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JOHN: Welcome to Greater Than Code Episode 205. I'm John Sawers, and I'm here with Astrid Countee.
ASTRID: Thanks, John. And I'm going to introduce our guest today, Amir Salihefendić. He's the CEO and founder of Doist, the software company responsible for Todoist, one of the world’s most popular productivity tools used by over eight million people. Originally from Bosnia, Amir grew up in Denmark and studied Computer Science. Prior to Doist, Amir was part of the founding team of Plurk, a Twitter precursor used by millions of people that continues to be one of the most popular social networking sites in Asia. While still a University student with two programming jobs on the side, he created Todoist in 2007– it was one of the first digital task managers available. Welcome, Amir.
AMIR: Well, thanks a lot. I'm really happy to be here.
ASTRID: Everybody gets asked this question. Our first question is, what is your superpower and how did you get it?
AMIR: My background is that of a refugee. So when we actually came to Denmark, there was a huge war in Bosnia in the '90s. We actually had to start from scratch. My parents had a grocery store while I was growing up. And one of the things was that I had to help them out in the grocery store. And I hated that. And also, I used all of my summers on this physical work of working in a grocery store. We also had, for instance, picking strawberries. I figured out quickly that the only way I could actually succeed is use my brain instead of the physical aspects because I found that work very hard. And also, my parents woke up at 5:00 a.m. and they came home at 8:00 p.m. And they could never actually have any vacations either. Having this kind of store job is a brutal job. And I would actually envy people that had parents working in factories because at least you had a much more sane --
ASTRID: Like a regular schedule.
AMIR: Yeah. And that's why I began to take school very seriously, learning very seriously. Before that, I was actually a really lousy student. And then I was like, okay, the only way I can actually succeed is by learning. And I've basically done that, and I still spend a lot of my time just learning and trying to grow and try to actually use my brain instead of the physical aspects that my parents used. So I think learning is my superpower. That's something I would say.
ASTRID: I feel like what you're saying a lot of people can relate to. I remember getting advice like that. One of our family friends said, "It's better to use your brain than have to use your body." What she was referencing was she had her own hair salon, but she was saying how it gets hard on you over the years when you're constantly moving and having to use your body to make your living and that if you can use your brain, then your brain will just get better over time and sharper. And it won't be something that kind of deteriorates in the way that your body can against your will. So I get what you're saying about learning, how important it is to learn.
AMIR: Yeah. And I guess that's something that we maybe only learn, at least for me, I think the only way -- My parents told me, "School is important." I didn't understand that or that learning was important. It's only when you're actually picking weeds at 5:00 a.m. or strawberries that you're kind of like, "My life is shit. I don't want to live like this."
[Laughter]
AMIR: And honestly, I think it's also something about leverage as well. In the physical world, it's very hard to get leverage. In the virtual world, it's much easier. And I think it's also, especially now, you can kind of be a kid in India and get an amazing job or in Africa or whatever else by just using your brain and using your knowledge. So I think also it opens up a lot of doors for people as well. And I hope we will see more of this in the future.
JOHN: You talked about being a refugee and moving to Denmark. How old were you at that time? And I'd love to understand more about what that experience was like.
AMIR: I was probably five. Honestly, I don't remember much about it. It was very traumatic, but I don't think for me it was that traumatic. I was very young, so I didn't really connect the dots. But I have older siblings and for them, I think it was devastating, much more devastating than for me. I don't think normal people can actually relate how it is to lose everything and you basically need to flee. And the whole process of fleeing isn't planned. For instance, my family didn't have all the passports in check because you don't plan like, "Oh, I'm going to flee. I need to have passports so I can flee." So we had to actually...There's crazy stories. But we had to cross the whole Europe in a train to get to Denmark. And Denmark is kind of a random location. We had no plans to go to Denmark. It was the country that was open for refugees. Our plan was actually Sweden, but Sweden had closed borders. So the only location was Denmark. And then you don't really have passports. So the police will make many problems. Actually, my sister entered Denmark with a different parent. So basically, we had to subscribe her to another family with a different name and different birth of date and fixing that was a huge problem because basically, you're another kid with another name, with another family. And then the real family says, "Oh, yeah. That's our daughter. We had to falsify the passport to get her." And there's a lot of stories like that. But honestly, as a kid, I don't recall much. I think it's a very traumatic experience that you just want to forget.
