I don't care at all to talk about what I'm struggling with or what I used to struggle with, what's what I'm struggling with now, my weaknesses, because one, it keeps me accountable to it reminds me daily that I need just they connected to my savior. And three, hopefully it encourages other people and maybe gives them the courage to say, you know what, I don't want to live in the dark either.
What's up fam, this is JJ with the Mini Man-sode Friday. We got a recurring guest today, Dave Willis, without the wifey, Ashley, you guys might have seen them on Instagram, they're with Naked Marriage and Exo Marriage. I love Dave so much, I hope you guys enjoy the episode as much as I did. Dave might be one of the funniest guests that we've ever had on.
He really feels like a big brother to me, he is so vulnerable, it really challenges me as a man to step out and vulnerability with my wife, with my friends, and with my community group all around me. So, love you guys, have a wonderful day, and this is the Heart of Dating podcast. Let's go! I love Dave! And Kate is making a nice, what is it, intro? I love Dave, he's the best!
We love Dave too, so there you go, I guess Kate is joining this intro for a Mini Man-sode Friday, which she didn't get the memo to, love you guys. What's up fam, I got my man, Dave in the house, Dave, how's it going? JJ, man, I am honored to be here, I saw that you listed this as BFF recording, and that just wore my heart, because for you to let an old guy like me be cool enough to hang out with JJ, just, it just warms my heart.
Well, this is a first of all, I feel just as honored, and Dave, when he replied to me, was just like, honestly, don't even have to record it, I give file, you just want to hold it now, where am I countering? And we talk, I'm cool with that too. Oh, fine, yeah, and others can listen in if they want, it's fine. And, well, this is actually your second time, your repeat guest. So, I'm doubly honored.
Yeah, well, we don't know if it was because of your wife, you know, and how wise, awesome, and smart she was, so today's kind of a test, you know, my wife is the reason why I get almost any invitation. It's like she gets invited somewhere and they're like, you can have a plus one, and then I just sort of tag along. So, this is one of the rare times I'm invited somewhere without her, I feel, I feel make it.
I know it feels weird, I hate it, same thing for me, my wife, she gets all the invites and when always compliments me, and then they look over, I mean, they're like, oh, and there's JJT. Hey, you're a star, you are a star. I appreciate that. In every way. I appreciate that. Well, I really do look up to you, the reason why I asked you to do this episode today is, I love following your content.
I think even for single, you guys, you and Ashley would be a wonderful couple to follow just because I think it's really nice to have an idea of what healthy marriage looks like, right? And that gonna helps form and shape our search as singles, and I just cannot recommend you guys an exo and make a marriage love.
I personally love listening to you guys, and we'll plug you guys at the end of the episode, but one thing that you do really well, and what we'll talk about in just a moment is vulnerability. And just your, you're so vulnerable publicly with your guys's life, with your emotions and with your feelings and where you might have messed up in the past and what you struggle with.
As far as just like respect from me and I told you on the prequel, and I'll tell you again now for everyone, I just, I respect you so freaking much, especially in a world like today. Thank you. You are, you are too kind. I mean, I, I blow it all the time. I mean, I blow it. Even the first time we met in person, I picked the restaurant. I sent you the GPS coordinates to the restaurant. I said, now there are two of the same restaurant in this town.
So go to this one, and I sent you the actual address. And then I went to the other one and wait, after all that, I sent you a cross down. And then even though it was my mistake, you guys drove to me. Like, I don't deserve, I don't deserve you. You're just too good for me. Like, you build up me up is what I'm saying, and I'm very, very flattered. But in big ways and in small ways, I blow it all the time. Well, as someone who blows it twice as worse and makes even dumber mistakes and decisions.
Hey, man, I look at you with even more respects because you really are graceful. And I love being with you. And I'm always back around. I can hype you up or you can hype yourself up. You know, as far as just like who you are, what you do. Kids, you know, being an awesome dad, being an awesome speaker, being an awesome podcast. Like, you want to go any little quick and just. I mean, we got four boys.
Our youngest turns nine years old today. Today is his birthday. And so we've got a nine year old all the way up till. And so we're going to be going to be a couple of years from college who will turn 19 in a few months. And so there's about a 10 year gap between oldest and youngest. Ashley and I've been married for man. It's 22 years. It'll be 23 years May 19th that we've been married. So that's a long time. You know, that's that's a long way. I went by quick.
