What's new from Apple? There's the new iPhone 16 Pro built for Apple Intelligence. And it comes with the all-new camera control, giving you an easier way to quickly access your camera tools. The new Apple Watch Series 10 has our biggest display and our thinnest design ever. And this? It's the sound of active noise cancellation, now available on one of two new AirPods 4 models. So quiet. Check out all of the new products and new features at Apple.com. You can even buy yourself something new. See Apple.com for product availability updates. Apple Intelligence coming this fall.
I'm pursuing him. He's pursuing me. We're friends. We're serving each other. We're loving each other. We both have needs. We recognize each other's needs. And so to me, that's what looks and feels healthy.
Hey, we're in this season on Hot Topics. We've covered so many so far. And we're really excited about today because we're talking about soulmates with Deb with the one and only Deb. This is your first time getting to do an interview with Deb. Deb's no stranger to Heart of Dating. We love Deb. She is absolutely phenomenal. We got both of our babies right now. By the way, let's go ahead and spoil the ending guys 25 DMs. That's so easy. If we have 25 DMs,
Deb said that she is coming to our next event, whether it be the retreat conference, whatever it is. So before even listen to the episode. DM Deb, fill it up. Tell her we want you at a Heart of Dating event. Yeah. And we don't want 25 people to DM her. We want like 2500 just absolutely blow her up. Blow her up and give her a follow. She's an amazing new book coming up. By the way, Soulcare. And it's really, really impacting my life right now, to be honest with you. I really needed this.
Yeah, she said she doesn't believe that you guys can actually do it in DM. I was like, dude, you just unleash the community. I know. There they come. There they come. Well, if you aren't on YouTube, you guys should check it out because we have Eleanor. Eleanor and love you. But Eleanor is a little more exciting. I mean, as far as updates, K here, we sold out of K, B. H.O.D. Yeah.
Well, when this comes out, we might be right now. We are recording this and we are like over halfway there. There's like 70 tickets left. I know. There's not a lot. So it is. If it's still available, you should get on it. If not, heart of you, dot com forward slash camp H O D. Um, hey, we also want to tell you about Patreon. It's an awesome way to support this podcast. And we have matchmaking events every few months. We've had a really fun time at our matchmaking events. How many?
Yeah, I love it. And we have like private coaching in there. It's our only way that if you guys want private coaching, join our Patreon. So much going on in Patreon. Lastly, we have our next school of dating cohort coming up this October. It's going to be incredible. What do you love about school of dating? I mean, I just listened to it. I've said it so many times. People walk in. They walk out different.
Like that's just the best way to describe it. They walk in. They walk out. They have hope. They believe like that God has a plan. Their love story rise no longer the main plot of their life driving everything. It's just a subplot. Yes. Amen. So we love it. We hope you guys enjoy this episode with Deb. And again, please just do for me below her up. DM her. Hey, I got Alan or says DM her. Have a great episode. We love you guys. Bye.
Okay, guys. We have one of my friends on today's show. She is not a stranger to heart of dating. And it's always such a pleasure. And this is the first time I think me and JJ have interviewed her together. So welcome, Deb. And I'm glad to be with you guys. This is the first time we've all three of us hung out. So I'm excited. I'm nervous. You're excited. I'm nervous. I mean, you're a legend in the heart of dating community.
And so I've only heard rumors and whispers and talks about how amazing you are. So this is a big deal for me. JJ, I should have interviewed you before the wedding. I would have been hilarious. I'm a little late to the game, but you know what? It's all right. Okay, to give the Deb's name of approval, well, it's too late now, but can we foreshadow what's coming down the pipe? Oh, yeah, that we're going to also be going on Deb's podcast. Yeah.
We were just talking about that. So you guys will have to check out when we're on Deb's podcast later this year, which will be that'll be revealing. That'll be my chance to really dig in an on air counseling session, kind of get to know the dynamics here. And you know, just just dig in a little bit. What do you think, JJ? I love it. I mean, hey, nothing is off limits.
We're perfect, though. So nothing's going to come out. But like this conversation will be totally boring because we have no issues at all. At least I'm lying. We've never had any marital issues. We've never had to go to a counselor. Oh, yeah, the first year of marriage is a breeze, right? Yeah, especially when you move in together into a six and a square foot apartment and start working together.
And it's just, yeah, and her baby and her baby in there within the first year. So just together 24 seven. Yeah, no issues, but arise at all. Nope, we perfect. But anyway, that's not what today's about today. We're interviewing you. And I'm so excited. This is, I think you're third time, if not fourth on the podcast, you're definitely no stranger. Like I said. And so you are so talented in so many ways. And of course you're an amazing counselor.
You have a heart for relationships. You do have such a heart for singles. And I'm so excited about your upcoming new book. You have so many phenomenal books for people and relationships, marriage, and people who are dating and single. So before we jump in, would you tell everyone a little bit about soul care, your upcoming book?
