Mmmm, this is.
Welcome back to good mom's bad choices. I'm Erica and I'm Meela.
And it's Wednesday, bitches.
Happy mother fucking hump Day, Happy hump Day.
How are you.
I'm great, I feel good.
I'm feeling like powered up for the for the first of the month, the last of this year. I'm ready to, you know, close this out strong and start again even stronger.
And uh.
In honor of this month, this month's theme is Power Moves December, because we are going into January feeling powerful because this year has been you know, it's done its thing, it's been great, it's been high, it's been low. But we always like to enter into the new year feeling activated. And I thought, what better way to start this month than with the guest we have here who I am so excited.
I'm so fucking excited to have her.
She came all the way out to our little studio, deep deep in the valley, and shit, she's on a press tour for her incredible book.
We have, Jamel Hill.
Thank you, ladies.
I appreciate you having me here. I just feel slightly nervous. I'm so nervous. If I told my mom, you're coming. She's like, Jamel, She's like, I might need a swing by.
I was on record.
I was like, Mom, don't fucking ring the doorbell.
Okay, I know it's really rare that I like tell my family what's going on in my work because nobody cares. But I'm like this morning, nine am, Hey guys, just hi everyone, Hey grandma, I hey grandma, I'm interviewing Jammel Hill today.
Decided to let you go us know that I can't bite.
No, I'm nervous just because I listened to you guys all the time. You have a fantastic podcast, and you're just like so lit and you're so interesting and you just made me feel sown boring.
So that's all just like, ain't nothing boring about you.
I'm like, man, I'm gonna come on there, and uh, you know, compared to the lives they live and the things they talk about, I was like, my whole lame score at us, Like this is about you are a trailblazer, right, okay, three you saying that, but no, I like your your freeness, your boldness, like these things are all attributes that very much inspired me. So I'm I'm very excited to be here and slightly nervous.
Well, thank you, don't be nervous.
We don't bite well unless somebody ask you to.
This is just a light bite.
Well, welcome to the show.
We usually start off our show with an affirmation, so I wanted to see if maybe you had when you wanted to share with our peoples.
I do so the mention that I wanted to share, which is is kind of central to me, and that is to and obviously it coincides with my podcast is named it is to stay unbothered. And a lot of people when I say the word unbothered, they think that that means like not to give a fuck, But that's
not what it means. It means to stop giving a fuck about the wrong things right about the wrong energy, about the people who have tried to sabotaze you, the people who a gonna always talk shit about you, the people who are going to interrupt your flow with their negative energy. And so you have to stay in a space of being unbothered in order for you to really
be your best self. You know, it's kind of like that old adage you have to dance like nobody's watching, And so that's sort of the mentality I try to use when when approaching life, because if you start doing things based off how you feel people will react, you'll undermine yourself every time. So everybody out there, stay unbothered.
Stay unbothered.
When I think if I'm bothered, I think of like the emoji of the fingernail skinning painted, Like that's what I think. I'm like, sorry, I mean, how have you like that? That's a huge statement and it seems small, but like even for you, I know you've come from
like a very corporate background. You've done a lot of journal like journalism, it's a very male dominated, white dominated industry in space, and like I'm sure you've had to I know you've had to bite your tongue a lot and like stay in this space and probably put up with a lot of opinions of people you didn't give
a fuck about, yep, and bite tongues. And I think that is really like that is a huge, a huge testimony, because a bitch like me, I'd be like, listen, I got some shit to say, like you're fired.
Fuck well, I think when you get into corporate America, especially corporate journalism, you kind of know what you are signing up for that. It is something you have to wager, like, Okay, on one end, there is this truth that needs to be told. On the other end, I'm dealing with the same white power structure that everybody else in every sector
of corporate America that's black is dealing with. And so you just kind of have to decide that what you're there to do is worth more than the people sometimes that try to suppress what you're trying to do. So you fight a lot of battles. Some of them you in and some of them you lose. But the whole point is that you're there to provide a certain amount of resistance. So even though I came from very traditional media,
it was very instructive. It helped me develop and too, I think, to be the best journalist that I've ever been. And now that I'm in the season of really being in the business of my own brand of being an entrepreneur, everything that I was able to take and learn, the lessons, the obstacles, I've taken all of that and now I've amusing that as you know, sort of the foundational training as I proceed with this season of me. If you will.
Tell us about that, like tell us about your journey, your journey. I know you're Detroit, and I know you've done journalism live in Connecticut, Like how did you end up here in this space with your own network?
And like you've come so far?
Man, this is not at all what was in the career plan when I first started in journalism. And my old ass has almost been in this business for thirty years, which is frightening to think about. But I started when I was two, so you know, it kind of makes sense. But I was very lucky to be one of those people who knew really early and really quickly what I wanted to do the rest of my life. So I knew in tenth grade that I wanted to be a
sports journalist. And that's a very unusual dream to have for somebody who grew up in Detroit, in the real hood, not the rap hood. So because of that, you know, it just I would never have imagined that somebody in my position would have the thoughts of doing this. But it was a couple of things. It was one I love to write. I was a voracious reader. I love sports, and back then, to keep up with your sports teams,
you had to the newspaper, So reading the newspaper. It clicked in my mind, like, oh, people actually write about this shit for a living. Okay. So I joined my high school journalism staff and started writing for that. And the professional paper in Detroit would publish the high school newspapers, so you had to go to a professional newsroom to
get your newspaper published. So the first time I stepped into a professional newsroom, I was like, Oh, I could do this shit, Like I really like the energy, the vibe, you know. It was just a lot of electricity in the newsroom. And so ever since then, this is literally all I've ever done. I've had only two jobs that were not journalism related, and they were more like seasonal shit. I delivered phone books. I know most of your audience listening is like, what the fuck is the phone book?
Remember the Yellow Pages or the Yellow Pages?
Right?
That shit is not easy to carry, okay, But I was broke and I was in college, and what it was, they paid me seventy cents per book delivered, So I had to deliver a whole lot of fucking books just to eat, you know what I'm saying. And I was slinging them shits everywhere too, like that that damn Yellow Pages, might you know, wind up on your roof fucking around
with me? So so yeah, like I did that. And then I worked at a snack counter at the W at the Y m c A. Which I don't know why anybody ever put me in charge of anything that involved math, and also me minding the store because when my friends came in, I just gave them all the shit did I mean they got the hook up? I was like, why didn't the person who owned the next store, why didn't it ever dawn on them that it was six dollars in the drawer, but all the cheetos are gone?
And like, what this ain't adding up. So I've been very fortunate to always have pretty much been a page roll list my whole life. And you know, the original dream I saw for myself was writing for Sports Illustrated because I was a writer and that was the preeminent place for a sports writer to write for Sports Illustrated. And I was like, if I can just make fifty
thousand dollars a year, I would have made it. And so my second job out of college, when I was making forty seven, I was like, oh shit, And that taught me a lesson, which was it's not that our dreams and goals are too high, it's that they're too low. To think that that was just it, and I thought like, oh, I can retire after that is kind of crazy to me now looking at the life I lead. So being
at ESPN was never on the vision board. Creating a podcast network for black women was never on the vision board. Being a podcaster, or even do a television none of that. All of those were things that happened based off adaptability. None of that was anything that I planned. But I think that's okay, because you know, some of your greatest surprises come from when you make these kind of spur of the moment decisions that you have no idea that
are about to be life changing. So thankfully I made some good ones because otherwise, you know, this could have gone in a totally different direction. But yeah, that was sort of my pathway, I guess to this point. But yeah, I mean I worked in Detroit, Raleigh, Orlando, you know, lived in Bristol, Connecticut, where ESPN is headquartered for four and a half years, spent twelve years there and being in LA I got here just because I wanted to
get more into film and TV production. I was obviously podcasting. It's the first place. It's the first time I've ever picked where I wanted to live since I became a professional. So I didn't want to fuck with anymore snow. I wanted to be in a big city and I wanted to be able to throw a rock and hit a black person. That's all I needed.
And I was like, I'm good, all right, because I'm sure in Connecticut it was few and far between.
