Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kate. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying?
Now let's get to the heart of the matter. Can you all believe we are already rounding out 2018? Isn't it crazy? Okay, so in the spirit of New Year's resolutions and just making all things new, I want to share with you something I'm now offering. Dating can be confusing and murky and sometimes we need a reset button. So if you want some extra help or advice, whether you're in a relationship or just pursuing singleness right now, I am now offering one-on-one relationship coaching.
We will together develop a plan of action for your dating life and find ways of opportunity that will leave you inspired in love and in wholeness with a brand new vision. So if you're interested, you can find out more at heartofdating.com forward slash coaching. Now for today's episode, I brought on my friends Chris Wolfe and Kristen Dalton Wolfe. Our conversation revolved around the importance of pursue and romance in relationship.
Because y'all, these two things are important. So let me tell you who they are. You might actually remember Chris from earlier this year. He was on our Me Too and Masculinity episodes and he is amazing. He inspires other men to be their best selves. In the process, he has written some amazing books and he also runs an online ministry called Good Guys Wag.
His lovely wife, Kristen Dalton Wolfe, is a sparkly joy-filled, encouraging woman. She's a former Miss USA who helps women to step into the radiance of their true identity. She has used this passion to also launch She Is More.com, which is a faith filled blog. She is lastly an author of multiple books, including her amazing latest book, The Sparkle Effect, which I love. Together, they run men and women's ministries here around LA and they also run retreats and conferences.
Y'all, they are powerful and wise. So to have them on today was such a treat. As I mentioned before, Kristen Christian believed in the importance of pursuit and romance and dating as do I. So today we talk about why this is so important. How we should do it and in the process, what we should actually be looking for. So I hope you enjoy this energetic conversation with my lovely friends, Chris and Kristen.
Hey, guys, welcome to the heart of dating. So excited to have you. So fun. So fun. This is like our date night. What if you came up with a little home part of the day? It came to you. This is not a humble apartment. This is pretty and there's like, it's clean. It is. I like that. So you are too much alike, by the way, you all love everything white and you love Disney. I love Lenin. This next to God. And magic. I know. I love all the sparkles.
I know. I meant to be so glad. Tell everyone why you love sparkles so much. Oh gosh. I love the sparkles. I love the thing. I should ask. Well, I mean, I see what you're I see what's happening here, pitching it to me. So I'm going to take it. I wrote a book called the sparkle effect. And the reason why is because I just noticed that in a lot of in women who tend to rise up and they're like dreams or their callings tend to have this one thing in common.
I mean, I saw a lot of people call it the it factor, but I don't like the it factor because it's too mysterious and vague and it just leaves girls to like turn it on and fake it till they make it. And I'm really tired of faking it. And we don't have to fake it as God's daughter. So it's just ridiculous. So I decided to write a book to break it down.
And to define I call it the sparkle effects because when I competed for Miss USA back in a disay, I was not a front runner. I know I'm predicting you to win. So that's always fun. You know, when you're like, oh, wonderful. Yeah, but it's kind of like I'm on no one's I'm like excited about. Oh, because you're like, this is a challenge. Oh, yeah.
Like I'm like, I'm gonna do this. It's like exciting when you're not on people's radar because you're like, they don't know what's coming. Oh my gosh. So I knew the fire. I knew it was gonna be an upset. Yes. And so, but that night that I won this USA, the head judge came up to me after. And she's like, hey, Kirsten, I just want to tell you that after they announced the top 15, all the judges leaned into me and because they're all like celebrity judges, they are not like season,
and the patent judges. So they're like, how do we know how to pick all these girls are pretty. And she's like, oh, you're gonna see it in a girl. It's the girl who sparkles. And then her eyes and then her smile. Yeah. And then she said, after the commercial break, they all lean back in and they were like, oh, we see you're talking about we see the girl who sparkles. And she goes, Kristen, that girl was you.
And I didn't really think much about it until, you know, I mean, I moved out to Los Angeles after my years, Miss USA, I was like working in entertainment, going on auditions all the time with all the girls who were like beautiful. Look, we all look alike. You know, same height, same, same clothing size, blonde, you know, same like black dress. It's like, how do you stand out?
And I was like, also judging and coaching girls. And I remember I was asked to do a TEDx talk. I think it was a fluke. I think they asked them to ask my sister, but she didn't want to do it. So she's like, well, you do it for me. And I was like, yeah, hello. And so Kristen, I was sitting in the plane and I'm like, what am I going to talk about because it has to be a novel idea, you know, I'm just spreading. What do I have to say that novel? And Chris is like, well, what is that sparkle?
You know, what did it take to stand out? What is that like mysterious quality? Like, let's break it down. And I was like, oh, my God, that's so true. And God had just like really transformed me. And I like set me free. Since I was like a young girl, I when I was 13 years old, I had this vision of myself like, where my eyes were sad. And I was like kind of like dull.
And I didn't know who I was and then I was raised a Christian my whole life, but I didn't know my identity as God's daughter. I didn't know what really I had access to when he said about me and the promises and the power and the purpose and all the good stuff. And so, yeah, God like crowned me and I mean, yeah, he transformed me from the inside out, set me free from things like insecurity, comparison, you know, jealousy, all the, all the things, depression, anxiety.
And I was like, I want every girl to have this, you know, and these are the things. This is what it takes to release that factor or that to press out that sparkle. Yeah. So I decided to write a book called the sparkle effect. Which by the way, Kate, Kristen has said to me before she's like, Kate has the sparkle effect. Oh, you guys, it's amazing. Thank you.
Before we even got started talking in general, Kristen said, you know, Kate, like I just, do we ever Cinderella? I didn't know. But I wish. Can I be still? Like, yeah, guys. And as you were sharing that story, one of the celebrity judges was Perez Hilton and didn't he come up to you afterwards and say that you reminded him of Cinderella? Yes. Well, there you go. Oh, God. There you go. Salsa. Salsa. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Okay, but something I love even just kind of what you just said, Kristen, in that story, kind of transitioning into our topic for the day is that you knew that maybe you were like maybe the underdog coming into this page and you were like, they don't even know what's coming. I'm going to turn it on and they're going to see. And I'm going to show them that this is something amazing, like who I am. Right.
And that kind of brings me to this topic of pursuit because I kind of feel when we talk about this, like, pursue in dating, which you guys have such a great. And I love a little bit and Chris has shared a little bit before his pursuit for you. But we kind of have to come to the table of like, okay, we're going to give it our all, like give it our all, right? And I think that sometimes we don't sometimes we kind of like, let me just see how it goes.
