Looking for a fresh way to connect with God daily? Join me and hundreds of thousands of others who are spending time with the Lord each morning with the help of 1st 15. 1st 15 is a daily devotional created to equip believers of all backgrounds to connect with God in the first 15 minutes of their day. When you sign up, you'll receive a devotional in your inbox every morning that leads you through scripture, reflection, a time of guided prayer and even worship. Signing up is always
free and incredibly easy. Just go to 1st15.org slash sign up to get your 1st 15 devotional and start connecting with God in a fresh way tomorrow morning. That's 1st15.org slash sign up. We'll see you tomorrow. Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kate. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways
to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying? Now let's get to the heart of the matter. Hey, family, it's Kate here and I'm so glad you're here today. This last week, I just had a moment of being so grateful for all the messages I received from you on, and Kateness, and at Heart of Dating. And I'm just really thankful for you all for being so
encouraging. First of all, but also for being vulnerable and for sharing your highs and lows with me into the dating scene. I just love that we can commune together. It's just so special. So thank you. Now right before we get into today's episode, I want to share just two resources to help you with your dating life. First, if right now you feel ready to date and put yourself out there, then I want to encourage you to go ahead and download our free resource on how to show interest.
Yep, how to show interest to somebody you like. You can grab that for free by going to heartofdating.com or slash show interest. Now one other thing, did you guys know that I offer one-on-one relationship coaching? I love doing this podcast and I really hope it encourages you, but I am also aware that every person's dating history is different, which means that not one set
of dating advice can really apply to everyone. So that's why it's my honor and joy to walk a log side and buy clients to help them create a vision for their life in terms of God themselves and also in dating. Just from this last year, I have seen amazing clients claim freedom in their dating life. I've seen them embrace their identities and gain confidence unlike ever before. I've seen them heal and do the work only to eventually be able to get back out there with
boldness and hope. You guys, one of my amazing clients, Jamie, actually got engaged this last summer and I couldn't be more thrilled for her. Anyhow, it's my true joy to coach my clients in their dating life. So if you want to sign up for a 15-minute free consultation, you can do this by going to heartofdating.com or slash coaching. Now this is really for anyone
who is seriously considering coaching. Well, I'd love to meet all of you guys. Please only sign up for a consultation if you're seriously considering doing one-on-one coaching with me. Alright, I would love to meet you guys and now let's go into the episode today. I'm really excited to bring on one of my amazing married friends, Matt Ayers. Matthew Ayers is a founding member, treasurer, and executive board member of Vintage Church
in LA. Outside of his involvement at the church, Matt manages the investments of a handful of very wealthy families at Alex Brown. Matt lives in West LA with his wife Stephanie and his two daughters Riley and Dylan. He's an avid reader, a golfer, and loves to travel. Now a few years ago, I heard Matt speak on discipleship at my yearly church retreat and I was just blown away by
his input and his convictions. So soon after that, I tracked him down at a leadership above our church was having and I ended up cornering him and asking a ton of follow-up questions. Since then, I've got to know both him and his wife Stephanie and I've grown to really love how they do relationships, how they do their marriage, and also how they mentor and disciple couples. Matt and Steph have actually mentored me and a few past boyfriends through relationships. So
they are just really, really amazing you guys. Today, Matt and I dive into the conversation of discipleship and leadership and also we talk about how that applies to men specifically in dating relationships. It's such a rich discussion. It's so needed and even at the end of our conversation today, we touch on gender roles and leadership, which is dynamite. So if you want to hear all of that goodness, you're going to have to stay till the end. So without further ado,
here is my conversation with Matt Ayers. Matt Ayers, hey, welcome to hearted dating podcast today. I'm so happy. It's good to be here. So excited to have you here Matt and thank you. It's an honor to have like a friend and so in my community and just I just really honor and respect you and your wife Steph so much and what you guys do to serve our community, even at our church here in LA vintage and I've just looked up to you for so long. So I'm really excited to have you on today
and to hear the wisdom that you're going to share with us. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to. So tell everyone who you are, I guess. Who am I? Well, I have been married for six years to my wonderful wife, Stephanie. I live here in Los Angeles. I was one of the founding members of a little church called vintage church in Santa Monica. And yeah, I've had a pretty wild ride and adventure with Jesus Christ and I've learned a lot about what it means to be a Christian, what it means to
you to be a leader, to live out what he's called us to be. And as I continue to study that, I think we got into this conversation and asked me to share some thoughts. So happy to be here. Yeah, I think at the first time I heard you talk about the topic we're diving into today, some spiritual leadership stuff was like a year and a half ago at Focus I think, which was our
yearly retreat. And I was like, Oh, man, this is good. We need to talk about this. I think then I saw you at the leadership retreat and kind of cornered you and was like, let's talk about this more. I want to know more, you know, like it's just such good stuff to discipleship leadership. And what that means in general as single as but also what that means in dating. And obviously,
I'm very passionate about that topic and this podcast everyone listening. But I guess if you just would be able to start off by just talking to us about what is the spiritual leadership thing? And why is it important for men? Sure. So the first time I ever heard this idea, this term spiritual leader, I was still very new to my faith. I came to faith when I was in college and you know, I knew that I needed Jesus after searching a very long time. I kind of fell into it and started
to learn and started to grow and started to date. And one of the girls that I had dated, you know, during this time was a Christian. And, you know, I had no idea what it meant to date as a Christian. And it's very different. It's very different. Exactly. That's this wonderful podcast. But so, you know, one of the things she asked of me, she said, I need a spiritual leader and I
had no clue what she was talking about. And- And- And deer and headlights. Which through me as, as, you know, being a knowledge seeker and loving to read and study and grow, it threw me into this really long. And I continue to learn and grow about what it means to date as a Christian. But also what this idea of discipleship, spiritual leadership, what all this means. Yeah. You know, what the easiest way I think to define being a spiritual leader, what is that
actually? It just means to live in such a way that you exemplify what it means to live in Christ. You're living in a way that points other people when they look at your life, they see Jesus, or Jesus type qualities. You know, it's a little different than discipleship, you know, where and I spend a lot of time discipling others and meeting with others. And it's a huge passion
of mine because it's something I always, I needed and I knew that I needed more of. And there isn't, it's kind of hard to pick up, you know, someone that will take you under their wing and really, you know, mentor you in that way. And so I've tried to institutionalize it in some way where I can, I can bring some guys in and, and, you know, for those that really want to learn, to give them that
opportunity to grow in some way and to present the gospel to them. So, but, but sharing, you know, discipleship is more sharing your life with someone, specifically, you know, a group of guys or, or, you know, a couple of individuals. So that they may learn and grow to live in the ways of Jesus. So, being a spiritual leader is, is a, you know, way of you living. Yeah.
