You were basically admitting I was shallow. I was shallow. And I'm so glad that I like of the shallowness. Yeah. But instead of being celebrated, people were like, how dare you talk about you being shallow. Yeah. What's up everybody? It's Kate. And this is season 13 of The Heart of Dating Podcast. This is a fun season. It's a lucky number 13. Oh yeah, I didn't think about that. What's so special about this season? This season, we're doing Christian hot takes. Christian dating hot
takes. Wow. So. So we're basically going to be going through some of the kind of more controversial statements, thoughts, situations when it comes to Christian dating. And we're going to be sharing our thoughts and opinions. Okay. I have a thought. Yes. Because sometimes people have hot takes. And it's a little bit more because they would just want to be controversial or stir the pot or be different or unique. Is that what you, is that what we're going for?
We're not just trying to stir the pot. No. No. We really want to talk about there is no one set way to do Christian dating. Okay. But everybody's out here having all different opinions, all like doing dating, all different kinds of ways. And one of our big goals here through Heart of Dating is to get whoever listens to this podcast on the same playing field. You know, like, let's try to answer some of these things that are really confusing that no, but buddy really has a
blueprint for and say, okay, how do we like, what do we really think about this? How do we maybe get on the same page with this? Yeah, I like that. So are you saying that hot takes and controversial takes, they can be constructive. Like they can be, they can actually be not just entertaining, like it's entertaining to hear a hot take like Taylor Swift is demonic, you know, like, well, and subscribe to that, it's going to probably be entertaining at least to listen to, right?
Yeah, definitely. But you're saying controversial takes can also be like encouraging, edifying, constructive. Yes. Okay. What would an example of that be? Like the one we're talking about today. What are we talking about today? That I wasn't initially attracted to you. Oh, that's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, we're starting it off. You know that you stop it right now. You know, that's what we're starting off with you talking about how you thought
I was ugly. I never said that. That's what people thought I said. But yeah, that's what people definitely interpret it. Okay, I can't wait. So. Well, before we dive in, just a few things, if you're watching us on YouTube, what's up, everyone? We moved to Franklin, Tennessee, and we're in the process of creating our new podcast studio. We actually do have some new lighting, which I'm pretty stoked about because not going to lie, we don't really know what we're
doing sometimes when it comes to lighting. We have no idea. So we had somebody help us. And I think the lighting looks way better. But you can only see that if you're watching us on YouTube. Yeah, and fun facts. If you're ever recording, you can't have inner, like you can't have conflicting lights. Yeah, like temperatures. Right. So if you have a warm light, like a sunshine outside, it's warm. Yeah. And then you have like a bright, cool LED light. It's like going to make you look
horrible. Yes. Which we didn't know. Wow, fun fact. And we were doing that all the time. Yeah, we look like Donald and Ivanka Trump, you know, just like orangey fuzzy. No, it's more like family talking like him. Oh my gosh, stop it. Yeah, talk about controversial. Just bring that up. But hey, we want to invite you to join us on YouTube, like and subscribe. You know, I feel like such a YouTuber saying that a few other quick announcements. We have been having a blast in Patreon.
And about month and a half ago, we did a Patreon matchmaking event. And word on the street is, we are actually going to be bringing back our Patreon matchmaking event because it's so much fun. We basically take a bachelor in a bachelor and we set them up on blind dates with multiple people. And then they get to choose out of those multiple people who they want to get to know a little bit more. So we do this whole event. And you can you can apply to be match made if you're in Patreon
at the $5 level. I totally thought you were going to say word on the street is we have a success story and you're about to. Well, we've only been doing these matchmaking events in Patreon for a few months. Okay. So any success? I guess there is some things behind the scenes that are going well, but I, you know, they're trying to pace themselves. We actually we had an attendee message just saying, hey, by the way, if this match right didn't work out, I would I would love to get in touch.
So, but come on join the party at Patreon. You get a patreon.com forward slash heart of dating. And it's just a way that if you want to support this podcast, it really does help us. Right now we are also starting our School of Dating Mentorship program for the summer. So sadly, you can no longer join us because we just kicked it off last night for this round. But you can join us this fall. If you want to get on that on a list to be the first to know
and sign up with a discount, text the word first dibs to 214 2257772. Cool. Awesome. Um, wow, a summertime. We're doing some hot takes. So let's get into it, DJ. All right. So let's talk about the hot take, which is that you don't have to be instantly physically into the person that you are dating. Um, and I wasn't initially physically that into you, not because this is important, not because you are unattractive or because I thought you
were just so unattractive or quote ugly. Okay. No, I didn't think you were ugly. I didn't think you were unattractive. I wasn't physically attracted to you. Could you just say like, I just didn't think much of you. Yeah. I wasn't you weren't my type, physical type. Like we all have some sort of physical type of like, Oh, that would be our physical ideal type, right? Yeah. Almost everybody has. But I, but physically if we're talking about physically, like you physically saw me on a zoom
call. And even after like we could talk about our first FaceTime date. Yeah. And there was nothing that leaped out at you. Right. I wasn't if I had seen you in a room of people with the way you were specifically because of how you dressed and because you were younger, there were so many factors where like I would have been like, no, I probably wouldn't double take you had blue hair at the time. You had a black earring. You wore drop-crotch jeans and things that were mismatched. Yeah.