JOHN: Yeah. I can imagine. Well, actually I can't really. I can pretend that I can imagine, but I don't think it would have anything close to the sense of what that would actually be like.
ASTRID: Yeah. It sounds really chaotic. I know that here, because I live in Houston, I have been lucky to not have to personally experience, but I do know people who lost everything because of natural disasters. But that is not the same as not being able to rebuild where you are because you have to leave. And you have to kind of go through all these other countries that have their own rules and not have any security that wherever you land you'll even be together.
AMIR: I think probably both are very difficult.
ASTRID: You started out talking about how you kind of figured out that you wanted to just use your brain and learn, but how did you focus? And I know that you said that you didn't always remember everything. But since you have older siblings that did and obviously parents that were going through things, how did you find it possible to focus when so much had changed?
AMIR: The issue is also when we actually entered Denmark, we were in these refugee camps for some years, so that's very blurry as well. I started real school in fourth grade. And before that, it was a refugee camp improvised learning. My brother, who's 15 years older than me, taught math. And he has never had any teaching background, but it's because he was good at math. So he taught math at this improvised school. So I'm not sure if I answered the question. But there's a lot blurriness in the whole process. Before we actually settled down, it took us many, many years, I would guess maybe 5 to 10. [Laughs]
JOHN: So it sounds like part of your interest in developing your learning skills was around also having a very unstructured learning environment for sort of a big part of your growing up. And so, did you find that you had to sort of find your own ways to knowledge because there wasn't such a structured educational system there?
AMIR: Yeah. It was very brutal. If you miss kindergarten and the first few years of school, you have a huge disadvantage. I figured I was actually smart maybe second year of high school. Before that, I struggled a lot. I actually thought I was dumb and the teachers also thought I was dumb. [Laughs] So they would not even -- In Denmark, there is a system where they need to recommend you for higher education to actually go to the high school. They didn't want to recommend me. They wanted me to go and -- There is physical work and school work; those are two paths that you can follow. That was a hard environment. I think it was also that's how you struggle and then at some point, you win over the struggle and then you're in a really good position because nothing came easy.
JOHN: And do you feel like that experience has sort of influenced either your motivation to -- It sounds like you were very busy during college, having multiple jobs and starting the startup as well as doing your studies. Do you think that was partly motivated coming out of that and realizing the power that you had with your mind that you could apply there? What was that like?
AMIR: It's a good question, and I think it's probably related. I think a lot of founders -- I think what most people don't really know is in order to be a founder, and that's not a generalization, but the founders I know have something that's broken with them. And you're never going to fix that. It's usually some trauma that you had in your past. So for me, that's probably related to the personality I have like to the experience that I had in life. And I know a lot of other founders that have much similar stories as well. So maybe that trauma could either make you stronger or make you weaker. It's really the framing, how you use it. So I think I used it positively, and I still do. It's kind of a job that you can't really switch off. [Chuckles] It's always there.
JOHN: And so what is that drive for? Is that drive for being in control of your work environment or is it about physical security or some other aspect?
AMIR: I can't really fully answer that. I don't really actually know fully. I need to dig deeper, more deeper into this. Something that I found out is in the past, I was not really reflective of my psyche or especially the shadow side. I'm not sure if you know the Jung theory of the south. So I was not really aware of that at all. I was living in the -- and the shadow side was blocked. So even for people, I would definitely recommend going into that deep dive, but it can also be very traumatic to do that.
JOHN: It's not something to undertake lightly for sure.
ASTRID: And not alone.
