Whisper Your Abortion Feat. Zoila Darton

talented mom, mama, entrepreneur, overall boss woman, Soila Darden. Hey, ladies, I'm so happy to be here today with you boss as mama. We're excited to have you. I'm excited that you're here. I'm so happy that I know you and I know exactly and we like I feel like we have so many other connections in our life, but we somehow I reached out to you for that panel, but we know each other through Nicole Russell, who was also on our show. Did we know each other before? Though?

You no? I think actually you knew Nicole. I saw that you knew Nicole, and I was like, wait, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Did she connect us? She didn't. I followed you guys. I don't remember why I followed the podcast, but I started following you guys, and then I followed. Then I reached out to you, and then that was it. But then we realized Nicole and like it was.

I was born in Spain, but I've been living I grew up in New York for my whole life, and I moved out here to Los Angeles a little over three years ago to continue my career in the music business as an artist manager and through a series of crazy, but I now say fortunate events, because the old Nie would have probably said unfortunate but fortunate events. I no longer work in the music business. I am the founder

of a creative agency called word. It stands for we Open Real Doors, and we do just that for women owned businesses brands that are interested in supporting women. And we also, you know, work to create experiences and products and content to support women and their business and personal journey. So it's like a lot of stuff. I've been recently saying that it's kind of like my brain out into the world. I think it has a lot to do

with the way that I was raised. I was raised really freely, and that was a positive and a negative because like it took me a long time to discover how to create routine and like be dedicated to one thing, which I still can't do. I think it's a lot of us. I think it's most people, but you know, typically, especially in America, parents kind of drive their children to be to like be good at this one thing and like stick to that. And my mom was such a bohemian.

She's a musician and a very prolific music publisher. Marty kuebas Hi, Mom, love you. She had a really intense upbringing and like not so great relationship with her mom. So when the way that she mothered my brother and me was like, here, do your thing and like I'm gonna just support whatever you want to do, which is great,

but it didn't really teach me how to commit. And I have a wild imagination, always been a really big dreamer, and so when I would find something that I was interested in, I would like go full force into it. And I just did that over and over and over and over and over again. And so now it's really cool to have a brand and you know, a business where I can really express my creativity in whatever way and like kind of be my own master of my universe.

That's amazing. I had no idea sharing. I didn't know you were in Yeah. So my both of my parents are musicians. They met actually living in Spain. My mom is from San Francisco, and she fell in love with Spain, with Spain and Spanish, and so she's she's white, and she moved out there and met both my father and my father's father and my brother was raised there until he was seven, and he's seven years older than me. So by the time I was like nine months, we

had moved back to the US New York. We moved first to San Francisco until I was about two, and then we moved to New York. Both of my parents were jazz musicians, so that was like, you know, where you wanted to be, It's mecca. But they got there and there was no money to be had, so my mom threw herself into finding work, being you know, the mom and the level headed person. My father continued to be a jazz musician and h know, had his own

thing going on. But my mom ended up working in music, which was really fortunate for her as a musician, and she, through a series of events, ended up owning her own music publishing company in the in the Latin world, you know, working with groups like Aventura, Romeo Santos, a really prolific but chata singers, like just doing really dope things. And I started working with her when I was around twenty six,

I would say, or twenty five. I was interning at Refinery twenty nine, and like realized that financially that was not gonna work, Like even if I got a full time job there, they wanted to pay me like nothing, and my mom really needed support on the marketing and creative side, and like bringing in talent and also just like being kind of like a face of the company. So I went in and worked with her for seven

and a half years and my music. And actually the way that I met Nicole Russell, who is one of our mutual friends we were talking about, is because of a Women's History Month campaign that I created for my Yimba music. We featured thirty three women just like paving their own ways in twenty fourteen, and that's how I met Nicole. She she was one of the women and we've become, you know, sisters since then. So working with your mom, what's that like? Because I work with my mom.

I always love to ask people that work with their parents because it's always I get that face a lot. Well, how much time do we? Okay, I don't want to do experience? I mean, did you know? It was a wonderful experience. And I still, you know, do some things for her here and there, like in my realm. She lives in New York. So my brother also works at

the company Mayimba. It's a family company, and working with my family was an experience and I used to compared to being in the mob because I felt like even if I wanted to go. There was no way because it's like you want to build capital for your family, right and it's an obligation. Yeah, And you know, it was a great experience. And my mom is incredible, and

I just I'm so in awe of her. And really she's taught me everything that I know about business and how to be honest, and I'm so grateful for that. But working with my mom was tough because she was a single mother. We had already had a very complicated relationships in terms of like mom daughter, Like sometimes I

felt like we were more friends. She was just working so hard to make ends meet, you know, motherhood sometimes I think was a struggle for her, not in just like the emotional, but you know in the logistic day to day like finding babysitters and all those things that we all understand. And so when you add in working together, you know, sometimes I we'd have to have conversations and I'd be like, Mom, I'm your daughter, Like I just

want to be your daughter right now, like plea. It's like I you know, I don't want it to be a bit. I don't want to be your coworker, you know, your your employee, Like I don't want that right now, Like I just need mom and daughter talk, and so that was really difficult, you know. And then there's obviously family dynamics, and you know, I'm kind of like the wild child of the family for sure. My brother was basically the man of the house, so he's very regimented.

