Welcome to The Heart of Dating Podcast. Hey, it's Kate. I'm so glad you could join us this week as we try to entangle the ever-so ambiguous world of dating as a Christian. Over here on Heart of Dating, we get real as we answer some tough questions and uncover transformative ways to approach Christian dating. Oh, and you better believe we have some laughs along the way. Cause last time I checked, the struggle is hashtag real. You know what I'm saying? Now let's get to the heart of the matter.
Hey guys, it's your girl Kate and welcome back to another episode of The Heart of Dating Podcast. We are almost finished with season 10, our entire season on Sex for Singles. And it has been a really good season, you guys. I mean, I personally have really enjoyed
it. I have heard countless stories of how this season has really opened y'all's minds to new topics to things that you didn't know before or didn't even think about before or things that you maybe believe, but then realize maybe this isn't a healthy belief system that I have. And so I just want to ask you today, if you have been enjoying this podcast, would you consider writing us a review on iTunes and ranking us? It would mean a lot.
I have seen a lot of reviews come in positive reviews and some not so great ones, which you know what? I take all of it into consideration and some of the harder ones are harder for me to read because we pour so much into this podcast every single week, but I want you guys to be honest. And we want to do the things that actually serve you guys. So if this podcast has meant a lot to you, if this season has done something for you or healed something
in you, would you consider writing us a review here on iTunes? It would mean so, so, so much. We really, really, really read every review and we take everything into consideration. Today on the podcast, we are going into a nuanced conversation of masturbation. And it's funny because when you say the word masturbation, immediately people are like, oh my gosh, what? You're talking about what? I'm sorry, the M word. Like they're like, what? It's such a
taboo topic that's rarely discussed. I mean, when was the last time you heard your pastor or a pastor talk about the word masturbation? It is this subject that many people struggle with. In fact, the majority of people struggle with, but it's not something that's often addressed, at least from the pulpit or in many public settings in the Christian world. And so today we wanted to have an open and honest dialogue. And I'll be really honest.
I have shared things on this episode or I'm about to that you're about to listen that I have never shared before. And so did JJ. And it was really powerful. We invited our friend Riley Kehoe, previously sull on to the podcast to talk about this topic. And what I loved about this conversation was it was just a conversation, you know, many of our podcasts
where we bring on guests are like an interview. And we did ask Riley questions, but what I loved is it was really also a conversation between the three of us about our struggles, the female lens of masturbation versus the male lens and struggle of masturbation. And it's really, really good. You guys, I really hope you walk away from today with further healing, with clarity, with feeling God's love tangibly on this subject where it often
feels really shameful to talk about or even bring up. I hope you feel really seen. And I hope you feel empowered to have more of these conversations with your friends. That being said, if this episode or another episode really has struck you this season, it really helped you. Would you send that episode to a friend or friends because it really helps us to get this podcast in the hands of more people? Today we have Riley Kehoe on the show and Riley was born in England, raised in New Zealand
and now embraces America as her home while Riley recently lived in a tiny camper. She most recently returned from the surfboard training in the Maldives and is resettling back in San Diego. In January 2023, Riley married a wonderful man named Jack and you guys, their story is phenomenal. We were actually at their wedding. Riley totally did it the unexpected and I love their entire love story. You guys Riley also always talks about having
courage to do the hard things. She is a writer, a blogger, a speaker. She has incredible things over on her blog and on her Instagram. She loves speaking to the heart of singles. I really encourage you to follow her and to really support what Riley is doing because she's doing incredible things. Recently she just even was on Ted. So I'm just so proud of her. And so without further ado, let's have this conversation with Riley Kehoe.
All right guys, what's up? Welcome back to the heart of dating podcast. We have our girl Riley Kehoe. Hi, everybody. Hey, girls. This is so fun. And also if you're watching us on YouTube, this is the first time I've ever used a handheld mic. So if my audience helps me for any reason, that is why I mean, it's like a perfect MC. Everybody. I know. Feel like this is a game show or something. Like hello. And the next guest behind door number
two is Riley Kehoe. And the guest right here to my left is the bad guy. That's the one that you don't want to open. The dog Tom left. Oh my gosh. Wow. That was a great awkward start, Kate. But I'm just ready to get going. Riley, are you excited to be here today? I'm so excited. I cannot wait to talk about this subject. I can't wait either. And first before we get in, your last name just changed. Just got married. Tell our people, they probably
know who you are already because we've done things together. But if they don't, I want them to be connected to you, Ms. Riley with courage. So tell them about who you are, what you do. Yes. I just got married three months ago to an amazing man named Jack. And I am originally from New Zealand. So if you detect any acts and that's where it's from. And I grew up on a farm in New Zealand. It was self-sustainable. We would eat all of our own
like produce off the land. It was so fun. I moved to LA about five years ago to do my masters. And my whole mission in life after surviving a tsunami when I was 10 is how to live a courageous life. Because as you can imagine, I'm surviving a tsunami. I had so much fear. And I had fear of the ocean. And my parents six months after the tsunami enrolled me in beach lifeguard training as a way to learn how to face my fears. And so I have just set my life on helping
people face their fears and to live a courageous life. I love that. Your story, your testimony is so powerful. And now, like the way you also encourage so many singles to through your current story and meeting Jack and just everything is so beautiful. I mean, I've been getting all your emails. I don't remember when I signed up, but I'm like, oh, I don't remember an email from Riley. It's so good. You're supposed to be so encouraging. And Jack is like,
you guys are doing some ministry stuff together now. It's phenomenal. Oh, we love Jack. I know. And if it wasn't clear, you know, you guys definitely carry that anointing of, I would say edification. It's not just nice words and fluffy stuff. It's like soul encouragement to the body and the church, which, you know, I don't know about you, but I think like if we're like our thirst as a church and as a body right now is dying for encouragement.
It's dying for like soul to soul, like life giving energy and encouragement because unfortunately, I think right now we're in a place where we're mimicking cultural practices and maybe the way we practice accountability or talk to each other. And it's so lifeless in the sense of it's just vengeance. It's just economy. There's no pointing to something greater. You know, when we turn and flee from sexual immorality, we're not just running away pointlessly. We're
running to something with the same fervor. And I think you guys instill that fervor. Like don't just stop. Don't just avoid. Don't just have some kind of hope, like have hope in the king, have hope in the one who wrote your story before you existed. So I just let when you guys talk and when you guys pray and when you guys minister, it really is a blessing to the people around you guys. So good. Oh, so encouraging, honey. Thank you. You have
a gift of encouragement. I appreciate it. Well, I mean, from one encourageer to another, I just really enjoy being around you guys. And I know everyone does too. That's because you guys give life. You know, you give life. Yeah. That's so good. Well, guys, I'm laughing because Teddy's literally on the recorder right now. And I was like, is he going to stop the recording? Because if you guys can't
see this, but both the dogs are in the room at the moment. We actually record with them in the room because then they get they go crazy when they're not in the room. But it can be hilarious because they're like, what? Hey, what's going on, guys? So if you see them pop up on our laps, that's what's going on. They're getting phomo. Okay. Today we're talking about a really important conversation, a really important topic. You
probably saw it in the title. We're talking about masturbation. And first of all, for every person listening, this is a vulnerable subject. And it's a subject that often contains a lot of shame. In fact, the word itself is often not said. I'm even if you struggle with masturbation, there's a big likelihood that you potentially have never even said the word out loud. Like you just keep it so to yourself. And I know that that relates to me and some of my journey.
