Surviving Jeffrey Epstein feat. Lisa Phillips

Atlanta. Guess what the good Moms are coming to your city on April twenty six. We're pulling up at the Black Effect Podcast Festival.

That's right, We'll be hitting the stage with other hot podcasts like R and B, Money, Trap Nerds, Naked Sports, and Sarah Jakes.

And if you've ever been to a Good Mom's Bad Choices show, you know it gets real, real bad and we have some special guests. So I'm so excited to meet our Atlanta tribe. Make sure you pull up April twenty six to the Black Effect Podcast Festival and get your tickets at Black Effect dot Com Slash Podcast Festival. See you there, hey, tribe. Happy Sexual Assault Awareness and

Once upon a time was a good old traditional housewife. Cod She cleaned and cared for her children and the man of the house, and of course she didn't talk back. She was both obeat, hint and soft by nature. She was a good woman who always made good choice.

We're good Mom's bad choices too, single mom who said fuck the patriarchy, shared all their bad choices and found out they were so bad after all, we're experts.

Overshares and your new besties.

Sit back and enjoy the ride.

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Welcome back to good Mom's bad choices. I'm Erica and I'm Mila. Happy Wednesday, Happy hump Day, y'all. How you doing, I'm pretty good. You look cute. Thanks, We're giving Tantrica boss bitch. You know I had a client today. Did you wear this singer? Client? No?

But feeling the energy because I put this on. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna put a blazer on. Yeah, I'm having a good week. I'm just you know, seasons are switching. I had a good weekend with Luna. This weekend, we went to the We went to Alvin Ailey Ballet. It was her first time.

Yeah, I saw. I'm so mad. I like, when I was looking online the tickets were so expensive they probably didn't sell out and so we could just walk in.

No, what happened is I bought them online. I was going I was gonna drop off to my mom because I wanted her to experience it. And then I was like, let me just fucking go. And I found a ticket. It was it was too good to be true. It was Orchestra for sixty eight dollars. And then I got there and they're like, oh, stub Hub's been scamming people all day, so we've been giving. We've been selling tickets

Though.

We left like a park birthday party. They drove two hours to get to. Then I went to the ballet. But at the end we saw Angela Bassett and my mom was like, and then I was like, and then she was like, and then we were all like, and then here goes Linda. That's the girl from Wakanda. I was like, girl, that's Tina Turner. I was like, look at the fucking age difference up in here talking about that's the lady from Wakanda.

I mean, well, that's the beauty of her career. It's spanned so many fucking years. She's been so many different.

Characters, right, we're all star striking, like meaningful.

To different people at different stages in their life. Yeah, that was like pretty.

I felt like I saw a black royalty. You did, so that was like walt. Yeah, me and my mom and Luna were all hype.

So it was really cute.

And then yesterday we watched Mawana too, which wasn't as good because it's not as you know, Lynna Mmanuel Miranda didn't do the music. I only know that because Linda told me. And and then we rode eight mile eight mile bike ride eight miles.

You and Luna, where the fuck did you go? Didn't Elle's house? So you drove, You rode there and rode back. Wow, it wasn't that bad. She was a bit proud of her. Yeah, she was like it's hot.

I was like, it's gonna get hotter, so you might as well.

Did she like stop for waters and ice.

We stopped for one water and you know, I pumped her tire, poor thing. I think she was trying really hard,

I'm like, canm. I'm happy obstacles, You're like, get it together. Her first fucking ten mile ride.

She's had a long one before. We were like in the street, like in the bike lane too. I'm like looking behind me, like, please, God, nothing happened to her. I'm fucking biking her eight miles.

Oh my god. It was fun.

We had a good time.

Then we went to dinner and she told me secrets from her school and I was like, perfect group, best friends, tell me everything.

So we had a good We had a good weekend, so I'm happy. That's cool. How was your weekend? It was good. We saw Cleo Soul so that was great.

Oh yeah, we did that too. I had the weekend of the arts. Yeah that was great.

And then what did I do the day after that birthday party? The birthday party? I drove two hours the birthday party, shout out to Nearland, Happy birthday, Julia, We love you. I lived for as fuck, so everywhere I go is going to be that. And then yesterday I did something that I've been wanting to do and I'm happy to share that I finally did it. Me talk about this on our episode with Nicole Russell generational silence about interviewing my grandmother and my great aunt and my mom,

It's recorded, you can always reference it back. You can keep doing it and make it easier the second time.

Yeah, I have.

One great aunt left. I'm like, do I need to go to Philly and like this one she's Jehovah. I don't know how open she's going to be. I feel like all the Jehovah's are cool.

I'd be surprised how much people are waiting to share.

Okay, thanks, Yeah, so now I feel I didn't even think about her as an option, but she's like my last oldest living relative. So I have to so thank you for the inspiration and I'm glad that you did it.

Yeah, it's important. Well anyway, you guys, we have a special guest here today. I'm really excited because this month, if you didn't know, a sexual assault awareness and prevention month. And I met this beautiful woman that say next to me a few years ago at the Model Experience. Shout out to Ashley Runway and I was hosting a panel and we connected and I've been watching her journey over the last six months and I'm so inspired by you.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you for coming.

Super excited to be here.