Soul care was God's gift to me. It's, you know, I've written so many books and the writing process is always such a fun, faith filling experience because it's just you and God and a keyboard. And it's always been such a just incredible experience to just sit and allow God to pour into me. But this book specifically just felt like a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And I told you this, but I wrote it in 16 and a half days have to add the half.
And I don't say that to brag. I say that to just show you that I truly feel like it was God's gift to me. And I spent a lot of time marinating in this message for the year prior. And just looking at scripture through the life of Jesus and specifically how he cared for his soul. Because even Jesus had human capacity that he honored like he was in he was fully God yet fully man. And in order to be able to pour out in the way that he needed to pour out, he had to stay filled.
And how much more for us as human beings who are fully human beings to recognize the importance of filling up as we do what God has called us to do. So, soul care is six life giving rhythms that I believe Jesus practiced during his time on earth.
And how we need to do the same in our own life. So kind of a way to you know, it's not self care because self care is the superficial like let me go get him any petty and a and take a bath and not that those things are not good. Those things are important. But they're not a permanent lasting filling. And so that's what this book is about is just learning to get filled and stay filled.
And I love it. Now one quick question before we jump in. Do you feel like it's perfectly time for where you're at in your life right now or do you kind of wish you would have had this book when you're single, when you're dating early years in your marriage like where do you feel like you really wish you would have had this kind of book in your life.
I could have learned these things before I became a counselor, you know, like it's it's it's great party or education is learning how to be a healthy person right so that you can help other people get healthy. But I remember even in graduate school going through a season of what I probably didn't know how to pinpoint it at the time depression and burnout and all kinds of things because I too much on my plate doing too much and didn't really have a
idea of the idea of sole care wasn't in my culture. It wasn't in the way that I learned and the way that I lived my life I come from a ministry family and life was all about output output service service. That's it like you don't stop to think okay, how do I feel what do I need how full of my like do I need to set boundaries. In fact growing up in my culture. I come from Middle Eastern background they don't even have a word for boundaries.
So you know it's just the servant oriented life which matches with scripture when you just look at it from the surface, but when you really dig deep it's service that comes with out pouring that's preceded by pouring in so that you have something to pour out right. And so I wish I would have learned this early in my life, but I'm just so grateful to have learn these things before children because now that I have four kids it's so much more output than ever before.
Yeah, it's counseling like think of all of us who are in the caregiving world and we're pouring out in some way yeah we're the ones that have to be extra intentional about this. Oh for sure. Pastors also and people in like ministry absolutely so I love it and we're going to continue to tap into it as I've read through the book I'm like this is what I need in this season so much so I'm personally so grateful for this book.
And I can't wait for our people to read it it is so powerful and really really helpful I feel like in singleness and so speaking of the word soul and soul care one of the hot takes I want to address with you today as we dive then deeper into soul care is the word soulmate okay so you know a lot of people will say I'm looking for my soulmate I'm looking for my soulmate it's such an interesting word that I feel like gets tossed around all of the time and you
almost see it in these movies like you see it all the time in movies in in these dramas that are crafted before us like I'm looking for that one perfect person my soulmate you see it in Jerry McGuire the ever famous line you complete me right and so there's just a lot of press or a lot of what we see from society tells us that's what you're supposed to be looking for and so I'm curious from
from your unique perspective as a counselor and I know you counsel single people you must have had people come to you at some point or another and say I'm looking for my soul mate I'm curious what you do in those scenarios and if you believe in the idea of soulmates yeah so first of all I don't like the term soulmate in any way shape or form I feel like it's a faux idea of love like this this idea that somebody and as most people know it's rooted in Greek mythology some people don't know
the rules two souls got separated and then they found each other again is the kind of the brief version of the story and it's like it almost makes it seem like you aren't complete standing alone yeah and to me that's a really dangerous mindset and how it plays out then is because I don't feel complete standing alone then I have to find a way to get complete healthy counseling knows that to get complete you have to do the work standing alone like imagine to have filled cups
and I'm half filled and you're half filled and we're both like we're both half filled so what's the next best step coming together so that we can fill each other up and it feels good and now we're full until we realize as life goes on we're actually still to have filled people desperately trying to get filled up with the other person
and being disappointed and disillusioned and jaded when our expectations aren't being met because I'm feeling empty and you're feeling empty and guess what this isn't working and so I think the idea of soul care allows that to play out in an unhealthy way when really a healthy relationship is I'm filled to the brim and you're filled to the brim and our love comes out of the overflow what each of us can give out of the overflow of what we have
and I think that applies in marriage too like you guys know when you're feeling empty that's when marriage gets rocky it's like I'm feeling empty and I need you to do this for me and you're not doing it the way I need it done and now there's tension and I'm seeing way too much like body language here K like this must have just happened last night guys this is definitely something that's a main theme for her