Um, discipleship, I think, is something more intentional. It's something where you are sharing life with a few individuals intentionally wanting to grow them and to teach them what it means to live as a Christians, a follower of Christ. I love that. So, in essence, what you're even saying there is like discipleship is like a part of the process to even becoming a spiritual leader. Sure. Yeah. And I think we're always being, we're always teachers, even though we may not know
that we're teaching. So we have to choose what we want to be disciples of. And so, you know, you really do have to be intentional about it. And look, this is a lifelong process. No one ever has it figured out. No one's ever gotten to the top and just said, oh, I'm master. I've arrived. I'm the perfect disciple. Exactly. Or, or, you know what, I've got this whole Jesus thing figured out. I've reached the peak of this mountain. It's, no, it's, this is a lifelong journey that we
press on towards the goal. And the race ends when, uh, when we die. And so it's, that's when we get to kind of continue on and face our creator. But, but until then, I'm going to continue to disciple, be disciples and continue to learn what it means to be a spiritual leader. I love that. I love that you're so passionate about discipleship because it's really only in the past few years that that's become a huge part of my life too. And learning even how to be a spiritual leader
and how to be disciples by, with other women. Now I meet weekly with somebody like that. It's me, right now it's one on one. We do want other people. But like it's, I recommend a few people. But I love that process of like accountability and sharing and we confess to one another. We're just like brutally honest and we keep each other really in check and like are always biblically referencing things so that we are both, you know, we have permission to speak to each other in
that way. And that's really, really helpful. So in this, so back to like being spiritual leader, I think we'll talk about discipleship more later. I think this is a big hot topic when it comes to like relationships and dating. Because I hear a lot of women, they're like, I want a spiritual leader man. And then like you just said, a girl said that to you and you're like, what come again? So like, how can we call up men to be even better spiritual leaders? Like how do we do that?
Sure. So I think the Bible does a pretty good job at calling us into being like Christ and to being spiritual leaders and to guiding others and to seeing us and seeing Christ through that. You know, my dad always told me, you may be the only Bible some people read. And you have to live in such a way that people recognize something different in you than they see that Jesus in you. And look, being a spiritual leader, it is a little intimidating when you, you know, bring it up
that way. I was always intimidated by first Corinthians 111. Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. And you know, I've come to terms with that verse and I think it's such a powerful call that all of us should be able to say that. Follow me as I follow Christ. No, I'm not perfect. And Paul goes into, you know, through Corinthians how, you know, flawed he really is. And how he does what he hates and all this other stuff. But that's not what he's getting at. He's saying, look, I'm going to
press on towards being as Christ like as possible. Follow me as I follow Christ. You know, let's do this together. You know, don't be intimidated. So how do we call men into being better spiritual leaders? Well, Matthew 28, the great commission. You know, I've, I'm big into community and I'm big into discipleship. And people often leave off a big part of this because there's two, two major parts to Matthew 28, 19 through 20. It says, therefore, go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Okay, that says evangelism to me. Go out, convert, tell people about me. But there's a huge second portion to that. And this is, this is right before Jesus sends to heaven. This is a command he gives us. So after we go out and we tell everybody about Jesus and baptize them, name the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. We have all these converts, if you will. What's the next step? And teaching them to obey everything I commanded
you. And surely with you, always to the end of the age. So there's two parts to this. It's one, yeah, tell people about who I am. But secondly, teach them to obey everything I've commanded you. What does that mean? That's discipleship. How do we live a life that exemplifies Christ that follows in the footsteps that Christ gave us? I mean, Jesus was here. I always tell my guys, the guys I meet with, there was two main reasons. He came to save us and he came to show us how to live.
And that first part is, this is the saving part. Jesus came to love you, to save you, and this grace. The second part is, how do we live that out? And it's such a freeing, wonderful life to live in that way. So how do we share our lives and teach people how to obey those commands? That's so good. So coming into, let's talk about how we bring that then into a dating relationship. Because I think that this is so important, especially even when we talk about dating. And I think
that we can practice that. I mean, maybe let's talk about how we practice it both in singleness and then in dating as well. Because I think we don't just do it in dating. We could definitely do it in singleness as you're just sharing. But how do we do it in singleness? And then how do we bring that to like a dating relationship? Sure. And you know, I think, you know, when I look at my own life and I look at the guys that that I work with and a lot of the study I've done,
I think it's surprisingly very similar. And I think people think it's completely different. I think being a spiritual leader, whether you're single or dating, you're fully focused on glorifying God. That is our role. That is what we're building towards. And when you're young and you're single and you know, you're living life, you're you have more time than you ever realized. Yes. I always say you have the gifts of like freedom and time. And it's like, we have those two
gifts right now. That's true. And it's so funny. You're two kids. So funny when I was single, I thought, gosh, I'm so busy in my day was, you know, my whole calendar was just, you know, minutes a minute filled with stuff. And then I got a, you know, I got married and then I had two kids. And it's like, wait a minute. Like I laugh at my single self. How could I possibly think I was
busy? It's hilarious. But you know, when you're single, it is such a gift that you have more time than ever in the rest of your life to focus on to focus on God and to learn about God, to grow in God. I had a pastor who I really admire, tell me he said, I learned most of what I know about Jesus Christ in my 20s. Because once I got married in his 30s, I just don't have the same time to devote
to the Lord that I used to. And you have to take advantage of that time. So whatever your timing is and whatever your singleness, however that lasts, it is so, you know, incredibly important that you utilize that time to grow and to learn and to become more like Jesus. Because that's when you're really going to take on a lot of your spiritual maturity. Now in dating, I think you carry over whatever spiritual maturity you have and you continue to live that way. Dating shouldn't necessarily
be where, you know, one is teaching the other all the time. These are two individuals trying to decide if they can learn to be best friends. And if your, if one person is, even if they're both Christians, I really believe that if one maybe is like a brand new Christian, let's say, and the other has been in ministry and has, you know, has really fought far along, you know, eating solid foods
in that sense. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's going to be a really difficult relationship because that person, the younger and more immature Christian isn't quite ready to take on a lot of those truths, at least in the same way. And I think they need more time alone to figure out and mature and grow before they'll really be ready to take on solid food, you know, and they need to get through those
