Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast Hey, it's Kate! I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying?
Now let's get to the heart of the matter. Why hello there lovely people! Welcome back to The Heart of Dating Podcast. I'm so excited for this episode today because you guys, we are taking a break from our Heart of Dating Select episodes because I specifically could
not wait any longer to share the episode that we have for you today. You see my amazing girlfriend, Kat Harris, has been working on a book for the last few years and I have personally had the honor and privilege of walking next to her as I've watched her pour
her heart and soul into writing these words that debunk purity culture that dive into hard nuanced grade dialogues of sexuality, sexual desire, modesty, feminism, masturbation, physical boundaries and even what to do with your sexual desire when you are not having sex. It's been the biggest gift to walk alongside Kat on this journey because we actually were writing books the very same time and it's been just so fun and life giving to support
one another. I could not be more proud of her that right here and right now Kat's very first book Sexless in the City, a sometimes sassy, sometimes playful, always honest look at dating, desire and sex is out right now in the world you can get it wherever books are sold. So today on the podcast, Kat and I have the ultimate sex talk as we discuss some hot topics when it comes to sex, sexual desire, purity culture, modesty, boundaries and so
many other things. It's basically all of your hot topic sex questions answered in one place. We couldn't even cover everything so that's why you're going to have to get her book to even find out more but I promise you you're going to love what you have for even store today on the episode. Kat Harris is a Brooklyn based online educator, a digital content creator and a female empowerment advocate. She loves God, a good Beyonce dance party
and has an affinity for ranch dressing. Her vision is for women to know their beauty, identity and value. She has a BS in biblical studies from Dallas Baptist University and is co-founder of the online publication The Refined Woman and the host of the Refined Collective Podcast. She has also been a full-time photographer for the last decade with her work being featured in Benadie Fair, GQ, Forbes, People, Who What Wear, US Weekly and Glamour
UK. She believes in the power of story that done is better than perfect, quality triumphs quantity and that every opportunity is an opportunity for growth if we choose for it to be. The vehicles for her message are her podcast, online courses, written articles, hosted leadership development workshops, speaking at conferences and so many other things. It's become a bigger passion in her life than she ever could have imagined. Now Kat is not
a new person here. You guys know, Kat is one of my very good friends and we have partnered on so many different things, which is why I honestly could not be more thrilled to have her on the podcast today to talk about her book. Her book, Baby, that she has literally poured her heart and soul and story and vulnerability into. You guys, her brand new book Sexless in the City is out right now and I could not speak more highly of it. You need this book
if you have ever been damaged by purity culture. If you've ever questioned your sexual desire or if it's a good thing or if you have all the shame attached to it that you know needs to be debunked, well Kat's book is going to help you through all of those things. She so beautifully uses theology weaved in with her story and it is powerful. Let me tell you guys it's so powerful, transformative and impactful. Alright, so without further ado, let's dive into this conversation with one of my very
good friends, Kat Harris. Okay, we have Kat Harris on the podcast. Girl, welcome back. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, Kate, do you think you're hard of dating crew is sick of me yet? No, I hope not. I hope not. If they are, then I'm sorry, y'all. You need to buckle up because this is a whole new conversation for Kat and I. I am so excited. However, I was thinking back at to our first interview ever on Heart of Dating and we did talk about
being like sexless in the city a little bit. I mean, I was thinking about that, but this is free. You writing the book. Yeah. Wow. Oh, how the turn tables. I know. No idea three years ago when you came on that like this would be the book that you are now writing today, right? Or that you friend. So crazy. You as well. I mean, your book just came out. I mean, so I think one thing that's so fun about our stories is just how God just aligned us in friendship
at such a pivotal point in both of our lives. We start our podcast within a few weeks of each other. We get our book deals within a few weeks of each other. Yeah. And here we are. We date. We both go to each other. We both have free cats on each other. We support each other. And yeah, I'm just so. Our names are like only one letter apart between Kate and Kat, right? Like Kat and we sometimes share an assistant kitty. Yeah. So Kate, Kat, kitty. Oh my gosh. We all basically have the same name.