So I was super inspired by just the work that you've been doing. It's been I've been seeing all the clips on Instagram and you're really going there, like with a lot of with your story, which we'll get into, and just all the people that are sharing and speaking out about their these horrible experiences that they've had, and I think that so many women and people have not just in the entertainment industry, but just in the wind

Well you just said it. You were like, you know, people just want to share. You'd be surprised of how much people want to share when she was talking about your grandmother. And that's what I found, is that people

Feel powerless and just and so for our audience, so that you guys know Lisa, she is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein. And you know, Jeffrey committed suicide in twenty nineteen, I think in suicide or whatever. Yeah, suicide is that is Do you not believe that he committed suicide?

You believe somebody killed him in prison?

Yeah, I mean that's what I believe. Yeah, sure, just what I think.

I mean, he probably had a lot of people's secrets on his oh right, right on his Yeah.

And there was the whole basis of Jeffrey was that he was recording everything on powerful people, so you knew everyone's secrets.

What a cynical little crazy fuck?

How did it all start? Like I because I think some people think like it's sexual assault is like one way. I know, it's very layered and it's nuanced. So how what was your journey into this, this situation with Jeffrey Epstein.

Well, I just think like nowadays, like people are learning about assault because everyone's talking about it on a podcasts or being educated more so. I mean we're talking about twenty years ago now, you know when this happened. So I didn't know anything about this type of abuse or even what to look out for. I was naive and just thought everyone was so I want to help you out. Of course they want to help me out, and I just didn't know. You know, when you're younger, who do you trust?

You can trust? Yeah? And then you meet like a wealthy, powerful man who's charming and nice and listens and thoughtful. And I think that's like a lot of the grooming that happens where it's confusing for people, where they're like, wait, did I participate in this? Like is it my fault? Like I think I was reading I was reading some stats on sexual assault and I was actually fucking astonished.

Oh yeah, you'll be shocked.

And I want to just read through some of this stuff for our audience before we get into this, because I had no idea some of these stats. One in five women and one in seventy one men will be raped at some point in their lives.

One in five compared to one in seventy WHOA, Yeah.

Eighty one percent of women and forty three percent of men report experiencing some sort of sexual harassment during their lifetime. And like we were talking about this, I was like, eighty one seems low. Yeah, Actually, I feel like ninety nine point nine percent of women, approximately one in three women and one in six men have experienced some sort

Well, most of them get away with it because they don't report it, and there's so much shame around it. First of all, you don't report it, and you have

Right, you have to almost like see it played out to understand that it's actually experienced that well.

I mean, I knew what happened to me, you know, in twenty twenty, sorry, in two thousand. I knew what happened to me. I was aware of it, but you have shame, you suppress it, you don't know who to talk to about it. And it wasn't until you know, women started speaking out about Jeffrey Epstein that I felt comfortablely be like, okay, what is second, that's what happened to me, and then wanting to reach out to them and talk about it and see where our stories kind

And the gay and they were in this in these stats that were saying that most assault happens between the ages of eighteen and thirty four, how old were you when eighteen thirty four? How old were you when you started when this started happening to you?

Twenty twenty one, twenty.

Twenty two, that twenty or twenty one years old? Yes, okay, And I was reading you know, when I was reading your your story about how you met him, which was I think you guys you were you had to shoot in the Virgin Islands and then a friend of yours invited you to his private island or something, or his island he was renting.

Yeah, well, that's so crazy about it because most people who were invited into Jeffrey Epstein's web were through Gallaine Maxwell, the underage girls in Florida, or you knew him or introduced through another friend. That's just the way he operated. And was like, oh, hey, your first friend, you know, I was a mentor of mine, Come meet him. But I was just on a photo shoot in the islands, right I was just minding my own business and a photo shoot. And the other young model was like, hey,

Out to a whole other, whole.

Different type of predator. So yeah, and we just took a boat over to his island and just thought I was just meeting like this wealthy guy who kind of just kept to himself and you know, played in the pool. But I observed some things when I was on the island that probably wasn't supposed to see, and he introduced me to someone who just had walked up, who later ended up being these young girls were saying this man had assaulted them.

You know, they said that during the at the island, they told you this.

Well, he's part of royalty in England, so you know, I just saw some things that had happened. And then later on when I when I got home, he relentlessly called me over and over and over, and I, in hindsight think that the reason why he did was because I saw things and he wanted to kind of keep me in his orbit.

To make sure you were good, Like good, did the girls that you the other girls that you saw there, or did they were like obviously young?

Were You're like, god, they look even younger than me.

Well, no, because I was young.

Yeah, so you're like, I'm so mature, And.

Do we ever do we ever say old? Are you elder? I just assume we're all young, right, So I just assumed they were around the same age as me. Yeah, I didn't know at the time, or even if I had asked them. Thember was a while ago. Maybe they said they were older. I don't know, but I didn't know they were or fifteen, six or seventeen at that time.

I mean, I think all girls are kind of like young. First of all, we're like we're groomed by society at just immediately, like we were literally groomed by society by like boys will be boys or you.

Know, older men.

You know, like there's just like an an an understanding that you just be quiet and you show up and

They want you to feel like chosen that everyone gets to come here, or if someone's handsy with you, it's because you're you're beautiful and that's normal and like, well.

That's a sense of power. Yeah, So anyone in the music industry, the modeling business, fashion, arts, entertainment, sports, whenever you have that power dynamic, especially when they're ten, fifteen, twenty years older than you, it's always this power dynamic. So you you are, as a woman, usually just kind of quiet. You kind of go along with things because you're scared to speak out, you know, or if someone touches you, you don't know how to react in that moment.

You were not trained on that smiling and keeping it cute because if we, like if we blew up, then you'd be causing a scene and that'd be crazy.