stages. So I think it's really important as you're single and I tell guys this all the time, it's, you know, you, everybody tells me, guy or girl, I really want this amazing Christian person that, you know, is everything that I read in the Bible and that would love me and serve me and all these different things that we're called to do is Christians. I said, okay, great. Yeah, I totally agree. That's what you should be looking for and you should set those standards high and should not
compromise, you know, a God loving, God chasing type person. But I'm like, are you the person they're looking for? Yes, I love that. So often they, they take a step back and go, oh, like, you know, I didn't think about that. Yeah. Because hold up, Matt, wait a second. You know, I, the best example I have is my, my little brother who I'd love to death, uh, called me one time. He moved to a new city. He was living in San Francisco and he said,
you know, it's so hard. How am I going to ever meet the girl in my dreams or whatever? And it's like, well, who are you looking for? And he gave me that answer and I said, well, how are you exemplifying what she wants? How is she going to fall in love? She's not going to fall in love with you. Nobody, nobody fell in love with me. I'll tell you that. My wife, my wife saw that Jesus in me and a Christian guy or girl is going to fall in love with the Jesus they see in you and they're
going to want to be a part of that. Yeah. So, you know, I told my little brother that same idea. It's like you need to be super involved in your church, pick a church, get involved, you know, put away the chairs, volunteer in the youth group. He did all that stuff. And, you know, soon enough, some girl was like, man, like, what are you all about? I love what you're doing. I love your heart.
I want to. Yeah. I mean, so I really think that, uh, this idea of being a spiritual leader is really a key to one, you're glorifying God and that is your call, whether you're single or not. And if you do come into a relationship, yeah, you want someone that's attracted to that. Yeah. I love that so much because I think that there's that great call that, I mean, in Corinthians, like Paul talks about it, but like this time is to have undivided devotion to the Lord and to
join him in what he's doing. And John Tyson, who I had on earlier last year on the podcast, is like, how do you cultivate holy ambition in your life for the kingdom of God as a single? I love that. I quote that all the time because it like stuck with me. And I'm like, yeah, how do we cultivate something holy and incredible for the kingdom of God in our lives as a single? Because
this is our time to have devotion to the Lord. This is our time to do rad things for the kingdom with our time and get to know God and seek his heart because when we seek his heart, then the things of God become more of what we want and desire. So then you'll less likely be in unhealthy relationships because you're only really looking for the things of God and you're not as fazed by the things not of God because your heart is so much more like God because you're spending time with Jesus
like all the time. And so I think it like will change everything when I hear people like, oh my gosh, I dated this bad guy and that bad guy. And I'm like, I get you or when it's opposite and guy saying about girls and like, but maybe it's not even about them. Maybe it's like, you need to be spending more time with Jesus because then you won't maybe be messing around with the people that are unhealthy.
Look, I was one single and I'm not saying that I, you know, immune to this or had figured it out and avoided it. I went through this. You know, there was a period of my life where I just was dating whoever. And you know, if they said they were a Christian, I'm like, sure, let's figure that out. And you know, I'd go on a date and figure out, well, you're not really Christian. You may check that box, but this is not the focus of your life. This is not what your, you know, your
career desire is. So, you know, I'd go on these one dates and break off. But, you know, that's not what God calls us to do. And I'm kind of putting myself in bad situations. I had a close brother of mine kind of step me aside and in a loving way, you know, really let me have it. And he was like, look, you know, what are you really trying to accomplish here? You dated the bottle girl at that club. You dated, you know, this comedian that you met at some bar, it's like, what are you doing?
And you're wasting your time because you're dating these other girls when, you know, you could be missing the next, the next girl that you should be dating. It's like, why don't you focus on, you know, where you're at and your relationship with God. And when the girl comes along that is in love with that, that'll be the girl you want to be with. And that doesn't come without sacrifice. I mean,
I was in a church at the time. Vintage had 30 people. Yeah, maybe less. And, you know, for me, it was like, oh, well, should I go to another church in the mornings and go to vintage at night? Because we were meeting at the time. And how am I going to meet this girl? I know all the girls here. And, you know, it's not working. And, you know, it's, there was a level of, you know, what, this, I can't put this first. I need to, I need to put God first. And I need to serve and,
and follow that. And let's see what happens. And yeah, I had a desire to be married. But I was also prepared to be single, you know, and, and to just fall in love with the Lord. And, you know, sure enough, this girl walks in and, you know, then a year and a half or so. We were dating and got married pretty quickly. And, you know, we've married six years. And it's awesome. So it's,
yeah, it, you really, I really think that God honors that obedience and that trust. And, and look, if, if we trust God with so many other things, like, why couldn't we trust Him with something so simple? Yeah. I agree with that totally. Something in that too, just in the context of dating and spiritual leadership in dating with men, like, what do you think, how do you think that look like plays out
in dating? It's like more specifically because I know you disciple so many men. So what do you, if guys are in relationships or are like in that stage of like, let's, we're dating, what does that look like? Kind of to be a spiritual leader. And what are they kind of leading the charge on in relationships? Sure. There's a big, big difference between marriage and dating. And often, I get these questions very intense questions about, you know, trying to lead somebody and, and
trying to change somebody or to grow somebody while you're still dating. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah. You're not, you know, committed to them the rest of your life, like move on. And most often people, it's really hard for people to do that. And, but the thing is, is that that person just isn't right for you right now. And maybe they will be down the road. Maybe there's somebody else, but to toil over trying to make somebody a certain way, I just think is,
it's a very difficult thing to do. It's not that it's impossible, but I think you need to, you know, to really focus on, you know, where God is kind of leading you and, and where He's not. And, and to make something, to try and change somebody's spirit difficult, they need to do that themselves and they need to submit to, to the Holy Spirit to, to be changed. Yeah. So you're not
going to change anybody. I've learned that quickly. It's codependency, all right? Yeah, so, you know, your question was, you know, what does it look like to lead somebody in a, in a relationship? Well, when I'm dating, it's more of a, you know, I'm getting to know this person to see if they're potentially someone I could marry. Right. And I really have, I have one non-negotiable, and it's that you are just on fire, love Jesus. I mean, if you don't have that, it's a complete waste of all
