Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kate. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way because last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying?
Now let's get to the heart of the matter. Hey guys, it's your girl Kate and guess what? This is the season finale of season 10 of The Heart of Dating Podcast. This season, we have covered all sorts of things related to sex for singles. And why we're doing this for singles is because oftentimes singles are shoot out of the room when the topic of sex comes up. It's like, oh, singles, you can't be here. This is for a
marriage only. But what that leads to is a bunch of ambiguity, a bunch of unanswered questions, a bunch of unfair expectations that often end up being unmet expectations if singles and when singles enter into potentially marriage one day. And so this season, we've covered things like what to do when you have a sexual past, how to heal from that, what about if you have sexual trauma, what does that look like coming into marriage, how to have body confidence and why that is so important in singleness and in dating.
Before you ever even potentially get married, we've covered sex expectations and what to maybe think of instead we've debunked some of these myths like sex is only for a man's pleasure, which is just not true at all. We've talked about modesty and lust. We talked about our women, the sexual gatekeeper for men's lust or not definitely within that episode.
We've covered our men more visually wired and if they are, what does that actually mean? We've also covered masturbation. Everyone's favorite topic that episode with Riley Keoh was so, so, so good. And guess what? Today we are finishing this season with an episode that you guys have asked for for a long time, which is physical boundaries in dating and how to have physical boundaries without being legalistic.
Like this is a question when Jay, Jay and I do a Q&A, almost always the topic of physical boundaries comes up. And so we invited our dear friends, Tori and Chad Masters onto the show to talk about this. And y'all, let me just tell you, they were fired up about this conversation. And the reason they're so fired up is because in their dating relationship, they did some things right. They also did some things that they wish they had done differently.
And they're like, hey, learn from us. Don't make all the same mistakes we did. And they were actually in a long distance relationship dating and that provided a unique opportunity of, oh, we weren't physically together that often, but then when we saw each other, man, there was just all this passion. And so, I just love how Tori and Chad talk about this subject in a way that is convicting but not legalistic.
And what I mean by legalistic is like, hey, do this because we say so. No, we want you to do something out of a posture of true conviction knowing that this is going to bring me closer to God. This is going to give God glory.
I love God so much that I want to do this to honor him to grow closer to him. That's why we want you guys to make decisions such as physical boundaries. And so I'm so excited for this episode. Tori and Chad are phenomenal. They are just like truly from the soul. They are phenomenal human beings.
They have an incredible YouTube channel. Check it out. They have so many fun videos on there. And they also have a fun podcast, which I've actually been listening to every day. It's morning with the masters and it's like a 10 minute devotional to start your day. And it's so good. Like I love listening to them. And it's just a fun way to engage with the word every single day. They also do speaking. They do so many things and they are just really, really, really powerful people for the kingdom.
Last thing you guys, if you enjoyed this season season 10, would you be open and willing to write a review on iTunes, rank us and write a review. It would mean so much to us. If you heard that, that's the dogs barking in the background. Hey, we're like honest over here on heart of dating, right? So let us know what you've thought about the season, what you think about JJ and I hosting together.
We just want to hear what you've been loving. And if you have some not so great feedback, we'd love for you to actually email that to us because that is actually the best way so we can have a conversation with you about what you maybe have not been liking. We actually genuinely want to know those things. So go ahead and email us at info at HD podcast.com. All right, guys, this is the season finale of season 10. Let's go without further ado. Here's our conversation with Tori and Chad Masters.
All right, guys, we're so pumped. We have Tori and Chad Masters on. What's up, guys? Hello, so excited to be here. I came in a little higher pitch than I intended to, so I apologize to the audience. My voice is a little bit deeper in that, but I was excited. It's okay. It's a transition time for you. You know, and my voice is also changing as well at 28. So finally hitting puberty. Praise God.
Oh my gosh. We're so pumped to have you guys on. We're talking about everyone's favorite topic. And we have been in this season on the podcast on sex. And we saved this episode, even though it's like really one that we could have done at probably the beginning, but we're like, no, we're saving one of the best topics for last, because everyone always asks, you know, like physical boundaries. How do we do this thing? And so what we loved is you tell them what you were saying before the pre-call.
Yeah, we were just saying it's so funny because as we were doing our homework under guys as amazing YouTube channel, which we would definitely recommend everybody to check out. We love it. Thank you. You guys this content is hilarious in the sense that it's like verbatim everything that we're teaching right now. And you guys did a series on sex and you guys have done multiple videos on boundaries.
Just two or three years before us. And so we're kind of following in your footsteps. So we appreciate any guidance. And you guys, this is like a take two for you. That's a lot of ways. People need the content. Yes, it's much needed. I know. Well, before we dive in, why don't you just said you guys have an awesome podcast and YouTube and all the things.
Just tell everybody what you guys do in case our people haven't already connected with you yet. Well, okay, thank you. I'll try to keep it short and sweet. We have a daily devotional podcast that's daily. We're in year three. So there's been a lot of episodes. I think we're going to do a special celebration for the one thousand one thousandth episode and the 10 million download. So we will be doing a big celebration for that. I didn't even know, but we're going to celebrate that.
The podcast is like that sounds cool. Let's do it. I'm not the best at communicating that. But we also have some time before we hit those goals on mornings with the masters. It's a sweet podcast. It's on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts. And we also have a YouTube channel called Torian Chad Masters, where we just share encouraging content.
And they basically, I want to be who we wish we had. Right? So we're speaking to the generation right behind us. And yeah, they just have Instagrams, Torian Masters and Chad Masters and you know, that's us. I love it. Actually, we just had somebody over the other day and she was getting ready in our spare bathroom. They were they were here. and they were like, do you guys know Torian Chad Masters? And was like, oh, yeah, I know.
And they were like, oh, we listen to their, I listen to their devotional like every single day. So she's out in the bathroom getting ready. She's like, it's so good. And so there she is, like listening y'all's podcast every day. So shout out to Lauren Hatton. So, so well, before we jump in, you guys have a lot of channels. What's your guys' favorite one? I mean, I think the podcast for me. Yeah, I go back and forth. I love mornings with masters. I mean, it is our daily, it's our heart.
