Yo. I am so excited that we're speaking at Podcast Movement for the third time, but this time it's Podcast Evolutions in our city, Las Angeles.
And not only are we speaking at the conference, but we are teaming up with Spreaker, our podcasting network, to put on a very special mixer for female podcasters.
The podcast industry is.
So male dominated and we wanted to do something a little bit special for the female podcasters.
That's right. The goal of our mixer is to empower and connect you with other inspiring women in podcasting. So whether you are starting a podcast, whether you already have a podcast, this is the perfect place to mingle and meet people in your industry. We're going to have drinks and we're gonna be kicking it answering all your questions. This is the time to get all that free info, girl, So make sure you click the link in our bio to our SVP for the event our March twenty third.
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MOMAF is real, raw, hilarious, and it's relatable. And you know, at Good Moms we love a real transparent story. Christine Michelle Carter is not only transparent, but she's inspiring in this book. I've read it over and over again. I love it and I suggest you read it too. It's for moms who are going through divorce, it's for moms who are struggling. It's for moms just need a good read. This is a great read and we highly recommend it.
So make sure you check out mom AF today by visiting Christinemichelle Carter dot com backslash mom dash AF. I'm going to leave everything here in the episode description. Make sure you check out MOMY.
Welcome back to Good Mom's Bad Choices.
I'm Erica and I'm Nila and Happy.
Wednesday, Happy hump Day, my love. How are you?
I'm great? How are you?
I'm good as tired, but I'm happy and you know, podcasting brings me joy.
I just realized that the music is on. Sorry, I'm gonna turn it.
Off with smooth jazz. Yeah, I feel like it's such a fucking adult. I'm like, I'm not.
It's not smooth jazz. It's low fi cafe.
It's smooth jazz.
It's smooth jazz for our generation.
It's low Every time I'm in my house cleaning, I'm like, oh my god, I'm such an adult listening to smooth jazz.
It does feel very mature, doesn't it. I've got it. Actually, you know, this week, I am feeling very mature, feeling very like adult.
Like like we have Is that what we were in those glasses?
Yes?
See, like like these classes, this is my adult. Look. We had a call with our bookkeeper.
We have a bookkeeper, my accountant, So I have to call you back of a called maccnton.
We filed our taxes on time.
Someone filed them for us. That's the only reason they're on time, for.
Someone who went through all of our finances and told us that we're doing good. We're bitch, we're doing a good job.
Bitch, we're doing a good job.
This is the most adult I've felt in my whole thirty three years of existence. I've been like having to pinch myself and tell myself, you're an adult. You're doing it, You're doing a good job. Your mom. I'm like, every time I forget, I'm like, I can't believe it. I was just a teenager yesterday.
I know me too. So yeah, I'm feeling I'm stepping into my adult bag this week. We're going to New York this week. I'm bringing my kid and I'm going to do it mature mom things and business things. I'm bringing my kid on the work trip.
We're going to meetings.
Erica today was like, I wish we just had more meetings to go to. I'm like, who are we meeting? You're like, I don't know, like meetings at New York.
I was like, we'll make them happen, make them meeting.
No wonder, you're feeling adult like, that's why, because you want to have meetings.
We're gonna get those meetings. But right now, I'm gonna the last thing we do with those glasses. We're like, gu's why we got a meeting. Can't wait? She's like, yeah, maybe MTV. This is literally what she said. I'm like, do you know some what over there? No?
Nope, nope, I'm just gonna put it out there.
MTV were coming for our meetings.
I don't know what for what, but we're gonna be there.
You know.
I think I've been watching Kanye West's documentary and it's been throwing me back to like EMPTYV two thousands, Yeah, because he was like breaking news Empty Remember Breaking News MTV?
Yeah, TRL or whatever.
It just like had like the like those like lights and it was like the solar system and then it's like being behind the person and it's like Kanye West producer just got in a car accident. I was like, oh my god, I remember that.
Wow, my god. I didn't watch it just for that, just for the fucking just throwback.
It's a throwback. It makes me feel old. Actually, I'm like, WHOA was this that long ago? It doesn't feel like it, but it was the wire.
It was a while ago when he was like normal and cool and made regular music and it wasn't fucking stressful.
I love him, I do love him.
I just prefer his music from before before Black Skinhead, when I was like.
I still like his music. I don't like his opinions all the time, but I still like his music.
I like some of it.
I think he's just ridiculous, but I love him.
My baby daddy has made me like grow did not like Kanye because he just loves him so much. It was overkill for so many years of my life that it's not you, Kanye, it's my baby daddy.
So it did make me sad for him though, because he was he was He was so like, he really needs his mom. We all need our mom now, he specifically really needs Donda.
You called me, You text me that.
I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Erica text me out of nowhere? Kanye needs Donda.
I was like, who, what the fuck are you talking about?
He does? Watch it.
I'm telling you.
If you've watched it, you know what the fuck I'm talking about.
I'm gonna watch it.
I you know what.
I was just thinking.
Someone was like, yeah, his friend was just like following him with a camera for ever, and I was like, our vlog is going to make it the are you Hollywood East?
One day someone will see these blogs. One day someone's gonna see all these videos on my phone.
I swear to god, Conye did it. We could do it too. These videos are going to get publicated one day.
Yeah, But anyway, Hello, Hi, Hi, we have a special guest. You guys, if you might have heard her giggling in the background, was.
I not supposed to get No?
No, no, no, it's fine.
Let us rant for that long about nothing.
We have special guests. We have Ebon Whitney here, a sexuality duless sex educator author. I've been like following you for a very long time. Oh yeah, so strange, kind of creepy, right, that's cool. So I know you.
You don't know what I know you, but I do.
I've been like watching your whole journey.
Wait, how long have you been following me? Do you know?
Probably like six years?
Oh dangs, you've been through the journey.
Oh g she did put me on. She said, you know this woman. I was like, no, but I like it. I'm going to stay here.
Yeah. Maybe it wasn't like sick. Maybe it was like right around we started our podcast. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, you were doing like some workshops downtown or something.
Oh yeah, we tried to link up with you. It was like a vagina workshop. I was like, I want to go to that vagina.
Workshold out because you're booked and busy.
And oh yeah, and I was like, are they actually talking to the vaginas in a circle with each other? I had a lot of questions. Now it's all coming back. Were the women pantyleists?
I need to know? I need I wanted to go just to see what was going on over there? Were they?
No?
Okay, yeah I figured that.
Yeah, but just get weird when everyone's pussy is out.
I mean, I would love to do a workshop like that sometime.
I'm sure those workshops exist.
I'll come, I volunteer. Yeah, I'll definitely come.
To Okay, good to know, sign out.
Well, thank you for joining us.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So this month's theme is mindfulness, and I feel like, I mean, before we get into it, I just want to say, with the famous it's mindfulness. Hello, Hi guys, you guys been listening. You know, it's mindfulness. I feel like you're a perfect guest for this because you talk so much about you know, your sensuality, and like in your journey, I've watched you really choose yourself a lot, and I think that that's so powerful and such a
journey and difficult for women oftentimes. But before we get into that.
I have a lot of questions. I'm so inqusitive, like I've been waiting for you to get here for a long time.
Hey, well I'm happier here.
I'm excited to bring on the questions.
Well, I first, do you want to start with? Do you have an affirmation for our guests today?
Yeah, audience, I mean the first the first thing that popped into my mind is I am at peace with my sexuality.