And then why are you dressed like that?

Why are you there?

Exactly? And they also play on your dreams, so a big one is okay, Like Jeffrey was like that with me, what do you want to do? Like what are you? What's your big dream? And you know, I had super big dreams and I was ambitious at that time, so they play on that ambition, right, and so he kind of used that, you know later on, but he was asking those questions in the beginning, and I thought, oh

You know.

When I was reading, I was reading an article that you I think it was on The Guardian where you'd shared your story about the girl that brought you to the island and how you know, she had made it very like this is normal, like she didn't like really explain anything to you, and how he invited you to to give him him a massage and she just was like, yeah, let's do it. And I know that in the article it shared that you shared that you obviously felt uncomfortable, but you went through with.

It because well, it's on the island, you are not island alone and all myself. Yeah, and I remember this man had kind of groomed me for the last two hours, right, I felt comfortable. It was amazing.

So this was like day one.

Yeah, well yeah, we went over to the island and we spent like the day there and this was at dinner. So at dinner for two hours and hanging out, he focused his attention on me, asking me tons of questions about myself and and I have kind of an interesting past because my father was in the Air Force, so I grew up half my life in Europe, so you know, I had lived in England. And at that moment, you know,

This princess I think I was reading recently, it's finally like come to light. It's Prince Andrew like that. He has a deep, dark past of this and it's finally being exposed. And I don't know if he's ever going to go to jail for it. Probably not.

But the girls don't want to speak out. The women now don't want to speak out, right because you get shamed, and you know it would probably scared too, And yeah, most people are scared. You don't want to go up against that type of power. But I mean that this power has been taken away because he's been shamed in many different ways since. So I started speaking out because I had a girlfriend after I came home from the island and stuff, who was told by Jeffrey to go

Not even your own stuff, No, like this this is more important, not my own thing.

For us that you know, it wasn't. And remember I was also so brainwashed after that to think that this was a good person.

So even after that experience, you felt like you had a good time there, even though like you had an uncomfortable time, have a good time. Oh maybe not a good time, but like it was in it was there was something that brought you back enough to there was a grooming had gotten had groomed enough for you to.

Say, well, well i'll explain what happened. Okay, it's interesting.

Yeah.

So yeah, So I was abused on that island that night with the girl in a kind of a threeesome situation where it was just a massage. Come in, you know, Jeffer's ready for his massage, and we did a massage. It was a real he did like massages, but that's how he kind of opened it up, you know, lures you in. It's just a massage, and then the massage can turn into assault. So that's what happened on the island. And then I went home disgusted and I hated this man, right,

And after that? What was your relationship with him after that? How was that? How did it did he feel? Did he make I'm just wondering because I think the abusers, they use and they yield their power in so many different ways. Some people will be like remember that thing I did for you, or they just keep giving you things to keep you coming in. Right.

Well, we have to differentiate between these types of master manipulators and abusers and the ones that just want to be who go up to girls and like, I can help you with your singing career, your podcast into all this stuff, and they haven't really, they don't have any way they're really going to do it, or even they may know people in the business, but they just really want one thing from you, right. I Mean, there's so

Right know?

You know, we all knew what you know Shawn Colmebs was doing back then, but with Jeffrey, it was more like on this higher level of powerful person, you know. So it was just it was just very different. And I'm a kid, like I mean.

Most of all, like I think people forget, like in your early even like you don't know shit and you think you know shit, and so all you know of the world is like this person is something like huge for me.

It's life changing.

And so there's an admiration and the love that like in a respect that you can never like there's no there's nobody else who could probably have done that for you, and so you're just leveraging that energy and thinking like

If you make a big noise, no one's going to like you.

So we're constantly questioning ourselves, Like damn was he being weird, that was kind of weird, that massage.

Was weird, but then he did this.

So then you're constantly going back and forth, Like I think we are bred in society that literally has planted seeds of us forgetting our intuition, yes, moving away from our bodies, moving away from the in like the natural indicators that something is going off and something is wrong. And so we're constantly trying to be liked and loved by people around us and not make a lot of noise and not like make a lot of trouble, and so things happen to it.

Grooming happens to us easier, and like even in school like.

Be quiet, raise your hand, Like there's all these like

No, that's what a lot of people will say to you, like why didn't you why'd you fall for it? Why didn't you get out? Why didn't you do this? Why don't you do that? But that's the thing, like even just like the power dynamic at school, the teacher, you know, high school and college, the teacher and student. They they're

And I guess there is a level of like uh like programming that even women are given to.

Leverage our sexual our sexual power, that that.

It means something that we then have some type of power over these older men, when in fact they know what the fuck they're doing, and you feel like, oh,

Fuck just happened? It can be that quick.

Yeah, like you're not even aware of it until probably months or years later.

I mean I think too, I mean in the industry that you're in, which is modeling. You're revered for your beauty, you revered for your body. You're yielding all of these physical qualities to book the job, to get them to buy the product, like all these things. And so then when you're actually when you're twenty years old, twenty one years old, I was like, you're still figuring out even though you've necessary, I guess, mastered in some capacity, how to yield your sexual your sexuality, I guess in a

It's funny you say that because a lot of users will say that you'll just go with the you know, a guy your age, and it like they use abusy, So why can't you be with me when I'm actually doing something for you. You're actually gonna get something out of it, right, And then.

You're like, well that's kind of true.

