Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kait. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way, because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying? Now let's get to the heart of the matter.
Hey, hey, everybody. It's your girl, Kate Warman here and welcome back to The Heart of Dating Podcast. I'm so glad you are tuning in this week. Hey, if you didn't know, we now have YouTube. Hello, you can watch us each and every week doing the podcast after four years of doing Heart of Dating. This is the first time ever that we're actually offering videos
so you can actually watch the podcast. And it's actually really fun because as you know, Matthew Anse, JJ Tomlin has been coming on the show with me and it's been really fun doing the video podcast because you totally get a different dynamic when you get to see us interact and have these conversations. You get to see fun things like loving or teddy making a cameo and other really random stuff that does happen only when you're
watching the video. So do as a favor and go over to YouTube and watch our YouTube podcast. It'll also be in the show notes here. And if you can, will you like, subscribe and even comment on the video, the video podcast today that would mean a lot to us. Hey, you guys, we are so stoked because JJ has just been on the podcast now for a few weeks now. And we have been having such a good time being able to serve you guys in a unique and different
way. What we've been doing the last few weeks is we've really been bringing you guys into our story and kind of also sharing a lot of the things we've learned in the process. And we've been taking you pretty much in chronological order from when we first met until the stage that we are talking about today, which is talking about sexual past. Woo, woo, woo. And so if you guys are liking this, would you let us know we want to really
serve you well. If this is your first time listening to this podcast, I want to welcome you officially to the heart of dating community. This is a podcast you are listening to, but it's much more than just a podcast. We have an epic community of single Christians from around the world that do life together. I want to invite you to come and join our Facebook community over on Facebook where we have over 8,000 single Christians actively doing life
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going to do it. So check us out on TikTok at at heart of dating. We're having a blast there. And JJ's even contributing a bit now. You guys, it's been a blast. So come over and check out the things we're doing over on TikTok. Shout out to our amazing heart of dating intern Haley and to Gabriella who is always our TikTok MVP. Really just our social media MVP. She does so much for us at heart of dating. Okay, today we're getting into the
topic of sexual past. And this is a doozy. And JJ and I introduce it and introduce the fact that it is a doozy because there's so much to talk about here. And I think there's a lot of shame and there's a lot of pain when it comes to this topic. So my hope in my prayer is wherever you land on the spectrum, whether you have an extensive sexual past or whether you don't, that you listen to the conversation today with open ears and that
you listen with the lens of grace and compassion for yourself and for other people. I think that is probably the most important thing when we're having this conversation. So without further ado, let's get into the podcast today. Hey everybody. What's up you guys?
Welcome back. I'm back again. We have you here, babe. This has been fun. If you guys didn't know this year at the beginning of the year, we decided to change things up with the podcast where we, I decided to interview less guests and focus a little more on really answering true practical dating questions. We could really give you guys really good advice. Yeah. And I think the feedback's been really good so far. Yeah. And then obviously you came
in the mix halfway through this year, the beginning of this year. Yeah. I don't know if we really plan to do this mini together, but it's been received really well. I think you guys have really liked it. And we've been taking it week by week. I know. And it's been a fun way to kind of unpack our story together. Yeah. Which I think people really like hearing. I agree, honey. Well, should we tell them what we're talking about today? Yeah. Today
we're talking about sexual history, the sexual past and physical boundaries. Yeah. Though we're probably going to put that in episode two because I don't think we're going to have time to get into it today. Yeah. That will be a great one. That'll be how to set them and how to keep them. And well, I think it's how to know what they are for you because we're not legalistically telling you this, that or the other, and then know how to set them
and keep them. Yeah. And I think keeping them is probably the most important because we're human. Yeah. And it's a learning process. Exactly. So we'll get into that. But if you guys didn't know, you can actually watch us on YouTube. Hey guys, we're matching again. We are those people. Okay. You also love matching. Don't lie. You would suggest it today. You were like, Oh, do you want to wear your Nike sweater? I'm like, Oh my gosh. Okay, honey.
Okay. Yeah. She out of me. I think it's cool. I love it. I love it. Okay. So we love it. We're definitely that couple that likes to match. And we're not ashamed about it. Yeah. I make her match me or before I go see her some days of I see what she's wearing like on her Instagram story. I'll purpose or sometimes ask like, what colors are you wearing? And honestly, it's fun. I think it's just like a fun way for us to show up and
be unique and different. Yeah. Well, it's a lot better than me showing up in like some graphic tea and you know, like cargo pants and she just looks at me up and not like, what are you doing? Cargo. Well, cargo pants are just not in in general. So I love the, I'm a big cargo guy. I think they just get way too much hate. You know, I can't even say anything now because the 90s are back and I'm wearing all these things that I thought
I never would wear, including I got those ugly sandals recently, babe. They're so fetched. They are really bad. They're like bad. No, you like them. I think they're cool. Well, I give black money on these 20 bucks. I get I wear my Burk and stocks and she looks at me, but I think it's a little different because she has like pedicure feet and I have like hobbit feet. So anytime I show off my feet, it's like, you love making that sound.