I am at peace with my sexuality.
I like that.
Yeah, That's something that I've said to myself throughout my journey, so I want to offer it to other people.
Do you feel like you've that's changed a lot throughout this period, Like you've gone from this to this, Like your sexuality journey I'm sure has evolved as you've evolved.
We've been doing some reading and research on you. But can you tell our listeners how you started in this space and like what this journey has and how you've come about, because I don't think women have really given themselves the opportunity to explore the sensuality and sexuality and you really have, So like, how did this speakin?
Yeah? I got started as a sex educator from a place of just like wanting to figure my sexuality out, like I wasn't thinking to myself, I'm going to be a sex educator. It was more like, why am I not having amazing sex? Why does sex still trigger me? And why do I still have sexual shame even though I'm in a loving relationship and there's really no reason
for me to be experiencing those things. And at the time, this was like eleven years ago, there wasn't really a lot of information out there that really resonated with me. It was more like, if you have sexual shame, just fuck some more, and like that'll teach your body to not have sexual shame anymore by doing the opposite. And
maybe for some people that works. It did not work for me, and I felt really frustrated that there weren't different approaches of like really down to the bottom of where that sexual shame comes from, what that sexual trauma could be, how to heal from that. And so I started just like working on myself and figuring it out, like carving out my own path to sexual healing, and
I was doing it very publicly. I had a blog at the time where I was talking very publicly about all the things that I was trying and struggling with and just being very honest about my journey, and people took notice they were reading and were like, holy shit, you are speaking my story, which I didn't think. So I thought I was literally the only one that was
having these sexual issues. And yeah, from there, just one thing that I say about this work is that I feel like it chose me, that I didn't choose it because I was just doing my thing, trying to figure my shit out. And I think other people found such a resonance with my story and really trusted that I could guide them into their own sexual liberation journeys because they were watching me do the very same alongside them. So yeah, I've been doing this work in so many ways since twenty eleven.
So yeah, it's beautiful.
I think I think a lot of women don't even recognize, Like did you come is your family religious? Did you grow up in like a religious background?
Yes, so I grew up in purity culture. I couldn't really tell you this sort of denomination of Christianity we were. I would say, like it's a mix of like Evangelical, Baptist and Protestant. But I signed a purity contract when I was eight, so like that kind of gives you, yes, But it's.
A purity contract for where I don't know. Okay, So a purity contract I'm them.
Okay.
So I wonder if people still do these, because back in the day they were all the rage. But a purity contract is a contract that you sign in your church that basically says you will not have sex until you are married, and your parents co sign it, your pastor you know, youth teacher whatever signs it, and yeah, that's what appears at eight.
Do they even explain what sex is before that?
No, it was like you're going to be pure and then yeah.
I mean I think at the time I had sort of a faint idea of what sex was, but not really. I was like, Okay, everyone else is doing this, and apparently this is what I need to do in order for Jesus to love me and my parents to love me, so I'll do it.
So that's so interesting. Our daughters are seven and like eight is approaching anytime, like very soon, and to think about like our daughters at this age signing a contract.
About their bodies, it's about their sexual.
It's weird, right, It's really weird.
It makes me wonder who thought of this concept.
Probably a man.
Yeah, absolutely.
Why are you even thinking of that?
Yeah, probably a man.
And who birth is? And then who was like that's a great idea.
Yeah. Yeah. So by the way, that contract did not stick. I had sex for the first time when I was fifteen. But the roots of that, like the oppression of that has, you know, stuck with me because how could it not, you know.
When you finally did have sex, not finally when you had sex.
I mean finally is fine?
Sure when you did have sex, did you feel guilt because of the contract that you had signed?
Oh?
Fuck?
Yeah, I mean so this is it's such a complicated story. The first time that I had sex was actually the first time that I had sex with someone who I now know to be an abuser for me. So on the one hand, there was a lot of choice because I was like, I am fifteen, I am grown. I know my shit, this is what I want to do. We're going to get married someday. Like it was kind of along those lines. But then there was this other aspect of me of like I think there was some
coercion involved. And I also because I didn't receive comprehensive sex education, it was more like abstinence only. Do not have sex. I didn't understand or wasn't taught about what a healthy sexual relationship looks like. So for me, hearing all these messages, you know, in my church and for my parents about sex's love, sex is love, sex is for marriage, I thought that if you are in love with someone, you have sex with them and that's it.
Like there wasn't anything in there about consent or bodily autonomy or the pleasure of sex. It was just like sex is love, sex is for marriage, et cetera. So when I had sex, I thought I was coming from it from an informed place, but looking back now, I had no idea what the fuck I was doing. And that relationship was both liberating in the sense that I chose sort of to have sex, but also it was a violation because the power dynamic within that relationship was
just not healthy. So it's it's very complicated, I mean, and I think it's that's a very important topic to touch on. Like as we're talking about kids and adolescents and sex and choice, I think that there isn't enough emphasis on for young women, Like I think we have this very rigid idea of like rape, you know, and even for us, it feels like if you use that word, it better be violent, it better be a stranger jumping out and.
You and you better not use it lightly.
And the reality of the matter is is like we've like we're women, first of all, we've been violated and like a lot even like hearing you discuss this is me thinking of my childhood and my sexuality and like just fucking because that's what people were doing and like I thought you were supposed to do and I wanted to, but like the coheresion, like the coherent coheresion coercion that takes place and you're not even acknowledging it as such, is such like so much to dig yourself out of
an adulthood. I've been violated so many times in my life and just massage to do things I didn't want to do, and it's very rapey and like I was for a long time. I would never say those words because it's felt too intense, you know, like I wouldn't put that on that person because then they're a rapists. But like, yeah, we need to call a spade a spade, and like those are the conversations we should be having with our kids.
Yeah, because that shit is real yeah, I really resonate with that. It wasn't until I was I think I was nineteen eighteen or nineteen when, funnily enough, I was talking to a guy that I was seeing at the time, and I was talking to him about my previous relationship that was just abusive, but I didn't think so. I
was just like, that's what everyone does. And I was talking to him a little bit about some of the things that I was experiencing, and he was actually the one that was like, uh, what you just described as rape? And I was like, no, it wasn't because I said yes, and he's like, no, that sounds like rape. And that sent me spiraling because I was like, oh shit. This whole time, I thought that this was a loving relationship. We were together for three years. I thought that he
loved me and I loved him. What the fuck does that mean? But yeah, I agree with you. I think we need to expand our understandings of what sexual trauma and sexual violation can look like, because I think a lot of folks are walking around traumatized within their sexualities and they don't even know it because they've been like, oh, no, that was normal sexual behavior. But it's like no, that that person was actually violating your boundaries and your autonomy, you know.
And I think it like when that happens and women, first of all, like even if you don't grow up in a very religious background or you didn't have to sign a purity contract, there's still like a lot of confusion about our bodies and what we're supposed to do or what's acceptable, and like there's a lot of mixed
messaging for young girls, and like it's confusing. You don't and it's hard to weed out your own thoughts about things versus what your friends are telling you in high school and shit, what you think you're supposed to do. You think you're in love, you think you're gonna get married to this person you're not going to see after fucking twelfth grade.