Ye You're like, yeah, I have slept with so and so from fucking the ninth grade and he's stupid. You know, there is and there's a level like you said, like of like oh he chose me, and that means I have something special and like I'm special because I'm with Even in movies, like if you look at even like media, like older rich men are depicted as something like to be like surprized.

Yeah, to be desired.

When did this abuse stop?

I went on for about three or four years?

Okay, and what was it?

Was it?

You that were just like finally stopped? Likely enough is enough? I'm not going to like, well.

I feel like I couldn't I couldn't never get away. You know, I just always felt like this person, like how am I supposed to just stop going to see him? Because I was also getting something out of in a way that he was like a mentor to me, and he was also this genius. So when I would go visit him, I always felt like, Wow, I just want

You know, then you feel like indebted, Yes exactly, but we got the tickets, go to the dinner, and now I'm like, fuck, Okay, I knew this was coming, and now I kind of have to do it.

Well, that's how it is with all abuse, because it's always a good and bad and every because it was all bad, you would never go back right right, But it's the good. They're always even abusive relationship is always the good husband for a while fifty percent of the time, maybe even up to seventy percent of the time, and then he beats you. Right, So it's like this always

Abuse, well because they know how to, they know how to like get you really really really high and make you feel really really good, and then they snatch it from you. And then you're always trying to scramble back to this person that you once knew and this this time, and you're.

Like, wait, well, where's that person?

And it's almost like you're in competition with yourself because you're like, if I can if I could have got this this version of him this time, then eventually this other, this version is going to come back out, and then you're constantly like what the fuck.

Yeah, And you're constantly going out and everyone's saying what an amazing person is. Everybody back then said that he was the most amazing person. I used to say it, right, so.

And then like on top of this, him you're in an industry where you're constantly fighting for your life and genuinely like and I can only imagine like photographers, and just like the constant like interference and boundary crossing that you're already dealing with on top of this assault.

And this like you know, so thinking it's normal.

So you're just like it's like I feel it everywhere.

You know, in older men and younger women. You see a lot in like parties and things like that.

Still, what like now that you're stepped away and you're out of that part of your life, when you're looking back on that in those times, like, do you see like the ways in which this assault was like affecting affecting you in different ways, like the way you showed up. I don't know if like you fell into any any habits or anything for coping. What were those ways? Oh?

For to suppress the memories, I would go out like I was like a socialite, a big social light back then. I would go to all the parties and the events, and you know, drink alcohol and I've used drugs, you know, and things like that, just to kind of suppress the memories, because it absolutely does work. I don't I don't advise you to do it that way, but it works in a way. I'm just like, oh, I've forgotten about.

It for so long.

Oh yeah, you have a bad episode, you know what I mean? And then you know, something horrible happens, and then you wanted to go out drinking and partying that night. Because also on the flip side of that, you feel worthless, right, and there's a lot of shame that comes with it, and in your mind like what am I doing? How do I get out of this? And then you can't talk to people, you can't say hey.

You know.

The crazy thing about that is is in the three and a half years that I knew him, it wasn't until my girlfriend came to me crying that said to me, you don't know who Jeffrey is, Like, you don't know who this man is?

Like what do you mean?

Because she has some different experiences and and she's just like, you know, he made me do something that was really awful. You know, he made her go into a room in his house and have sex with someone, and he made her do it. And after that she was like, who are you? Like, why would you make me do that?

So people know that they are being filmed.

I mean, we knew there were cameras in there, but probably not the men that are going in rare and probably didn't know because I mean, the girls are young girls, and if they're not under age, a younger girl, let's say twenty four and under, I would say that's about the age range. You know, they're not doing it for fun.

You know?

Said, I didn't understand it because that was getting so much darker.

Than what I thought it was. I thought it was just light. You know.

You think it's light because you see these things happen parties and you know lots of people who maybe flirt with somebody or maybe even have sex with them to you know, get a movie roll or get this or get that so that you know that kind of stuff happens. But when it's on a darker level where he's taking these women and introducing you to these older, powerful men who still the list has not come out.

Right do you think that list will ever come out?

All they did was release a list who showed up at his parties in that island. Who cares Oprah or whoever showed up doesn't mean they know anything that's going on right right right, So the list know the powerful men, the ones that I know and the ones that my friends know about, have never come out.

Because they're paying big bucks to make sure that shit never comes out because the video someone has these videos store never. People are getting paid off majorly not to release that shit.

Well, the most powerful and wealthiest people in America, so it's never going to come out.

So when that happened, that was when when your friend shared this with you. What did that do? What did that do to you?

Well, it just was like quite a second. Well first I was just like scared death. But I went to go see Jeffrey after that and kind of confronted him because I wanted to get out of like this whole web I was in with him. And after that, I mean, she told me I would think March or April, and I had left New York by May and moved to Los Angeles. It was two thousand and.

Four, and that was the biggest reason why.

Yeah, I lovet because of him with.

That conversation, like when he when you brought that to him.

Well, he just the one thing I've always remembered. He said, I like to have things on people.

I like to have things on people.

So it was just getting so dark.

And he meant that to you as well, like he was threatening you.

There's something that happened that day that I've never really talked about that went pretty dark. And after that I knew what kind of person he was. But years up until then, I was always saying, Deffrey's amazing, He's great.

You know.

My parents' house was not that far from his home that he owned owned in New Mexico. My parents lived in New Mexico at the time, and so you know, I would go to his house and like ride horses. He wasn't there, you know, he was like part of Like he would send gifts to my parents' house. In the little Black Book that came out, my parents' number was in it, you know, So like I knew him, and I always thought, like, Okay, I have things that

That was what also. But his lover, right, wasn't I supposedly.

