, when you don't do that, you sometimes some times people don't have any conflict depending on how vulnerable they're getting depending on how like in fact, you know, they have been depending how long their engagement has or their relationship has been. And there's so many factors actually that I'm going to talk about in a second too.
But you know, if you get married really quickly and you don't see someone through seasons through hard things, especially you may miss conflict. You may think like, wow, we were at Smog Group the other night. And remember the Smog Group leaders were talking about how like the art, the guy was saying about his now wife. He was like, oh, she was just so chill, flexible, easy going, like just awesome.
And then they didn't have that much conflict. And then in marriage, he realized, wow, she is really chill, flexible, easy going. And then we got married. And then I realized, wait a second, she's when I'm upset, she's still chill, flexible, easy going, doesn't want to talk about it. And now I want to talk about it. Wait a second, those things that were super easy and dating are harder now because I'm things are more complicated.
And he identified here a real control trigger that he needed it to be OK. So he needed to talk about it instantly. And she needed a little bit of space and time process. Well, yeah, I want to get into that modeling. But the first thing I want to ask is, and this comes up a lot is, do you think it's a red flag if a relationship has a lot of conflict early on? It's such a great question. And I think I would need to see a lot more context. Yeah.
I would say just like normal conflict, you know, which is hard to identify in the moment. Yeah, exactly. You know, if you're stuck in chaotic conflict, it's kind of hard to recognize. It's chaotic. Yeah, especially if you grew up in a twelch as home, like some of my upbringing, there was a lot of fighting, a lot of chaos, a lot.
So it was normal. Like that kind of environment is anger fighting. That's very normal for me. Yeah, exactly. It's same here. And so the biggest thing here, especially in dating and early on is do not mistake chaos for connection.
And I think that's where it's so important right to have that board of advisors, people who know you and can kind of speak as a third party, be like, oh, yeah, like, yeah, it's pretty normal to get yelled at for a waiter Susan's like the tenth time, you know, but if it's like the first time and you're getting like yelled at, you know,
so it's definitely really nice to have checks and balances and people to hold you, but I would say it's really sad to see people mistake chaos for connection, right. Obviously, if you work through super deep chaos and conflict and you do resolve it, you're going to feel a lot closer.
Hopefully, you're not using like physical tools and sex to like in the reconciliation reconciliation process, because then you're really going to be bonded. But yeah, I would say don't mistake chaos for connection, but conflict and a relationship is normal. Yeah, like it is normal. And I will say this on the flip side of things, I get sad to see so many people see conflict happening and then they compare themselves to a relationship of two people who seemingly have very little conflict.
And then they're like, I can't be in this like we have too much conflict. Well, normal relationships have certain levels of conflict, but you got to keep in mind and this is what why it's so important to take ownership of knowing you and your triggers and your past and your attachment styles and those wounds because like there are certain people that are you could have two secure people that have little conflict because most of them because both of them are pretty secure.
And they don't have a lot of anxious or avoidant or a mevelant leaning attachment wounds and therefore their conflict is very little to none. You can also have people that have minor anxious woundings or minor avoidant woundings and it's just it's minor leaning, but it's not it doesn't come up very much and you can have both parties that have that so if you're comparing yourself to that and you're in a relationship and you realize
that you're using gosh things are flaring up like it's bad to compare yourself to people who you don't know the full breath of who they are. They're upbringing their attachment wounds from both sides and I will just say from my true honesty that you know I used to do that and it used to really make me so fearful like oh my gosh and then I started realizing through time and like wait a second, the people I'm comparing myself or the people who have like very little trauma in their background.
It's very different everything it looks very opposite from my upbringing so while I'm not going I do I always want to get better in the conflict I am having it there's a scale that like if I have conflict okay that's not necessarily bad it's how we're learning and growing through it right.
That is and that's so much more in depth than I would just say you know you hear don't compare yourself to other couples in some ways and that's a much more in depth the way to look at it is just like their stories their trauma their attachment styles so different so you can't compare right it's like there's so many different combinations
and the other thing is you know the reality is if you're in relationship with another human being who is imperfect inherently selfish and just as you know not fully sanctified on earth like there's going to be some sort of conflict yeah it's secure couples maybe can just work through it a little bit more easily or quickly yeah and that's really what it boils down to like they still have it they just can resolve it much more quickly.
This is also in the beginning like if you are also comparing yourself to a couple has been married for five years and have worked this stuff out like of course so it's again so important to know yourself start getting to know the person you're with in their story it does it's not to say as well I want to clarify it's not to say that if you have a lot of trauma in your past and they have a lot of trauma in their past you absolutely can't be together and not you can't work things out that I don't think that's a beautiful picture or a hopeful picture of how God is redeeming and you can see that all the way.