He's a musician as well, very talented guitar player, and so he is regimented. And I never really was. I was just like fly And I've just now as I've become a mother, realized that I like kind of raised myself. And that's not to say that my mom didn't raise me at all, but when I came pair or look at you know, the relationships and like the things that some of my friends had in comparison to me when they were growing up, like I I was, I was on my own a lot, but I'm grateful for all

of it. It's made me who I am. Working with my mom was awesome. It was just it was a lot. I got it. I totally get it. What's your son? I'm an Aquarius. February twelfth, Abraham Lincoln's birthday. Nice. So we ran into each other last week at this case with event and our foot locker case with event. Yeah, we were watching Clueless and I saw zoil and I

was like, oh my god. And then towards the end of the event, Jamila was with me and we started talking and we were talking about, you know, what's going on in the world with you know, politics and all this abortion talk. And I was telling Jamila after we were talking, because it was like towards the end of the event, there weren't a lot of people around, but

we were all discussed. We were discussed abortion, and we were talking about our abortions, and I told you Meal, I was like, it's so weird, Like I felt really uncomfortable hearing you guys discuss it openly in public. I was like, I felt and I had to ask myself why. And I think because as a society we've been so shamed by abortion and talking about that, and now that I'm a mother, it feels like shameful, even more shameful

to talk about. But then I was like, we're but then now with everything that's happening, like these new Instagram accounts opening up and really like like shout your abortion, yeah, coming into place and talking about and really just normalizing it, something has like switched in my head in just like two weeks. But I was talking to me, I was like, I feel like it's so weird that I felt not weird,

but I know that most people would feel uncomfortable. And I was almost like looking around, like it can bring us. We're talking about our abortions right now, should we like go in a corner and talk about it? And I'm like about it, and I thought like, Okay, this needs to be a topic because why do I feel this way? Why do I feel this way? Why do most women feel this way?

to get pregnant. And so I think when it comes to normalizing it, we just have to continue to talk about it. And I think one of the one of the really interesting things that are coming out of this whole talking about abortion is how we're talking about men in relation to abortion, because when a woman has an abortion, it's not just the woman that has it. The man is always not He's never been closing, he's never part of the c and sometimes men aren't aware right that

that is a circumstance. But for me, for instance, I've had to have two and it's with with my husband,

who is my husband now. He was my boyfriend at the time, and like it was difficult for both of us, you know, I think a different kind of difficulty, but he was there too, And I think that one of the ways that we will destigmatize it is to have men support us in that conversation and not just say, you know, pro choice women can do whatever they want with their bodies, because yeah, that's a fucking given and

we're gonna that's what we want. But we need to hear the stories from the men who have suffered from abortion as well.

that stuff. Because this is not just a conversation about you know, because the way that like the right or the pro life people phrase it is that they essentially they say that it's about religion, but what they really what they really want to say, is that it's about irresponsibility, right, and that like the woman is so irresponsible for like getting pregnant when she didn't want to get pregnant, Like you shouldn't kill a baby because of it. It shouldn't

be a form of birth control. Just fucking ridiculous, because no woman.

get into conversations about it because it's very upsetting. It's so strange to me that this is a conversation happening in twenty nineteen when we still have, you know, a really high percentage of poverty, our education system is broken, we have psychotic people in the White House, we're bombing on trees, you know, we're killing the planet. Yet for some reason, we're regulating what a woman does and the privacy of her own time with her own body. So

it's oppression. It's another form of oppression, and it really gets me upset when I think about it. So the best thing I do is donate money. I'm donating a proceeds of my shirts that I sell on my website to you know, Neural pro Choice and the Yellow Yellow I mean the Yellow Hammer Fund. And that's like what I can do because I have a lot of shit going on in my life that I need to take control of. So, like the deeper I get into a topic like this, it just breaks my heart, you know,