Yeah, went by real quick. It really did. I mean, it's we talk about it like I almost feel like we've had. And so we've had a lot of different marriages so far all to each other. But like because of just the seasons of life and how different life can look in each season. And with with the moves that we've made and with, you know, with kids and different, different jobs and different things we were doing. Life can look drastically different. But I love that we've done it all together.
And I'm I'm excited for the next five marriages with each other. It's it's been a fun ride. I've been married to like 13 different women and all their names are Kathy. Yeah, of course of their marriage. Well, and you forgot somebody, right? There's there's one little person who you forgot about as well. Cheachy in your in your crew. Cheachy. Yeah, our little Chawini. She is half Chihuahua, half docks and all warrior, all 10 pounds of her.
She just she sits in the window most of the day and just goes crazy barking at UPS drivers and dogs walking by. And then that wears her out and then she just naps and cuddles the rest of the day. So she's got a pretty easy life. I saw the funniest meme the other day. I thought of T.T. It was just like this dog standing on two legs with like a AK 47 and a half. Yeah, how my dog views himself.
It's it's a good thing she's not armed. Let's just she's all talked to she barks and barks when there's like a window between her and something. But as soon as she gets face to face with somebody, she just kind of flops on her back. I mean, she's she's all tall. It's always the little ones, man. I feel like if I could summarize myself as a dog, I'd be like Cheachy all all bark. And then when my wife gets home, I just kind of roll over almost. Run my belly.
No. Well, okay. So today, you know, I think and I just said it, you're so you're so vulnerable. When you speak specifically on your podcast and platform, my assumption was, you know, for you to be that vulnerable. And I'm sure you have deep reasons why I'm sure you even you're more vulnerable behind closed doors. I've experienced that two degree right in our limited limited time together and it was limited because you sent me the wrong address and we're not related.
But no, no, but even in our limited time, I was like, man, you are more vulnerable than most men I've ever met. And you're also not maybe that traditional guy who's able to talk about your emotions and feelings and weaknesses in such a vulnerable way. Have you always been that way or is that just something that you like woke up one day or like I'm going to be so vulnerable.
That's a great question. Yeah, that really really insightful question. I don't think I've ever thought about it that way, but thinking about it now, I would say some of the vulnerability is it's a response to how it went really badly the times in my life that I tried to hide things.
And so like a lot of the chaos and the frustration and the pain that that I have caused in life has happened from trying to keep secrets instead of bringing it out into the light because I wanted to be perceived a certain way or I wanted, you know, to people to not find out about some struggle or sin that I had. Secret struggle with pornography for years from my teenage years into early adulthood into early in our marriage, which we talk about a lot on our podcast.
So, you know, I want to hijack the episode talking all about porn, but I know a lot of the guys listening are struggling with that now. And just want to say, hey, you know, you're not alone, but you've got to bring it out into the light because until you admit that it's a sin admit, you know, the God's right that when Jesus said to look with lust is committed to altering your heart. And then bring it out into light and get accountability.
It's going to it's going to sabotage you just like a cancerous tumor inside of you, it grows and metastasizes until you cut it out until you get it out. And I feel like the way God wired us up any form of secrecy that we're keeping inside of us, it's kind of like that cancerous tumor. It's not meant to stay inside of us. And if we keep it there, it's going to grow, it's going to it's going to get worse. And yet cutting it out can feel painful and scary, but it's also the only way to get healing.
And so I've learned that the hard way a few times in my life. And so now, now I just don't want to leave any room for those tumors to take root. So if I'm struggling with something, I want to talk about it openly with Ashley and with trusted friends, but also on the broader and in the broader sense, you know, we like you said, we try to be very vulnerable on our podcast and from the stage, because, you know, frankly, what we've learned is nobody really cares about
about listening to somebody who they perceive has it all together and has never made a mistake or had a struggle. They just kind of roll their eyes and they're like, man, I can't relate to these people. And this isn't for real anyway. But when you're honest about your struggles, when you're honest to say, look, this is what I used to struggle with. This is what I'm struggling with now.
This is what that looks like. This is how we're working through that. And people lean in and they're like, tell me more. And it gives you credibility with folks because they know that you're you're being real. And it challenges them to be real and to listen to what you have to say.
And so with with the platform we have, you know, we we realize it's it's temporary like all things in life and we don't own it. You know, we're just temporary stewards of it. And we want to be good stewards of it. And so our prayers like Lord for as long as you let us speak to people, help us to be real, help us to be honest.