So you're just going to be able to do something with the human being and you can see that all the time but the key there is if you're if you recognize that you have trauma and triggers and you're willing to take ownership and start healing or have already started to heal those different layers.
Yeah yeah exactly and we're going to talk about this later in the episode so just stay around because this is such an important point because a lot of people had a plateau where they're going to the same conflict over and over.
And the conflict cycle which will define later conflict cycles basically the whole cycle of conflict is still taking a very long amount of time they're not getting better at it one or both parties is not doing a lot of work to show up better and so you're just kind of like a stalwart you know it's just it's not really going anywhere.
Yeah just kind of stuck on the same conflict over and over and over have the relationship is conflict well baby will you talk about the conflict cycle and like the fact that really that conflict is okay but what a healthy cycle of it is yes so this is a diagram I learned from my therapist.
If you guys are listening to the episode I'm going to write it out on paper yeah but if you're listening go look it up on YouTube because this totally changed my definition of conflict and most importantly maturity and conflict so I'm going to go ahead and write it and I'm going to use Kate to help me so Kate when we experience conflict and the conflict cycle what is typically the first what's the first thing to happen in conflict yes so some sort of fight step one is agreement.
One is agreement right disagreement something misunderstanding whatever yeah just conflict and every sense of the word yeah what happens next you I don't know somebody's upset there's an offense yeah that offense is taken and it's most likely a reaction right there's a reaction yeah so I call that like reaction or acknowledgement.
So like you acknowledge your feelings are heard yeah it's aired out right like the dirty laundry has been aired out okay I daily what happens next you talk about it yeah I like that you talk about it you walk through it so talk you're pretty me on this but I don't know this model so you define the conflict okay yeah but the point is everybody should be able to kind of walk through this as a couple or okay yeah sorry I'm a little different for everybody but I like the person that needs to know the formula.
I'm like baby you should have told me this is great though this is really helpful I'm like I don't want to tell them unless I know it so what happens after we talk typically apologies right or may yes that's the fun part so that's number four and then reconciliation some sort of resolve the apology needs to have typically at least for me a follow up of like making it right
yeah I like that reconciliation this is where you say hey I know I messed up this is what I'm going to do to fix it yeah so our conflict cycle how we define it right now is conflict reaction right it's brought up you talk about it like you kind of go into the depth why it upset you how it hurt you fourth is the hopefully apology yeah like you know one or the other person is just like hey I did do that I am sorry it's not
a defense it is a acknowledgement that you that you caused conflict and then the fifth one is reconciliation hey I know this really upset you I felt horrible about it do you forgive me will you forgive me and then here's what I'm going to do yeah
I'm going to show you a situation so good okay so a lot of people think and on my conflict cycle when I'm about to show the camera is on your path of maturity as a relationship and I'm going to show the camera is a horizontal line to the right and as you grow older right as you grow closer you think that you get to this magical place of no conflict yeah I said
that we're not going to show each other we're perfect human beings and so we no longer have conflict this person never noise me yes all good we're good at relationship we're Gucci perfect communication we're Gucci this does not exist yeah so what I learn and what really changed my definition is instead of it going just directly to the right like horizontal yes
yeah maturity is actually a 45 degree line ideally if you're both willing to work at it yes yes and we're going to talk about this and you start with a big circle like the first time you go through conflict it's new you don't know that this upsets them working it out yeah the other person doesn't know whether or
not you really understand what they're saying isn't when you apologize you're making new amendments for the first time so hopefully in your maturity cycle you're still going to the same steps one two three four five up conflict reaction talking apology reconciliation but hopefully as you guys go through time you build trust you know each other you know this conflict and you know it most importantly that they're going to do what they say and
to you know their apology they really mean it and three you know like you're in this together and so I'm showing the camera again what maturity actually looks like a relationship with the conflict cycle is actually it's 45 degrees up and when you guys get more mature when both sides are tackling their stuff and coming to the table willing to work on it your
conflict cycle starts to get smaller your resolution the time it takes you to resolve your conflict gets smaller and smaller yeah we yeah it's really small for us now yeah oh baby I am so sorry I know that
really bothers you yeah I totally forgot about that I'm going to do it first thing once I finish this and work be good and you say okay thanks baby thanks for apologizing sure I know you yeah it's much smaller exactly yeah and then what happens is and what I was just referring to is if you are in a
relationship and you guys are just kind of stuck here especially of one yeah and the earlier stages it just takes you a long time to get through conflict like abnormally long you don't build trust one or both parties is just not willing to tackle trauma triggers or things
that really upset them it's probably a lot of stubbornness yeah it's just it's just unwillingness to grow as a partner and the relationship or your stuck like you may want to grow but you're stuck in there you have to try something new get some new counsel advice like yeah you have to try something new if you're really really stuck in your cycle yes which can happen it still doesn't mean your relationship is completely doomed you just you have to you have to both be willing to fight
