I would never take it back, you guys. It has changed not only like my dating life, but it's changed my entire life the way that I live. That I live life and I actually don't think it's exhausting. I think it's so much fun. I have a blast with it. And I've dated a lot. So yeah, you can ask me any question and I can tell you that it's worth it. And it's Kate and Eleanor. And you're listening to the Heart of Dating podcast. This is so amazing. The baby is on the podcast.
Yeah, she's napping right now, so we'll see how long that lasts. We have her in the studio, so another reason you should watch YouTube because you will see all of this happening on YouTube and get to see Little Baby Girl. Wait, I'm curious. Have you started using YouTube yet to listen to podcasts or are you still not there? No, I am now. Wait, really? Because we do it. I actually enjoy watching podcasts better on YouTube now. Why is that?
Well, because it's fun to see people's expression. You get to like, I don't know, like and you still can just listen to it in the background. If you're not listening, if you don't want to watch it, but I like to pop on and watch the expression because it's almost like watching a show versus just listening to something. So that is a great segue to say come over to YouTube and check us out, subscribe to the channel.
If you're watching this on YouTube right now, hello to our YouTube people who want to encourage you to subscribe. I sound like such a YouTuber right now. I know you really do, but you have it down. But it's also like we want to keep making more content even outside of the podcast. Like who knows? Maybe we'll start making other fun videos. Well, be honest. Have you been practicing your YouTube pitch in the mirror? Like that sounded that sounded really good. Like and subscribe. Yeah, exactly.
I am getting a profession being I'm becoming a professional YouTuber. What can I say? And speaking of YouTube, don't we have like some promises to fulfill on YouTube? Yes. Like getting ears pierced. Yeah, and like a lip tattoo and stuff. No, you already got a tattoo. No, but I didn't get a lip tattoo. I can. No, you also have to go up to strangers and hug them and tell them you love them. Okay, so I have to get my ears pierced. Well, no, no, I have to get my ears pierced.
No, no, no, no, no, it's both of us. I was going to get gauges. Oh, my God. Yeah. Hey, if you have gauges, I'm glad you're doing you. I will not be getting gauges, but I will probably get a black earring again. You're not getting a black. Yeah, well, no. What you prefer diamond? Yeah. Like a fake diamond. Yeah. I just feel like I'm like a rapper. Like if I go diamond, I feel like I'm going for like rapper vibes. A little like cross. A hanging cross with the bass pro hat. Yeah. I'll do that.
And then I'll film some sit-through cult. This is a meeting for Ritio. Have like one of those. Babe. I'm telling him you said that. Sorry. Kaden. Kaden does have a classical like sheribum tattoo and like Hebrew on his forearm, you know. He's not a dangle cross guy. He's not a dangle cross. That would be a lot. And I have seen him wear like a bass pro hat, but he has not crossed that line. He has some self-awareness, okay? Well, I think that you should just go full-send on the cross dangle.
Okay, I'll do it. All right, so YouTube is popping. Hey, where else is this popping? Because if there is one thing we consistently hear from singles across the US, the thing that they hunger for is not hearing more of JJ, maybe more of Kate, but they crave one thing. What is it? Besides getting married, obviously. Yeah, what is it? They crave connection. Yeah. They like want to hang out and see each other. That's true. So what are we doing for them? Do you mean this fall? I mean, this fall.
We have Camp HD coming at you. Camp HD. Guys, it's our first ever heart of dating retreat, okay? And it's going to be an Asheville, North Carolina, this September 27 through 29th, Friday through Sunday. And it's going to be so fun. It's going to be popping. It's also going to be the most beautiful time of the year in Asheville. Now, we specifically picked the Appalachia Smoky Mountains in the fall. Yeah. Will they be smores? Yeah, there will be smores. Will they be games? There will be games.
Will they be hanging out? Or we're just going to be listening to lectures every single hour, every single day? No, there are tons of games. There's going to be lawn games and competitions, fire pits, mores, nature walk. But yeah, I mean, there are going to be lectures. But more so, just not lectures, like we're going to have workshops and mentors come in that really help. It's less of like, oh, here's a stage teaching. Yeah. Well, if we're being transparent, what?
We're pretty over lectures and keynotes. We kind of are. And why is that? You get every single Sunday at church, you get every single conference you go to. And what people are actually more hungry for and how they learn is through asking questions, through talking about it, through interactive experiences. Yes. And you don't get that. That's why small group is so important at church because you process what you heard on a Sunday. Right. And that's when it actually starts sinking in.
But we all listen to lectures all the time. I know. And Kate and I go to conferences all the time now. And we always walk out and saying, what was your favorite part? Well, when I got to connect. And the hallway with these two or three people that I've never met before and they were awesome. We're hanging out with them next week. And we're going to go visit them next year. Yeah. And but we never really say, oh, that lecture. Right. Unless it's someone who's like fantastic.
It's like just create an awesome venue for people who are like, my did you connect? And that's a big thing we want to do. You guys will go to hang out with us, potentially Eleanor. Our team. It's going to be super intimate. What about loving? Like camp style. I don't think dogs are allowed. Sorry. But go. Ben, did you check? Are you just saying that? I don't think they are. I haven't checked that. If they are allowed. You can bring lobby. Yes. But I don't think she's going to be able to come.