And we want you Jesus to be the star, not us. We want because of what we're saying and doing people to fall more in love with you and more in love with their spouse and their families to be blessed and they can for they can forget our names. That's that's totally fine. We just want to be faithful with this as long as you give that to us. And then even long after we're, you know, on a stage and nobody wants to listen to our podcast anymore and all that.
But we want to with each other the relationships that matter most, we want to continue to model that with our kids, our grandkids someday with each other, of course, because it's just the way that God designed us to live. And I think we're living in a world now where people know all these these kind of facts about our life because of social media, because we can curate the story, the narrative through filtered pictures and through what we want people to know.
And so we could have a thousand friends that know stuff about us and yet we might have zero people that actually know us. And so we're just trying to flip that script a little bit and say listen, it's not about building a platform or more and more people know what you had for breakfast. It's about having some community and having healthy relationships with with your core group.
Where there are people that can call you out on things that that love you, but that they're not going to let you get away with junk and and you know you can sharpen each other and encourage each other and pray for each other specifically like really knowing what's going on. And so we're trying to model that because it keeps us accountable to do those things, but also because I just think all of us need that God wired us up to need it.
And we live in a time where it's it's more difficult than ever to to live with real vulnerability. Totally. Now for you, you I love that you say I wasn't always this way. Right, which tells me that okay, something happened. Yeah.
Where would you say you know you kind of hit that point where like man, I can't go on living hiding, not confessing, not being vulnerable like can you walk me through that point where you're just like, because I think that's the scariest point right as a man who's also hidden sin, yeah, right addictions and things from friendships from my wife, you know, at times like there's always that point where it's like jumping off the the diving board.
What did that look like for you and what was like that. I got to tell someone I got I got to get rid of this. Yeah, that's a great question too. I would say for me a lot of the a lot of the big transitions for me happened happened in the college years and then the early years of marriage, because I got married right after college and in college, I would say like I went to school when I went to school.
I went with it was like I was confident and insecure at the same time, I think I was insecure in some ways because I come from this family that was full of love and I felt very loved and accepted for who I was. But you know, the family, my dad, my whole dad's side of the family, they were all these like superstar athletes, huge muscular guys that that you know were just elite athletes, my brothers were both like a head taller than me and like great athletes and that I just that wasn't my thing.
I mean, I was I worked out and you know, I've gotten in pretty good shape, but I just wasn't that you know, they were they just had a different build than I had. Well, if that's kind of like what what men and our family are about, I feel like well, do I even measure up because I don't really, I don't look like that. I'm like good at those things.
And so like I you know, I had some insecurities there because I was just trying to figure out like, well, what is it that I do like what is it that that I'm I'm made to do and I wasn't really sure what that was. So I I felt like you high school, you know, I had good friends and I could be outgoing at times, but I was I was dealing with a lot of insecurity. And in college, I started coming out of my shell more and really finding things where I could thrive and and leaning into my strengths.
At first, I was doing that and it was it was kind of you know connected to my faith, but then I think looking back, there was a real sort of just worldly pride prideful part of me that started to. I don't know started to hijack things and it's taken some of that attention I was getting and I wanted to.
I don't know I just wanted to leverage it selfishly and my relationships started to get unhealthy, you know, I'd always had like you know really strict kind of firm boundaries in dating and I found myself, you know, over a stretch of time, making, making a lot of compromises in dating relationships and not, you know, not truly, you know, respecting and protecting and adoring.
You know, the the women that I was in relationship with the way that God calls us to do and I don't know, I mean, I realized that I was I went from a person that I always thought I was the kind of person that would always just help people that because of kind of the selfish, the selfish path that I've gotten on, you know, I had the secret problem with porn at the time too, which was sort of kind of fueling that brokenness and selfishness.
But I was like I was hurting people like I was I was hurting people and I thought like how how did I get here like how did I get to this place where I'm unhealthy and and I'm just I don't know I'm not in a healthy place and and the people that I'm in relationship with they're not benefiting from, you know, from that at all. I was like the I because I've been there too. It's like I'm only out for JJ if I'm being honest at the end of the day. I'm only out for me.
And the thing about it is all of us can get there quick, but when we're only out for ourselves, we think that it's going to it's going to make it's going to make things good for us, even if other people get hurt, but we get hurt because we're just not wired to live that way. And that's the reason why I'm not in the business hurts the selfish person more than it hurts anybody else.
And in that season of selfishness like I realized like man, I'm miserable like I'm just I'm not happy whatever I try to do to make me, you know, happy to feed kind of the selfishness more. Yeah, and so I just realized man, I don't I just don't want to live this way like I just don't want to I don't want to live this I know I knew better too like I knew I knew that God had a better path for me, but I just made I just kind of made all these little compromises in different parts of my life.