we just do so much together that it's hard to like we have to find the balance and that which I'm sure we'll talk about on your podcast this idea though Deb you might have heard from Tim Keller he calls it love economics right and just think about the economics of
those two half glasses both are expecting to be filled so you think to become one all right let's make one mega last and we fill it but that's first of all not how it's not how it works and then two think about those cups now you put a couple of weeks in the bottom of them
and then they're both imagining that the other person is solely there to fulfill them and that's what Tim Keller says a love economics here do not work like you have a finite amount and unless you're going somewhere a super he always call it a supernatural source a divine source that's outside of any person your cup is never going to be overflowing or filling and you're always going to be searching for someone else to fill your cup which at that point
it's not really even a relationship right if I'm just constantly looking for someone to fill up my cup that's more like that it's almost like yeah the other person's a slave to the relationship in your needs right and that's what I would put in the category of codependence where I need you to fill me up and maybe on the flip side of that is I need to fill you up because it makes me feel valuable
valuable to have a job to do to fill you up and that makes me feel full and masks the fact that I'm not really full so it's this back and forth dynamic of two half filled at best people who are just not able to find fulfillment and satisfaction no matter how good the marriage is so it's codependency both I'm depending on you to fulfill me or I'm depending on you to fulfill you and feel good about myself is that either or either or it would be the the codependent relationship
because it needs one of each it's also like different and different seasons sometimes that flip flops but usually it's like the fact that we are looking I'm looking to receive some sort of value from you whether it's because I need you or whether it's because I need to be needed by you now can we so we've talked a lot about marriage and like which is nice I think it's always helpful to have lessons of what
is coming but how does codependency maybe play out in singleness and dating that does a play out on friendships like or could a people could a people could a pen it in friendships and then how does that maybe look in dating in scenarios that you've seen with clients yeah it you know often we trace
this stuff back to childhood it's like where in your life first of all what what happened to kind of deplete your bucket and make you feel half filled you know what what situations what trauma what labels were put on you to kind of make you feel like you're lacking like you're not good enough like you're missing something let's get to some of those roots of your role and where it began you know sometimes I work with people who are in dating relationships where they're constantly engaging
with people who are just chaotic who are unhealthy who are toxic who are you know whatever it is and a lot of times when you trace it back you you do find different patterns for example one of the patterns could be somebody who comes from a household where there is a lot of chaos and that person becomes the stabilizer of the home they have to kind of fix the chaos and be that person that that kind of is the go-between the the peacemaker and and when you grow up in a family where you're
the fixer it's easy to carry that role into adulthood and now you're dating and there's mr. chaos and it's like oh okay I have I can do that because I am a fixer and I know how to fix things and that's kind of been my role not that you say that consciously but the subconscious part of you is
drawn to chaos because you've spent so much of your childhood fixing and finding value in that is it drawing to it and also I'm also just really familiar with this dynamic some comfortable in it and I'm like I can I can be this guy with this kind of girl or vice versa I can be this kind of role
because I've I've played it so well in the past I would say it's both in that we're drawn to what's familiar over what's healthy oftentimes in life we're just drawn to what's familiar and whether or not we even realize it's familiar so again like why people become codependent is there's so many
reasons it's not just one reason but we can always trace it back and start unpacking some of the dynamics from your early days and what you learned about relationships and you're going to find something there that tweaked the template into codependent unhealthy relationships absolutely that
was such a bar that was that's definitely going on Instagram oh it was so good we're drawn to what's familiar not always what's healthy yeah I mean we didn't episode earlier this season based on a post that I posted about that did go viral on Instagram called date the boring guy because and
people hated it on some people hated on Instagram because they're like oh my gosh you're calling your spouse boring and I was like no I'm not calling him boring what I'm saying is that the beginning of dating him it was consistent and it was non chaotic and that felt boring to my
system because my system was so used to chaos and so in other words your system was jacked up exactly the hundred percent and so I'm coming from a child which I knew consciously so thankfully I done a lot of work to of awareness and healing of that but now it's trying it's part of actualizing
okay this is still my system is saying oh this is it kind of feels like a little bit boring it's consistent oh but this is good like I know that this is good and so I'm actualizing what I know is to is good for myself instead of going back into the same patterns before a performance
proving myself of whatever it was to get that non-committal emotionally unavailable guy to want me like me choose me whatever it was yeah because stable feels boring when you have engaged in the the ups and downs of a chaotic relationship in the same way that when my eight-year-old who has
a sweet tooth and we have to really work on his sweet tooth like would rather have candy over fruit even though fruit is so much healthier and so much better but his taste buds are so jacked up after eating sweets that the the pureness the unadulterated goodness nutritious fruit is like not
appealing because it's like I'd rather have sugar and I think it's a similar vibe with our internal world when we have been conditioned to chaos and it's like excitement and our our emotional taste buds are like I like how that tastes way better versus the good stuff and we all know