And we do it purely. Like we don't monetize it. Like it is just for Jesus, just for our community. And so our heart is really there. But I still love conversations on YouTube because they're very real and they're part of our life. And so kind of like I were saying, like we have our sex series and our boundary series. And we have all of these talks that I wish. I would have had as a teenager or a young adult. And so I feel like also our heart is there too.
So I feel like it'd be really hard for me to choose. Yeah, it's like picking your favorite kid. I'm definitely YouTube. My favorite kid is my kid. I prefer YouTube over Instagram if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I love it. That would be such a hard thing for me to pick out too. If you ask me that, I'm like, I don't know. Maybe the podcast, it's a bread of butter. Yeah, I feel like. I feel like podcast listeners. And of course, I'm not trying to throw shade at anyone.
But I feel like podcast listeners are a little bit more committed. Whereas you know, like through TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube shorts, swipe cultures fully taken over. And I feel like whenever someone signs up to listen to a podcast, like they're here. They're here for the long haul. They're here to be entertained or encouraged or informed on something. And I feel like it's like, it's a different type of audience rather than I just want you to entertain me for 15 seconds.
Or, hey, I'm excited to be on this journey with you. And I think that's why it just feels a little bit more honest where you feel like you have to implement more effort into the shorter form content. And it feels a bit more stressful. Yeah. And it's not as long lasting too. For sure, I was actually just talking about this with our social media girl today.
But yeah, I mean, it's so true because when people come up to us, they're like, or they come up to me, they're like, oh my gosh, I've been listening to the podcast for years and I love it versus, oh, I found you on Instagram. And not that there isn't those people, but it's usually like, they're just so bought into the podcast. They love it. So anyway, I love that you guys have morning with the masters. I love your YouTube channel so good.
So you guys all have to jump on over to both those things after this because those greatness going on on all those channels. So guys, let's talk about boundaries. Okay, are you pumped for this? I love this topic. I am. So as we were like listening to y'all story, there's some similarities with some of our stories, which is so cool. And also because you guys did long distance, so did we. But let's just dive into it. Everyone always wants to know about boundaries. How do I set them?
How do I know what they should be? How do I keep them? And many people start off their journey with boundaries with really just like, hey, let's do exactly what we learned in youth group or like, let's just do it. The pastor told me to do. And it usually because of that doesn't often stick to truly their heart. Like it's not deeply rooted. I don't have a strong enough wine. Right. Exactly. There's not a strong enough wine.
Exactly. So I want to know for you guys in your relationship, obviously you're married now, but in dating, how did you guys individually before you even met come into knowing what your boundaries should be? So I think that's an important part of the process. Yeah. If I could start off, I would appreciate it. Because I just want to preface something real quick. You just mentioned that we're married.
And I just want to like give a quick call out to that that if you are single and you're kind of listened to this podcast of two married couples talking about things that you're struggling with as a single person, I just want to encourage you that I got married at 29. So I was a year older than it's like, you know, I went through some stuff. I idolized marriage. I crossed boundaries. I made so many mistakes. I know Tori did too.
And so I guess I just want to qualify a bit of that for you that whenever I want to get a personal trainer for the gym, I don't look for someone who's struggling to get to where I'm going or who's struggling to get to where I want to go. Or whenever I'm hiring like a financial advisor, I'm not looking like on Craigslist for that. I'm trying to go someone who has a track record of like of experience and what they've learned through that.
And so I do just want to encourage you all that Tori and I want to share from the mistakes that we've made and what we've learned along the journey. And so none of this is going to come off judgy at all or it's not meant to shame anybody because we're not part of that culture. However, we do just encourage you to listen because looking back, we're like, oh my word. Learn from our mistakes. I would have done things a little bit different. And so I know I just want to start with that.
So if you want to go start tackling the question, I just wanted to say that. Yeah, love the preface. I do feel like in terms of boundaries, my journey was different. Chad and I both came in to marriage. We were not virgins and we had made past mistakes in other relationships. And then it was in our season of singleness that I feel like our true why got developed. It was in that season that me personally my relationship with the Lord grew.
And before that, I definitely skewed more towards the how far is too far. And so I'm like trying to figure out what all I can do before I'm like, oh, that's like too far. Right? And I'm not asking the right questions. I wasn't looking at this as how can this relationship glorify God to the best of this relationship's ability? Because we're going to fall short. We're going to make mistakes. We are human. We're bent towards sin.
But if my sole goal in this relationship is to glorify God, then your why becomes so much stronger. Because I did. I was like, I just want to get so close to the line. And then shame still hit me at like a ton of bricks. And Chad and I fell into that. It wasn't that we were kind of in that mentality, but there's moments if you don't have proper boundaries in place, that temptation does take over. And I mean, I remember we were long distance.
And I feel like we did pretty well in that long distance season. We definitely weren't perfect, but we did better. And then I moved to California. And I just remember one specific night, we were still like getting my apartment, like my place ready. And we did the whole like, oh, well, you know, my place isn't ready yet. All the things. Like let's watch a movie. blah, blah, blah. Cross some lines. We didn't have sex, but we crossed some lines.
And I remember the next day, the shame, the conviction. It hit me hard enough, like mine as well. Like, yeah. It was so close that it's like, man, well, that was not glorifying to God. That was not honoring to Chad. And it's leaving me in a place that feels so broken still. And so we had, from that point to backtrack so far, and then our boundaries went a lot more strict because we wanted to honor each other. We knew that we were in this relationship for marriage.
And I think in that moment, the Y became a lot stronger because I just realized I'm like, man, this was not glorifying to God. And it was not glorifying and are honoring to Chad. And so that's when the boundaries got a little bit stricter. Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. I feel like the Y really matters. I feel like a lot of us, like what is she sharing about getting close to the line? It's almost like you think about like a stove that's turned on.
And as you stick your hand close to the stove, it's warm, then it gets warmer, then it gets hot, and then you burn your hand. And I feel like we're a lot of us believers were basically sticking our hand close to the flame to see how far we can go until we burn ourselves. And then we actually developed this really unhealthy relationship with boundaries because then we're basically looking through this boundary that we've put up this fence and we're unhappy.