They're all like derivatives of each other. That's I mean, you said this. I think at my book lunch party, you're like, we're probably going to get married the same month. You know, like, I think I just we're I'm calling it right here. It's on public record on heart of dating Kate, or man and Kat Harris will be getting married. Let's just say the same month. Because I definitely I want to be able to go to your wedding, you know, yeah, we're going to get
married on the same weekend. But that wouldn't be kind of us, you know? Yeah, I'm going to your wedding too. I'm already inviting myself. Well, Kat, I'm so so pumped for our conversation today. You know, you've been on the show before. People are familiar with you, but I'm really, girl, I could not be more freaking excited about your book and for people to get this in your hands, which while we're launching this episode, your book has just been released into the world. I am like
so so so excited. All the countless hours I know you've spent and poured over researching this book and diving into the depths of your own story to write it. And we've talked about it. The whole journey book writing is not easy. And especially not easy, like I wrote a book like on rejection, who wants to write a book on rejection. But then you you wrote a book about sex and sexuality and one of the biggest hot topics in the church, I would say, you know, so okay, how you feeling about
it? Tell us what the name of the book is and how you're feeling now that it's out. Yeah, so the book is called Sexless in the City. A sometimes sassy, sometimes painful, always honest look at dating, desire and sex. And oh my gosh, how do I feel it? It's out in the world. I feel wonderful. I am freaking out. I feel like I'm walking around the street naked all the time. That's the
whole whole it feels. I feel excited at the idea of people plighting with the book and experiencing freedom from shame, experiencing digging into their own stories and the own narratives that they were given about sexuality and gender roles and things like masturbation, all the things. I my, basically how I live my life, you know this Kate, if there's an elephant in the room, we're talking about that elephant. So this is this book, maybe it should be called, I don't know,
the room of the room of elephants room. The elephant, sort of, the elephant's being exposed. Yes, exactly. Any sort of hot button question that I had about God and sex and everything in between I really unpack in this book. So I feel relieved that it's out there and excited. But also, it's just it's vulnerable. You know that. It's so, so much. Oh my gosh, so vulnerable and
incredible. And I just commend you watching you write this book and now having had a chance to actually read the book like I could not be more proud of you and could not be more of an advocate to say everybody listening, you need to get this book. There is so much pain, so much shame, so much nuance to these conversations around sex and our sexual desire and it's just oh girl, like it is,
I only touched on it a very little bit in my book. And so, and but like even the chapter I wrote on sexual shame just made me so excited about this topic because it's so nuanced and layered and you just unpack it so beautifully in your book. So before you get into this really amazing conversation we're about to have, I want to read something that you wrote in your introduction, which I think really just sets the stage for our conversation today and a little bit about your
heart for writing this book. So I'm going to read what you wrote. I was sick of hearing mostly male pastors teach about waiting until marriage to have sex and doing it God's way when most of them got married in their early 20s and had no idea what it was like to actually abstain from sex for decades. I was even more sick of many male pastors telling me to live a life of purity when behind closed doors they themselves weren't. It's not that what they were saying wasn't necessarily true.
It's just they had no idea what it was really like to date and be single in today's culture. And to be frank I wanted to hear from someone who is actually single in her 30s or beyond walking the walk. So Kat girl that is exactly what you did okay. Oh my gosh we're doing it we're doing it
it's happening. But also I think people listening are like yes amen. I mean how many pastors do we hear who are like I don't know 40 50 who are like yes abstain from sex and I got married at 21 right gosh yes oh my gosh cool and yes I oh my gosh can I just say something that we you'll
probably gonna have to take out okay great so here it is even in that I recently heard a sermon from a woman who got married really young and she said that even holding hands with someone that doesn't end up being your husband can be something that is simple and then I found out she got married
when she was a teenager and then I was like oh okay well you don't get to tell me what I can and can't do because I'm 35 here folks and so yeah I think so much of the heart behind what I wanted to do was let's actually hear from people who are walking this out for me this
book isn't just theology it's not theory it's my life I am 35 years old and I am still currently single and I think I mean so much has happened in the last few years we are in the heels of the Me Too movement the the heels of a pandemic the heels of the BLM movement and there's we have this
pressure cooker right now and then on top of that yeah throughout the pandemic pastor after pastor being exposed for addiction and I just something didn't break in me but I feel as though something has awakened in me in the last few years of we have to have honest conversations
about sex and desire and dating that's rooted not in shame or not in fear or condemnation like so much of the purity culture and so much of the church message is but with empathy and with nuance and with approaching each other with kindness and also having space for each other to seek god
in this area of our lives I think we were given a big set of rules you know don't touch his butt don't have sex girls wear fingertip length shorts and then that was that and I think we're living right now in the fallout of of what happens when we're given a set of rules that are often
rooted in shame in hopes of producing conformity like that doesn't work the Jesus way is love and relationship and story that propellants transformation yeah actually that's one of my question so maybe we can impact that more but how does the way of Jesus differ from what popular culture
and the church offer in regard to our identity and sexuality because you just touched on it but this is so pivotal like the way of Jesus is different from popular culture but also from even what the church in many ways is offering what do you think absolutely and I think what Jesus always did
Jesus always get Jesus is the king of the third option yeah Jesus was constantly saying things like you may have heard it said this but I say to you this that was sort of the repeated thought throughout the sermon on the mount and what Jesus was doing was acknowledging the cultural and
societal norms and acknowledging the the religious norms the norms from Hebrew and Jewish culture and then he was saying okay so that was that and that was that and now here's my way so Jesus is always acknowledging almost the extreme side of both pendulums and then stepping somewhere in