So I do what I can. And I just like I pray for humanity, honestly, I pray for us all. Like I don't know what I would have like when I had my abortion, Like if I couldn't have gotten it, where would you be? Who knows? I don't know what to what end I would have gone went to make it not happen, right, make this pregnancy not happen. Babies end up in the garbage too. Yeah, no, I know because the person I was pregnant by didn't even live in this country. It was fun time. We were definitely

not trying to get pregnant at all. Obviously, I thought I was being safe pull out method, you know, and I was young. I was broke, like, like what was I going to be doing with a baby with a guy who doesn't even live here, like who like didn't want the baby either, Like what am I supposed to do? Like that was planned? Parenthood wasn't an option for me, Like I don't know what I was going to what I would have done. And it was the worst experience

I've ever gone through. It was lonely, it was, I mean, thank god I had I have amazing friends that like came over. I took the pill, and they like came out twenty four came over. I took the pill, and you know the women that came from my friends that came over, they had all had abortions too, so like you know, they were telling me, like this is what it's going to feel, like, don't worry, We're here for you.

I just remember taking the pill and just waiting, you know, waiting for like something something to happen, and then when it did, it was the most painful thing I've ever experienced willingly, and besides childbirths. I was gonna say, but even that, I mean I had an epidural, Like there was numbing when that I've seen you got a baby right right, Like this was just like totally heartbreaking and and I just can't imagine like what I would have done. First of all, if I would have had a baby,

like what, wow, what would I have been doing? And secondly, if I didn't, if I didn't have access to you know, this healthcare, because abortion is healthcare. Let's be real, it is that's like, I don't know what I would have done. And I think about all the girls even but before abortion was you know, even possible, like what they were doing and how they were doing it, and all the people that died, you know, having abortions, having back alley abortions.

It's just like I can't and yeah, it's like feels a candmaids still. Well, it's a form of oppression because, like you said, what would you have done with your life had you not been able to have the abortion? So that's what we're seeing a lot of right now, is a lot of stories of women. Actually Quinn I forgot her last name, but she's one of the co founders of Looms. She just came out with her story

of you know, what would have happened to her? What happened to her because she was able to have an abortion. And so I think that there's a bunch of there's a few different parts to why they want to ban abortion. But I do think that the root of it is oppression because when you give, when you take away a

woman's choice, you take away her freedom. And so you have sixteen year old girls or eighteen year old girls, or a thirty year old woman who isn't ready to get pregnant, isn't ready to have a baby because they're not where they need to be, you know. Like and both of my abortions, I got pregnant twice on contraceptives.

very young. She did not want to have the baby, but there was something inside of her that told her that she had to. And when we look at her life, her life would not be what it is today if it weren't for that, and that was her choice to do that. She also had the choice to not do it if she didn't want to. And like I just in honest, is so mind boggling to me why we would do this to women. This is a direct war on us. Like they they want to they just want to keep a I mean, we're rising up right now,

I know, So that's a really hard That's why. That's why I know. I did like a little research about this because I was just like, I need to know more facts about even before, like what was happening before, And it was shocking, like the statistics but before Row versus Way, it was coming out versus now, like one in six women result they resulted in death when they had one and six abortions led to death. Prior to Roe versus Way, that is so many women.

Then it was even to the extent women were like because it was back alley asking, like cab drivers, door people getting blindfolded to hotel rooms so you could not see the person giving you the administering this fake ass abortion. Kairo practors were giving abortions people like could have no prostitutes basically no literally anybody, anybody, and like literally women are dying, bleeding out to death because they're humiliate like even after things have gone wrong, not going to the droptor.

happened to you? And the fact that most of these politicians, guaranteed have God, had their mistresses getting abortions, had their kids scant abortions that maybe had fun one weekend, like they've they've used abortion, but when it was when it was when it was personal to them and they needed it first of all, Like the statistics of like one in four women have had an abortion. First of all, there's three of us sitting here right now.

or whatever. But in college I remember like having to get a credit card, borrowing some money from some friends, putting up to six hundred dollars on this probably the limit of the credit card was six hundred dollars, and like going through Great Lens because this guy was just like what click, you know, And I'm like, imagine if I would have two kids prior to Luna, you know that's crazy. And the and again that guy also the Muslim is in jail and I have a friend he is and I'm a.

afraid as I was. And it's like, these are the we need to hear these stories from men because these motherfuckers that are making these laws, you know, they need some other kind of pushback because they're not gonna listen to us. They're not gonna listen to us. Like women, we are such a threat to these people right now, to these men right now, and unfortunately, we have a lot of white ladies who are siding with them. And I'm like, y'all need to stop choosing your fucking race

over your gender. Like even statistically like the abortion rates more, it's actually more white women than any other any other demographic.