But like, well especially now, I think even too with like social media, Like it's just so everything is so hyper sexualized too, that you get so confused about what you're where you're supposed to be at at your age,
you know, and there is so much shame. I mean even thinking about I always think about like my period, Like when I first started my period and how they're really it was just like now you can get pregnant, and I was like, what the fuck, Like we haven't even talked about sex yet, which you mean like I can get pregnant, like you know, and I'm curious to know, Like after So, how now that you're in this space, your relationship with your parents so like do they accept
like what you do? Do they understand what you do? Have you had these conversations about your past with them? Now I have?
So I don't really have a relationship with my dad. That is by choice my mom and what I will say about my dad before I get into the relationship with my mom. My mom at first was very much against what I was doing. Both my parents actually were are they still married? No, okay, my parents separated and divorced like fifteen years ago. And yeah, so my dad he believes that what I am doing is absolute like sinful, like I am leading people astray down into the pits
of hell. Like that's how he views the work that I do, which is really unfortunate because you know that's I mean, I don't know. I was about to say, that's not what I'm doing, but it's like, well, if I am leading people to hell, like join the party. My mom on the other hand, my mom was very much along those lines. She was like, I don't like this. Both of my parents are very Christian. My mom is married to a pastor right now, so she was just like, you know, the sex is not something you talk about.
It's something that's private and Funnily enough, the more that I've gotten into this work, I actually interviewed her on my podcast a few years ago, and that was really interesting. I wanted to interview her because I was really interested to know what she grew up thinking sex was like, what her parents taught her, what her sexual relationship was like when she met my dad and she as a teenager, and all those things, and so this conversation was meant to just be very like chill and light and it
was funny. And it was chill, light and funny. But she dropped some gems in that episode, and I mean, I'm happy to share them here because it's public, but like, basically she eluded, insinuated that her first time of having sex was a rape, and I didn't know that. Another thing that she told me, which was when I first had sex, I was fucking really really negligently because like, no one told me. It's important to use a condom.
I had a pregnancy scare when I was like sixteen, and I told my mom because I was freaking out. I was late for like I think two and a half weeks. I was like, please don't tell my dad, Please don't tell my dad, like I promise I'll never have sex again. And somehow she did she told my dad. My dad was so furious with me. He didn't speak to me for two weeks because I think he felt that I was just a dirty, impure human being. And I remember one of the things he said to me
was like, I can't believe you didn't wait. Your mother waited, And that always stuck with me. That was sort of like the lore in our family, like your mother was a virgin, I was not. My father was not. Like he had a rolodex of all the women that he had had slept with, Like seriously, we saw it, like he showed us photos and everything.
It was like, it was weird.
How how does he justify?
How does it just if I was saying that to you? And also also, these are my women before your mother.
I don't know the cognitive dissonance of it all. So that was sort of the story, like your mother, like, I was such a bad boy, but your mom she was so pure and she was so sweet, and she waited until we were married. So when we're having this conversation on my podcast, she basically dropped and said that no, she wasn't a virgin when she got married and that, like, I mean, you could even hear it in the episode.
I was like, wait, what you've been just going wrong with this life?
Yeah, y'all been shaming me for having sex when you did the very same thing. The fuck. I was so mad, But also I just felt really ho that my mom would feel comfortable to share that with me, even though it took a long time and like I had a lot of trauma around that, I was really happy that she told me that story. And since then she was like, when am I gonna come on your podcast? I want to talk about sex more.
Yeah. So she's actually been.
On I think two more times or one more time. After that, we played like a twenty one questions where I asked like all these goofy questions like what was the funniest time that you had sex or whatever. So my mom is she's come around a lot. I think she really realizes that the work that I do isn't gratuitous. I think in the beginning she thought that I was just sharing about my sex life as a way to share about my.
Sex life attention.
Yeah, and so now she sees and I think, because like I have a podcast and I'm an author now and like I've been doing this for a long time, I'm speaking in colleges. I think the respectability of it all. She's like, oh, Okay, what you're doing is good. It's not just pornographic, which for her, I think that's what she thought. I'm so yeah, but yeah, my parents took a long time. My dad is still very much like when I google you, it's very disappointing.
And I'm like, why are you googling me?
But like the things that come up around me when you like it's it's good stuff, it's not. And even if it wasn't, who cares, right, So you're still right?
Yeah.
So anyway, Yeah, as a mom, I think that's it's really beautiful to see that that she's been able to kind of give you that. I mean, it sounds like over time she'll be more and more open and that she really does want to have those conversations with you and then maybe she was. I mean, I don't know your daddy, and I don't want to judge them, but like sounds like maybe she was a little held captive.
Yeah no, and that's that's a fair that's a fair thing to say.
I'm just saying like she was held captive to this idea that she had to portray this image that he bestowed upon her, essentially that you were this good girl, and you were this, and you were that, and you were a virgin, and she was just like, okay.
Right, that's what. Yeah, my mom was raised in like a Kojak church, so like they were Kojak Church of God in Christ, I think is what it's basic. It's like, And people are going to like bash me for this because I don't one hundred percent know. I just know that it's like something that's really popular amongst black folks in the black community. It's a very strict baptist Ish type of denomination. Like she wasn't allowed to dance, like why yeah, Like she wasn't allowed to wear dresses that
were like above the knee. So she she was raised in a very very strict home. And I think that is why I kind of got those teachings, even though I don't feel like my mom at the time was when she was raising me, was really in the Kojik church. But I think, you know, that's what her mom taught
her about sex and bodies. And that was actually something that came through in the podcast episode because I for a long time held so much resentment of my mom to be like why, like you knew this and you saw me struggling, Like why didn't you speak up and say I've been there, and like you're not alone and it's okay, and like don't be out here fucking reckless, like use condoms or whatever, Like you could have used
that opportunity. And I realized that she just didn't know how because she didn't see anyone else model that for her.
So and what a beautiful like that her daughter is kind of leading that way for her.
Yeah, I feel like in a lot of ways, I've helped you sexually liberate my mom. Whether she would admit that or not, I think that I have.
Absolutely, absolutely, because I think for a lot of us, it's important that we asked those questions. What was your relationship with sex in your childhood? What conversations did your mom have with you because nine times out of ten, there weren't many, and that we I think that's our whole thing too, is like sometimes we adopt ideas without really choosing them. We just are inheriting the and the ideas and then putting them on our kids and perpetuating
that same cycle without questioning it. And I think, like that's the most important, you know, right now. It's like even for us, people you know, could scroll past our shit and be like all these these moms are talking
about sex and smoking weed and make assumptions. But it's like I encourage everyone to dig deeper into our relationship, like your relationship with certain things and the why, you know, like there's a lot most of the time you didn't choose that, you know, And like it's really important as we raise girls in this time that that we're not doing the same thing our parents did do us because same like my mom found birth control in my bed and I was like, all hell broke loose and I
got I did get pregnant in high school and the school called and said I wasn't there and it was fucking traumatic, and my dad didn't talk to me for like two and a half weeks.
In the house, and.
I was just like, I'm a horrible little slut, you know, And it's just like how much of that did I hold onto? And then like I feel like some people have shames, sexual shame or sexual trauma and they disassociate during sex and they like completely stay away from it, or they become hyper sexual or both, because I did both.
I was hyper sexual and disassociating during sex and then like knowing something was wrong but not really and feeling like, oh, I'm liberated, you know, like I can do whatever I want, so I'm fucking But in reality, I was being coherced by like older men and just things that I really probably wouldn't have chosen had I been more clear about what it is I actually wanted and if I was actually having sex for my pleasure and taught that that
was a priority and that was even important. So I just think it's like, kudos to you for healing that part of like the women and your family, and like, yeah.