for whatever tools are necessary because conflict can create a lot of resentment and a lot of pain in the relationship yeah if not continued to be worked on and well the the hard I'm a little bit more on the heart reality is like there's some conflict and some trauma and some woundings that have to be tackled maybe in your mental illness like if you find yourself and you guys are just stuck in this conflict cycle it's been six months to a
year your partner or you just cannot get that breakthrough maybe you need to a break and or a break up I agree with you yeah so yeah that's just my hope with that conflict cycle and what's normal is you're guarantee that conflict and that conflict cycle that's really you just get to choose who you do it with for your life that's that that was a great model so you guys should go watch it on YouTube so you can see the
model that JJ just demonstrated so we're going to go through a few other tools in this episode and things that have helped us or mind earn recap is that in terms of attachment woundings and some trauma I am anxious leaning which means I don't like disconnection I don't like unresolved conflict I don't like feeling unheard I want to resolve things right away JJ is pretty secure actually but he does have an avoidant leaning tendency especially I
would say in conflict typically right honey yeah I've got it for you if Godzilla is out and yeah sometimes well let's tell them this so I heard this a while ago years ago from somebody who I really really trust who's actually been on the podcast but there's this analogy of like in conflict that oftentimes not always but oftentimes someone is the is Godzilla and the other person is a porcupine and it's the it's the idea that you know one person wants to come at the conflict so the Godzilla is a
person who wants to kind of comes at you they want to figure it all out right then and there they're not afraid of conflict well they may not like it but they're not afraid of hashing it out and getting it over and done
with sooner than later they're like let's do this right now and they often will be pretty can be aggressive sometimes okay depends the porcupine is a little bit more like I'm want to keep to my little self but if if not if not properly respected and given its time it will be prickly and it's like
it's little things come out and it's all of a sudden like those little I don't know what you call them the sharp things and it's really frustrated it's like me and it will be sharp and it's like oh you're trying to come at me here's my little porcupine and I'm not going to move yeah so don't come near me it can be as like a it's like a response right like it fills the predator yes coming in exactly exactly so I am
absolutely a Godzilla I am like what would you say let's do it right now let's come at it let's figure this out I need to know right now if we're okay I need you to hear me right here and now like I don't know why I sound so aggressive suddenly right there but well that's pretty good impersonation
I'm chandelier the Godzilla it's like the whole place goes on lockdown it's like we're gonna figure this out like five suddenly fire fires coming out of my mouth you thought you were leaving at nine o'clock tonight that's funny because I'm just getting started no so what would you give so advice for the Godzilla is for me obviously we talked about how a fight and fight response and this is a fight response typically and it's like let me go to battle let's figure it out let's I'm going to give
you all the facts and I'm going to come at you I'm going to try to make you resolve it with me and we talked how last week when you are in a trigger which normally Godzilla is our bit triggered when they're coming at you like a Godzilla when you're triggered nothing good and productive is going to
happen so really for a Godzilla you really need that space to calm down you said it last week babe that like you need 20 minutes to like even 60 minutes sometimes to really calm yourself down if you are really getting into that zone of Godzilla energy and the other person is like no I'm not
here for it like now you're triggering them most likely with how much you're coming at them and so nothing good is going to happen you have to say okay this is if I keep pushing for it what I've noticed if I keep pushing for it because my anxious wounding is like I want the resolve as soon
as possible I feel completely naked and not and not safe without the resolve and so I have to tell myself first of all I need to say like remind myself of some logic if I can like nothing good is going to happen I know the pattern here if I keep coming at it if I keep trying to make it he's
going to feel squashed he's going to feel potentially resentful towards me after it's it's not going to be what I want he might say what I want in this moment but it might be to just appease me it's not because there's true resolve happening yeah because like that Godzilla may do that they
may come at you so much so that eventually the person is like fine I'll just say whatever you want to hear but they're not meaning it they're just defeated they're like the only way I could get the Godzilla to stop running at me oh yeah and attacking so if you're the Godzilla you need to
recognize like it's not you have to wanting resolve sooner than later is okay but if you are trying to get it in a triggered state and you are coming at somebody it's not the ideal timing timing sometimes is everything when you in conflict and when you are triggered especially
for sure I mean I have a good friend their rule is if you're bringing up offense like it can it has to be an safe environment like you and you cannot bring a your offense to the table if somebody else is coming to you with theirs so you can't respond to Godzilla obviously we'll get
into this later but in my advice to the porcupine is don't respond to Godzilla with Godzilla first those are those messy fights and I think we've all if you've been in relationship for you know at any point in time those are the messy ones those are the hard ones but my advice for the porcupine
and just to be clear this is not a list of do's and don'ts these are lessons that came I've learned as that role and advice for ourselves that we think might be helpful for you guys so my advice for me as the porcupine is have courage like have courage like stand in there don't suppress your
feelings don't just turn off because she is being Godzilla and just going off like have courage stand in the gap come with your feelings like be very knowledgeable about your feelings don't just suppress them and then just appease her and say what she wants to hear and then get out of the