And I'm just going to take them, you know, we don't really put in the effort. We don't give it our best foot forward. And I don't mean like, oh, show all your cards up front, like everything about you on the first date. But I just mean in the pursuit, I think we've lost some of that. So kind of want to talk and tap into that subject a little bit and kind of maybe hear just a little bit about your story and how even pursue happened in your life and your relationship.
Now marriage. Yeah. Well, I think by the way that pursuit can be wrapped up in a girl understanding her worth. Mm hmm. And a guy recognizing that worth. Yes. Yes. I think that's what pursuit is all about. I love that. And to your point about in dating and in the pursuit how it seems like there's this attitude of, oh, I'm just going to like see what happens. And kind of have like the spare weather attitude. I think part of it is because people have lost hope.
And they're like, they kind of, it's like this form of self protection. You know, like I don't want to put too much into it because of, because the rejection will hurt too much. So I'm just going to kind of like have one foot and one foot out. Yeah. And part of which is super common, especially in LA. Yeah. We're afraid of our ability. And as we're supposed to protect our heart. But yeah, to that point, people don't really put both feet forward.
They're like, I just also because they're, we are in us like a culture right now, the paradox of choice. We have so many options, so many choices. And like we're, you know, right in this book actually sitting right there, the Divine Sex book by Jonathan Grant. It's such a good reference. But it talks about where are we're so influenced by even advertising. We go to the mall and you are advertised whatever it is. It's on sale and amazing. And you have to have it.
And then that thing starts not becoming so exciting anymore. And you're advertising thing else. And that seems more new and exciting. And that can, that translates into what I call the consumeristic mentality. Not I didn't coin that, but that's just that. But that is what dating somewhat has become. It has become that way. So because of that, we're like, well, I'm not going to put all my feet in to trying to pursue this.
When I know that maybe as soon as I see something that's not quite right, I'm going to jump to something else. That's new and shiny and amazing and wonderful. And will please me for another few months. And the cycle continues. Yeah, it's such an interesting balance. And I think the whole kind of like our belief as Christians and waiting for God's best can play into that like consumerism, dating mentality of like, you're not his best next.
You know, because they like just because they have a flaw. Yeah. Or because he forgot to call you at the hour, he said he was going to call you or whatever it is. So yeah, it's important to, I mean, you've talked about this to focus on the character qualities. And but to also know that relationship is also a refining process, you know, that it's actually what it's called. I mean, I feel like God created marriage to what he did create marriage to emulate our relationship.
Christ relationship with church like the body of Christ and that is refining. It's totally refining. It's totally a sanctification process. I always tell people we're never going to be arrived. We're always going to be in process and constantly moving and growing. And you want to find someone who is just willing to constantly learn and grow alongside you and run with you. And you can't be refined and you can't grow if you're playing it safe.
True. And so the one foot in one foot out, that's really about that's like that's a safety net. Yeah. And there's no growth and safety. Every growth that happens, whether it be mental growth, physical, I mean, physical growth, you know, I was just at the gym. Like you have to, you actually need resistance in your life in order to grow. Oh, that's good. Okay. So I know that at the beginning of your pursuit, like, Christen, you turned, Christ down a few times apparently.
So I heard, how did this process work for you and what was maybe different that process for you guys than was maybe in the past? Well, so, okay. So I had just gone through probably the most, the hardest breakup of my life of my adult life. And I made a resolve that I was never going to date a guy again until I knew he was my husband. Or I wasn't going to call him my boyfriend until I knew he was my husband. We weren't going to become Facebook, you know, status official.
None of that until we were engaged because I wasn't going to try to be like breaking out with nobody again. No, it's so it's tough. Yep. So, um, so this time around, I was just like super, uh, kind of like a hawk when I came to dating. And I was like, I was watching everything. You know, like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be exclusive with anyone. I didn't want to be my boyfriend until I was like, I need to see certain things.
And so I was just a little bit more guarded because I have this history of I love falling in love. It's like super fun. So, uh, I like, I love you. I love you. Oh my gosh. Like a month then. And this is so fun. All the feels. I feel like it's magical. Yeah. So I knew I needed to do it different this time. Um, and just kind of be a little bit more on guard. Yeah. So, uh, that doesn't, I mean, I wasn't dating.
Um, I was like going on dates, you know, because I think it's important to date from a place of abundance, not from a place of desperation. Yes. You know, like you don't want to just mean like dating from abundance, like dating a ton. It can, it can, it can mean that and it can also mean. Wait, so I wasn't the only guy that you were dating. Is that? No. But this is, I kind of knew this a little bit. You need to have. I mean, there was a line like at this Bible study.
So, you know, I was waiting my turn. Oh my gosh. And I, and now I'm going to talk to. I just want to, I just want to see who's going to rise up out of the pack. You know, so, um, no, but I'm just saying it's okay. It's okay to, to, I agree with you totally. Well, dating is active and not passive. Like we're not just sitting here waiting for a man to magically show up on our doorstep. That doesn't happen. We say that all the time. I'm just going to wait. I'm just going to wait.
And you're just going to show up. I'm like, it doesn't. You're not. Mm-hmm. You happen like that. Yeah. So that's, I'm, I'm all about that. Yeah. And we did, we did, by the way, you know, in terms of just like sitting around and waiting. I mean, at least, you know, like we met in a Bible study. So, you know, you were, you were actually going to that Bible study. Mm-hmm. And, you know, you were actually going out and I was going out. We just happened to meet.
Mm-hmm. And I think part of one of the reasons why she might have rejected some of my initial advances is because, you know, I met her that night and then I actually forgot to get her number. So I found her on Facebook. I don't even think Instagram existed at that point. It didn't. And, um, No sliding into the door. I wasn't really using it. Yeah. No, no, actually it didn't because I actually started your Instagram remember. Yeah. On her second day.
Yeah. Oh, my God. It was just getting started around that point. So anyway, I found her on Facebook. I friend requested her and, um, luckily she did by head and exceeded it at that point. Her, uh, Facebook limit friend request. And I sent her a message and I just basically, I have all of them still. It's kind of fun to go back and look at her initial messages. And I just said it was so great to meet you.