the middle or somewhere all together new or in the gray or in the nuance and so when I really began to see that that was the way of Jesus was stepping into the nuance and layers and stepping into relationship and leading with love then I said okay so what's the what's the current message
of culture yeah and it seems as though the current message of culture is that let's do what feels good let's live our truth if it if you're hungry eat it if you want to have if you want to have sex go get it go swipe on that app and get what you want get yours and and it doesn't feel good
then just if it once you're done with it you're done with it and you dispose of it really quickly right right and I think we also have this message of instant gratification um I want what I want when I want it and I want it yesterday and I'm entitled to have it that way we're such a culture
of wanting things right now and so I think all of this produces an ethos saying the message underneath those messages are I am my desire that's who I am I'm led by my desire I my desire is driving the ship and so basically underneath that is that I am the sum of my urges so if I
want to have sex then that's what I have to do that's what I get to do so cultural message I believe is one that says I am my desire now the other side of that pendulum would be I believe to be the the message of the church which often the church message has been to no matter what shut
down your desire your desire is bad your body is bad shut everything down put it in a nice little neat box on a shelf and then one day that may or may not ever happen on your wedding day take that box out flip that switch and all of a sudden she must be a lady in the street but a freaking the bed
right and so the the culture is screaming do what do whatever you want lead with your desire and the church says shut down your desire and I think in that what both parties have done is made sex ultimate so culture it's it's overt right like we know sex cells but the church is a little bit
more subtle and why do I think the message of the church often revolves around sex well because we try so hard not to make it a thing that we've made it the thing yes you know what I mean it's yes we say don't think about a purple hippo don't think about a purple hippo the only thing I'm
going to think about is the purple hippo a purple hippo and so I actually think the message of the church and the culture actually aren't too far from each other one just has different PR and one leads with shame and the other says there's no shame but we actually have two sides at
the same point yeah and then I think what the how the way of Jesus differs as we go very we go back to the Genesis story of the of creation and Genesis 126 through 31 God says let us make humans an hour image an hour likeness and distinct from everything else in creation God makes
humans like God that doesn't mean we are God that's pantheism but it means that we have the divine God image in us and then when God created humans as opposed to saying we are good everything else in creation was good humans were very good so we have a if you distinct things going on
one is that there's a distinction between animals and humans why is that important because animals are actually the sum of their desires yeah you are you go after the sum of your urges but in the Genesis account we see humans are distinct from animals in that way so actually I am not my
identity I'm actually and then also I'm not the absence of my desire the God message the Jesus message is the beginning the core of the stories that I am a child of God that's who I am that's my identity my identity isn't my desire or the lack thereof it's that I made an image of God and
God called me very good and so what what what that what we see in that is that God and it creates us to be compartmentalized beings because we see an Old Testament in the Shema and in the New Testament to love our love the God love our God with all of our heart soul mind and strength
so there's a holistic invitation to love God there and so that means that my sexuality in my desire isn't who I am but it is a part of the human experience so I think the way of Jesus is that first and foremost my identity is not my sexuality my identity is that I made an image of
God and secondary to that that part of being a human is being a sexual being and it's not the absence of that so then if that's true there has to be a way that regardless of relationship status we can embrace being a sexual being regardless of our relationship status yeah that's that's the
part I mean you just broke it down so beautifully but you hear a lot of pastors are like sex is great it's so beautiful it's wonderful in marriage so don't have it before marriage because if you do you will die I mean they don't they at that dramatically but that is like the messaging and then you
hear it they're like sex is so great and I'm like okay but again it's like are we supposed to just flip a switch how does this happen so that begs the question how do we start and I love this next question I'm about to ask you because you and I have talked about this like personally in our
own lives like at length like even as single women in our 30s like how do we do this so you know that's the person listening I think if I get one major question on this other than what should be my boundaries with somebody it's you know what do I do with my sexuality my sexual desire if I
am deciding to not have sex before marriage what do I do how do I come into oneness with my sexual desire in this time so that it's not compartmentalized and shoved down but so that it also it doesn't become you know the way of culture which is like I'm accessing it and therefore I have no control
over it you know what is that what how do we do it oh my gosh I'm just so glad that we're having this conversation I think it's so needed and I think before we kind of get to the practical I need to unpack a few things yeah and the first is there's a difference between sexual desire and
desire for sex but often in the church and in culture we've made them one in the same so we've said sexual desire is desire for sex and sexuality can only be expressed or the ultimate expression of sexuality is sex sex and orgasm and so I think when we have when we have that view
of sexuality I think it puts so much pressure on us that the only way the only thing we can do with all of this angst all of this desire all this passion for sexual desire and desire for sex the only way for that to be expressed is through this one act oh my gosh so much pressure
kind of how so many of us put so much pressure on finding the one oh my gosh we put all that pressure on the one that that one person will never be able to live up to our expectations right so I think the first thing we have to do is zoom out and expand our vision for what sexuality is
so one of the things I like to say is that if sexuality were a book sex and physical intimacy would be one chapter hmm wow so then what is sexuality if is if it isn't just sex and what what is it well an incredible book is redeeming sex by Deborah Hirsch and in it she offers that sexuality
is the human desire that we all have to connect outside of ourselves with other people that means that okay yeah body parts touching is a part of that like that's the thing within us that gets us outside of ourselves to want to go make out with our person or want to go have sex
that is sexuality but it's actually just a much bigger and broader desire to connect outside of ourselves with other people it's that thing in us that says you know it maybe I won't watch another maybe I won't do a 12 hour Netflix binge today maybe I'll go and hang out with those