of our time. Yeah. And, and I hear plenty of people try to tell me, well, they could come around, and it's like, that's not real faith. Like, and look, that, that may happen. I'm not saying it never does, but I know plenty of stories, including my parents, who are still married to this day, but for the first 15 years of their marriage, they really, really struggled. Yeah. And, you know, we're going to get divorced and, you know, kind of flipped around, but my dad didn't become a
Christian until they were 10 years or almost 15 years in. And that's where it flipped. And it's like, look, you don't need to go through that. And I don't even know if that's, that's not God's best for your life. Yeah. That's not glorifying God by toiling with somebody and getting emotionally attached to somebody and, you know, pursuing a relationship with somebody that's not helping you glorify God. A relationship, you know, when I'm dating someone, I, I want to get to know
their faith kind of pretty early. I'll get to see if I even enjoy them first date and see where they're at with, with Christ. And then the second date's like, all right, tell me more about your faith. Like, these are things that are really important to me. And then during the relationship, I spend a lot of time, you know, my wife and I went through. I wanted to change the conversation to make it more focused on, you know, biblical things. We went through a book together as a good
exercise. We, we did a couple of Bible studies together. We, it just allows the conversation to be centered around things that are truly important. And if that's my one non-negotiable, let's face it, everything else, like whether I'm attracted to her and her beauty or, you know, all the different things that you can name that you think are important. You know, a lot of those things are going to change as you grow older. Yeah. You know, and a relationship and a marriage, especially when
you're devoting yourself to someone for life. Yeah. You know, there is no divorce here. I, I'm devoting my, my life to this person. You know, I want to make sure she's reading from the same rule book. And we're running this together. And when things get really tough, which they always do, chemistry or not, you know, chemistry comes and comes and goes. By the way, feelings lie to us all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to find someone that's at least on the same, same page. And
totally. So those are some ways that you can kind of feel those things out. You can hear about the way they think about some of the things that you read in these books or, or as you go through the Bible. And, you know, I've had plenty that thought, you know what, I don't believe that. I don't believe this or that. And I don't, I really don't take it that seriously. I think you're too into this. And it's like, that's totally okay. Yeah. I just don't think this is going to work. Yeah.
That's good. It's so interesting because, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest questions I get is like, oh, I went out with this person and they're not really that much of a Christian. And it's very disappointing. But I'm like, okay, well, then, you know, because that's I'm fine with online dating and stuff like that. It's fine. I'm like, fine. God can work through anything. But yeah, right, ask these questions. And if that's not there, then, okay, we're not there to waste
time. And you're not there to flirt to convert or anything like that. Like all these funny silly phrases, but it's true. And like, we're truly looking like back to what you said in the beginning, this great call of our life is to serve God to be disciples of nation. So what are we doing? We can't waste our time with somebody. If we are, if we, if we have a Christian faith to not join in with someone else who also shares in that exact same value. Right.
Okay, friends, I just want to take a quick break in our amazing episode today to share with you our incredible sponsor for this episode. This episode is brought to you by Dennis and ministries. Dennis and ministries is a movement creating seven million culture changing Christians who are committed to carrying out the truths of the gospel to their sphere of influence. One of my favorite ways that Dennis and ministries is helping Christians feel closer to
God is through their first 15 devotional. First 15 is designed to help you spend the first 15 minutes of your day experiencing God through meaningful devotional scripture, worship, and prayer. Now we always talk about how singleness and dating is the perfect season to grow closer to God, right? I mean, it really is. We can't waste this time. We have to make the most of every moment that we have. We really do the additional time that we have now needs to be spent growing closer to
God as much as we possibly can. So if you hear me saying that right now and you're like, yeah, Kate, that's great and all, but I am busy, friend. Well, I hear you. I am also busy at doing awesome things as I sure you're doing too. But here's a deal. Can you not at least spend 15 minutes a day studying and being with God? I mean, that is at least a priority we should be making in our life right now. So, friend, I want to encourage you to sign up for the first 15 email devotional
that can be sent directly to your inbox at first15.org forward slash subscribe. Or you can even start your day off with the first 15 devotional podcasts and listen to that anywhere that's convenient for you. Join me in doing this simple but really, really impactful discipline so we can together really begin pressing into knowing God in a bigger and better way in our singleness. So in terms of becoming more of a spiritual leader, like what are some essentials to really
doing that in our life today? Like, can you break that down for us and even practical steps for people? I know we've kind of broadly talked about it, but maybe like three things or something like that? Well, when I when I move through, I mean, being a spiritual leader and growing towards Christ, I mean, we're we're followers of Christ in it and a more direct or maybe descriptive translation of Christian is being a little Christ, like a miniature version of who he is.
And followers of Christ back then, I mean, you lived, you slept and you stayed with your rabbi, your teacher. Disciples of someone, you know, did life with that person and they imitated that person in every way because they wanted to learn how to do that. Now, how do we do that? You know, how do we grow towards Christ in that way? Well, we look at Jesus's life and there were a few things that he always did. One, he knew and loved God. And so, you know, you can
guess what are some of the ways that we can know God? Well, it's our study. It's our prayer life. It's, you know, our quiet times in the morning. It's us going to church. It's us challenging ourselves with different books. It's constantly having our mind on Christ because when you're constantly thinking of it, studying it, growing in it, that's when you're going to grow and you're going to be more like him and you learn a lot more about yourself. So, you know, one of the ways I do that is
I disciple someone else. And that's kind of the next step. What did Jesus do? Well, not only did he know God, but he, you know, called us to love God and he called us to love others. And a way to love others is to disciple them to grow them to bring them closer to Jesus. That's the best thing you can give anybody. The thing they need the most is God. And to disciple someone else, not only blesses that person, but I can't imagine, I mean, my faith has grown so much because I've always had,
you know, we meet every Monday nights. Every Monday night I got to be prepared. During the week, I have to have my mind on Christ or I'm not going to be ready to speak about what I felt God teaching me. So by having, you know, that responsibility and, you know, people relying on me bringing something, it forced me to take my Christian life to the next level. And it's like a great accountability. I feel that with heart of dating. Well, people are coming to be for dating advice.