And, you know, at the time, I was just kind of actually getting started with the, the men's group, the elements group that I've been doing for a while. And every Saturday we did beach volleyball. So I thought it would be a great idea and something that might not seem like as, you know, intimidating. If I just invited her to come play beach volleyball with a bunch of us. But so that that was the first thing I asked her to do. I said, Hey, do you want to come play?
I mean, like literally talked for five to 10 minutes at my will study one night. And then he basically sends me a message the next day. Like it was so nice to meet you. Do you want to come play beach volleyball this weekend with my friends? And I'm just like, no. I mean, she thought like the only thing I wanted to do was see her in this swimsuit. But oh my god. I mean, that was part of it. But I also, I mean, it's also my personality type.
Maybe another girl would have been like, yeah, like totally down for that. If she's really open and outward and extroverted and like loves to meet new people. And that kind of setting. But I'm not like that. I'm more like you are an introverted. I'm more introverted. And I also didn't know why he was inviting me. I'm like, what's your intention? You know, but I kind of love this whole thing that happened because when I meet someone, because I happens to me and people will reach out.
And I'm like, OK, OK, you I met you for like two seconds and you reach out. Now I'm paying attention to you. Because who knows when you're going to see him again. I mean, maybe because I'm going to see him again. I'm going to see him again. I'm going to see him again. I'm going to see him again. I'm going to see him again. I'm going to see him again. I mean, maybe because of the Bible study. But if you were just dropping in or a friend that invited you, you may never see her again.
Yeah. So that's right. So that's good. I just I'm someone I'm like, I like clarity. Yeah. So I wanted to know, I don't like, you know, you want to hang out. Totally. You're not. Yeah. Function. You want to come be with my friends and watch a mood. Have a movie night. I'm like, I don't know what that is. No. You were like, if you're really interested, you're going to ask me on the date. On a date. A pastor I read recently said in this book that he took the survey of girls at the his church.
And they actually, the survey said that women actually hate when a guy is like, do you just want to hang out? Do you just want to hang out? Yeah. Because what does that mean? Am I so rude? Like, all these things go through your mind. Do you want to hang out as a friend? Do you want to like, want to hang out as more than a friend? No clarity. And it leaves us. Is there other people? Yeah. And then you end up kind of can end up staying in that confused state throughout an entire relationship.
It's crazy how that happens. But, you know, so when I invited Kristen to complete Beach volleyball, I think I invited you on what, a Thursday or Friday. Yeah. But you didn't get back to me until Monday. And then you wrote back and you said, I'm so sorry. I'm really bad about checking my Facebook messages. My mom was in town or something. And I said, I'm really bad about checking my Facebook messages too. What's your number? Really smooth. Which was also good.
Perfect. Even though I was checking my Facebook messages every like five seconds. Oh, that's good. Did she respond? I was like, I will not send the message until she responds back. I will not. I feel like I'm such a tricky, like I'm such a hard person to date. So like praise the Lord for Chris. But I also like on one hand where I like where I like clarity, I also get, I don't like when a guy is like too forward. Or comes at me like too soon, you know. Or is like, do you know what I mean?
Like right away, they're like, let's go and date. And I'm like, like it's too much. You just make you two seconds together. Yeah. And so it was good for Chris to kind of like play it cool. And for me to kind of have my like space. And for us to kind of do this little dance for a little bit. So we can warm into it. But then I got her number. And then I. It really was only that one thing. That's amazing. So then you got her number from there. Yeah. And I. Did I call you right away?
Or like you can use social media to connect with people. Or a beautiful thing. Of course I work totally into it's fine to slide into the DMs or the Facebook Insta Messenger. Yeah. Or whatever it's called. And that's fine. Yes. Why not? I have two best friends who met their husbands one on Twitter and one on Facebook. So there you go. I've gone out with people who've asked me out on, okay, I don't know why I just said that. I can't. This is like, these are not some just now.
But. You can DM it's kateness K.A.I. I love it. Thank you very much. Critical. It's like my dating business card. It's like right there. Anyway. But it's true because if someone pursues me in that way, I'm like, okay, they they're looking. They kind of can see what I'm like already by that in a way. So I don't mind it at all. Okay, we did meet in person first before I, you know, friend requested her. So I don't know if that's good or bad. But, but yeah, did I call you right away after?
I don't know if it was right away. It probably wasn't right away because I also don't answer calls where I don't have the number saved. That's just scary. She definitely did not answer my first call. You might get caught on a conversation. You don't want to be in, you know. So I didn't like that he actually called because that's another thing that people only text and I do think that there's a power in the call. There is a power in the call and calling a girl regularly or vice versa.
But in the beginning, I really liked the call. Yeah, yeah. And I appreciated that and he loved a voice, not very enthusiastic. He did it. He didn't identify himself. So he must have thought he was the only guy in the picture. But I was just like, who did I get my number to? Which one was it? This guy. And then all the other. I think it's the guy on Facebook and then I went and matched the numbers because he had also sent his. And then I'm such a, I am so weird.
Everyone can be like, this girl is crazy. But I, I don't really like talking on the phone. Yeah. So I would, I would just like text him back and be like, I'm so sorry. I'm really busy to hate. So like we have a tech. Yeah. So I'm a little bit more old school. So I wasn't like a text or I would typically call. She was a guard. Yeah. So I knew that there was like, yeah. And I knew like I did not have good texting game. So terrible. Okay. I'll go ahead. I should have broken up over that.
So I, but I knew that there was like some hope because even though she wouldn't, she would never pick up any of my calls. She would at least text me back. So I was like, okay. I was giving you something to work with. But then one night probably like two weeks into the texting game. I had maybe like, you know, two bosses of wine. Now I was chilling at home. It was like 1030. And then Chris called me and I was like, Oh, what the heck? Can I answer the phone? We had like a five hour conversation.
And Jesus turned water into one. Yeah. So anyway, and then we ended up talking until like what? Like 530 in the morning or something like that. And then I had to get up super early. I had a conference call right at eight. And so I look like, I mean, I look like to plan that's emerging from my like eye sockets in the morning. And then I had to go to work and I was completely out of it. But I was on cloud nine, the rest of the day. Okay. So I guess I kind of answered some of my questions.
I was going to say Chris, like what moves? Okay. So then you are like, you're going your first date. What other moves are like things of you do to move? Or would you suggest for guys in general to do it the beginning of dating? Okay. Well, well, first of all, so yeah, I think there are five times that asked her out. And she kept on just, you know, I don't know if she was busy or if I was being rejected or whatnot. But finally, I was actually busy.