I wouldn't have like probably saw you in a room and been like, ooh, I'm really physically into that guy. Okay. So was not love at first sight for you? No. I mean, I don't really believe necessarily love at first sight at all. How would you define like love at first sight as far as like? I think it's more lust at first sight. Oh, really? Yeah. I think people are like, ooh, because you can't
physically love someone. Like love is a choice. Not a feeling. Love is developed through time. So when people say love at first sight, I feel like it's more lust at first sight or like there's a drawn, like it's some sort of spark in chemistry, which is like, which is very much often driven by like a physical lust in a sense. I could see that. Or physical just like drawn to the other person. It's almost like you're, oh, you know what? It's almost like you're attracted to a fantasy that
you're projecting over that person. Yeah. Based off like if it's a puzzle piece. Yeah. And you're like your soul, your mind, your emotions, your health, your spiritual faith, like you all complete a puzzle. It's like taking one piece of that puzzle, which is their looks. Yeah. How they physically came across. And then you're assuming that the other 99 pieces of that puzzle, like paint is perfect, beautiful portrait landscape. Exactly. Yeah. But that's all,
that's a projection. Totally. That's a fantasy. Yeah. It's a complete fantasy. So the hot take is that you don't necessarily need that crazy physical spark chemistry attraction, the beginning to end up with someone or to even date them. And I want to back up because why this is such a big deal is I did some posts late last year in 2023 on Instagram, some reels that went massively viral. Okay. How viral? Well, the biggest one was like 18 million, I think. And there were
if there were three main reels on this one, I think three, maybe four. Okay. But there was especially one that went really, really viral. So here were two of them. This was it was a video of us. And then it was a POV caption. The one that hit 18 million said POV, you don't find them initially attractive, but decide to push past your superficial type and end up totally in love. Okay. And the second one that was also pretty viral, POV, you dated someone you weren't initially
attracted to, but now you find them the most attractive person on the planet. Okay. So. So you called me ugly. No. Did I call you ugly? No. You didn't hear that. Oh my gosh. My wife just told the entire internet, internet that I'm ugly. Well, obviously I know you. Right. And I know if you say something like there's probably a little bit more meaning behind it. Yeah. I don't I don't think I would read that from a stranger. Yeah. And go straight to
you. She's saying he's ugly. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I would. But at first glance, if I was in my busy day blah, blah, blah, a lot of and that's what happened. A lot of people did hear that. And what did they hear? They heard, wow, she settled for a guy she thought she was ugly and she's blasting him on the entire internet. Yeah. That's in essence what a lot of people ended up hearing. What were the comments like? So yeah. In fact, thank you for saying that. I have
quite a few of them written down here. So let's just. Are you kept proceeds? No. You know, at first, I've never had a post go this viral and have such negative comments said about me. Okay. So it was definitely a moment where I had to stop looking at some of the comments because it just wasn't healthy for me. Do you think that you had a you had a nerve? Yeah. And here's the thing when something goes viral or when you're posting something that you know might be a little like
ruffle some feathers. I think where I what I do is I always take it back to the Lord and like, Lord, is this something you want me to post? Is this something that like like you stand by? Like does it glorify you? Yeah. Exactly. It's true. Is my intention, my heart, this message, something that glorifies you. And every time I did that and I brought it back to the Lord, it was a clear yes. It was like absolutely. And also because you and I were on the same page
about this. Yeah. You were like, you like wanted me to post those. Okay. Can we pause? Yeah. Because that was actually really profound. What would you say is the truth and the glorification of God and the message? Oh, the glorification of God was, hey, it's not just about this lustful, physical draw to begin with. It's so much more about godly character, godliness and who they are through time that will draw you to that person. And I think that in general, that's what the
Lord wants for us to do is really look at the heart of a person. I don't think that God, at the same breath, I don't think God desires for us to marry someone that we're not physically attracted to. Okay. So it's still important. It's still important. But the initial draw to somebody doesn't have to
be, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, because that's more worldly in my opinion. And that's not to say that that doesn't happen to Christian couples and they get married, you know, like that might happen to lots of couples where they think the person is really hot and sexy off the bat, right? Yeah, like that. I hear, I hear Christian testimonies of marriage that start off with that. Like, but I hear that they were, yeah, like the, oh my goodness. I heard there's a specific pastor
I'm thinking about. We've talked about. Yes. It was like very, very, I almost like explicit in the way who was talking about how attracted he was the first glance. And you're not saying that's wrong, but you're also not, but you're also saying that's not that only way. Like the song of songs, like he is very much physically drawn to his woman. And vice versa, you know, so it's, but they're about to get married. Right, right. They are, yeah, it's their wedding night, right? So
it's very important to be physically attracted to the person that you are marrying. Okay. But what I'm saying is there's physical, what people don't believe is that physical attraction can grow. I'm not saying all people, but the people on the internet that didn't like my post were like, oh my gosh, you think he's ugly. You should have never married him. You settled. They were like poor guy. He's really attractive. Let me read some of the comments, actually. Okay.