conflict like stand in the gap like show up well and also show up with compassion for the other person like that is the moment for you to show up well for them and support them devalidate their feelings and work through the conflict together even if you don't feel like it in that moment
now if you are a true porcupine and you need time to process then the advice there is different right you have to find a way to kind of save in the conversation and then also say hey I just really need time or space to process this can we align on a time tonight tomorrow to talk
about this I think another important part is to say I see this is really important for you to resolve and I want you to know that I also want to resolve this I am not feeling in a place as though I can resolve it right now but I do want to yes and does tomorrow afternoon sound good
literally pull out your phone and say does tomorrow at 9 a.m. over coffee sound good to you and then send them a calendar invite right there in the spot and meet them at 9 a.m. and that's important for the Godzilla the Godzilla wants resolve they want to feel heard
they want they want it to happen then and there and they're often coming at you because they're afraid that they're not going to get one of those things they're not going to get emotional safety you're not going to hear them like bubble blah blah so it's really important like the Godzilla me
I have to say okay and if this is really hard in the very beginning when you start conflict because you're like will you follow up like will you come to the crew yeah it's building trust and so if you are a Godzilla or if you lean like me you want to resolve it right away then it's
really important to express like hey I don't I really yes I don't want to come at you and I need to work on that and I will own that as my part something that would really help me is I'm often doing that I know myself because I want resolve sooner than later and I want to honor that you
need a little more time and space to process which is hard for me but I really do want to respect your process yeah what is important for me what would make me feel really safe is if we could if you would lead setting up a time to resolve it and follow through with that yes and so yeah
there's a couple different if you have a Godzilla on one end there's a couple different you know tactics or depending on your personality I personally I'm okay resolving conflict on the spot I'm totally cool with that or if the other person yeah or if the other person needs space or time
like we were listening to these other couples talking about their conflict and there's one a wife who was like honestly I need anywhere from a few hours or like a day before I can resolve it and talk about it and I was like laughing to myself I'm like honestly I wish Kate would be like I
need to talk about this tomorrow and I'd be like okay sounds good I would just keep rolling on with my life I wish you would say like I need a day to think and process this I'm like all right I'll love that yeah I'll talk to you then but anyway it just depends on you know there's two people
present and so there's a lot of advice right there I personally we're gonna talk about maybe your Godzilla and you have a Godzilla on the other end yeah or bless you there's some good advice coming up we will have some advice there but I think there's also some gender roles here too
at play yeah let's talk about that really quick so this gender roles less gender roles and more so men and women generic differences and genetic generic oh gender differences okay now this is not prescribed okay it's not always like this but so like for all my feminists listening I love you
new you may or may not be this way but but here's the thing is that this is what I often find to be true with a lot of women I know with a lot of guys I know yeah this was literally on our community group the same family which is hard over and over yeah so typically women want to be heard they
they're the kind of people where they want you they're gonna express and share a lot of their feelings probably externally process a lot of the time again not everyone and they want you when they're doing that they want you to sit on it basically like the couch style they want you to sit
on the couch put your arm around them and just listen what they don't necessarily want is for you to judge it or for you to fix it this is specifically this is with when they're talking about things outside of your relationship or if they're talking with you they don't even necessarily want you to
fix it right it could be something like can you just listen I just want you to like even the listening is helping me right now making me feel like comforted and safe yeah and and that is a mistake we sometimes make because guys tend to want to be mr fix it and they want to use their
logic and reasoning and like that doesn't make any sense and if you say that to a girl who's in her fields she's gonna be like what her crazy eyes are coming out she's like I'm sorry basically if she walks that whole problem and you say okay sounds good here's how you failed oh my gosh or if you
just say okay sounds good I'm like wow okay one of the couples said and this is so sweet but she wants a process law and then he's like yeah cool yeah and it reminded me of you babe how you're like okay sounds good and like that you didn't mix it so bad so men on the other side why don't
we give them some phrases what are if you're a man sitting here or if you're the person who needs to just be heard what do you like to hear back well one thing is if you're a guy you're like I do have some advice but you know this is a great rule in general you ask permission before you give
advice and if you're not sure what she wants from you ask it earlier in the conversation hey this is really I can see this is really important to you and I just want to understand what you best would want from me right now do you want me to just listen or and I do this for you too
for your advice like yeah you do and I'm like obviously give me advice you're like okay I'm like why but there is sometimes where you don't want my advice well that's when I don't like your advice wow well actually your boss is right about that I'm like no I'm like yeah it's show time yeah
I don't like it when you don't take my side okay well that's the problem because I'm giving you anyway anyway so I think you like to you love to be told especially if I'm just listening to me like honey that sounds so hard yeah sounds so hard what do you then this has been really