I guess then back in the day and then she was in his circle of powerful people and helping to find I mean literally going to look for these underage mostly blonde or you know, white females.

Right, she's in jail forever, I'm hoping or what's coming?

Did she get sentenced she got sentenced, but probably not forever.

Wow.

To be the only woman, the only person that's gone to jail for everything that Jeffrey Epsen has done is a woman.

Interesting, that's crazy. It's interesting that she even like as a one. Like a lot of times abusers have women to help. Oh, that's like always it makes it makes it feel comfortable, safer. Yeah, but that's always like astonishing to me because what the fuck like that a woman would do that to another woman.

But I mean probably, yeah, I didn't care about these young girls. And she's from a royal family, or not a royal family, but a wealthy family in England with friends with Prince Andrew and all those people and stuff. So I think she just looked down on these young girls like there were nothing. I mean, I've ever heard that she said that about them. So it's this whole level of evil.

How do you feel, like, you know, reflecting back on the situation and then like thinking about just your childhood, was there anything that like is correlated in like any sort of experiences or the childhood of that could have contributed to you feeling powerless?

Well, I mean it's funny you say that, but the childhood I think the first seven years is it defines all of us for the rest of our lives.

Right.

So the childhood is funny thing because I would have never have said. I always said I had a great childhood. Traveled all around the world, you know, and went to great schools, and had supportive parents that you know, we're always there for me. My mom stayed at home, my dad worked, I had everything I wanted, popular are lots of friends. I always said I had a great childhood. But to answer question, I never had like a relationship with my parents that I felt loved and adored and

Me right here, giving you guidance, giving you support.

I did, and that's why. Also when he died, I still get emotional when he died. When I saw him the news that he died, I felt like part of me had died. So sick to say that because of who he is, but a part of but he was a part of my life for a few years that I looked up to and he was a mentor to me. So it was confusing, very right, So you feel kind

You know, I think people underestimate the fact that like a lot of times, your abuser is someone that you admire and love, and that it's usually generally very confusing. It doesn't matter like if something happens to you very young or like it's it's a lot of times in order to be groomed, you have to you have to grow an affinity for that person in order for them to be for you to be vulnerable enough.

To let it happen.

And I think people like particularly men or people who are looking from the outside and like, are not recognizing how deeply intricate those relationships actually are. Even to like childhood shit, when like you're you know, kids are molested, it's like you're you're also being aroused, so your body is responding in a way that it feels good because this is what your body does, and then.

That feels very confusing.

I think even for me, I was molested for a long time growing up, and it took me a long time to even consider it that because it was from someone who's close to me. It's a female, she's a little bit older than me. Like I thought, like, this is what kids do, very normal. I thought this was

Just literally checked out. And I was like, what the fuck is that?

Even in my own head, like that's weird that I could just check out, but recognizing like as a kid, I did that, and so our bodies, how our bodies deal with trauma in childhood. It's like if you cannot handle the big emotion, if you cannot process it, that's

And then in that.

Moment again, as I keep going, I'm like, bitch, you were raped.

It took all of those steps to acknowledge that I was a not having any empathy for this woman because it was someone that she had had, you know, voluntary

And it just it took.

A lot even for me to say the word rape because it's such a heavy word that women are mostly told not to say.

And also so like putting that putting that word on your abuse or feels like heavy, too heavy, because that you can't take it back.

You can't say that, yeah, that like it's like it's.

It's it's it's a weird thing for women.

It's a weird thing in general because if I then call you a rapist, then that's what you are, and then then I'm in it. Then I have then I'm a victim, and then I'm a victim and then I haven't done anything. And there's all these there's all these layers to abuse and how it starts and how it like and how it continues and how it plants its

I feel very confident.

So I thought, so I think you know, and so I have been put in situations as an adult like I never even said anything about this on the podcast. But when I went to school for TANTRA, a school that is supposed to be trauma informed, well, we learned

And I just didn't know what. I literally didn't do anything, and I didn't.

Know what else to do, and I didn't even like I The next day, I was so like other people saw other students, everyone noticed what was happening, except the people who were supposed.

To notice what was happening.

But I did that in front of everyone.

Yeah, and he did.

His wife was there what At one point, the owner of the school was there.

Apparently nobody noticed any of this behavior.

The next day, I called Orlando and I was like, Yo, this shit so and so happened. And I was like, I don't want to tell on him, and He's like, what the fuck are you talking about. I was like, I don't want him to get in trouble. I even said to one of the other students. She was like, let's go back there and tell the other teacher. I was like, I don't want to tell the white man. I don't want to tell the white man on the black man. And she was like, that's the only other

Protecting this black man for what?

And I just recognized, like in that moment, like I started to unravel and I was just like I literally even when I called I called the founder of the school. I was shaking and I had two students around me, like I'll support you while you do this call, and I'm like, still not really processing why am I shaking from something something so much deeper? And even when I called her, I said, please don't say anything. I don't want him to get in trouble.

You're protecting him.

I was like, I like literally reverted back into childhood.

I was like five years old, and I couldn't even understand it. Like someone who feels confident, someone who feels empowered, someone who I feel like I use my voice often. In this moment, like all that shit went out the window. I had just finished a two year course about fucking trauma and sexual shit, and I could not even understand while I was reacting this way.

I didn't even realize.