Thinking like well, this isn't that big a deal and that leads to another compromise and well, that isn't that totally that big a deal either and next thing I know I'm just sort of living I'm living justifying a lot of things that I just know aren't God's best and and it was exhausting and I was just sort of tired I was tired of it and.
So I'd really tried to get I tried to recommit to God say look Lord, you know, I just want to I want to do things right I want to do relationships right even if it means I'm just not in one because I would much rather not be in a relationship and do it the wrong way and wound myself for somebody else.
I just I just want to do it I want to do things your way whatever that looks like and it was this was now coming into my junior year of college and I had plan to study abroad it was my dream my goal I wasn't going to go to England and I was accepted into this program and I was like yes this is it you know I'm going to go have this amazing adventure and I really just felt like God saying like no I know that's what you think you want but I got something better for you I mean he didn't say it out.
I mean he didn't say it out loud I've never heard God speak I've never like walked up on a burning bush or anything but I just had this sense that he was saying you got to trust me on this day don't go I got something better for you and I just couldn't get peace around going and so I called and I turned down the opportunity which I I was really frustrated about
and I was so I just kind of frustrated like Lord what's this about but then on that first day of my junior year of the year I wasn't even supposed to be in the country. In walks Ashley to the very first class and I was just like hello thank you Lord thank you Lord for holding me back and in really I mean I would say you know Jesus and Ashley are the reasons for like every every good thing in my life.
Jesus for saving me and for of course all that he does and then Ashley for for the way that she loves me and the way that she helps me to be a better man just by the way that she lives and by who she is. It really did you know kind of kind of help me I wanted to be a better man like for her I wanted to be the kind I wanted to be the man that I knew I could be to earn her respect and to earn her you know her trust.
And so you know we you know we we started we started off on our relationship and things were you know great we did things the right way. I had you know pretty much stayed away from from porn you know early in our marriage like a year and I did fall back into it and that's when it all came out that this had been a struggle and we had to work through that. But you know we had a period really of you know several years through like dating and early part of our marriage where.
We were doing things the right way still not perfect but. And then when I fell back into that porn it was just a reminder that like no I don't want to I never want to go back here I never want to be that guy that's keeping the secrets because again instantly it was that self low thing again and it was. You know I don't want to go back into that pit I I know how I want to live and this isn't it and so.
That working through that together was I was just committed that like I never want to keep secrets again I just I just now if Ashley was maybe not the safe like in jealous wonderful woman right that she is right do you think it so what have been possible for you to be you know vulnerable and
you know I'm just going to be fast or do you think it would have well no like I didn't have this is the again that why she she and Jesus are the heroes of this story like I didn't have the courage to confess see like I was so wrapped up in just that that secrecy mindset that I was convinced like nothing like Ashley can never know.
Great yeah I'm just take this to the grave is just going to be my issue I'm going to deal with this and it was eating me up but I thought well that's just my punishment is just going to eat me up and and then she stumbled upon it you know thankfully it was like the worst day and the best day all at once this was even long before smart phones this was back in the dark ages but on the big
clunky desktop computer we had way can we kind of make the sound yeah that it's a sound yeah that you know a a a well you know that though I guess the one positive thing about about you know looking at stuff stuff you weren't supposed to look at back then as opposed to now is it felt like it took like 30 minutes for like one one image to download so it was like at least it was speed bumps along the way but she found where I had been where I had been looking
at and it was devastating to her I mean it was shocking to her and then she felt all this insecurity like it might not enough you know why is he doing this and it it has nothing to do with with her of course just like if you're you know listening and maybe your woman listening and you've you've had a husband or a boyfriend do this you like what's wrong with me it's it's never one person sin is never somebody else's fall this was totally sin issue in in me and even if you're
a woman listening and you're you're struggling with with porn I mean all of us have to take responsibility for our own actions and this was a sin that I'd let take root in me and anytime you let it sin take root and you don't deal with it just like that cancerous tumor it's going to keep growing and I felt like working through that and seeing the the pain the unnecessary pain that I inflicted on on