I think about my ancestors a lot with this work, Like I can't help but think about my grandmothers and their mothers and the things that they learned about their bodies. Also the ancestors that I had that did not have bodily autonomy and could not choose to have sex in a pleasurable way. You know, so a lot of this work for me is about honoring them and also bringing healing to the folks that came before me. Yeah.
Absolutely, I know, like a part of your journey you discuss like just sexual abuse that you've experienced, and like I said, as women, I feel like most of all women have been violated. Yeah, to be a woman is right, this is my this is my number one quote. And I know you've used like your work to heal that. And what ways have you used sensuality to heal trauma?
Because I think for some people, when something happens to them and that is taken away from them, they completely disassociate with sensuality with sexuality and they're like I'm good, yeah, instead of but you've used it as a tool, and like, in what ways has that helped you?
Yeah, I'm glad that you asked that question. When I first got started with my journey of sexual healing, I was kind of having those same experiences that you were naming, like being like, Okay, I'm an adult, now I get to have all the sex that I want and I get to be free. But it wasn't connected to anything, Like I wasn't connected to my body. I wasn't even connected to actual pleasure or my real desires. I was almost like going through the motions of of what folks
told me that my sex life should look like. And I think, honestly, that did a lot more damage because I was overwriting my body, Like my body was being like, slow down, we don't want to have sex, like it's triggering for us, and I'm like, but I'm a fucking adult, Like I'm with my husband, let's fucking do that. Like it's that's not healthy, you know. And so I actually kind of took a step back from sex and started to focus only on sensuality, which I know a lot
of people tend to mix those things. They use those words interchangeably. But sensuality is very different from sexuality. It has its own meaning and its own experience, and sensuality for me means just being in your body and being of the body, and especially feeling into your body and the pleasure that it can experience both inside and outside of the bedroom. So sensuality for me was a lot more accessible because I'm like Okay, sex, I can put that on the back burner, But can I be in
my own body? Like, what is it like for me to really inhabit my body? What is it like for me to listen to the messages of my body? And I think that's what sexual trauma steals from us. It steals from us our ability to connect to our body because we've been taught through that trauma that our bodies aren't safe to inhabit. I also think that sexual trauma takes away our ability to trust the voice of our body.
So sensuality for me has been a really important piece in connecting back to my sexual self, because I mean, it all starts with the body. You know, Like we're not having sex with anything else, We're having sex with our bodies. And a lot of us are having sex thinking that we're totally present, but we're not, like we're all the way up here, or we're like in another room, or you know, we're doing something in our heads, math
or thinking about you know, shopping lists or whatever. And yeah, I mean, I think that we need to be more aware of the things that take us out of our bodies and also pay attention when our bodies are like yeah, we're not here. Maybe that means we should slow down or stop or try something different. What does that look like?
You know?
And then even when you do get those signals and you know that then speaking on it, because that's a whole different thing, feeling empowered enough to be like, actually I don't want to do this.
This is so layered, and like I just feel it on my spirit to say, like this is really really hard to do. Like it's very easy for me to talk about it, like, oh, yeah, just listen to your body. Your body says stop. But like if you don't have a connection to your body at all, and if you've been taught that your voice doesn't matter, that whether you say no or yes, it doesn't matter. It's going to
happen to you anyway. If you have been raised into culture like I think a lot of us have, that makes sex appear to be so serious and also so superficial at the same time. Like there's a lot of confusing messages. So like I just want to pause and say, like, this takes fucking work, and it takes years to get to this space, but it really just starts by like creating practices that where you can listen to your body, maybe not in the sexual realm, Like that might be
a little too much. Maybe that looks like creating practices where you are paying attention to your body during the day, you know, or you were carving out time where you are exploring what pleasure or feeling good in your body feels like outside of sex. I think a lot of us only designate pleasure in the bedroom, like we allow ourselves to feel like, oh, this is where I'm allowed to experience pleasure, ask for what I want or whatever. But we are allowed to explore and express our pleasure
in a platonic way as well. So beginning that relationship I think is really important. Those are like really good first steps to getting to that point where you can, in the middle of sex be like, ah, yeah, I'm paying attention to my body. My heart's racing a little bit. I now understand, like what it feels like when I'm dissociating, I am not in my body. Let's pause and slow down, Like it's taken ten fucking years time.
I was going to say that in itself is very very difficult for women, me included, to especially once you've agreed that okay, having sex, like we're gonna do this, We're doing it, I'm into it. To then stop the process and say, you know what, body's saying something else
like that. There's as women, we have so much we resist saying no or stepping away because we feel like we've already agreed to something obligated, and it's like, oh, well, he's gonna think I'm crazy, or he's the thing, I'm overly emotional, or he's gonna think like there's something wrong with me, or there's something wrong with him. I don't
want to make him feel bad, you know. I would say that I don't know like the all the steps, but I feel like that's like step ten because like I feel like that is really really difficult for women, meaning like I said me.
Included, Yeah, I mean it is difficult. I want to affirm that it's really fucking hard. It's especially hard when you're in a relationship with someone who if you were to say no and be like, hey, I know that we were just like getting it on and I'm but let's not like and that person would be like the fuck.
Like that makes it difficult too, you know. So I think it starts first and foremost by like picking a partner that under stands the nuances of your sexuality and like the ways that you're it's not even about like your sexuality, but can see like your humanity, Like it's okay for you to stop if you don't want to do something, it's okay for the consent to change. Like if you said yes and now it's a no, that's okay. And hopefully you'll pick partners that are just like I'll
go with the flow. We can do something else, we can find different ways to be intimate. This will put a pin in this and get to it tomorrow or whatever. A lot of people, a lot of men, aren't capable
of doing that, you know. So it's important to pick partners that are able to give you grace and space as you are on this sexual healing journey, so that when you have these moments where you need to pause, or when you're getting triggered or something like that, that they can be able to hold you in that not judge you or blame you for that, and also like take care of you.
You know, I know that you've been married for fourteen years and it sounds like you picked a great, excellent partner.
Yeah, I don't know how how I did that, and I was.
Gonna say, like, did you know like ahead of time that he was going to.
Be It was so crazy.
We met on my Space and wow, yeah, yeah, it was supposed to be like a one night Stan. I was like, I'm out of this relationship. I'm just gonna
have a fuck buddy, and that did not work. We like were saying we loved each other with the night days of meeting each other, and yeah, he's he's been wonderful, especially as I, like my parents went through really traumatic divorce and it really shaped the way that I thought about marriage and men in particular, and I kind of thought at the time that like, I'm never going to get married, like fuck, men, men are trash, yuck, and yeah, we just divine alignment.
I met my person, So I mean I would imagine that like this journey and especially like you mentioned, like having a partner where you're exploring your sensuality and listening to your body and possibly stopping during sex. I mean, even like I said, have been you know, following you for a while and I know that you guys are married, but then chose to live separate from one another and like kind of figure out who you guys are as individuals outside of you know, coexisting in one space together.
How did that conversation go because I feel like, you know, we were talking about we had this woman on her name's Aaron Claire Jones, and she's a human design expert, and she was discussing how certain designs like that were really meant to you know, live in separate like half separate rooms, half separate spaces, like it's really healthy for people to exist and have their own spaces. This is even more, you know, this is even deeper than that.