difficult for you yeah exactly and she's like she's like it's so hard it's like an IV I know that formation and feeling comforted man honey I'm so proud of how you didn't lose your cool right there and cuss her out what you don't guess when you're out oh my gosh but anyway
that's the kind of like affirmation and listening year that you're looking for right yeah and you have to tell someone can tell when you're not actively listening oh that's another one too you got to be actively listening okay like I sometimes and people have called me after this I'm
an overactive listener sometimes I'm like yeah and I've gotten a few reviews on the podcast of people like Kate hmm too much I'm like I'm just an active listener okay sue me for it but actively listening means like not paying attention like oh wow like and you know when you're
actively listening and when you're not actively listening so so let's get into the male dynamic again this is do you want to explain the guy dynamic yeah we're a little bit more simple okay kidding I think men do you want to be respected at the end of the day they want you to listen
and then often give advice yeah or you know kind of like weigh in on the solution yeah like if I share something as and it feels really good if you agree with our solution now a wise partner will hear the other person and say oh I totally understand that you might feel that way yeah but there is
like you might be wrong here yeah and here's why but I totally understand why you feel that way yes I'm be like okay and again I still think even for guys as a woman it's still important ask permission before you give advice because just always better to like it does a person really want your advice or not probably gender neutral yeah what do you need for me here do you need me to just listen yeah do you need me to give advice and so forth but I love it when you ask that it's very nice
and I could do a better job of it yeah so that that's another thing to just keep in mind for guys I see often if they've never really been in a relationship and all of a sudden like so many things are coming up and the woman is like having all these feelings like he feels like overwhelmed like he
has to fix it all like be logical and mr fix it and sometimes honestly here's a deal this is magic key for some of the guys like sometimes if you just listen and let her say all she needs to say and just like provide space for her and even say wow that sounds like it must be really really hard
yeah sometimes that is all she really needs they will get into this like seriously yeah validating is like a magic key just validate their feelings it is so valid that you fill away yeah I totally understand why you fill that way well and you may not even understand so you may not even say I
understand yeah but you can say well your feeling is very real because the feelings do feel real anybody's feelings are gonna feel very real to them that's true and and so what's nice is and we'll go back to like the conflict cycle here in the Godzilla one of the most important
things you can do especially if somebody's maybe explaining these things or somebody's triggered they can't really fully think logically or rationally especially it's kind of funny too when you when you describe a problem at work or something if I get amped up about it I'm typically not
being very rational or logical so when you come at me with a right answer like oh you're wrong your boss is actually right about this I'm still in my feelings and so I'm probably not coming at it like completely rationally right I'm biased and I'm upset so the most important thing
is called we call this finding a safe space finding safe space yes and how would you define that in your safe space is a place where you can calm down or make space to calm down through a trigger so that you are not attacking one another which never actually resolves a problem so there is I
wish we could do another drawing but if you can picture it hopefully in your mind you when we call it slinging mud and you often call it that yeah but when you are not in a place of safe space the person might be spiraling more and more and the other person is now spiraling because what's
happening is there is a problem what causes a conflict is some sort of problem but the problem this needs to be clear the problem is not your partner yes the problem is the problem we often confuse the problem for being the partner but there is a separate problem if you were choosing to be
even if the partner caused the problem right they are still not the problem there is a pro yes there is a problem but you have to separate the problem from the person because otherwise you will attack the person get really resentful towards them mistreat them lots of things it's a big
key there is a problem your partner is not the problem they may have contributed to it but they are responsible for it yeah but there is a problem so when you're slinging mud there's a problem picture this big like object in the middle and you're on one side and your partner is on the other
side and you're both trying to quote unquote hit the problem in the middle but when you're on opposite sides what happens and you're trying to hit it let's say with mud yeah you are like you're missing the problem you're just hitting your partner you're just like this word this phrase
whatever I'm not even hitting the problem I'm hitting my partner because we're not actually on a team when you get to safe space and when you can find the safe space you and your partner get to the same side and you together stop looking at each other as the problem and start looking on the
same team at the problem and are like okay you're not the problem I'm not the problem we may have contributed to this word team here but let's as a team sling mud at the problem and get that thing out of the way yes yeah absolutely and do not get caught in the crosshairs like when that
problem is in between you that's the quote getting caught in the crosshairs it's like you're you know like the sniper crosshairs like don't get caught yeah you know and then what I do to encourage this safe space is one you totally validate their feelings when they come at you no matter how hot
hey your feelings are totally valid and I said this the other night like even if there's a bone in my body that doesn't understand how for many bones yeah are where you're coming from or why you're acting like this I can still say the phrase your feelings are valid and it is completely