AMIR: Probably with a psychologist, it's a very good idea to kind of try to go deeper into this. I think that kind of gave me another understanding of myself and stuff. And I'm actually still trying to learn. But yeah, it's a challenge.
JOHN: It's a lifelong process. I think we're all involved in that in some way or another.
AMIR: Yeah, I think so too. And maybe the people that aren't like -- I think it makes you a better person to actually dig into yourself.
ASTRID: I'm actually really interested in where you kind of came up with this idea that founders tend to have something that's broken that they're trying to fix inside them.
AMIR: I was actually not really aware of this until at some point I signed up for Reboot CEO BootCamp. I'm not sure if you know of Reboot with Jerry. And I actually thought we will go there and I will learn some leadership skills, it will be great. [Laughs] And then it was very very different from what I would expect. And there we did a lot of exercises to dig deep into ourselves. And we shared a lot of stuff. So I was there with 15 other founder types. And what I count as maybe a bigger drive than -- Yeah, that's at least what I found out. And you would actually never really know that until you hear their stories. On the outside, you can't really see that. So that's where I drew my theory. You have to have a drive. Starting something is really, really hard. There's a lot of trauma, and stress, and fight that you basically need to survive. And you get a lot of rejections. And you sign up for that while you could maybe have a nice job at Facebook or whatever. Not everybody wants to sign up for that. So that's kind of -- I'm not sure; It's not really studied. It's just my impression is there's something wrong and they try to fix it and then it's not really fixed at all. And then it's just a continuous battle.
ASTRID: What I got out of what you're saying is that it's like something inside of you is relentless, maybe more relentless because you went through something or still might be going through something that allows you to take that energy and apply it to your business. You're more willing to fight to keep going than maybe the average person who it sounds great in the beginning but then once you start getting to the really hard, messy stuff, they kind of start to say, "Why am I even doing this? I could be enjoying my life." And there's a smaller subset of people who, because they're kind of more used to the fight or there's something about that fight that is a thing that they want to engage with, that they're willing to get through those harder times. Does that sound right?
AMIR: Yeah. That's at least my impression. And I think non-founders have this as well. Everybody's struggling with something. It's just at least from the founders I know, that is much more dominant inside their personality.
JOHN: Jerry Colonna is the guy who runs reboot.io and his podcast is amongst my favorites. And he's such an amazing coach, and he's so good at diving into the real issues that are driving someone in their work. And I had thought of him when you first started talking because you were talking about coming out of a traumatic environment and how that might be shaping what your drive is. And I was thinking he talks about that a lot.
AMIR: And honestly, before that Bootcamp, I never reflected all of that. I never was aware of that, and they are really good at digging that up. I was like, "Wow. What is going on here?" It sounds like a very scary feeling as well. So yeah, Jerry and the folks there are doing a pretty good job. It's a pretty brutal one though.
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JOHN: So I know you've talked about remote work in the past, and I assume that when you started Doist it was a side-project in college. It was probably just out of your dorm room. And if you were working with others, they were working in their own spaces. So I'm guessing it was born out of a fairly distributed team. I understand that you kept going with that as the company expanded. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
AMIR: The first social network I founded was with l a Canadian, Indian, Malaysian, Chinese, and I'm Bosnian-Danish. We basically worked on the internet and also a lot of the people that we had were very weird. And I didn't actually meet them until maybe two or three years into this. So that's the first remote experience I had, and I had a blast. We were just creating stuff. And when I started Doist, I actually never really set up to do a remote company. But I was living in Chile, and I needed to hire people. And I couldn't really find any local people I could hire that matched the skills that I needed. So I just started to hire from outside of Chile. And that's how it grew. There was no master plan. It was like, okay, this makes sense, and we can work together online.
JOHN: So obviously, that's how you got started. And it certainly made it more convenient being able to look at a worldwide talent pool. But you've kept doing it since then even to the point where you probably could buy a building and set up a headquarters or something like that. But you're I think very much into the remote work, the distributed team environment. Is that correct?