Ashley through that sin and keeping it a secret I just thought I never ever want to create space for this to ever happen again in any part of my life you know not just the porn issue but in any part because it's in the dark places that that we harm ourselves and others but if we live in the light the Bible says we're children of the light you know meaning like let's let's not keep let's not like it live with all these secrets it's
exhausting let's Jesus already paid the price for it he let him shine the light into every dark corner of our lives and just live freedom because he's already he's already set us free from he's already forgiven us once we we go to him and ask and once you've experienced living that way it's like man I just I never want to go back and so now like Paul said I'll boast about my weakness because in my weakness
I'm strong and it makes it makes Jesus the star so now like I don't I don't care at all to like talk about what I'm struggling with or what I used to struggle with what's what I'm struggling with now my weaknesses because one it keeps me accountable to it reminds me daily that I need just they connected to my savior and then I think I just want to do that. savior and three, hopefully it encourages other people and maybe gives them the courage to say,
you know what, I don't want to live, I don't want to live in the dark either. You know, I want to come to the light too. Yeah. Well, you know, I just found this out. I was listening to like, you know, the master of vulnerability from the secular point of view, which is probably Brunei Brown. And she's really smart. I just, she's so, she's, everybody has a mark over part of their name. You know, they're smart. She makes that over one of her. Yeah, that's such a good point. Should I,
should we add something to our name? We should like J J with like a little, yeah, or like the Danish, you know, like strike through, through my, yeah, dots above something. Yeah, that's why you use a big word when you're talking about cancer, it's sort of with the M, you know, the test the size. It's like when it's like when a cat, I was like, that's a smart word. Well, you know, my mom's a nurse, I probably heard it from her, but like when it, when a tumor isn't contained
anymore, it's like the cancer leaks out to other things. Yeah, that's what that is. And that's what sin does. It never stays in the, in the little box we create for it. Amen. Well, okay. So check this out. The Latin root word of courage actually means this blew my mind to speak one's mind by telling all one's heart. Wow. So think about like the traditional definition of we have a courage today, you know, you think about the tin man, right, or the lion and, you know, having courage. And it's like
it's actually to speak one's mind by telling all one's heart, which is crazy. It's actually referring to speaking and telling and talking of all of my heart, right. And so when I think about the steps that you just listen, I'm like, it just takes such immense courage. And, and that's why I think, you know, in 10 Corinthians 12, it says, my grace is sufficient for you. My power has made perfect and weakness. Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly in my weakness so that the power
of Christ may rest upon me. I'm like, man, it's crazy because I feel like that courage is fueled by grace. And grace, I heard a great quote from a cloud, Dr. Cloud and Dr. Townsend the other day, it's grace begins where you admit your powerlessness. Yeah, that's good. Grace, so I'm like, man, if I'm a guy and I can say, you know what, I'm actually powerless to confess this because I've tried to write burden it and shoulder it this whole time. And I just,
I cannot work up that quote courage. And then I said, but you know what, I'm powerless to talk about this and such a demonstrative big clear way. But God's grace actually can fuel that courage. Well, yeah. And then I can get to a place where I can talk about and actually boast. I suck at physical boundaries. I stink. And not I was in the, you know, I work out every single day. And, you know, there's women right in form fitting yoga pants everywhere I go. The more I can say,
you know, JJ is actually horrible at averting his eyes and not double glancing and going. But, but the more I can admit that and say, yes, but Jesus is magnified in his power. Yeah, the better. So true. But yeah, but my, I guess my question is, you know, as far as like the confession vulnerability, do you feel like there's a gender stereotype? Like, is there specifically for men, a harder reason for us to share? And the word I'd probably introduce here is,
does shame have a different effect on men? When it comes to right kind of exposing and talking about ourselves, I think about because you're a married man, right? And most of the conversation here is for, you know, marriage. But it's also, you know, for men's groups, right? And male friendship, right? And I think it's like, I think it's hard to share some of my wife. I think it's twice as hard sometimes for me to share with a guy best friend sometimes. Yeah, I see that. I, that's a great
point. Before I answer that, I want to give you one, one other trick that could help you to not not lust at the gym with the yoga pants. Yeah. I'm going to send you a picture of me wearing yoga pants. And it will be so haunting that like every time you even think about yoga pants, you instead of being tempted, you'll feel nauseous. And I would do that for you, like just to help you with your struggle as a brother. So yeah. So just be watching man. I, if you want, if you do that,
I'll print it out. I have it on my card dashboard. I'll put it on my mirror. You'll never lust. You'll be immune. You'll be immune to lust. I'll make it my phone background. Take what you probably have. Seriously, she was that you're both sure this man and yoga pants with an abnormal hair growth. But I don't want to sidestep the very important question.