Well, we'll find okay. We'll find out. But come join us at Camp AjoG. This fall in Asheville. And then the last thing is if you want to keep supporting this podcast, we have an awesome Patreon community. We love our fanbam. We have done a few matchmaking events so far. And last month we did a workshop on triggers and anxiety. And it was such a powerful workshop.
And so we're just really committed in Patreon to really creating a community there of our true HOD fans and like our tried and true people. And giving you guys awesome resources. We need to follow up on our last matchmaking round because it ended on this guy and this girl who are both wanting to be pastors. Both of them have the same mannerisms. They had like a similar energy and vibe. And like everyone in the chat was like, goodness gracious. I think we're witnessing.
I think we're witnessing it happen right now in front of us. It's happening. He scrambled right after the call to get her number. He told me by the way to ask her out. I was like, dude, if you don't, there's like 10 guys waiting. I know. Every guys like, if he's not going for it, I am. We're going to get into the episode. We have a lot to cover for y'all. You may have seen the title. We're in a season on hot takes, Christian dating hot takes.
And today we're talking about don't date for marriage. Wow. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean? You're just dropping that title. Yeah. Like immediately. Hot cake. Okay. Okay. Don't date for marriage. Okay, you can't say that. I know. But I can. And I did. If you said that and 90% no, sorry, 99% of churches. People are going to be like, wow, she's a blasphemer. Is that a word? I don't know. They're going to be like, yo, get her out of here. She doesn't know what she's talking about.
No, so I, I'm obviously you have something to follow that up, right? You're just not going to leave this. Yes. Okay. So many years ago, I was talking to my friend, Dr. Henry Cloud. Nice flex, by the way. Sorry. No, I mean, okay, whatever. And anyway, he said this during a conversation, like, don't date for marriage. Me like, don't date. You can't date so only people that you think you're going to marry. Why not? Because then insane thought.
How do you know you want to marry them if you don't know them? And then don't date for marriage. And now we're not saying that you shouldn't be marriage minded. We're saying, what is dating? Dating is that time to get to know someone before you get into a relationship. You shouldn't be thinking about marriage quite yet. So don't date for marriage is our way of saying, don't be so crazy intentional. Don't be so crazy where you're thinking of, this is my future husband or wife.
And my thinking of that already from date one, because you're putting way too much pressure on it. So what we want to really break down here is hyper intentional dating. Right. So I shouldn't be intentional and think about marriage when I go out on a date. No, I'm not saying to never think about marriage. Okay, you're saying. I'm saying in the first date, you shouldn't be thinking about could this be my future husband or wife. Okay, so that thought should not cross my mind.
No, it should be do I own know enough information to see this person one more time. You are trying to we break dating down into five stages, right? Or the dating process. Single dating relationship engage married. Each one builds upon the next. So in the dating phase, when we're talking about don't date for marriage. In the dating phase, you're looking to be in a relationship. The relationship is looking into if you can get engaged. Engagement is preparing for marriage.
So if you are in the dating phase in the first few dates, getting to know someone and already zooming to. Can I marry this person? You are skipping a whole bunch of the process and you are actually it may seem noble because you're being quote intentional. Oh, man, but like I'm so I'm not here to waste your time. But actually, there's a lot of wisdom because you're not pacing. You don't really know this person.
You either are going to eliminate them because you can't see them as your future husband. And you maybe really didn't give them a true awesome shot. And they could have been a great partner for you. Or you're going to see all these amazing qualities that you really don't know if there's any depth behind these qualities. But you see that there are a Christian. They say if you great things, you have a lot of chemistry and you're like, I can this is my future husband. I can see this.
And but like literally you don't know if he is a con artist. I mean, no joke. But you're talking about like the tinler or swin there. Yeah, exactly. And for real, like that's what I mean. Like you're why a lot of Christians think the only reason to date is to get married. And you want to get married probably at the end of the dating to relationship to engagement process. But on a first day in the very beginning, you shouldn't be like, can I marry this person right away? That's a hot take.
Okay. So should, but I should not go out with someone who I know I'm not going to be able to marry or will not marry like meaning a non Christian right? I would not. Okay, right. I wouldn't I wouldn't say, hey, yeah, just that means go out with, you know, the atheist that you think is cute. Right. That's not what I'm saying here. But what you are saying is the question could just be like this, could I marry this person? Maybe, but I have no idea.
Right. Should I marry them that question is not being entertained? Right. That's not on the table. Right. Could I marry them? Who knows? They seem like a great guy. They seem like an amazing woman who loves God. Right. Should I marry them? How can I make the decision? I don't even know. I don't have another great point to this is we're not we're also not saying, hey, just date to have a good time and blah, blah, blah. Like you want to enjoy the dating process.
But I would honestly say if, if you know right now that you are not in a stage in a place in your life where you do want to get married, some point in the near future, you probably shouldn't be dating. Yeah. Because then you are just wasting people's time and trying to have fun. Well, the way I say it is if you met that person who checks every box is like the galleus, most humble, servant, hard to person, you've ever met like immediate yes. Person of your dreams.