Any opportunity for JJ to make the crack throw up sound he does. So I'm sorry for those of you listening. Well, if you guys saw my feet, you probably would have the same reaction for you to have hobbit feet. Honey, it's okay. Not everyone has great feet. And that's okay. Yeah. I still love you and your feet. I just don't have a foot fetish. I know. I know you don't. I'm thankful for that. But it's funny. I give her the foot massage. And then
when I put my feet up, she's like, I'm like, oh, get up away from it. Yeah. I'm like, all right. This is the two way street. Anyway, we'll have to talk about that later. But yeah, sexual past. That's what we're talking about today. And you know, it's funny because do you want to tell them about our notes and what we went over before this? Oh my goodness. Well, I think this is going to be really helpful for everybody because Kate is a little
bit older. She definitely got like the brunt just a little bit five minute years. And she got like the brunt of the purity culture, especially from the female experience. Yeah, totally. And I was a little bit on the late side of that. And definitely didn't get it as much, especially from a male experience. I think it's a little bit different. Yeah. And so even when we did the prep and the notes for this and we were going through like the
walk through, which is typically a little bit smoother, it was like, no, pause. We were not saying that. I was like, I know you have good intentions with the way you just said that to me. It's like, ooh, reminiscent of purity culture language. So we got to move away from that. Yeah, which is great. There's there's easier ways to say things. And what I like is there's a lot to unpack behind certain words. Yeah. And just the word itself
can mislead people. And so pure, pure. Yeah, there's just a ton of, yeah, yeah, kind of like single buzzwords. And, um, Virgin, yeah, Virgin, like all these words. And just to be like flat out and sort of out there, I'm a virgin, uh, and Kate is not meaning. I have not had sexual intercourse and Kate has. And so even then just throwing out the word virgin and that is like, there's a lot behind that. And we're all adults here. Like we're
all comfortable talking about like sex is very layered, right? And it's very great. And just because you're not a virgin or you are a virgin with sexual intercourse does not mean you're guilty or you're guilt free. Yeah. Having a, and I even hate the word guilty. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, but I think the reality that, you know, well, okay, we're going to jump in here, but I want to pray first. Let's pray because I have even a thought that
comes is coming up. Like we just go roll, but like we're going to roll into the conversation we have a lot to say, babe. Yeah, it's great. Would you pray over us? Yeah, I'll pray. And we'll just real quick. Jesus, thank you so much that your grace covers a multitude of sins. I thank you so much that regardless of what sexual experience that we have had, we have never experienced true sex, true covenant of the tolls sex between man and woman
in the Institute of marriage. We have never had that. We've never tasted it. And Lord, we just hold on to that promise that we still have the true gift of sex ahead of us regardless of our background, but it's approached each other in grace and be quick to listen and slow to anger in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. And with that, you know, we want to start by saying, you know, this is a conversation that needs to be approached with a lot of grace in two
ways, grace for yourself. Okay, grace for yourself. If you don't handle it perfectly, the conversations you're about to have with somebody you're dating grace for your own past, if your past is potentially like mine or even like JJ's, which he'll talk about
later. And grace for, you know, the other person. And that is a really important thing that we're going to hit on a lot today because we just think if Jesus was in these conversations, no matter what the person's past is or no matter what yours is, like he would be there being like, I love you. And you are made new in me. And he would look at you and embrace you and welcome you. Like babe, you said this yesterday, we were talking about this,
the story of the prostitute. Yeah. I mean, think about that. Yeah. I mean, if there's one person who had the right to throw the stone, it would be Jesus. And when he was looking at this prostitute, he did not move out of anger. He didn't move out of judgment. And he had the right to yeah, and said he chastised the Pharisees and the people about to stone
her. Yeah. That's who he defended her. And she was like caught red handed. Yeah. Like it was like the prime time of like dropping the hammer of justice, you know, judging her. Yeah. Who would like if you what did he say specifically? He among you who have not seen and can throw the first up. Yes. Exactly. And so it was such a cool moment because he had
every right to define her by her sexual background, her sin, and where she was. And then he chooses to look past her and see her for the daughter that he created and love her. And then of course he tells her to go and sit no more. But in that, there was forgiveness and seeing her for who she was, which is more than her sexual background. And she was caught
like in the middle of it. Yeah. And it's so sobering for all the other people, which is like part of this conversation, you guys, like when we get into like if you are one of those individuals who maybe wouldn't date someone because of their sexual past, like he who has not sinned, you throw the first stone, right? He among you has not sinned
and you throw the first stone. But the reality is we are all sinners. And I think this brings up for me just the reality and, you know, in my experience as well with having a sexual past is that a lot of times with the conversation of sex specifically, we really and sexual sin quote unquote, we put it like worse or higher up than any other potential
sin out there. And there's a lot. There's so many different ways. I mean, if you think about it, we sin every day, whether outrightly or in our minds, like with our thoughts and different things. And so there are various ways in which we sin. But somehow when it comes to this topic of sexuality and sexual sin and having sex or the other not just intercourse