And I read that, and they would, you know, the media and the way that the stories are being told, and you know this narrative that we've created about you know, Latinas have too many babies and black women and their unfathered children and all this bullshit would have us think about ourselves, about our own people, that we're the ones out here causing all of this ruckus, when actually it's not even about us, right, Like the numbers are not

about us, and it's like, I don't know what's gonna happen. I really don't. I like to live in positivity. But I recently saw Rachel Cargo speak and somebody asked her, like about the impending doom that like hangs over our heads, and how does she feel about it, you know, as somebody that is as you know, she is fighting racism. She was like, listen, I just live my life the best way that I can. I do my work. She's like, but honestly, I am not optimistic.

thing that people are forgetting to to take into account. Alabama, those people voted forty actually forty six percent of white women in Alabama or I think it's actually higher than that voted for a white male pedophile over a black man oh to be in office. Yes, and that man is who helped pioneer the push of this overturning. And so when we're talking about government, we're also talking about local government, like what are we doing on the ground floor,

because yeah, cheetoh and chief can do his things. But like, at the end of the day, the United States governs as fifty separate sorry fifty like fifty separate. It's fifty separate states with fifty different fifty separate laws. Like each state is allowed to do what they want, and as that's why you are abel to have what we have in California. We're able to have what we have in New York because we're educated, we are open minded for the most part, like we want change and we want

we don't mind other people doing well. But in some of these other states, I feel sad for my sisters out there because like that's where they live. They are simply being punished based on the fact that they happen to live in this state. I literally brought it up.

these babies, you know what I mean. And they're still trying to figure it out. And was it going to take like if Roe versus Way were to get overturned, we're going to have to go out of the country to get abortions, Like well, they're making it illegal. They're saying if they find out that you went somewhere, you would be imprisoned. And they're giving doctors life in ninety nine years. And it's and also and no exception in

rape and insects I can't. It's they think that they have my my rapist spape, that's God's plan for you. I've never even understand that because I'm not like a huge God believer, But like if this is your you know, your master and your person, you know, your your being, your spiritual being, Like why do you think that he wants to put you through pain? Ye suffering? That's not God, That's not what God does. And so when these people

hide behind religion, it really it just flabbercasts me. I mean front of.

Back then, I mean, it was just control, mind control. And oh, because that's another crazy thing. I read that, Like in the mid nineteenth century.

And by taking away these these rights, there are a lot of them will just be moms. They won't ever pursue their they won't they don't think that that's an option. And they don't have the means to, like, they don't have a floor, I can't they can't get a nanny. They can't get a nanny for the few hours and you can go do what the fuck you need to know, you know, like those things, those options don't exist for them. This is this is the abortion bands. It's just oppression.

It's impression of women. It's a war on women. And that's why I'm so scared. It's a It's a war on women, for sure. It is. Because the thing is is that they don't care what happens to us after the babies are born. They don't care what happens to our babies after they're born. Ye, they're gonna go a lot of some of these babies are gonna go into adoptions. It's like, if you're really about people, Like, if you're really about helping people, why aren't you trying to fix

our education system? Why don't you want to fix our environment? Because if we don't have a planet, who gives a fuck if you can have an abortion or not. You know, So it's like it just doesn't add up. And the only thing I can think of is that this is a war on women. I agree, And that's why, you know, I really have become the type of person that I probably,

like a few years ago, would have hated. But I try to live in like pure joy and gratitude and peace for like what I do have, what I can accomplish, the beautiful, the beauty that is in my life, because you know, Toronto Burke said it best, Your existence is resistance.

Like just existing in my life and living and doing the things that I love and being with the people that I love and creating with people that inspire me and having access to that and being able to access to the higher part of my brain and vibrate on a higher frequency is the only thing that's going to keep me sane, because if if I allow myself to be consumed in the things that I can't control, I'll die,

you know. So I'm like, I've just become this like huge advocate for finding the joy in your life in whichever way that comes to you. You know, whether it's like buying fresh flowers or if it's like fucking reading or like talking shit, whatever it is that like makes you feel like you are at peace, Like, do that because there are forces out there that want to destroy us and so just living in your joy and living

in your purpose. That is a fight in itself. Absolutely, It really is more than ever now because there's so many distractions and there's so many things to make you feel less than constantly, and you don't have to because everything that you like, everything that we need is inside of us. It just takes a really long time. It takes a lot of different experiences and people and deep, deep, deep diving to understand how to access that power. And like, I'm not somebody. I'm not going to say that I've

accessed it fully because that's not true. But I'm getting there and it feels good, and I feel like the more I can access my power, the more I can help other people that are powerless.