like the unhealthy stuff can only take you so far until it makes you sick like and it even consciously sometimes we know it's bad for us you know like we know candy is not good for us we know milkshakes are not good for us man I have a huge sweet tooth so I'm with your eight-year-old
on pre-informed tomahead the frozen green grapes at night yes like alternative and it's it's not the same stuff that's not the good stuff I know I know but your your body starting to adjust to help it does help though yeah or I think about like I don't know like Kate's a Disney adult which I
know pray for her but it's kind of like going on like the craziest Disney or six flags ride like I wouldn't roller coaster and it just jacks you up and it's drilling it's fine for so you go on the little mermaid after that and you're like this is so born easy river you know and like one is great for your soul and one is not but I can tell you say all that's addictive and and you know if you're just like an easy-going ride you're like all right is there actually a twist is there
turn like that's that panicking is this really real is this really good for me this podcast is sponsored by better health question for you guys what are yourself care non-negotiables what are those things that you absolutely have to do for yourself is it that you never skip a day at the gym you got
that infrared sauna that you always go to twice a week maybe it's that specific cup of coffee in the morning I know that's one for me or maybe is it therapy I know for me therapy has been such a priority in my life and it's something that even when I'm so crazy busy I know that I need
to fit therapy in because it is just that important to my soul therapy has been super helpful and to diving into things in my past so some of the trauma that has existed for my childhood that then actually still shows up today in triggers and when I was dating you guys let me tell you
I booked more therapy sessions with my therapist when I was dating than any other time in my life because just so much came up for me in various dating experiences I would book a thing with my therapist and she'd be like you're dating someone else aren't you and I'd be like yes I may need help I need to process this feeling this emotion this trigger that I am going through so if you are to somebody who constantly struggles in relationships or in dating if you are questioning yourself and
says and leave you have some issues with anxiety I want to encourage you maybe it's specifically time to give better help a try I love better help because it's entirely online and it's designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your busy schedule all you have to do is fill out a brief
questionnaire and then from there you get matched to a licensed therapist and you can even switch therapists at any time for no additional charge I encourage you that if you are having some issues in your dating life or in your relationship give better help a try you can visit betterhelp.com
slash hod today to get 10% off your first month that's better help help.com slash hod to get 10% off your first month my dad works in B2B marketing he came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend
my friends still laughing me to this day not everyone gets B2B but with linkedin you'll be able to reach people who do get a hundred dollar credit on your next ad campaign go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit that's linkedin.com slash results terms and conditions apply linked
in the place to be to be so I have a question to ask we're just continuing to specify what this looks like in dating because last night we had we were doing a workshop and somebody else was leading it but we were listening into the Q&A and you know I think one issue we see so often a lot
of times with women doesn't have to be just women but a lot of times with women is I need this from a guy I need this I need this I need this I need him to be this I need him to be this I need this I need this I need this like lots of almost neediness and so I'm so curious and I feel like
that still goes into like this idea of I'm looking for somebody to complete all of my needs and obviously it is okay to have some needs for a relationship but I'm wondering what the balance is because a lot of times I do see that and I was a person I'm like I have all these different needs and I'm going to look to make sure that you're doing all these things otherwise I don't want
to be with you. Yeah we've unfortunately swung to the extremes of the pendulum on this like I if you think about when I was growing up and all of these Christian literature came out that made me feel like I am the princess and I need to be pursued as though I'm a queen and here's my list of
what I want in a man and I'm not going to settle unless he's all of these things and he has to pursue me relentlessly and it kind of sets you up for a one-sided relationship where he is just serving you hand and foot and feeding you grapes and that's when it's like okay this is
right you know that's what that's what the culture kind of portrayed to Christian women years ago like he's supposed to pursue I remember reading a book that said he he's supposed to pay for everything every single thing during dating and to be honest it's like this isn't a servant
relationship this is a mutual team dynamic and that honestly set me up for unrealistic expectations and what a relationship looks like and completely deleted my role in it you know and it took me a while to kind of realize first of all this is unrealistic
and secondly my husband to be has needs he's human he wants to be pursued as well like we both have these desires inside of us so the but then the pendulum to that is the other side where we focus so much on them we don't have needs our our job is to make them happy right like I don't have
needs whatever he wants and so we go to these extreme sides and and maybe on the this side of the coin we we settle for things that aren't good for us it's like well this is as good as it's going to get maybe you're not the queen anymore but now you think there's nothing good out there so
this is as good as it's going to get and I've found that nothing good comes from living in the extreme like it's all about balance knowing who I am thinking of that scale of the relationship where I want it to be balanced it's a give and take I'm pursuing him he's pursuing me we're friends
we're serving each other we're loving each other we we both have needs we recognize each other's needs and so to me that's what looks and feels healthy and it's translated into marriage where john and i are partners he like we are literally partners teammates best friends co-leaders of the