Because I do think that I feel like for men, I think that most of us were raised in a way culturally and our families where there was this mindset of like, no, we don't express emotion. And we don't that emotion, first off, like starting with the emotion part, that emotion equals weakness, right? Like we, I can't show emotion because that means I'm showing weakness where women have always, not always, but they tend to be more comfortable demonstrating emotion as a way to,
to just show how they're feeling. And we, as men often get like intimidated or uncomfortable when our wife is showing any kind of emotion because it's like, I don't know what to do with that. I don't want to do that. And really, in a lot of ways, they're showing more strength in that that like I can demonstrate that I have a courage. That's a courage thing like you said. It's speaking my whole heart, my whole mind, in these displaying that even, whereas as with guys,
I don't think we like that definition of courage. We like courage. Like, let me, give me a sword and let me chase off a bear or something. Actually, most of us don't want to do that,
either. But yeah, it's like brave heart. Yeah, we want that kind of courage. But, but yeah, I think that the vulnerability thing, man to man, is something that is, it's so, it's so missing because I think that whether it's like the way we were taught or the way that we're wired, most of us have this mindset that if I want to earn other men's respect, then the only way that I can do that is to show that I'm totally in control at all times. And that,
yeah, I don't struggle because guys who struggle must be weak and they're not in control. And they're not to be respected. And of course, everybody struggles. But we feel like we've got to, we've got to puff ourselves up and we have to put on this mask around other men or maybe even, you know, around our wives, our girlfriends, around the women in our lives because we think,
no, no, the only way to be respected is to show no weakness. And that's just not true. I mean, I think real respect comes from real vulnerability of having the courage to say, I'm growing up. But this is an area right now where I'm, I'm really struggling and I need, I need some, some, some men that I can trust to come alongside me and pray with me through this to hold me accountable
in this area to encourage me in this area to teach me what they've learned in this area. And until we can have real conversations like that, we're all going to just stay stuck, you know? Yeah, I would say, you know, I just remember, I'm like, as you say that, I'm like, I really do look back over my life and I say, honestly, the strongest men I've ever been around are the most vulnerable men I've ever been around. You know, and I think that's what I probably, you know,
what I say, I admire in you. And it's like when I, when I hear you and I see you, and what's funny and one thing I actually enjoy about you is, you know, you live in Augusta, Georgia, and you don't golf. You know, it's like you live in the probably the the biggest golf capital of the world. I know the world. And you don't, and you know, you're not like a football guy, right? And you, I think you majored in theaters, that right? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did.
It was a communication degree, but it had like a lot of theater is part of it. And yeah, and, well, I said, I came out of that still, still heterosexual. So I'm not sure, I'm not sure if I wasn't studying hard enough or like, I love football. I love watching football. I'm just not like, I don't do fantasy football because I'm like, I don't want to keep up with all that. And I don't, yeah, I like sports. I like stuff, you know, I like a lot of stuff that other guys like, but I'm just,
I don't want to do something just because it's what people are doing. And like, golf, and all my friends, and I've played before. It's not like I'm anti-golf, but I'm just like, you know, it's just not my thing. It takes so much time and it takes so much money. And I just, I'd rather do something else. Maybe four hours. Most maybe in retirement, right? But, I would say it like, you know, the one thing I've always appreciated is you're in, you're probably
not that stereotypical guy in that many ways. But when I see you walking that vulnerability, I'm like, I actually love the fact that because I even think it takes confidence, right? confidence. And who got created Dave to be? And you love walking in that, you know, and you're not trying to be some stereotypical guy. I like another great example that really resonated with me is, you're like, I'm actually not the horn dog at nine o'clock at night who's like, there's always
room for dessert. You're like, you know, I'm really resonated with like, no, if emotionally, actually, and I are not in a good place, I'm actually the one who's like, I don't prefer to maybe have sex. Like I would rather emotionally reconcile and be connected before. I'm like, dude, that that's actually me, you know, like as well. So it's not your prototypical right, like male, you know, appetite. That's just like anytime, any place. I used to think I was that and then I got
married. I'm like, I'm not. But, um, yeah, you know, I do think as I look back over the men and you specifically and other men, I'm better around them. Like when I started surrounding myself and being in fellowship and men's groups, men's ministries, men's weekends where I got to see the big buff guy right when he's 250 pounds jacks. He had big beard, big burly man. And he's crying in front of me talking about, right, his emotions and his feelings. I just, those are the memories I look back
that are just seared into my consciousness of man, that is true courage. That is true strength. And it actually challenges me. It's like, I walk away and it's like, I want that. You know, like, I yearn for that kind of vulnerability in myself. Do you feel like do you experience that with
other men? And that was something that you grew in? Yeah, I do think that it's something that I've I've grown in and that I, um, that I'm still growing in, you know, and and and sometimes like, I think I'm the one that will that'll get like too vulnerable, too fast and a group of guys in a way that I'm not trying to do it to to pressure somebody else to do it. But I'm just trying to go first to say, it's okay, right? It's okay. Like I was, I was at this min's retreat, this like,
you know, fishing retreat and all these these manly dudes. This is like a year or two ago. And I only knew a couple of the guys there. But, you know, we're getting to know each other and, and one night we were sitting around this big table and they're like, hey, let's, you know, like, I forget how they teed it off. But like talk about, you know, what's going on or whatever. And so I shared, I shared some like, really vulnerable stuff. Like I like went first, I think,
or maybe second, but I shared, you know, some really get a vulnerable stuff. And, um, and I could tell pretty quickly that like a lot of the guys there just, they were not ready to share that kind of stuff, you know, so that like they were deep sea fishing, man. Yeah, man, like, dude, just let's just, let's just, let's just fish and, you know, sit on some beer and, and, and talk about football and stuff. And I'm like, I'm like, you know, that's, that's all fine too.