So I'm like, I need to be pouring into God, godly dating advice and reading new dating books or whatever I can find. So, and I have to be sharpening my tools in that way. I would say the final, the final thing, you know, after, you know, you love God, you love others and through the discipleship. I think that one other thing that really sticks out to me and just the, the who God was, was in his humility. Jesus had all authority in heaven, you know, Philippians 2 talks about how he,
he let go of his rightful place in the Trinity. He emptied himself and became a servant. The key to servant spiritual leadership and the key to, you know, your humility is, how are you serving others? So good. And so I just think that's essential if you really want to grow yourself. Like, how are you serving the church? How are you serving, you know, individual people around you?
Yeah, that's so good. Because when I always say that I remember one time and I've told this story on the podcast before, but I once asked somebody, what does it mean to you to like be servant-hearted and be sacrificial or show sacrificial love? And he was like, well, I think it's just spending quality time with you is sacrificial. And I was like, okay. And I thought about it for a second.
I was like, well, I know your time is like very valuable and I know you don't have a lot of it, but I don't think that in my mind that's like super sacrificial because I don't think our relationship would build if, if we didn't spend time to get there. So I think that's like, that's a basic part of how we are going to develop this relationship. What other ways would is sacrificial love? Or how do you practice that in other ways in your life? And he was like,
I don't know. And I was like, that's a deal, that breaker. But, well, it's so, I mean, and that's just a great example of someone that, well, one, hasn't been asked that question and two. And two, just doesn't understand what it means to, to really to serve. And I don't know if they just didn't know what had answered the question and were blindsided or maybe they do participate in some way, but, you know, sacrificial love is
best shown in my marriage. I mean, well, it's best shown through Jesus who gave up not only his divineness, but, you know, gave up for a bunch of, for sinful humanity died on the cross for us to save us. That relationship between him and the father, between him and us. I mean, we're talking about marriage and that bond and gosh, I can give you a million stories of
sacrificial love that my wife has shown me. And sacrificial love that I've shown her and the struggle to constantly be willing to choose to choose love and to choose to love that person and to sacrifice things that you may want or things that you are doing, you know, to serve them. And because it's, I mean, and let alone have kids. I mean, your whole life changes to surround those people,
those little kids. So, you know, Jesus models, and you know, I'm learning this as I go, but gosh, Jesus models this incredible, you know, John 13, he steps down and washes the disciples feet. That's how he leads. He leads through serving others. And if you got to really take a tally, what, what am I doing? Who am I discipling? How am I serving the church? How am I serving my community? And, you know, believers and non-believers alike, what am I doing with my life? Because I guarantee
you when you get to heaven someday. God's not going to care about how much money you made or where you worked or what accomplishments you really had here on earth. I think, you know, someone told me, you can't take things with you to heaven, but you can take people. Oh, I love it. And, you know, it's so great. What are we, what are we spending our time on? You know, I'm guilty of this more, you know, more than anybody else. I get so busy with other things. And then I come
back, I mean, even with my own family, I get busy with. And I come back to wait a minute, you know, I need to focus on how am I glorifying God in this? Work as glorifying God absolutely, but how am I serving others as well? You know, it has to be part of your ministry, a part of your life. Now, Matt, one other thing that I think you've actually said this to me, and ever since I've been also sharing this other people that I know is an important part of discipleship too, is just kind of
like building what you call a board of advisors. Yeah. And I just love that because I've like taken that now, I tell everyone else, build your board. Okay, where's your board at? But can if nobody, if people listening don't know what I'm talking about, will you explain to like for everyone what that means for you? And why do you think that's a for it for all of us? Yeah, sure. I love that
you're using that. Yeah. So good. Where's your board at? A little too corporate, I guess, but yeah, my Christian, my Christian board, I, as I was growing as a Christian and, you know, I had a number of, you know, really amazing men disciple me. And, and I was so hungry to learn more and grow
more. And, and how do you lead somebody? And we were asking that earlier. And I think I forgot to mention true leadership is when you're so focused on God and you're growing so much that not that you are, you know, fabricating some way to lead them, but you're filling your cup so full that it overflows into their cup. And, you know, one of these mentors like gave that little piece of word to me and I was like, you know, it makes so much sense. I can't fabricate these Christian questions
as what I was asking. How do I lead the, you know, her in this Christian way and he's like, you need to lead you. And by leading you, it's going to overflow into her. And that's you, if you're not filling yourself up, you know, you got to live it to give it. If you're not filling yourself up,
you're not going to be able to give anything to anybody else. And, you know, your question, you know, essentially, you know, the board, yeah, the Christian board idea, as you go through life, the Bible is purposely not perfectly clear about everything you can and cannot do. Because culture's change and, you know, but the Bible is, you know, continues to be valid and,
and you know, continues to teach us these lessons. Well, you know, there were things, you know, like when I was getting married, or we were engaged and I was talking to, I think you were still dating actually, but I would, she had a question, she said, look, this guy wants to move into my apartment and, you know, there was like a four bedroom house. And, you know, on the surface, it's, is that good or bad? You know, the Bible doesn't obviously say anything about that. Like,
let's look deeper into the situation. And, and she's like, what do you think? And I was like, well, what do you think? Like, I need you to be able to make these decisions. It's like, look, I, I feel uncomfortable with this given the situation. And she didn't have a door on her bedroom. And it was just, you know, it was a little weird for me. But I was like, but what do you think? Like,
this is a decision you have to make. And she's like, well, I don't, I'm not really sure. I was like, well, you need a group of believers that you respect mentors, advisors, people that you respect that you can call on to ask these questions of life. And I think that, um, there's this like acronym. There's four C.S.s. And I'm not going to remember all of them. But when you're making a Christian decision, uh, and you're trying to apply the Bible to your life, it's like, how do we do
that? Well, when we're making this decision, one, we use common sense is this logical, you know, to, uh, commanding scripture, we read through the Bible and tested according to scripture. Three, we counsel the saints. We build this Christian board. Um, we, we test, uh, according to, to all these different people, what do you think about this? I respect your faith. How do you feel
about this? Yeah. And then finally, the commanding spirit, um, this, or counseling spirit, this idea of, you know, really praying and, and, you know, asking God to, to give you something, uh, inside of you to, to really teach you. So, you know, in this scenario, I felt really uncomfortable with it. And I asked my Christian board, I've got, you know, I, it's grown over the years, but I've got
a, maybe a dozen guys that, um, they don't all live near me. Some of them do some of them don't, but I, I got a lot of differing advice, but I, I got a lot of great advice and a lot of, um, you know, I think God led advice and, and ways to think about the situation that helped me get outside of myself and to think about it in, in a more godly way. And, um, and I, and that's what she did. She, she built her board. Um, so good. A bunch of amazing women that she, uh, was able to