people so sex shoes that's why I say if sexuality were a book sex and physical intimacy would be one chapter so then how do we embrace our sexual desire and how like when we feel turned on or there's natural urges and just to get real practical Kate I think a few things and I'll kind of go through
these quickly but I would say number one acknowledge your desire don't pretend that it's not there okay wow I'm feeling turned on right now I'm feeling my sexual desire acknowledge it and then express gratitude for your sexual desire wow God thank you so much for creating my body in such a way
that it feels things God thank you so much that you created sexual desire that you created my body and that it operates in such a unique way thank you so much and so I think why it's so important to start with the acknowledgement and the gratitude is because from the get go we're saying shame
you have no you have no space in this conversation and so then after that I allow allow those feelings to activate intercession and prayer in your life sexual desire was created by God and so in that there's something even in that that reflects the God image so activate intercession
intercession what comes up for you when you feel turned on what do you want do you does it make you want to have sex does it make you want to get married does it make you want to go dance on a table whatever it is and talk to God about that God is the creator of the whole thing and I think
historically I know I felt so much shame over my sexual desire for so long that it was like the thing I didn't want to talk to about God because I was like oh this is embarrassing but actually it's not at all embarrassing because God made it and then outside of you know I don't want to just
say well if you embrace your sexuality just pray about it guys let's get even more practical a huge way to embrace your sexuality is to start practicing the art of being present in another term for the practice of being present in a life to your senses is sensuality
and I think often for me I thought oh sensuality means like wearing sexy nightgowns and triangles like oh oh yeah it's so sexual oh my gosh it can be that it can be that but really is the practice of being present in the practice of being alive to your senses and so if that is the more expansive view of sexual or sensuality let's think about in the bedroom what makes it One of the things that makes a sexual experience pleasurable and beautiful is the discipline to be present.
So not thinking about, oh my gosh, I need to pay those bills today. But no, let me be present in this moment. So how can we practice sensuality outside of the bedroom? I think number one way, put your phone away. Put your phone away. Be present to the moment at hand. I think we are such a distracted culture. We don't know how to be present. Yeah. I mean, I speak this even to myself when I ask this question, when was the last time you watched a TV show and didn't check your phone at least once?
I never. The same. I'm like, oh my gosh, I constantly challenge myself with that. Another way to practice sensuality is host a dinner and invite friends over and have everyone leave their phones in a bowl at the door and then be present with each other enjoying the senses of a beautiful dinner, good wine, good music, the smell of candles being lit in the room and just the presence in the aroma. I love that.
Yeah. So being present and then I think two more practical things is sex makes babies, right? Yeah. Like, that's a byproduct of sex. And so let's again zoom out of that. What's the principle there is that sex is this ultimate form of collaboration and intimacy with another human being that has the possibility of creating new life in the world.
So in that with my sexual desire, I can have this passion and eroticism for life that leads me to connect with other people and create new things and put them out in the world. You and I are connected to our sexual desire right now because we are in collaboration creating a new conversation and putting it out in the world. So what's something you want to do? Do you want to start a podcast? Do you want to start a nonprofit? Do you want to have dinner parties? Do you want to start a band?
Have a passion for a life that leads you outside of yourself to connect with other people and put new things out there in the world. And then finally, another huge way that we experience pleasure in the bedroom is to practice embodiment. And what I mean by that is going from your head to your heart.
Now again, part of this experience of being in the moment and being connected to our being present is saying, okay, I need to like leave my to-do list at the door and be connected to my body so that then I can be connected to this other person's body. So then how do we practice embodiment and how do we do that outside of the bedroom? Really practically working out yoga, practicing breath work, boxing breathing, dancing, having dance parties.
Literally, and I know you and I have both done this, Kate is like, oh my gosh, I'm so in my head right now, I need a step away from my desk and do the class. Exactly. I love it. You know, or I'm just going to put on some Beyonce music and dance. And it's like I get into my body and then things maybe the thing I was stuck on actually becomes more clear. Yes. Yeah, I know I just through I feel like I'm trying so hard to get through so much content
in such little time. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm hoping people are taking notes. I'm listening and nodding my head over here because for me and this journey I'm even walking alongside of you and being friends with you and working on my own journey to move through some of these layers like, yeah, what does it look like to be more in body? What does it look like to be more in touch with my body yet?
And a huge thing you and I have talked about this year is just trusting your gut. And in order to do that, you have to be connected to your body. You have to know what your body is saying. And in order for me to be able to do that, it's what does it look like to breathe? What does it look like to notice the sensations in my body? And all of those things are part of what you're talking about as well. And it's it's so beautiful
when we start on that process. But what's sad to me and it's so weird to me is that we have just on the side note here as Christians, we've like put taboos on these words. Like even embodiment, people have taboos on that word. You know, it's like, oh my gosh. I mean, and even with mental health, like people put taboos on that. I'm like, what a beautiful thing though to be to remove these taboos and say, why are they even there? Is that is that really what God desired for us to
like put a label on whatever thing it is? And I think what you're doing in your book, cat, is you're inviting people into a space to say, hey guys, yeah, you believe this black and white
narrative for so long. And it's so much more gray and nuance and beautiful than we've made it, you know, and there's an ability to actually step into the gray also with practicality, like you're saying right now, which I think is so helpful because we do need direction in how to actually, you know, deconstruct, but then how do we live it out as you're talking about? Yes. And I think you made such a good point, Kate, that I wanted, I forgot to say something.