We're saying, I wish I were on the other side. The grass is greener over there. That's where I want to be. And now we're looking at boundaries is almost like a jail cell. But I wish I could be let out to be my true self, to experience life. I feel like I'm missing out. And it's such an unhealthy thing because- It's such a lie. Yeah, and it is because boundaries are meant to protect you. Boundaries are a good thing.
And typically if you set up boundaries and people want to cross those, those are probably people that need those boundaries because there's unhealthy things that are happening here. Why do we lock our doors at night to make us feel safe? And so there are good things to protect us with. And we need to have the same, I guess what's the word? Like the same fever is at the same excitement to embrace boundaries within our relationships.
But what I was doing is I was just like, oh, because of my Christians who have to do this. Like that was my why. And it wasn't that no, this is God's daughter. I want to honor her to the best of my ability. And if I'm showing her with my actions right now, that I will put my sexual desires above her relationship with God right now, and dating, engage whatever, then what am I going to do inside of marriage? I'm showing her who I'm going to be right now in the future.
And it's just like, well, by God, why can't I just be selfless instead of selfish for 10 months or however long it takes people to get engaged and married have deep conversations, just practice self discipline and honestly laugh about it. It's like, you know you both want to, doesn't it? Yeah, like you know you can't wait for that time. But cherish it. Make this something to look forward to versus something that you're just like, oh gosh, I just can't believe I have to do this whole thing.
But that was a big thing for me is when I saw how badly, you know, again, we didn't have sex, but I saw how badly it impacted her. It destroyed me because I was bothered by it by my own relationship with God. But when I saw the person who I care about the most destroyed by it, I was like, I played a part in that. The person that I'm supposed to protect, the person I'm supposed to honor, the person who's supposed to love and cherish and enjoy.
Like she's hurting because of something that I said, yeah, I wasn't sure I have to say no. And it's just like, am I willing to keep doing that? No, for what? For me to, you know, I think that's kind of my thing is that our why is not strong enough. And I think a lot of us believers and I'll stop talking here in a second. I think a lot of us believers, it's not that we have lack of knowledge of boundaries, we have lack of execution. It's like we keep, yeah, self discipline.
We're asking the same questions just to different people because we won't what we want. But again, I don't think we're embracing the good side of what waiting in the good side of boundaries and the good side of self discipline offer us in our life. Instead, we're looking at boundaries as the sucks. Yeah. Well, in self discipline is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. And so I think it's really important in a relationship, especially when you're dating to look at that.
Like we are evaluating when we're dating the fruit and people's lives. And if they lack the fruit of self discipline and that should be, oh, little red flag here. Let me, we should talk about this, maybe we should evaluate this. And I mean, Chai and I both, like we struggled. We are not saying this from like a standpoint of, we did everything right. We're saying this from a standpoint of, man, we probably should have had some of those conversations before this.
We probably should have put those boundaries in place before that, et cetera. Yeah. And the first description of love in Corinthians is patient, love is patient, right? And it's just like, wow, if that's the description of love and I'm not being patient, what am I being, right? Because I'm clearly not being loving, so am I being lusty?
And it's just like he who lusts after, you know, it's just one of those things like, man, like, do I really want to just get as close to the edge as I can just to still be a believer? And it's just like, or how can I honor and worship God with my whole life, in my whole life, not just my finances, not just my creativity, not just my whatever, like my whole life, my body, my everything. And it's just like, again, I think we're just playing small ball here.
I think that there's God's called us to be so much more and so much set a part for His glory because we are Christ's righteousness, you know? Then kind of living just for like a, oh, like, yeah, I go to church and I'm gonna, you know, tie that stuff, which I'm not, I'm not gonna go to church or tie them saying, there's so much more to that relationship and true intimacy with Christ that comes along with following Him than just trying to obey some rules, you know? Exactly.
Well, and, you know, first of all, y'all are bringing some heat today. I don't know if you guys should call people for this, if I could or if I could or if I could or if I could. No, it's good. As in like, I love it. And I think I hope everyone listening is loving it. And you guys are exactly right, you know, that question and we've talked about extensively is the first question that everybody asks is how far is too far? And that just reveals everything about where their heart is, right?
Like as believers, our question should never. What other conversation are we saying? How much sin, how close is sin can I get with? Like, it's only in this conversation and more importantly, you know, I always thought about the analogy of, if I'm bowling, in my, the object in my eyes, that's shrike and the pins, boundaries are basically, you know, those little bumpers that go up, right? Shout out to the bumpers in life. I love the bumpers. I love bowling with bumpers. Sweet you.
Okay. I hate the guy. But those are boundaries in life because they help guide us to the pins to keep your head out of the gutter. Right. And like, and if you're bowling in your objective is to hit those pins, your question is not this. How low can I have these, you know, bumpers that I don't go over it, but they still work. Right. Cause going over them is failure. And that's like, it's not just a gutter. It's a massive pitfall, right? Of following short.
So the question is, how can I actually edify these bumpers? So that I succeed, right? Which is what we're talking about today. Which is that lying conviction. So you guys, I'm exactly the rest of this episode cause y'all about to go ham.
Well, you brought us something so good too because, and I love your vulnerability that like, hey, we, we knew and we had done some more in-signalness around boundaries around our Y. And then we had to have like, we kind of crossed some boundaries and we had to reestablish what that would look like for us. Which I do want to talk about that too cause we get so many questions about what do we, if I cross boundaries and what.
But I think something I want to go into is, how did you guys set boundaries? Did you do that at the very beginning? Did you have a conversation or did you do, did you have the conversation after you kind of messed up a little bit because what I often see is, if that conversation is not had, people will just assume like that the other person, they were on the same page, right? Like, it's like you kind of just assume, I'm not gonna do this and you're not gonna do this.
Okay, but if you don't actually have that discussion, there's so much gray and nuance. And also, I could be on page two, I say this analogy, like I could be on page two, meaning my line is this, but the person I'm dating could be on page three, meaning their line is this. And they think that's totally fine. And I think mine is great, but theirs isn't. But we have not talked about it.
And so if they're trying to go, bring me over to page three, I'm like, oh, wait, this is, and in the moment, if not discussed, if I'm not strong enough in my convictions or whatever, then I might be going to page three, even though I didn't really want to.