true and it's very disarming to the other person like oh they believe me like I don't have to go through x y and z and really harp and explain like they believe me that my feelings are valid that another thing that is super important when somebody slinging mud at you or there's a Godzilla
on the other end and they're saying things do not get sucked into the vortex yeah it is so easy and that's probably your pride like you have to separate from your pride they're not insulting you your ego they're not coming at you like it is trauma and triggers on their end flaring up
but it's not about you those insults and they can't even throw insults at you they're not personal it is not about you like it is they're in their little same pit throwing a fit you know doing these things and you can have compassion for them instead of taking it personal because remember like we
talked about last time sometimes a lot of times the problem has to do with a trauma trigger from the past and doesn't necessarily have to do with this person I none of that one of us are saying it's right like for if someone has a trauma trigger and they suddenly are saying or doing things
that are wrong it's just important to remember that oftentimes if you can tap into a place of compassion if you can calm yourself and try to get onto their team because if they're in a trauma trigger and they're flailing their arms they don't have a lot of control over it if you
can say things and move towards safe space or remind them and this is already when you've like built in this model you have to talk about wanting to do this model together in order for you both to like know that this model exists and that you want to get to that place because the idea is
okay we're slinging mud and we're making each other the problem and we need to instead get on the same team even reminding the other person like hey I I am on your team yeah how can I better be on your team right now I'm really like I'm really having a hard time like I have to say that
sometimes too I'm like I am on your team yes or you remind me of it too as well yeah and uh this just occurred to me we can do a whole another episode on this but if you're struggling to share your feelings about the other person one super important thing to keep in mind is never say
like you are this oh yeah you like labeling it because that is judgment that is like the hallmark sign of judging somebody and assigning to them what you can say and what really change how I communicate these things is I experienced you as this so I'm not saying hey you're selfish I'm
saying hey in this moment because of what you did and how it felt for me I experienced you as selfish or you can say I or you could also flip it and say like this is this is like owning it for yourself of saying like the way you are responding right now is making me feel really XYZ and it's
it's it's it's um it's making me it very hard for me to approach the conversation because I'm feeling and I'm experiencing you as being very selfish and that is as making me feel like it's not a safe space and so I don't know I'm having a really hard time personally wanting to resolve and I
do I know that in there I do want to resolve that's a good one yeah that's a good one or you on or you maybe unravel have you said this to me like this hey baby blah blah you make a really nice and sweet it's very disarming and you're like that is a way I really could have received it
and the other person's like okay yeah that's good point um so I think by far and a way first hip space the number one goal is um disarming that's typically through validation just disarming and then to get into their child like the little child I do that too I do that that's like scared
or feeling or like feeling alone and like that's what you have to picture like there's something inside of this person right now that feels a lot of shame that feels a lot of anger that feels alone that feels unheard and like when you might be acting that way or especially when I am like
yeah you do yeah picture like that part of it because it um it helps me personally unlike empathy um and two it helps me kind of uh yeah like second unlock compassion like when that seven-year-old girl is yelling insults at me like I'm not gonna take him as seriously like the insult parts
and I'm just gonna have more compassion for the pain the trigger that led us to that moment and then what I can do to kind of resolve it and you don't you don't view them as a kid in like a derogatory sense like you're being such a seven year old thrown a fit oh yeah you know it's like a
seven year old like there's something that happened here there's something a lot more deep going on here that I can really use this as an opportunity to speak into with truth and love and grace and that is so binding it's so healthy and that's been really sweet I don't I don't love
any of the fights that we've gone through but I love the reconciliation that we've been a little walk through yeah and the trust that we've built like you know I got your back you know I'm not leaving you yeah even if I have to go out and like you know calm down like you know on coming back
and that comes with security over time and a relationship you know obviously it's not gonna be there on the second fight yes so I hope that's encouraging for you guys um some keys I would just add honey in that is that you have to both people have to be willing to not think of the other person
as the problem and want to work on figuring out what the problem is as a team and both people have to be willing to work on what they're contributing to the problem oh yeah because and we often do we talk about this we can't even we don't have the time to go into like apologies and the art
of apologies we'll do another one on that at some point yeah because one important part of the fight fighting process fighting fair process to not just look for the one thing you disagree with uh-huh or for all the things you disagree with but look for the one thing you can get on board with
oh yeah that's and that's a game changer that definitely changes conflict another one is like defining the conflict cycle and defining an apology because guess what oh I have another one yeah well here's a fun one and we'll talk about this more you learn how to
apologize from your parents so if your parents are really great at apology which I'm sure is very rare like there's a whole an apology in itself there's five steps to it according to Gary Chapman yeah like I learned how to apologize and if you think about it think about your dad or your mom