Yeah, I mean they had a strong, believe it or not, had a very strong West India community, not in Bristol, in Hartford. So I lived in Hartford because you know, living in Bristol, it's like why, but yeah, I mean it's just it just feels very white. And me and a friend of mine, my girl, Carrie Champion, who also is an on air personality, She were not laugh about
the shit all the time. And she was like, you know when we hit rock bottom when we were in Bristol, and I was like, when when we went in that bar and they had carpet, we.
Got to get out of here.
She was like, she was like, they got carpet And I was like, girl, girl, we used to I mean, no lot like Bristol. It's hard to explain like ESPN's in Bristol because it's sheep land. They get amazing tax breaks. And the founder of ESPN was from Hartford, which is
twenty minutes from Bristol. So if you want to be on air every day, more than likely you have to live in Bristol, Connecticut and you're in a profession where you go where the work is the problem that it's just it just kills your spirit, not your pair, but just living there. And we laugh about this all the time because Carrie and I were there at the same time, although I did a longer be it because we call her a bed like I did a four and a half year stretch. And you know we up in Ruby
Tuesdays like eat I mean shit Conega. I would never eat elsewhere, right, No, no shame, no, just if you with Ruby Tuesdays because why you're playing that black and Tilapia is kind of everybody, right.
You cann't listen, right, No tilapia, no anti girl.
That ain't no real fish. That's a farm rais this fine? Okay? Well that fish is and that needs to be.
They're farm raising that fish, making tilapias on you their farm.
Raising out there. They're doing some kind of genetically don't trust.
I did like tilapia for a long time until I learned the things about that.
That's why I don't educate myself abuse.
That's why I don't do it because I know for a feracious reader on certain ships, I don't have a ship.
You want to know, right, food is out the US.
Don't ruin it for me, you know what I'm saying.
It's like something gonna kill me, black head to be some delicious black and tidy black and trying to kill us with the tilapia. That's the first Okay.
It's working. They've succeeded.
We had that go through some wood Bridge shark and thought we were like, I do like what but but to a select But no, that was life in Bristol. It's like a bunch of chains, not a whole lot of flavor, very white, very cold. And you know that was my life for four and a half years. So when I say I finally got a chance to I was like, I can be in a city that has us, that is thriving and all this. I was like, I'll take these fucked up state income taxes is all good?
How long have you been in LA.
Since twenty eighteen?
Me?
He wasn't my husband then, but because we were, we were dating seriously and we were long distance, so we this LA is the first time we lived together. You're in the same city, right, he lived. He was in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Oh wow, And then you were and I was in Connecticut.
I both moved here, and then you guys moved in together.
When we moved in together, and he proposed two months later, which was really shocking.
You guys dating before we.
Had been We met in twenty fourteen and got serious in twenty fifteen, so we had been dating about three years.
Why were you surprised? Why was it shocking?
Well, we had talked about marriage. We had had a ton of those, like you know, if we get married or when we get married. We had a lot of those. But just move into a new city, across country, move for both of us. Thought we might need some time to just settle in and then just see how we felt about like living together. Like we had traveled so much together that I certainly didn't anticipate like, oh, if he leaves the cap off the toothpaste, I'm a fire.
On his ass, like I didn't like, I didn't think we were gonna have those kind of moments. But it's an adjustment, right, and so you know, I again I was, I was really he got me, he was. I was very stunned. So he proposed the day after Christmas.
Is marriage something you saw for your future? Like, were you like one of those little girls like one day, I don't know, get married.
No, not at all, not with the marriages that were in my family, you know, like my my mother, my great aunt, and my grandmother. My great aunt and grandmother are no longer living, but between the three of them they were married eight times. So yeah, now they was in them streets. So a r ip grandma and great aunt Gene.
I know, y'all was out there, but now they just and I saw a lot of disaster in terms of relationships, and my mother had very difficult, painful relationships with men, and I just did not want to make myself vulnerable in that way with another person. I mean, I certainly had serious relationships, but I was never the little girl thinking about the big wedding, thinking about prince charming or whatever. If I never got married, I would have been totally fine.
So once I, you know, kind of got to a certain point, I actually was thinking like, oh, yeah, this will probably be it, and that's that's cool. You know, when I met my husband, I think he was kind of actually on the same tip. But men always are like they never you know, they maybe think about getting married, but it's never a central desire for them. So we kind of had the same mentality, and you know, we
enjoyed each other's company. We had a great time, and I'm sure somewhere God was like, well I got something for y'all to motherfuckers right here, and then you know, next thing, you know, a great love was born.
That's beautiful.
I was listening to your episode with Angela Rye and she was talking about how out of the friend group like You're like, she's she's really proud of you because you're not always the most vulnerable. And then this book that you have Uphill, which congratulations a Ques book.
Y'all make sure you go check out Jamal's new book.
You really kind of get vulnerable and you get really open in a way that no one's really ever been able to experience, and dig into your childhood and really people get to understand why maybe it is.
You don't have that idea of marriage and all.
Those things, and even that your husband kind of kind of pushed you in ways to be more vulnerable, which I think is which I think is often it's so unique because I think women, we are usually the ones that are like, go to therapy, like talk to me,
why don't you cry? You know, And so to have a partner that's been able to do that and and just and support you through this this journey of from from being a little girl till now, I mean, obviously he didn't know you then, but I'm curious to know, like, aside from you know, you've had this amazing career and I'm sure maybe you've been offered book deals in the past. Why now, like, why what propelled you to want to write this book and really and really get deep the money?
Honestly, that was I didn't want to write a memoir. I did see myself as an author. I want to be a fiction writer. That was it's safer. Yeah, you're right, I mean, and maybe that's part of my not being able to be vulnerable. It's like, oh, I can create a world, and some of that world might be drawn off my own personal experiences, but nobody will ever know what that is, and so I'm not exposing myself in
the same way. And you know, essentially, my literary agent told me that there was tremendous interest in hearing my story and that was kind of shocking to me. And I know people are like, why would that be shocking, Well, you know, just because people may know me for being at ESPN or know me for what I said about Donald Trump or or whatever, that doesn't mean they want
to know the full story. But he's like, no, there's going to be a lot of interest in there was, and he once the book went to auction, that's when several publishers bid on the rights to your book. He said, listen, this is a good way for you to accomplish that other dream you want to do, which is to be a fiction writer. Like, get this book out there that people you know hear from you, know your story, they'll be invested in who you are, and it'll be that
much easier for you to take that next jump. And once I decided that, okay, yeah, this is a good pathway and the money's good, so why not. I'm not the type of person I don't jumping shit halfway. So I'm like, listen, I'm looking at this as like a one shot deal in terms of writing a memoir, so
I gotta lay it all out there. And I know that sometimes when people read celebrity memoirs, they feel like they pull up their punches or they feel like I don't think they were being totally true, like yeah, that they're just maybe trying to make themselves look good and all of this, and then I'm willing to expose certain things that have happened to them or to be honest.
And I was like, now, I'm not gonna do that to people, you know, because certainly as a journalist, transparency, truth, those are things that are core principles of what I do. So I just decided here's what it is. And what's funny is I'm not good in terms of vulnerability person in person getting better work in progress, but writing. Being vulnerabile in writing has never been hard. And I don't
know why that is something to ask my therapist. Shout out to you, doctor Streeter, but yeah, just from the you know, I write a lot about how I kept journals as a kid, and maybe it's because it was my first original Safe space is being able to write down how I felt, no matter you know, how fucked up it was or you know, whatever it may be, knowing that it was a space of no judgment. Writing that's what it is, and so it wasn't actually that hard for me to reveal some of the things that
I did. Now if you sat me down in an interview, it might be different, or if you're one of my friends. Because my friends were reading this book and they didn't know a lot of shit that was in here, and they're like, bitch, you lived a whole nother life. I was like, I did. I did so, so yeah, so I think you know it. Just it wasn't as tough
from that standpoint. The toughest part about writing this was all the conversations I had with my mom, because you know, we have she has her own personal trauma, which then became shared trauma, you know, as somebody who's was molested
as a child then suffered a very horrific rape. Sharing some of those things, or asking her about asking her about those things, that was the tough part, because you know, with her addiction and everything, I'm literally asking her about the worst moments of her life, right and having to put them into print, and so that part was tough. But actually the decision to share and open up in this way, it wasn't as hard as as people might think.