And so I just, I really are hoping prayer as we were coming into today is just that we can approach the subject with so much grace and love and kindness for every person listening, especially for anybody who's like already who is afraid to even click this episode because they're like, what are they going to say to me? Is this going to draw me into more shame or self hatred because of what has been going on behind the scenes? And so Riley, you have
done some awesome research on the subject. You have a personal story on the subject. You wrote a really cool article too on your blog about this. So I'm going to read some stats that you put in that article because it was so awesome. I drew some things from that. So you guys have to read the article. Okay. But you wrote, according to the world's largest masturbation survey survey done in 2018 with 13,000 respondents age 18 to 74 across 18 countries.
Here are some stats. Okay. 95% of men and 89% of women masturbate regularly. That means regularly in this case means once per week. Okay. 95% of men 89% of women. 40% of men and 22% of women masturbate daily. 40% and 22% daily and 70% of married couples masturbate. First of all, one thing I want to just say from reading those stats, which I find is really interesting and why I'm so grateful we have two females talking today is that we often
think of the word masturbation or pornography and we think of men. Like I don't know. Like I just feel like that's often the societal connotation. You say porn. You definitely, like most people go immediately to like thinking this is mainly a male issue. But masturbation especially I feel like that's a word where we often pin it as mainly a male issue, not a female struggle. And this stat literally says there's only 6% difference between men
and women who masturbate once per week. Now I'm assuming this study wasn't necessarily Christian or anything of that nature, but this still gives us a really good picture of masturbation. I'm sure it's not that different to be honest, even within the Christian culture. So masturbation is not just a male thing. And let's just start the conversation there. Because I think that's something for me that like I think that a lot of people ask like,
hey, will you talk more about masturbation? Especially like my female listeners because they're like, there's so much stuff for guys, but there's nothing really for, there's not a lot for the females. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's so true. And when there's not a lot of voices that are out there speaking about it, it's so it becomes harder for you to go to your friends and say, hey, I'm really struggling about this. And I remember my friend,
Janine, I were speaking at a conference. And these two girls went to us separately. Like Janine was talking to one girl and I was talking to another girl. And they both admitted the struggle with masturbation. And they were best friends for the last decade. And neither of them had told each other. Wow. And so we got the honor of like bringing them to each other. And they got to be like, I'm struggling with this. And they're in the other
girls like, wait, me too. And even in that one step of confessing it, like a always say confession is the first step towards healing. Yes. Because even just confessing it as a woman that you struggle to your friend is like one of the most courageous and best decisions you can do. And you can realize that you are not alone. Yes. You know, because I feel like for guys and baby, you can tune in on this one or like weigh in because I feel like
for guys, you tell me if I'm wrong. So I'm not a man. Is it more of like a generalized, if you're a guy, you probably assume that another guy, Christian or not has masturbated. Like, is there almost like an assumption in the culture of men that all guys have masturbated at some point? Because that is not the culture for women. Like, so that's why I'm just curious. Yeah. I think within Christian culture, it's honestly still taboo. And you know, what's
shocking about those numbers and I'm guessing that was a secular study. Yeah, it was. So, you know, if you had to do a Christian study, I honestly, if I had to guess, I can't imagine the numbers are incredibly different. Right. Yeah. In the sense of, I think it's the one thing amongst men that we all kind of know in our hearts that we're all kind of struggling with. And yeah, it's still taboo to talk about. So just as much as it takes
vulnerability and tons of courage and as a woman, it's the same thing for men. And it's very, very few men get to that point of vulnerability with one another. Right. But would you say within that, there's almost like an assumption that another guy has probably masturbated at some point. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Do you think women have the same assumption? No. No. Like that is true. I can never see her. Yeah. Right. Like I truly, okay, here's
some of my story and we can open up because I've never shared this anywhere. But I'll just share bits and see what happens throughout our episode today. But I had never really, for me, I didn't really know that women could did or could masturbate. And this is even when I was sexually active, to be honest with you, like I had sex for the first time with age of 16. And I actually didn't know about masturbation from the woman side at all.
Like it never really crossed my mind until probably the past like eight years somewhere in that vein. I actually remember somebody I knew brought it up a girl who who in this in a either Bible group setting, I forget exactly what setting it was. It was with girls. This girl just super bold girl just confessed to us. She's like, I am struggling with masturbation.