Yeah. I think that's maybe going on another date. Who knows? But um, but, but, but finally I just said, you know what? I'm sorry, but that's true. Like if you're not going to make plans with me, I'm available in two weeks. So don't think I'm available last minute. Better check yourself. But time is valuable. Plan it out. Yeah. So I was finally in touch and I just said, look, I'm going to take you out. I'm going to take you out Monday or Wednesday, which one works best for you.
And then she wrote me back and she's like, all right, fine. You can take me out of Monday night, but you have to have me home by 10 p.m. And so I actually, you know, and I don't know how, you know, I feel like just, even though there were five years out of the dating scene, I feel like so much has changed then.
But, you know, I went and picked her up and I actually listened to because something that she had told me when we first started to just talk and hang out as I found out that she was vegetarian. Vegan. Oh, you're paying attention in the little details that. Yeah. And I was like, okay, so she's vegan and I was like, where are some places I can take her to when there was this restaurant in LA. It's called, you know, it still exists. It's called Cafe Gratitude. Oh, yeah.
And I took her to Cafe Gratitude and it was perfect because you sit down and they give you like kind of like an icebreaker question already. It's the perfect first date spot. Oh, that's so vegan. Yeah. Maybe if not, I don't know. They just have great food and great ambiance. Yeah. But I love that. You were thoughtful and then you had already a question for you guys to talk about. And then I don't know somehow, you know, we kind of just ended up bonding even on that trip.
So I picked her up, you know, I worked out beforehand. I remember I was like throwing all my gym stuff in the back really quick and there's still like a banana peel or something up front. But we're heading to Cafe Gratitude and I don't even know how, but like luckily we're both a little bit, you know, cheesy, dorky like and so she's like somehow we end up talking about like music and she ends up like sharing this like point of grace song and I was like, oh, I got I got a great.
I got a great steam Curtis Chapman song and it was called Cinderella and she actually ended up Cinderella. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, there's a Cinderella theme going on here tonight. But anyway, it's no. So I play Cinderella and that ends up being actually the song that she dances to with her dad at her wedding. Oh, my God. And it was like really weird when he was playing the song and like well, first of all, I was just like, he has Stephen Curtis Chapman on his playlist. Don't judge me.
Don't judge me. No, I love it. You're telling I was like, oh, he's like a real Christian, you know? I love that. And you hate the lean Dion. You can't date me. That's just like a guy. Yeah. And then the I love that guys can learn so much about you just by listening to your own. I don't need to date you just listen to my podcast. So de-incateness and your favorite Celine Dion song. Actually, really good. Honestly, I'd be so impressed. I'm not going to say anymore.
You can be attached to me like this. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Even the PG. We're only allowed for the Christian side hugs. No, we have to. The same thing. I'm surprised you saying that song because usually you're singing this Celine Dion. That the one that she sings at her place all the time. It kind of drives me nuts a little bit, but I'm sorry. I'm admitting this on here. But you're like, and that's the way it is. That's the way it is.
She's seriously, I swear, she's saying it within the past few days. Easy. No doubt. I don't think it's the music. But I don't even know what else to sing anymore. I feel like I was on a roll and then it got in a row. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You, Stephen Curry. Thanks, Charlie. Yes, 작man. We're just kidding. 작man, Kyl's, and that was him. And then the fact that I didn't even know about the Cinderella song and Chris knew about it. I was like, this is like, amazing. Oh, yeah, that's awesome.
And he's like, I want to say this song. And he's like. Dada, all da, all da. And so I was like, oh my gosh, it was literally like electricity in the car. Like I was in there like, what's happening right now and I started getting emotional. And then Chris was like, were you tearing up too? We were both. I was like turning the other way because I was like Was that this girl?
Oh my gosh, I found my cheesy Christian match, you know, but it's kind of true But it was kind of like this magical prophetic moment of like this is your husband Like this is the music that you're gonna play at your wedding, you know And not to say it always has to you know to be that way because like I said I was I was rejected a few times before we went on that first date But that first date I remember I actually even texted one of my mentors and I was like this is gonna sound really weird
But I think that I met my wife tonight Wow Well God unfolds our love story and writes it for our personality types Yeah, I agree And what's important for our heart You know like you were a magical like you want to be a romance like you're a girl You want to feel feminine and cared for and Dode it on and all of that gets and pursued yeah, yeah, I feel like other girls
Maybe that's not their right thing and it's true. I feel like besties with their boyfriend. Yeah They want just like a different dining of it and any of the ultra romance is gonna be too sappy for them Meanwhile, I'm like give me all the cheesy. I love cheese. Yeah, please, you know and other women not exactly the same
So I do agree with that. That's beautiful actually Friends okay exciting news so through all of my podcast conversations meeting with pastor speakers and authors the reading of every Relationship book under the sun coupled with my own 15 years of dating experience
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There will also be bonus content including the ultimate dating essentials checklist the top secrets to initiating the love thyself guide and the ultimate breakup Bible study and prayer guide I am giving heart of dating listeners the chance to get on a special list to have first access to this court You can visit heart of dating.com slash date great to reserve your spot today I have so much hope and excitement for all of you
I really don't want you to have to go through all the pain destruction and frustration. I went through you are ready for freedom and breakthrough and an amazing Relationship so visit heart of dating.com slash date great I think it's okay to just say out loud that it's okay for a woman to want a man to romance her or to want and enjoy romance even if you're a man And I think that we've kind of lost touch of some of that a little bit the romance in dating um and
Yeah, what do you guys think about that is that what what are your thoughts on romance? I I feel like Like women feel like they have to downplay that Mm-hmm. They have to downplay that desire because it comes off as to high maintenance or like crazy girl or Not realistic or whatever it is and so girls. I feel like all the time girls like oh like Like we can just like casually hang out. You know like we can just be casual and
But like that's not their heart. Yeah, they're just trying to be like cool and trying to get the guy to think they're cool But ultimately they're let down yeah, and it's like they think that if the guy thinks they're cool then maybe ultimately
Eventually he will romance and but that's just does not happen that way And it does happen sometimes but probably more often than for not I mean once you kind of set up I mean the thing is set a precedent is yeah Once you set a precedent and you usually set that precedent in the dating phase That's kind of what's going to be carried through so like if you're cool with the relationship being cash while you're dating It's probably going to be extremely cash when you're married