I was just curious about I'm curious about that too, because me and me La, we just turned in our book a few months ago that's coming out next year, and you know, feeling like, you know, you're talking about other people too, and you're sharing your truth about situations that maybe are not their truths. And even with your mother, I mean interviewing her and really and her having to be a core part of the story line because she is like, was she open to that? Was she was
she scared to share? Or was she ready to share?
And she was ready. She was very ready to share because she really felt like her testimony, our shared testimony, could help somebody. And these are a lot of the things that I discussed in the book and the incidents, those are things that, you know, most of which we have talked about throughout, you know, our relationship. But there were a lot of things I did not know, you know,
at all. And because some of the things happened when I was in college, you know, I did not know, for example, that my mother first tried heroin when she was eleven. I had no idea until I talked to her about it. This for this book, which you know, kind of one of the takeaways that I want people to have is that you need to have these conversations with your people, with your parents, you know, like asked them about their shit. They have lived entire lives before you,
before you came into the picture. They've had this appointments, fears, failures that you don't even know about. And I think it helps you give them grace and it helps you see them as a full person.
Yeah, it humanizes them, and they humanizes them so much because if not, I mean especially like if your parent has been a drug user your entire life, you might look at them as like, you didn't show up for me in this way, I hate you. You didn't do this, You didn't do that when you really understand why it is.
And for your mother, if you don't mind me sharing me a good book, but I know that she was molested by her uncle for many, many years and her mother didn't believe her yep, or chose not to believe her, and then moved him in to live with them. And that's what and that's when she ran away from home, and that's when she tried heroin. So it's like then you start to see how the dots connect, Like, Okay, so you were you were a survivor.
You suffer. One of the worst betrayals that a daughter or a child could suffer is it when their parent, in the worst moment of their life, doesn't take their side, doesn't support them, and even worse, tells the rest of the family she's a liar, and then it just set into motion their relationship being complicated and turbulent. The love was definitely there, but that betrayal is one that never healed, you know, never did even up until my grandmother's last breath.
It never never healed. And so once I understood that part of it, I knew about the uncle, I knew about what my grandmother did did not know, as I said, about when she first, you know, experimented with hard drugs.
And then once she told me that, I was like, oh, now I see what the through line was is that you've been self medicating for a long time because that was your only refuge and it just as much as I'd forgiven my mother years ago, and that wasn't a whole lot to forgive because the one thing that I admire about my mother is that she's always been accountable about it and even at the height of her you know, usage if she was she was gonna do some shit, she would tell me she was doing it right. And
so there was never any surprises, so to speak. And because of that, that is what made that capacity for forgiveness to be as broad as it was, because I think most people, what really keeps that resentment going, especially toward a parent, is when they don't own their shit, when they're not accountable, that just that sets the that sets the conversation and the relationship off in a different manner. And so because my grandmother was never accountable, that is
why their relationship was as fractured as it was. Even though my mother, you know, she never abandoned my grandmother. She was her caretaker, especially when her health got really bad, and only maybe once in her life does she live more than fifteen minutes away from my grandmother. But there was you know, but when they fought, they thought, and it was bad, and I was caught in the middle sometimes and so that would be a tough position for
me to be in. But you know. This is why such a powerful theme in my memoirs is just about how that generational trauma just can just really eat up the inside of a family.
Shout out to your mom for like having the bravery and the wherewithal to not only be accountable, but then be like, yeah, actually you can't.
You should write about it.
I think it's time to write about it because, like I think, especially as black people, we come from long lines of secrets, and that's our business.
You don't. You don't go out and tell our business.
That's right, what happens in this house.
And you know, growing up under the under that like scope, it's it's just it's subconsciously built in you and you and you literally feel guilt about telling the truth and until and even in adulthood, it's it takes a lot to undo that that not that curse, but it is
a curse. But you also have to think about like how deeply it's seated and like where it comes from, and just like having parent a parent to be like and you should write it and I'm going to sit down with you and tell and tell you about it. From my perspective, is so powerful and I think like even for Erica and I I didn't realize how powerful it was for me to just like come talk about shit, you know. Like we've had a four years of like vocal journal, you know, and it's been so therapeutic talking
about it and talking about it. And then same like even this book that we're really like writing, like writing it and releasing it and like letting it go, and it really does. It really does like heal generational curses. It's really like putting shit into the light and letting people learn and be like, oh damn, I'm not the
only one. Like oh my mom also didn't believe me, or this happened to me and my family, and like, and I think I was going to ask you, like it's one thing to write about something and then you know, walk away from it. But how do you how did you think you're going to feel once it was published
versus how do you feel now that it's published? Because I think even though you know what powerful moves you're making, I think sometimes it's like even for me, my BO doesn't even come out yet, and sometimes I'm like at night.
Like like it's coming out.
There's something I could do, you know, But like because I think there is like embarrassment, you know, like damn, Like, people are gonna know my life.
People are gonna know where I came from.
People are gonna know the dark secrets of when in reality it's human shit. People are going through shit, and you're like the woman you are as like powerful as you are because you've been through these things and you've had these experiences. But I think sometimes we shy away from that and just want to show people like the product and not all that's happened up until that point, you know, So like, how has it felt now that it's out people can purchase it and read your words.
So intimately, yeah.
It's a it's still a little unsettling because depending on I guess what people knew me for and at what phase in my life. Like I was used to at ESPN people coming up and asking me sports questions, right because that's they saw me on ESPN so naturally, and then even after all the controversy with Donald Trump happened, I was used to people coming up to me like, let's talk about this racism. I was like, yep, let's talk about it, and this white privilege. Okay, let's go.
So but those are things that there's a level of cognitive dissonance for me because that's not about my real life. It's just like, I'm just yeah, it's not personal. I'm just pontificating on some shit. Yup the jets, yep, yep ye racism. Can you believe these white people? I guess I like, those are different. But now, and I remember, Gabrielle Union is a friend of mine. She told me this when she wrote her first memoir because she had, you know, has shared the fact that she suffered a
traumatic rape. All these women knew Reddit were coming up constantly sharing their rape stories, and I was like, girl, like, how did you? That's so heavy, right, and you want a comfort, But at the same time, you have to protect your own mental space. And so that's the part
that I'm still kind of bracing myself for. Because I'm happy that people who know people in their lives who had to suffer with addictions, and even if they had to navigate around somebody else's abuse, or even haven't been sexually abused, all of those things, I'm glad you can relate to the material. At the same time, I'm concerned at the end of this of if people are doing the same thing, like what mental impact will that have
on me? So far, it hasn't been that. Most people have been like, oh, I was really inspired, you know, they say a few words, but and then just being embracing yourself for being asked about it, because again, it's one thing to write it, another thing to talk about it. And so I just guess to answer your question, I still don't know. I feel fine today, but I got three more cities.
To go down, three more cities, and the lifelong it's always imputed. Yeah, books and people coming to you, And I mean it is because then and they will, they will come, and they will they will want to share, and you.
Will have to protect yourself in ways.
And I know even for us sometimes like people share, so we're always sharing, and then people come to us and share such intimate parts of their lives.
And I'm like, am I giving good advice to you? Am I supporting you? Like what happens after this? Are you okay?
After this?
I'm thinking about them like later on in my day, like.
Gosh, okay, I don't even know her.
No, that's a real thing. Yeah, because and even not just about my reaction. You know, my mother and I we did red table talk, and it was overwhelmingly a positive reaction for sure. But you know, I just hope as she because she lives in Michigan still, and I just hope when she's just going about her daily life that people aren't rolling up to her and being like, oh, you know, tell me about that time you diocrats like yeah,
because they're not. Because sometimes people, when they see you out there in the public eye, they feel like it gives them license to say certain things to you. Like I'm used to being in a public guye. She you know, Denise is not you know what I'm saying. So I don't know, you know, how she's going to handle some of that or even you know, being more in the limelight and having such a very complex story being told and absorbed right in in the public. So we're just
learning as we go. So this is definitely a very different sort of chapter than what I'm used to in terms of being in the public eye in this way.