I'm like, I need to fast from this because it's really a deep struggle for me. And I was like, whoa, like as soon as she said that, I was like, oh my gosh, I've never thought about women struggling with this. This is before I went on my own journey of in fact, struggling with this. But I had never thought of it. Like up until that point, that was in my mid, I'm 33. That was probably around 25, you know, and up until 25, it never crossed my mind
that women struggle with masturbation. Like it was wild when she said that, I was like, it was like, I why didn't show her I was shocked by any means. But personally, my mind, I'm like, oh, wow, I never thought about it. Even though I was previously in my life sexually active at that point, I wasn't, but I just never thought about it. And then lo and behold, it was like a few years after that or in around that time that I started
struggling with masturbation myself. But the point being that up until 25, it never would have crossed my mind that this another girl in front of me would be struggling with masturbation. What changed that for you? After this girl said that, I was like, wow. And then, and then when I began tempted in my own private, it honestly, what happened for me is when I started getting tempted in masturbation, it was actually in seasons where I was not
dating men, which I had a lot of those. And I never was tempted originally when I was struggling with this, I wasn't really tempted when I was dating a guy because I felt like connection, which we'll get into. I felt connection with this man. And I didn't feel like I needed anything else. Okay. But when I didn't have that kind of romantic connection with a partner dating relationship, that's when I ended up struggling. Yeah. So what about
you? For me, so for me, I served when I was like maybe like 12 or something. And honestly, at the time, I had no idea what I was doing. I was just like, I was so curious. You're like, body, you're like, oh, this is fun. Like, I don't know what's happening. And I didn't know for years that is what I was doing. And, and I'd say as you, like, I didn't have people that that were talking about it. So I literally just was like, Oh, okay, this
feel good. So I'm doing it. And it wasn't until my mom took me around this like weekend called the talk. And she kind of like hyped it up. And I'm like, what is this? I'm going to call the fuck. Did you ever make any idea? I know, I know idea. I went to like a Christian primary school in New Zealand. And I was so isolated. I didn't even know what sex was. Like, I had no idea. So my mom and I go away on this weekend. We rent this cute Airbnb
in the mountains. And she tells me what sex is for the first time. And when I heard it, I'm like, I looked around like that is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And then she told me about masturbation. And she's like, it's okay if you do it. Just don't get addicted to it. And I was like, when she said that, I was like, Oh, that's what I've been doing. You're like, oh, this age, I was probably like still early, like,
13 when she did when she gave me this talk. But there was like a little bit of time period where I was doing it. I didn't know what I was doing. It's kind of funny, you know, you say that because I discovered it just like not really even, you know, with any guidance. It's just, it was like a felt very natural and like left to your own devices as a teenager, hitting puberty with hormones. It just kind of happens. Yeah. Like it is kind of bizarre in the
sense that you stumble into it. At least from a male perspective, I find that pretty common. But this sounds like a something like that almost rarely happens, right? Between mothers and daughters especially. And even between father and sons, especially in the church, right? That opportunity to even talk about sex and be introduced to it and even have like masturbation talked about with
your parents. Yeah. But do you feel like so? I love what she told you in the sense of leading up to the next question and what everybody asks their favorite asked when it comes to sexual questions and boundaries is, you know, is black and white questions. So like according what your mom said, you can do it. Just don't get addicted to it. Would you say in general, is masturbation wrong? And you know, if you take advice like that, you can do it all you want. Just don't get addicted to
it. Like at what point do you, you know, start to draw a line saying, this is where masturbation crosses a line where I just don't see it glorifying God in any kind of capacity. Yeah, I would love to know both your thoughts on this. But I asked my mom later why she said that to me and she said she wanted to say it so that I could have my own journey of discovering whether it was right or wrong. And for me to take shame out of the equation. And which is very intentional of her because in freedom,
we get to decide what we want. And we get to decide how we act and the choices we make in the darkness that nobody knows happens when we have the freedom to decide what we want to do. And I just wanted before I answer that question, like, is it right or wrong? I want to say two things. One, I want to say that God, He created you with sexual desires. And He loves that part of you. Yeah. And it's such a beautiful part of your identity. And it is not something to be ashamed of.
It is something to be proud of. It is a part of who you are. And I really think that the world perverts our sexuality, the church shames it, but the kingdom celebrates it. And your sexuality is beautiful. It is a gift, but it's kind of like a fire. And this fire, you have to decide how you want to manage it. And the second thing I would say is that I think when it comes to subject, it is
not black and white. It's gray. And so that's why it's been hard to have this conversation because nobody can like, we can't really figure out what we're still figuring out what is right and wrong. Because it doesn't seem to be the subject that's so easy to decide on. And so it's kind of instead this measurement of like healthy to unhealthy. And so the two sides of the coin, is it right? And is it wrong? Yes. So there's one side where, and I'd love for you guys to pipe in whenever,
but there's one side where it's like, it's okay. Some people believe that it's okay because there is a place that you can masturbate as a healthy practice because it's done for sexual release rather than sexual gratification. Right. And so it's like the masturbating without lusting. Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about this podcast. Yes. So it's masturbating without an object or person that you're doing it without even thinking of anything. Which I have met someone that
did that. And I was like, okay, I was never able to do that. Like in order for me to masturbate and like orgasm, I had to be imagining something or even more than that. Like had a few times in the past watch porn. Like, you know, like there had to be something that got me there. Yes. Yes. In the past, I had watched outlander. I'm just going to be really honest. That is so horrible to be right now. But I'm just being really honest like things that made me struggle. But also, okay,
I will say this is like vulnerable. I've never, I don't even think I've told JJ this. But so one thing as I was wrestling through this years ago, and I'm going to be honest with the people here, this wasn't like I wrestled with this years and years and years ago. This is like, I wrestled with this even while I was doing a heart of dating podcast. Just really honest. You need to know that even as a leader, like we still wrestle with things and they were not perfect.
And there's great things. And I love that your mom allowed you to go on your own journey. Because I do think this needs to be a journey that people go on and really seek to understand. Like, is this a win for me or not? And where am I? Where do I land with God on this? Like very very personal, you know, otherwise, it's very easy to just like shame ourselves and our bodies,
which is also not a good thing. And then hide from our bodies. And so for me, I had heard this teaching of, okay, you can masturbate without lusting, for example, and and maybe that could be a win for you. And I heard even somewhere else, like what if you you take that to the point of you masturbate and you focus on God, okay? And this is on super strange probably. But like that is what somebody who talks about this often was talking about with me and on a personal level. Because
I was like, how do you like how did truly I'm curious? Like, do you really is it possible to masturbate without thinking of a person or a like something that stirs you in a sexual way? And I was like, because I just don't think that's really possible. And I had a conversation this person. And she's like, yeah, I mean, try to focus on God and like your love for God. And I was like, okay, so I'll be honest, I tried that. Okay. I did. I was like, I want to see if this is
like a possible thing. I'm really curious. And it just didn't it's still, I don't know. It felt weird to me. Like that I'm not saying if you do that, like that that's wrong. In fact, I know somebody else who's a leader at a different church, like who does do that? That's that's actually a male. And he thinks that glorifies God. And I'm not here to judge anybody who does that. I'm here to say for my experience of trying to focus on nothing or focus in this case on God while masturbating,
it didn't it wasn't a win for me. It didn't it still didn't like I can't 100% without certain T say that my mind didn't also straight other things. Yeah. And I think a huge teller is how do you feel after? Yes. And that was the that was the thing for me. So like I was so I would ask everybody ask everybody like is it right? Is it wrong? Like I was like I don't care if this is an awkward conversation. I want to know. Right. And in doing that, I also realized like when I
like had finished, I didn't feel good. It felt like I was grieving. And I was like there's something there. And it feels like conviction and guilt mixed in one. And so that's why I was like maybe this isn't healthy for me. And maybe this is lost. And maybe this is a compromise of what God has designed for my like sexuality. And knowing also that in our Christian faith, there is a part of our faith that has encouraged us to be like self denial where it's like we
are going to sacrifice because we know that God's way is hard, but it's so much greater. And as I prayed for it, like I wrote in my journal like for months about it. Like in the first time I wrote about it, I was like M word. You know, because I was like, I'm someone read my journal I don't want to. But I was like, God, I'm going to go on the journey with you. And I want you to lead me to a place that I'm convicted that this is either good for me or it's not good for me. And one of my like,
I call my rule of life. It's a question that I ask in every situation to help me make a decision is does this elevate or compromise my relationship with the Lord? And I realized that it compromised my relationship with the Lord because afterwards I would feel further away from him. I didn't feel closer to him. Yeah. That's a great, great like litmus and a question to ask yourself.