And um and I mean and speaking of that too like you said is it okay? Of course it's okay for a girl to want to be pursued and um Like I think I just kind of I enjoy doing You know kind of like you know even yesterday our moms were in town I'm like we're going to the pumpkin patch and you know I like enjoy like Creating experience. Yeah creating experiences. And so you know, I I like to Woo when romance my wife because like you know, I know that she loves
Like whereas I'm more kind of like a hell of food fanatic. She like she like on Beyonce is very important to her So she likes twinkling lights. So I like to find places that have twinkling lights for her and Like that that mean I mean if it literally we could be eating hot dogs under twinkling lights and she'd be happy Yeah, and something about that too is that you're um
Something that brings her joy also brings you joy for sure I'm sure when you do things for Chris and that's kind of like I think the point of romance is that the way I said it to someone recently is It's I think that just like sex is important in marriage like it is an important aspect of marriage Um, and it's not the like vital like it's not the end all the
Right, but it is important in marriage. I think romance is also important in dating and in your relationship because There is that level of connection that you have through romance And I think that that isn't important part of relationship and it's different for different people like some people experience romance differently But I think it's important to have that and I think you know that You're there's maybe an issue when you're not
You when you don't desire to do things that bring the other person joy You know when you're not getting joy from even seeing them joyous. That's you know, that's I don't know I think that's just a heart check for people if that's happening
Maybe it's not the right person. Maybe you have to go internally and figure out why but I have Experience people who are like well romance is like no no no no And I'm not talking about infatuation because there is a difference of being like just overly infatuated with someone that you're blind to love and You know, yeah, but I think romance could be a beautiful part of that connection piece which we lose connection
In our relationships even in dating so easily sometimes if you're dating for three months six months Whatever it is you can be going through the motions and you lose the sense of feeling connected to the other person Well, let me say the same like what like the same thing that happens in a dating relationship is what can happen in a married life to you know If I'm not taking Kristen on dates then then yeah, we we actually start to like you can feel
Detention detention and you can feel the connection kind of dissipating a little bit And so that's always a good reminder like no, I have to pursue my wife. It's a continual pursuit And I it's important that I take her on on a date night Yeah, and I feel like romance like because when you say the word romance I feel like what you should pop stuff in our minds is like rose petals and light right you know candle lit dinners um but romance is really just
Being thoughtful and noticing what's important to someone's heart. Yes, and Wanting to like to speak to that. It's like it's like I mean Jesus romances us I mean he knows he knows how he created us like I feel like even just how He will romance us with like the sunset or the beating hues in the sky if he knows we love like sunsets or um I don't know just like little things like that. I feel like Jesus is like always pursuing our heart
And that's really what romance is. It's like do you care about the person's heart? Do you care about what's important to them or you're gonna do something about it? Yeah, I love that and it's that's why it's not It's specific to the person because some people don't feel romance necessarily by roses. They're like great feels home our pretty flower. Yeah, you know, and it doesn't They might be romance by something else, you know exactly and so I think that's beautiful
Yeah, I'm figuring out what that is. I wanted to know and paying attention things up full And I love what you said too, Chris that romance and really pursuit doesn't stop in the beginning of dating I think that's It should
But I think that that is what happens. I see a lot of people they're dating a few months and maybe it's set out strong But after a few months, they're not even going on dates anymore Yeah, and they're they kind of settle in to like a comfortable rhythm Yeah, and you're like okay at that point, you know if that's Something that's okay with you then fine let that continue
But if it's it's something that um really upsets you then you can be like okay great. Well, I'm seeing a little bit of Of a little bit more of who you are and this isn't really what I want for my life And that's okay to walk away at that point I think there's also a level of just communicating that too if you really are noticing like hey We haven't gone on a date in a while. Can we Plan it like one day to week. Can we make a date?
And I it doesn't have to be like fancy. It could be like we're making dinner. Yeah, one of our apartments together Yeah, and we're gonna make one of our favorite meals one of and next week will make your favorite meal Yeah, it's a dedicated time and to have intentional conversation and make it like we're across or Sitting with each other and having this intentional time
Versus like oh equal. I'll see you at that group thing or I'll see you here. We'll kind of hang out here There's something different about the date or the intentionality of it Yeah, group events once you're well into a dating relationship are those don't qualify as dates anymore at least not for For Kristen um
But I'm not for Chris. I am so I mean But it is given take you know, I would I would say there's been some times especially like there's been a lot of like craziness It's happened in our lives, you know in this past season and there's been sometimes that really Kristen has had to be like
Okay, like I I got the babysitter tonight so we can go on a date And that's great and and um and that kind of can fill in some of the missing gaps But once again like Kristen feels most special when I'm the one who Makes the plan to make the plan to figure out, you know, and figures out where we're going So Chris also you wrote this book 10 ways to win a girls heart and you kind of talk about I feel like there's some guys who are just afraid to pursue women and I'm not saying all guys
I just feel like sometimes that happens So do you have advice for guys who might be like oh, I don't know like what if she's gonna turn me down or what if I'm She's out of my league or whatever that is like yeah Well, I mean, you know once again this goes back to what we're just talking about
I think with the apps and and they're you know so much of us having online personas and you know I know guys who are really really great at texting But they're terrible in one-on-one conversation I've heard of that too and so So you know even though you have all these apps and you can sit at home and do this like I think it's really important to like go out and um and introduce yourself to people and and if you're not like the type of guy That feels comfortable
Just start with little things like strike up a conversation with someone while you're waiting in line at Starbucks You know, like learn how to communicate with people not on a non-romantic basis And and learn how to make friends and go outside of your comfort zone and little ways throughout the day
And I think that once you become more comfortable And you you're able to take those little baby steps then you're ready for bigger steps and then and And yeah, I think a lot of guys get scared to sometimes that they're gonna be rejected if they go out and um
And they go straight up to a girl and start talking to her But um But once again, I think we discussed in the beginning there's there's There's no romance and safety Well um Remember you've talked about this before when you the first night that you came up to me
Remember yeah, how you were like oh, yeah, well, I can talk about that So I remember like the the first night that I saw Kristen um You know, and I would say in the past if I was at kind of like a little Bible study or party I would you know, be like okay, you know what?