those few times or many times that they apologize that's where you learn it from like you see it in culture but you don't really learn you learn it from the conflict that you saw growing up gosh I just need to say one additional thing yeah this was huge I dated someone years ago
and this was really hard for us he always expected me to apologize first because in his mind he saw that I was 60 70% of the problem and though he caused stuff to the problem he wouldn't ever apologize first and that's a big part of conflict and resolving conflict
as well is to not look at which percent how much percentage you are you you contributed and like because you're weighing it obviously just based on yourself but if you're like well I only contributed 30 to 40% and they contributed 60% or 70% in your mind from your perspective and you're like I'm
not apologizing first they have to yeah and it's that's a horrible way to also do conflict it's not a godly way to do conflict because you have to be able to be humble lay down your life for this other person and say I'm really sorry for my part and how I caused you even if the other person
was 80% wrong like of course it can be true yes it's that is such a good point it's such a hard piece of that because you're on the same team yes and when you are on a sports team like we all love sports in America when your team loses you all lose and even if the quarterback through
five picks like there might have been some catches or assignments or things that you could have done better and you all lose you still feel the same sting of a loss and there's not and there's the shared loss together it's the same thing in conflict yeah it's a team sport conflict as a team
sport so you cannot look at how you contributed 70 I contributed 30 I'm willing to apologize 30% of the way and the rest is on you right horrible way to do it and that I see trips coupled up a lot that has tripped me up a lot of like but like you know you both have to be willing to
apologize because if the other person if you are always finding that you are contributing 40% of the problem and you're always the one apologizing and they don't apologize like that is a problem it just takes a lot of humility yeah it's again a team effort yeah another huge thing that's
helped us in this process this is the last one yeah the last thing for fighting fair is having fighting non-negotiables I would say this is for people when you are getting more developed when you are in a relationship really serious yeah and there is conflict I mean if married people can
even listen to this this is helpful advice but we learn this in premarital and I think it's very very helpful to have fighting non-negotiable so knowing your unique DNA both partners unique DNA what is an absolute no-no for you in a fight and both establishing what those things are
hmm so should we give Mars yeah and that you guys can come up with your own obviously yeah this is just the ones that we use a big ones no profanity yeah the why behind I the why behind that one is you just you lose a lot of respect for somebody who doesn't have self control including their
tongue and so when they sort you know dropping any kind of curse words like small or large uh and degree you just lose respect like you logically you just can't have a safe conversation it's a homework sign that the other person doesn't have self control and it's not in a place to
calmly talk about it and so no profanity yeah another one is this one was for me mainly no threatening to leave the relationship I would say similarly though no leaving the middle of conflict oh yeah like without any like storming off like but also no threatening to leave this was a big one for my
anxious style that was really hard unfortunately it was like something I used to use a lot in past relationships and it came up a little bit for us too but no threatening to leave the relationship especially at this point this looks yeah some people think because of what they learn it's okay to
just storm off in the middle don't say any words and just slam the door behind them yeah or even if that's at the end like you know I think leaving or threatening to leave like when we say threatened to leave like I will leave this relationship you know yeah I will I will leave you yeah
like this is definitely in the you know I will break off the engagement if you don't you know like it's just is that really how you want to conduct your conflict with threats and especially threat to leave like that for me is super deflating like really after everything yeah like we're just
gonna toss in the towel on this one conflict you know and then the last one this one was more for you because I would do it no laughing and I learned this too growing up like if somebody's acting great great over there and they say something that no matter how illogical from your point is like
do not laugh like don't laugh like it's not a laughing matter and some people have a reflex of like uncomfortable things make them want to laugh I do you do that too sometimes yeah I get really upset it's just laughing is awful that one for me was a really big no go because of my abusive
relationship and like laughing just like mockery yeah it feels like especially laughing if the other person is crying oh my gosh that one I just can't even handle if you're like you're a lot like you're crying right now like anything of that nature like just is a no go we don't have this one
but another good one I heard is they're non-negotiable is if something's not okay like you're upset about something this is maybe for two avoidance you're not allowed to say I'm fine I then have the other person ask a follow up question like are you really fine and play that game if you're if it's
not fine one of their non-negotiables is you have to communicate it's not fine it's gonna ask you a question now you don't have to resolve it you don't have to go through the conflict in that moment you can do it later and we're gonna have a we're gonna have like a ending clip hanger question
but for you guys to answer but that's really cool because you have to communicate and be honest with how you feel but you don't have to resolve it in that moment if you're a processor you can't have space in time to come back to the table now to close and this is so funny because I hear it
and I'm like yeah do we agree about or do we agree on the phrase do not let the sun go down all it's in the bible under anger but I I don't agree with that I think the heart behind that even in the bible is to not allow conflict to go unresolved and untocked about and