You were going to say something, baby. I heard you. Yeah. I just, I think like when it comes to this sexual boundaries, you know, the pursuit of intimacy as a couple, especially a dating couple. Yeah. You know, we're just so quick. It's such a great reflection of the human heart. Yeah. Because what's the question that we ask how far is too far? Right. Where can I draw the
line in the sand? Yeah. Versus when we went, if our life was completely oriented around the litmus test and the question, the rule of life that you just asked, which is, does this advance my fellowship with the King with God or does this detract? And you know, really the secondary question is does this glorify God or doesn't not? And when we start to ask that question, you know, for the 99% of things of life that specifically the Bible doesn't talk about marijuana. It's a great
example. Like it's such a great question to ask on these little questions of life. Is this okay? There's this not well, does it glorify God or not? Yeah. And there's a pretty common standard of what glorifies God and what doesn't. Because I think it does. You do start to border and what I like about what you guys said is eventually it is a personal journey. Yeah. I've decided what is and what is not. But I don't also believe that it's just a free
for all. Everyone can just determine what's their truth and what's not. There is a truth to abide in. Well, it isn't ethic to abide in. I guess the tough part about what you're saying. Because I agree with you is there is a truth to abide in. And if we are all communing with the same God and we're all uniquely wired differently. Like my my journey with God and physical boundaries and certain things might be different than another person. For example, like I may have a horrible,
I may have a horrible past with just making out leads me to have sex with the guy. And so that happens to me over and over and over again. And I realize that for me based on my design and my convictions with God, I'm not even in a kiss tool marriage. But then there's another person who let's say it's Riley. I'm just using his example. Who's like, hey, I actually really know my convictions and my boundaries. And I'm very firm on them. And I'm firm on I know what I'm thinking
about and what I'm not and where the line is to glorify God. And I can kiss and and maybe make out a little bit on occasion like with my person and not it doesn't lead me to this. But you have those two different scenarios, right? Where it's like, if you make it prescriptive, then we would both have to do the exact same thing because it needs. It's only one way to glorify God. Right. And the perspective of what you're saying is that like, it's nuance because that's a very personal between
Riley and I if that's our situation or if that's true. But like what you're saying is is there. Oh, I don't want to lose my train of thought. Like is there an ethic? Is there an ethic? Is there some kind of standard that we all abide in at some point? Right. Because at what point are you? Is it like, well, is this person really communing with God in that way and hearing from God that like they can see for their partner before marriage? Because I just don't believe
biblically that's necessarily like having sex before marriage is a healthy thing. Right. But they could say, Hey, I have communed with God and this is okay. So that's like, do you know what I'm saying? Yes. That's as tough. Yeah. It is. And I was just thinking of Philippians 4.8. Like, keep your mind on what is true. Pure right. Holy, friendly and proper. And I think if we get given two opportunities, one, like masturbate and two, not masturbate, we want to pick the option that
may cool us to become something greater. And I believe not masturbating cools us to become something greater. Like if we're given two options, like why not choose the harder one and go kind of more extreme? Yeah. Because it's also going to challenge our character so much. Yeah. And remember that God is so much more about like heart change rather than then behavior change. Right. And so I think that's why the subject has so many question marks because it's deep is something like in
your heart, is this you thinking what is proper and pure and holy? Yes. Exactly. And that is, that comes down to only you know your intentions. When we talk about modesty, we say modesty is a
position of the heart. It's it's something more inward, even more so than it is outward. And so if somebody's wearing something tight fitted, like for example, like or that looks a little more, like they're showing off more than maybe somebody else, I can't sit here and say, oh, they're being immodest per se like I don't know if the position of their heart is humility or not. I can't judge if they are wearing that outfit to draw in people's attention or not.
Like in one sense, like sure there's a cultural standard in a way, right? Like if somebody's not wearing a top, that's going to be different than if somebody's wearing because that's not culturally appropriate in America, right? But if but like I don't know if I see someone's outfit, what their intention is. And we only know our true true true intentions if we're being honest with ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I but I do think I love that you guys do point back to like, what do we
abide in? What's that rule of life that you abide in? And at some point, like we share that same cornerstone of faith, you know, that we are abiding in the same question to be asked. But, you know, Riley, I think one thing that you do and I think this is starting to change in the church is championing our sexual nature. And I know for me, I don't know how it was for you guys.
The first time I started hearing this, especially out of a evangelical and Southern background, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is some new age stuff like deathly life, hyper sexual, like you tell me you're just going to impress your sexual nature so you can do whatever you want and masturbate like no, you know, but then he kind of starts to say, okay, wait a second, let's start at the Bible and see when God is just talking about sexual desire and nature, unadulterated in the
sense where it's lustful and fulfilling self. What does he say? And so he says it's very good. Right. But for you, Riley, where would you say that it was something that you learned and started to champion because you were very quick off the bat in this interview to really set the tone like, hey, sexual nature is a great thing that got created within us. Here's where it starts to go south and here's a way that we can kind of champion and like you just said, maybe self deny
in order to build character and grow and our faith. I, I, I in the journey of learning how to come to a place of masturbation wasn't even in my life. And that was so cool when I got to that place, it gave me so much freedom. But in that wrestle that happened beforehand, I had so much empathy on myself. And I think that's the thing is like grace upon ourselves because God designed us as sexual beings.