This one, you're not a 10 out of 10 either, especially at your age. Okay, just going to keep going. Bye. I would delete myself if my man posted this. You could have gone about your day without posting this. That's true. That's true. I would actually never get out of bed again if my life partner not only didn't find me attractive when we met, but also went around talking about it online. See that, that is, I love the honesty of that comment. Like that's a very honest comment. And I think
that encapsulates a lot of the attitudes. Yes. Because what is shattering in that comment? It's shattering because this person draws a lot of value from probably, it probably, every person has insecurities of some kind. And a lot of people have body insecurities, especially women. And so if you haven't conquered those and your partner, like verbally says, I wasn't that attracted to in the beginning. But now I am. If you are still pretty insecure in the way you see yourself,
that's going to feel pretty shatter. Totally. I mean, in idols, anything we say in our heart of hearts, I have to have that in order to truly be happy, satisfied to feel. I have to have a partner like this screams a Disney programming 101. They turn their lock eyes and they are just enthralled. And if that doesn't happen, then I don't want it. Right. Yeah, you're totally right. And that is the programming that we have that it's supposed to be the sparks and love at first
site and attraction at first site. And if it's not that, then oh, I don't want it. Well, what about this comment? And I'm so curious because we never talked. We actually didn't talk about this one. Imagine if he wrote this about her. Right. Could I do you think I could have posted like something like this? And imagine the hate you got for singing about a man. Do you feel like the game would have changed even more if I posted something about not being physically attracted to you? And now
I got over it in one second. I want to back up because and I think you need to verbally say this that I would have never posted this without getting your permission and making sure you were fully comfortable. Totally. A lot of people's assumption is that I didn't. Yeah. And I really don't care like what they think as far as did you get permission or not. I think the most important thing here is
that no, that is important. I think because it's honoring of your person. Yeah. If you're okay. Well, if you're going to be vulnerable and share something like this, which is vulnerable information, I like the comment, but also went around talking about it online. I would never be okay with that. And I understand, it's like you're sharing vulnerable information about yourself, about me. I have to be able to handle that kind of information. And I have to be okay with you
talking about it. Well, and actually, I remember what I was going to say a second ago, which is that the funny part about these posts was also that the majority of these posts wasn't actually focusing on you. It was actually calling myself out for being superficial. Yeah. Because I was drawn to some weird fantasy type that was very specific and very alienating. And that was superficial. You were taddling on yourself. Yeah, I was taddling because the things about you that I didn't
quote, like wasn't attracted to were superficial. Your hair and earring, their style, like, you know, which, which yes, has changed. You don't really have that same hair, that earring, the style that you used to. But I was calling myself out that I was superficial. And people are overlooking that totally. But people were projecting the pain and the fear that if their spouse ever said something like that to them, they could one never handle it. And two, they could not even
imagine that being shared publicly. Right. So the your question, if you were to share it about me, a, I would hope we discussed that beforehand. I think that is important. And B, it would, like, if we were secure in our relationship and I did not question ever that you were physically attracted to me, which I don't, I would be totally fine with it because like, I would understand, especially back in the day, like a few years ago, I wore tons of makeup. I had really,
like, different style as well. And it was just I, there's a lot of insecurity and why I dress that way. But if, if I looked that way when we started dating and then, you know, I started change, like, getting rid of all the layers and layers of makeup and my style became a little more neutral, I could see like, Hey, yeah, actually, yeah, I can totally see what you mean. Like, that style, the way I looked wasn't that great actually. And I would be totally okay with that. With you
saying, I wasn't really attracted to all the makeup you were wearing. Yeah. And you're over the top style and wearing heels every day. Like, that wasn't really my thing. Right. I mean, would be okay with that. Yeah, I know you would. And what's funny, you said that about my past. Yeah, I don't prefer it. But to be honest, though, I just think there's something about the attitude of types and attraction about it's just so consumptionary. Like, it's just so like what you do for me,
how you bring value to my life and what turns me on and what I like. Like, I think we've just the most healthy relationships have a complete respect for the other person's autonomy, style, the way they look. And they actually find a way to appreciate it too. Totally. I know, I hear what you're saying. Like, and you do still have that unique part of you. Yeah. Doing a lot of that because, but you know, part of a, you know, a healthy relationship is although I wish I could
wear a tropical shirt or a raccoon shirt every day. If we're going on date night tonight and we are in about five hours, there is a desire to want to please your spouse. In some way. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's a healthy, there is a healthy desire in that. Now, when that desire grows into an idol saying, pleasing you is the only thing I live for. And I can only be happy and satisfied if you're happy. Well, then you got a coat of pendant problem. Right. But there is a
healthy desire in the sense of wanting to please your spouse. Yeah. Right. Meaning I want to dress nice to you. Not because I care about how I come across to the people we're going to see you or their server because I want to come across as attractive towards you and show you that I care. Right. Because in you do care and you do appreciate when I put a little bit more effort into my hair. And I clip my beard and I smell not like, you know, I be out from the gym. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