It can feel what do we, what do it can feel weird? What does embodiment even mean? So let me just make it real practical there. When we believe this idea that we need to shut down our desire until one day when part of what happens is we shut down part of what it means to be human, right? And so in that we compartmentalize the human experience. When we compartmentalize ourselves, so when I put my, of my little box on the shelf of careers over here, relationships are over here,
friendship is over here, who I am at church is over here. We have all these different personas. Essentially what we're doing is disassociating from our bodies. Yeah. Wow. So we hear that word
disassociation. That's what's happening when we compartmentalize as we're disassociating. And so embodiment is kind of going back to this invitation of love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength instead of just over here with your mind when you're a Bible study, worship God just over here when you're with your friends that you only talk about this stuff when you're there. No, like the invitation of Jesus is to be embodied to have this holistic experience.
And so when we talk about even just breathing, like put a, put a time run for three minutes and just inhale for four counts and exhale for four counts. And maybe inhale the word B and exhale the word still from the verse and still a note that I am God. And notice what happens when you just have a few minutes where you are focusing on your breath. God exhaled creation into existence and
then breathed the breath of life into humanity. So when we pause and get out of our heads and focus on our breath and our body, we're connecting to the whole reason why we even exist is because of our breath and God breathing the breath of life into us. Yeah, wow. So good. All right, friends. So as a woman who's actually been abused and taken advantage of in the past, coupled with also being a woman who has lived in bigger cities, I always want to make sure that I
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about masturbation. I love this chapter and we don't have time to go into the depth of this, though you did an incredible talk on this in our single.com conference earlier this year, which was so good. You dove in for I think 40 minutes. I was like, yes girl, you gave like a key note. It was amazing. You came so prepared and I just love I was here for it. Okay, I love it. But as we're talking about this, I kind of want to boil it down because masturbation is
obviously a very taboo word. And I just want to kind of go in the direction of you and I have talked about this when you have the desire to want to masturbate, for example, maybe there's something else underneath that. Can we can we break that down because I think that would be helpful for people listening. I think it is it's unfair to say that if you're a Christian, you're never going to have the the desire to masturbate, right? Like, yeah. One of the again, one of the most
human experiences is to feel sexual desire and to feel around the world to feel turned on. And I think that's why even in the previous question, you asked me, how do I embrace my sexuality? The first thing I do is acknowledge it, express gratitude for it and then bring it to God. So then when I have the physical desire to masturbate, then let me acknowledge that desire. So instead of shaming that desire, instead of from right outside of the gate saying, you gross,
I shouldn't want to do that. We're shaming ourselves and then we shame ourselves. And when we say we shouldn't want something, we dismiss the reality of where our heart actually is. So first, acknowledge that desire, bring God into it. God, I'm really feeling like I want to experience pleasure and I want to experience self pleasure. How then do I want to move forward? And God, is there an invitation for me here? And I think from there, we get to be curious.
Why do I feel turned on right now? Is it because I just watched a bunch of porn? And I want to escape into the fantasy land of my mind and experience pleasure that way. Am I wanting to masturbate because I'm not wanting to deal with something in my life. I'm feeling stressed and this has become a coping mechanism for me. Am I wanting to masturbate because I'm having a little bit of social anxiety going to that party? And I have a habit now that, okay, I'll feel better or I'll be able to be
more present if I masturbate before going out with friends. Four is that, oh, it's actually just a Tuesday afternoon. And I'm feeling the very normal human experience of being turned on. And I want to experience pleasure. I think when we pause and get curious about the why, then we can, from a more authentic place, answer the question of, is masturbation a sin in this moment for me? Because you and I have talked about it. Scripture actually isn't specific about masturbation. Yeah.
Yeah. It's specific about lust. And I am not necessarily convinced that masturbation is mutually exclusive with lust, fantasy, or pornography. And so I think it's why we have to have need to pause and say, how did I get here? And we need to do everything, right? So, oh, man, I want to, I'm bored right now. I want to open up Instagram. Well, it's one thing to be on Instagram for five minutes. And then you're like, well, I've been on Instagram for, or the, when Apple sends you your daily
average of, oh, wow. Man, I averaged eight hours a day this week. Okay. So, Instagram is an evil. Netflix isn't evil. Alcohol isn't evil. No, no, those things aren't evil in and of themselves. But it's the heart, which I approach each of those things. So I actually don't think masturbation is much different. I think there can be ways where we can experience and explore our bodies in a way that we don't escape to fantasy, land or porn or lust or numb out.