Yeah, I mean, first off, if you ask, couples have been married successfully for 20, 30, 40, 50 years and you ask them what the secret sauce is, you'll hear things like always date your spouse, you hear things, you know, you hear different things like that. But one of the biggest things that you hear is communications key. And for Tori and I, we've seen that in our short four plus years of marriage of how important communication is for us.
And so, you know, if you can start practicing good communication before you're married, you're gonna have such an easier marriage as you get married. And so I think talking about it as one of the best things you can do, I told Tori straight up, I wasn't gonna kiss her until we're officially dating. And we did not. I did not. And it's just like, and I didn't say it in a rude way, of course, we both, I really was excited to share that moment with her.
But it was one of those things where I had been in a previous relationship where it was like, it was only about like kind of that physical and there wasn't that close, like the closeness of heart, you know? And so for me, I was like, I wanna get to know her heart before her body. And so that's really important to me. And so for me, I was willing to shut down the engine on all the other stuff to focus on these things. And I think it really did pay off.
But I think we had a few kind of set boundaries in stone. It was a little different for us because we were at long distance. So some of the boundaries we actually set was that we wouldn't go longer than three weeks without seeing each other. You know, like we kind of set some different type of boundaries being long distant.
And that long distance can be like the greatest asset to your relationship with the biggest liability, the greatest asset and the aspect that we learned how to like really commit to each other, like to have three hour time difference, 3,000 miles away. Okay, we're gonna get on FaceTime right now and we're not gonna talk about business, you know? Or we're gonna schedule like a date night on FaceTime.
Or we're gonna pay money to travel in to see each other, which is a fortune and our duties when we don't have that much money, you know? And the other side is, is that you haven't seen each other in a long time. Yeah. And then you get an answer. And they're looking at that person and you're kind of like, oh, I missed you. I love you. I love you. I love you. And so, I think we kind of developed our boundaries along the way, because we both were bringing and baggage from past relationships.
And so I think at the same time, we were learning to, what's the word when you over-correct? You know what I mean? I think we were kind of learning to over-correct from our previous mistakes. We were trying to just figure out how that works in a healthy relationship. And honestly, a lot of the reason why Torin I started making the content that we do is because we didn't have it. It wasn't out there.
Like you guys are saying that you're creating stuff two, three years later, Torin, I were like, why aren't people talking about this stuff? Why did we have to learn the hard way? I wish, like a mentor, someone would have sat me down and shared some of this stuff with me. And I'm sure that they're out there. Maybe my ears are turned off. Maybe I wasn't looking for that accountability. So I wanna say that. But I will say it wasn't readily out there for me to hear some of these things.
Yeah. And I feel like we like had small conversations along the way, but I feel like where we did make the mistake was not having what you said, the conversation right up front of these are our set boundaries. And this is why? Because I feel like we would have had more of like a contract with each other if that makes sense. Because we literally just posted a video on YouTube with our non-negotiable. So I had a non-negotiable list that I had an accountability partner sign.
And these were the things that I was not going, to veer from when it came to dating someone. So if I was saying yes to being someone's girlfriend, then it meant that these things were checked off. And they were character traits. They were different things. So we literally like go through that whole list over on that video and we like made a little PDF, et cetera, so people could make their own. But I feel like that was like a contract for me.
It was like, I am not going to settle for anything less than this. And I feel like if we do that with boundaries and we actually have more of like a contract where we sign it and we have accountability, then it makes it so much more real. Because when you are in the heat of the moment and you push things a little far, but you don't have accountability, then I feel like it's a lot easier to fall into that than when you do. Absolutely.
I mean, one thing we've been talking a lot about, it's similar, very similar to struggle against pornography. And one big thing we say is, the battle with pornography and law, some masturbation is not one at 11 o'clock where you feel whatever and you just get under your hands and knees and you say, Jesus, come, like help me. The battle is one at 8 o'clock that morning, at 11 o'clock that morning, at 2 o'clock that afternoon.
And the same way that you guys are saying, the battle and the challenge with boundaries is one before a hint. Yeah, it's about not flirting with it. I don't know the reference for the scripture, but it's like, you know, be of sober mind and don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.
And it's not to be like doom and gloom, but it's just to be honest, like, hey, like, whoever's listening to this, if you're struggling with some of those temptation, whether it be pornography or you want to get physical with someone you're dating, like, first off, you're not alone, you know, and Corinthians it says, no temptation has seized you except what is common to man, but God is faithful for he will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can endure.
And he will always provide a way out so you can stand up underneath him. And so we all go through these temptations. You're not alone. Like, hey, like you are absolutely not alone. But what we need to do is do exactly what you're saying is these battles are one early on and not flirt with it, thinking that we are stronger than we actually are. Like, oh, I can do this, but not be tempted with that. It's like, right now, this leads to that. This leads to that. That's just pride. Well, it is.
And a lot of things I see, so I'm older than JJ. I'm 33, so we have a five and a half year age gap. And a lot of people that listen to this podcast are actually in their 30s. And, you know, I see something I experience with my own friends and then people that we serve is they're like, well, I'm 35, I'm 38, I'm whatever age. And it feels weird to be like, I can't hang out with them after 10 or whatever because I'm old. Like, or not old, but like I'm older. Like I'm not like 22 anymore, you know?
And I'm an adult. And like, I'm, you know, but I think what I had to come to, because we started when I was 31. And for me, like, even though some of my friends, okay, some of them were like, wow, you're, you have like these specific boundaries for yourself. And like you said, Troy, like getting so specific on it, because I think like you, it's important. And I had to do that of being like, hey, after 10 PM for me, not a lot of good happens.
For me, like, and for other people, maybe they're fine. But JJ's seeing it now, I'm marriage. Like after 10 PM, I'm weird. Like, I'm just like a different person. And like, it's fun now that we're married, but like not. When I wasn't married, like, I just don't have. Exactly. But I think that there are some people that maybe are a bit older who are like, well, I'm not, I don't need that kind of, like, I don't need that kind of accountability.