And how I started to champion that side of myself was realizing that that side of myself was never bad. It's just like it was just maybe wrong timing or it's like the fire that I'm letting out. I'm like letting it burn something that is not yet to meant to burn. But the fire was always a good thing. The sexuality of you was always a good thing. And, and doing so like when I took shame out the equation and threw buckets of grace on myself, that's when I found the freedom. Like I found the
freedom not when I was like stop doing it, Riley, stop doing it. I found the freedom when I would finish and say to myself, Riley, God has never loved you more than this moment. When I broke God's love into the equation and knew that God designed me with something beautiful. And when I claimed the beauty of how God designed me, then I had so much confidence to live a life where masturbation
wasn't in it. But I was still more sexually healthy than I was before. Yes. Well, because you are removing shame from the equation, which is what, as we see in the Garden of Eden in Genesis, what the enemy uses to separate man from God. He uses shame. They were naked and then they covered up and they felt shame. Like they were then at first they were naked and unashamed and then they
covered up because they they felt shame. And that's the where the enemy especially when it comes to our bodies and sexuality, I feel like the enemy is like, let me go in there because it's so tender. It's so personal. And so when you're combating, some if you decide, hey, masturbation isn't a win for me. It's really not possible for me to masturbate and not think about a person or lust about something or look at something while I do that. Then then you would lean on the
side of masturbation is not a win for me. And so then you go to, okay, well, how do I combat that? And just like you said, like taking shame out of the equation is so important and powerful because I mean, it goes the same way with when we talk to people about when they cross physical boundaries in their relationship of boundaries they set. Because if you just use shame, like the first time
I had sex, I felt so ashamed. I was 16 years old. It was horrible. We went immediately the next day, locked ourselves in each other's rooms in our in my room and read every young woman's battle and every young man's battle, okay, it was ridiculous. And we didn't tell anyone it was so much shame eating us alive, right? And guess what kept happening? We kept having sex. Yeah. And we kept feeling awful. And we kept having sex. And we kept feeling awful. And there was because it was all shame was
trying to drive us stopping. And then when we couldn't stop, there's more shame. And well, so that's why this is such a big deal because I love brain A Brown. But at the same time, what? Well, here's the prayers, the problem. You know, the anti-shame narrative that's kind of become so popular is great, but it's still full of short because it's not saying we don't we no longer only don't shame ourselves, but we rely on the grace of God to fulfill us and sustain us. And shame is such a big deal.
And I love that we've really got a great grip on how devastating it is because if you think about it from the the perspective of the enemy, not only does it damage us, but it's the prison that keeps us trapped within the same simple cycle. And that's a big deal, right? If we want to pursue holiness and fellowship with Christ, the shame and the cyclical nature of saying in a simple pattern because shame ultimately says that I can get this I can get out of this myself as well. I can
rely on self to fix this. And we're stuck. Whereas Grace says, Hey, I am not enough. I'm not strong enough. And more importantly, like there is a holy spirit in a way that I can embrace my sexual nature. And more importantly, rely on Christ to fulfill me. Yeah, that's really good, which is a huge deal
because that's where this kind of cultural anti-same narrative falls short. Right? And, but I want to ask you guys, since we're talking about masturbation and you pointed this earlier, I've always wondered
what is this difference between what we would say is a godly conviction of our sin, especially say we do try to focus on nothing and like your friend and God's love and it gets out of, and you know, the train goes off the tracks and we fantasize which I love with Jesus as the Pharisees, which is if you've even lusted and committed it in your heart, you've committed the act of adultery. So it is
that's the kind of regard we take it. It's really high regard. But at what point is it godly conviction versus that human shame and enemy shame that keeps us stuck? It's a great question. I feel like you said it so well. Like the way you treated yourself in those moments is to me how it's a godly conviction that is first filled with love. It's first filled with love, kindness, compassion, and I believe deep reverence for god. Like that, let's be honest,
here's where it lands for me. Okay, there were moments where I had struggle with masturbation, where I'm going to church, I'm reading the Bible, I'm talking the things, but if I'm being really honest, there was a lack of deep reverence and respect for god personally, because if god is is ever present always, but if but we have to intentionally be connected to the vine, we have to intentionally pray without ceasing right and invite him into our spaces like he is always there,
but we can miss his presence all the time. If we're just doing our he's never going to force himself onto you if you're not open and willing. And so like I think for me, there was like I could do all the things, but it was like a check, it was like almost compartmentalized. It's like church on Sunday speaking here, like devotional here, but there wasn't like a true bringing god into my days
and and also truly revering him. And I think for me, like that had to really be a deep like the deeper conviction, the true godly conviction came when I really revered how much god loved me and revered god for really truly who he is, which is a wild phenomenal, beautiful thing. If we look even in revelation, like it's insane, like to think of the picture of god, like it's wild to think about the heavenly hosts. And so, but I just didn't allow myself many times in my life to really
revered god in that way of like, wow, this is god almighty. And so I could talk about that. So Reverend, so that's a great thing. Would you add and I and you said something earlier too on the reflection of it that you grieve the spirit. Yeah. And what point would you like unpack that for us? Would you say that was conviction, not shame in the sense? And what's the difference? Yeah, totally. I think I think there when we look to God, we ask him for help on an answer. He does, he does give us
help and he answers the question. But shame often happens when we know what is right. And then we don't do it. And so it's like, it's like the on our own when we keep doing the thing that god spoke, but then we disobey. And he's like, and when we disobey, that's when the shame we put the shame on ourselves. But there was this moment of conviction followed by moments of shame. The conviction came from god, the shame comes from us. And I remember somebody saying to me, like Riley, you,
like don't think of a pink elephant. And I was like, well, man, I'm being a pink elephant. And it's the same thing as like when we say don't do this thing. But that's not going to help us. We have to put our eyes on Jesus. And like I found so much freedom when I actually started praying for God's strength. When I realized like when you realize your human weakness, but in that weakness is opportunity for God's strength, when I actually wrote my journal, God, I cannot do this
without you. I need your strength. And then his strength flooded. But when I'm trying to do it on my own, do it on my own, shame, shame, shame. But then finally when I invited him, God, who is a gentleman who waits at the door of her heart, but we'll not step in and listen, invited. When I finally invited him in, then he was like, finally, now my strength will flow through you. Yeah, that's so powerful.
So good. Oh, yeah. Okay. So now I have a question. The people are listening and they're saying, okay, this is amazing. Hopefully, hopefully you guys are home. I love this conversation. But you know, I think that there's a lot of people that are like, okay, well, then how do I start stewarding a life without masturbation? If I've been masturbating, if this has been a struggle for me, and I'm going to try to go on a route of maybe not doing that anymore,
how do I start stewarding a life without it? Oh, that's so good. I'm so excited. I love this question. This is where people are like, okay, yes. Yes. Okay. This is the practical nitty-gritty of how we do it. Yes. So first of all, when you feel the desire to masturbate, you're desired typically last for 20 minutes.
Oh, I don't know that. What you need to do is just extract yourself for 20 minutes. You know how like when a baby cries and then mom's like, oh, look, here's a toy and tries to distract them. We have to be kind of the same thing with our own desires. I was just doing that last night. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, distract yourself. Yeah. Exactly. So know that like you, if you push past the twain minis, throw on your shoes, go for a walk, like find something to do in those 20 minutes.