You care about those things. And so as a loving partner, if that is something in my control and autonomy that I can do, that is easy. Why would I not want to do that? Totally. Right. All right, guys, quick break in today's episode because this episode is sponsored by Better Help. It's about halfway through the year. And I want to just check in. How has 2024 been going for you? Seriously, think about it. How has this year been going for you? Has it been really hard? Has it been really
amazing? Have you never really stopped to think about how it has been going? What's something you're really proud of? What's something you still really want to accomplish this year? Honestly, the past six months have been absolutely wild and crazy for JJ and I. Obviously, we had a baby and we moved across a country and so many other things in between. And one of the things that has been a lifesaver in our relationship is therapy. Okay. Y'all, we are such big fans of therapy and
that's why it's such a joy to be able to partner with Better Help. An amazing organization that offers virtual therapy. Everything with this therapy is entirely online, which means you can be from the comfort of your home doing sessions. There's really no excuse when you don't even have to drive anywhere to be able to do it. Okay. It's also great because you get a therapist that specifically match to you after you fill out a simple questionnaire. And if you don't like your therapist, you can
change your therapist at any time, which is also incredible. And we have so many people in our heart of dating community that have used Better Help and just love it. So if it's a middle of 2024 and you're like, man, things are coming up for me or I'm just not where I thought I would be. Then try therapy. Give it a shot. You can go ahead and visit BetterHelp.com slash HD to get 10% off your first month with Better Help. That's BetterHelp, B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com forward slash
HD to get 10% off your first month of therapy. Back to your question. If you posted that, I would feel comfortable with it. Okay. But like do you feel like the dynamic in general though? Like for male finding a female, not initially attractive? Like is that going to be more controversial? Like from a male or female perspective? Would that have been no more? It probably would be because I don't know if it'd be controversial. Well, yeah, I think it would be controversial. I would just
think that people were like, wow, that's so rare, you know? Like because the thing we hear all the time is like, oh guys need to be physically drawn at first glance. Yeah. I think it piss off a lot of men and women. Yeah. I do. Should we read some of the other comments? Sure. Okay. I hope you find someone who loves him. Wait, what? That's what someone said. Oh, I hope he finds someone who loves him. Oh, because you were not physically attracted to me.
That means I don't love him. Well, there you go. Because I posted that, it means I don't love you. Well, they're literally saying if you don't love them and how they look on first side, then you can't love them. You don't truly love them. Right. I have to find someone who's fascinated and obsessed with me from the first moment or else they don't actually love me. It also assumes that we all have a perfect lens while we're dating. We don't have anything
superficial driving. Yeah. Any consumeristic part of us that's driving the way we date. Like it assumes that we're just like dating perfectly and very purely. That is so funny. Well, you know what's funny is when this went viral and stuff, obviously like when it goes that viral, you pay more attention to it. Oh, God. You follow comments. I mean,
not only that, it was on TikTok and Twitter. I found out on my Twitter feed randomly. I was going through and they have like a Twitter kind of converted to like a for you algorithm like TikTok, like trending content that you don't follow pops up. Yeah. And I open Twitter and there is my wife on full blast in a video of us dancing, you know, on a golf course. I was like, that is
pretty funny. Like, well, and then there was a podcast made. So yeah, what I want to talk about, there's a podcast of the show showing chicks and when it was so funny is after bashing you for the first five, 10, 15 minutes, they actually stop and pause and say, you know what's ironic, though, is I have a couple of friends who actually need to hear this message. We were, I was like, wait, what? After, after, you know, they judged you and shamed you,
they said, you know what's funny? That was, I get what she was trying to say. Now that I think about it and talked about it. And I actually think there's a couple of my girlfriends who need to hear this because they've been overlooking great guys because they weren't physically feeling a spark at first. And they've been chasing a spark, which is also equal in finding guys typically with terrible character. Yeah. See, well, this is the funny thing and we can read some more of these
comments. But what I find is so funny is that a lot of people are into the show, Love is Blind. We've talked about it many times here. We like the show. It's, you know, obviously reality TV. But the reason why people like it, I feel like is because, and the premise of the show is that you don't see the person and you're trying to remove all of the superficial physical barriers and connect with somebody on an emotional level, on a personality level, right? On these different layers of attraction
outside of physical. And the, the whole experiment is you, you connect on those levels and the physical doesn't really matter that much that it will come if all those other things are there. And so, what you see is when somebody proposes and then they meet and see each other for the first time, if one of the people in that couple isn't as physically drawn and they're like, now it changes everything for them, you see that person on social media gets slammed. Like, oh my gosh, you're so
superficial. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like you see this over and over. It's like, oh my gosh, you can tell. Like, they're so superficial. Yeah. Like, look, they're such a good match, but they just can't get over the looks and you're just so superficial. They're so shallow. You're so shallow. Yeah. And I'm like, wait, but like literally, so I don't understand. That's why I don't understand why so many people hated this post because you were admitting. You were in line with the love is bind.