I don't think that's always the answer. I think it's definitely a possibility. Yeah. But I think just there are ways that we can drink alcohol and it be a beautiful experience. I think there's also ways that we can experience pleasure and it also be a connected experience. Yeah. Yeah. And just be a vulnerability moment here for everyone who's listening. Like, yeah, you guys, as a single woman in my 30s, this, I am not, I am in this like conversation. Like a meaning that I
struggle with this for sure. And this has been something I've wrestled with where in the past, I've been like, oh, my gosh, I have that desire. That's so dirty. That's so gross. Like, and I remember a few years ago, I found out a friend of mine was really struggling with it. And she was like, I'm trying to take a year off of touching myself at all. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, how, why are you even doing that? Not like, why are you taking the year off? Like,
why are you so tempted by it? Like, it was odd for me because I had put so much in a box. And in more recent years, it has become more of a struggle for me. And what I've noticed in the moments where I may feel tempted and that desire comes up, I've asked the questions that you're saying, cat, like, what am I really desiring here? Is it that I just feel, want to feel seen? I want connection. I want intimacy of some kind. And what would it look like to maybe call a friend right
now and just share with them? Like, hey, I feel disconnected today. And can I just, can we just have a conversation? Or what would it look like to just tell a friend of mine? Like, hey, I am just, I feel sad that I haven't gotten physical touch in a while. Can we, I just have a hug with you?
You know, like, whatever it is, but seriously, for me, sometimes it comes down to those of the things my heart is really desiring, that's the need underneath some of the layers and that I, in the past, would have just shamed myself and never actually got to the core root of what the actual need was underneath some of the desire, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think it's just important to kind of go back to where one person might land is going to be
different than another person. So should I ever take a sip of alcohol because I may become an alcoholic should master me because it might lead to fantasy land, right? Or my addiction. For one person, that may be like, oh my gosh, alcoholism runs in my family and I don't even want to go there. Right. So no, I'm not going to ever have alcohol for another person. It's my, oh, yeah, I'm going to try this alcohol thing out and maybe they find out, you know what? Wow,
I actually am an addict. Yeah. And so I'm going to, I'm going to completely abstain from this. You might have other people who are able to have one or two drinks and drink socially and it's can be a beautifully connective community experience. Is any, are any one of those people wrong? Are any one of those not seeking God? No, it just means that we are different people on different journeys with different thresholds. So I think let's ask ourselves the same questions when it comes
to conversations like masturbation. Yeah. So freaking good. And for anyone listening, we'll have to do some more follow ups on this topic too. But Kat, I know I just want to point people also to your podcast and of course your book because you did a series on your podcast about masturbation, a two-part series which blew up. I think it broke the internet. I listened to both episodes more than once. I was like, this is so good. You also talk about it in the single.com prints. And of course you
talk about it in your book. So I just, there's so much we could go continue to unpack here. And I wish we had the time to. But I think we, we covered so many good healthy things. But I want to give people the opportunity to dive in deeper with some of those other resources. So we're not leaving them hanging as we go on to the next question. Yeah. We can link to the masturbation series. Yeah. I have a whole long, long chapter about masturbation and orgasms and all the things in my
the oh word. Oh my gosh. You just said the other word. We said the n word, the oh word. I mean all the things. We joke about that. But like when people look us up on the internet, they're like here. They're like cat Harris. And it's like she talks about masturbation. It's like well. Very interesting. Okay. So in the very little time that we have left cat, I just want to briefly talk about modesty. And again, I think there's so much we can say here. But I love in your
book that you make the nod to, you know, modest as hottest. And it, it flashed me back to when I was 16. I remember I was going on some sort of like mission trip to middle, middle beach. And I was totally fine wearing a bikini. Like my mom also let me do that. But they were like, no, you have to wear one pieces or tankinis. And when I went to pick out the tankini, because even with the
tankini, some of your midriff may show. So even so because I had, you know, a longer torso, I had to make sure that my tankini was long enough that not even like a little centimeter of my stomach was showing. And so I'm just going to read one more thing from your book here because it's so powerful. You said, it makes me wonder, do we have such a low view of men that we think them incapable of self control? And do we think men are so beneath women that they are stunted and
unable to take responsibility for their own sexual desire and integrity? I happen to believe that when God created humanity, he created both men and women equally with dignity and honor. Men are just as capable, strong and competent as women. Let's stop blame shifting and start empowering the men in our lives to be the men of vision and integrity. We know God created them to be. Let's give them back what was theirs all along, the autonomy to take ownership over their sexuality.
It's no wonder carrying the weight of male sexual purity has felt so crushing. It was never ours to carry. Okay, girl. Yeah, girl, you freaking wrote that. Okay. I'm like reading it right now. Like I feel empowered. I'm like, let me just standing ovation to that. It is not talked about enough. And I briefly make a nod to the same point in chapter three where I'm like, man,
how diminishing is it? And almost a humanizing of a man for me to say, for us to say like that he has no control at all of his sexual desire or his sexuality at all. So much so that it's a woman's job to mitigate all of the lust. And my story goes that this actually led me, these kinds of narratives of it's my job to make sure the brother doesn't stumble.