Well, I think, gosh, your mom, it sounds like an incredible human. I mean, she's gone through a lot, ye through a lot, and she's she's here and look what she's birth, you know, and she's giving you this gift too, of like transparency and honesty that like you said, so many people they don't they do not get and you know, I think that that's there's something to that, there's something
really magical to that. And even being able to now speak it out loud, I would be interested to know how you feel in like six months, I would too.
All the talking.
Yeah, really, I really believe and advocate for I think speaking and you know in therapy too, like speaking really is healing. And the more you have to talk about something, the more you are able to release it. And I know you've already forgiven your mother, but there's probably other things in this book that you maybe still are like working through and in a lot of ways definitely.
You know, in six months you might be like, yeah, you know, I'm cool now I'm doing with that well. And then you know, realize that not everybody got to see this book, and it's you know, before it was finalized. My mother she read it, my husband read it, my pother says read it, and some of us, some very select friends. But like my dad just got it, like he didn't get until after it was can you read it? He did, and does you have opinions? He did which he shared on Facebook.
Facebook, and they.
That's their diary and we have not had a conversation about it, so.
That that's what you just saw it on Facebook.
And he never heard about it on Facebook because my my mother let me know one and she was not happy about And I don't I don't even I never read what he posted. So I have no clue. I don't know what how he feels about it. But however he feels about it, and he should have called me, and so I'm very curious as to how that phone call is going to go.
Yeah, I mean, should people have you know, you have to meet people where their at, you know, and and or.
Not meet them at all. That's a word, that is a word.
Yeah.
I didn't feel obligated to, you know, call every single person that was mentioned and say hey, just so you know, uh, the people who because and I know you guys probably went through the same thing. Is that because you're sharing your story, you wind up sharing other people's story too.
So I was very sensitive to the fact that I wasn't trying to tell anybody else's story, right, So you know, that's why when I uh talked about having an abortion in the book, I didn't give the real name of the guy that it was because I don't know if
he's actually told that story to anybody. And you know, to me, even though we have not spoken in probably more than a decade, it would be you know, kind of grimy of me to just like throw his name out there and there, Yeah, you know what I'm saying and be like, by the way, you know it's not don't worry about it, right, It's like, that's not his same you ain't even close. Don't be worried about it. So you know, I was just being sensitive to that.
And while yeah, there are other ex's in the book who I use their full name, but like, nothing outside of regular relationship happened. Regular relationship should happened between us, So I didn't feel like, oh, I got to tell him about that time you aske didn't put the milk up, you know what I'm saying, Like I didn't have to do that, but you you do have to be, you know, really careful about that with relationships you actually want to
maintain and have. You know, some of the people mentioned like, I don't give a fuck, So it really didn't matter.
Right, honestly, I mean, honestly, to be honest, I didn't check it with really anybody, but I have been. I was mindful about, like making sure that this was my my testimony, and I'm not over sharing things that don't really have any relevance too, and I had my editor was like, okay, so I think you need to scale back. This is not important.
Oh really, I was like, this is my dark this motherfucker, but at least look my first draft was four hundred pages.
I don't even know I was capable of writing this many pages. I was like, how many pages?
And I was like, you need to eliminate one hundred pages.
I was like, how's my life, bitch?
But I think that's good that you you put everything in the kitchen sake, like that's what you do. You put everything in, and then that's how the story starts to form. I put it all in, and then as I got some notes back, they didn't tell me one hundred pages. They were like, this could be, you know, just more cohesive, and I was like, okay, but I started to see the story. I started to see the beginning, middle, end.
So but you, to me, you only get there is if you put everything in, and then you can start to arrange the puzzle pieces so that this all fits into something that again is very cohesive. So I think it's perfectly fine to overwrite. Sorry, book editors out there, I know.
I was listening to your story about how your mom went throughout your journal and I had I had a very similar situations. I journaled all the time. It was like my my safe space journaling journally. I have like fifty fucking journals from my child. I don't know what the fuck I was talking about.
You still have them, yes, okay.
Lots of hate speech charts my parents. But I had more than one occasion when they read my shit, and I remember it being so fucking like I felt so violated, and it really fucked up my relationship with writing. Like there was a point where I literally created a language that I still remember, like literally I have a code, like I can write in this language because I was that paranoid about people reading my shit, because I was writing so like personally, and there's a time where I
stopped writing. So I felt like when we got this opportunity to write this book, you know, like time constraints, checks are being written, They're like.
You guys need a ghostwriter and I was like, no, I must hurt my own story.
But I realized, like if there was a block, you know, like from being violated that way from my parents.
Like that that that avenue.
Of like therapy that I had, you know, invested so much in as a child, I felt like I couldn't trust it anymore. And it was like writing this book was like a way of getting past that and like getting personal again, because there was a time where I felt like, bitch, don't be too honest in this shit.
Now it what happened last time? Bitch, you can't did they once they read it? I assume they confronted you with the information?
Oh girl, girl, I was writing about like my lesbian lifestyle. I was like, I want to be a lesbian now I w in eighth grade and they're like, you're not a lesbian, You're not a lesbian. I'm like, I'm not a lesbian.
I was thinking.
At one point, I was like a like a Christian school, my mom must have kicked me and I wrote about it and child the Christians un took my journal.
They called child services to the house.
What yes, the child services came and I was.
Like, she didn't kick me alive? I was like, bitch, you kicked me.
I know you remember, They're like, you better, you want to go to you want to go to adoption services.
I was like, no, I'm sorry.
It was very traumatic, you know, but I don't think parents realize like what a mark that leaves, because I had it happened to me twice once my mother when she read it, and I'd say in the book what happened as a result. And then I had an ex that did that, that read it. I had an X too, and that shit hurt. That was something else. And the thing that really pissed me off about it was the ex reddit didn't tell me he it, but used everything
in there to sort of weaponize the situation. Oh like like because he then had insight, because he had insight, and he also you know, there was some information in there about you know, somebody at one point that I had messed around with, and I never told him about it because you know, some man.
They get a little at your goddamn business.
There's that part insecure, they get insecure. That's why I didn't tell him. And I was just like, I'm not gonna tell him because me and the dude, we were just just friends, right, and you know, it just happened one night, and uh, we were because we were still friends. I was like, I don't want to make this weird because if I tell him he attu attitude. I just
don't really feel like going through all that. And but and I think his position would have been you got to in the friendship, right, And so I was like, I didn't even try to go through all that. So I was like, I just won't say anything. And so he knew it, and he kept pressing me constantly because I had written about him. He wanted me to be honest, and I was like, why does.
He why does he kill?
And then he and then he finally told me that he knew like he was on some just super secretive, not super secret of some like extra manipultive, narcissistic shit. So he knew he knew I had he I had supp with this dude, and he kept asking me about it, knowing I wasn't gonna tell the truth about it, right,
so he already he's already setting me up. Then then he goes, this is how I know you're lying, And then he said because he said the guy that I slept with have been telling people, and that's how and it got back there and everybody knows he completely lied about how he found it out. And then you admitted, well, then I did. But then I called the guy and went in him. I was like, he was like, and he told me. Then he was like, I just want to let you. He's like, fine, we don't. We don't
ever have to talk again. It's all good, you know, whatever, whatever, But I just want you to know your man is lying to you. I never said a word to anybody. He's lying. And I was like, because I couldn't think of how else he would have known. And I was like, no, you probably lie. So we totally fell out about it
or whatever. And then finally one day we were having a conversation and you know, he said, he said something like, you know, tell me something I don't know about you or whatever, or tell me something you've been wanting to tell me. Like we're just having a conversation. I don't even remember what I told him. And I asked turn a question on him and he was like, I read your dirty and I.
Was like, motherfucker.
I was like what, And I'm thinking he gonna tell me, like, you know, I snuck a cinnamon roll and I told you I wasn't like something trivial. I was like, what, And so he tells me this and then it's like a beautiful mine where he's at the chalkboard and all the shit starts clicking together, and I'm like, ain't this a bitch? And when I tell you I was, he did.