AMIR: Honestly, I think most people don't really understand the implications of this. It's the first time in human history where you can actually have an amazing job regardless of where you live. Nowhere in history could you actually do that. And this has all kinds of implications. And then we're mixing also that you can actually learn from anywhere. You could be a kid in Africa and learn code and then suddenly get a good job and that basically changes everything. And maybe it also changes everything for your local community. For us, it's kind of like the future of work but maybe also the future of the world because we kind of need to break these silos that we're creating like these huge cities where the only way you can actually get a great job is living in these huge areas.
We need to create a system where you can live anywhere and also have a local community that you support and just work in this space. I think the technology is there. We have kind of proved, and there's many other companies much larger than us, that is possible. It can build amazing companies, amazing cultures. And then I think it's also something that ties into the diversity aspect. In this kind of environment, you don't actually care who people are. And one of the stories I always like to point to is one of our early team members, David, nobody has ever seen him or talked to him, and he has been in the company for 10 years. There's no way in other contexts that this could actually happen. He does a great job. He actually has a great sense of humor. It's just through text. But that's how we roll. That's kind of an environment that you can create, and this would be a huge advantage for a lot of people.
ASTRID: I think right now is a really interesting time to talk about remote work because there's a lot of people who maybe for their first time ever are working remotely because of the pandemic. And so there's a lot of information out there about how to work remotely and what ways that you can try to balance everything. But one of the things that I find kind of interesting are some of the people who are still skeptical. So I have people who I know who they constantly are being told, "Okay, we're all going to come back to the office on this date." and then that might change. Or "We're all going to come the next month." and then that doesn't change because they're trying to figure out how to bring people back into the office. They still see remote work as a temporary fix and not a natural way to work. So, what do you say to people who kind of question this entire way of working and say, "How can you do this long-term? It can't possibly be good for your company. How do people get to know each other? What about the things that you have to be face-to-face for?"
AMIR: There's multiple angles here. One of the angles is that people think remote culture is weak. And if you look at remote companies such as ours or Basecamp, Buffer, the retention rate over many years is over 90% for a lot of these companies. So basically, nobody leaves, and this is not common. Like for us, over the last 10 years, it's 97%. And usually, even the best tech companies like Google I think it's something like 30%. So you can build very strong cultures. They need to be different cultures. You kind of really have the same connection to other people. And you maybe also need to have social connections outside of work because you will not be fulfilled socially in a remote-first environment.
And the current crisis we have -- Honestly, I have been in lockdown in Chile for five months with two kids, and it was horrible. I would never do that. And that's the experience that people have of remote work. It's being on lockdown without having freedom and maybe with kids or just alone or even with a partner. It's all really, really bad scenarios. So real remote work is actually much more freedom to structure a day and especially if you mix remote-first with asynchronous tasks that we do where you actually don't have synchronized hours that you work. So that means you can actually have full flexibility of how you actually work, when you work, where you work from. So that's kind of the premise. But right now, what people are doing is Zoom calls and Slack all day long or Microsoft Teams all day long. And that isn't really the real remote work. I think this acceleration won't be super positive for the remote movement because a lot of people have traumas, and they will blame remote work for this. But it's a pandemic, and you're on lockdown. You don't have a lot of freedom. Maybe your kids aren't in school or you can't go out to a coffee shop or do your vacationing or whatever else you used to do. So it's kind of a very extreme environment.
JOHN: That's a pretty good point about how this context for remote work is very much atypical for normal times remote work. And also, a lot of these remote situations happened on basically pretty short notice. So the culture hadn't been set up around remote work and everyone was still learning how to do it. And they were still getting their technology sorted out. So for a team that had to suddenly become remote in two weeks in March, it's going to be a very different process than one who much like my team, has been remote for the last eight years.
AMIR: Exactly, John. It's a huge cultural shift, huge shift. You need to invent another way to work together to communicate and maybe also live. So it's not only about working; it's also how you live. How do you get social connections with other people? That's something that's a big struggle. And we also try to educate. We have had a blog over 10 years where we just shared everything that we know. But I think it's a huge jump for people. And I still hope after this, people will still give it a chance because honestly, I think it's the best way to work and live.