Yeah. Or like we can maybe stay together in, and this goes into like the staying together and in the same bed or like we're traveling, as we're adults, and we have a lot of money and we're gonna travel together and we're dating and it just makes sense. Like let's just stay together. And so it's like, there's this, it's like, well, that's so elementary to do that. But I actually think, no, that's still wise.
Even if you're older, like you still need to know yourself and it doesn't mean just because you're older, you shouldn't put in bumpers in your life if this has been a struggle for you. I think that's actually a bigger red flag. If people are like, hey, I'm older and so I don't need this anymore. For me, that would be a red flag because I would think as you grow older, you also grow in wisdom. And I think knowing yourself at that age is really important.
I feel like my boundaries were so much better when I got older, right? Because I'm learning more. I'm being sanctified in Christ day by day, praise the Lord. My boundaries in my early 20s, terrible, terrible boundaries in my early 20s, they got much better as I aged. And so I feel like as you age, you learn more. You should be getting closer and closer to Jesus. And for me personally, I just think what you did was really, really smart.
And I think that saying something like that is just trying to find a way around. And I think people will. Like they will go to different people who are gonna tell them what they wanna hear, right? And I am not that girl, my friends know that I'm not that girl. And so when they want to hear something, I'm not the person that you do, because I'm like very one. I'm like, I don't think you should do that. And Chad and I did, we traveled. But guess what?
Every single time a boundary was crossed, guess where we were in the same hotel room. Yep, yep, yep. As you're looking at her, like, yep, yep, yep. There's something I was gonna say. I think I mentioned this earlier on in the podcast about just kind of laughing at it. And I think that's really important whenever you are in your 30s or whatever age you are, because it almost does seem juvenile to a certain point.
Like, what do you mean we have to say goodnight at 9 p.m. or what do you mean we have to do this? What do you, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's important just kind of laugh at it, but I do wanna encourage you that Tori and I, now we have definitely a history in our relationship, right? Where I got put in the friend's own twice, you can look that up on YouTube. It's this whole thing, okay? Or moving on. But with that, I mean, so we started dating late December of 2016, right?
When did we get engaged? 2018. Okay, so late December 2017, we were long distance until July of 2017. So that's about seven months, right? We got engaged in the eight month, and then we got married, what? Four months later. Four and a half, five months later.
And so because we were long distance or because we weren't like living as a married couple, we had a lot of very deep conversations early on, because we were exploring each other's intentions and our hearts and our character, versus each other's bodies. We actually wrap this thing up pretty quick. And honestly, I would encourage you people who have been in a waiting season a bit longer than others.
You know, honestly, you're probably gonna be able to cut through the weeds even faster than most people. And so you don't have to worry as much about, you know, dating for three years, taking four trips a year, and just wondering when this guy's gonna get on as these and pop the question, you know what I mean? Because you're having those questions as mature adults.
And things probably will actually happen a little bit faster, leading you to get married faster, and then you can enjoy that part of marriage earlier. And so there's like good news in it, but I feel like there's almost this thing where people date like for years and years and years. Well, I mean, for me, I just, I tell girls this all the time. When it comes to living together, sleeping together, traveling together, like doing all the things that should be, I feel like reserved for marriage.
It's like, why would the guy close the door, right? Like why would he commit? You're giving him everything he would get if you were his wife, and it's like, right now you're just on an audition to be this role, and how's that feel? Like I wouldn't want to be on an audition, right? Like, am I good enough to be your wife? Like, no, no, like you can commit before you get all those things.
Yeah. On the topic of living together, sleeping in the same bed, all of those things, like me and Jojie, we did not live together before marriage, and we never slept in the same bed together.
And it made for some interesting conversations with some family members of mine that don't necessarily hold the same values as me, where we went home for the holidays, and I'm like, yeah, Jojie sleeping on an air mattress in the living room, and it's like this tiny little air mattress, and they're like, this seems so weird. Like why is he down there in an air mattress? I love this. And I'm like, this is just our value, okay?
But it's, you know, for me, and I have, you know, not to call out some of my friends, but I do have friends that have been in amazing, that are in amazing marriages, and they did cross some of those boundaries that I'm saying right now in engagement or in dating. And I just, I just think like to your point, Tori, like, like it's something so intimate in my opinion, to live together especially, but even sleeping in the same bed together.
Like it's such an intimate thing, like nobody really sees me before bed ever. And so that's like an intimate space for a week. To wake up. To wake up exactly your first person that's seeing you in the morning.
Like it's such an intimacy that even I just, even if you don't cross physical boundaries, while sleeping in the same bed, which I feel would be very difficult, but even if you don't, yeah, even if you don't, like there's something, there's an intimacy to that, that when I would explain that to my friends who didn't agree with me on that, I was like, I just believe that there really is an intimacy in even just sleeping together, that I would rather reserve for marriage.
And so that, but that has to be a conviction that you feel deep in your heart, like in order to practice it. And I, I mean, I think it really is worth it. Because on our wedding night, we slept together the first time. It was so fun and amazing. Yeah. And you get to grow and explore things together and figure things out without already knowing how everything's gonna go because you're married because of your commitment, not because you know everything's already gonna work.
Yeah. And that commitment, that covenant that you've built is so much stronger than any sexual chemistry or whatever that you may already have experienced or know. And one of the things that I tend to ask people, and again, like I don't say this in a rude way, but it's like, okay, well, what's the defense for staying in the same house? Or money? You save money, okay. Okay, so you're saying that honoring God's daughter, okay. Honoring God's daughter is less important than saving what?
Okay, just say if you date for an entire year, okay. Just say it's a year. And say the difference is $2,000 a month is the difference. That's a lot of money, $2,000 a month. So you're telling me that for $24,000 to live separately, you can't honor God's daughter for one year and the span of your lifetime being married together is, and I always say that you should never step over a dollar to grab a penny. And that's clearly that.
You're saying I would rather save a buck and risk, like building unhealthy, crossing boundaries with this person and honoring this person to the best of my ability for some money, you know. Well, it's a great question as in like, I hate Chad, like right now for any part of your life, I'll give you $24,000 right now. The only thing you have to do is just dishonor God. Yeah, yeah, absolutely not. Absolutely not.