I was so angry because I was like, okay, so not only did you violate my privacy, you then weaponize the information and manipulated this situation just to get me to stop being friends with this dude who's free, Like I just I blew up to rule a relationship, right, like, and you were live from the beginning because you'll, you know, right,
because you were insecure. And I'm not saying that I was right for lying to beg to begin with, Like I should have just told him the truth and then if he would have said, like, oh, you have to stop being friends with this guy, then we just would have had to just deal with that, which would have been a no. But we just would have had to deal with it, right, So okay whatever, But for you to just create and concoct the situation, I was like, I blew up at him and it's the only time
that I've ever been in a relationship. Why I swung on the dude the only time, and because because of that, so I have very traumatic experiences because you.
Know what, it's like, it's bigger than that, you know what I mean.
I realized, like it's it's like a physical safe space, but really it is, like it symbolizes feeling safe because like, no, you didn't have to tell him you slept with your friend.
It's not you.
It's like now you know, so now I feel bad to tell you. But my therapist told me something because she said that her husband like call himself reader her diary because I was telling her about this childhood experience that fuck me up. And she was like, I told my husband the version of me that you get is this version because I get to write that stuff down.
Now if you look at it and you go look at that version of me that's on you. I was like, write this down.
Damn, that's good.
Now if you get that ugly version that's on you, because this is I write that down so I can get the this version of your wife. And I was like, whoa, you can you have to write the ship down to get it out and that could be ugly and dark and all these things and the secrets that no one's supposed to know. But I realize is that, like it's like a it's like a symbolism. Like as black women, you like, think of the relationships you've been in.
You didn't tell him because you knew he was insecure.
You didn't tell him because you knew he couldn't under he couldn't take that truth. And then still honor and love you and support you. And a lot of times we feel we we we and we feel that energy, and so we lie and we hide ourselves and and
then we don't feel like we can express ourselves. And then we're not vulnerable because we don't feel safe enough to do that because we haven't been put in scenarios in households, in families that have supported us in ways that say you could be dark and ugly over there. That's okay, that's a part of the experience, and get it out and write it down and in fact, it's like that didn't happen. I'm not apologizing, So that shit away.
Don't don't talk about it, don't think about it, don't speak about it, don't write about it.
And then you're just stuck with all.
Of these feelings of ain not feeling safe, not even in yourself that like damn, why am I doing this?
Why did I ho out like that? Why do I have these feelings?
And you don't feel safe expressing them and getting them off? And like I think that's the like the play of like a lot of black girls growing up, Like you don't feel safe anywhere, not in your family, not in your household, not in your relationships.
And I didn't.
Realize how like once you can feel like, okay, mom, I'm okay here. Oh you're not gonna You're not gonna leave me, You're not gonna beat me.
You know right? You still wanna be my mama, you know what I mean?
Like, then you can finally like deal with all of the all of the child childhood shit, all of the darkness, all the things like damn, am I like this? Or am I like this because my mom was like this to me? And is she like this because her mom was like this to her? And why is her mom
like this to her? And you can sit with all those feelings and sort them out, But it's not until we're like we really feel safe enough in our own bodies and our own selves and our own families and support systems to do that that things become clear and then we can become this version of ourselves to have platforms and be like, wait, ithould be five years to get this shit out, to be like I'm working on myself,
you know what I mean? Like Eric and I have friendship is like has really grown in our podcast because this is like my first friend and we both grew up in the valley and the majority of my friends here are white, And as I got older, I'm like, oh, we're having differences. Oh you don't see this the same way as me, because you.
Don't get it, bitch.
Oh you have a daughter and you have and now you're a single mom and you feel like a baby mama. And like I felt safe enough to be honest about where I was at and how I was feeling, and like, have this friendship that has really made me feel safe enough to show up as I am like, yeah, you might not like it, but fuck it. I have a friend who supports me, and I feel safe here, so I'm allowed to speak my truth and even though it's scary, still, I'm allowed to be vulnerable. It's given me strength to
be vulnerable and to be like imperfect. So it's just like sorry, like went down.
No, no, I mean appreciate.
You Know.
What I think about when I'm listening to this and both of you is like, how vulnerability although it can be truly uncomfortable, and you know, I think in ways I'm still working through my own level of being totally vulnerable as well, but it becomes a superpower. It really is a superpower. And it's how we all kind of
connect to one another. It's how we even understand our boundaries, even like you don't really know your boundaries until you kind of are honest about shit and honest about what you need to do, and like, you know, people don't like boundaries.
And also when you look back on how the opposite like festers in your families, when you look back on your family history, and I look back at my mom, who who's done crazy shit?
But she's like, you know, we don't tell nobody.
I'm like, bitch, this is the problem, right, you know, Like when you see how it festers and how it manifests in our parents and their parents and how angry like my grandma is, I'm like, what the fuck is so I angry about but like all these things because you haven't felt safe enough to express yourself and be vulnerable and be soft, and like, I'm just thankful as like black women, you know, especially with like your network, I'm bothered network, you are literally creating a space for
black women to unapologetically show up and be like this is a safe space for you. And how powerful it is when you put yourself other black women in the position for other black women to hear it and be like, oh, I can do that too, I can relate. It is some powerful shit that's that's taking place because that hasn't
been the privilege of most of our lives. It's taken these like weird turns, you know, like speaking your truth and then like like no, bitch, corporate's not for you, this is for you, right and making this making the spaces for you, and like it's just it's so interesting how even when fucked up things happen to us, when you can tap into the vulnerability and tap into your truth, how pivotal it could be because, like you said, I'm sure you didn't expect to be podcasting and like writing a
book based on your personal memoir and you're like very happy in fucking you know journalism where it's surfaced and it's not personal at all, but how transformative it's been when you're able to dig deeper and like be honest and show all the layers of you.
Yeah, I'm being exposed is actually a good thing. And I've said this before about marriage, or at least about my marriage. I obviously can't speak for everybody else's. Is that. One of the reasons it was like the best thing I've ever done, is because it did force me to expose myself. And I've been in so many relationships where I only had to show versions. This was the first relationship I was in where I had to show everything and it was very frightening it.
Yeah, how did he challenge you in that way?
Well, because I think the way that he is, like he's a very like direct person. If something is bothering him, he just he said what it is. He over communicates and so he's he's very and he likes that because he's he he's the type of person that if he doesn't handle something a certain way, he cannot rest. You know, it's a Bertha, He's a Leo August six. Yeah, so you know, you know that Leo here, they got to get it off that chess right there. I was like,
you don't have to do it every time. It's okay to save something later. And I'm the opposite where something will happen. It might it'll bother me. And I was like, let me think about this for a second, like I'm strategizing how I want to approach something, or I decide maybe it's not really worth mentioning at all. And by him being as out front as he was, I have
to at least meet him halfway. So he's demanding something of me emotionally, and to be honest, most of the men I had been with had never put a demand on me. I was largely in control of those relationships, and so this one was the first one where there was a level I had to actually step to step up to. And I was like, oh shit, this just different, right, I kind of gotta bring like my agay, okay, I can't just be you know, kind of uh, just turning
in an average performance. Here. I got to like really do something. I gotta dig deep. And and he's somebody he asked a lot of questions, you know, because he's curious and he wanted to, and that for me was always a turn on because I'm sure you guys have been on dates before. They won't ask you about your life at all. They will tell you everything about theirs and won't ask you nothing.
I'm dope as fuck. Don't you want to know? Right?
Aren't you curious? You know? And that, just to me gives a red flag of you really aren't You really don't even care to know me as as a person, regardless of how this turns out. I mean, it could just be a relationship, it could just be a flirt, it could be something else, just something physical, but that means that you really don't. Honestly, it was about knowing
anything about me. But he was never that way and so because of that, uh, it just forced me to be much more transparent than I was used to being. Plus he's like very secure in who he is. Also wasn't totally used to that either, and it took a little bit, even after we got married for me to to trust that security. I mean, I saw it, but when you're going through situations where it hasn't been there. He was like, dude, I really let me try, Let me let me throw, let me see, let me just
little degrees. Uh, but yeah, but no, it just marriage really exposes, uh exposes you because that person is getting to know you on a totally different level than anybody else. I mean, you're you know, you're living it together, doing everything together, and you know it was a pandemic where we locked down or is a pandemic, but during lockdown, like we are up under each other and getting to
to get to the core of some stuff. So yeah, it can be pretty frightening at times for me because I'm just like, oh, I'm not used to to doing this, and I think one day he had like said something that he just meant as an off hand comment, but it bothered me. Now, normally I would have just kind of blown it off or just thought about it for a while, like when do I want to bring this
up or how? But I took a step out of the room because I had to do something in another room, and then I thought about it, and then I just reversed course and went back and be like, hey, when you just said that, like that.