I'm I can't go and talk to her right now. I'd go into the bathroom or something and psych myself up like do push up I don't know But um but blood flowing but it was in that moment I was like oh, I was actually like looking at her because I can I can see it clear as day right now
I was looking at her to my left and I was looking to the restroom at the right and I knew that I had a choice I can either just go to the restroom because her and I had just briefly made eye contact And I was like I can either go up and and and like burst through
My fear and have a little bit more courage because by the way like courage is um is acting from the heart Even in the presence of fear or I can go and try once again to To go to the bathroom and try to like psych myself up You know kind of like persona but that but that had never worked in the past So it was kind of like the supiphany at that moment like I can either do this or do that And I was like no I have to go and talk to her at that moment and be real and be yeah Yeah
Evening your like quote cheesy notes. Yeah, and even in doing that no matter what she said
That's like a little victory. You're like okay. I'm getting over this fear that I have yeah Even if you're challenging yourself to be like I can do this I can go down my comfort zone and go up to someone and like it's a for everyone listening Even if the girl or if it's a girl going to guy whatever it is even if they say no It's still a little victory you stepped out of your comfort zone and you should be patting yourself on the back for that
That's awesome and it was like looking back. It was a huge victory Even if nothing would have come out of that that would have been a big Personal step for me But the good thing is is like you know I just went up and I was like I'm just gonna be casual and get to know her and and like try to like not Throw any vibes out that I'm super interested in her Mm-hmm. And yeah, she hadn't she had no idea that I was interested in her apparently
I love that though. I love it because I think rejection doesn't have to take us down Like little rejections don't have to or if even if you're going through the process and after a few dates Someone says I only am interested in you and a friend I think that that also limits people from wanting to pursue again. They're like oh my gosh Well, I did it. I put all my effort forward and it failed
Yeah, so I'm not gonna do it again. They kind of get burnt out or tainted you know what I mean and I just think like we need to get back up and do it again Like it's okay and if you're noticing though that it I would say if you are noticing that it's hitting yourself Worth too much you need to look into that because You know, where are you getting your sense of worth and value from?
Because it isn't from a person saying yes or no to you It's that shouldn't be what it's from and I think when we're too hit by rejection We're getting we're looking for validation from the wrong things And I think that there's a lot of if we can just like reframe our perspective and remember like we're only looking for one person Yeah, we're looking for our husband or our wife. So the more know is the better
the more knows like thank you goodbye. Thank you next thank you next, you know like why do we need to dwell on the know? It's like thank you for saving me from but would it could have been Something that it was never gonna end up a marriage, you know, I say it too. It's like rejection is really protection and redirection Like as cheesy as that sounds with the rhyming. It's true. God is redirecting you
So now every time a guy ID is like you're amazing, but I just don't know. I don't know if this is right. I'm like okay That's totally fine. It's fine. His heart was not ignited towards me and I'm okay with that Because that means that I didn't have to go through the grueling process of getting to know this person so in depth That then it hurts like Heck when you have a heartbreak. Yeah, a deep heartbreak. So I'm like that's fine
That's okay, and you can still look at that person and be like that's fine. This could be an amazing person for someone else So another thing that you guys did that I really love is that you both published these amazing lists You have like the husband lifts and the wife lifts right and I love that because a lot of what I talk about is that we really need to know what we're looking for when we're going into the pursuit Like you have to have a clear vision of what I ask people all the time
What are you what are you looking for and they're like? I don't know. I've never really thought about it I guess other than they love Jesus like well, okay, that's that's a good starting point But one else is there so much more to a person And to not have such an endless list that you know, it's so specific and narrow But that we're really checking the quality of our qualifications and that it worked We have really true solid character quality
So I don't know. I just would love for you guys to share maybe a little of the of the things that you guys have talked about That are important to look for a men and women in that process of pursuit Well, just also like talking on the importance of a list because I think I mean obviously he wrote these articles So we had a lot of people who love them when we had a lot of people who are like terrible
You know, you should have a list. They're so mean and like it's crazy what can cause conjurers But um that's crazy though Just because they feel like it's like confining or putting people in a box But that's not the purpose of a list the purpose of creating a list is Basically creating a filter for you and boundaries for yourself because honestly like we can't necessarily always trust ourselves To not like fall victim and prey to our little feelings and hormones and true all the
Confiduation and all the things that happen which is true exactly. So it keeps it keeps our eyes clear Even when our feelings are telling us something different And it's like hey, let's get back to When you were in a sober and clear mind And you were like this is what god wants for me and this is what I want for me is this person Does you know is this person showing me these things right?
So you can save yourself like we're talking about the unnecessary wasted time and unnecessary wasted heart space So that is the purpose of a list and Kristen by the way her list was like a few pages long So you know, I ended up kind of hearing about this list and finally I was like, okay, you know what?
I just need to hear this list because I was in the back of my mind I was fearful that all of a sudden she was gonna be like okay like I need him to make like 500,000 a year He needs to live in like a big mansion like I thought these were the things that we're gonna be exposed on this list But um, but I think when she shared her list with me It gave me a big peak into her heart and I saw all of these qualities that she was looking for and rather than being
Intimidated by him. I was like wow, this is This is actually me That that was when after you finish that list. I mean, I think the only external quality that you had on there is you just said I would like to have someone who Wants to be more physically fit because I enjoy going on hikes and I would love for him to go on a hike with me Be active with me. Yeah, be active with me Yeah But three do you want me to share like some of the things that you're sharing?
Sure, if you have them and Chris, I'd love to share some of yours too like just on both sides. Yeah um Okay, so three I think so my top three yeah are A that he holds himself accountable to god standards and not his own That's good so important like through life who is he holding himself accountable to Because I feel like a lot of times you can be like oh, he's a really good, but he's a good person though He does he's not necessarily a believer
He doesn't necessarily have like a active relationship with god, but he's a good person Mm-hmm, and I said that I was in a relationship where that that was my justification Um, I mean he was honestly a better person than most accretion guys ad met
So I was just I actually got confused about the whole christian thing honestly. Yeah, oh girl that I hear a lot of that from people too. Yeah Uh, yeah, I had a lot of questions, but um But I think through the relationship it did play out where um, in certain uh In certain situations where the pressure was on He made decisions out of emotion Mm-hmm, and not out of integrity. Yeah, and I was like mm-hmm You know Um, I want to be married to someone who is going to
Hold himself accountable to god standards and not him him being a good person. Yeah, or like what he feels Oh, that's what I felt in the moment so right You know, uh, so that's the first thing the second thing um is That was really important to me is that he showed me that he had consistent character Across time and situations and groups of people Mm-hmm because when you're deciding on who you're gonna marry
Like you don't know what your future is gonna look like. You don't know what obstacles are gonna come your way You don't like I mean one of the things I was scared of is like is he gonna change? You know, is he going to stop
pursuing me? Is he gonna stop room? Is he gonna like be coming alcoholic? Is he going to You know, thinking that maybe I might treat you different around my friends and not not just you Yeah, like just in general I think those are like fears that how to about getting married because you don't know how they're gonna you have no idea And so for me one of the best gauges is to look at past Look at his past and look at how he treats
All kinds of people whether you're in a restaurant. How is he treating the server? Yeah Um, how does he treat the cashier at the grocery store? How does he treat the children? How does he treat the person who's driving in front of him?