And if you met them tomorrow, would you be able to marry them? Yeah. Great question. Like are you in a place emotionally spiritually mentally? And we're not saying perfect. Right. Because like that's not going to happen. Could you get married tomorrow? Right. To the right person. Are you interested in married any time? If the answer is no. I know I like being a bachelor. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Which you know, I is totally okay if that's where you're at. So let's back up though.
Like where did this idea of hyper intentional dating in the Christian world? Because it's very much a Christian thing. Where did this come from? Yeah. Well, I, this was so much fun because I actually did a little bit of research about dating in general. Like if you think about it, where did it come from? Right. Like how do we have this term modern day dating? And so it goes back. So before roughly like the 20th century, marriages happen two ways, like throughout all of time.
There was arranged marriages where it was very communal. Your dad, your basically, whoever was, you know, in charge and had authority over the email, gave permission to set them up with another family. You married for status. There's usually a dowry. Right. But you married for socioeconomic status. You married like families who are on the same. We're like almost like quote business political reason.
Yeah. So, you know, right, you think about like the game of thrones, kind of type marriage where there's like alliances and stuff. So marriages, that was like the historical use case. Then you talk about like the Victorian era, right, the English area of dating, which was what? Courtship. I'm courting. We're courting. That was a dumb show that you watched at one point and lots of other women. Bridgerton. Yeah, Bridgerton. Are you calling me out right now? That's not my very Christian.
Yeah. But you have watched it. Oh, whoa. Yeah, I have watched it. Yeah. I definitely fast forwarded through a lot though. I mean, not like wow. Is it a bad? Is it? Yeah, there's some stuff. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad you fast forwarded. Not saying that I would have been for all of y'all to watch it. So, okay, courtship, right? Yeah. So there is some autonomy.
But in the courtship model, there's still like a parent involved, like typically a father or like an organization like the church involved who is giving permission for someone to date. Right. So there's oversight. Those are Sag parrot right now. Referitions obviously of the community with the artist. Let's ask, can you tell what it's like to put your Sister Pre caviar p مثola out of the way compared to the Mar stable food. And and of course there's many charges that say my تست right?
where it's like she's being introduced to society. Now you wanna know where it gets crazy. Yeah. I think J.P.E.N. is book, I'll data talks about the history of dating a little bit. Actually, I think he does, yeah. So, but I'd sort of do some research. So the way we got to dating and how it actually originally started like that term and the way it was started being used is nuts. At the end of the 19th century, women started to be able to go to college and have individual freedom.
Are you sure on the end of the 19th century? Yes, like the early 1900s. This is the first time we started seeing women. Well, it's the 20th century. Yeah, so at the end of the 19th, going into the 20th. Okay, I got it. So I know it's, centuries are so confusing like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll just say this, the early 1900s. Okay, so folks. Women started to be able to leave the home for the first time. Like they weren't just purely home makers. They could actually go to college in schools.
They could actually leave the house. The problem was they still have jobs. Like women did not really enter in the workforce and full force, especially until like the 1950s and 60s. But women started to be able to leave. They just had no money. So the agreement was the men, the businessmen, the men who actually did have disposable income would offer to take out young women like their 20s and 30s who didn't have money for experiences.
So they go out to dinner, they go do experiences and basically the unwritten agreement was, if I take you out and treat you, then we will have sex. Oh my, okay. That's basically what the unwritten agreement was updating. Yeah, I didn't know that. So when you hear that dating was actually a way of prostitution, like that's how it started out, that's how it really was. It was like voluntary prostitution. Wow. Isn't that crazy?
I'm out, but then with the, like, I scratch your back, you scratch my back. Exactly. Like I give you experience, like, if you're dinner and it's like wine and dined. Yeah, wow. So when we talk about dating, like the literal term itself, and we talk about Christian dating, we are talking about like a Christian version of what started out as prostitution. Right.
Okay, so, so obviously in the 50s and 60s, dating really evolved into what we kind of see as modern day dating, where there is no permission from either side, like if a woman wanted to go out with a man, and man wanted to go out with a woman, Yeah, she could. She could, and he could. And a woman could show interest in a guy, and, you know, it was very much like a egalitarian.
But, and that note, like still a lot of the dating back then was like you married people that from your work or from in your neighborhood or neighbors, like, Right, there was no such thing as the internet. Yeah, the pond was very small. So you dated within like your community? Yeah. Or the people you do. There were more setups and things like that. Totally. What's up, fam? This episode of Sponsor by BetterHelp, they've actually been a partner with us for years and years.
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They are an amazing partner and thank you to BetterHelp for being a sponsor of today's episode on Heart of Dating. As far as like Christian dating, I think what I really saw when I was researching it is there was always this idea of Christian dating, but in the 90s with Josh Harris, a courtship and Christian dating kind of like. That was early 2000, so I was booking that. But it really got like ratcheted up to this idea of like, we're not dating, we're courting again.