This is actually like I love you, but I'm actually going to move out, and i still want to be married to you, but I'm actually going to go do my own thing for a while.
That was very interesting.
How did I think? That's a two part question. How did you arrive to that? And then how did that conversation go?
Yeah, I mean that was really tricky and complex. I was actually visiting LA and I'm from this area originally. I was previously living in Portland, Oregon. Hated almost every second of it. I just did not resonate with the land, or the people or the culture there. And I was visiting LA for the first time since I moved to Portland, and I felt such a like like I just felt it in my heart, like oh my god, I'm supposed to be here like this is home, Like this is
what home is supposed to feel like. And so during that trip, I was just like, fuck, what would it be like if I like moved to LA And it was so weird. I started looking at apartments, but I wasn't thinking about like, oh, Jonathan's gonna come with me and my dog. It was like it would be so cute if I got a studio and I'm like, whoa, where is this coming from? Then I visited California again and I felt that feeling even more so of just like you need to be here. You need to get
the fuck out of Portland. It's not good for you. And my partner was not really interested in moving to LA. I wouldn't say that he was like in love with Portland, but he was definitely not wanting to move back to California. So I just sort of broached the subject of like what would it look like? First, I said, what would it look like if like I spent three months in LA?
You know, like maybe I would visit you, but you know, I'm here all the time for work, it makes sense, like, you know, maybe we could save a little bit of money if I'm like spend like stretches of time there on airfare or whatever. And I was like, yeah, that's kind of a cool idea. Sure we could do that. And then I started getting like really really clear messages that like you are supposed to move here, and you were supposed to move here without your partner, like that's
what you're supposed to do. And I remember having that conversation with Jonathan and he was like, so you're breaking up with me, and I'm like, I don't know what this means. I'm just like getting these messages and I feel like I am supposed to be apart from you. And I think the context behind this is that we got married when I was super young. I was twenty
when we got married. I was nineteen when we met, and I never had the experience of living alone, like I lived with my mom and then my sister, and then I met Jonathan and I moved in with him, so I didn't and I didn't go to college or have the dorm experience, so I never had that experience of being by myself. And then also with us being together for so long I was with him twenty four to seven, there wasn't a lot of time for me
to find my own rhythm. And I mean, our relationship is pretty pretty flexible, and I feel like we've created a lot of space for each of us to grow individually. But there was something that was really calling to me about, like what is it like for you to be by yourself? Like who are you outside of this relationship? Like who are you when you're not a wife, And who are you if you're just like by yourself?
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You know, there's no model for this. Like anytime that I would google this on the internet, they'd be like, oh, so you're separating and the separation leads to divorce. I'm like, no, no, no, that's not it, because like I'm really happy in my relationship and there's nothing wrong and I really want to be with you. I just want to live apart from you for a stretch of time. So we sort of figured it out kind of on our own that we were going to do this thing, and it was going
to confuse a lot of people. Like my mom was freaking out. She's like, oh, so you guys are getting a divorce and you're just not telling me. And I'm like, no, I promise you everything good. And yeah, he stayed in Oregon and I moved down to LA for a year. COVID happened two weeks after.
Oh my god, damn. If there was ever a sign right wow, now.
Sit Yeah, that was I mean, first of all, the fact that COVID happened two weeks after I got here, Like if I hadn't moved then I would have gotten stuck in Portland. Yes, so I was very grateful, Like seriously, my ancestors and my spare guides were with me, like get the fuck out. So yeah, So we lived apart for a year, about a year. He moved back a year ago. So now we're together again.
Did you guys stay apart the entire time?
We had to, at least for the first five months because of COVID, like everything was shut down. So originally we had said, we're going to see each other twice a month, so I'll fly up to Oregon and then you'll fly down to LA and we'll get a chance to see each other. But that didn't happen, of course, because of COVID, and then like later, as you know, COVID started to not surge. We saw each other I
think like four times throughout that that year. But yeah, it was not at all what we planned, not at all what we planned, And I think that was for the best because it really allowed me to sit my ass down and like literally be alone. Because when I moved here, I was like, sweet, I'm gonna be around my friends, I'm gonna do work stuff, I'm gonna be partying.
And He's like, Nope, no you're not. Yeah, I mean I would think, so, I would think. I mean, I know you got you had mentioned that you guys are open and you guys have your own individental you do that separately. And obviously with COVID happening and that, I mean dating and all those things was oh not really terrible and non existent we had and so there was really like you really couldn't even entertain that, like you really had to. Yeah, And because this was not necessarily
his choice, what was that like for him? Like this he did? He? I mean, I'm assuming I think whenever you choose yourself, it's never a bad choice, right, Like that's right. But I think and I don't want to say that he didn't choose himself, but you kind of helped him do that, Yeah, made him have to kind of do that.
Yeah, I sort of forced him into choosing himself. I mean, he wasn't like adamantly against it. He was concerned. And I was also concerned because I didn't know what the fuck we were doing. I just was sort of being guided by intuition with it. But in the end, when we were really starting to like pack up things and like formulate the plan of where he was going to go, he was really excited. He was like, yeah, you know,
I've been with you for thirteen fourteen years. I kind of forgot who I am outside of this relationship, and I think that this is going to be really good for me to focus on myself as well. And so and I love that about him. You know, he got into therapy and was like seeing his therapist once a week and he was healing his body and creating relationships with friends and really analyzing you know, his own party
and being like white supremacist, patriarchal capitalist society. My partner is white, so like that that is a really I'm glad that we took that time because it really allowed us both to work on ourselves, and then when we came together, it was like a totally different relationship. You know, Like I felt, I felt like I was one hundred percent strong in who I was, what I wanted, what I needed, and I felt that he also came to me with that, and then we just decided, let's create
something new from this from this place. So it was it was really wonderful. That was really great.
I know that you've also talked about being an ace, and I'd never heard that term before. Oh really No, I'd never heard that term before. I've learned so much on this in this space, honestly, And you did this reel which I thought was really it shed a lot of perspective on it. And if you guys don't know what an ass I mean, AX, someone who's someone asexual. And you were like, what, like how people view someone
who says they're asexual? And it's like you're like all frumpy and shit and you're not like sexy and you look let you know, and and then and then you came out you're like, you know, sensual and beautiful, and I think that I yes, I've never met anyone that identifies as would you be identifying as that?
Or yeah, it's a sexual identity or a sexual orientation I guess. Yeah.
Can you explain to our listeners a little bit more about what that means and how you came to this as well.
Yeah, So to be ace is to be someone who is asexual, and so an asexual person is a person that is on a spectrum of sexuality. I think our culture has taught us that a person who is a sexual means that they do not have sex, they hate
having sex. They're literally sex repulsed, and there are ACE folks who have that experience, but there are also ACE people like myself who have sex, like having sex, but don't approach sex from this space that I think culture and media has taught us that like, you get horny and you have sex immediately, Like for me, I don't
really get horny. I mean, and I have a desire for sex, but it doesn't look like let's rip my clothes off and go like it's there's a nuance to my sexuality as opposed to being like let's fucking get it on, or like I don't want to have sex at all. So I think that's like the most important thing that I want to stress about. A sexuality is for so long people have seen it as it's an either black or white thing, and it's actually a spectrum, and a lot of people fall on that spectrum, a
lot more people than I think people realize. I think there was at least when I was coming up into the sex education space, it was like only one percent of people are asexual, and I don't think that that's true. I think there's actually a lot more people, especially if you see it within that spectrum. And yeah, I identify as someone who is demi sexual. Y'all can look that up. Basically, a demi sexual is someone who can only have sex with people if they have an emotional connection with them.