Um, I'm not the one on that one Yeah Mm-hmm Yeah, uh and and all across situations because I had dated guys in the past were like They're so made they like they were like loved me, you know They were like all about me and then they would invite me to meet their family And then they would leave me hanging Like I had to like they wanted to like almost like see how I would act by myself and they weren't like next to me
You know like a part of the conversation. I was like handling all my own I don't really have that yeah, and I was just like no, I don't want that like I'm not here in the pond of piranhas Like please help me exactly So I wanted someone who is gonna be like like covering over me
At all times across situate who would never throw me to the wolves, you know um and so anyways To you got thrown to this wolf though Oh, so so character character across time situations and then the third thing that was important to me which I kind of already touched on
Is that he doesn't sin in his anger Um What do you mean by that just because I mean it's one thing to get like I kind of said this already It's one thing to get angry and to have feelings and to be hurt and it's another thing to act like stupid out of it Um just like it may be a bit too aggressive or yeah a bit too aggressive to grab me and to get physical to to To um because I mean we're gonna say things that we don't mean and we can say sorry for that and take some things back um
But there are some things that you can't take back, you know like for instance there's this one situation with a guy who um Like we were breaking up and And we we agreed with each other because we both had like public personalities that we were not going to
Um break up on Facebook in the middle of the day it was gonna be like late at night when no one was on so it wasn't like a thing You know that was really important to me and um I don't know what what happened I can't remember what happened but he got he got mad and so because he got mad
He ended our relationship status um at noon in the middle of the day So I started getting all these text messages from people everyone found out and I was just like you just sealed the deal Like if you ever wanted to get back with me like no You know and he was like well, I was just that's how I felt and I'm like oh my gosh absolutely not But it's a little vindictive and reactionary and that's like when you're not slow to anger, you know and totally and and if someone has anger issues
I mean a lot of that can be worked out through I think a lot of anger has to do with fear and Broke aness and go to therapy and a lot of that can be worked out But if it's a sign that that still needs to be worked on when you're trying to pick at someone like that vindictiveness right oh my gosh, it's
It's never gonna get better. It's I mean It's gonna only get worse when you're in close quarters with someone in the middle of a marriage when you're like next to them And sharing a bathroom and all of that, you know those things will just get that much worse And I love to that you said the character over time because I do think that Like in some ways like in different situations We have to see because a lot of people can put on a pretty good image for certain
Charm is deceptive. Yeah, and I know like because I'm not I can be that way or I've been that way in the past I've had to learn to to just own who I am But I used to like be able to just kind of wear a mask of like oh no, I'm great at all times, you know Mm-hmm, and a lot of people do that so you have to watch watch for that. So it's really good Yeah, and that's what's beautiful about dating is it kind of gives you some time for someone to actually reveal who they actually are
Mm-hmm. It is. It's an evaluation process. I'm like you're not like going to the doctor like me But you're kind of like you're Evaluating things and other persons evaluating you you got to know like whatever stand you're holding them to It's also very good to know you have to hold yourself to that same 100% yeah And a lot of times you're down. So if you're so good you expect you you are gonna go fly out the handle Be angry and you expect that their personal always be patient like okay
Right, it's a double standard. Yeah, I see that you want a 10 you gotta be a 10 So true if you want a gentleman you have to act like a lady yeah
Chris what about you? What are some qualities that yeah? Well, you know like some of it It's funny because Kristen had this like three-page list and she's like what's your list denied it really Have one prepared but but the more we end up start talking about it I like you know there are some really important things and and I think like a lot of guys we can focus a little bit more on the external qualities and characteristics, but I you know one of the ones I wrote down is she shares your beliefs
So you know even beyond spiritual beliefs. I think it's important to just
You just even share common goals. It doesn't necessarily it like when I'm talking beliefs to keep in mind We're in a very volatile political environment now something that I was able to see growing up for my parents is you know my dad Would grew up very conservative my mom grew up in a more of a liberal family So it's not like they were ever on the same page politically But they shared these common visions and goals that they both wanted to do community service and you know They had very similar
Family values and and things like that so you know and they keep in mind like they they weren't even like Like my dad named go to church when they met and you know my mom was going to church So it's it's kind of more or less when you can find these like similar things I think with Kristen I it was something that we probably even Maybe even discovered while we were dating is we just saw a little bit more of our calling But yes, we wanted to be speaking into the next generation
Yeah, and we wanted to talk about dating because it's it's a very found foundational important characteristic of all relationships and family and And so we you know made this decision even while we were dating early on I just said Kristen was already kind of doing the blogging thing and when I started good guy swag The first article that really came out was you know 10 ways to win a girl's heart Which is what became the book and I wanted to find out from her
What were the things that I did to win her over because I wanted to share this these findings with all the other guys out there And and that's kind of continued As we've been married to is that she you know now she has a book out and she has a women's group You know, I have a book from in and I have a men's group and we just kind of feel like this is where God has us for now It's cool when your missions and visions kind of aligned
And it doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same but like complimentary in some way shape or form like if you are really called To go overseas and live in Africa and serve in that way But the other person just really doesn't see their life ever going there That is something you have to really be attention to not to say like end all be all deabriker
But just that's potentially different missions in your life. Yeah, yeah It makes you be aware of your core values and what's what are your non-negotiables in your relationship?