but other things, like we are we heighten it so much of like, you did what? Yeah. You know, like and it's like that's worse than gossiping, then lying, then slandering, then treating someone really, really poorly. That is worse. And I just think that is not right. Yeah. It's almost put like an epitome on both sides just because you are a quote unquote virgin, right? It's on a pedestal like you're a little bit more holy in some ways. And
I say that because I did that. Yeah. And then the vice versa is like, if you're not a virgin, then you're unclean and tampered. Oh, and I hate those words. Like, yeah, by the way, that is never verbiage that we would ever say to anybody who has a sexual past. Yeah. So pure to culture terms, you're unclean and it's just like your tampered goods, you know, it's just a very sad way because the amount of self righteousness and we're going
to get into this. It what it actually does is the person speaking those terms is assuming a self righteous and arrogant position. And I have done that in the past. I'm really sad to say it. And so we help, we hope that this episode is for both the person with the sexual past that's more extensive and external and then for the person with the internal sexual past, you know, who is maybe a quote unquote virgin, but meaning you haven't had sexual
intercourse. Yeah. But we all know like, especially in the digital age, like the rampant use of pornography and all these other things, like that's why when Jesus and Matthew five, what 27 when he was talking to the Pharisees, first he was talking about anger and he's talking about the 10 commandments. And then he talked about adultery because you had a lot of these good, he good Pharisees who were abstaining from sex who thought they were
checking the box. Well, Jesus came in there and just brought the roof down because he said, Hey, guys, if you less in your heart, you have already committed adultery. And that is the same logic for us today. If you might be a virgin and check that box for sexual intercourse, but I'm sorry, if you have looked at pornography, if you've lessed in your heart, if you've acted on that lesson any kind of way, then guess what? You've committed the same adultery
that somebody who's committed the external act of sexual intercourse. Like you guys are equal. We have, we have different ways. And I have other thoughts on that, but yes, like the point is you are not quote unquote more righteous because you've never had sexual intercourse. Yeah. Now you have a good experience. Well, you have a good example of how this
played out in a relationship, right? Yeah. And yeah, not a good experience, but I dated a lovely guy and years ago and he, you know, we were just feeling all the feels, all the things. And then eventually came up my sexual past through a period of a few months, which we will get into this, but we don't encourage bringing this up first thing, not at all. But eventually through time I shared more about my sexual past with him. And I'll never
forget like he was in shock, truly in shock about my sexual past. And not only was he in shock, like he could not process it. So, you know, the first and it was like I, so I had been in a period of, you know, healing from my sexual past, taking a break from men from my past. And you guys know my story. I've been in an abusive relationship and that a relationship was also sexually abusive. And then before that, I had been in relationships where I'd
been sexually active. And after all of that, I took a break off of dating and started reclaiming who I was and also reclaiming my sexual ethic and what that meant for me and my relationship with sex and why I was, why I clung to sex and use that as a tool to connect. I had a really bad relationship with it to be honest. And that comes from a lot of my personal wounding and that needed healing. And I had done a lot of that healing,
albeit not all of it. Even some of that still comes up where I'm like, oh, wow, there's something there. I need to address. But needless to say, I done a lot of work. And then I shared this with this guy and I'm good. I feel good about my past in a way of like I have reconciled it with the Lord. I have reconciled it with myself. I have reclaimed what my new boundaries are. I've decided that I was going to wait to have sex until marriage. And I had been
absent at that point for like a very long time. And so anyway, I'm revealing my past to him and he's like in shock. And I'm like, oh my goodness. Okay. He's in shock. And then, but not only was it like that one conversation that he was in shock by, he kept bringing it up. He kept bringing it up like in different points. We would have like, I remember one amazing date night we went on. And then we went somewhere after the date night, like a late night diner.
He just brought it up. Like I still can't get it out of my head that you have this in your past. And I was like, oh my goodness. And so, and the reality is he was wrestling with that on his own, but he should not have communicated that in that depth to me. That needed to be processed outside of our relationship. And it caused me so much unnecessary shame because I had already dealt with my shame from my sexual past. And now he's, it's like resurfacing because this guy is making me feel
that much worse about it. I'm like, I understand that he may needed to process some of that. However, it shouldn't have been, that is, he shouldn't have had that reaction to me ideally and not continually bring it up. So that really, really was hard for me. Yeah. And how long had you been dating when you kind of I think about three months. Okay. Yeah. That's a good time, time frame. It really sounded like he, well, granted, we had like jumped in really fast. So we were in like a
very serious relationship. Our pace was not on board. That was not a good ideal. Yeah. Well, to be honest, it sounded like, you know, you being a virgin was a deal breaker for him. And he just assumed, yeah, an unsaid one, which is important. And then two, he just assumed because you're Christian that you had us, you know, a free history of any kind of like sexual past. Yeah, which is a horrible assumption. Absolutely horrible. Well, it's just a sad one because guess what?