Right, because then dating, because of the roots and prostitution and people see being together. Right, and then the sexual revolution. Exactly. Then it's like, okay, we can still date. We're not going to have your parents pick out the person for you anymore. But there needs to be a lot of rules here. Yeah, because we're Christians. Obviously we're trying to, and think about how mesulous this is. Christians are trying to adopt a secular practice of dating.
That culture is promoting in front of them. Obviously we're going to walk up to that and say, as Christians, our process should look very different. Because our goal is different. Right. And how we treat each other is different. Yeah. And what we consider like good and holy and glorifying a God is different. Yeah. So their idea to respond to that was Christian dating or what evolved to be courtship, which is like there's discipleship involved. There's authority involved.
There's like your head of the household as the dad, like the spiritual leader and guide of that girl involved. They're still permission, right? There's like dating and friend groups. Nobody can ever be allowed. Yeah. And the challenge with this is, legalism is basically inventing any kind of rule outside the Bible and saying that this is the way it has to be done. Meaning if I struggle with pornography, and my rule is that when I go to a hotel room, I unplug the TV.
And because that is the best way to effectively kind of minimize the behavior, right? And glorify God by not looking at porn. Therefore, everyone and every young man when they travel, they have to implement that same rule, right, which is unplugging the TV. And if you don't, you're a back Christian. Right. That's what happened with me in high school with when the dating process of like, are you guys are dating? OK, so in order to do that, you have to follow. Here are the set of rules, exactly.
Like, you know, and I've said this on many episodes, but like it was a whole set of rules. Right. So legalism would basically, long story short, be saying, this is the only way to do it. This is the way. Exactly. And what we're saying is not scrap all rules and trust your gut and only your gut and go out there and date. What we're just saying is like, there's best practices when it comes to dating wisely with intention. Right. Well, can we just pause for a moment?
Like, what is your real thoughts when people say these days recording? Like, is that's a word people still use? Yeah, you know, I hate to speak in a stereotype. I will go back to my experience. For some reason, whenever I heard, we're not dating. We're courting. I just felt like some era of like, I don't know, arrogance. Yeah. Like, there was some kind of like, we're not dating, like, heathens and pagans. Like, we're doing this like a special way, which is courting. This is a special way.
And then this is where we're more godly than even like a couple who's dating, who happened to be Christians, because we're courting. Yeah. And I did date a guy back in the day who was like, I'm not going to call it dating. I'm courting you. Yeah. And I think, you know, again, my, in honestly, I would say their intention was probably good. We want to date in a way that glorifies God. If anyone says that, I'm like, I'm all for it.
I just feel like courting carries some kind of like elevated stance that this is the most holy way to date. This is the most glorifying way to God to date. And again, I understand in a way. It's like, because if we think about courting the way you just described it, bringing some core people in. Yes. That's a good idea. Right. But I think we also, like, we take this to an extreme of like, we pick someone up from the crowd and now we're courting them after one day.
Yeah. And it's like, okay, wait, like, do you even know this person? And I guess what the challenge I've seen with courting is, is because it's hype that what you talked about and what we'll talk about with our guests at the end, which is when we hyper intentionalized dating, we are prone to committing way to quickly. Yes. Because it's very public. Yeah. We're engaging with them and going out with them exclusively before we really know them. Like here would be better.
Can I, I'm sorry, I'm sure no go ahead. I would, I would say actually in this realm of courting because I kind of like square when I hear that word too, go on dates, date somebody for 60 and 90 days. And then when you're in a relationship, then maybe you can call a courting. Yeah. Oh, totally. Totally. And then when people are doing, they're like calling it courting from the very beginning. Yes. And to me, courting insinuates that, oh, I'm, I'm going to probably marry this person.
So we're preparing for me. Yeah, exactly. I love that you pointed that out. For me, when I hear courting, I just think of, I'm interested in a girl. I go straight to her, her dad or, you know, whoever's that authority over here, I'm asking honorably for permission to take her out to coffee and just because of that alone and maybe going out on the three dates with them, like, I have so much skin in the game. Like, it's so public.
I've already made so many declarations on my intention that, which is fine if you were in a place where, like, you could still hold it loosely. But this is really very hard. You can't hold that loosely. Exactly. Like, it's just, I think what we can all agree and we talk about this with Jamie is, it's just hard to walk away. Yeah, it's so hard to walk away. Like, it's just something, there's just something. And we'll talk about that later with Jamie.
But as humans, we know that it's just simply when we have a lot of skin in the game, emotionally, we're really involved and invested, it's just simply hard to walk away from anything in life. Yeah. It's because what if, like, you are, even if, like, everyone talks so highly of this person, right? But, you know, some people might know this person and think their reputation is great, but they may not have a depth of relationship with that person. Yes. I do not happen a lot.
Yes. And I'm even careful sometimes when I'm like, I think he's a great guy. You know, I'm like, well, actually, I don't really know him that well. Yes. I don't vulnerable know him. I've never seen him mess up. I've never seen him in a bad place. So I can't really speak to his character 100%. Yes. Like, I think he seems like a good guy. So you may even have people vouching for the person and you're like, okay, awesome, awesome, awesome. I'm going to hyper commit because these people are great.