And I think we don't realize, like this is a grand time to be a woman, to be a woman of color, but like the community that we build by by having the conversation in a fucking foot locker party saying I've had X amount of abortions and creating this conversation and being honest about it, and you know, just having that conversation is like shifting er because thought process on how you know.

That's what got them there in the first place. And that's one thing that they did, right, They all talked about it, they were loud about it, and it turned the other racist person to the right to feel like, oh we're out here. Yeah, I'm a join on your

on your carriage. So for us, the people that are trying to to live in our truth and want peace and want love and want visibility and all these things, the best thing that we can do is be loud in that and take up space in that so that we can bring, you know, more of our sisters, more of our brothers that like feel the same way that we do, and we can build this energy field, you know, and that will vibrate out to those other states where

this shitty, these horrible things are happening because those people like they've they've been asleep because they've had no choice, right, you know, that's the environment that they were bred in. And so but from struggle and pain comes beauty, you know,

and you have to find how to get that. So and now we have the Internet, so they can see, you know, girls who maybe felt powerless can see can relate to somebody in California, can relate to somebody in Tolsa, Oklahoma, and be like, oh, if she can do it, I can do it too. You know. Beyonce even said it in Homecoming. She's like, I just want people to see what I've done because if my country asks can do it, they can too. And so that's why I truly believe like living fully in your joy is like one of

the most powerful things that we can do. And I was program I'm a New Yorker, you know, I was programmed to be like bit please, like cynical as fuck, you know, like yeah, like like you know, New York We're like we thrive off of how much we can beat ourselves up, like how much did you get done today? And now I you know, I just I can't live like that. I want to live in peace and enjoy, and I want to radiate that so that other people

can be attracted to my field. And there's gonna be some people that are gonna be like the old of me and be like, ah, she's so annoying with her positive let me tell you, the day will come where they will have to face those truths you know about them and look deep into why they're like that, because it happened to me, you know, I had to understand why I was so negative and why I always looked for like the shitty things in life. We're programmed to

do so and annoyed by other people's happiness. Yes, yes, because you don't you feel like you don't have any which is bullshit, you know. I was, well, you think it's you think they're not being genuine, Like no one's that fucking happy kind the fucked it you know, and sometimes they're not being genuine in it, are you know? Jada Pinkett. I saw her at the Red Table talk and she was talking about gratitude, which is something that I've been I was telling you Miila earlier today, like

I do a gratitude journal every single morning. Well I try to, you know, I list three things that I'm grateful for after I meditate, and it's changed my life. And she said it. She was like, even in this home and you know they're the Smiths, like they have an abundance of anything that they need. She was like, there are moments where we feel empty and there's a void.

And what I've had to teach Willow is we're gonna sit down and we're gonna fill that void with gratitude because we always have something to be grateful for, Like even if it's a fucking roof over your head, clean sheets, clean water, that is something, you know, a conversation you have with your friend, a flower you saw on the street, Like, there are so many things that you can find joy

in anything. Taste coffee, man, legs. Yeah, you know, no, seriously, you can go right, you can go wherever you want. Your legs will take you where you want to go. And of course there are circumstances where it's desolate and life is really hard. But I've been to some of the more impoverished communities in the world. You know, my mom has done a lot of work in the Dominican Republic, and like we've done, we've met, and there's always joy.

There's always joy. Like people could be living in nothing, Goanada, and there's always joy somehow, whether it's through music that you could literally make with your hand, or like a conversation that you had with your friend, like your grandmother, like whatever. And so in this modern day, how are we how are we not able to see the clear the clarity that is was already within us, right, so I just didn't I try to I try to work on that. That's like that's like what saved me. That's amazing.

I mean, I feel like even hearing it is a reminder to myself. I mean I always try to do that as well. But even this morning, I woke up and I woke up and I haven't been meditating. I used to meditate every day. I've been falling off, but this morning, I think it's a lot of it is because either me and I re wake up at the same time. Sometimes I'll try to meditate with her, but she's like, looks over and said, are we done? She's like, you have me to sit still for how long? Like

just ten minutes. But I woke up and I was like, Okay, I know I don't have time to meditate, but I'm gonna like sit here and go through a list of all the things I'm great for in my head. And I did that, and I just I woke up and I woke her up, and I just felt immediately like might to start my day. I feel amazing, you know,

And I'm not grateful for material things. I'm grateful for the people in my life that I'm able to wake that I'm able to share, you know, a conversation with you this morning that you know, I have a beautiful, healthy child in the other room that I'm gonna wake up and get dressed and experience her joy. Because a child's joy is so pure, so pure. And you know how old is Dakota. He is about to be sixteen months?