So casual sex is not for me. Learn that the hard way. I try to have a ho phase. It did not work, and my journey to that was a little difficult because I think, you know, we're talking a little bit earlier about sexual liberation is like freedom fuck all the time. I get to fuck and have all the sex that I want. And I definitely fell underneath that pressure of like, Okay, I'm grown. That means I can have all the sex that I want and I
need to be having sex all the time. And so this idea that I could be asexual was like no, no, no, that's like that's that's not liberation. In my work, I have now seen that sexual liberation is not about how much sex you have, or who you have sex with, or how many times you have sex in a day, but it's really about you being at peace with who you are as a sexual being, no matter where you
are that day. Like if that is like I don't want sex thinking about sex, my sexuality is a furthest thing from my mind, like that is sexual liberation because you were honoring who you are as a sexual being. I would much rather be someone who is able to say, like, I'm not interested in sex right now, then override my body and continue this this cycle of harming myself and violating my body, which is going to disassociate me from it.
So there's a lot in there. I don't know if I answer your question, no.
No, you did?
You know?
I think that people there's so many misconceptions around women who are sex educators or are leading the way for women to kind of tap into their sensuality or sexuality, and they assume that you just must be out here fucking you know.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to come out as a sexual, to like really smash this perception because people are always thinking that I'm having orgies all the time, and I'm like.
I wish.
I mean, I've got shit to do, man, I don't have time for orgies and stuff like that.
So, yeah, it was it.
Important that your partner also identify as that or is it? No?
I mean I think it can be difficult. I've certainly know that, and even when I came out as ACE. People were sort of telling their horror stories of like they came out to ACE or came out as ACE to their partner of three years and then they broke up with them. So there's a lot of asphobia out there. Like people just hear that word and they're like, oh, so you're never going to have sex with me again. Then well it's like, bro, I've been with you for
three years. We've been having the same ship, Like it's literally the same. I'm just identifying as something. So yeah, there's a lot of misconceptions about what a sexuality is, and I think that's one of the reasons why. And also, you know, we put a lot of pressure on a relationship to have sex, Like the whole point of being in a romantic relationship is to have sex with someone, which,
you know, if that's your thing, that's your thing. But there's so many different aspects to my relationship that isn't sexual. Like I'm with my partner not because of the sex that we have, but because he's a really good person and he's one of my best friends, and he is a caregiver. Also he allows me to caretake him, Like we have a dynamic that isn't solely based on the sex we have, And I feel very lucky that you know me coming out as ACE. My partner didn't run
for the hills. He was more like, that makes a lot of sense because you know, based on how long we've been together and based on the way that you approach sex in our relationship, it would make sense that you're ACE because I think one of the easiest ways that I can explain it is that my sexuality isn't
easily accessible, Like it's not. And I think that's one of the things that trips people up about who I am because and I've experienced this actually when I was dating in our open relationship, folks would know who I was because I have a presence online and so they're like, ooh, having sex educator, so we're going to have all the sex with all the sex toys, and they would get really disappointed.
Oh my god, I just had a visual of you like going up going to someone's house, yeah, like laying everything out and like wanting to impress you and you being like nope, nope, yeah, Like it literally a really great example.
It took me three weeks, which may not be a lot for folks but it took me three weeks to have sex with my partner when we first started dating. And I started dating someone outside of my partner when we were in an open relationship, and she was like, yeah, so we've been dating for like two weeks, why haven't
you like had sex with me? And I'm like, girl, I mean that's who I am, Like it takes me a little bit, so like, that's something that I feel is really frustrating about being a sex educator or just like being in the space where I'm talking about sex a lot, people automatically assume that your sexuality is going to be accessible to me, and all I have to
do is like sweet talk. You buy you some dinner, tell you that you're beautiful, and your legs will open, and it's like, no, you got to work for it, and I will make you work for it, especially if I get that energy from you.
Do you think that are you identifying as ACE or even people that are identify as as that are that are like farther on the spectrum of like being repulsed by sex, Is it rooted in sexual trauma?
I think it can be, and I think it also doesn't have to be. I think one of the things that happens with ACE folks and asexuality in general, is our minds immediately go to what happened to you to make you like that, Like sex is natural. Everybody should have sex, So if you're not having it and you're not desiring it, that means that there's something wrong with you. I just illustrated what it means to be in a compulsory sexuality type of world, which is this belief that
everybody should be sexual. Like from standard, everyone should be sexual, everyone should be horny having all kinds of sex, and if you're not, then there's something wrong with you. And with a sexuality, we are creating a different way of seeing our sex lives and our sexual selves as being like we're a lot more nuanced than that, Like it's not there are many different types to be sexual, just
as there are many different types to be human. And so I don't like to touch It's not that I don't like to touch it, it's more like I don't want to accentuate that. Like, yes, a sexuality comes from people who have been sexually traumatized, because I'm sure people could listen to my story and be like, well, that's the reason why that you know she's Ace is because you know she had sexual violation or whatever, and that
could be the case maybe or not. Either way, I'm Ace, and that's like, there's nothing wrong with that, you know.
I think I'm Ace sometimes.
Can I recommend a book?
I think I'm sometimes Ace? Yeah?
Can I recommend it?
Burt? You? I am. There are times where I'm like, I don't, I'm going.
I don't really get Yeah, I mean one of the A.
And I'm not like always sexually accessible. I mean, I don't know if that's I don't know if that's a yeah, characteristic of Ace. I think that's just a characteristic of colectiveness.
I think. So, I mean, I can be.
Selective and then there's times where you know, I'm not, you know, like in Costa Rica, but that.
Was a selection that was selective. They're like, we selected, we did.
There's actually a great book that I'd love to recommend to folks. It's called Ace. It's by Angela Chin. Highly recommend it. Y'all should pick it up to. It's not just a book for people who are on the A spectrum.
It's literally a really great book that interrogates are sex obsessed and also sex negative culture that we live in and the ways that these messages that are put upon us about like you need to be sexy and you need to be sexual, and this is the type of sex you need to have and blah blah blah, Like it really just goes deep into like that's not the reality for everyone, and like why are we putting this presumption onto people that they should be sexual when they
don't have to be if they don't want to be, you know, So I recommend that book.
Yeah, no, I think there's so many women I'm sure listening right now that are like, oh shit, this sounds like me, you know, and like and there there is so much shame attached to, you know, not wanting to have sex, like what's wrong with your libido? Like are you are?
You?
Are your diets fucked up? You're not eating enough, You're not doing this, You're not doing that, Like you're not masturbating enough, You're not you know, there's all these different things that society puts, especially on women. Of course, I think men to experience this as well too. Oh yeah, And honestly it must be even it might almost be harder for men because men are like.
Supposed to be like come get it, come take it, like like the aggressor in the bedroom, and and I mean I'm guilty of it. I dated someone who was not very sexual and I literally was like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Yeah?
I literally was like, why are you forty four and you're not trying to fuck me? Like it didn't add up in my mind. But even having this conversation, it's really making me like to be mindful of like your actual wants is definitely a process, you know what I mean, Like what are my actual wants versus am I doing? Am I is it performative? Like am I showing up and wanting to have sex because it gives me validation?