And it's just one of those things, I'm just like, oh man, like, why have I done that in previous seasons of my life, you know? But it's because I was only thinking, like from a shorter point of view, I wasn't thinking that me saying no now is gonna help her feel comfortable when I travel alone in the future. You know, me saying no now is gonna teach her my character of how I act whenever she's not around. Me saying no, show her myself discipline. And it's a good thing it should be celebrated.
Cause I think we all have that friend who just like, they're stubbornly, they have the amazing integrity. Like their integrity is like stubborn where they just dig their heels in. And I always admire that. I was like wow, you have such a conviction for that. I wish I had that. And it's just like this is something to be celebrated. And back on the thing that you're saying, okay, is that I always say when it comes to intimacy, if you break down, I know I say this a lot.
So if you've listened to any of our content, I do apologize, but it's more saying intimacy breaks down to into me, you see. And it's so much deeper than the physical. It's something spiritual happening there. There's an emotional connection. And so that's why whenever you start opening those floodgates, I love how society is just boiled like intimacy into physical sex is so much deeper than that. And I don't think we're always recognizing the beautiful power and gift that sex is.
It's a beautiful, powerful gift. And it's something that should be respected where if someone were to drop a luxury car off in your driveway, you're going to treat it with respect. You're going to treat it with honor. Because this is a thing of value. But I think that sex has become so devalued in culture where it's just like now it's just like it's a using abuse type thing. Like how can I get what I need from that person? Yeah. Versus how can I serve and honor this person? And yeah.
And so I think if we esteemed it in a healthy way where it's not about this whole shame and this whatever they call it nowadays, quote unquote, purity culture, but it's just about say, hey, this thing is powerful and it's beautiful and it's a gift. And I need to treat it that way. Whenever you see someone hold a beautiful, like little baby bunny, you don't see them grab it with forceful hands and squeeze it. No, they hold it with the respect that thing requires.
And we should do the same thing because we look and cherish this thing that we're given as a gift. Wow, this is powerful, but it's also beautiful. I need to treat it like so. Yeah. And Chad always uses this example when it comes to sex. Imagine you're in this like freezing cold blizzard and you get this package delivered to your door and it's how to build a fire, right? And so you have all the perfect ingredients to start the fire. Well, do you go build the fire in the bedroom?
Or do you go build the fire in the fireplace? And so this beautiful gift has the ability to heat and warm the entire household or it has the ability to burn the entire house down. And so God has given us the gift of sex. And in the right place, it does beautiful things, right? But in the wrong place, it can be super distracted. Yeah, it's just probably expecting it. Yeah, absolutely. So I have a question for you guys because this has been amazing.
I feel like there's definitely a lot of people listening and I wish I would have had a little bit more counsel and wisdom in teaching. I think everyone knows what the boundaries are. Everyone knows what the line to cross and what is not to cross. If I'm sitting here and I'm like, we just cross boundaries last night and I'm feeling really guilty. And this is also my third or fourth time listening to a conversation on boundaries. I've committed to boundaries six times.
We've had come to Jesus moments 10 times and yet we're still struggling. What would you guys say is like my top priority? Like how do I actually change here? Or do I just need to break up? Because I'm not even capable of leading in this situation. Yeah, I mean, I think of three things. I think the first thing is that you need to say out loud in this moment, God has never loved me more. Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And I didn't get to heaven on my own merit.
I got to heaven on the merit that He purchased me with. So Christ has never loved me more than this moment. And you need to receive that and let it wash over you, knowing that your sins aren't paid for. But with that said, now that sin and death has lost its sting, we no longer have to fill the empty void that we're feeling with sexual pleasure, with using those types of things to fill an emptiness. Because that emptiness was filled by Christ.
And now we can walk forward with wisdom that we pull from scripture and from wise counsel. We can take that wisdom and apply healthy boundaries within our life and have an honest, intimate, vulnerable conversation with the person that we want to share our life with. And we can say, hey, I felt a little uncomfortable. And I feel like we keep going back to the same thing. It says in Proverbs, you know, just like a dog returns to their vomit, so full to their folly. Hey, let's not run back to this.
Let's set some healthy parameters. Even if we have to over-correct way to the other side, then we can work our way back until we find a healthy medium that way we feel honored by each other and honored by a more honoring God with our relationship. But it starts with remembering that a lot of the times that we feel this urge and this need to do something, it's because we're feeling empty. And we're taking something and we want to feel something.
And we're using a situation to feel something and to know that we are free from that. We are free to, from being emotional and sexual abusers, right? Where we actually have to just constantly use things in order to scratch an itch. We are free from that. Galatians 5.1 says, it is for freedom that I set you free. Therefore, do not yoke yourself to the change of slavery again. Don't do it again. And so my top three would be remind yourself verbally out loud. The crisis never loved me more.
And secondly, it would be about getting under that wise counsel, getting into scripture and asking God to put healthy boundaries on your heart about how you can best honor him and not just end closer to the line a little by little. And number three would be about having that honest, intimate, vulnerable conversation. Because I've never felt more loved by Tori than when I've confessed sins to her. And she's loved me in spite of them.
And so people forget the depth that's gonna build in your relationship whenever you work on something together. Versus you just try to be perfect in your performing for each other. Because love is not about performance. It's not about that at all. Yeah, that's so good. And I feel like for me personally, when he was talking about this, shame is something I talk about very frequently. And I feel like when you experience, like truly experience grace, that's what changes you.
I think that so often we try to change so that we feel like we deserve God's grace. And I think when you recognize it, like you could never, ever do anything ever to deserve the grace and mercy that God gives you on a daily basis. And I know left to my own devices, I am such a sinful person, like truly, without the grace of the Lord, I do not like the person that I am.
And so when you actually experience, when it goes from your head, like, oh yeah, like God forgives me, like there's grace, et cetera, et cetera. And it actually hits you in your heart. That's what transforms your heart. And then it becomes different. Because now it's, I recognize what Jesus did on the cross. And I think so often, I would actually really want to punish myself for my sin.
Like I would be like, I feel so much shame and condemnation for what I've done that I want to now punish myself. And I think it was a Tim Keller sermon that said it. And almost every single time I share this, I cry because it's just so, it's impacted me to like the deepest level. But when you try to punish yourself for your sin, it is like looking at Jesus on the cross and saying, that punishment that you took for me, that wasn't enough. That wasn't enough.