Really hurt feeling.
It hurt my feelings. That bothered me. What were you what did you mean by that? And then he told me and I was like, oh, okay, I misread that, and he was like, see that's the value. Then you want to turn into a teachable moment. I was like, am I to ask you all that? He's like, but that is why he's like, I want you to share with me so that if you do have a misunderstanding or something, or just to open you know, kind of the lines of committed. Because I'm an internalized yea.
I will like shut down. I'm like, I don't want to talk anymore.
I won't necessarily shut down, but I'll internalize and be thinking about it without communicating, without communicating it and without really dealing with it, so it would be in some lock box somewhere deep in my soul, bothering being. But then you know it's it's also bad because if that person who may have done something that I didn't like or I should have addressed, then when they do some you know, small like forget to hold the door open for me or something, and when I lose my ship,
that's like, where did this come from? Because I hadn't two years ago when you said I remember that time, like, I don't say exactly, No, I don't. I don't. I don't remember that. So I have tried to get out of the habit of doing that, because that's how you wind up totally disintegrating relationships because I'm like, if I give a shit about working on the relationship, that means I have to be able to share these things.
And not let shit like fester and grow like resentful.
I think also for you, like like like being in corporate, being around a lot of white males, and like probably navigating very powerfully in your in your career. You know, it is like it's interesting how you can like navigate so powerful in your career and all these other things, and then when it comes to a relationship, the struggle is vulnerable bit and you're like, I.
Can do everything, but those are It's so costly for
black people to do that. And I think because we do often have to be in spaces where we have to code switch, where we have to minimize, where we have to shrink, that we would be naive to think that did not carry over into our real personal relationships and our real relationships, Like, of course it does, because we're forced to be in that mode probably eighteen hours a day, you know, most of us, So it becomes like such a terrible habit to try to break.
And it irritates me too.
So many people are like I hear on the internets, like you know, black women are so masculine, you know, like you know the reason you're in this position because you so you masculine. You want to be the man and the woman. It's like, no, nigga, I've had to, right, I survive, like we're right, niggas.
A lot of you didn't show up.
I wish I could wear my flowy dress in the garden, right.
I being a delicated woman, you know, like this whole like this.
We had an episode with Daphnie called the Return of the Soft Woman, and like, you know, and I feel soft ways, but sometimes I like, girl, it's not it all work that way, you know what I mean. And like even having to reprogram myself, like you know, like you do deserve marriage, you do deserve to have like a supportive partner.
You do deserve to show up delicate and soft and shit, you.
Know, because like I find myself even with my daughter, like I am like a sweet mom, but sometimes I'm like girl, no, I'm like.
Get the fuck up, stop, Like and she's seven.
And I'm like, bitch, this is your mother, and I'm like and your grandmother, But this is what I'm conditioned to. Like, you know, I'm not like bitch, but like girl, I'm not with all the bullshit. I'll talk to her like that, like I'm not don't play with me with the bullshit.
Get up, let's go.
And I'm like, and I've been around some of my white friends.
And they're like, you can't say that.
I'm like, yes, I can, you know what I mean, But like having to remind myself to be soft with myself, to be gentle even with my boyfriend.
Like.
Please get me some soda, like they could give me some soda.
But it's hard, though, to break that because you know, I think for so long it is one of the byproducts of everything is let's go back to slavery. Slavery and just of the trauma we've suffered as a people. We have often parented our kids for a harsh world by being harsher than the world.
Protect and ways to protect them.
Let me get you'll get this here, let me get you know, let me do this.
And on the field, this is might be punishable by death. Cort ever see you.
So it is so it's like we get really, really harsh. And you know, my mother, like one of the of the many things she apologized for was some of you know, some of the beatings she gave me because it would be over a lot of times, it would be over little shit losing a barett or you know, kinship kinshit like ship that kids normally would do, like not being quiet or being restless. That's what kids typically do. And you know, there's a generation of pairs that will fuck you up over.
There, and that's the beginning of losing your voice, that's the beginning of thinking I can't I can't express myself.
Don't cry, boys, don't cry, but keep a sup what you crying phone?
Because girls get to that shit too.
Like you literally can't cry because it's not a good enough reason. And I think being black, there's like there's so much survival that that's required that a lot of times it's like, yeah, suck those fucking tears up. But when you're a child, that's not like that doesn't sustain a safety space, and so you're going into the world not feeling safe and you get those like that innocence taken away from you.
You're not using your voice you're shutting.
Down, you're not using your feelings, and then you become grown ass women who can navigate in the workspace. But it's hard to have a husband who want you, want to get married and love you, and you're like, ugh, relax, relax with the love, babe.
It's a bit much.
That loss of agency, though, is something really important, because I think that was you know, for me as as a child, that was the emotion that was difficult, is that it just the law. I just didn't have any agency,
and so I hated that feeling. And of the many wonderful things I discovered in therapy, because I start the book saying that how and it is a true story how I started going to therapy on a dare because my mother kept telling me I was angry, which only made me angry because I'm like, I ain't angry, all right, But it wasn't that. But once I started going to therapy, what I discovered was that I was a control freak. And I did not know this about myself. But then
I just started to unpack it a little bit. And what happened was because of that sense of not having any agency, I went out of my way to overcorrect that as I grew into adulthood and beyond, And that's why my career has been such a primary focus for me and making sure I did the right things, got the right internships, followed a certain path. I was very regimented about what I did because I wanted to be sure if I can't control shit else, I'm gonna be
able to control this. Know if that if I put this particular you know, effort into it, I know what the result will be. I can count on that. I can't count on people out here, but I can count on this giving me you know what I need. And you know, I didn't discover that toil like four years ago. So I'm like, Dawn, I've been fucked up this. I'm been trying to control all the shit because I'm not that really that way with like personal relationships, but definitely
about my professional life. Like I can I can just get very anxiety feeled and very like, oh, I got to know, like how is this going to pan out? Like just which is not really uh, not really cohesive with kind of the lay back spirit I generally have.
I think it's probably like it's funny how shit happens for a reason. And like how when you are looking to heal and to grow, like God will put things in your way and it's like, no, bet, you got to examine this.
You can't just keep functioning in this way. And I can even imagine.
For you, like having this very successful career as a sports journal working at ESPN and then saying something that you feel like is within your full freedom of speech.
You're like, no, this is my job, bitch, And then they're like, Nope, too comfortable, you know what I mean, and feeling like even feeling triggered by that in ways because you have you've done everything, You've done all the things, and you've worked your way up and you and you and you are and you're like an amazing sports journalist and you've done all the things. And then they're like nope, and they're like what the fuck, bitch, you know what
I mean? And I can only imagine how that can shake up this little girl who's who's put all these things in place and controlled all these things and gotten to this point. And now you're like, what do you mean. It's still not it's still not solid. There are still ways and ways you can like shake up my whole ship and take things away from under my feet and I and I like, I'm sure now you're in ways grateful for that shift.
Definitely. I mean, as you said, is that you know, God does put things in front of you that he wants you to dig deeper on. And it was what I realized after all the fallout from the Trump stuff is that I had gotten complacent in my career to some degree. I programmed it to such a degree, but I'd gotten complacent in it at the same time. Because once you're a place like ESPN, it's a destination place. You know, people want to end their careers there and
say I've been there. Yeah, I've been there fifteen as a woman's huge, Like you know, it's it's the equivalent of when you hear black folks say, got that good government job. It was like, literally, you got benefits, you
got right, all of that. And you know, I had other dreams for myself, other things I wanted to accomplish, but I was content with just you know, running out my contract and just like, oh, I'll just wait to this whole ESPN thing is over and then I'll get to some of the things I really want to do. And that's such a dangerous mindset if you get comfortable. Because you get comfortable and you're making the presumption of time, which if enters anything, we know you cannot make that
presumption at all. And once all of that happened and I realized, after you know, I got suspended for a couple of weeks, that my relationship with ESPN was untenable. At that point, I started to plot my steps on out of there because I was like, yeah, we we I think even in a personal relationship, sometimes you reach a point where you know, you you know, when the last straw has has happened, y'all might even still wind
up being together for a couple extra months. But you know, just like that story I told you about my ex reading my my diary, I was just like, oh, I knew it was after that, I was like, oh, this ship is done. And it was just like, okay, I know this is the end, but yet how is I got to applot out how we do end, or like how it ends?