You know, if you have sex with me, then I feel validated in a relationship that you're attracted to me and that a relationship is going well. But like even for me, like I know, I have a lot of confused thoughts of sex. We talk about this shit all the time, like am I having sex because I'm empowered? I'm having sex because I'm traumatized and filling a void? You know, it's a constant like I'm having to check
in with myself. But the truth is is that I've been clouded with so many ideas and thoughts and beliefs that is going to take a very long time to get to the bottom of that. Like even the other day, I was having sex with like my fuck buddy, and I thought I was gonna leave after he had sex, and he didn't. He like laid in the bed and fell asleep, and I was like so confused. And then I was like, is something wrong with me? Like why am I such a cold bitch? I'm like he could
lay there, but he was snoring. It was irritating me, and I was like, oh, but also I was having all I was high, but I was like having all these thoughts like am I having Like do.
I need to have a like deeper connection to this man? No, he's nice. Sex is good.
I was literally laying in the bed while he was snoring. I was pissed because I couldn't go to sleep. But then I was like literally digging deep into my feelings over me having sex, like.
It was good, sex was good? Did I have to do that? Can I have just took in my ass to sleep?
Could it?
But he did it?
Like I was really weighing back and forth, But this has been my experience in my sexuality for a long time, Like even in college being in my super whole hoole phase, just fucking I knew that something was wrong. I was like, there was a time I was like, bitch, why are you doing this? Like and I'm like, and I asked my aunt, like, do you think.
I should get hypnotized? You think I'm like, I think that's what trauma I need to work through.
But it's been a constant inner conversation about whether or not I'm having sex genuinely because I want to or you know what I mean. It's just such a clouded voice because obviously, like my body at some point enjoys it and you climax, I hope, But like, also, is it like a feel like an autopilot feeling of like oh this plus this equals good, you know what I mean? But like, is it something I actually need to have or do? I probably could probably pleasure myself and then be good.
Yeah, coming to those realizations of like do I actually want to do this or is this something that I've been told I should do? And is this something that I actually like or is this something that I've been told I should like? Like that just like can blow your mind. This is making me think of a story
of a client that I worked with recently. We worked with each other a few years ago, and then we worked with each other again this most recent time this year, and the first time we worked together, she came to me and was like, I'm in my mid twenties. I am not having sex. I don't desire sex, but I want to because when I was in college, I was fucking all the time, I was having one night stance, I was having a gay time. It was so much fun.
So I want to get back to her. And so, you know, the work that we did together was just exploring, like what was going on for you during that time, and perhaps you're a little bit more confident in your body, and you know, you're younger, so you didn't maybe have as many responsibilities. So we were just exploring that. And then fast forward to like maybe five years later, we worked together again and she kind of came back with
the same thing, like, I am not having sex. I don't know how I just sort of fell off from you know, the work that we did. I want to get that part of me back. And long story short, we realized that she was actually asexual, and this version of herself that she was trying to get back to was a farce. It was an illusion. She wasn't having sex with these people because she wanted to. She wasn't having sex with these people because her body had a
desire to have sex with these people. She was having sex because that's what society told her to do, that's what her culture in college told her to do, and also because for her, it was about the pleasure or the physicality of sex. It was like, if you fuck me, you love me. If you fuck me, it means that I am worthy. If you fuck me, you're validating me and making me feel like I am seen and heard
and safe and love. And it was quite an interesting experience to watch her get to that point because again, she was really wanting to get back to that person, that version of her, but it wasn't even a real version. And it took her actually sitting with herself and asking yourself these questions, Wait, do I want to have sex? Do I like having sex? Is this something that I want? And the answer to those questions were, like, it varied, It depended on the time, it depended on the person,
Like there were so many different things. So I encourage everyone to do that deep work of figuring out like is this desire or is this a should that is being put upon me? And that's where that body literacy really can come in with sensuality, like your body will know or your body will tell you what it feels like to you, like sort of have that enthusiastic yes, you know.
It almost sounds like she was much. It was she was way more able in her youth to disassociate from herself and that she had done the work actually, and she should be proud that now her body is like, bitch, we can't fake it no more.
Sorry, That's what I told her. I was like, listen, your body is just like, okay, we're done.
We can we can't do this. We've you did. You met with Evion and we did the work. I'm sorry, girl.
We're not horny any it's not happening. We don't want we don't want that.
We're good.
Yeah.
And for her, you know, it's not like I don't want to have sex ever, but she has redefined what sex means for her, and she's redefined what sex means for her on the terms of like what does my body want? And typically for her, sex isn't about like penetration. It's like I want you to, you know, make out with me naked or something like that. Like that to me is enough stimulation and it feels really good for me,
you know. And thankfully she's with the partner that is taking that ride with her and being like cool, let's explore different ways to have sex, you know. And again that's why it's it's so important that if you're on the sexual liberation journey, you're choosing partners that are able to go with you on that journey and not shamey for whatever you're going through.
I'm sure you've probably watched this sex love Goop. Have you watched it?
I haven't. I've heard of it.
Yeah, it was really it was really interesting. There was this couple that came on and it was actually a black married couple and they're happy, they have this great life. But he is super like gungh, like he wants to fuck and she he said, like she's a prude and like she's not really like, yeah, she's a prude and for lack of a better word, and more less experienced than him. And through the work with through the work with one of these her name was actually, what's her name? Ship?
What's her name? Do you remember?
You said it? Like fun?
I know, how the fuck don't I know her name yet? And Jaya Jaya giant. She They discovered that actually that well, their sex languages are different, Like he is one of those like he's stimulated by just like titties and ass like those are the things that like get him going, whereas for her, she's way more into like the anticipation of touch and like the build up and like. And what they found was that actually she's a lot more sexually advanced than him in her because she's really into
the foreplay. She wants to experiment with different things before just having penetrative sex. And I think a lot of times that part of sex is overlooked. We're supposed to just like, oh, I'm what this means, we must have sex like insert here. Yeah, like a guy sees his dick is hard, Oh I must be horny, Oh my pussy's wet. Oh I guess I should have sex now. And there's no lead up. There's no anticipation I know for me, like that's something that is important to me,
Like I'm I need a lead up. I can do both, but when I have the best sex of my life, it usually involves a lot of foreplay and like I need the lead up. I need like saying I need sensuality, and sometimes I don't even have to have the sex. I usually will, but but I just think that it's so true that finding the right partner and also like if you do have a partner that you love and everything else is good with that, that piece is missing exploring what that means, meeting with someone that can kind
of help guide you. When I saw that, when I watched that show, I was like, how many relationships have ended because they didn't know that something like this existed right that they or they were embarrassed to ask, they were embarrassed to talk about it. And just knowing that, like thankfully for social media and I guess Netflix and Gwyneth Paltrow, I guess I don't know that, like these type of things can be resolved, and sometimes they can't, and that's okay too.
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's one of the beauties of this era that we're in, you know, like we're seeing a lot more conversations about sex, and we're really normalizing the issues come up with sex. I think for a while it was like everyone's having the best sex except for me. I'm the one that has the problems, and it's like, no, all of us are sort of fumbling around and trying to find our way. And that's very normal, you know, It's okay for us to still not really
know what we're doing. And in this case with this guy who is just like penetration ass tits, let's go. I mean, it makes a lot of sense because that's the culture we live in. We live in a very pornographic, male, gayzy world, and I think a lot of us have grown up thinking that the way to have liberated sex is to fuck like a man, you know, to fuck like a man, where it's like you see something visual, you get immediately wet or hard, and you just like
go for That's not the case. That's one aspect and one way to be in your sexuality. But that's not that's not the case for everyone, you know.