But like, like, let's talk about real stuff. Um, and so I had a guy come up to me afterwards. Because after I said it, like somebody who ever went next, like kind of totally changed direction and like, you know, brought it, brought it out of that. But I had a guy come up to me afterwards and he was just like, man, he said, thank you. Thank you for having the courage to just share something real. Um, he said, I'm sorry that like, I know a lot of guys there need, need that.
They need a safe place to do that. And, and I'm sorry that that apparently, you know, some of the guys there didn't and weren't comfortable with it going that way. But, uh, just know that like, like, what you do is courageous and I, and I appreciate it. And so I mean, I didn't need that, but I, I, I, I appreciate it. I didn't do it for any kind of like,
that's on the back or whatever. I just, I want, I'm like, life's too short. Life's too short to just go through it and not ever talk about the real stuff, you know, I don't want to get to the end of my life and all my conversations were just about dumb stuff that is surface. It's like, let's, yeah. Let's talk about stuff that matters, you know, yeah. I mean, I'll talk about whatever to, but, I don't want all my conversations to just be, be surface level stuff, you know, life's,
life's too short. Totally. I mean, I, I, I, I cannot agree more. I, I was in that place right of not wanting to go vulnerable and just, I would, and I also love joking, right? I love giving my friends a hard time. I mean, I was just like, there is a certain point that where one, you know, you have to experience it going bad, like, you know, you joke with the wrong guy at the wrong time and you really cause a lot of pain and you have, I think that's a great experience or guys,
you know, to go through to just realize, man, not every joke is worth it all the time. And if it's ever risky, I'm just not going to go there. And two, there's just too much at risk. Like, there's just too much at hand. The stakes are too high for us to just settle and compromise and be comfortable and just these surface level relationships like men are desperate. And, you know, I think about that fishing trip and what your friend told you, I'm, I, that is so true.
Operate under the assumption that every guy here is desperate for safe space. Yeah. Every, these guys are craving and dying because they do not have safe space. And not that I'm the savior of the group. And I'm going to usher in the safe space, right? And, but it's, hey, I've experienced safe space with Jesus amongst other men. And I know it gives life. And I love these guys too much for them not to experience the same gift of life. And that's so good. That's so good,
JJ. That's the way I want to live. Hey, man, I just need to keep you around because you're just so anytime I say something like, I didn't keep you around, man. I mean, you're such an encourager. And I love your just the, the, the, the genuineness in you. And I think that's some of the secrets. So for you and Kate Boath, I think that's part of why people love listening to you guys. They love learning from you. And why your, your influence is just going to keep,
keep growing is because people can tell that you're real. They can just tell like, man, they, these people are real. And they, they really love each other. They really love the people they're helping. They really love God. And I want to go on the, I'm going to go on the ride with them. Well, I appreciate that. I feel the same way about you. And in anything that's good out of this podcast and the words that we speak, it is Jesus who's transformed and renewed and brought in hope
and brought in compassion and love. I was also just laughing to myself because I need to bring you into like a fight with Kate. And if I say something like it's cooler, profound, you could just like, that's so good. I'm just like, commentator, like a football commentator, like, all right, how's JJ gonna respond? Oh, that was good. That was how that was really, really good. Yeah. And then she would just roll her eyes like, who invited Dave and she'd come and
she's like, can we get rid of this guy? She's narrating our fight. I'll just, I'll just imagine you and my shoulder, some light ego can just be pumped up. Yeah, that was so good. JJ, that was really, really humble. So it can fight to imagine me on your shoulder encouraging you hit the gym. Imagine me and yoga pants and they're perfect, man. But that little angel on my shoulder. Yeah. That's so funny. So you're gonna picture that in the gym and then just start laughing and then
the people are like, what's that to laughing? That's guys insane just laughing. Hey, actually, I forgot to ask you and we'll close on this. We do these ice breaker questions and it's a, it's a would you rather than ask every guy you guess on here? I love it. And I just, I was too excited about an episode to skip it, but we'll close on it. So would you rather fight an ostrich and hand a claw combat to the death or would you rather fight
a shark and to the death? But the worst thing that can happen to use is you can only lose a limb of your choice. So you either kill the shark, but if you lose, the worst thing is you lose a limb. No, do you have any any weapons or is it just hand? The ostrich is like, imagine it's gladiator. You know, you're in the door arena and it's just you and an object. No, only one of you want to claw. Yeah, hand to be, hand to be combat and sharks. Yeah, same thing, but you're in the water.