It was just something that immediately made me just say I don't want to do it. And it took like a lot to kind of start peeling back the layers of why I reacted this way, why I allowed it to happen, why I didn't just say, like, yo, what are you doing? Like I didn't say any of these things, and in fact, nobody did, even the wife who was over in the corner peeping shit, because she also froze

But it's it.

Has lingered and lingered and lingered and lingered because I didn't say anything. I had someone recently tell me, like I'm going to that school, and I was like, okay, you know, like should I say something? Is this going to discredit like all the education that I got. Is this going to like, you know, why didn't I do anything?

But I'm like, this is.

How deeply rooted this shit is because it doesn't like you can be confident, you can be empowered, you can have kids. All these things can happen, and you can still become a victim because in the moment.

You a lot of times revert. And we know, like women are not trained in this.

We're just now getting to a place where we can have these conversations and be like this happened to me and not feel like discarded, not feel worthless because of it, and also know like this shit had nothing to do with me, Like and it's and it's it's scary that shit scared me. And there's been times in my adulthood, like I said, these separate, you know, incidents where I'm like, what the fuck who am I? And it makes me realize there's something so much deeper, like that's like implanted

The first time you've talked about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is the first time I ever talked down on the air. And because I don't feel like, I don't feel like they did enough. I don't feel I feel like after I had conversations with the woman who owned the school and I was like, this has caused a lot of issues, and her response was this is good. It was time to you know, look at these things. Everyone should go to therapy. And that's crazy, you know

Me.

I couldn't even put into words like that. This felt eerily familiar. And just recognizing that, like by suppressing these feelings by not ha like even in girlfriend's situations, like has there been a time or someone's done something to you that you haven't acknowledged it is this is where h the healing happens. If we can't have the conversations, we will never address the thing. And the thing about Tantra is what I did learn is like that shit doesn't go anywhere.

It lives in your body. The body keeps the score.

So even if you think you've forgotten, if you keep sweeping shit under the carpet, bitch, it's going to come up. And you know, obviously in this chapter of my life, I've done a lot of work and I'm in a

But I'm just that makes you feel powerful still.

No, No, yeah, Like I'm like I'm a kept woman, Like I'm not like, of course I have whole tendencies. I'm a very sexual person. Like I like my sexual part. And I think that's another thing for women too, is like we are innately sexual, we give birth, we create, but it's been so demonized. So there's like this weird we don't we're not in connection with it, but we're being used for it, and so it's it's it's like a oppressive.

Energy inside of us.

It's like I want to be sexual and I feel I feel connected to my sensuality, but also I hate it.

There's so many women.

Who like completely suppress that part of them because it's like if I don't give attention to anyone, if I cover up, then maybe I'm no one's gonna see me, maybe I won't be hurt again.

But we all know that doesn't make a difference.

I mean it goes both ways. There's that there's that woman, and then there's the woman who's over using, using her sexual proudness for protection, yeah, for protection, to forget to feel powerful because she doesn't feel in control, but she feels like, oh, I can control these niggas right here, and they and I don't give a fuck about them. So I'm I'm somehow in control when really you're not. And I think, like, I like, it's just like such a it's just a cycle that will continue and continue.

Like I should I shouldn't take away the intention from something that's actually a really bad abuse.

Yeah, And and like yeah, and women historically we've done that. I've done that a lot in my life, not just even just like sexual assault, but just in life in general, downplaying the things that have deeply affected me because it wasn't it didn't feel substantial enough to the next person's story. And so I think it's so important for us to have these type of conversations so that we understand that, Okay, yes,

The healing journey? Here? For me, first acknowledging what happened, you know, the acknowledgment of what happened, and finding people that I could speak to that I trusted, where it felt like a safe place for me. So when I started speaking out, I mean I had best friends, friends, boyfriend and listen to me, family members that didn't want to support and so I had to go and look. Where I went was to other survivors, usually of the same abuser or just anyone who's survivors, which is why

Right.

But I mean, for so many years I just suppressed it and didn't think about it.

When those feelings come up, I'm thinking because for me, my memory is something that I'm always really insecure about, Like I feel so worried about when I'm getting old and I'm like, am I going to remember my life?

Now? That I would work for you? Because for me, I didn't have those memories either. You didn't know they can't they pressed them.

They literally came from that. Interesting.

Interesting, I have a question about ADMR.

I know it's like it has like like a lot of relation to like hypno, but I'm always confused about like are you are they like the therapist is like telling you to bring up the stories and repeat them back and like kind of go there so you can tell them in deep at detail. And then is there a part where there are you read telling this like after you say it a lot of times? Are you then retelling the story in a way that is something you can sit with?

Well, he doesn't, He doesn't ask me any questions. Okay, So I just come in every week because of the podcast. I do it twice a week to deal with the trauma that brings in problem right from my guests. But for me, I just talk about my day, what's been going on, or what's happened that week, and then from that trauma from the past is going to show up daily or weekly, monthly. So as you're talking about things in he'll say, Okay, tell me more about that. You'll

It's like it kind of creates the kind of root back to where it's rooted to.

Yeah, it's not the normal therapy where they're asking you questions or whatever. It's like they wait until your talk and he will sit there, minutes will go by until you start talking because it's all about you. And so yeah, so I would just so many things. I mean, I've been doing it for a year now and it's incredible because not only as you go through this healing process. I just I used to be like against therapy, like I don't need that because they used to do talk

Go alternative therapy is like a lot of times you need something more than just talking.

Because I needed it.

I needed something deeper.