plane like we are doing this together in every sense of the word with ministry with kids with our schedules and it just feels good it feels right it feels like this is how it should be but I'll tell you it took a while to really learn that with all the different messages that you get okay so
I have to camp out here because that was so good I really don't hear it talks about often I would probably call it like princess philosophy or princess theology when it comes to like yeah totally and so was that born out of the hey we're post patriarchal like feminist movement we're not these
home makers who could just cater to every single need I'm not going to be in the kitchen I am actually the one who deserves to be you know prioritized and served would you say that's kind of where it was born and came from and then we're kind of in a place now where it's like obviously it's not
sustainable either right it's the same thing just backwards you know it's funny I think it was born even before that like when I think about you know 25 years ago when I was reading this stuff I think it was more of just the chivalrous movement right like chivalry like women
men are supposed to open your doors and men are supposed to do all these things for you well of course being a servant-hearted man is a beautiful thing but there was no emphasis on like the mutuality of it I remember even having a counseling session with someone
who he was an amazing guy but he wasn't opening her corridor and that was like such a big deal because she had learned like he has to open your corridor and it's like we have swapped out these superficial chivalrous things for what really matters which is character integrity honesty
these a servant heart like it's not just these superficial things a man can pay for your meal and be a straight up jerk in other ways a man can open your door and then go home and look up porn right like that is not the standard of what makes someone healthy that's not the standard
of a mutual relationship it's so much deeper than some of the superficial things that we make it about and then people get confused you know now in the dating process look because I'm just a big believer of this like our golden rule to just make dating so easy as this leave the other person
better than you found them and that's both parties looking to say now what I can get out of this not how I can fit you as a puzzle piece of my life how can I legitimately serve you honor you encourage you and I really think we have a good idea of what that could look like as a guy
but as a girl what could that also look like as far as talking about that pendulum swinging back and forth like what would that dead center you know some examples that that look like from a female perspective you mean with a female and how she can yes offer something in a relationship yes
especially dating right dating in relationship where you're not married right so it's a little bit more complicated well my formula is give and receive I think that's the healthiest dynamic to look for in dating I think sometimes we either give give give give give give or we're in
a pattern of receive receive receive receive receive and either of those start to kind of tip the scale in an unhealthy direction so it doesn't matter if you're a male or female what you're looking for in the dynamic is given receive I send you a text I want you to send me a text I initiate a
meeting let's go out for coffee I would like you to initiate something as well I serve you in a certain way I would like to see that reciprocated because you want to see evidence of reciprocity mutuality like we're both being intentional we're both investing and if you see that back and forth
in dating you're often going to see that back and forth continue in marriage and beyond you know so so you're looking for that pattern of give and take um you know as a woman think about what does it look like to show that that give and take so if you get something a really great text what does it look like if you're interested in that person to be intentional about you know what I'm in a craft a really kind text and send it tomorrow morning I'm an initiate our next gathering I'm going to offer
to pay for something he might say no I got it but I'm still going to offer because I want to have a generous spirit too and I want to show him that I want to serve him just like he's serving me and and just kind of think through what mutuality looks like it's so yeah I love this because I mean
well I love and and you can correct me if you think differently on this but and I feel like in the very beginning of dating I am about the man asking the woman on a date and planning those first initial dates um but I think through time and this is what we always share with people like
it's it's not an always that the guy is paying and always planning the dates like once Jay Jay and I got past a few months of talking um and going on some more casual dates it went to okay I'm planning dates and then he plans the next day it went to I'm paying for half the dates he's paying for half the dates um and it was way more mutual because once you especially get into relationship and it's like a serious commitment I mean you know eventually if in marriage none of that stuff it's
like you're begging to count us exactly exactly and so and it doesn't have to it's not even that we're saying tip for tap like I text you you text me it might look different like let's just say he buys the groceries and you're like hey I'm I'm really good at making a meal like let me do this you know or you know there's things that you each have that you're bringing to the table but the key is given receive like are they able to give and are they able to receive yeah amen and I think uh you
just hit the nail on the head because I think when we keep score and you're like well I did this are you giving me tat right I and we're always looking for what we're giving that's not truly giving them right truly giving my favorite example of giving is if you're in a coffee shop and there's
someone behind you and he paid for their coffee and he's about you're not looking for them to come chase you out on the sidewalk and say thank you so much right you generously gave without any expectation in the same way yeah in relationship we give with maybe a hope like if we live in reality
I think we always kind of hope that there's a giving back like we receive something but it's not the expectation nor the role thumb now I have a question um I'm around you know singles quite a bit and especially on the post heartbreak you find that really raw moment of maybe I don't believe in