counsel and, and, you know, one of them gave her, uh, a word and it just clicked. She was like, that is so true. Mm hmm. And it was, it was just so clear to her after that. And it was a harder road. She had a, you know, tell her roommates that she didn't think wasn't comfortable with this, and a lot of her secular friends really hated her for it. Um, but, uh, you know, everything turned out okay. And I, I also saw a lot in her, you know, it's, it's, I, I got to see a real inside look of,
of who I was, you know, about to marry. And, and that was my prayer at the time, you know, Lord, show me who she is. Um, you know, I really want to make sure I'm making the right decision. So it's so helpful to just in growing, because like, as you're saying, build our, our cup should be built to overflow. And then we can flow into other people and a part of that is also through my board and my mentors and the people I have in my life that are also help counseling me as well.
And, you know, we're learning, it's like, I think of it as like, we're learning from the Bible, we're learning from Jesus and we're learning from these other people who have experienced more of a, than us in ways in life. And on my board, there's like mentors, older people, I have a guy, a male, like married guy mentor on my board. And, and then I have like a few peers as well. But people married people and, and some single people and it's so awesome to like, when I'm dating,
they're the first people that I bring in to be like, so what do you think of this guy? You know, like, I need to know, I want your insight because I don't want to do this in a silo. I know my issues. You know, all of my issues, you know, my blind spots and help me to navigate this and see
so that I'm not making any mistakes over here. And also it helps when we're dating and there's something comes up and I'm like, I'm reacting potentially to something, but I can bring it to my board or a few people on my board and they're like, Hey, this is a tendency that's coming up for you again. And this is how I see it. So maybe you should be this way or, you know, and then I'm like, Oh, wow, versus if I just lived in me and didn't talk that out with any of my board people,
I'd be like, just going back at him without any understanding heart necessarily. I mean, of course, I'd pray about it too, but it's so helpful to have that like direct accountability and mentorship and just to process with. So I want to just bring that up because I know you said that I think for the first time and I was like, I love that. That was helpful. Yeah, you know, so often we get emotionally involved. And we can't see straight anymore. Yes. You know, and we need some sober
people to tell us, Hey, you know, you need to take a step back here. You know, there's a great verse in Proverbs says, you know, guard your heart for it's the wellspring of life. And so often we we give our heart away. And, you know, that's not appropriate when you're dating. Yeah, when you're dating, you should, you should keep an arm's distance in your emotional involvement because you want to be able to test their character. That's what dating is about is learning who that person
is behind your doors. Yeah, you're evaluating. You're like, exactly. What is your character really like? And having a Christian board is really helpful for that. Yes, because they're not emotionally tied to the person at all. They have no emotional say. So they're like, no, I can see crystal clear. You know, it's really helpful. Something else I just wanted to bring up is we're focusing also a
lot of men and being spiritual leaders. Like how can women to be spiritual leaders and like in the context of relationship in essence co lead or also, you know, have a voice be leaders in itself in relationship. I want to like kind of touch on that too. Yeah. So, you know, as far as how can a woman be a spiritual leader? I mean, it's the same instruction. Yeah. Then it is for a guy. I mean, we're all in this together. Jesus was speaking to all of us and, you know, you're called to
you know, to to grow, to learn, to love Jesus, to disciple others, all the above. So, you know, everything we've already talked about is you know, you're not off the hook. This is absolutely. I love it. You know, it's something that you should be growing in and you should be chasing towards. And that's why, you know, podcasts like this and and you know, Bible study groups. It's not just for men. It's for both of us. So, you know, that's number one. And as far as as co leading, you know,
we talked about this a little bit. Yeah. Scripture gives us very, you know, specific gender roles. And I get this question a lot. And I don't know how deep you want to get into this idea. However much you want. Because certainly, you know, versus that, I think I haven't been attached to some pain as well because they've been twisted and distorted to some some abuse of person, you know, coming down on somebody. So, you know, the idea and I think you're getting at, you know, kind of Ephesians 5 or
I can read it really. So, let me read Ephesians 5. Just so people know what we're referring to. It's wives of material. This is Ephesians 5, 22, the 26, which is just wives of material and husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is ahead of the wife, even as Christ is ahead of the church, his body and is himself its savior. Now as a church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit and everything to their husbands. Husbands love your wives as Christ love the church and
gave himself up for her. And it goes on obviously. Right. So, I don't want to skip over the fact that this idea of submission is taken out of context of the arc of Scripture and is used to abuse emotionally. People are women in relationships where a man says you need to submit to me. That is not the heart of the Scripture. First Corinthians 113 is very similar. It says, but I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man and the head of Christ
is God. And sometimes especially in I think the culture we live in today, that is a very sensitive subject. It makes it seem as if women are not equal to men. And that's absolutely not true. And if you really want to study this, I was mentioning earlier, Tim and Kathy Keller, which I love. The Book of the Meeting Emerge. There's a chapter in there called Embracing the Other. And it's written by Kathy Keller and she speaks directly towards this idea of gender
roles in Scripture. Gender roles in Scripture, yes, it says that the man is the head of the relationship and that women, you know, the wife would submit to a man, but you know, it goes on to explain. And Scripture goes on to explain what does that actually mean? Because if a man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, which is to death and beyond death is a huge responsibility. But we throw authority, submission and you know, headship. We immediately take our own
understanding of those words and don't contextualize it within Scripture. You know, reading first Corinthians 113 again, I want you to realize that every, the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is man and the head of Christ is God. So we need to understand that Jesus submitted Himself to the Father and He co-led with God. He was no less God than God,
than God the Father was. You know, we find that in Philippians 2, I think we talked about it already, where he emptied himself, who being, I have it right in front of me, who being in very nature of God did not consider a quality with God, something to be used to his own advantage, but rather made himself nothing, took on the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness and being found in the appearance of man who has humbled himself, becoming be it into death, even death on
the cross. The thing is, is that Jesus is redefining what authority is. He's redefining if you're the head of a relationship as Christ was head of the church. You know, the church was his bride. Yeah. He, and just John 13, submitted himself to the church. He served the church. He died for the church. He washed the church's feet. That is what a husband is called to do, is to be washing his wife's feet, to be submitting to serve her endlessly to death and beyond. And I think that's
that is the true picture of what that means. Now, what does it mean for? And that's what it means to lead, is to be serving. That's what servant's leadership is and spiritual leadership is. Now, what does it mean for a woman to submit to their husbands? Well, you know, in this scripture, you know, Jesus submits to the Father and though he's taking this submissive role, you know, the Father accepts that gift and then exalts the son to the highest place as scripture tells us.