It really, it led me, unfortunately, and very sadly and painfully into being sexually assaulted and blaming myself for that experience because I was like, well, it must be because I let him on. It must be because I did something where I wore something or maybe I was asking for and all those narratives. And I believe that for years and years and years and it was actually really hard for me to even say that this was sexual assault and rape because I believed that because
it was so inherent in the things I was being taught. So let's break this down. Just a little bit here. I think it's time that we debunk this narrative. I love my listeners, but I know there's a lot of people that they throw around the word modesty and I'm like, oh my gosh, because there's so many different experiences with that word. So share with me a little bit about how do we
re-empower men and women to be able to reframe modesty? Yeah. Well, first, I think even when we talk about men having such a low view of men and saying, oh, well, essentially boys will be boys, right? What are we saying underneath them? Underneath that. That is the narrative that we are the sum of our urges and that men specifically are the sum of their urges. So what are we saying? Boys and men are actually animals. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Earlier in our conversation, that's not the way
of Jesus. So actually, I'm distinctly human. Male and we are distinctly human. So what happens with this conversation of modest as hottest or putting the crushing weight of male sexual integrity on the shoulders of women is we dehumanize men and we oppress women. So we've flattened both the male and female experience of what it is to be a human made in the image of God. And I think what has happened is both church and the culture has hypersexualized the female body and they've made
male less a woman's issue. As opposed to like you just mentioned, empowering men to taking responsibility and ownership over how they show up in the world and their sexual urges. And like you just mentioned, there's only a short step from, oh, well, boys will be boys. So women you cover up, it's a short step from there to she was asking for it, which is what promotes rape culture, silencing women, imbalanced sexual experiences in the bedroom. And that is in my opinion,
completely unbiblical out of alignment with the heart of God. And so in that, do we throw modesty out the window? I would say not necessarily an incredible book to read is called a return to modesty by Wendy Charlotte. She's a Jewish philosopher and she wrote basically her, she was a big ol' feminist in the 90s. And essentially her big feminist moment was saying that actually one of the most empowering, freeing thing a woman can do is to cover herself or cover her body.
And I will say that this book is so, it's actually, there's some of it that I'm like, oh, I don't know if I agree with this. Because it's like very intense, but it gives a very interesting feminist perspective of how modesty could actually be an empowering thing. So for me, it's less about a conversation of modesty and more conversation of how can both parties, how can humans, how can we honor each other with even our clothes? And so for that, I think that clothes has to do with context,
context, presence, and heart. So context, is it, is it a win for me to wear a bathing suit when I'm at the beach? Yeah, totally. Yes. Now, I preach on a Sunday, am I bikini? No, no, I wouldn't do that. Would I wear a skewed skirt and a sassy blouse out to go dancing? Yeah, you bet. Would I wear that same thing to a job interview? No. And that's not me living a duplicitous lifestyle. That's me taking
into consideration the context of the environments that I'm in. No, I think the second thing is presence. When we talk about the clothes we wear, I think I sometimes, I don't know, it's like you can wear an outfit or to me, I always think about the brush strap falling down my shoulder. Yes, I remember you said that in your book chapter. I was like, yeah, there's been so many times where I'm like, this
was not the wisest thing for me to wear because I'm distracted by it. And if I'm distracted by it, other people are probably distracted by it. Exactly. Exactly. And Wendy Shalant in her book kind of talks about in the sense of how can we allow ourselves to be present to the moment at hand and not distracted by whether or not we may or may not be having a wardrobe malfunction. And I thought that was a really profound thing for me. And then heart, what's the motivation of your heart?
Why do you want to put the picture of yourself in the bikini? Is it because you're really deep down wanting affirmation from someone else or you're wanting someone to think, oh man, she looks sexy in that. Or are you showing up and you're feeling confident and you feel good and you're wearing this thing because you feel beautiful in your own skin? It's been used as a tool of oppression. But I think it can have an opportunity when we consider the context of the situation.
Is this thing a distraction? And what is the heart behind everything I'm doing? Let's talk about it like that as opposed to your bad, you're wrong. It's your fault. So cover your body like that. That's not empowering to anyone. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where it comes down to the intention. Like, why am I doing said thing? Am I wearing this because I'm seeking attention? Am I wearing this
because I need the affirmation? Am I posting this because I want all the likes and I'm like, if I get more likes on this photo, it's because people think I'm good looking and that makes me validated and that makes me feel like my identity is solid. What are we trying to get from the things that we are doing and the things that we are wearing? You say this quote in your book, modesty isn't about a set of a set list of dos and dones. It's about a posture of the heart and the expression of
love, love and kindness toward all people. I'm like, man, that's so beautiful and it's freeing and it, you know, it takes the ownership to the individual for us to look inwards and, you know, God looks at the heart. That is it, you know, and so it's like, well, what is my intention in
wearing this or doing said thing? You know, like, it really, it's about me and my own specific intention and then also, you know, we're living in love and kindness with other people and what does that look like to be aware of the context of how I'm showing up and what I'm wearing in those
scenarios? I think in all of it, what you and I are talking about is let's approach all of this stuff, whether it's the clothes I wear, whether I do or do not have sex outside a marriage, whether I do or do not want to have a sleepover at his house, whether I do or do not want to masturbate,
whatever it is, let's approach it with a posture of humility and curiosity and nuance. And in that, when we get curious, then we can add in a way that's like, oh, not out of legalism, but God, I really want to know your heart because God cares about our hearts, not just behavior modification. Yeah, that's so good. Kat, there is so much more we can go into, but I'm just going to basically lead everyone to get your book because in your book, you go into even more. You do talk
about boundaries. You do break a breakdown Ephesians 5. You do talk more about masturbation. So many
things that we didn't even get into today. So you guys, if you're listening and you're like, this was intriguing and challenging and life giving and encouraging and helpful, then you need to get Kat's book like literally right now and buy it for your friends, especially if you know anyone who just is so disconnected from themselves or feels so much shame or potentially grew up in the purity culture like, yeah, get this book for a friend and give it to them because I think
collectively we all need to have these conversations right now. It's so important, especially a single woman. So Kat, I'm going to ask you the final question and then you know, you could tell us all the places that people can connect to you, but the final question, which you already know it, but what is your final nugget of dating advice for the heart of dating people today? Oh my goodness. I would just, I would say let's use the same framework that we've been using in this conversation
and transfer that to how we show up in dating. Let's show up in dating with a posture of curiosity. As opposed to let me have this legalistic list of all the things that he does need to have or she does need to have and if they don't have it immediately off the bat, then I'm never talking to them again. Remember a relationship with God is a relationship. There's ebbs and flows and everyone's relationship with Jesus is going to look different. So instead of approaching dating with this
black and white mentality, can we show up with a posture of curiosity? Can we get to know the person sitting in front of us without an agenda and trust that God will give us wisdom as we seek God and as we get to know this other human as to whether or not they are a good fit for us. So I think in that, just let's be, let's be curious. Let's be humble. Let's be kind. Let's create a culture of honor and dating as opposed to showing up with, well, is he my husband or not? Is she my wife or not?