soulmates maybe I don't believe in someone to complete me but something does come to the surface where it's just like I'm just so sick and tired of being single and not working out like I don't know if my heart can take another breakup I just need somebody like I just want to get married
and would you say like that's a really good indicator that it's maybe not actually the person that they're looking for that they need but maybe soul care or soul maintenance and is that like a really really great opportunity in that pain to discover you know something new about
themselves yeah you do see that we see a lot of older singles that are like I just I can't do this anymore I just need someone I need someone you know and I get loneliness is rampant and it's very very difficult but um especially for our older singles but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this
Deb yeah I see a lot too I think I'm thinking of a few of my clients right now in particular and it's a twofold process when someone comes into my office and they're like I am struggling I am so lonely I feel like I just need someone I want to get married right now first of all I think there is
something that needs to be acknowledged and that is the grief and loss of the fact that you have this desire that hasn't come into fruition you know it's like this deep well that's been dug in the foundation of your life it's a it's a whole and it hurts it really does it hurts to come
home at the end of a long day with so many things to share and not have a person to share it with there is deep and real pain there that has to be acknowledged and validated and grieved but then the next question is what do we do with that whole we can cover that whole up with superficial
things like take a blanket just cover that whole up pretend it's not there and maybe I even cover the whole with denial and just pretend it doesn't really hurt that bad but when you just cover that whole superficially what happens is you just keep falling in that pit because you forget it's there
and then you're back in it again and again and again and again and so the best way to handle the pain of loneliness is to acknowledge it and respond to it God has given you a signal and that signal is going off right now and it's the signal of loneliness and the only antidote for loneliness is
connection yeah so instead of ignoring my loneliness or feeling like I'm not spiritual enough because I feel lonely I will respond to the loneliness by making room in my life being intentional to find healthy connection healthy connection with God healthy connection with self and
healthy connection with others and so when I feel loneliness like okay that's a signal I got to do something about it I need to respond by connecting to God self and others just like I respond to my hunger I'm hungry what do I do is you know what what can I eat what's healthy what's what's
good for me you have to respond to loneliness in the same way because it's a signal so it's just how do I how do I do that well you can respond by connecting to God of course we could come up with a list of what that could look like by connecting to others and community and what that could look like
by connecting to self and being in tune with who I am and what I need and what's going on underneath the surface of my life hence that's where something like soul care would come into practice but the key is don't just ignore it respond and start filling that hole in healthy ways
in your book you have six different rhythms and I know one of the rhythms is connect like literally that's like one of the chapters right and so and in that chapter you say be a good friend have a good friend the rhythm of friendship or maybe that's the subtitle the chapter um you know
it's interesting about as we talk about the concept of soulmate is and you know jg and i for better or worse sometimes watch some dating reality shows mainly because we find it fascinating psychologically to see why people choose other people what they're drawn in on and a lot of these
people are not going to necessarily Christians sometimes they claim to be but um maybe they're I can't judge but it's it doesn't necessarily differ sometimes between what a Christian and non-Christian is sometimes looking for and something that we found and even had to wrestle with in the beginning
of our marriage was you know not looking to your your spouse your partner for the source of all of your entertainment all of your connection um but rather balancing that with friendships do you want to give you have a smiling or face if you want to give a while trying to uh are you just
thinking on behalf of Kate or I don't know what do you do I mean I could see both in some ways yeah um but well what and the thing about that is it doesn't start once you're married right it's like oh now I'm married let's make some good friends like the pattern of having healthy connections
has to start before marriage totally so that you're not bringing all of your needs and expectations and just planting them on this one person I feel bad if that's that to be that one person absolutely I can't do all that for you oh it's impossible but it's so funny you go ahead
I was just gonna say because one thing I see just in this concept of soulmates is a lot of people are so looking for compatibility in regards to all these little super almost I would call superficial things like do we like the same kind of music do we like to do the same kind of activities
do we is our lifestyle exactly the same like blah blah blah blah blah blah do we love do we both love going to the gym like it's very it gets very like particular and they're like oh this person doesn't go to the gym as much as me not gonna work out you know we have to this person if I'm
gonna have be with them they have to fit into my life perfectly and therefore that's the only kind of person that's gonna be my quote soulmate if they love going to the gym if they love the same kind of movies so we can both be entertained the same kind of way if they you know love sports the
way I love sports then that's my kind of soulmate you know because we have the same kind of things in common but it's very superficial it's based on all these things that people are calling compatibility that are often based in just you know lifestyle preferences I would say so I'm curious
to hear what you think about that yeah I think there are majors and minors in relationships and we do often get them confused what's major what's minor what's important what's not important um wants versus needs and and you know like I said earlier okay maybe it's the superficial like oh he closes my door but is he living an honest life of integrity is he is he does he show intentionality in the relationship okay maybe you like the same movies but do you have a similar faith like the