And that's that and that and that and that again, well that is a testimony.
To that that that.
Way of thinking of way how you plan things out even even out of that and that's and that's amazing that you were able to do that. And I think now that you haven't bothered the unbothered network and you don't have to tip toe around shit because I think as women, we have to tiptoe in relationships.
We tiptoe around.
Even we know, like this is over, I'm a tiptoe around the Shiit same with like in corporate America, tiptoeing around and in the space that you're in and the beauty of podcasting and it's and I think podcasting is getting more corporate now we have frands, wallships, all this.
There's a level.
Of tiptoeing, but there's still a real level of freedom, absolutely that I'm sure that you've probably never really experienced.
In your works.
I mean, this is it was. It's kind of a weird position. But looking at say Spotify with the Joe Rogan situation, right, I don't fuck with Joe Rogan, Like I don't even know Joe Rogan, Right, I don't fuck with him. It's based off what I do know, Right, But all that being said, the same rules that apply to him apply to me. We're on the same platform.
We're both exclusives a Spotify, and they have never once called me and said, hey, don't say that, like that's never happened, right, And So as much as I detest some of the things that Joe Rogan says, how I do think his platform is so big and he's such such stupid things, like that's what that's for him to worry about. But because he has the license to say stupid things, so do I. Right, And so you're it's
sort of what what works. It works for both of us in a in a weird way, And it does feel good to not have to feel like I have to be so you know, corporate or so you know, kind of buttoned up.
You know.
For a lot of a lot of people that listen to my podcast, they had never heard me cursing like that before. And I was like, oh, no, I I get it in you know what I'm saying.
So and I think also in like in spaces like in corporate, like black women have opinions, are always talking. They always label us as outspoken, right, yes, no, it's the out supposed to And it's like, I'm just honest, why does it have to be outspoken?
Because the word implies that you're doing something extra, Yeah, like they are why you're a little reckless. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's teetering, it's giving that a.
Little bit intense with what I said, and actually I meant everything I said in that tweet.
Yes, we had hit it with the per my last fail what I had said, and so yeah, you're I mean, you're you're so right about that is we often get that, you know, label of outspoken or and we.
Ourselves as that. And I've been thinking about that. I mean, I don't even know if it says that anymore. I think I took it off.
But like why, like because I said, because you're being you're just being honest.
I'm speaking at all because I'm I will say that men on some there's some men that are out there that get labeled that way, but I think it's generally women it is, and especially if you're black or brown, like for sure, outspoken, a little reckless, wild.
Risque, saucy, like it's just yeah, it doesn't. I know they mean it as a compliment, but sometimes it comes off like they you know, they feel like we're just being extra. You know, I'm just unbothered. I'm just.
And speaking of unbothered, I just want to say, I'm so I'm so excited you have our girls.
Yes they are Brittany in Germany, Brittany and Germany. They are amazing and yeah, you you all. What appealed to me about both of you all podcasts is like you have that homegirl energy, but that realness and with a with a with a tinge of wratchet, just a little sprinkle of it. I'm like, okay, you know, and so it's yeah, like they're they're going to be great. I'm so happy that they are now being exposed to an
entirely new audience. And you know, there are their first podcasts that appeared on the network and our second winner, our first original is Sanctified, which think of you know, all the that same, those same qualities and characteristics, but talking about ship that happens in the church, right, It's like that's necessary. Oh, It's very necessary. So they're I mean, how black women worship in this time is really interesting
because because I think there's a generation of us. Maybe it's you know, I am older than you guys, but maybe it's like our twin generations of not really feeling like you have a place in the church because look, you're looking at a church body that's usually dominated by women. All the leadership is men. That's why they still talking
about that purity and chastity shit. Yeah, you know. And so they're meeting stuff like that like head on about where black women fit, about how we're choosing to define our relationship with God for ourselves. So it's really really dope, and I'm just happy. You know, these are the kinds of products I wanted to put out on the network that gave black women a sense of belonging and a sense of place regardless of where you are, whatever station
that you are are in life. And I'm not saying I know one hundred percent down who black women are, because we're evolving and we're complicated. But this to me is at least a step in giving us a you know, an opportunity to explore ourselves beyond the whole savior trope,
mule trope like those kind of things. It's like, we this whole idea that we got to run into the burning building for everybody else, that's like fuck that sometimes we gotta let the bitch burn downers one right, I'm Karen Hell, I don't know, I don't know I can be here, but I'll tell you what, My black as ain't running up in there. So I wanted us to feel comfortable doing that, comfortable putting ourselves first. And that's kind of what this network is supposed to represent.
Oh, thank you, thank you for being you know, the change that we need to see. We appreciate that, like we do need more spaces to be as versatile as we want to and and kind of give permission to black women that you don't have to just fit into this box. It can look like this, and it can look like this like Jamel or Erica or Brittany and Germany, and like you can take a teaspoon of all of
it and mix that. Shut up, and we can come together even in our difference and even in our growth and our dissection of ourselves and are like our liberation on ways, because I feel like like the veil is being removed for us and when we're like, oh, look at her, she's Oh she's over there doing that, let me see what that looks like, you know what I mean? And like just having different versions of black women and having a platform like that is really dope.
So well, thank you. So you know, I'm dying to know what the hell does this card Okay?
Well, I'm ready to tell you, are you.
Because I've just been staring at it like trying to decipher. With the picture at the top of the show, Jamielle pulled the World card.
Yes, shout out to Mahogany Taro are black cards that we live.
If it says some shit like you got twenty four hours to leave, you.
Can just be dead.
No, don't be talking like that. It's it's like an interpretation. But I think I think you're going to fuck with this one. It means upright, It means completion, integration, accomplishment, travel. When the World card appears in a tarot reading, you are glowing with a sense of wholeness, achievement, fulfillment, and completion. A long term project, period of study, relationship, or career has come to full circle that is scary, and you are now reveling in the sense of closure and accomplishment.
This card could represent graduation, a marriage, the birth of a child that's also a birth of a child, or achieving a long term dream or aspiration. You have finally accomplished your goal or purpose. Everything has come together and you are in the right place, doing the right thing. Achieving what you have envisioned, you feel whole and complete. The card invites you to reflect on your journey, honor
your achievements, and tune into your spiritual lessons. Celebrate your success, and bask in the joy of having brought your goals to fruition. All the triumphs and tribulations along your path have made you into a strong, wise, more experienced person. You are now express gratitude for what you have created and harvested. Finally, make sure you don't rush into the next big project. Celebrating your journey will set you up for success when you are ready for the next challenge.
I had gusbops for you, girl.
Wow.
Okay, seriously, that's a good word, because I definitely tend to jump from one thing to another. So maybe I'll try to take a beat as much as a book allows you to take a beat. I will take that under advisement. But what a what a word? Man? Okay, all right, the world, I see you.
Yeah, you know, I know you're ending your book tour in Detroit, so make sure you have a good fun old time there Strip Club maybe Detroit.
Yeah, I mean that is, you know, a therapeutic place for me. I love going to the strip.
We should all go one day.
There's no one here, we're gonna have to go out. I see, I thought that was just me. I don't want to diss l a strip clubs. Glad. I'm glad it's not just me. The ones in Detroit find each other in a city where strip clubs are possibly. You know, maybe I'm Magic City. I've had a blast of a Magic city before. So wings come on, And yet I have never had the wings. I have not had the wings. I've been there to of course put some love young women through college, yes, but I have never actually had
the wings. So I think the last time I was in there might have been New Year's Eve a few years ago. So me and my husband went and had a good time.
It's time, it's I think it's that time again.
A couple that can go to the strip club together stays together.