Because we're trained to just talk in a way that suppresses what like you don't tell the truth, yeah, or you just dance around the same because I don't want to talk about that ship.

Exactly, you dance around it. And plus plus I alrea't even remember what happened about certain situations, right, But this this kind of memory, it's like he waits until you talk about Then it's like he knows exactly where to dig into, dig into a little bit, dig into a

You've made You've made a story about them, so you've made so they can exist there. And so it's like if I don't, if I don't want to, if I don't want to interrupt the story I've been telling myself exactly.

Then I just did. I just don't.

We're all telling the same story all the time. It's not always true we're telling so yeah, so it goes into those memories over and over and over again until I can finally start healing them, owning it, you know, and then pushing putting that in a safe place.

So bringing up like just weekly daily things, and then how do they relate to these deep suppressed memories, Because.

It could just be something you're talking about with your daughter, some advice you gave her. Where did that come from? Let's talk more about that.

That's so interesting because even yesterday and I was sharing with you what she told me about the girl at school liking girls, I to, you know, at first, I was like, you know, it's not a big deal. I was like, except if someone tries to make you do

But there's there's that's important to say.

We forget that on a regular, daily, weekly basis, there are probably things that come up that will trigger those memories briefly, but if you are so busy suppressing them and covering them, you're gonna you're gonna breeze right past them, hit.

The less instead of the right.

Yeah. And the thing about suppression about what you were saying. And I've said this before, and I truly believe this because I feel like me and Eric have both experienced this in this like peak of good moms, like experiencing all these new things together and like, you know, accomplishing

And crying is so important. Actually getting those tears outs when you kind of release is super important. You ever talk to people are like, I've never cried, Well that was me. I hadn't cried for like twenty years. Wow, and thought of like those kinds of things that would make me cry. And then after going through emdr By, I cry all the time. You guys, you guys, I'm always backed yeah, and I'm always like on this sensitive thing. I can feel when like I'm getting sensitive.

Because you're in touch with your body, guper.

In touch now, and then when you're super in touch with your body, then you can have those boundaries right when you're you know.

Right because you actually know what your body does doesn't want, and what it actually does want. I know you're a mother of three boys. How has this, like, I guess, honesty, this unearthing. Have you discussed it with them? Like, I mean I'm assuming you have because they're a little bit older.

Yeah, what was that conversation? Like from the start I always told them when I went to speak or was interviewed for a documentary. I would tell them what it was for. Well, like you said, they're older. So I have teenagers now, but at first they were under eight or something, I probably wouldn't have said something like that, but as they were getting older, I've always been that type of mom where I just want them to know. I don't like to sugarcoat anything, and I don't do

Wow, now I don't want to hear about it.

I don't want to hear about it. Like I see later on told me, oh, I thought he was like a playboy and maybe you have this like sugar daddy relationship Like no, well, and are nothing to do with it.

But are you listening to me?

Are you now?

You just drew a picture that you wanted to that you that was like for him, I guess so.

I mean, I realized in that moment the relationship that I have with him for those three years wasn't even a relationship. He never even asked me anything about myself ever, knew nothing about me, So why would he want to know something deeper about me?

Right?

Right?

It was a very relationship, shallow surfacy relationship when I realized I was probably just an object to him at that point, didn't really want to get to know me. And so when you start speaking out about these kind of things, like you said, when you open up a lot of you know, kind of who your real true friends are at them moment. Yeah, yeah, it's not it's not easy to speak out.

No, I think you're so incredibly brave, especially because of I guess the power that your abuser yields and the people that he's connected with, who are I'm sure quivering in their boots still in this moment and trying to see how much does this person know? Who did he tell? You? Know, there's a lot of you're mangering that I'm sure I don't know if you've experienced that that want to silence

Way, even just knowing consent and.

Consent, yes, the asking the consent piece is.

Always because a lot of times it's just by educating our kids you can change so many things that happened to women and young women. Just the consent part if a woman's clammed up like this, she's probably not into you. Maybe even if a woman needs to be touching you, into instigating, starting things, then she's into you. But if a woman's all clammed up like this, maybe you should stop. Yeah, she's uncomfortable. I just can't say so.

Yeah, and that consent isn't just the warble, no, yeah, really being able to Yeah, read the room, read body language, and get get your desires out of the fucking way, because I think that's what a lot of times what happens is like okay, but like I really want to do this right now, like she'll enjoy it once we get in there, you know, and it's just it's really unfortunate. So yeah, thank you. Do you have an affirmation that you can share with our audience.

Well, I do personal my personal affirmations. I don't know if it'll work for everybody, but for me, I like the sound of my name when I say affirmations because when someone says it to me, it does something for me because I grew up like not really hearing my name in a loving way. It was only like Lisa and Phillips, you know, when you're like you're in trouble, so I always say what I want to hear, what I want other people to say to me that don't right. And I'm proud of you, Lisa.

I'm proud of you, Lisa. I'm proud of you.

Yes, I'm proud of you. And also you're worthy of everything that you want. You're worthy of everything you want.

You're worth everything that you want me, and you're very powerful.

You're very powerful.

Yeah. So those are the three that I say I'm a most often to myself. Yeah, or even sometimes like under my breath, like so someone can't hear me and I'm walking through like home goods or something. But if you sometimes you catch yourself in a mirror, sometimes you just want to say that, remind yourself, you know, because it's throughout the day. It's not always just like in the morning in the mirror.

No, I like the name, like, I like personalizing it for you because sometimes you needs to not be general.