He probably has an assumption on his end that because he is a virgin and can check that box that he doesn't have a sexual history either. And I know his sexual history. And I'm not going to share that. But like it wasn't, it was very, very, very unfair. Let's just put it that way. But this brings up a great point. Okay. Because I think a lot of people put their sexual past or lack there of specifically sexual intercourse on a pedestal. And they're like, they, it's like
this virginity like prize. Like my virginity is like up there in a pedestal. And it is like this prize that I have. I have kept it. And it's like, I'm also just going to say it. It's like those individuals, sometimes those people are also the people that I've done literally everything else. And maybe even looked at pornography, but they're like, but I'm a virgin. And I'm amazing. And, you know, but and they're like, they put it on a pedestal. Yeah. And, you know, I just, what do,
yeah, do you have any experience with that even personally with your past? Yeah, I do. And firstly, I would just say if you are a virgin and meaning you can check the box and you haven't had sexual intercourse, like, great, like, really great. And I'm really happy that you've saved that from marriage. But in reality is like the whole sexual experience, even from sleeping in the same bed to making out and all these things that are not sexual intercourse, these are all great things
that you want to save for marriage. Like, Kate and I don't sleep in the same bed together, because we need that as an intimate experience. That's not sex that we want to save for the gifted. And again, we're not saying this to be a prescriptive thing to you. You need to figure that out. But that doesn't check the box of sexual intercourse, but that is a sacred, sweet, intimate thing that we want to save for marriage. That's important. Now, I have a lot of things. I won't even get into
the graphics. Now, I will just quickly talk about as a quote unquote virgin who checks the box of no sexual intercourse. Did I ever put sex and the virgin conversation on a pedestal? And I don't think I ever, and this might, I think hopefully touch this people. I never mindfully did, but I subconsciously did as like a barometer of the other person's sexual, you know, past and like their spirituality, like they are connected. Like it connected. Like kind of that guy did.
Yeah. And which is really unfair because we, first of all, everybody has a background. Before they are Christian, everybody has a background of some sort. And what's most important is who they are today. Yes. And the, I, I know they are becoming. Yes. That is really important. Super because as I kept reading the Bible and pursuing God, you, you read the Bible and all you find is story after story of imperfect person, an imperfect person who is called the higher purpose
and a new being and a new mission in Christ. Look at Paul. He was hunting down Christians. Mm hmm. If we graded Paul on not just like the sexual background, but his just background in general, like he would have no business being the greatest apostle that ever won. Right. You know, he wrote, well, that's the funny thing. A lot of the people that Jesus chose even to be his disciples, people with wild pasts or that came to everybody. So, and then it hit me as I read
these amazing stories of redemption. Like, why could that not be my future wife? Yeah. Like, why can my future wife not have a background in a history and be called a higher purpose? If anything, that was more appealing to me because she's been to the bottom. She's experienced a low of lows. And then she's experienced the redemption of Christ that much more. Yeah. And her mission, her testimony on earth is like powerful and like ready to go. So I love that. And then as
I turned the mirror internally, I was like, wait a second. How can I hold that, the her sexual passive answer and not extend grace after all I have received? It's like the story of the the parable of the two deaders. Yeah. Well, we're also recording this on like Easter weekend. Yeah. It's like the perfect opportunity to think about like, my gosh, like how much Christ did for us. Yeah. How much grace he had for us. How much love he has for us, right? Yeah. And
how could you ever deny that for somebody else after you have received it personally? And what's more than that is I have received it for all my external sin and lusting and sexual past and my internal all the thoughts and all the prana I have a history with pornography use all the hidden sin I've received grace for that nobody knows about. So the fact that I could ever sit on my little throne and look and cast judgment and grade her and judge her based off her sexual past is just so
unfair. And so, you know, and then the last one is just like we'll get into this is why is her sexual past less sinful than mine? Why is it less? Yeah. Why is it less? Why is her sexual past less bad than mine? Yeah. So that's for everybody listening who has put sexuality and virginity on a pedestal. Like, okay, that's a great thing that you decided early on and you stuck to and that's
awesome. Some people were not afforded that same opportunity based on their past. Yeah. And some people made mistakes, you know, and fortunately we all have the same gift of true sex before us and marriage between men and women and cabinet. So we all get to experience that together. Yeah. So a lot of people ask, well, okay, so, okay, you know, I have a sexual past, like meaning you have a sexual past too. But I have I've had sex before. I mean, intercourse. And so has that affected
us? That's why you left it because the way I said it. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I just was really intense on that. I like the clarity of that. You're so like a biology teacher. Intercourse. Anyway, oh my goodness. We have to clarify that for you guys too, because sex is so layered. Yes. It is so layered. So what you have to really clarify intercourse, because we'll talk about this on the boundaries, more the physical boundaries. Like the sexual experience is so much more than
just sexual intercourse. Yes. Yeah. And how you define sex is very, I don't know, I think that also changes a lot. We'll get into some great definitions. Yeah. But, you know, how did my past, meaning that I had sexual intercourse, affect us in any way? Yeah. Do you want to answer it? Well, yeah, I would say here's a thing for for the person, well, okay, was it were you worried about
that in any capacity? No, because and this is what I would say to the guy who that experience with you and the person who can check the the virgin box of intercourse is you need to be really clear going in to relationships and dating. If this is something that you're comfortable with and can talk about and work through, because if you get into the relationship and all of a sudden like this guy, you know, you have this huge assumption that they are a virgin and check the box and you have
to have to, you have to work through all these things that when they do reveal that news of any kind of sexual background, whether it's porn use, it's actual sex or other things in the sexual experience, you're going to be corn and quid surprise, you're going to be working through it.