Yeah. And the instruction that I do most often is to. I'll let you know I'll%. Then I'll be there too. I'm not worthy of each other. Anyone from your second fully independent person that you would introduce mercenary way to come up. Let's get faced that's what's sad. Boy, look at there. Bunching forces are so sad. And then we're going to talk aboutсли, but when you go crazy, Mysita wants to come up to you at the other point, you may first. That bignies look at people like my God has improved.
And that's never defeated me back. I'm afraid nothingnesses where material physical strength isn't being qualified enough to really help you. Okay. That's what don't he say is right? It hasn't been done usually. At least I can even thank Francisco. taken out to coffee, like it's a whole spectacle person. We're courting and it comes out, you know, on like the second or third date.
Now, obviously we would hope that she would have the way with all to say no. Obviously, the girl in question that we're not gonna name, yes, after the first date she was like, this is never gonna happen. Yeah, but imagine all that pressure to make it work. Right. And then all of a sudden she's on a third date and she sees red flags. But I like it's like, oh, well, this was just vouched by all these people and there's so much pressure here and we're already like coming out as courting.
Yeah, and if it would be really hard to break it off. And I know that sounds silly, but like we have all been in situations where we've had a friend or ourselves have been dating and we should not have been dating that person and we've just stuck around too long. In fact, Jamie talks about later as we bring her on, somebody that we set her up with, that I regret setting her up with.
Yes. It's like a great example of like, and she committed to him for many reasons, but also like, probably there was a little bit of like, well, Kate and Jay-Jay recommended him. Yeah, so what do you think about this? Marriage is the ultimate goal of dating, but the immediate and short-term one is finding out whether or not I wanna be in a relationship with them. Right, so even shorter. Marriage is the ultimate part of the process of dating and dating is a step to get there.
Yes. But it's, yes, okay, if that makes sense. Yes, it does. So dating is a part of the process that will hopefully end in marriage, hopefully, potentially, but you're not thinking about that from the very beginning. That's not the primary focus. I'm, because then it also, let me just say one more thing on this. It also almost like makes it like this, my soul thing is to figure out whether or not you're gonna be my husband or wife, right? It's like objectifying.
It's very objectifying versus like, I'm here to get curious about this awesome manner woman of God. My agenda is not to like psychoanalyze this person to figure out if they're gonna be the perfect fit for me. I won't know that on the first day. I know that these things take time. And even if I don't end up being with this person, I want to show them honor, love, kindness, respect. I wanna enjoy this experience of this person because there, because God doesn't create boring people.
And so I think like if we are just going into it with this hyper-fixation of marriage, it's objectifying personally. That was so good. Thank you. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, I think I really think that it is. It's very like, what can this person like, you know, I'm, how do they fit into my life? It's like when we watch love is blind, we bring it up a lot, right? They're like, oh my gosh, you would just fit so great into my life. Yes, wow, good job, Kate. Way to go.
Well, that's all we got for today's episode. I know Kate could have been, I mean, did you take it easy right there or did you drop the hammer? I could have probably said more, but I tried to. I'm sorry. I love that. You did a great job. I love it when you talk about dating. I think you do a great job. Alan Orn did a great job as well. I just, I love it when you go a layer deeper and you really call out a good, healthy, practical, wise way to date.
But again, if people want to court, like we're not here to say, courtings wrong. Yeah, it's just, hey, it's not the only way and I would highly caution you. I don't think it has the most wisdom. Yeah, exactly. And so we're just saying, but again, we don't want to be illegalistic and say, this is the only way either, right? We're saying one of the best ways we found one of the most glorifying ways to God and the other person is to do it this way. Yeah, totally. Okay. Okay. What's up, Jamie?
Let's go. All right. So now that we've chatted all through courting the weirdness of courting, hyper intentional dating, we are bringing in our girl, Jamie, to talk about her story about this and it's going to be awesome. So Jamie, hello, my girl. How are you? I'm fabulous. How are you doing? We're great. We miss you too. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. Come to the stage. It's not the same.
I'm just. My. Oh, for those of you guys that don't know, Jamie was our wedding planner. She's phenomenal as a wedding planner and as a human being and then became our real life best friend after planning our wedding. Like, what is the dream come true? So Jamie, we have been chatting all about courting and hyper intentional dating and I, you know, it's not fair to the listeners because I know your story. And I've been there through a lot of the recent last few years, obviously.
But the first thing I want to ask you is, were you ever impacted by this culture of hyper intentional dating? One million percent. Yeah. Tell us more, tell us more what it looks like. Would it like on the receiving end or like you also hyper intentionalize yourself or both? I hyper intentionalize myself. Hands down. Yeah. So what it was like for me, I would go on a date with a guy and I'd be like, oh my gosh, you go to church? I go to church. Let's get married.
Let's just be boyfriend and girlfriend. You're right. I'm already like putting my last name, you know, or his last name with my name. And what would happen is I would get to know him after committing two, I mean, you guys two, three, maybe four weeks, so very, very early on. And then here I'm committed and I've been physical. And as I continue to get to know him, I realize, I actually can't trust him. You know what? I actually, I can't even like rely on him.