So, you know, each wishes to please the other, each is serving each other and each wishes to exalt the other. That's what the Trinity is all about. He empties himself, but he doesn't, and takes the role of a servant, but he doesn't even though he's, you know, shedding his divine privileges, he's not becoming any less God, he's not becoming any less divine, even though he's
in that submissive role. So, I think it's super important that we understand that one, this was holy voluntary on Jesus' part, it was a gift to the Father and it's his choice, it's the wife's choice to choose like, is this how I want to serve? Gender roles also, the Bible
doesn't say, oh, well, it wants the head and wants the servant, so are once submitting. So, therefore, one is supposed to take care of the kids and the other goes to work or one is, those, none of those cultural norms that we've established, but yeah, yeah, none of those
pertain, none of those come into the Bible at all. So, everyone find, every relationship you find who, you know, I spent a lot of time with the kids, my wife had this dream of becoming a nurse, you know, kind of mid-career and she's now a nurse and I'm super proud of her and so she's
often gone and I come home from work and take care of the kids, that is awesome. I mean, you know, it's a wonderful way for us to serve each other and that's what marriage is all about, is constantly serving the other and I think if at any point in time you reverse that or lose sight of that, you're destined for trouble. And so, how does a woman or the woman in a relationship co-lead? Well, their voice has always heard, I've never made a decision without my wife, but I think what's
important to understand is the way you lead is by serving. So, you know, how do you co-lead? Well, you serve just as much as the other person is. And I think that flips the script on a lot of people's world. Yeah, that's so good. You know, you can't, you shouldn't dominate me, well, of course. Like,
I wouldn't be dominating you in the first place if this is a Christian relationship. And that's why it's so important that you figure that out really quickly because this whole, you know, construct falls apart if you're not in a healthy Christian relationship. You have to constantly be serving each other. That is such a good breakdown, Matt. I don't think I've ever heard anyone really explain it exactly
the way you just did. And it's so helpful because I think this, I mean, it's something we haven't talked a ton about, like the general thing. And that, these specific verses in the Bible, which I feel like when you read it, especially in like cities like LA, you have a lot of women like, what, you know, the feminist? But I'm like, I'm a feminist, but I mean, I think we have a lot of, I believe in the equal rights for women. That's what I believe in saying I'm a feminist. But like, so Jesus.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I don't, I think that the way you're breaking it down, that you just broke it down makes it so much more like of a beautiful thing in relationship where women do, of course, have a voice. And it's about servanthood. The whole thing is about servanthood. And that, I mean, yeah, we just are like, what? I don't want to be told what to do. But it's not necessarily
about that as is in I love how you just explain that. And you know, it's funny in the chapter, because the question then begs, you know, well, why, why is the woman the submitter and why is the man the head even though they're both serving? And I mean, they're both serving. So I think it's, it's semantics in a way. But, but you know, why was the father the one that stayed in heaven and Jesus was the one called to earth? I mean, they're both equal in the in the Trinity. The Bible doesn't
say. I mean, that's just how it was. Now, I think, you know, my wife and I have studied this and I've talked about it a lot. And I think when you'll have a husband that loves you and or, you know, a boyfriend, I think is almost premature. But when you have a husband that that loves you and serves you in a way where you feel so honored that you, you know, turn around and serve them back. I mean, that's the that's a healthy relationship. And, and that's the model that Jesus gives to us. Yeah.