ASTRID: I also think that the point that you're making, Amir, about silos is something that is starting to slowly get more attention. So I have been seeing some articles, especially in the U.S. about how a lot of people are leaving bigger cities because they want the opportunity to live closer to friends and family or to just live a different kind of life. And they can do that right now because there's no reason for them to be there except for their job. And they can do their job remotely and having that opportunity to decide where you live and it doesn't have to be tied to what you're doing for a living, is giving people a chance to build a life that they didn't think they could build. And so sometimes this is replacing the drive for more money.
So a lot of people assume in order for me to have the freedom to see my friends and family the way I want or to go live off of a beach or something like that, I need to be able to make this much money. And I need to work however hard or however long in order to make that money so I could have this option. Now, if you can work remotely, you could just live there and not have to worry so much about trying to attain a certain type of financial status so that you can have that luxury sort of lifestyle. So some of those things are changing the way that people are approaching work, which I think is good because that means that you may have people who are actually trying to pursue things that they want to do rather than things that they think will make them lots of money.
And maybe that will change satisfaction because job satisfaction tends to be pretty unsatisfactory. I think it's something like 85% of people say they don't like their jobs. Most heart attacks are on Monday mornings because people don't want to go to their jobs. And I'm wondering what you think about this as somebody who's been running a company who has worked this way for quite some time. What do you think about some of these other parts of it? Like you mentioned before, it's not just your work. It's also changing how you live and changing maybe how you approach getting things done.
AMIR: I think that's kind of what is happening. It's like a revolution maybe or that's what I hope it is where you actually don't only optimize your life for your work but also to live a great life that's kind of compatible with your values or like -- for instance, people who like nature. But a lot of times, you can't really -- in a bigger city have nature and also have a good commute time and stuff like that. So I think a lot of people have kind of sacrificed their happiness for getting a job that they wanted. And right now they can [Inaudible]
And something I've heard is especially in the U.S. smaller cities or towns are getting attention and people moving to them. And it's not only tech workers. It's normal people as well because imagine you're a teacher and you need to live in San Francisco. It's very hard to actually find a place to live that you can afford. It's very hard to get your kids to school. So there's all kinds of side effects of these silos we have built where for normal people, for instance, a school teacher or a waiter, it's really, really bad quality of life and maybe for everybody as well. And if you go to a community and live outside maybe in some nature in a smaller town, you will have a much better life quality. And I think the silo situation is also politically bad as well because I think the U.S. is a good example of this happening even in Denmark it's happening where basically all the economic activity and the great jobs are located in a few cities. And then everywhere else people are barely surviving or there's no jobs, there's no opportunity. And this creates rich and poor and then you have all kinds of issues of that. So maybe this is a way to combat this especially as more and more people move into knowledge work. And even if you're not a knowledge worker, maybe it will actually be better to live in a small community and get a decent job have a decent house than live -- There's some horror stories of people that live in these huge cities that live a miserable life. They spend hours commuting and low pay. There's a lot of issues not only work-related but also socially that I think could actually help out here.
JOHN: You mentioned the impact on the local community when someone is able to get either a job and a knowledge job that pays far above the average for whatever area they're actually living in. And that's an interesting angle that I haven't seen addressed in a lot of the writing about remote work. But it's a powerful one because if you could think someone starts making Facebook-level salary, that's an amazingly larger amount of money coming into a community whether it's in the rural U.S. or Africa, Asia, wherever there's a lot of American dollars flowing in, that could have quite an impact because they're going to be spent probably more locally and help lift the whole community up as you were saying.
AMIR: That's so spot-on, John. And I think that this is a really beautiful thing. And also for us and for all other remote-first companies, we actually try to pay global salaries or close to global. Of course, cost of living is a thing, a real thing, and you kind of need to adjust a bit to that but still pay people really great salaries wherever they live. I think this definitely changes local communities. I mean, we have people where we pay a lot more than they would get in that local place. And for me, I'm super happy because they will help their friends, their family, and they will make the whole community better. And I hope we can see more of this.