The second thing would be, as I showed the story before about the two girls that confess to each other is like, confess to your friends. I know that's hard. I know that takes so much courage. But you are going to find that you are not alone. And even more than that, take a next step and take an accountability partner. And when I started to take it really seriously that I wanted to stop masturbating, I picked one friend and I would literally like, cool, hard. I'd be like, ah, like,
I'm surely with this. Can you help me? And she'd be like, all right, let's go for a run. I'll meet you here. Like, and it was so hard to like even text someone or cool someone when I could feel the urge. But I needed to bring other people in me because it helped, like God gave us the body that we can lean on it. Yeah. I want to just say something on that moment because I remember the moment for me where a friend of mine and I started, I have a bit of a cold, you guys. So
I'm starting to sound very navely. So apologies for the listeners. But okay, I remember on that note, it was super powerful. Confession is super powerful because when I did start to struggle with this, I was like, wow, like this is a struggle. And it like it went in waves where like sometimes it was like a lot. And sometimes it was like few at far between. And anyway, so eventually I was like, I just this doesn't feel like, oh, win for me. It doesn't feel like something I want to be doing.
And I literally haven't told a single person that I am struggling with this. And so my friend and I started doing our own discipleship groups, just she and I where we would intentionally meet just the two of us. We had like, it was actually derived from John Tyson in Church of the City of New York. And it was a phenomenal like structure for discipleship. But one of the steps in that that you're supposed to do together every time is confession. And so I never forget it was
so powerful because that is powerful to confess to a trusted person in this process. And so I'll never forget one of our discipleship mornings. I was like, I confessed it. I was like, girl, I have something to confess for sure. And I feel a bit uncomfortable because I've never really shared this. But I need to I need to share with you. And like I had no idea what she was going to say, right? I was like, I don't know because we had never talked about it. Females don't talk about
this. They need to talk about it. Okay. So I I mean, men too, like men too, like as in men, you be shocked at how little men talking confess about it with one another. That's true. That's see that's yeah. And I will tell you my DMs get filled with this topic. Like, hey, I really struggle with this. Can you do an episode on this topic? And so confessing to a trusted person is so important. I share this with her. And she is like, well, I guess I have to confess as well.
Is she? Yeah. I love that. Back, right back at me, like the same thing. And I was like, really? You know, like I'm thinking she's going to be like, wow, okay. Okay. Like yeah, absolutely. I'll come alongside of you and pray for this. But she was like me too. And then we set up a system. Like you're talking about, right? Of like, okay, when we feel like that, something we want to do, how can we text one another or like keep each other accountable? You know? And I was like,
it helps so much because I think we did a certain amount of time I'm forgetting. Like where was like, we checked in us very frequently for like 30 days or 60 days or something. We kept it very consistent. And we gave each other full permission. This was important. We gave each other full permission to just check it on the subject. Yeah. And we'd be like, hey, how's it going in that department? You know, or whatever. And we just were like, hey, I can have full, like full autonomy
to ask you whenever you have full permission to ask me whenever. And that's just, it's not weird because I'm giving you full permission. And it was awesome. And that was a huge help in my journey. So I just wanted to comment on that because it's really powerful. Yeah. No, that's so good. And even to add a few other practical tips is self-awareness is so key because the thing is masturbation is often like, or us escaping something, us numbing something. And like for me, I really is like, if I
felt shame, that was my response to it. And so often there's a feeling or a trigger. And then we end up doing this. And so like asking yourself, like, when is it that I want this like what I call like happy shot? And why is it that I want it? What was I feeling? What was I doing in the moment? And like, you need to figure out, like, understand yourself a bit more so that you can like, safeguard yourself from being in that situation again. And like, what is it that you're thinking
about when you're doing it? Like just ask yourself those hard questions, grab your journal right down the answers. Yeah, that's good. And then another thing is that as animals, like unlike animals, we have something called a prefrontal cortex, which means that we have the ability to tell ourselves what to do. And what I mean by that is an animal has a desire, they just act upon it. We can ask humans, God create us to have a desire and choose to act upon it or not. So the way that we
are designed, like God has given you the ability in your mind to find freedom from this. Yeah. And then you're not an animal. Yeah. That's why we are above the animals. Yeah. You're not an animalistic desire. I love that. Literally built into our design. And I'd actually argue the addiction that we all claim is maybe quite not as strong as what we give it credit. As in, you know, Tim Keller gives a great sermon. And he goes, I guarantee you,
you are not as addicted. If I, if I walked in right around that time and I had, he goes really extreme and I had a gun to your head and I say, if you do this, you will die. I guarantee you, you probably won't do it. You would, yeah. And the height of anything you would stop, meaning you can stop. If you so choose and the other choice is great enough, the consequence is great enough in your mind. You can stop. And then you have the self control. Like you are not so addicted
to the point that when it comes to life or death, you cannot stop and help it. Yeah. That's so good. Which is a mind breaking, right? And from everything we've been told, I'm so helpless. I'm so helpless. Right. It's, you're actually quite not as addicted as what we say. I agree, babe. Like I also believe so much of this journey is an order to, if you want to life more free of masturbation, like you have to come at it and power it. If you come at it, de empowered, you're not going to conquer
it. You know, you have to come at it. Which is the empowered, empowered. Like I can do this. Like I have created by God this part of my brain that can help me to actually decide or not to decide. I just because I have this desire doesn't mean I have to act on it. There's power and just knowing that. Yeah. It's like, okay, wow, I'm not helpless to this. Right. Well, I have a question because I know you're, well, in the middle of your answer. So I know who we just love it.
Rrupting your answer. I love it. Do you want to go ahead and finish out? And okay, let me just add a few more points is one, if masturbation typically happens for you on, on the bed, then like if you're on the bed, literally just jump off the bed only to side, I'm going to be only on the bed if I'm sleeping. Right. Another thing is charge your phone outside your room. Because a lot of people for masturbation, it's masturbation plus pornography. And so like, take, taking your phone or your laptop
outside of your room is really going to help. And then the last thing is just like, celebrate the small victories and have grace on yourself. Yeah. But I think out of all of those, the top ones is self-awareness and confession. Yeah. Confession is powerful. Yeah. What we say all the time is confession to God is for repentance and forgiveness. Confession among brothers or confession among sisters is for healing. That's good. That's really good. Right. And there's such a fundamental
difference. Yeah. If you're only confessing God, well, I don't think you're going to see, but like, there's a reason why until you confess amongst out loud people and brothers and body, you would almost, I mean, you guys tell me, I would say maybe less than one percent of the time I actually saw a victory and changed my life. Maybe almost never until I admitted it out loud amongst body, I never saw victory. Yeah. Because like, you plus you is going to equal masturbation,
but you plus humans plus God is going to equal victory. Yeah. Exactly. Can I add one thing to your answer to you? It was so powerful. Just something that for me that helped in these moments was in addition to the self-awareness piece that for me, what when I felt like I wanted to masturbate, typically for me, it was something to do. Like I said earlier, I really didn't struggle with this as much in relationship. It was when I was out of relationship. And for me, it was really tied to
I want intimacy. So I want some sort of connection. And so like, that desire is not a bad desire. Like the sexual desire, like we've talked about, is not bad. But for me, I wanted connection or I felt lonely or I felt insecure, right? There was something that I was trying to numb. And you said that earlier. So when I felt tempted to masturbate or if I did end up masturbating, I really took some inventory and like, what was I missing or what am I craving right now? Like, am I
lonely? Am I wanting connection? Do I feel insecure right now? Do like what is going on within me? Because and then once I can identify what that is, then I can actually do something else to help fill that void because I wasn't wanting to masturbate, right? So it's like, well, I need connection. And I need to have a very quality emotional connection with somebody tomorrow, a friend, you know? Like or sometime with God, right? But like, I need to literally, like, do I feel lonely? I need to get
out of the house tomorrow. Like, no, ifs, or buts, I need to do something. Like I have to connect with real life people. And it wasn't the answer for me was definitely not going out apps and just connecting with guys that is not the answer wasn't the answer for me. I was really thinking like, what do I need? And how can I fill that in a way that's life giving and positive and going
to be a win for me outside of masturbation? That's so good. I love that you noticed in yourself that there's a desire and you could replace, you could fill it with masturbation, but you decided to fill it with something else. Yeah. And that's why like masturbation mirrors are deep desire for intimacy.