Well, you were, you were basically admitting I was shallow. I was shallow. And I'm so glad that I like of the shallowness. Yeah. But instead of being celebrated, people were like, how dare you talk about you being shallow? Yeah. When I'm like, yeah, that's funny. It's so funny. I'm like, well, maybe you should repost it and be like, I was a shallow in the beginning of a relationship and I'm so glad I got over it. I wonder how that would still be the same day. I'm telling you, people
want to see what they want to see. Well, the next comment is maybe feel it, but don't say it. I'm like, that is such a funny thing to say, right? Because if no one says this out loud, then we're all kind of just wandering in our shallowness with no encouragement or challenge to get out of it. Well, and I hear what this person is saying. They're saying, hey, they're assuming that again, it comes back to you or secure. We are secure. Well,
you are secure in yourself and we are secure in one. Can I give you an example? I was at the gym this morning. If there's a girl walking around and there are women there who wear sports brawl, so I'm very tight, tight pants. If I- And I'm pants like short shorts. Right. And I feel a temptation to look at them twice, three times, four times. Check them out in the corner of the mirror. If I feel that temptation, I feel that, and I never say it, especially
to a close friend, to a group of men I'm teaching or leading. That doesn't help anybody. Because the reality is that my closest friend, my mentor, a group of guys that happen to be leading, the likelihood that they're all feeling that same temptation or challenge is a thousand percent.
Well, so me not saying it out loud is not only going to hurt me because I'm internalizing and suppressing it and never confessing it and getting that kind of group of kind of building visibility, but they're also underserved and it's going to hurt them too because they're going to feel like they're the only ones who may be struggling with that. I completely agree. Now, where I think that people are having an issue with this is they're basically saying, I agree with you, you should share
it in a men's group. But maybe people even listening to this now would be like, well, you should never say that to your wife. You can't be honest with your wife about that. That's going to make her feel so insecure and unsafe and she can trust you. That's what they're... It's scary. It's vulnerable. But it's more so like, oh, that might flare up her insecurities and make her feel like, oh, what? You're looking at other girls. You can't say that. You can't be honest with...
And again, that's what comes back to what I'm saying is I would never have posted this if there was distrust between us. Yeah. And if... For example, if you had betrayed me in some way ever in our relationship... Like a small way or a big way? A big way. Like a girl. I caught you messaging a girl behind my back. I probably... And we were still recovering from that. I probably wouldn't be comfortable with you posting a post that you weren't initially attracted to me. Oh, I see
what you mean. Yeah. Totally. Oh my gosh. I'm feeling a bit insecure in our relationship and maybe a little insecure myself. And that you posted... Probably for my agency. Is going to highlight my insecurity. Yeah, I could see that. So I think the big reality here is also there's probably a lot of people that have never experienced being secure in themselves or secure in a relationship to be able to share those kinds of truthful things. Yeah. I would say absolutely. The biggest problem
in a lot of relationships is the inability to be deeply and truly honest with one another. Yeah. And I would say if you don't have that then you don't have true relationship. And I would also say there's probably times where let's say... Let's say I gained 50 pounds. And I know that you would love me no matter what. I mean, you did. I mean, you just got pregnant. Well, yeah, I did. I gained not 50. But yeah, I gained a good amount of weight. Thank you for saying that. Anyway,
well, let's... I now look like a punk. You didn't gain 50, but you gained double digit number of pounds. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for reminding me. Everybody does. Okay. Yeah. So I'm just saying, let's say I gained a lot of weight. And and I just... You weren't as physically drawn to me because of how much weight I had gained. Okay. But I was super insecure about it. And I was constantly beating up on myself because, oh my gosh,
I gained all this weight. Oh my gosh, I gained all this weight. That's probably not the time for you to be like, hey, yeah, I'm not really attracted to you physically. Right. But and therefore I don't love you. And yeah, exactly. So I'm just saying there's probably yes, a place and a time to share some of those intimate things. You have to use discretion. Yeah, I see that. That's what I'm saying. And again,
people are probably projecting a lot of people are commenting to me. It was like, oh my gosh, I don't fully feel secure in myself physically. So if my partner posted that about me, that would completely crush my world. Okay. So let me ask you a question. What do you do if you're not physically attracted to them? Like you and I love this thought. Like if you looked at me and a group and a small group and we didn't say anything, we didn't share any mind blowing,
you know, deeply mature answers on the verse we just read. I'm not saying I would have done that. I might have. You're saying you would have looked at me and kept going with your life. Probably. Yeah. And you would not have picked me out of a room. No. Okay. Yeah. So, but what you're saying is if you find yourself doing that and you're not physically attracted to someone, what should you do? Meaning if they are a godly day. Yeah. Right. So
I would say like, do you? Okay. So the thing about that is if you straight up just asked me on a day and I didn't know you at all. Yeah. After that night, I probably wouldn't necessarily be interested. Now, or I might say no. But if I or if I had a friend tell you right before I ask you out, hey, someone might be asking you out. Here's their name. I know them pretty well. And they are great to like they have great character. That would maybe be like, hey, I know they might not be your
physical cup of tea. But they're a really great person. And I and a really godly guy. And I think that they might be really good for you. If someone said that to me before, I'd be like, oh, yeah. I mean, and that comes back to why I did say yes to going out of date with you. Because I had the knocking cans vouch for you and they knew you and they were like, he's a really great guy. And you know, I stalked your Instagram and I thought I was one of the weirdest Instagrams
I've ever seen. Thank you. And but what I did appreciate about you was that I could tell you didn't really care what people thought about you. And I thought that was an awesome quality. And I could tell you were fun. And I thought that was also really cool. And so I was like, yeah, I mean, the blue hair. This is not really my jam. But I would say like I didn't I didn't also look at you and think, Oh, he's repulsive to look at like he's like, I would never, ever,
ever like even be remotely interested. So would you say as long as you don't find them repulsive and they have great godly character, you should say yes to go out on a date. Yeah. Because physical attraction, you think king grow. Oh, 100%. Yeah, I think, I think you can grow because I know one thing. It can absolutely fade.