And when they come to you and you have that hard conversation, like, you have to already have that sorted out, I feel like in your mind and in your spirit and your heart, because when if you don't, you're going to be focusing on you and your interpretation and you're receiving of that and set a being real focus on them and and giving and extending grace and and giving and extending love and seeing them for who they are and not be like, oh gosh, that really caught me out of
heart. I really have to double think this. So meaning like this is like internal work, we encourage you to do beforehand. And you're the person who really like, if the idea of finding out that your partner's sexual history is more extensive than yours and potentially that they've had sexual
intercourse, you need to work that out right now. Yeah. You need to work through the mindset of that possibility and and how you're going to respond and ask God to give you grace, ask him to heal the areas of self righteousness, potentially that are attached to the previous mentalities that put virginity on a pedestal and expectations that are unfair. Yeah. Do you know what changed it for me actually? In college, I had I was part of campus outreach. It's kind of like, you know,
Christ Crusade or some of these discipleship, really great amazing ministries. And the top dog of the whole region was talking about the haven't have this talk with his wife when they were engaged and going to get married. And he had to take around a picnic and and tell her, you know, what he's done before he's a Christian, especially. And when he told me this though, it was he was so vulnerable. And he was like, you know, it was a painful experience because he had though he had to
watch that on his partner's face, realized that he wasn't perfect. But what was really cool about that is I, I definitely saw a moment of like empathy for him because he wasn't proud of that when he communicated like the last thing that would have helped right there is her shaming him, bringing it up, holding it against him and said she she cried and still loved him and saw him for who he was that day. And he was leading a ministry. He was in a really great position changing a lot of
students lives. So she had the opportunity to see the past and hold that and her definition of him or see him for who he was that day. Yeah. That's really good, honey. Yeah. And here's the thing as we're talking about this for, you know, the person who's trying to work through these mindsets before they go into dating, maybe they put virginity on a pedestal or or for the person who is like me listening, who does have an extensive sexual past or sexual history, who was like worried about what
somebody might think of that sexual past. This is what I think I really want to communicate today, this message. Your sexual past is not the most important thing about you nor is it the most important thing about someone else? Your sexual past is not the most important thing about you and it's not the most important thing about someone else. And we that is something we need to rewire because it is taught from purity culture and from a lot of different angles that this is like
the pinnacle. Save this thing to marriage and you must be with somebody who also has done the same and it's like, wait a second. It's not the most important thing about us. Now what is
that who we are in Christ? Yeah. That Jesus, I think it's that Jesus blood is covering them and that they are in new creation on a new mission in life and that they are covered, you know, and fortunately, because what we'll talk about a little bit deeper is if we are all in the fine by our sexual background, then we have all, you know, fail and then we do different ways.
Yeah. And it's just it's not the most important thing about you or somebody else. It's just like we have to stop making it like the it thing, like the it factor, which goes into babe, what would you say to the person who who they have a deal breaker in their head of like somebody who has a sexual past, like they don't want to date or take it any further with a person once they find out their sexual past. That is like a deal breaker. Kind of like the guy to me, however he continued
to date me. Yeah. What would you say for the person who like won't date somebody because their sexual past or because or who breaks up with somebody because of their sexual past? Yeah, it's a great question. And I've said this a few times now. So this is for the people we can check the virgin box of no sexual intercourse. So if you feel like your partner being a virgin is a deal breaker to you. Yeah. My only question is, do you feel like you're walking into that relationship
with a perfect sexual background? Yeah. Like you've been perfect. Yeah. And if you can honestly say yes, then I admire you. And you're also a liar. You're also a liar because the reality is, as you go through, and this is what I love when Jesus in the first time I really learned this was he went through all 10 commandments with the Pharisees through his time. And he wrote because they
were like all about the 10 commandments. Oh, I've never committed adultery. You know, duh. Like I'm them, you know, and I'm I've never gotten angry, you know, externally and lashed out an anger. Like I'm kept I'm 10 for 10 every day, bro. And when he came in, bro, I'm good over here. But and what he taught them is I'm sorry, people, if you can check the box, it's great. And keep checking the box and keep saving that for marriage. I'm a huge proponent of saving yourself for marriage
because there's a lot more to it than just saving yourself for marriage. There's so much more behind it than that. But if if it is a deal breaker for you and you can check the box and you really are hoping and praying that the other person can, you can keep hoping and praying. But don't be disappointed when they when they come and they're not perfect. Because guess what? You are not perfect. And the second that you've looked at pornography, the second that you've you've looked
at an attractive person being attracted to another person is not. Yeah. Just be a sexual person. But if you want to play this, if you want to play it on the sexual playground, like and go tip for tat, you both are, you both have fallen short. Like you both have a background. And so you are not perfect. And so when you walk into that, I'm not trying to encourage you to find a less godly man or woman. Yeah, because sexual like your sexual past has nothing to do with it,
how godly you are today. Exactly. Man, that's another line. Your sexual past has nothing to do with how godly you are today. Yes. In this moment. Yeah. It's a fire. It is. It is worth getting fired up or because I think in the past, there's been a lot of people who have been dismissed because of their past. And if you are going to start dismissing people of your past, then guess what? Look in the mirror and dismiss yourself because we all are broken.