superficial things come in time when the deeper more significant things are soed into the relationship the superficial things come in time like there's so many superficial things that John and I have slowly merged together over the years over 17 years we like so many things like things like
for example I hated sushi and he loved it I I don't like sushi so I was with you back in the day and 17 years later I'm like oh my gosh it's my favorite food but oh there's hope his personality you know it like with time and consistency and living together so many of those things merged together and then you start developing new things together yeah yeah absolutely so it's not as significant as what's going on with the majors I love that because it's kind of like that essence of I mean we don't
have a range marriages but it's like man if you owe two godly people who are who are exactly who they say they are right and have great relationships and community around them are mostly spiritually healthy right they're emotionally healthy they're spiritually healthy they can totally figure it out right they can totally figure it out especially with the growth and the new things now my quick question though is as you kind of talk about connecting and being a good friend and having a good friend
would you say I mean I I feel like you're gonna show up exactly a marriage exactly how you're showing up in friendships today so if you have a hard time being honest or pulling a friend aside and saying hey I have a bit of a issue or a challenge with you that I'd like to work out in a healthy way
you're gonna do that a marriage I think about like it with my roommates in my what like 15 years of having roommates I had one one that was really challenging and I actually think he was the best opportunity for me to grow mature as a husband right and in my future relationship because we were
so different he would then know me like four dollars and 17 cents for the garbage bags that he bought for the house he would be super particular about the bathroom and like these little things that just drove me nuts and instead of like using that as the best opportunity for me to grow I handled it
passively I complained about it and I'm like man fast forward one year later and I was doing the exact same thing in my marriage with someone who's very sending you a Venmo for just a particular high-pay stuff yeah it's funny marriage offers you the opportunity for growth and healing
and to just to me it's like an invitation to get better and to get more whole and to get more colorful and like all of the areas that that you struggled in when they get exposed it's like okay what am I gonna do about it do I blame my my spouse for exposing them or do I take ownership
and start to heal them and it's the same thing before marriage in relationships when things get painful it's like am I gonna use this as an opportunity to take ownership and heal and get better or am I just getting an aura and blame it on the other person and move on to the next roommate you know
not that there's never a time to move on but moving on without taking some sort of ownership and healing and seeing my role you know that's such an important piece to any healthier relationship yeah I say that a lot even being in an abusive relationship or more than one abusive relationship
in the past you know I'm not sitting here necessarily blaming myself and shaming myself but I do think there's a a right place to reflect and say what led me to that place in my life what led me to accept that kind of treatment like what belief systems were already in place about myself
that when this guy came in and started saying these things about me well if I had those beliefs already it was much easier to believe the things that he was saying like because myself confidence and some things I believed about myself was already so negative and so I had to look in hindsight
and say okay I mean what he did was horrible and there are things to deeply learn about myself and heal from because there are patterns that led me to this place I want to touch quickly as we start wrapping up here on anxiety because singles are incredibly there's a lot of anxiety you know
we talk about attachment styles and obviously anxious attachment is an attachment style but you don't have to be anxious attachment to have anxiety in dating I think that's like kind of a myth people believe like if you lean more avoidant or more ambivalent to organize oh you just you don't
really have anxiety no that's not necessarily true and so as a counselor you must see anxiety all the time and I think your book so care so perfect for anybody which is a lot of people that struggle with anxiety but what do you see and why you believe anxieties on the rise maybe especially
in dating you know think of it this way anxiety is an alarm system you know God it's just like loneliness God gives you emotions good and bad to get your attention pay attention do something about this change something alter something heal something that's what these emotions are for
their their signals that tell us we need to do something differently and I think with anxiety oftentimes is and negative emotions in general we want to ignore them we want them to go away as fast as possible rather than tune in one of the six rhythms of soul care that I believe Jesus
practiced and was really good at rhythm number six is tune in tune in to what your body is telling you tune into what you're feeling inside tune in to the emotions that are coming up and then respond to them in healthy ways and what does that look like because if you don't these feelings the
the pressure just builds and they eventually find the point of least resistance when you're not paying attention and they burst into the scene of your life in the worst time in the worst way because you just kept stuffing and ignoring and quick fixing yeah rather than responding and doing
something about it so good have you seen inside out to the movie I have it's funny because I was the I preached at fresh life church you know the Johnny Lesca this Sunday right after inside I had come out and I was joking because I was supposed to be preaching about emotional health
and I was like forget it I'm not preaching let's just play inside out on something more like the substitute teacher who rolls in the TV though I we went yeah exactly we took the kids and there's a lot of really good insight from learning about our emotions oh it's what was your