ASTRID: So, Amir, I have a question which is something else that I've seen floating around some of these different remote work discussions, which is some people view this as it sounds, all nice and lovely, but then what you're really going to do is make it so that now I no longer just compete with people in my own town. I'm competing with everyone around the world for this job opening. And that'll be another way to kind of take some of the things that companies use outsourcing for and use that to help put workers against each other. So what kind of thing would you say to people who have that take on it?
AMIR: That is definitely I think an issue. For us, for instance, when we do a job posting, we get sometimes thousands of applicants. The competition is really, really fierce for some of these positions, and there's much more demand than supply. But I hope eventually, this can kind of even out as more companies move into these remote-first aspects. You can see some huge companies doing this right now. We need to have more remote-first jobs for this to not really happen. And then the competition will maybe be more even.
I think something that's kind of critical about remote-first companies is I think you can hire much more mission compatibility. For instance, when we look for somebody, we don't actually care how much we will pay. We care more about are we compatible? Are they really caring about building the products that we want to deliver? So I think there's maybe also some things some people will be super passionate about a specific thing. They would be world-class at that. And they will maybe be able to find a company that does that somewhere, and they will be able to contribute. That said, we will see how this plays out. I think it can definitely play out in the wrong way where basically it's outsourcing 2.0. But that said, from the current batch of remote-first companies, the focus is basically treating people really well, paying them really well. It's not treating people like outsourcing 2.0.
JOHN: Actually, you touched on the idea of salaries before and sort of adjusting for cost of living and how a regular tech salary is worth so much more outside of San Francisco. Tell me a little bit more about how you figure out what the salaries are going to look like because I know a lot of companies have different approaches to how they figure that out.
AMIR: I think this is still an ongoing discussion. I don't think we have figured this out yet. And there is a market being created and maybe the market will regulate this. Every company has their approach. Our approach is based on we have a formula that spits out a number and then it's got different components that are based on, for instance, cost of living, 30% of the salary. Then there's a base salary that's based on the U.S. market that we try to...It's more like an art than actual science right now. And I think a lot of companies are figuring out how they should actually do this. But something we do is there is no negotiation. And this also means that for instance, just because you have a specific gender or race you don't get paid more or if you're better at negotiating and somebody isn't. It's just I think a fair way to compensate people. I would actually love at some point -- and I think this is also something that we're seeing with Buffer, for instance, full transparency on compensation. Another company is like -- [Inaudible] that also does this. So it's kind of starting. And I think this ultimate goal is based on full transparency. There's no hidden streaks and this asymmetry of information that you usually see.
We will love to move to this at some point. And we're actually trying to get the company ready for this move. But yeah, it will be like dropping a nuclear bomb on an organization because there's issues with that as well. So yeah, it's kind of like treading the waters and maybe if you want to start something then maybe starting a full transparent conversation is the way to go. It's something that I would at least recommend. I think it's much harder to change it later on.
JOHN: Yeah, definitely. It's easier to start from the beginning. So one thing I did notice is that you have a variation based on cost of living. Does that mean that you would actually change someone's salary if they move to a different country?
AMIR: Exactly. So whenever you change the tech space, we need to optimize or change your salary. So sometimes it can go up and sometimes it can go down. So that's basically a rule we have.
ASTRID: What if you're moving say from San Francisco to Fresno? Your cost of living drops significantly, but there are no tax changes that go on there. Would you still be adjusting the salary in that case or?
AMIR: Yeah, we would. Given that the variable cost of living isn't that -- 30% is a lot. But it can be much worse. If you go from San Francisco to the Philippines, it will be another magnitude of different salaries that we will pay there. And we don't really do that. The trend that I've seen on the salaries is it's moving more towards global salaries where you pay people the same and then companies kind of optimizing towards that. But there's a lot of opinions here and there's a lot of different systems and depending on -- and a lot of different arguments for doing it that way or the other way.