And we all have fallen short of that, you know, perfect, ethic and sex. Whether or not you can check the box or not. So just as much as you extend grace to yourself, you know, and can put yourself up on this self-righteous pedestal, because I'm speaking this from experience. I'm not, I'm not condoning you guys and saying, you know, beat yourself up because you're bad and broken too. It's just the sobriety that we are all broken and which is great. Yeah, which is great because
then we realize our need for a savior and our need for redemption or need for grace. And the second we can grasp that, we can extend it to others. But I cannot extend that to Kate and we'll get into a really good example later. I cannot extend it to Kate if I didn't accept it for myself. Yeah. Here's the thing, when you are dating someone instead of weighing their sexual past as like such this important factor that matters today, I want to encourage you to look instead at the fruits of
their life today. What is their relationship with Jesus? Who are they right now? Who are they focused on becoming? Because those are the things that matter ultimately. And also like if they do have past of any kind trauma, sexual past, what have they done to work through some of that healing? Like what have they done to work through some of those things? What is their relationship with God today? What are their friendships like today? And who are they becoming and committed to
becoming? Like their sexual past does not dictate their godliness today. The other factors do. What they're doing today and what they the work that they have done is really, really, really, that's much more important because we also talk about. I got to say this. Sorry babe. Like I dated guys that have zero sexual past that I'm like, what are the fruits of the spirit in your life? What kind of relationship do you have with Jesus? Who are you actually becoming? Like you're not the
most godly person just because you've never had sex. I see you doing nothing else over here. Like you're not actually becoming a disciple of Christ. You're just kind of sitting there and you're not growing in God in any way. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I totally know what you mean. And that's why I love the parable of the two debtors because if you guys remember, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and he said, there's two debtors. One of them owes a week's wages and one of them owes
a lifetime of wages. And they are both forgiven. Which one do you think is more grateful? I'm the forgiveness. And so the more where we are of that background and how much we're we are forgiven, the more grateful we are for this weekend, you know, what Christ has really done for us. And so I would say just like we say, age is not always an indicator of maturity. Sexual background is and past is not always an indicator of who they are today.
Definitely. And it's much more important that you see what they've done to acknowledge that. And the therapy or the redemption that they work in processing done is great. That's who they should be celebrated. That should be celebrated. Oh, wow. You have this background. And like, this is who you're today. How amazing. How wonderful. You must you must have learned a lot in that process. Your testimony must reach a ton of people, you know, who have looked to sex
and physical connections as their like salvation. Like, what a great testimony to speak to these these neighbors and these people and these other, you know, neighbors who've experienced the same thing. Like that is a testimony we're celebrating. Yeah. You know, I think this also though brings up just something as a caveat of like what if the person like had sex last year? Yeah. Oh, you asking me? Yeah. Yeah. I think we all make mistakes. We all make mistakes. And the reality is
is I think it's not to interrupt you. I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's okay. Ask the question that I have. Like it's a hard question. But I think the reality is it's coming again. Like even if they had a recent sexual past, that's the question. What about if they had a recent sexual past? I would still say like, who are they becoming today? What are they committed to? And are you guys on the same page with that, which will come into the next episode about what your sexual ethic is and your boundaries?
Because if that person did have sex last year, but then they like really were convicted about that and they realized, man, I that is not the path I want to be on. And I'm it's just not for me. Like that's not what I want to save sexual marriage. Then and they're on that path actively and they have different accountability in place for that. Yeah. Then I say that's fine. Again, who are they becoming today? And are you guys on the same page with your boundaries? You know, I have a good example.
Yeah. I had a very good friend who a couple years ago, he slipped up and he had sex with somebody within the community of the church community. And it was it was hard. It was he was a great friend. He was somebody who walked very closely in Christ with. He was my accountability partner. And I had a sense that something was happening. But he called me and he was distraught and he was pretty broken up about it and he admitted to it. And you know, it was so funny because
we really do love each other. He's a I love him. And when he told me that, it was definitely a fork in the road of I grew up in the South and the Bible, well, tough love, like consequences. You know, and it was really hard because I definitely had like this kind of fork in the road of decision of, you know, how should I approach this? Yeah. And I felt like Holy Spirit and what I was led to do was just extend grace because that's what he needed. He did not need more condemnation.
He did not need to be beat over the head because he already knew what he did was wrong. And it's actually the Holy Spirit's job to convict them. Not yours. That's it. It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict them. Not yours. And so now it's different if you're dating somebody and they're like, oh, yeah, sex is not a big deal. And that's not your sexual ethic. You're not on the same page.
You value different things. Yes. And that's where discernment is super important. You can listen to the way that they speak to their sexual experience and observe and just let them share it, which is, you know, is it a casual just yeah, it's a slasher. And then you're like, okay. Or is it I had sex last year? Yeah. And I really regret it. And God has spoken to me and taught me so much from that experience. Here are the triggers that led to that. Here's what I learned. Here's
where I made the wrong decisions. Here's where I try to cover up. And here's what I do now in my dating experiences to avoid putting myself in that situation. Yeah, that's great. What a difference. A difference. Right. Yeah. What a difference. And so when she shows humbleness, it shows a willingness to grow and learn that takes a lot of courage to share. A lot of courage, tons of vulnerability. And so I won't get to that example with Kate and I pretty soon. Yeah. But when this guy came to me,
it was the best decision ever because, you know, years later, we talk about experience. Because I share with him, you know, what I went through in that moment and how I responded. And he, what I like, he basically cried when we talk about it. And he was like, honestly, like, if you came with the other angle, like, I don't know what I would have done. But I can just tell you, like, that meant the world to me from you, you know, who I know was a virgin and his somebody who I really
respected and admired to hear that from you just meant the world. Yeah. And really encouraged me. And he's been sex free from that moment. Yeah. And back. Sex free sounds really. Sorry. He has not had sex, you know, again, since that moment, he's actually, I can't. He's, and now guess what? Funny enough, he's somebody that I admire and respect for how he sets and keeps physical boundaries. I mean, it's amazing. His story. Yeah. Like I really admire him and look to him for inspiration now. Yeah.