favorite one yeah what was your favorite part and that's like you're like man I wish displayed in that movie yeah you're not going to believe this but my favorite part I talk a lot about toxic optimism hmm and how Christians have a tendency to just like paint the brush stroke of optimism
over their life and not actually tune into the hard feelings yes um which I feel you seen the first one a lot too yeah exactly so I liked how joy and anxiety kind of took a back seat and they all kind of learned to work together to kind of complete the picture because sometimes
it's like oh it's fine yes I feel anxiety but God is good and instead of responding what does this mean what do I need to do what is this telling you what do I need to heal so that probably was my favorite part when they both took a back seat and everybody kind of that came and and filled
in because you know as you say that I'm like you're totally right I just have a hard time imagining Jesus in the way he walked and talked and spoke as that picture of like oh well this didn't really work out the way we wanted to but God is a plan and will and it's going to be okay
like sugar code in fact in fact the Bible says he was a man of many sorrows like he knew feelings for good and and for difficult and he saw them all as opportunities to connect with God whether they were good or difficult you know and that's imagine if we could tune in
and practice soul care on that level and I'll I'll dive into that of course and soul care but it's just a really healthy rhythm so exciting Jeff it's so good Jeff Vanderstale do you know him he's a he runs the ministry out of Seattle he'd love him he took over after marked risk
school and his church in Seattle as we've passed her yeah but he does coaching for men's health men's emotional health and spiritual formation and he and I were talking and we I just found out that the Bible uses 38 different descriptive words to describe Jesus as emotions at different
39 but yes so thank you and but to you I was talking with him I'm like it's so funny because the most spiritually mature believers I know I feel like are the most emotionally connected believers to Jesus and their spirit I know yeah I agree with that and and tune in I spend some time
unpacking the different emotions of Jesus and yeah what he did in response to each emotion right because it's not the emotion that's bad or good it's the response totally to that emotion like hunger it's like yeah that's Snickers bar and that Ben and Jerry's ice cream right now is calling my name
right what am I gonna fill up mean your eight-year-old yeah so the same you and as he got you and as he needed to eat some salads together hi what are you trying to say the six rhythms I have them their nourished rest connect protect saver and tune in those are the six that you talk about
right and sweet saver was my absolute favorite there's three chapters in that section and that was the one that just spoke to my heart so much wow I'm gonna saver my 18 holes on the golf course tomorrow no I love it well dad this has been so fun I know we bounced around a lot but from talking to
soulmates to soul care I think and an anxiety inside out all the things in between we covered so much ground I'm just so grateful for you I'm grateful for your voice I'm grateful for your writing you have so many incredible books what would you say outside of soul care which they need to get is
like the singles favorite books that they buy from you is it love in every season is it I would say true love dates my first book about yeah dating inward outward and upward and how to get healthy and attract healthy essentially and you know even just kind of wrapping this up today
I'm starting with that analogy of the cups that I would ask what are you feeling today like how full does your cup feel standing alone right now that's a really good assessment I when I when I when I start soul care that's the question I ask if I were to ask you how full is your cup today
how filled do you feel on the scale of zero is I'm totally depleted to 10 I feel filled up where you at because that's a really good marker of what I need to do next and what does it look like to take those next steps to actually start filling up in healthy ways I'm literally going to
look at these six categories and break it down for myself because I'm almost done reading your the book and I'm like I'm gonna do that maybe I'll do that this weekend yeah do it to prep you know for our car car yeah I'm actually a free quiz that you can take okay to kind of tell
you which of the six areas you're feeling most like oh okay I'm gonna take it in so make sure send me that link okay well the second question I want people to ask themselves after that is do you love Deb because if so you need a messenger saying that you absolutely need to do
something with hearted dating whether be at a conference if you really love Deb and you want her people already tell me it all the time all right if I get more than 25 DMs I'll do it oh okay that is so oh it takes the 25 okay all right guys we have we have some women and men who are
all up in the DMs okay well Devon I've been friends now for years and we still have never met in person it's horrible but I feel like I know you know it doesn't feel like a real fact no but you know Jamal Miller oh I'm voice memos and text you know it was the same with Jamal Miller we've
been friends for years and we met for it actually the first time this last year but I'll tell you it felt like we had known each other even in person I was like because I've seen him you know just not in the flash and I was like it feels like just totally natural okay fine we'll do a huge
spend the night party and stay up on my it sounds good Jamal party well thank you Deb everyone check out Deb if you're not already following her go get silcaire pre-orderate take the quiz man I'm gonna do the quiz too and thank you Deb so much for being with us today I was
so happy guys the heart of dating podcast is created by Kate and JJ Tomlin shout out to our epic audio and video editor Scott Carro we have an amazing heart of dating team who helps bring the show to each week I want to shout out Kelsey Napier our heart of dating digital marketing coordinator
and Elena Gibson our brand and community manager we couldn't do it without them now if you guys have never ranked us or reviewed us on iTunes or Spotify would you consider doing that it would mean so much because our podcast can get more discovered and more people can learn how to better date as Christians don't we all want that we launch our podcasts each and every week on Wednesdays so we'll see you next week