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ASTRID: So, Amir, you had mentioned around hiring that one of the advantages of having a remote company is that you can hire based on mission. And I also remember seeing probably a blog post about how your company doesn't have an exit strategy because you're focused on building towards that long goal of mission. Can you talk a little more about that? How that changes how you make decisions when you're focused on your mission versus focused on [Inaudible]?
AMIR: This was something I did very early on. I viewed this as my life project. So what I like to say is death is kind of my exit strategy. So this is very different from the regular approach where you're just looking at selling it. It's 10 years and the decisions don't really matter because it will be all over soon regardless of the decision that you make. And that means you cannot really care that much about culture or the people that you hire or what kind of things you're building because it's all over soon. So this short-term thinking is really something that I don't really think is the optimal way of doing things. So that's why we are long-term. I have been at this for 13 or 14 years now. And there's no end in sight, and that feels great. And it also means that I can't slack or compromise on the mission or the stuff that we're building, the people that we hire, the culture that we have because I know I will pay this and there will be no end. I will need to live with these things for a long time. So that's the line of thinking, having no exit strategy.
ASTRID: Do you think that something in there is that thing that John was asking you like, what is the thing that drives you? There's something in this sticking in it for the long haul and not really wanting to have short-term decision making. Is that a part of your drive?
AMIR: Yeah. That's a great question, and I have not really reflected all of that that much. But something to know I don't really give up very easily. And that's probably part of the personality and the background that I have and sticking it out and continuing day in day out and not really being tired. That's definitely related, but I have not really reflected much about this.
JOHN: So we've come to the part of our show where we call reflections, which is where each of us can talk about the things that have struck us about the conversation and things that might be sticking with us afterward that we're going to be thinking about. And so for me, I think as I mentioned earlier, the thought about the impact of having a globally very high salary that can be given to every person regardless of where they're living and then that would enable them to be a part of their local communities in a really positive way simply because that money is coming in from the outside is a really interesting one. And one that I'm going to sort of build into my concept of the possibilities of remote work because I think it's a really positive benefit that isn't really talked about very often.
ASTRID: I like that one. I want to steal it. I would say one of the things that will probably stick with me is what you were talking about in the beginning, Amir, about what it was like for your family and for you being a refugee and how it gave you this sense that learning was something that could really allow you to get where you wanted to go because of what you saw when you were growing up with your parents at the grocery store and then the way things changed so quickly, but things were so unstable. I think that there's something in there that feels a lot like other stories I've heard from other people. They're not always about the same topic, but there is something about when you go through something different from those around you how it shapes you differently and how these things that oftentimes are negative can actually be something that makes you into the person that you want to be, which seems like a little bit of what you've been able to do with some of those experiences is to let those things help you become the founder that you are now. So there's some little nugget of wisdom in there, which I can't quite put my finger on, but I will be thinking about it afterward.
AMIR: Those are some really, really good reflections. My reflection would be I think that lot of people, especially...I know your podcast it's a lot about diversity. A lot of diverse people struggle a lot because they don't look or act like others around them. If you can use this energy, negative energy, into something positive, then I think you can actually change your life in a meaningful way. And that's at least what has been a power for me. It's kind of using this traumatic and negative energy into something that drives me in a positive way forward. I think it's also possible to kind of go in the other direction and use this destructive behavior. If you have struggled, then maybe you can actually use this as your superpower and the drive that can make huge changes. And normal people who've had normal lives don't have the source of power that keeps on giving and never really stops. So yeah.
ASTRID: That was a great way to wrap up the show. We won't even have to do it. He even went all the way back to the superpower.
JOHN: Yeah, that's perfect.
[Laughter]
JOHN: Well, thank you so much, Amir. This has been a fantastic conversation.
AMIR: I've really enjoyed as well. Yeah, thanks a lot, folks.
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