You know, in fact, our values, like they don't align at all, but because I have committed, because I've already been physical, I'm like, well, you know what? I'm just gonna stay and pray and see if I can pray him into, yeah, into the person that I hope that he will be. And that just led me down being stuck and getting heartbroken.
So I love the earbrain this up because that's I think one of the biggest risks that we touch on in this hyper intentional dating is it has great intention, but there's a lack of wisdom in there because if you hyper commit to somebody before you really know them, like you're saying Jamie, you're like, you got a church, I got a church, you have a few good character qualities. I think I don't really know because I haven't seen you through time, but yes, okay, great. We have chemistry.
I'm attracted to you. Awesome. Boyfriend. Slap the word on it. Now you're publicly exclusive. You're like sharing your heart with him. And you know, it can seem great because you have this intention of being really committed to somebody. You're not playing around. You're not on other dating. You're not going on other dates. You're just committed only eyes for him, right? But then a month in, two months in, usually I find it's like 45 to 60 days is usually like the timeframe.
Then you're like, oh, whoa, I had, oh, there was some aggression there. There's some anger coming out there. Oh, wow, he was disrespectful to that person. Oh, wow, he doesn't handle stress well. Oh, my goodness. He said he had all these guy friends. He doesn't really have guy friends and there's no depth with the guy friends he does have. And like all these things come out, but you're already committed. And it's much harder to end something when you are already in so deep with your heart.
You're in so deep publicly with other people around you that know about them, about you guys. And it's so much harder to end things when you're, when you've committed that far either publicly or just like in your heart emotionally. And then you're like, wow, that was a massive heartbreak. I did that three times. Yeah, and that's, that's a big deal. Do you have anything to add to JJ? Well, I was just thinking I'm like, I think universally it's just hard to walk away from anything in life.
It's hard to walk away from even a horrible job. It's hard to walk away from a cold. Even if you know it's deeply wrong, it's hard to walk away from a marriage. It's just anytime we have a lot of emotions and relational equity involved, it's just hard to walk away from things. Right? So wisdom is saying, hey, because I know this person might not be who they say they are or who they appear to be, I'm gonna take my time.
Because the reality is that we all know, and we've all I think at some point in time been in a relationship that we should not have been, and we stayed longer than we should have stayed. And usually that's because we've already committed too far in our hearts or physically or what have you. Yeah, we've committed for some reason or another, and one of those reasons is we're just trying to be intentional. Yeah, right.
And so, Jamie, you've heard this example when we used it in school dating, wisdom and intention are binded together. You can't have one without the other. If I have great intention with no wisdom, well, guess what? I love my neighbors and I'm supposed to give to the poor. So having the best intention in the world, I'm gonna go to the bank and I'm gonna take out a loan for $10 million and I'm gonna give every single person my neighborhood $100,000 because I'm called to be generous.
That sounds like a great intention. Does that not sound like the best intention you've ever heard? Because then, you know, we live right close to Dave Ramsey, Dave Ramsey's like, where are you getting that money, JJ? How stupid would I be to do that? Right? Is that not just the most unwise thing you've ever heard in your life? So wisdom is always binded with intention and intention is always binded with wisdom.
So I love that, JJ, and so Jamie, we've also been touching on this word, like casual dating, okay? And in the episode prior to us bringing you on here, we've chatted through like, what does that actually mean? What do we define it as versus like, what culture says it is and all these things? When you hear or when you used to hear the word casual dating, like, what kind of popped up in your mind with that? Well, little backstory.
So I actually, I read Henry's book a long time ago, so I was familiar with dating multiple people. So I got to be in the first class, the school of dating, actually during the wedding planning process. And I remember, Kate and JJ, when you brought up dating multiple people, and I just turned it off because I was like, I don't, I, it wasn't that I didn't believe it. It was that I didn't want to do it. I didn't know that. Right? Yeah, yeah. I just, I didn't, I didn't want to do it.
And okay, so to the question of what I thought it was was, while I knew that there was like a healthy, you know, background to it, I just looked at it as exhausting and difficult and all this conflict that I didn't want to deal with. Like, I really just wanted to meet a guy right away, admit and let it be, let it be that. As says every single person ever, of course, you want it to be like a one-stop shop. Let me go on a dating app one time, have one swipe, find him, and that's it, right?
Perfect. Yeah, because I didn't want to, I didn't want to put it in the work, I just wanted it to happen. And, you know, it happened after school of dating, even though I knew in my gut that I should do this, I refused. So actually, when you guys stepped me up, I was gotten a date, I was super excited. I wanted to be like a one and done, but I did it again, where I hyper attached too quickly.
I put the physical before getting to know him, seeing if I could rely on him, trust him, and what ended up happening. I ended up with a broken heart again. So then I was like, okay, let's look a little bit more serious at this casual dating. Wow, so you had to go through, even after learning about it, and knowing what you should do, still found yourself hyper-intentionalizing, hyper-attaching, and really before you knew the guy.