And so I'm going to continue punishing myself. And that changed my heart because I recognize what Jesus actually did to cover my sin. And when that really hits you and you're filled with that grace and you're filled with the thankfulness for what he did, that's what makes me want to honor him. That's the deepest why that will actually change you. It's meditating on the cross of Jesus and saying, Jesus, you died to cover me for this. You died to free me from this. I want to honor you for that.
Like I want to honor you for that sacrifice that you made. Help me do this, Father. Like I know that I'll fall short, but like what you did, I cannot fathom. And so that's what changes your heart. And it becomes more than just legalistic rules that I'm trying to abide by, to what make myself look holier than I am, right?
Like no, no, no, like I want to do this because of what he did for me and not live in this grace abuse circle, where I'm just going to continue to do this because like God's grace is ill-covered for me, right? Like Jesus still loves me. That line, nothing irks me more. Like, oh, I'm just going to keep on sending because grace will cover me. That is such an abuse of what Jesus did on the cross. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how we operate as children of the light.
We are supposed to be set apart. We are supposed to look different. And culture says this, right? But what does scripture say? And every reason like that, he put these boundaries in place for us is for our own flourishing. And I think that's what we forget so often. It's like, oh, we are shackled to these boundaries. We can't do this, we can't experience this. And it's like, no, no, we actually live in greater peace and greater joy and more freedom because we are no longer shackled.
And so it's just a different perspective, mind shift, heart shift, yeah. It makes me think of, like when Adam and Eve were in the garden, and it makes me think of when God literally told them all this stuff in terms of, feel the earth, take the meaning over the animals, work the land, you know, don't eat from this tree. It makes me think that like those of us who are asking that question, like how close can I get? And I've asked it, okay, so just everyone here, I've asked that question a lot.
For sure, me too. If I were in the garden, would I basically say, like how close can I get to this apple without like, sinning, like how close? Like no, if, you know, Lord willing, I hope if through the power of the Holy Spirit, I wouldn't grab the apple and eat it.
I'm, you know, I am, if we do have a bitterness towards sin now, but it's just this thing, it's just like, what if you just put it in those terms, am I gonna go like climb that tree and play on it and grab the apple and just, oh, it smells like a nice apple, you know what I mean? Like no, I'm probably gonna be like, okay, that's not a good area for us to be.
But again, you know, there is a side of like, I understand why Adam and Eve did what they did because the enemy works in confusion when he says, they gotta really say that. I think that's probably the biggest bullying point from this whole podcast that we're doing right now is to encourage you all that are listening right now that I fell into a lot of issues in my life because I was confused. I was confused about what God said. I was confused about what, what culture is doing.
And when it was first said by the serpent, the God really say that, it starts with confusion. Yeah. And so, in questioning God's character. And if you're living a life confused about what you can do, like we need to not over complicate this. We need to keep it simple. Shouldn't be this confusion. Shouldn't be this confusion. But it shows the magnitude of what the enemy's done within our culture and our society. And especially as us believers learn how to live inside of this culture and society.
And so we have to be crafty. We have to be smart. And so that's why I'm thankful that there's people that we're learning from, you know, there's people that are still coaching Torianai and stuff. And it's like we have to because if we're not actively learning and growing through things, we're gonna fall for the temptation. And we're gonna fall for the confusion that's offered in front of us. And so, yeah. You know, it's so powerful because as you guys are talking, so incredible.
I was thinking about some of my journey in this area and my story, people on the show know this. But I dated so much in my past and crossed so many boundaries and started dating at a very young age and physicality and sexual connection and relationship was a big deal for me. And when I really broke it down and decided, like I really wanna break this tendency in my life because it's not serving me, I don't feel, I feel more empty afterwards.
I realized so much of it had to do with how I saw myself and how I viewed how God really loved me. And if I really understood that or not, like did I really understand to your point, to Torianai about the sacrifice Jesus has given for me and how much God deeply, deeply loves me because if I can get to a point of deeply knowing that from not just head knowledge, I know God loves me, we can all say that.
But like deep knowing heart knowledge, soul knowledge, like that God loves me and is willing to die for me and that is such a profound sacrifice. Like if I can truly embrace that, it transforms how I'm living because, you know, to your point and that was something I had to deeply work on. So often I see, and I know for me, a lot of the reason why I crossed boundaries in the past in relationship was because I didn't fully accept that love of God deeply.
I didn't fully know that love of God deeply. Like I said it, I knew it mentally, but like in my, the depths of my soul, and I think when you know it in a deep knowing, it transforms how you see yourself and you see others, how you approach relationships. Because Christ can't be your savior full of love if he's also now your Lord, and you're not subscribed to his Lordship.
Like you can't say Jesus Christ is savior, who loves me so much, come on in, but Jesus Christ, the savior and Lord of my life, you stay at the doorstep. You can't have one version of Jesus and not the other, but when you do subscribe to that true grace and the true forgiveness, like you said, Tori, and it was so amazing, that should transform your heart that you do crave to obey.
I think it's so powerful whenever, I love what you guys are saying, because whenever you see someone who's been well loved by their family, like their mom and dad, and you see how they walk through life, the person I'm thinking of is Riley. Riley, I don't know who her new love singer is. Yeah, sorry. When you see her walk, you see someone who is well loved, right?
And then, but because she received the love, and now we as children of the most high God, you, we should feel differently as we're walking, as we're receiving that love. And if you do feel like you're heading this roadblock, where you're like, actually I don't feel different. I still feel pretty unlovable. I still feel like I know God loves me, but I don't know that he loves me.
I know that a lot of us can project the lack of love that we have received from our parents, our family, our friends, our schools, whatever, on God. And we're like, okay, well, I can only receive as much love from God as what I've received from the world, which honestly for a lot of us is not that great. Exactly. And so we do have to, you know, we either seek counseling.
I saw a counselor for almost two years for different subjects, you know, for mental health, and even one for career, we need that coaching to help us work through those things that we've gone through. I think people with counseling too, I think they think that counseling comes into play when things are rock bottom, or when the problem occurs versus being proactive.