Oh my god. Yeah, just being able to experience that daily is such a reminder of like all this other shit doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean it does in ways, Like we're talking about aborshit and our rites, and we want our children to be okay, and that's what that's really like what I fight for, you know. But at the end of the day, presently, at this moment, like what are we grateful for?

It takes time. I mean, shit, I'm thirty one, I'm gonna be thirty two this year, and I feel like I'm just really understanding my happiness and what makes me happy. And like you know, when you're a kid, you think, oh my god, twenty five or so old, you should

have it all figured out. That no, And to those women that are listening right now, because I know we have people that listen from teenage, like at like late teens to you know, forty plus, but like for those young women that are in their twenties, like, it's okay if you don't have it figured out. I didn't, you didn't. It doesn't find it, it doesn't define it. I don't really have to figure out right now. I told you. I just I'm always flying by the seat of my pants.

I'm thirty four years old. I had to restart a career. Like it's it's hard, it's never going to be easy, but you have everything that you need to survive in.

really is the most important thing. And like at every in every stage in our lives, for us all we're constantly growing hopefully, and like there's no number, there's no age where it's supposed to be perfect or shit's supposed to be right, Like even in the conversation of abortion, I think a lot of times it's it's way easier to discuss an abortion when I was in ninth grade

or an abortion in my freshman year of college. But it's not as easy to discuss like you know, I was with my husband, you know, and you know, and now you have that a baby. It's it's always even for me, like having an abortion after having a baby, Like these are things that because.

potentially gonna be your husband. Now you're talking babies around twenty eight, hopefully you have them before you know, and then yeah, like Lord Jesus ring, I gotta be big, he has to be like we have to have place.

marriage in September. Oh, thank you. And you know we were raised so differently, I mean just literal black and white, like he's white. I'm mixed. I'm black. I'm black and Jewish and Latina like all these things. And so our experiences in life just are so different. And the things that we had to worry about are so different. Whereas I had to worry about everything and he had to worry about like almost nothing, economics, economically speaking, you know, like he had a leg up as opposed to me.

Who you know, my mom was a musician and bohemian and like you know, worked really hard to make ends me and thankfully she got out of that. But like, we're just so different, and so the things that I get riled up about and that matter to me are I was built to be that way. My mom marched in the civil rights movement, you know, in San Francisco, and like she she's like, you know, always been super political. So that was just a part of me when we got together. You know, my husband was kind of like

a derelict. I mean, we were both derelics in our own way, but like I was always very much like I had my goals and over time, I remember there was a specific moment, and I think it was when all the girls went missing in Nigeria. And I brought it up to him and he didn't know what I was talking about. Yo, I went buck wise. We were in d C. I remember, it's all coming back to me. We were in DC. We had just had dinner and we were walking and we were talking and he didn't know.

And We're in the nation's capital, and I'm like this, motherfucker. I'm like, what do you do with your time? How do you not know about this? It's been all over the news. And I got so angry with him for not caring about humanity and not arming himself with information because the man that I'm gonna be with needs to

be aware. And I really think he took that to heart, because not to say that he's like, you know, up on everything all the time, but he definitely listens to me more and wants to know, you know, what's going on, and he's happy to have me as a teacher when it comes to, you know, anything in politics or just like culture stuff that is not relating to things that he likes, which is like actual art, like he's an artist, you know, street culture and like baseball music, like those

are his things. And so we have a lot of discussions and I think One of the more recent discussions we did have that was kind of like eye opening for him was about how we were going to raise Dakota and speaking towards sexuality and how men's relationship with women. And I told him, you know, it's like right after me too was happening. And I told him, I was like, you know, for for this to change, we need to reprogram how we raise our boys. And he didn't really

understand what I meant by that. He was like, he was like, what do you mean? And then I gave him an example. I was like, you know, when a little boy hits a girl, we say he does it because he likes her. That's not it. And I remember him looking at me and being like, oh, I'm like yeah, I'm like that's so messed up. And so it's those conversations that we're having, you know, and sometimes it gets really heated, and I feel bad because I expect him to know things that he doesn't know. But I'm always

working on him. I'm always I'm always gonna do it, especially when it comes to anything that's race related, you know, because he doesn't live my experience and it's annoying to have to teach people. But he's my husband. I love him, and he's the father of my child, and I want to make sure that whatever needs I need to be that need of mind that needs to be met, like he needs to know that they need to be met. And so if I'm not talking about it, like how

do I expect him? You know, because not everybody lives in our experience, and like this is I think a conversation that we need to be having in general, like proximity is real, but with our friends too that are not people that are not women, are men, but just in general, the way that we approach these conversations with people. Yes, there are some people that don't deserve the fucking time and day, but like in terms of race, gender, all