And I'd say even like, you know, one thing that just hit me, Jamie, is the guy could even be a nice guy, and we can still hyper-attach, and it's not even a him thing, but he walks away and breaks her heart. And women, I mean, I hate to stereotype it, women, and this can happen vice versa, but in this example, people are absolutely heartbroken. And it actually has nothing to do with the other guy's character.
And I'm not saying this is your case, but because they hyper-attach, out of hyper-intentionality, I really think that's one of the huge reasons why you see so many people running around absolutely broken-hearted, with people who it was never really that serious with. Right, because it still could be a great guy. Like I think of the guy dated years ago, I talk about it in my book. Thank you for rejecting me. Chapter five, his name in the book is Chris.
That's not his real name, but for privacy sake. What's his real name? And I'm not gonna say that. And so basically, we dated for a few months. He was my boyfriend. I put all my eggs in that basket. I was so... Was he your boyfriend though after a few months? Yeah, it was really fast. I mean, this is before I was really practicing these things. Okay. Yeah. So we committed very early on. It's all sunshine rainbows, butterflies. I'm like in love, capital L-O-V, okay.
And I'm like hyper-hyper committed. We're talking about getting married, blah, blah, blah. And after a few months, he breaks up with me. So, and that he's not a bad guy. Like to this day, if I saw him on the street, I would totally say hello and it would be fine. It wouldn't be like, oh my gosh, I need to get away from this guy. He is a great person. He isn't like a super unhealthy guy, nothing like that. He wasn't abusive in any way, nothing like that.
But just I hyper committed to somebody before really allowing things to be paced through time with wisdom. And like you're saying, maybe we don't even find out that the guy is toxic at the end. And like, be like, oh crap, I'm dating a toxic guy. I mean, a relationship with a toxic guy. Maybe it's just we hyper commit in our hearts. And before we should. And then it ends and we're overly heartbroken. Yeah. Because we just put way too many of our eggs in that basket. Totally.
Hey, sounds like he sounds like a great guy. What's his name? JJ Stop. But Jamie, I love that word to use. We've actually never used it. So we have to give you credit. Hyperattach. Hyperattach. So you feel like that was a big part of your story? Yeah, I do. And I think that if I would have stepped back and gave it time, I would have realized, hey, our attachment styles, like they actually don't go well together.
If I would have given it time, it would have been like, wow, this is a good guy, but he's actually not available. And I want someone who's available. So do you guys want to know what it's like now? Yes, please tell us. OK, so I got into enough pain. And I decided, OK, Lord, I'm going all in. I'm doing this challenge. Now, I know it's not for everyone, but it definitely was for me. Because I hyperattached too quickly. So I committed to do this journey with kindness, integrity, and honesty.
And no matter what, I would leave every single man better off whatever that looked like, whether I was being rejected or vice versa. So I jumped in. And I would say one of the biggest gifts. Again, I would attach to soon. And the boundary with the dating challenge is dating non-exclusively with leaving the physical component out, leaving the component out for 90 days. OK, so during those 90 days, just like you said, between 45 to 60 days, you start to see some wonky things.
The red flags that I have seen, like astronomical. And there's like some guys that I honestly, everything on paper, I would have committed right away, but I was committed to this challenge. And then God was so good. He was so sweet in revealing all of these things that I needed to see. Honestly, and I'm thinking, I'm not going to say explicit here or not explicit. I'm not going to say explicitly things that I know to be true because you and I are close friends.
And we've talked about many things. But like seeing this out with you over the last few years, there's been so many guys that show a lot of great potential in the beginning, where it's like, OK, wow, this could be awesome. Let's see where this goes. And maybe past Jamie would have been like, boyfriend status. This is amazing. Best guy ever. But you're pacing it. You're still giving it some time as you should, even if you were getting excited. And there was some great potential.
And there were a couple that I can think of up the top of my head where it's like, wow, that's at a left field. That just, whoa, I did not see that coming. Really glad we weren't boyfriend girlfriend because, yeah, this is not going to work out. And it's like, man, I'm just so glad that you, and those moments were still heartbreaking, of course, in their own way.
But I feel like it just could have been so much worse in many ways for you if you had already you were in that relationship with that with one of, or a few of these guys I'm thinking of, right? Yeah, yeah. And you guys dating has become so much fun. Like I go into each date with excitement, ease, one thing that I take into every first date. And even in the dating stages is just a light heart, taking the pressure off, leaning back into my feminine, and really just having a relaxed vibe.
And I think that's changed everything, because I think before, because there was so much pressure, this guy has to be the one that I wanted to know every single thing, I wanted to perform, I wanted it to be perfect. Or now it's like, no, I know who I am, I know who's I am. So I can divorce myself from any outcome possible during this date. So it gives me the freedom to actually get to know the man that's sitting across from me. And if I'm nervous, I just got to laugh it off.
I'm like, whoa, I'm a little nervous. You're really handsome. I don't really want to tell you. But it's just, it's been so fun to see God's sovereignty in this process. It's been great to see how much He's protected me. And you guys, when I was so afraid of, I'm not afraid of anymore. You know, I was so afraid of conflict. Like, I don't want to have to have her conversations. I have her conversations all the time. And it's great. It's great because it refines me, it refines them.