Isn't that funny? So let's talk about when somebody does share your sexual past, which, first of all, well, actually right after this, we'll talk about when to share it and how to share it. But when someone does share it with you, how should you react? And I want to tell a story about this because, like, there's actually an example in this. And it's a recent, more recent example with you,
babe. And where I actually shared with JJ something about my sexual history that I've rarely shared really at all that I've worked through with my therapist and talked about with my therapist. But I haven't really shared with many people. And honestly, I was, I was so nervous to tell you. I was like, because for me, it was like, man, like, there was still a little bit of shame around it. Like I had worked through it, but there was a little bit of shame. And so I, I told you about it.
And just the way you responded, the way you responded was like, all my fears of like, how is he going to respond? Is he going to judge me? Is he going to think this about me? Is he going to think that about me? Like, you just responded like so calmly, so peacefully without judgment. Like all these fears I had around it, because I had been thinking about it for a long time. I was like, I should really tell him this
before we get married, because we're engaged now in a law. And I was like, this is the time I would say this. And I really don't want to, but I was like, I have to. And yeah. And the way you responded, just like completely dismantled like all of my fears I had around how you would see me.
You know? And it was so, it was honestly so healing for me that I can look back at this thing and be like, okay, like even that experience of your response to me and intimacy was like, the further healing I even needed in that situation that I had already processed, you know? Yeah. But it's even more healing against any lingering shame where the enemy likes to keep us held.
You know? That's like it's sadly it's like the devil and the enemy's playground. And I would just encourage you guys every opportunity that somebody comes to you and just like my best friend or Kate in this example, every opportunity is an opportunity to extend grace and Christ's love forgiveness and redemption to them. And the inverse is true. It's still an opportunity for the enemy to plant lies, to cut down, to discourage and to bring shame. And which one do you want? Here's
a great question. Which one do you want to be an instrument of? Which one do you want to extend to the other person? And I think the big word, there's two of them, the R word is when somebody shares that kind of news with you, are you reacting or are you responding? Yeah, that's great. And what a difference. Yeah. Right. And I would just ask you, when you approach the throne and Holy Spirit has been convicting you and and you go to God the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit
to repent, do they react or do they respond? Yeah. And what love have you been extended? Yeah. So I would just encourage you guys with that. Anytime you have that opportunity to extend, it's like, which one do you want to err on? Do you want to extend on condemnation and and tough love? Which you know, yeah. And like when you have a close relationship with people, like Paul's very clear, like there are opportunities to to be firm to call people out. I mean, when there's repeated
patterns over and over sometimes as well. But you know, I just, I think, you know, this is going to be my wife. Which one do you think is more wise for me to do? You know, and she like when she comes to me like that. And I know it's been, we have been engaged, right? And we have known each other and dated for over a year. And she still hasn't told me. And she comes out gingerly and scaredly, you know, and with like her heart, like on her hand, it's like, what, what am I supposed to do
right there? Like what, you know, should I do? And so I think responding, yeah. And with a cherishment and love, you know, for them, because I don't see Kate for her sexual background. I don't see her for her any background ups. And I see her for who she is today and who she is in Christ. And I love her for that. I mean, it is so attractive. And we talked about the zoom call that we met. My first 30 minutes of Kate, I got about two minutes before the call where I was
checking her out. I was like, but the next 30 minutes was her talking about her testimony of self hate rejection in past. And I loved it. It was so attractive because of who she was today. An abuse and sexual abuse and physical abuse. Yeah. All of that. I was like, I want to hear it all. So he got to do my sexual history from the first day. Yeah, I knew. And I read her book, you know,
and so I knew it. I knew there was a lot there. I knew, you know, that comes with triggers and patterns and traumatic responses, even though I didn't have a lot of experience dealing, we'll definitely do a lot of that because I learned a lot, you know, on these patterns and responses. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about that because that does come with it. You know, we're not ignorant
and just saying it's all perfect. You know, like sexual past and background on both sides, you know, comes with like patterns and thought behaviors and triggers and responses, like the same for my background with the pornography. So both sides have to show a willingness to acknowledge their their past. Yeah. What they've done about it and, you know, what they've surrendered and what kind of systems and guardrails and boundaries and things they have in place. Yeah.
To avoid that same trigger and reaction. Yeah. So I love you, baby. Oh, I need you, baby. Hmm. So to conclude this episode, we're going to talk quickly about when to share sexual past and this will be fast, but you guys very clearly do not share it upfront. Like this needs to be shared in layers. Okay, this is very vulnerable stuff. And that the enemy can have a hold on
if you share it too early, I believe. I believe if you share everything too early, it's like the enemy is like, let me just insert shame and insert these false connections and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I would share it in layers for sure, not everything up front. And even if somebody asked you for those details, we've talked about this. You do not have to share. We talked about boundaries other week. This is in the most common boundaries. I don't think I shared this last time.