Based off the emotional and spiritual maturity of that person. I mean, I think about what I found myself doing when I was the and the most unhealthy phases of my dating story was I find a girl who is quote strikingly beautiful. I would project that fantasy. I would fill in all the dots. They must be godly. They must be mature. They must be selfless. And then two or three weeks later, I would realize they were not that. So not only was I coping with the disappointment of
you know, they're letting down this totally unfair fantasy. But to like if we would ever fight or have a conflict and you know, that emotional, spiritual like, you know, not perfect person came out, I would realize how physically unattracted I would become in those moments. Totally. So it is malleable. Yeah, it is. So yes, I do think you should give them a shot. There are multiple different buckets of attraction. There's not just physical. There's emotional, spiritual,
intellectual personality and attraction can grow over time. So physical attraction, and all the other ones obviously too. Yeah. So I want to ask you, why do you think this post hit such a nerve? Yeah, I mean, I think one, you know, people were like shocked at how honest you were. I think that's probably rare. Which I think is a great thing for people to be challenged with. I mean, I still remember a year ago, we went to a conference on sexuality with Preston Sprinkle.
And there was a couple up there who he was able to admit to her pretty early on in their marriage that he was both same sex attracted and attracted to her. And just seeing them talk about it on a stage up there and how amazing it was to just see that deep soul level, sacred level of honesty was amazing. Yeah, I mean, it was so amazing to watch them both be able to handle their spouse be deeply honest. Yeah. And in person, I think relationship just absolutely platos when you can't be
honest with the other person. I think the same thing happens in our relationship with the Christ with our mentors and with our closest friends. Right. The second you feel like you have to withhold information. I don't feel like you have true relationship because, you know, there's a lot of reasons and fears why you might withhold. But you ultimately, what you ultimately believe is, if this person knows this information about me, then they truly won't accept me. Yeah.
They truly won't love me. So I think I think that's hard for people. And then I also think that, you know, like we talked about earlier, I think it I think I really had a nerve about the Disney. This person has to look at me and from the get go just absolutely physically enthralled, obsess, feel a spark. And if I don't have that, like that really hit a significant nerve for people
that their spouse might not find them initially attractive. Yeah. And that's different from not being finding them attractive at all, which I want to be like, you do you know how marriage was random for the past two thousand, three thousand years at all? It was arranged. There had nothing to do with physical tracking. And they made it work. Yeah. A lot of times. So I'm not saying it's not important.
I'm just saying, I think for some people to hear that their spouse physically might not be attracted them at first. Right. Is a really, really tough truth to swallow. Yeah. Because it's not what they want and truly desire. Yeah, which is part of that fairy tale. I think why this hits on a, it's just your nerve as well. I want to add is that people have a fear that they're going to end up with somebody that they're not physically attracted to. Yeah. There's definitely probably that
mixing in as well. Yeah. There's a fear of like, man, I'm just going to settle for somebody I'm not physically attracted to. Yeah. And people saw this post and these posts and they said she settled. She settled. She sold for a guy she's not physically. They thought that you settled for me. Yeah. That was some of the comments. They're like she said, so I should be offended. Yes. You should be you should be totally offended. Okay. So Kate, I'm not physically attracted to you as a guy or vice
versa. How long should I give it? Like you asked me out, I maybe reluctantly or 50, 50, math. I say, yes, I only say yes because my friend vouchers for your character or you seem like you have great character. How long should I wait to be able to say I am physically attracted? And what would qualify the physical attraction? Like I want to kiss them. I am okay holding their hand. Like it's not a chore for me. Or does it like close me out? I find them beautiful.
Like what is that physical attraction? Even what does it need to be for me to say I'm physically attracted to them? I mean, I don't think there's a one set rule to this. But I mean, I would at least give it 45 days of going on dates. I don't know how many dates. I'm not going to give it a specific number per se. But I would say at least four or five days. And when we talk about dating, we talk about it as a 16 and 90 days of getting to know someone before being in a relationship.
So before getting into a relationship with the person, I would say there has to be some sort of physical attraction that's growing towards this person. That's what I would encourage. Like I got into a relationship with you around that 90 day mark. And at that point, I was physically attracted to you. But it was in that first 30 days that I was like, I don't know. And so, but again,
how would you define I was physically attracted to you? Like, is it just if finding someone repulsive, which even then, I would have a problem with how that's even said, you know, based on the fact that we're like, but how would you define physical attraction? Like you, if I was married to them, I could be turned on and have sex with them. Right. Like, I wouldn't say a picture. Don't picture the sex with them. Okay. But like, does the idea of kissing them repulsed you or not? I mean,
that's probably a good basis. Okay. Like, I can tell you, there's definitely people that I've been like, no, like that idea of kissing them makes me not feel. Yeah. I mean, it is a weird thought to play with. But as I look back on my dating journey, I said no to women because I was quote, not physically attracted to them. Yeah. And they had great character recommendations. And I kind of regret that because if I now ask that question and hindsight, would I have been repulsive kissed someone?