And I mean, aside from having fun, I've also learned a lot of lessons. Right? Like, I would say one of the biggest things for me is that these guys that I would attach very quickly to, they were all unavailable. I would say that is the consistent. Like, I'm the common denominator, but the common denominator with them is that they were unavailable. So through each date, instead of putting all this pressure and I'm leaning back and I'm like, okay, like, let's see who they are.
I've been able to ask myself questions, how do I feel during the day? Well, that didn't actually feel good. Wait, that felt really good, but why did that feel good? And because I questioned myself, because I had accountability, because I let people know that I was doing this challenge, I actually moved from attracting the unavailable to attracting the available. Right? And I know longer abandoned myself during dating.
And of course, there are hard times where I don't want to have to say goodbye, but I know I need to. I actually have a breakup bench at the end of my street when I have to do a breakup. I'm like, time to go to the breakup bench. But at the end of the day, the caliber of men that I am dating today is unreal. And I'm so thankful for it. So incredible. Like, to hear them on a joy in your voice, which is genuine.
It's genuine joy, genuine, like, thanks to God for the experiences and the learnings you're having. Like, and like, I'm sure I could talk to so many of the guys you've dated and be like, and I know I feel like they would say, like, this was a great experience. Dating Jamie was awesome. Should we do that as a bonus episode? Yeah, I'll just get all the guys and not miss a thing. Yeah, they enjoy dating you.
So Jamie, if you could just send over their contact information and we'll just do like a little call in radio session. Hey, so I have a question though, Jamie. Say you just found out about this, the casual dating, the dating challenge and everything, you have like your apprehensive self. This is what like two years ago. And you could go back and just tell yourself one thing, what would you go back and tell yourself? That it is healthy. That it is healthy and the process makes you whole.
That's so good. That's so interesting. So because you looked at it saying, this isn't unhealthy or it's going to be exhausting is also what you said. I feel like that's a lot of people. The two sides I hear when people, when we talk about quote casually dating or just not hyper committing, right? Is what we're meaning is either people are saying, oh, that is exhausting or number two, that sounds super unhealthy. Right. That is horrible. You know, it's like one of those two responsibilities.
So you would say now like casual dating the way we define it and approach it is the healthiest way to date. Absolutely. I would never take it back. You guys, it has changed not only like my dating life, but it's changed my entire life, the way that I live, that I live life. And I actually don't think it's exhausting. I think it's so much fun. I have a blast with it and I'm dated a lot. So yeah, you can ask me any question and I can tell you that it's worth it.
And I also love that in knowing you and a big thing that we're about, which I think is where the like we need the rubber meets the road with this is that we also are so big about leaving people better than you found them. And so in this process, it's like you're communicating. I know you do this, Jamie. You tell them like, hey, I'm going on dates with other people. You're very open about communication. Like you you end it with them kindly, as kindly as you possibly can without ghosting them.
If they ghost you, you might challenge them. You might be like, hey, and I knew you. I do. We still have to make that video. I know. Yeah. Ghostbuster. We still have to make that ghostbuster video for you and everyone else to send over. That's so funny. But I'm just, I'm truly, Jamie, so inspired by you.
Like you are a testimony, a testament to like, you know, hyper attaching, challenging yourself being skeptical, then challenging yourself and like having it completely transform the way you date, the way you see yourself. And yeah, it's phenomenal. I'm so proud of you, my girl. Oh, thank you. You can never be here without you guys. So thank you. Now it's just time to get you married. OK. Yeah, I mean, I never thought I think you paid your dues. So it's time.
I actually have a setup for you from fact. So what a fun way to end up. Yeah. Oh, we're good. Let's go. I'll say his name because no one will know him. I can't let you name him. His name is Dallas. Oh, I don't know who that is. No, you don't know him. So my name is Dallas. So I don't think he listens to her. Really, Dallas is, I know, our married. So obviously it's not them. Yeah. So it's not them just to clarify. But yeah, his name is Dallas. And so follow up after this.
And let's make it happen. OK. I love it. Thank you, JJ. Yeah. Hey, oh, to end the episode, actually, I'm two for two on my most recent setups. Actually, he is Jamie. We just found out JJ connected two different sets of people at HODC Nash this last year. And coming to find out these two sets of people are now in relation to still dating and like going very strong five months later. So there's something to say for JJ setups over here. Yeah. JJ, the matchmaker. I love it.
Yeah. I'm going to start a matchmaking company. Oh my gosh. OK. That would be fun because all the matchmaking companies are, well, yeah, Jamie would be my first client. All these matchmakers are usually female, like little bougie, you know, they live in like LA or New York, but I'm like, it's time of May and steps into this world. OK. A straight man. A straight man. Actually, I think that's amazing. That would be cool. All right, Jamie, well, thank you so much for sharing your story.
We love you. I love you both so much. I miss you so much too. Yeah. I'll send the client and take form after this. OK. Done. OK. All right. Bye, Jamie. Bye, you guys. The heart of dating podcast is created by Kate and JJ Tomlin. Shout out to our epic audio and video editor, Scott Carro. We have an amazing heart of dating team who helps bring this show to you each week.
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So we'll see you next week.