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I always felt like the times of my life where I most struggled with not just masturbation, but you know, dating girls and really desiring and just make out and have companionship, validation, you know, from dating and attractive girl was most connected to my
lack of intimacy with God. The seasons and times where I had the least amount of intimacy or the seasons and times where I most struggled with sexual sin, masturbation, pornography, you know, dating and a silo, you know, dating and making out and crossing physical boundaries. Yeah. Like they were absolutely correlated. And for me, really, it was that emotional and spiritual desire for intimacy that was going completely unmet and I was filling it with the most close
tangible thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Which is a massive deal because, you know, I have a great question for you. What's the difference? Those are really great practical steps. What's the difference here between behavior modification though and choosing holiness, right? And I don't want to, I don't want to do this because I know it greaves the father's heart and I know there's something so much greater for me. And I'm not just fleeing from the sexual immorality or the
masturbation or the lustful thoughts. I'm pursuing something else. So what would you say is the difference between, you know, behavior modification. Yeah. And, you know, what we would call pursuing holiness. That's such a good question because I think without the why we're going to break
the rule. We have to know the reason. Yes. And so I love this question and I think that's why that this question welcomes our community into it because we can, we can search for the why, but often the why is found like when we talk to a friend and they're like, hey, like I do this because I know God calls me higher. And even just like right in your journal, like God convicts me of the reasons why you why you don't want me to do this or what you want. That's a bold
prayer. Yeah. Yeah. And like, well, I, that's exactly what I had to struggle with. And that's got like when I came to specifically a different topic, but similar physical boundaries with a man, which I had to really figure out like with men in general, like God, can you help me to like, what do you have for me in this area? Specifically, like asking those hard questions. I don't want to just not do these things because people around me or it's what I've been taught. Like I want like,
what do you have for me in this area? Yeah. And even writing down like ask yourself, why is it that I'm choosing? If you're, if you listen to this podcast and you're like, yes, I want to choose a life without masturbation. Ryan, your journal, why is it that I'm choosing or ask your friend, why is
it that we are choosing to not masturbate? And then write down some reasons. Like go on this journey of figuring out why and go to the word and be like, well, what does the word say about the my thoughts and like, what, how can I back up this, this decision? Yeah, that's so powerful girl. Yeah. Yeah. Super good. It is good. And I love how, you know, we, because here's my question for you. Could I nonbeliever a secular person who just for whatever reason wants to get rid of masturbation in their
life? Yeah. Follow those practical steps and find freedom from masturbation. You know, yeah. Like, because that would just be behavior modification 101, right? I don't like this behavior. I'm going to cut it out. But for us, there's such a spiritual element of the sense of, as we're not just trying to check a box of holiness, like we pursue and desire intimacy with the father and to please him so much so that we don't want anything to do is sin. We don't want anything to do with,
because that cuts us off from fellowship. I just, I love the father so much and being in his presence, I don't want to be cut off from his fellowship, right? And learning how to say no and building the muscle of self control is always a good thing. Yes. Amen. It's a great thing. It's a great thing. It's a tool we use in any year of our lives. It's like, if you learn to say no and you learn self control, then you're also going to learn how to have discipline. It comes to working out
or discipline in your job. Like you can transfer this to another subject. Yes. Gifts and this discipline. Okay. That reminds me of something else that helped me out my journey to self control. I was like, okay, if I'm struggling with self control in this, I'm struggling with self control overall, it seems. Yeah. Yeah. I started focusing on how can I have self control in other areas?
Like how can I start building this muscle of self control in other areas of my life? Like really focusing on it, because it was clearly a muscle that I just wasn't exercising very well in general. And focusing on like having like whatever it was in many different areas, like whether it was alcohol and food, whether it was like Netflix or time with God, whether it was like saying no and being true to my know, whether it was like just so many elements like going to the gym. I mean,
literally getting in a healthy routine. Yeah. That's so good. I was starting to practice self control in different areas. And that really also helps me practice self control in the area of masturbation. Because I was like, I'm actually just struggling with self control overall, I think. So let me start practicing really prioritizing the muscle of self control and like exercising that muscle in various areas of my life. I did help significantly. Yeah, I had a friend who was
like really struggled with this. And then I saw I'm like a few months later and I was like, oh, you still like struggling with it, which is crazy. I was even talking about it with a guy. But I was like, I'll talk about it with anybody like it's such an important subject. So good. And he was like, no, like I just him such living a vibrant like full life. I don't even have time to. And I was like, okay, let's go. Like he was just like, I am focusing on the things in my life.
Like, and I and and I think that's it. Like he had self control in all areas of his life and was like living a vibrant attractive life. And so he was like, I don't this is this doesn't seem like a good yeah, he has a good connected life. Like that's also a picture of like when you have a full connected life and you're like deeply connected to God and to people and to yourself. Like it's it doesn't come across your mind as much. You're like, oh, I feel fully fulfilled in all these other
areas. You know, it's so powerful. Um, I had a question for you as a guy because I know guys are going to listen to this. So this is me going off script because I don't really know much about this. Okay, not going to lie. I believe for women, we can not masturbate and nothing will happen to us physically. That's bad. But guys make a very big claim that if I don't masturbate,
I need a masturbate for stuff to be released. Okay, for sexual release, basically. So for guys that are listening to this who are like, well, this sounds great and all, but like literally, so it this needs to go somewhere. Okay, like, I don't know. What would you say to guys? Because I don't believe the same thing happens for women. Like we don't have a buildup that just
needs to be released in the same way. And if you're a sex doctor, let me know if I'm wrong. But I feel like for guys, they're like for sexual release, a lot of men are like, well, I literally need to because it builds up. You know, I just for those guys, I would first let them know that one, like I am for you and I'm cheering for you. And I just think there's actually so much more for you. Because, you know, physically, you know, in case you guys didn't know, men have wet dreams.