I would have said, absolutely not. I definitely think they're somewhat attractive. I just don't know if they're quote attractive enough. That's right. Because the standard is way too high. And I would absolutely say my, my standard was very skewered. My standard is very, by porn. Yeah. By Instagram. Yeah. You know, I knew what a woman could look like. And I even had an idea of what a woman could physically not really even look like. But I was attracted to like an edited
version of a woman in your mind. Like so curvy, so symmetrical. Yeah. Yeah. Just like a disgusting, you know, like 10 out of 10 kind of level for you. Right. The interesting thing is that that's also different for every person. It is different. But you know, but I look back now. I'm like, man, my scale was so skewered. I would get so picky on dating app specifically. Like I would, I would, there might have been a per I think about a great example. There's a girl who
seems super galley amazing personality. Love football. And like her just smile was just somewhat off. Like it just wasn't a perfect smile. And I just wasn't that physically attracted to a Chris. I've something so small. Yeah. And I didn't end up going on dates with her. Yeah. Because of that. And I'm like, you idiot. Yeah. You absolutely fool. Yeah. And obviously I, this my story worked out at, you know, perfectly. But man, I just, I'm so disappointed in my past self
because I was just so shallow. Yeah. So shallow. And God, you admit to that. So that's the next question that people ask is, well, a lot of women do this, but men aren't willing. And what do you think about that as a guy? I mean, I think as a guy, first of all, I would say, this is so touchy. I do think men and women are different. I do think they're different. I think the way that we're hardwired is absolutely different. I don't think you can read the
Bible from Genesis forward and say men and women are similar. Well, there's similarities. I think there's similarities, but I don't think you can read it in any capacity and say, you know, they're very similar. I think we're so different. And that's a great thing. I just, and I think visually and attractiveness. And I do think there's truth in, I think there's truth in stereotypes. Now it's when you use a stereotype to judge a million different people and
you don't have any regard for any individual. Yeah. Like, you know, men are physically more attractive to women and just want sex more than anything. And if we have an entire day together and we're emotionally connected and we do all these things and we go to the farmer's market at the end of the day, we have sex. Well, the sex is the cupcake for me. And all the emotional bonding and quality time was the cherry on type. And for you, the emotional bonding and the quality time and the sweet
ness and the romance was the cupcake and the sex was the cherry on top. Yeah, that and we've heard that. Yeah. I don't that's a stereotype. And while I might be true for some and maybe generally true for men, I don't subscribe to that because that's not how I'm wired. Yeah. Right. When it comes to emotional unity, connection and sex, you know, so it is maybe more difficult for guys, but
it's not impossible. It's not impossible. I will say this though, I think without doing any research, without any having like brain science on my fingertips, my hypothesis would be this. Men probably need to have a little bit more physical attraction in the beginning, along with a spiritual emotional attraction to really pursue and be convinced that they want to choose a girl. And I think to that point, like there has to be a physical draw you're saying,
but like, I think maybe guys need to challenge the standard of that. Yeah, I think absolutely many to challenge what their scale of a physical attraction looks like. Yeah. How realistic that can be. They I think, you know, we weigh over glorify that spark of physical. I think we take that physical attraction and project a whole entire, you know, being of what
their emotional and spiritual maturity look like. And then when it's not that because they're so physically attractive, we can kind of still stick around because we're so physically attracted to the sex object, you know, of a girl, instead of who they really are. I think you have a lot of men, you know, marry women that they're deeply physically attracted to, but emotionally and spiritually hate. Yeah. And they're annoyed with. They're so, you know, and that's a little bit of a stereotype.
But I would just say like I just I think I anecdotally I've seen and heard and felt a lot less stories where the men were on X pretty mad. I think that's what I would, I know, I know it doesn't sound smart. Yeah, but the guys just like, well, physically she was mad, but her godly character and her emotionally maturedly really stuck out to me. So I asked her out like they were she was a really godly woman. Do you think that it's possible to change that?
I do think it's possible to say that. And I would just say the guy, what I would say is the guy probably just needs to physically have a little bit more of a I am physically attracted to them in the beginning than maybe the female. And maybe some of that is just like. Interesting. You know, because men are physically more wired like. Yeah, as far as attractive. Like there are there are neurological brain studies where men are more turned on physiologically by
sight than a female is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but it's just what the standard is for that guy. I think needs to be challenged. If you want to double-pick me that guy that like has been really influenced by pornography or has really crazy high standards. Yeah. And only you can set that out for yourself and or maybe some of your community. Like I hear people say all the time like, I'm only going to date this ethnicity. Like this is the only evidence that I'm attracted to. And I'm like,
okay, like, stop. Yeah, what I would say to that is for challenging your scale is this. If the world of printed media and like digital media didn't exist, what would your physical scale of media look like? Meaning like your only scale was what you've personally seen in real life for woman and woman. Yeah. Like that for me blows my mind and be like, oh, well, say I lived in the year of like 1800. There's no porn magazines running around. There's no
magazines of people mag. There's no such thing as the internet. I only had the physical compass of beauty of what I see in day to day real life experiences. Well, all of a sudden, a girl who I might have been mad about is very beautiful to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to change. Well, here's a testimonial from a dude. The woman I've loved the hardest slash most was somebody I never expected and wasn't attracted to at first. Her personality was electric, though. And I
quickly fell in love. I'm telling you guys, she became the most beautiful woman ever to me when I saw her for who she was. Amen. So good. I love it. You know, and it's a this whole mind. I was just like I was thinking if we read Proverbs 31 out loud right now and we had to take a tally for a remark. That is like the scripture right. Yeah. For beauty of a woman. I think it mentions physical beauty three times and all 30 of those verses physical beauty is mentioned three times.