yeah but I I sometimes believe and I believe that something you can do and that is helpful I mean we don't know what it's like fully because you and I aren't married yet we haven't slept in the same bed we don't know what it's like to be like mad right before bed like we I don't know we
will find out more about this right but my initial take is you you want to as much as possible like remind the person I'm on your team and I love you and I do need some time or overnight to think about this or calm myself down especially if it's late at night or whatever whatever and then so
in that case I am okay with it being talked about the next day I think what's important here is like the posture of the seeking and wanting to resolve and then actually doing it absolutely is that do you agree babe correct because the phrases don't let the sun go down on your unresolved
conflict yes the phrases don't let the sun go down on your anger and you can have the absence of anger right piece of some sort in unresolved conflict and that is super super important yeah you sometimes the more you work into that secure you have to be okay with things maybe not being okay
in that moment yeah because that's life it is life that's life and that's that's the piece I think that God and the Holy Spirit provides us that perfect peace that suppresses on knowledge and understanding that whether Paul's in the prison cell or crisis you know on Golgotha like there
is that piece that we know is attained when things are absolutely not okay in life that you can still have peace so don't let the sun go down on anger I think it's important to discuss that anger like have that anger talked about it is knowing it is it is it is it is brought to God it is
like acknowledged it's not bestered but is not synonymous with resolving all conflicts because then you're like after 10 o'clock a night that's another rule that we had oh yeah no conflict after 10 p.m. that's right we don't really have this problem anymore but in the beginning like
with when things were like we were working on our conflict cycle it would be like a downward spiral like dude this is like conflict after 10 o'clock at nine o'clock whatever it is just is not a good and never goes well no so I don't think that's the scriptures and temptions there either
it's not saying stay up to every minute it takes to resolve conflict it's I think it's humble your start yourself to get on the same team and be committed to working through it yeah and like expressing I mean even if you may not feel like you love that partner in the moment but like I
love you and we're on the same team yeah I'm really frustrated right now and um yeah we're gonna resolve this like I think that's the important part for sure obviously I didn't write this first but that's great is the the more important partner that I can't like are they gonna fight against
that you know like this is the most important thing for me to figure out tomorrow yeah I would love some time and I know yourself said you might be still pissed at me but you you are gonna have to find a way to be okay with things not being okay yeah and you're gonna have to be able to go to
bed that is just life so I hope that was helpful for you guys this just the all of these are supposed to be short episodes they're all supposed to be like what 40 minutes yeah there's no way because there's so much that we have to say and so much we've personally learned so thank you
guys for listening to fighting fair it's obviously something that we've worked through and our conflict cycle is so much better now than it ever was there was sometimes like we'll be honest in the midway that it was especially when I was going through depression like it was there was some
rough patches we'll we'll get real and honest about those I know even more but there's like SOS yeah I'm on the beat and and we're really grateful we did have some people pouring into us I think we wouldn't have made it through our relationship without some really key not a chance mentors
yeah helping us through some of this complex in the most important by far and away and I don't have we references enough and the last one is like if you don't have a foundation of grace and you don't have a foundation of leaning on Holy Spirit and like leaning on God for that empathy
that compassion for the humility right to really humble yourself in complex you will fail yeah like it just is I don't I don't think it's possible yeah so that is by far and away the most because that's what really glorifies God you can use even conflict yes conflict as an opportunity to glorify
God yeah isn't that awesome aren't you just awesome yeah well I don't know about that but you are okay oh I so attracted to you doing these episodes you're such an awesome man well I'm always attracted to you so but yes thank you well thank you guys so much for listening
this was awesome so fun we love you guys it's such an honor you guys oh sorry baby I'm just cut you off go ahead no go ahead no just gonna say you guys give JJ a shout out because he is doing this at nights on the weekends like he is pouring into heart of dating because you feel
passionate about it not because I'm like I do it or else no he really wants to that's your passion as well and like it's like passion God is like putting your heart but you know in order to do that well he's also working we have to do it at nights on the weekends we have to like sacrifice
some of our free time in order to do it which is a joy but yeah definitely shout JJ out for all it's funny I you film this with me you're in the same boat yeah I know honey I know so but I think for both of us what's most fun and our encouragement for you guys is whatever opportunity
that God has surfaced in your life as an opportunity to steward and serve others do it do it like do it no matter how hard it is do it so we love you guys we thank you so much and we pray that this helps you guys glorify God and you're dating and you're dating and yes even in conflict
yeah totally all right all right guys bye bye bye the heart of dating podcast is created by Kate Warman it is a part of the converged podcast network our incredible editor is the one and only Scott Carro our theme music was developed by
the amazing Christian Ladou special shout out to Andrii Maga and Gabriela Asperru who make the show possible each week and help to keep me sane if this is your first time listening to the podcast or if you've never written us a review or ranked us on iTunes we'd encourage you to do so because it helps us so much to get this podcast into more people's ears we launch our podcasts each and every week on Wednesday so we'll see you next week this show is part of the converged podcast network