Yeah. We actually do have a built-in biological release system that I don't think is an accident. Yeah. You know, that was designed on purpose for so that you don't have to, you know, stimulate yourself to release yourself. So I haven't done enough research on, you know, biologically,
if men do need to release. But what I do know is men do have wet dreams when they abstain from sex or masturbation and releasing, which means, you know, for the women listening, you don't know, basically in their dreams, they we have sexual encounters of some sort and we orgasm in our sleep,
which is crazy. You know, it's not that's why that's why I was really wild. So, you know, I would just say, like, you know, one thing that I have not heard talked about, but I think what is kind of commonly acknowledged at this point with our words is that technically and deologically, and if you had to write a document, you know, in an essay masturbating without focusing on an object, an orgasming is technically according to the book and God's law, you know, it's okay.
Is what the kind of contestants. But what we've basically established at the point is it feels like 99.9% of the people listening and then an audience say, okay, that is not going to work for me. Right. But if you are listening and that's if you're not, you're not like, I just want to yeah, it's astronomically rare. Yeah. And for the men, I just I just hear like a little bit of like permission to like not, you know, establish self control and dominance
and victory in this area of their life. Right. Because of sexual release. Like, why? I've honestly had conversations with one about men about this before and that's why I'm asking you that because like, I don't feel that same. Like, I'm like, I don't need to release something. It's it's very different. I mean, I did it for 10 years. I didn't do anything. I didn't even know about this to like 25, you know? So I didn't need to biologically do that to like run.
So I guess the question would be this like, do I identify and sympathize with sympathize with that urge of needing release? I would say, yeah, I, you know, there's probably times, but like I also told you, it was also more related to my emotional and spiritual desire for intimacy than it was like, my body was going haywire without a release. Like your body, your physical need, I also think is directly intertwined with your emotional and spiritual need as one unit and entity.
So just say, just claiming biology, one on one, I need a release or else, you know, I'm going to be super upset and angry and not myself. I'm like, well, you just, that statement is saying, I will emotionally and spiritually be a different person and not okay if I don't have this physical, you know, effect. Yeah. And you just like prove the inner twineness of the physical and emotional.
But I just told I like if I had to be more blunt, I would just say it's bull crap. Like, I think it's just an excuse for a guy looking for an excuse to keep masturbation within his life. Right. Which and I've been there, you know, I played that game and, you know, if they want to keep playing that game, it's okay, I've been there and there is grace, but they're going to have to learn and grow out of that because ultimately what we haven't talked about yet is the whole idea
masturbation and every single time that I've committed it, it was always for me. And it was always for my escape, my, you know, satisfaction, my pleasure. It was, which is so funny because it is a sexual act and the whole core of a sexual act and what we've talked about as a sacrament is, is focus on the other person. So sex within a covenantal marriage and agreement is focus on the other person and acceptance of them, their flaws, their beauty, and you're saying I accept you naked.
And the orgasm, I think, is the exchange of, you know, becoming one. Last and the connection to masturbation ultimately is the complete opposite. The other person is an object for your expense and consumption and they are fulfilling a desire on your end and an urge within your end. Right. If it's like, and I always also had to ask myself,
is this a, is this, does this feel like an itch that needs to be scratched? Because if this feels like an itch that needs to be scratched, like, and I'm just going to fantasize about a guy that I'm dating or whatever, then like, I'm also dehumanizing that person because I'm like using them as an object of what I need to scratch this itch that I have. And that, once I sort of think about it like that, I just didn't feel right to me. I was like, we could go on and on. Okay,
Riley, what are you? We're just sitting there like, wow. And I guess, honey, we have to talk to the guy. No, I love this. We're like, oh, he's kind of, but okay, there's so much we could even go on. But is there anything to wrap this up, Riley, that you have on your heart that you really want to share about this subject? Yeah, I just want to like, end it on, on exactly what I said earlier, is that God has so much empathy on you. He does not leave you. He does not forsake you.
That no matter what you're doing, no matter what you're watching, he is with you. And it's him. That is the key to strength to have this out of your life. If that is what you want. And I just, I would just love to pray over the listeners. But something like, I have talked to hundreds of thousands of women about this subject because I spoke up about it like four years ago and then like, all of a sudden, I'm getting so many emails and DMs about it. I was like, okay, Lord, you're
calling. I love that this is my calling right now. And something that really helped is saying, like, God has never loved me more than this moment. God has never loved me more than this moment. Like God, God, like shame and love cannot coexist. And so when we bring God's love into it, shame must diminish or exit. And so I just want to encourage you, like, bring God's love into it. Like he loves you. Doesn't matter how many times you've done a domain, it doesn't matter what
you watch. He loves you. And he has a pathway for you, but first feel that love from him. And like, don't stop fighting to feel it and accept it and choose it because it is there. And he adores you. So can I care every people? Yes, please. Yeah. God, we just thank you that you are, are, are
strength. And so Jesus, I just pray over every single person that listened to this right now that your strength would flood them, Lord, that if they choose to remove masturbation out their life, God, may you put in a belief and a faith that this is possible, that they can do this, God, through your strength. And God, I pray that shame would leave their mind in the name of Jesus, that they are not defined by what they did, what they watch, who they were with, God, that you
love them. I pray shame leaves their mind right now, God. And Lord, I ask for your love to just, to just to be all around them, to wrap all around them right now, God. And I just pray that in those moments that they are struggling with your strength, come into them and flood them again and again and again. And Lord, it is possible. We as three people have seen that is possible to have a life without this. But more than this, God, we don't do this just because it is a behavior. We do this
out of love for you and we do this because we want to be holy people. We are your sons and daughters. And so God, we walk in the authority of belovedness that we are loved by you. Lord Jesus, amen. Amen. The Heart of Dating Podcast is created by Kate Warman. It is a part of the Converged Podcast Network. Our incredible editor is the one and only Scott Carro. Our theme music was developed by
the amazing Christian Lidoo. If this is your first time listening to the podcast or if you've never written us a review or ranked us on iTunes, we'd encourage you to do so because it helps us so much to get this podcast into more people's ears. We launch our podcast each and every week on Wednesday. So we'll see you next week. This show is part of the Converged Podcast Network.