And I think another thing that was that I ended up writing down And I think that this ended up being a very personal story for me is I just said she loves you unconditionally And that doesn't mean that you just get like a free pass for whatever But I remember there is one at one point in our relationship that I you know I felt like I was giving this like kind of perfect persona of who I was and so
Kristen I went out to dinner one night and I just had a dream. Yeah Oh, yeah, it was she had a dream too And so I felt like this is like God's cue to tell me like you know what you need to share fully your whole entire story all the ugliness and and the beauty and all and so we sat down to dinner one night We went to a really nice restaurant in Radondo Beach and I remember I just started like pouring out
I just literally just started pouring out everything like really just like the sheer ugliness of the things that had been in my life and she I remember she just she started bawling crying and I think it was because it was really difficult because she saw me as one
Thing and here I am showing her fully all of me and I remember we even went out to the the the the peer and I tried to put my arm around her and she kind of shoved my arm away and we went back and um I let her sleep in my room and I and and you know She was just like I just need some space and I I went into the other room and I thought you know this is
It's over and I said but you know at I had like a piece within me. I was actually praying I end up writing a song and I had this piece within me that God was just you know just saying like at least you know She got a full picture of who I was and I remember that next morning
um she just ended up like crying out for me calling my name and I remember that I just went in an Embraster and I was crying because I'd never Had really experienced unconditional love like that like for me the way that that Kristen loves me and the way that my wife loves me now is
Is in many respects mirroring how Jesus loves him. So that was a really beautiful lesson for me to learn Yeah, but Eve it she learned of your past and even though drawing at first like something in you was like no But I see the man he is today and I'm still gonna love him and choose him no matter what is the blemishes Yeah, the past where and I should expound a little bit on it because you know Kristen One of the things I've asked her on her first date is um
I said do you think more people would wait if them and wait for physical intimacy and sex If they knew God had his very best plan for them and she goes as a matter of fact I do believe in this because that's exactly the pledge that I made when I was in junior high and I intend
On saving myself for my husband And so I really just thought that I had to just sit down with her and just share with her all the ways that I fell short and that arena and And so you know, I I got it she just got to see that I wasn't Prince Charming in that moment and yet she still chose to love it
Right and there's such a beautiful picture in that that's what I love about the unconditional love because we're not looking with someone with the perfect like Uh pass like resume of a portcard pass because it's where they're at today too and where they're constantly striving is a Holy spirit in their life changing them are they constantly a tune are they working in striving have they gotten therapy if they have they sought healing Um, do they have accountability?
Are you alive? What are they doing to maintain the healing right because it is it's a maintaining process That's more important than like what you're because I relate to you Chris in those ways too Where and I've been in relationships where that's come up and it's been really tough to be like okay your past is not this and mine is and so what are you going to think of that?
Um and for us to just really be able to say okay, this is you know for it to have someone look at us and be like that's I'm gonna love you through that, you know, I see you for the person you are today in this moment and who got as created due to be And it was I know I completely understood the war that was within her because it was difficult and it probably wasn't what she had imagined But she she chose me over her imagination and ideals Well, I think part of it was that
Like I was just now finding out and even though it was probably early for you. I was just like Why are you just not telling me? You know because I was kind of like waiting for the other shoot a drop Like so to speak because Chris was so awesome and I kept being like Okay, what's what's like what's the problem here, you know And there's always a problem everyone So just be honest about that none of us are perfect I was just like whoa, they were always the issue that will drop. Yeah
Um, yeah, but it was so crazy. I mean it's definitely it. I think a holy spirit thing for sure Like because the next morning I just woke up and I like didn't I just didn't care Mm-hmm about what he what he has shared with me. I mean I cared of what he had been through um, but I was more compelled to like I Don't know to like cover it be nurturing then I wasn't turned off. Yeah, you know, yeah, that's beautiful
You guys this conversation loving you guys. You're so fun. So okay I asked everyone the same final question every single time and it's always if you could give one final negative dating advice What would it be just like something small? I feel like my answer is gonna be different than it's ever been but tonight I just feel like What I just feel like it's to just enjoy it to have fun Enjoy the process, enjoy dating, allow yourself to feel pretty, allow yourself to wear a flowy dress
Mm-hmm and actually like tap into your heart your little girl heart and like you were real desires and an honor that and own it on every date You know and if you're on a date and you feel less than Just leave yeah
There's like any part of you that's like ikki or grows uncomfortable. No, you don't need to stay That's fine And I would say I would say just you know embrace your story um embrace what God has done through your story um embrace you know what what you know embrace the thing that you you're most afraid to to show and you know like Like I said it like embrace your inner teasing is if if that's who you are um But but I would say yeah, yeah, just just own it um
Because I would say and I think it maybe I might have even shared this on on a previous episode Okay, but you know, I think with Kristen and I the places that we really came together and where we really Found the most intimacy we're not in the perfect places, but in the places where You know, we'd been hurt the most You guys are amazing. Thank you for being such a stellar couple. Thank you for sharing your hearts your story
This journey of pursuit. I hope everyone is feeling super encouraged to just go out there and try it y'all Let's just do it. Sorry if I seem really intense. I bet everyone's like this girl is crazy Okay, well
And so am I and that's where we're a perfect couple. All right But seriously you guys go out there and pursue this is it can be a lot of fun I love what you said like enjoy the process Own your story the scars of your past can be badges of victory for the future And I think that we can just enjoy this process and go into it with a little more perseverance too like we got a persevere a little bit
Yeah, you don't get to date forever once you're married. Well, I guess never mind. I should take that back You know you do get to date forever Yeah, you're a guy who pursues you Everybody we're gonna go on dates in the nursing home one day, baby Well, they're on the date tonight you know just at my house. I'm playing bingo I love it. All right. I'm gonna look at you guys go to your bingo. All right, love y'all so much. Love you two cake bye
Oh, man, what a fun time spent with christen christen today. It was such a treat to have them on So here's a deal as they said god unfolds our love story and writes it for our personality types He knows what's important to us and for our hearts Which is why friends pursue is important and why romance is also so important Also while we put this big expectation on what romance looks like sometimes I just want to remind you what it truly is at the end of the day is just being thoughtful
Knowing what is important to someone else's heart and wanting to speak to that area of their heart I hope y'all feel more encouraged pursue and seek romance in and through your dating relationships Go ahead and connect with chris online at at good guys swag on instagram And you could also connect with christen at at christen j Dalton on instagram Also, I want to encourage you to definitely pick up a copy of christen's new book the sparkle effect
And if your dude go check out chris's amazing books as well. They are so incredible I cannot be more thankful for your support of the hearted dating podcast I am blown away by your rankings reviews messages all of it If you want to be a part of our inner circle and support what we are doing
We encourage you to pledge any dollar amount that you want on our patreon page at patreon.com slash heart of dating Also, if you like this podcast, would you please consider giving us a review it helps us immensely and we cannot thank you more Until next time friends