And saying, no, I need wise counsel in my life so that I can walk in fruitfulness, so that I can walk in wisdom, so that I can walk in light. And so it's not waiting, right? And I think that that's kind of the point with boundaries. It's like, let's not wait till we cross the line to set the boundaries. Let's be proactive and go ahead and set the boundaries in place so that we don't fall into the gutter.
Yeah, but it's also not too late too, and especially to have a positive interaction with this thing that are called boundaries. Like we don't, again, it doesn't need to be the super negative thing where I feel terrible. It's like, no, like, wow, I get to honor you this way. I get the sacrifice for you. I get to honor you. I get to bless you. I get to do that stuff. I don't have to, I get to do it.
Yeah. It's talking about like moving boundaries from a place of fear or shame or feeling like I can't move, like you said being in a prison cell or something to a place of empowerment. Like I think that's really important. Your boundaries have to come from a place of empowerment. Like I'm empowered to do this. Like because why? Because of all the reasons we just talked through. Like I'm empowered to do this, and I deeply want to do this. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, in the foundation of all human relationships on earth, how can we set this person up to grow closer to Christ and God than they were before? And everything I do should be guarded with that motivation and boundaries and crossing them is funny because it does the opposite right at the tracks. So I think you guys did such a wonderful job. I love how you guys just do heart surgery and every way that you talk and focusing on the heart transformation and the grace transformation.
And you guys know your scriptures so well. I think like we're just super, super blessed. You know, Tori, as you were talking, you know, anytime somebody says Tim Keller, I'm gonna love the next words that come out of their mouth anyway. He's so good. But you really, really, really, actually got roasted by Tim Keller. How you did? Yeah. Yeah, I got roasted by him. Well, do we have time? I was so jealous. Yeah, I was so jealous.
So my mentor, Michael Smith, was going through Tim Keller's seminary and he was a pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City. Oh my god. And so I was part of the church and that's actually where I got counseling for two years, shout out, they paid for it. So love Redeemer. Amazing. I had no money and they offered to pay for it. So just doing the Lord's work. And anyways, I was sitting. I did Redeemer counseling too in New York when I lived there. That's so crazy.
Yes. Yes. Wow. Do you go to the building like on 45th Street? Yes. Yes. After my verbal relationship, that's the counseling I did. That's wonderful. Yes. Wow. That's hilarious. I am. Well, anyways, I was auditing a seminary class and I was in there. And my mentor, Michael Smith, was also a formal model. And that was my previous life. I was in the modeling industry. That's how I found him. And so he gave me a lot of wisdom in the industry and all that stuff.
And Tim Keller, I don't remember the exact joke, but he essentially was talking about how we need to not look at the outward appearance of things, how God sees the inside. And he's like, unless you're male models and he looked at both of us. And there was like a room of like eight people and we just started laughing. Because Tim Keller's like, I mean, this in the most positive, compliment way, he's a huge nerd. And I mean that in a compliment way. Yes. Just he loves to read. He loves it.
And it's just so funny. I was not expecting to get roasted by him, but I remember the phone call afterwards. He was like a kiddie child. I got to call my cab afterwards. We walked down the street in New York. Like a James Face. He was like, it was a special moment for me. There's a very special moment. Did that. I would wear that with a badge of honor. Oh, I do. He does. A bat-cainted compliment from Tim Keller? Yeah. That's a big tip.
I mean, if I could give you just one last line, I remember I was waiting for my counseling session. So it's inside the little lobby area. And right in front of the lobby area is the big fishbowl building of where they have their team meetings or conferences, whatever. I mean, they probably fit like 150 people in there more. And I'm in there. I'm reading a book called Preaching by Tim Keller. And I'm just waiting. My turn. And there's a whole big office meeting in there.
I mean, I'm talking like a hundred, 200 people in there. And then literally I'm reading my book. And I don't know if you're watching this on YouTuber wherever this is, but imagine your hands over kind of like in front of your face where you can't see what's in front of you because of the books right there. And then I pulled the book down as I was thinking about something and I looked in front of me.
And I see a very tall gentleman who's bald sitting on the floor in the back of that massive conference room receiving the meeting. I love how he is built through Christ, this amazing church that's ministered to so many things. And he's just sitting on the floor just receiving. You know, he didn't put himself in a seat of honor. He's not prideful. And in that moment, I was just so thankful for the journey that I was with Redeemer in New York.
And it was just so cool to see someone so humble, like truly humble. And he just, you know, he was just excited to be there. And he just took a seat at the back and sat on the floor. So cool. Jason's gonna like cry. He's like, I love it. I love it. I mean, it's just like, every other day he's quitting Tim Keller to me. I'm like, yeah. I'm not smart enough to come up with the inside of the house. I'm like, 100%.
No, it's in a lot of those people, I mean, praise God that they paved the way for us to receive so much wisdom. And absolutely. Yeah, I'm obsessed. Yeah, I completely agree. Sometimes I wonder why I just don't play him over my mic and just, you know, repeat him versus trying to come up with content. That would be funny. I know. This episode today is Tim Keller's or my number 25. Thank you guys so much. This has been awesome. Yeah, it's been amazing.
And you guys really have, speaking of that Galilee humility, Chad, if you really set the tone, that was Galilee humility, a posture of, you know, just empathy and just realizing that, hey, I'm not who you guys think I am. Like, I am a broken failed man, who just wish I could have heard this five years ago. That's why I'm here. And I'm going to, I'm going to boast in my testimony, my story of where I feel, because this is where Christ is most evident in my life today.
And so you guys both really, really embellished Galilee humility, Galilee was them. And it's not of your own function. So I'm just so grateful. And we really are thankful for this episode today. Yeah, thank you guys so much. This is amazing. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. It was a blast. We love talking about this stuff. You could talk about it for hours. That is too. Well, we love you guys. And we'll see you soon. Thank you. Love you guys. Thank you. Bye guys.
Thank you. The Heart of Dating Podcast is created by Kate Warman. It is a part of the converged podcast network. Our incredible editor is the one and only Scott Carro. Our theme music was developed by the amazing Christian LeDue. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, or if you've never written us a review or ranked us on iTunes, we'd encourage you to do so because it helps us so much to get this podcast into more people's ears.
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