Yeah, you're definitely in the water. Like me deep water or like waist deep. I was just swimming swimming pool swimming pool. So there's a deep end and a shallow end. Okay. All right, but even the shallow end, you know, is the, the, the, the shark can be fully submerged in a shallow end. So that doesn't really give you an advantage. And there's no weapon, right? So you're almost certainly in that scenario going to lose a limb with the shark.
Because, uh, you're not, there's no way to immobilize a shark effectively. Other than just holding him off by trying to punch him in the nose where his like nerves are concentrated. But then that eventually just going to make punch and, and, and if you can't get out, like if there's, is there like a time limit? Like where there's a no, it's see, that's what I mean. You know, kill that shark or, so you're, so it's basically either.
Do I want to, do I want to take my chances on being able to kill an ostrich before it kills me? Um, on fighting the shark. Okay, even though the shark, I, I feel like I'm losing an arm there. Um, I'm going to, I'm going to go, I'm going to trust myself and go with the ostrich because even though they're incredibly strong. Um, they would have a harder time. They don't have the same weaponry to, to, to, to do the damage. And their neck provides a great vulnerability because it's so long.
You could get a hold of that neck, um, and cut off oxygen. Just hold on to that neck. You got a lot, you could, a lot to put a choke hold on. Um, okay. So you're going for the choke hold. I'm going for the choke hold on the ostrich. Finally, answer. Okay. That's great. I think that's the most it's been like walked out and the deuce. And, well, it's a big, that's a big decision. People don't want to just jump right in.
I mean, what kind of guy would just, just say something off the top of the set here? This is your life or your arm at stake. It is a big decision. I think one day, if it ever comes up, you're going to be fully, fully prepared. I'll be fully prepared to, in that moment to walk through it. Yeah. Some, some sicko squid game kind of guy, like kidnaps me and they're like, all right, here's the deal.
I would love that. I mean, I'm like, if there's money at stake, I'll, I'll do some really, really don't bad stuff. Right. For $100. We should do like a cheap version of squid game where it's like, what can we get somebody to do for $50, $100. And, and put it together. Yeah. That's my, I love K hate to want to do this. I'm like, would you do that for $1,000? And she's like, no, I'm like, what about five? She's like, no, I'm like, okay, 25, half free. I mean, and she's like, this is so stupid.
But yes, but yes, I would do it for 25. You see, it's not that stupid, right? Because she's got her number. Yeah. You thought we're going to get a prize. Well, bro, thank you so much. I love you, man. And this was so much fun for all of us. Hey, love you, bro. Let's connect soon. You pick the restaurant next time and you can send me to the wrong place. And I'll still, I'll still show up. Okay. We just love you and Kate congrats on the growing family.
And we're just praying for you and she and you on. And to everybody listening, we love you guys too. Hey, yeah, and maybe we'll, we'll send up that picture for you and New York of pants. We'll just, for I ever got listening, he says, that sounds great. I mean, that picture. Premium subscribers. This is a Patreon. Owie fans kind of hybrid mix. Okay. Or maybe they have to pay to not get it. If you send us $10, we won't send it to you. Yeah. It worked.
Oh, so fun. Well, hey, what would you pay to not get this picture? Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thank you, bro. Love you, man. Love you, man.