And if not, then I don't even want to talk to her. That's not kind. Yeah, I love that. Ever since you and I talked about this years ago, like the posture of curiosity, I'm like, yeah, I think that transforms dating overall, like when we can show up in all these conversations with getting curious, you know, getting curious with how God created this person, getting curious with
myself, getting curious, just let's get curious. Like it's just, we so want this prescribed way of dating and when we didn't get to talk about it, but when it comes to like physical boundaries, I am very hesitant to ever tell anybody, it should be XYZ, you know, do this and don't do this
because I think that's a conversation you should be having with God and getting curious with knowing yourself and knowing what your tendencies are, what your trigger points are, what has been hard for you in the past and within that, then you can build a set of boundaries that feel holistically grounded for you and connected to yourself, your body into God. But for me to list sit here and say like, hey, you know, Joe Schmoh, this is what you should be
doing and these are not the things you should be doing. Don't hold hands. Oh, don't ever kiss, you know, like I can't do that. That's not right. It just, it flattens the whole process and I think that's what we've done so long in this dating conversation. Absolutely. 100%. And and within that, when we do that, we, we dismiss just how colorful and unique God has created humanity and what might a win for one person might be a real loss for another person and what might be, you know,
someone's dream over here. I mean, I love a perfect day for me is being out in the sun all day and working out and sweating and having dance parties that might seem like the worst thing ever to another human. And so as either of us wrong, no, and I'm not proposing like live, we're all into my truth culture. No, God, but let's have a positive curiosity and humility when we show up in the world. And I think it will only bless us and bless our relationships and create more openness
and kindness and our interactions with ourselves with God and each other. Yeah, so good, Kat. Oh, I love you, girl. Okay. Love you. You is out right now and people can get it like everywhere, right? Everywhere. Yeah. It's not fun to say you can get it the book wherever books are sold. Like it's crazy. Amazon, Kindle, Audible. If you, if you are not tired of hearing my voice yet, you can download you reading my book out loud to you. Yeah, I can't wait to listen to the
audible version, girl. I mean, I've read the actual version. I'm like, now when I listen to you saying it, because it's so fun. I want to hear the sass and I want to hear the story and the emotion. And how do people connect with you on Instagram or anything else you have going on? For sure. So website and social media is the refined woman. My podcast is the refined collective. All things book-related, sexless in the city book.com. Yes. All right, my friend. I love you so much.
Thank you for having this combo with us today. I love you. Talk to you soon. Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about all the good things. Da da da da da da da. I told you we were talking about sex today and we definitely did. I'm so grateful for Kat and all of her truth and honesty and how she just shares her wisdom with her story and all the research that she has learned both through her theology and biblical understanding
as well as research from other resources. It's absolutely incredible. Her book is so powerful. If this conversation didn't convince you to go pick up her book, let me just again put it out there. Go get a copy of her book, Sexless in the City. It's available right now on Amazon and wherever books are sold, you can go to sexlessinthecitybook.com as well. And I also got to say this, you guys. Releasing a book for the first time is one of the most vulnerable things you can do.
And I could not encourage you more to just support her in this process. She really has poured her heart and soul into making this book the most powerful for so many people. And it is not easy to go into this topic of sex. Okay, especially in the Christian church, it really is not as so nuanced. We all have our own opinions. There's so much shame to debunk and Kat did so with so much grace and tenacity, courage and boldness. This book is going to help you and it's going to transform
your life. Thank you so much to Kat. Love you, girl. If you're listening right now, you're one of my favorite people and I am so freaking proud of you. All right, that's it for today's episode. You guys next week. We are going right back into our heart of dating select episodes that feature content that are surrounding the intersection of faith and mental health. So we'll see you next week.