that stuff, like it's about proximity. If you were not brought up in a home that talked about this, it's really difficult to reprogram your mind to see other sides of things. And so you know, that's just how it works with us. We talk a lot, and sometimes I

just babble and he just sits there. But for the most part, he's receptive and he's understanding, and you know, it makes me feel very confident for the way that we're going to raise our child because I want to have a home where these things are talked about, because that's why I am the way I am, because my mom talked about this kind of stuff with me from when I was a kid, and you know those moments where were like, oh, Mom, like this is so embarrassing,

like don't talk about sex. But like it does make a difference, and we need to normalize these conversations and have them with our spouses, have them with our friends, or not be afraid of potential conflict. Also learning how to speak in a way that is not off putting. Yeah, and it makes them want to sit down with you, sit at the table with you.

and you know, it was like we had it. I had to break things down for her, and it was very difficult for me because I also looked at her as like somebody that I assumed would know all of these things, and she didn't know any of these things, and I was like, how the fuck do you not know this? Like a just because when I think of like interracial relationships, I've never been in one, but not

because I like shy away from them. I just first of all, white men don't generally hit on me, or maybe I don't notice for really, yeah, maybe I don't notice. And also there's been that excite I think that's where it started, and now it's to the point where now I'm just like, well, I like what I like. And also I don't want to I don't want to have to have that conversation, which is not fair either, like I don't want to have I don't want to have to explain the races to you. I don't want to

explain my outrage. I don't want you to get annoyed by my outrage and then you get annoyed by you. But then I also didn't even think about like, Okay, it's not even just him, but then he has a whole family that i'd have to true but they might be uncomfortable. But when you want but but you can't help me love and like and if you have a partner that wants will if you and wants to know who you are, what your experience is, especially now having a baby that you know, maybe maybe to the world

might not look like he's black or yeah. But like sometimes people feel like when they have those babies, they don't have to have those conversations with them because they're gonna have all you're his mom MPAs too, and they all know. I don't take this. I don't take this lightly. It's very important to me because you guys have been together for so long, have you experienced like a lot of judgment in your relationship? You know what, No, people

think we're a beautiful couple and that's awesome. Also, Zach is kind of ambiguously like racially ambiguous in his looks. Sometimes depending on what he's wearing, he can look very white like a Kennedy, but he can but he's you know, because I looked at him before, like he's from the Lower East Side. He grew up around like his best friends are all people of color, like you know he was. He's an artist. He's a graphic designer. He grot graffiti like it's like not. So he can look Puerto Rican

sometimes or he can look Latino sometimes. And he's part Sicilian, so there's definitely like some other blood in there, but for the most part, no, But what I have experienced personally with him, I'll give you one example. It's so sad that that I feel this way, but at moments he validates me depending on where I am, Like I feel validated by having him next to me, and that is something that like, if you're in a white space, that's so crazy.

And when you go to Martha's Vineyard there you fly, you know, from Boston or we were flying in from New York on these tiny planes, and you know, Martha's Vineyard is a white town other than Oaks Bluff, which is actually the first it's one of the first places in the United States where black people were actually allowed to own property. Wowow, I didn't even realize, yes, because this is like this is a I know you've seen

The Inkwell. The Inkwell is about Martha's Vineyard. That's what the movie The Inkwell is about Martha's Vineyard because so that what's now called Oak's Bluff is where all of the nannies and like how and like and like Butler's and stuff would live. And the people that, you know, the white people that lived there, they wanted their staff to feel honorable, so they you know, and like I think there was also like some kind of policies. Like it was just like there's like a really deep history.

I'm not super familiar with it, but yeah, so there are a ton of black people on Martha's Vineyard, but there were none on this flight. So I got on and Zach I don't remember why he got on after me. So I'm sitting there and I'm like it was like really intense. I really wanted him to get on the plane and sit next to me, because whether they were or not, I could feel the eyes on me. And you know, I'm a mixed kid. I've always been confused about where the fuck I fit in, like always, and uh,

it was just a really intense experience. And there's been other moments like where we're walking on the street and Zach does this thing where he walks like four, you know, six feet ahead of me and drives me insane. I've been literally asking him for twelve years to stop. Yeah, taller, his legs are longer, and I'm like, I need you to be next to me, especially now we have our kid, Like if he has a stroller, I'm like, I look like the crazy, like black lady behind you, like trying

to catch up. And you know, maybe that's just my own internalized racism that I've had to deal with, you know, but like those are real things.