I knew a young guy who I was kind of walking through and on his like second date, he admitted to his pornography use and she did as well. And they were like bonded over this like vulnerability. Yeah. I've getting and that's like getting very emotionally naked. And he was like, dude, we're able to be so vulnerable with each other and like upfront. It's so safe. I was like, you're gags. I was like, bro, you did not just say those words. You did not just brag about
sharing that information on the second date. Oh my gosh. Everyone, we and go listen to our boundaries episode as well, over all about pace and boundaries because that's really important. I think a lot of what we share, like I would encourage you guys like really listen to more than one episode and what we've been sharing the last few weeks because they really layer on top of one another and you know, it's important. Like go back and listen to the episode on pace and boundaries
specifically. But if you are starting a situation where you see potential in someone, I mean, you can say I've had sex or I have a sexual past. Yeah. I look forward to sharing more of that with you through time. And that's it. Like period, dot end of sentence. And I would not really share much at all until the relationship stage. Yeah. I agree. And then I also don't think you have to disclose everything. And I would say you don't even have to disclose a lot of details until the engagement
phase. And some people like, I'm not going to tell you every sexual experience I've ever had. I'm not going to like be telling you that all in detail. Yeah. I just don't think it's necessary. And I think if it is shared, there's two things that happen. One is the, you know, if they are a person that's going to judge you on that and walk away, that's probably not a person who you probably should be with. And then two, it does create false intimacy and connection and way too
quickly. I mean, that's like sacred information and sacred personal information that should not be shared. It's pretty big emotional information. Now you can share again earlier if on I have a sexual past because that's what I've done when an in setting boundaries, which we'll talk about next week because part of when I'm sharing and setting my boundaries is like, I know myself, I know my past. I know what I know what is going to set me up for success based on what I desire
now in the future. And so because of that, because I know myself and because of my history, these are the things I need to put in place. Yeah, you can share it as a reference point. And this is why I'm doing the things I am today. I have a sexual past. So this is why I need to set this boundary in order to make sure I'm not putting myself in this position. Yeah. Because I have a history of making the wrong choice. For, yeah, of things that I don't want to do. Yeah.
That I've decided I don't want to do. Yeah. So babe, this has been a great episode. We're going to next week. You guys go into physical boundaries. Yeah. Thank you, honey, for all of what you spoke to today. Mm hmm. Well, I hope I love the fact that kid's story is her story and my story is mine. Because I think we get a really good taste of both sides. And I hope like whenever we are firm, and we say, you know, don't do this. We're not here to condemn you guys. We're seeing it because
we've experienced it. And we've also done the same thing. Yeah. And there's a lot of grace in those words to ourselves and the you guys. So if you have done it, I'm not shaming you. I'm just saying like it's not the right way to do it. Yeah. And we're called a higher standard.
Yeah. And there's, um, anytime there's that attitude of self-righteous and arrogance, I have, I'm trying to build more and more and more awareness because as a goody-good boy from the South, who was a Christian, you know, as a teenager and can check the Virgin Box, like I have to be very
unguarded for that self-righteousness because it's so easy to percolate. Like it's, it is an enemy's trick, you know, for anybody who has a goody-good background, like this is our Achilles Hills, self-righteousness and arrogance and believing that we are better than somebody else because we have not as of extensive, extensive as a sexual past when in fact ours is just hidden. And if that speaks to you, go read the parable of the, um, the son, you know, he ran away.
The prodigal son. The prodigal son. Thank you. And guess what? The story's not always about the prodigal son, even though we're all of us are the prodigal son in a lot of ways, but the story was for the Pharisees and the older brother who was at home sitting by the father who quote-unquote never ran away but was just as guilty as the prodigal son. Yeah. It's a good baby. I love you. I love you too. Thank you guys. We love you guys. Come watch us on YouTube. We are on YouTube now.
Wow. That's wild. So you get to see us in our matching sweatshirts, get to see our faces, get to see me fired up, get to see interruptions from the dog. We upgraded the rig. We have, I'm this my ghetto mic this week. I know. We're still blue collar of the people, but we upgraded the mic. We had a pause episode, made episode of Unpluged My Fridge so that we're still janky as heck. So we're never going to be the pretty ones, you know, with a perfect setup, but that
doesn't matter. But please watch us on YouTube and next week join us for an episode about physical boundaries. Oh yeah. Maybe we're full buzzwords. Oh my gosh. We'll see you next week guys. Love you guys. Bye bye. The Heart of Dating Podcast is created by Kate Wormen. It is a part of the Converge Podcast Network. Our incredible editor is the one and only Scott Carro. Our theme music was developed by the amazing Christian Ladou, special shout out to Andrii Maga and Gabriela Asperru
who make the show possible each week and help to keep me sane. If this is your first time listening to the podcast or if you've never written us a review or ranked us on iTunes, we'd encourage you to do so because it helps us so much to get this podcast into more people's ears. We launch our podcast each and every week on Wednesdays. So we'll see you next week.