Yeah, for sure, I'm so glad that you came and like broke this down for us. I think this is going to resonate with a lot of women. It definitely resonates with me. I definitely have to like have deeper talks with myself, get more in tune with my body. I know, I always see you online doing your sensual dancing.
I'd like to essential dance in the mirror too. But there is something deeply sexy and like intimate about gazing at yourself in an intimate space without anyone else being there to validate you, you know, just like Damn.
Damn, I look good today. Damn, this feels sexy on my body.
Damn this like just moving feels good, like just being in your body, like you said, Like, we just came back from Costa Rica and we did like a self devotion, like self worship, like this sensual circle with the girls, and it was so fun and beautiful and like you know, we just danced in a circle and like gave thanks to the elements and to our ancestors. And it's just like reminded me how much as women, like the divine
feminine is sensual. It's a part of our identity, and like it's been such for so long, like under the gaze of men, under the standards of men, that we forget that, like it's our like our birthright and like a part of our experience to explore that even without being sexual or having intercourse in it.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, can I plug something?
Yeah, of course.
So we're talking about sensuality here, and I should have brought you both copies of my book. But I have a book. It's called Sensual Self, and it is a guided journal that helps you with practices and exercises and prompts to basically do just that, like connect with your body, figure out the messages that your body is sending you, figuring out like what does pleasure feel like in my body?
Really starting to create some boundaries and also some curiosity about, yeah, the things that your body needs in order to feel safe and have an enthusiastic yes experience. So I wrote this book because I hear stories like this so often, like, Okay, I know I need to connect to my body. I don't really know what the voice of desire in my body feels like because I've been overwriting it for so long, and you know, there's all these different cultural voices and
messages that are telling me what I should want. But what do I want? Yeah, that's why I wrote my book, Sensual Self.
I need that book.
I need that book, and you know also it just like it dawned on me, like during this conversation when you're talking about you know, this voice telling you you needed to move, and like this is when you honoring that. I just think that just sitting with yourself and being with your body oftentimes will clear all of the Like your intuition will be much sharper because you've sat in your body and you're not trying to add other people
and other shit into it. You're really just being mindful a of how you feel in your body, and that's like even outside of sex, you know. And then when you do get clear messages from spirit, you're like, oh, I can move on that because I'm conscious that this is what these are the voices that I need to
listen to. And I think so often, like as women, that we let that part of us like fall at the wayside because we're constantly being told how we're supposed to be and what we're supposed to be, and then our voice, our inner voice, the voices of our ancestors, the ones we're supposed to listen to kind.
Of like go mute.
Yeah.
So it's like being mindful, you know, like in your body really is the segue to just be mindful in your life in general.
Yeah, yeah, it's so much. It's so much deeper than just sex, like like you said, for sure.
Yeah, well, is there any I'm really glad you came finally after we stopped you for four years. Is there anything else any you want to tell our listeners where they can find you?
Yeah? I have a podcast as well. It's called Central Self. It is also the title of my book, Central Self, which you can find anywhere that you get books. You can also find me on Instagram. That's where I'm like the most visible these days. And yeah, join my newsletter avan Whitney dot com slash newsletter trying to get people over there.
Yeah, I feel get off the igs.
Yes, it's so hard, so.
Hard over there.
Before we started, actually I forgot. Evian pulled a car card and the card was the World Card. So I'm just going to read to you guys what that means a little bit. Let's see if it pertains to our conversation.
It usually does, because we're witches.
When the World Card appears in a Tara reading, you are glowing with a sense of wholeness, achievement, fulfillment, and completion a long term project, period of study, relationship, or career has come full circle and you are now reveling in the sense of closure and accomplishment. This card could represent graduation, a marriage, the birth of a child, or achieving a long held dream or aspiration. You have finally
accomplished your goal or purpose. Everything has come together and you're in the right place, doing the right thing, achieving what you have envisioned.
You feel whole and complete.
Hmmmm, a beautiful card. I love the world. Very happy to pick that one today.
It invites you to reflect on your journey, honor your achievements, and tune into your spiritual lessons. Celebrate your success and bask and the joy of having brought your goals to fruition.
Wow.
Well, thank you and giving me an impromptu reading.
Oh you're welcome. I just went on bid taro dot com. It's not Yeah, I'm working on my tarot skills before we close out. I know you mentioned that you may have a whoy for us whose stories.
Yeah, it's kind of short. So I have a puppy, and I got a puppy two months ago and she has been a delight and a terror, and so much of my life has been taken up by her. And because of that. Me and my partner haven't been having sex because it's really difficult to have sex when you have a puppy. We're trying to create trainer, but you know that's.
A long, long cross fortress. Oh my god, you know you have I mean, well, I have a baby, which is basically crate training is like basically like night training with babies, not night it is. And there's screaming in the room.
I'm gonna your child to a puppies I can, We're going to come through.
It's so awful.
Like one time we were trying to have sex and the puppy sleeps with us in our bed, and you know, we're like being really quiet and then like all of a sudden, we start getting really into it, but we're still really quiet, and she just comes over to us and starts licking our faces and we're like, this is not And then I did a google and I was like, why did my dog come up to me for you know, after we were or while we were having sex. And apparently dogs can like smell your hormones and stuff, so
she smelled that we were getting excited. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is not gonna work. So yeah, me and my partner. We've just been like, fuck, how are we gonna ever have sex again? Because she's I think she's no longer a puppy by the time, she's like a year and a half, so we've got a long way to go. And yeah, last night we're like, fuck it, we're having
sex right now. We just like put her crate in the bedroom and then like gave her this like fish hide situation and she was like chewing and smacking on this bone while we were like getting it in. And it was great. I loved every second of it. We both like had an orgasm way too fast because it had been way too long, but it was so great. I was so stoned and it was amazing.
This sounds like parenthood.
It sounds like how I have I have had to have sex with my daughters in the house.
Fuck, it's so hard. I have so much respect for parents because I will not have babies in my lifetime. I've decided that. And my God, my dog is giving me a lot of energy.
Well, good thing. The only you know, the good thing about having a dog is that you can legally put them in a cage.
You can put them in a cage. True with a fish hide.
If I would I in a cage.
In her room, I had don't come out. Shut up, mom has some ship to do.
Wouldn't blow over so easily now, Oh my god, Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was such a tree. You guys know where to find us. Good Mom's Bad Choices on Instagram. Well, Good Mom's Underscore Bad Choices on Instagram. Make sure you check out our Patreon. We have tons of bonus content over there. We have some wore stories that we've updated recently that you definitely don't want to miss out on. Me and Mila had a shared group or story together. We say group. Well,
it's me and you. We're the group plus one. Yeah, three, you know Destiny shild like after everyone left Good Moms by Wait, actually it's patreon dot com backslash Good Mom's Bad Choices. I'll link everything in our episode description. Make sure you check out our merge. We've dropped some really cute ship over the last few months, and it's real, real cute. Hopefully it's still there. I don't know by the time you listen to this, and I might all be gone. Anyway, I love you and have a good week hie