for mine. And the whole time I'm sitting there, like like water, I'm talking like, like everybody got water except for me. Yeah, and I'm like and then it would come later, and then like the food, everybody's food would come and then mine would come last. And I never get my food last. Zach is actually the one who always gets his food last. The whole time I was sitting there, all I could think about was that they

were racist, and maybe they weren't. We have literally grown in this world where like my second week of college, I was making out with a white dudent and somebody scream nigger lover out the window. Oh my god, you know, and I'm from New York. I haven't really experienced that at that time. I was eighteen, you know, in University of Delaware, like oh, two and a half hours away

from New York. It's not far. It's tiny, it's right there, but far enough for you know, somebody to drive down Main Street every Sunday with a Confederate flag, you know, waving from their truck, because that would happen. And so, you know, we just I just know what's out there, and it's really hard. And the thing is is, like Kanye said it best, even when I'm in a bend, I'm still a nigga in a coop. Like, no matter how hard we fucking work, people still assume that you

are what they want you to be. And that goes for everybody. It's not necessarily only a race thing, but we definitely experience it more like I've been in the park before and everybody thinks I'm Dakota's nanny. Nobody thinks I'm his mother, And then you know, some white, well meaning white ladies will be like, oh, it's because you just you look so young, and I'm like, is that way? Oh God, I'm worrying a huge engagement ring, Like really,

that's what you think? You just didn't like scan me properly. You do you look like a woman. Yeah, I'm a grown ass woman, a woman, So you know, it's but what's really interesting for me now is that because i'm you know, my father is Panamanian and Jamaican and my mother is like Eastern European Chew German, Polish, Russian, and you know, she did her best to kind of inspire me to lean into who I am culturally. But unless

you're surrounded by it. It's hard. Like I don't know anything about my Jamaican family because my grandfather came over from a grill to Panama to build a canal. He never went back. My grandmother and clothes it a day, So I don't even know anything about like my black,

black Jamaican side. But I have just now, in my mid thirties, started to really see myself fully as a black woman, not just as a Latina, not as a mixed kid or you know, a jew, which is another thing I used to hide behind because I felt like it validated me to white people. I'm like, nah, I'm black.

I'm proud, it's great, you know, and I'm I am happy that I can be this woman now for my son, you know, and hopefully for if I have another kid, you know, whatever he or she comes out like like I want to be this, this confident in who I am, because then they can't break me, right, and I don't think they'll be able to break my kids either if they see it in me. So well, what an incredible mom? Like, how lucky are your kids? You're an incredible woman yours too,

all of us? I mean, dank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm just so happy that you share your knowledge with our listeners. And yeah, you're an incredible woman. So I'm happy. Thank you. I'm really happy to You're a great way to spend my two I only have two days that I get to work outside the house, so this is like a perfect way to start it. I thank you. I'm so rapful. And it only took thirty five minutes.

It's not the valley's not that far. Good time. Yeah, like even now you leave, you'll probably you'll be okay to go in a wee hose. Yeah, I'm just so happy that you came. Thank you. Can you tell our listeners where they can find your podcast? Yes? Please? Well, I just started my own podcast. It's called The Women I Know, and I think you might have to. You might hear these ladies on it. It's very new. We

only have a few episodes. But you can find that on my website, which is word dot Agency, no dot com, just word dot Agency. And there's a bunch of stuff on there. How do you do that? I know, it's like that I bought a dot agency. I didn't have dot com. It was taken, so that's what I did. Okay, And that's also my company Instagram word Dot Agency, and then my personal Instagram account is Zoila z o I l A dar N d A r t o N and yeah, come find me. I'm always like talking some

shit and trying to be cute. And also I'm always like connecting women and connecting moms. I live for it.

I love it so much, especially because you know me and Jimmy la A on this this unexpected journey of like I mean, I've always obviously, like I think when I was young, like I was always kind of like I always felt like I didn't have like a huge connection to like women. I always was kind of like felt I think growing up, you know, as moms and as women, we think they were protecting our girls by saying, oh,

they don't like you because they're jealous of you. And so I was always felt like I was in a competition. You're looking at me confused, but no, I'm laughing. I'm not looking. And I feel like I'm in a space now and it's taking me until my late twenties and thirties to really be like, no, this is not a competition.

We're all in this together. And I feel so glad that I'm on this journey of like empowerment and being able to empower the women that we that listen to us, and honestly, they empower me Mela as well as too. It's a it's not a one way street. We create out of necessity. Yeah, and so anyway, I'm so grateful that I met you along the way same year. I love you, ladies, love you, Thank you for having me here. Yes, okay, guys, We'll see you guys next week. Make sure to follow

us at Good Moms Underscore Bad Choices. We have new merch on our website www dot Goodmoms, Bad Choices, dot Com and.