You need to know it's for you.

A lot of times when you personalize it, you get the motions come up.

It shift, it shifts the s energy.

You're not just saying a thing, You're saying it to you.

I like that, Yeah, me too. Well, before we get out of here. I would love if you pulled a card for Tarot time.

Oh boy, the Emperor, Emperor.

It already sounds good.

Yeah, he looks powerful. He looks like he's yielding his power for good, it seems the Emperor, and shout out to bitty terror. Not terror, it's a bitty terror. It's black owned tarot, female founded, Mama owned tarot brand. So make sure you check out what should I just call them mahogany. I call mahogany.

Shout out to Biddy who we always read the definition to mahogany is what I'm talking about.

Okay, okay.

The Emperor as the father figure of the Tarot deck. The Emperor suggests that you are adopting this fatherly role, regardless of whether you're male or female, providing for your family, protecting and defending your loved ones, or yourself. You may be the breadwinner or the rock for those who rely on your stability and security. Similarly, the Emperor represents a

Loyalty and respect you deserve.

Claim your authority as leader and influencer, and don't let others put you down. It reflects a system bound by rules and regulations. You create law and order by applying principles or guidelines to a specific situation. Create calm out of chaos by breaking down any problems into its parts and then mapping out the actions you need to take to resolve it. Be systematic, strategic, and highly organized in your approach, and stick to your plan until the end.

Wow.

I love that seeing everything out to the end is so important.

It says through the course of your life you have gained valuable wisdom and life experience, and now you enjoy offering guidance, advice and direction to someone who might benefit from it.

I do.

Maybe a teacher, coach, boss, or a good friend who likes to take what you have learned and pass it on to others so they can be wise and as powerful as you.

Wow, I love that I picked a good card and I had been the breadwinner for my kids. I've raised my kids all by myself.

It picked you, baby boys.

Yeah, no, that's not easy.

Yeah, for real And honestly, like I want to say to you, like, yes, I'm in awe of the work that you've done, and like the pivot that you've taken and that you said, shit's going to shift and I'm going to say what I need to say and taking your power back.

And also just like I think this.

I've been saying this for a while, but I really genuinely believe like this is the resurrection of the feminine of the women. I think there is like a power that we're getting back right now universally, and I think that it's time.

It's time.

I think a lot of us have suffered at the hands of the patriarchy, and I think we're all like getting our voice back and like getting on our feet. And like I think the men that have thrived and you know from the abuse of women, it's over or free bitches. Ooh, I like that, and I think like

Yeah, stop sharing.

Yeah. And I want to say to you, Mila, I'm really proud of you for sharing this your testimony and your story because I know this is something that you've been kind of suffering and silent, not kind of you've been suffering with for a while now. And so I'm really proud of you for feeling brave enough to share share that.

Thank you.

So I love you. Thank you. I love you too. Yeah.

How do you feel after sharing that?

I feel good. I feel like it's just the beginning. Like I have to, like, you know, like work through all the things. And I'm still working through it, you know. I and I you know, I just I want everyone else listening to know that this kind of shit takes time, and it's not like an overnight it's two years. Yeah, years, Like it's it's a commitment to shift, and it's a commitment to doing things differently. And if you've done things a certain way, it's going to take time to uncover

Right, really good, Yes, Lisa works.

Can our audience find you?

Let's see here. So I'm on Instagram. I am Lisa Phillips. Also, my podcast from No One is on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple.

Okay, yeah, make sure you go tap into Lisa's podcast and yeah, just I think it's such an important space. If you created, like I said, so, thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing. You guys know where to find us, or if you don't, make sure you go follow us on Instagram at Good Mom's Underscore Bad Choices. Make sure that you tap into our retreats. We have the Good Vibe Retreat coming up the summer. We have a couple's retreat in June. We have two

You get this shit for free.

That's pay in subscriptions and comments, and even if you hate it, say that shit. But just whatever you do before you fucking hang up this phone after we've given you two hours of our life, subscribe, hit a comment and thank you.

Appreciate it, and make sure you check out our merch our. I don't even like calling emrch It's our clothing line designs on our website. Good Momsbad Choices dot com. If you're not a patron yet, what are you doing? Join Patreon.

And find a friend, find a friend in the discord in your city. If you want your erk to your Amila, go on Patreon. I mean, go on Patreon to get in discord and find people in your city, because I know moms get lonely, and you know women get lonely. And we have a really beautiful I feel like a tribe of come as you are. It's a judgment free zone whoever you are. It's like a place, a safe space to be who you are and you find a friend who's going to accept you as is. That's one

So come in like vent and find a friend.

Yes, it's ten dollars a month and it's worth every fucking penny. So Patreon dot com slash good mom's bad choices, and we see this week good hey pleasing?

Yeah, I'm living so good.

Can't you tell?

I went through a drought, that's until I found a well maym have been known Earth? I used to be broken tail, now got the blues dancing might Beyonce Jasell throat shot or popping his cow wearing our voices. Patriarchy kept it in the box. To what'spois? Women put the pee and powers, so what's pointless?

They want me to be good?

So I made bad choices.

Bad mom, not a bad mom, but a bad mom. Gitter's in, put cannabis in their bath, bon walk in bosses cap and I blew his.

Cat balls hot dog. Now I'm immune to the cat called Herbie.

And no waisted straight to win like a dollar sign. Mother, rent the lover when so Woden's like a water someone where you're rent the winter resentual will win the summer time I do it.

Oh, they know one that needs to run it by