There you go.
That's my marital advice. Go to the strip club with.
Your husband like that. Write that down.
No, I mean, honestly, though, if I gave some advice for uh and I have figured this out. You have to design the marriage that's that's best for you. You cannot You may admire the happiness another couple have, but you have no idea the kind of diagram they had to in blueprint they had to create for themselves to have that success. There's like no one size fits all, like you know there. I mean, you guys have had talked about this on on your your podcast before about
you know, people engage in like open marriages. That might be what works for them. It keeps them together and happy. It doesn't necessarily work for me, But I understand that everybody has to custom their marriage to what works. And I become I think when I was, you know, sort of single, I was way more judgmental about how people's marriages operated because.
You saw you had an idea for that's supposed to Yeah.
Yeah, because I think we all go into it how we think it might work. And then once you get inside your own, and to be honest, once a lot of my married friends start opening up more about their marriage. Once I got in the club, you know, so we had a little secret medius. It was like, oh, what y'all do that?
Okay?
All right, and so yeah, just don't go into it thinking that it has to be custom designed a certain way, because something there there in every marriage is something truly unique that works for works for them, that would never work for somebody else. So yeah, and also keep you know, I mean, I know, we spent a lot of this time talking about how it can be destructive the whole. Everything that happens in this house stays this house. But
everything that happens in your marriage let us stay in there. Yeah, for sure, because everyone will have an opinion. They will have an opinion. And not only that is that you want to provide a layer of protection around around your marriage, so you can't let everybody into what's happening into your house for sure.
Too many opinions can cloud the mind. Yeah, like some shit don't.
Yeah, this don't even need to be There's that. And also there is this level of sacredness.
Is the special beautiful thing that only you guys share that no one else has. It's not even about whether someone's going to ruin it. It's almost just about how beautiful that is. Yeah, and I love that.
Yeah, definitely.
Okay, So before we leave, wait, no, speaking of relations I know, I'm okay, I'm getting into it.
Without this because I thought we were going to bypass this, but then she said she was ready for this.
I was ready for this, she came prepared, but then you guys were you guys have ruined it because then you started. Don't even worry about that. Don't wry about it. I'm like the threshold. It's like, what's the last porn scenario? Let me just elevator? And it got stuck right every one time this Maleman.
People delivered.
So now it's time for my favorite segment tour story.
This is Jamail hire.
Who stories. I mean, by the way, brilliant segment idea, one of those I was like, god, what did I think about that? So as right now my publicists watching over there in a look of slight horror, like where are you about? She can't wait?
You know?
A couple of disclaimers, all right, One, this is when I was single, long, long, long, long time ago. Right, this is probably at least a good stories, is it? Yes? I think it's over twenty years old? Twenty ish, I should I should say that. So when I was leaving a job, some of my coworkers decided to throw me this amazing party and I was like, ooh, this is my last hurrah. This party is going to be everything.
YadA YadA, YadA, So one of my girls that I was working with, she had been messing around with this dude like off and On, who, to be honest, was kind of community and y'all know what I mean about like community, community, community. He was kind of community. And even though she did she she started to develop feelings
for community and develop feeling for a community. Right. But so she throws me this out some party at her house or whatever, and I mean it's like big, It's like a good old fashioned house party, being in there drinking, we have the good old time. So I see community and me a community with flirt, right, So you do that's what you do because it's community.
Right.
So at the same party, I had invited like another dude that I like liked, and you know, he worked at like a local bank. He was cool. He was like a couple of years younger than me. I was like, you know, I mean, I'm just like in my early twenties. So it's just like whatever. So he's just like, you know what, you got up later for the night or whatever. And I'm like, well, we had a party, but you know, shit, we can get into something after this. So I gave him the key to my apartment and told him to
go wait. Ha ha, right, I just it's for real. So he goes to my apartment where he is waiting. So I was like, ooh, got a situation at home already waiting or whatever. Meanwhile, me and Community are like vibing, and I'm just like this is so surprising, you know whatever. So Community and I have a rendezvous at the party and I completely forgot but I don't wait in my apartment or whatever, because me and me and Community went in the bathroom and the party and you know, did what.
Community, what you do with community anything?
Did community things and you know, I'm having a good old time or whatever. And it was this other dude who was a friend of mine who uh you know, we were We had like just been a little We had been off and on, like very casual, no no commitments. I actually went home with him and left the other dude at the house.
But you left the other dude at the house, community had fun in the bathroom, and then you went home with casual dude.
Wow, that's what I'm done. The job is over.
Comp I was tiring all that ass that I'm out.
I mean, I was like, I just then they at the house I said, where do you go? Did you go home? And he was sleeping your bed? Like no, he eventually left. He waited on me for like four hours. Did you not coming? I just completely forgot to tell you tell him where I was. I was just like, oh my bag, I just the party got too good, Like I.
I'm sorry, your team was forgettable.
I forgot to come home. We had never even that, nothing had ever happened between them was forgettable. It was just, you know, I guess I just there was a development.
He left the vibe, righty things when they're president, like this is more exciting.
He left the vibe.
And yeah, I mean, and it was. It was my last night in this place. I was hopping on the play literally the next day, going to blow it up with a bang, so I say. And then for a while I used to joke with a friend of mine like I can't show my face around there for like a good girl, no.
Problem showing their face. They have no problem. They show right up everybody in the party, no problem.
So that was that, you know, probably top three most trifling things I've probably ever done. That was pretty good.
It was three, you know, So there's.
Like I do love that makes me want to like, send somebody to my house. I'll be right there maybe.
To do yeah, Like it felt like, okay, this is cool to do. And I had the intention because you know, he and I had been flirting for a while, and then it just I was like, oh crap, I forgot about him.
I feel like something that's something niggas do often. Yeah, go wait to the house, baby. I had to run some errands.
Although you know, dudes are very very particular about leaving you in their crib, like if they don't know, you know, because I know some people are thinking, like you would left the random dude up at your house.
I don't want to go into a dude's house alone.
I don't know.
That's dirty, Like did you wash your sheets? Like yeah, it's just more more questions.
I didn't make sure you've been there before, made prepared for me to enter, right.
I was like, I was staying in a little, you know, crappy apartment that with some because it came furnished. It was okay. Still the TV they gave me, I don't about it right, So I'm good.
So anyway, oh my god, Well, thank you for sharing, thank you for coming on the show.
I'm so happy you came.
Thank you.
This was This was a lot of fun. And again, y'all just keep doing your thing. Not that I have to tell y'all how to do that. And I can't wait to read you all's book. Can you devoce the title or no?
A Good Mom's Guide to making bad Choices perfect Perfect.
We're going to tell you all the ways in which you can do that safely, feel free and safely amazing. Where can everyone find your book?
Everywhere?
Everywhere books are so yes, there is the audiobook recording, and of course I'm encouraging people to order from black bookstores. A lot of them were very hard in the pandemic and just in general, I think bookstores are just essential to community. Right bookstores and libraries, those are essential community pillars for me. So yeah, yes, it is available on
Amazon and all that good stuff. But if you can, you know, hit up Mahogany Books or Uncle Bobby's or even if you have a local black bookstore near you, you can probably order online as well.
Yes, I love that, And make sure you check Jamel's podcast out on Spotify.
Make sure you check out the Black Girl Bravado. Shout out to our Girls.
Who are now exclusively on the Unbothered Network on Spotify. Anything else I'm missing.
And also Sanctified, which is Sanctified and which is hosted by Deborah Joy Whinings and woman is Pastor Levon Briggs. Nice and you know where to find us or if you don't, make sure you're watching us on YouTube.
You can actually watch this episode on YouTube. If you click the link in this episode description, you can watch the full episode on YouTube. Check out our Patreon for bonus content. We're going to Costa Rica, y'all?
Are you coming? Did you get your fucking passport?
We're taking months away, so we better hurry the fuck up. Make sure you go follow at the Good Vibe Retreat. Come to Costa Rica. You deserve a five day, all inclusive, amazing, incredible vacation. I promise you will not regret this shit and we'll see you guys next week.
Bye bye.
I'm like, what this is gonna?
Ellena j Solo Baa Record, The Lollos and Elas