So that's that's the way that we need to look at this and and not look at, well, who's in charge and who gets to make the final decision? It's like, how can we serve each other and play to whatever strengths that we have? And then I think like, ultimately, and then how do we submit that decision to God and both be bringing that to God together, right? Like, I don't know. I'm not married. But I'm like, in the end, like, it's like, okay, we have a decision to make. It's not like it's my
decision or it's your decision. It's our decision and how are we submitting that to Christ together? Yeah. And like I said, I don't make any decisions, especially in big decisions without my wife. I mean, yeah. She literally is my other half. We to become one. I mean, she is my partner in absolutely everything and and I'm constantly trying to serve her out of love. And she's due, she does the same to me and whether or not she does that back to me, by the way, you're called to serve it and it's
a way of glorifying God, right? And that's that is what sacrifice means. It's you're not expecting anything in return. And yeah, any decision that we make, I mean, her, you know, you ask the question like, because their voice is important, it's like, well, of course, of course. It's not even a question. And the fact that you even had to add that in, you know, that, oh, we want to co-lead or whatever,
you're already, I mean, this, this is all part of the way we do it. You know, and the fact that you even have to add that in is just proof to the the hurt that's out there. Yes. And I want to be really sensitive around it. But I also want, you know, any lady out there like listening to this to know, like her incredible value, but also, you know, in submitting to your husband, it's such a beautiful
thing that we take on these different roles. And we, the love that you get through that. And look, if you're submitting to somebody and it's not working and you're miserable, then you're, then maybe it's the wrong person. Yeah. Now, if you're already married and everything else,
we can talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. We do have. We do have some married people. And so I think that in, in looking for this and dating, just wrapping it back up to bringing it to dating, it's like, we need to, I mean, because we're obviously not binding to each other that that much in dating, you know, it only really happens in marriage, but how we like serve each other. And we should be looking for these signs of serving each other as a dating relationship progresses, because otherwise,
if you're not seeing that, then how is that ever going to happen in marriage? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, marriage is just a magnifying glass to whatever you're already doing. So if you think, oh, once we get married, once we live together, you know, once we have kids, whatever, that things are going to get easier, everything is astronomically hard. And I tell people this all the time that are really struggling in their dating life. They're dating somebody that's like, it's just so hard.
I'm like, then break up with that person. Like, it's not that hard. Dating is not that hard. Like, you need to find someone that is chasing Jesus as much as you are that you admire that, that you want to, you enjoy fighting the battles of life with. You know, and that you want to give it a go to learn how to be best friends, because if that person is a struggle to be around, my gosh, there's a lot of people out there. Thank you. So good. And maybe also just like, you guys, they're
not necessarily a bad person. They're just not the right fit for you. Yeah. Like, you know, and I, I, I experienced that a lot with, I have lots of great people that I've talked to or dated. And like, it's actually a great person, not we don't have a joint cause. We don't have chemistry. And those are like, I always talk about Ben Stewart, who was an amazing pastor. It's like, character chemistry and cause. Do you have those three things? And I'm like, and sometimes you have
character and you don't have the chemistry and the cause. Okay. Well, probably not the best fit for you. And that's okay. Maybe just not going to, but if you don't have chemistry and the person drives you crazy, then not going to work out. Okay, Matt. I mean, we could talk on this forever. Is there anything I'm going to ask you our final question that I asked everybody, but anything else you want to say just on this topic that you think we missed or anything like that? I do want to stress
not to come at dating as if you're, you're trying to force some relationship somewhere. I mean, your goal in your singleness is to fully focus on God and glorifying God and knowing God and training yourself up to be more like Christ. That is your goal. And that's, that's life's goal. Your goal in life is not to be married and to be in a relationship. It should be fully focused. This life is not about you. And I tell that people that all the time, if you're ever thinking about,
well, what about me? You're probably wrong. You're probably not in a good spot. So, you know, that's one thing I would say is, is, you know, you should be embracing, you know, wherever you are. And, and really be chasing, you know, Jesus, not anyone else. They're not going to fulfill you. You, you find fulfillment in your identity in Jesus and you'll be in a much healthier place, you know, to take on a relationship if that were to come across your way and you find someone you
can't live without. And, you know, like I said earlier, you know, everybody always wants to find that other Christian person that is wonderful and loves Jesus and is doing all these amazing things. It's like, but are you the person they're looking for? Yeah. Because if you're not in that place, they're going to keep looking. And, you know, you might as well be prepared. Good. That's so good. I feel like I'm about to ask you our final question always is what's your final negative dating advice?
And I feel like that is your final nugget unless you have any health. I know. That is a little nugget. I don't remember what your question previously would do. We missed anything? No, we didn't miss anything. That's my nugget. That's a good nugget though. Like, honestly, I couldn't stress that more. Like, how are we being discipled now? Like, how are you making disciples of nations right now and your singleness and set yourself up for these disciplines and
singleness that you can and then end dating that you can prepare yourself for marriage. Because, whatever you said earlier too about your friend who's like, well, if I can't spend time with God now, do I really think that when I get married, I'm going to be able to spend that much more time with God? Like, this is our time to disciple and be the person. Like, instead of focusing on
finding the one, focus on becoming the one. And being stable and being happy where you are. I mean, why would I want to find somebody that if I found somebody that wasn't doing anything in their faith, why would I believe that they have a mature faith? Or if I found somebody that was desperate for someone else, that's not attractive. I mean, I want someone else to join their life with me. And then our ministry grows synergistically. The two become three, or one plus one becomes three.
But when somebody else is like, I need someone to latch on to, I don't want someone to latch on to me. I want to see what's going on in your life too. And I tell people this all the time, I truly believe that my wife's ministry is significantly bigger than my own. And I'm constantly working and bringing people in. And my wife has just has this reach, this God-given reach to so many ladies in our ministry and her friend group. And I truly believe part of my purpose is supporting
her and what she's doing. And if she had no purpose, and she just wasn't interested in anything else, I mean, what are you going to share? I mean, as a marriage partner, you have to have a purpose in that marriage is that you have to have a divine kind of focus and a ministry. It's so much easier to redirect a train when it's moving. And if you're sitting still, I can't see how God's going to move you to do something.
That's such a good analogy. I love it. Chase after God, be on the moving train. Matt, this is so awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your heart and diving into stuff that sometimes is more difficult to talk about. I mean, we just went into some of that and it's good. And we need to have these conversations. So I just appreciate your heart so much. And just thank you so much for being on today. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thank you.
Y'all, I really hope that after today, you understand how important discipleship is. Whether you are a man or a woman, single or dating, we need to incorporate it for further growth and sanctification. So I challenge you to think about how are you incorporating this into your life? How are you making it a priority? And then how are you discipling others? This is such a key discipline
that Christ calls us to and one that we must be prioritizing right now. I love how Matt talked about how this moment and singleness is our best opportunity to truly know the heart of God. We should be aiming to get to know him as best as we possibly can. So friends, that's my challenge for you. That is my hope and my prayer for you right now in this season. Grow closer to the heart of God. Prioritize discipleship. Grow and learn more about yourself. And in doing all of this,
be even that much more prepared to date healthily. All right, guys. Love this episode today. And I can't wait to see you next week.