Which means it's what like 34 mentions of character, spiritual, emotional maturity and qualities. Wow. Three times. That's it. That's 10%. Yeah. Of all of the rest of them. So this, somebody let this comment and actually think it goes to what you're saying. I definitely think physical attraction can grow over time, but there has to be some of it at the beginning. If it's absolutely absent, it doesn't matter how great the other qualities are, the physical
attraction will never be there. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say if it's if it's absolutely absent, meaning it's zero, it's going to be tough. If there's if you can't like look at the person say, yeah, objectively, this person's attractive, I'm just not that attracted to them. Like that's like for me, let's say Tim C. Shalamey. Okay. Actor. I don't know if people know who that is, but he's objectively attractive. I don't personally find him very attractive, but yeah, he's an
attractive person. Yeah. Right. So that's kind of what this person is saying. Yeah. I think probably a lot of it just comes down to this idea that their physical attraction makes me happy. And it's not it's not about I need to be I want to be physically attractive to them enough so that we can percure it to have children and enjoy a sex life together, which by the way, like when you see them that day, that's probably the best they're going to quote physically ever look like. Yeah, totally.
What do you guys think happens as we age? Yeah. Well, like how do you explain physical attraction at 50? 70. Yeah. Because of all the other elements are it's not just because they've kept in shape, it's because you have so much so many other things that you've bonded in. Yeah. But like your love for them does should not and cannot be based off physical attraction. Right. Exactly. Like but I see what this person is saying, which is what you're saying, especially for guys,
there has to be at least something there. Yeah. And I say that and I still fall back on like, but if I'm really being honest, I think there's for the main, there's got to be a little bit more semblance of physical attraction. There's got to be something there. Yeah. I think I hear that. I hear that. I think for most people, there should be something where you can say I find this person.
This is an attractive person, but I'm just not that attractive. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I say that too, by the way, like whether the full, like just ammunition that I want, I want women to be physically attracted to their spouse. I want both. I want both. Oh, wait, maybe this is the like the this coming at the beginning. Like we want godly marriages left and right that are physically attracted to one another and are joined the gift of sex. Yes.
However, more, but more importantly, we want people marrying each other because of their godliness and their character. Yes. Not because of exclusive physical attraction. Because if it's physical attraction, and that is what's most important, you are, you are trying to marry a sex object, not a person. And you're marrying someone for what they can do for you sexually and not who they are in their heart and their character. So a girl commented that she did try to be with somebody
that she wasn't attracted to. And all of her pastors said in marriage, it'll get better. And she said, I tried it and I almost made the biggest mistake of my life. Please don't promote this because it could have ruined my life seeing a video like this. Wow. So I got that comment and I was like, oh my goodness. Now that goes back to the fact that we do not promote marrying somebody
that at the end of the day, you are not physically into like what we just said earlier. I don't even think you should be in a full blown exclusive relationship with somebody you have zero physical attraction. So you're saying not only on the day of the wedding, if you can't say I'm physically attracted to you, you should not get married. You're saying after 45 to 90 days, they want to be in a relationship with you and you're still not physically attracted to them, you should say now.
I would. And I would, I would say, you know, if everything else is there, you could challenge your heart and maybe God will work on it. And maybe you're going to like over time be attracted physically to that person, but I would end it then. Yeah. Until the Lord works on that because it's just not fair to the other person. And you definitely should not get married to somebody where there is no physical attraction or like 1%. Yeah. You know, I would say I probably would have
to agree with you. And I think what I would probably, you know, ask us like, well, what's your heart in the right place? But regardless of it was or was not, I would say you should not get it. Like if your heart was in the right place and you're saying that right, say that person was actually living in a very shallow superficial judgment of attraction. Yeah. I would say yeah, you actually shouldn't get married. You're actually right in both instances. Right.
You know, even if your heart was in the right place, from the wrong place, you should not get married. Because you that is going to be a tough one. Totally. All right, we're going to end on this. This is a great comment before online dating people often became friends first, the bond and the quality time would lead to attraction. Now people go on a date with a stranger to see if there's
chemistry. While I agree that physical attraction is key and needs to be there before a long term relationship is considered, I think the new dating culture doesn't allow enough time for an intimate connection to ignite. It's not always fireworks right out the gate. At least give it a few weeks and do interesting things together, not just coffee and dinner. Come up with little adventures and they balk at that. Well, then you'll know it's not for you anyway without putting all of the focus
just on chemistry. Summed it all up in that comment. Thank you. The Heart of Dating podcast is created by Kate and JJ Tomlin. Shout out to our epic audio and video editor Scott Carro. We have an amazing heart of dating team who helps bring the show to each week. I want to shout out Kelsey Napier, our Heart of Dating digital marketing coordinator and Elena Gibson, our brand and community manager. We couldn't do it without them.
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